Welcome to Headroom, where we discuss all things essential to mental health and well being. I'm your host, Jim Owens, a licensed professional counselor at Lansing Community College. I'd like to emphasize that while this podcast does not contain medical advice, it does introduce you to some phenomenal people who have incredible ideas for you and your life. Having said that, let's get into the Headroom and begin today's conversation with Rhonda Miller, our Dean of Student Affairs. Hey, Rhonda, thanks for joining me today.

Thanks for having me.

So I always like to start these out with asking you to just let us. Can we get to know you a little bit? So tell us a little bit about maybe where you grew up and give us a window into what life was like when you were a kid. What did you like doing when you were a kid?

I grew up in Lansing. I grew up on the west side. I grew up with two older brothers. I didn't have any sisters. And so my brothers played football. I wanted to play football. My brothers played basketball. I wanted to play basketball. One cool fact about me is I walk very fast, and that is because my brothers were always trying to leave me behind. And so I learned how to walk fast to keep up with them.

They would. Yeah, brothers would try to do. They'd just try to leave little sister in the dust.

Absolutely.

But you were fighting to stick up, keep up with them.

Yep.

I said stick up. Maybe because there's a little psychology right there I like. Maybe that's what we call a parapraxis, people. You can look that up. Did you ever have to stick up for yourself having two big brothers? Were they protectors or were they kind of.

There's.

Well, you don't have to say. This is going on the record.

Yeah. They're seven and four years older than me. And one picked on me a lot, though, one who was four years older than me. My other brother, he was more of a protector. But there were times when I would tell my dad they did something to me, and then they would get punished and they really hadn't done anything.

So you had your ways of kind of evening the field out a little bit, like leveling the field, I should say. So what about life as a kid? What was fun for you when you were a kid?

Oh, I loved being outside, riding my bike. I had a couple friends that lived in the neighborhood, and we just hang out, play kick the can at night or collect cards. Trading cards. Back in the 70s.

Yeah. Baseball cards, Football cards.

Actually, no, they were Charlie's angel trading Cards. Charlie's Angels.

I didn't even know. I know the show. I didn't know there were trading cards.

Yes, yes. Actually, Lisa Alexander, her and myself and three or four other girls, we used to go the same elementary school and we would trade our cards.

Oh, my goodness, yes. Does anybody still have their cards?

I bet one of our friends probably does. I don't.

Okay.

Yeah.

Well, let's move up a little bit from childhood to high school, and then we're going to go to college.

Okay.

So high school. You're graduating high school. If you were like me, you were like, I'm pretty well ready for the world. Let's go. But I don't know if I was as skilled really as I thought I was. So I'm just curious, how skilled were you in managing yourself as a human being when you. Right around the age of high school, as you were, you know, getting ready to take off into the world? And I use the word skill because I want to imply to people that this is a skill we develop over time.

Right. I think I had good time management skills because as long as I went home after school and did my homework and, you know, washed dishes or whatever my chores were, then I could go out and play with my friends or be on the phone, whatever it was at that time in my life. And so I think I knew I had to get done what I needed to get done, and then I could play. So that's kind of how I look at my life as a teenager. Although it doesn't help that when you're a teen, you're hormonal. So I'm sure I was all over the place. My parents probably wanted to put me out, but in school, I just. I mean, I wasn't late to school.

I see.

I was where I needed to be when I needed to be there.

Well, you were. I would say you're describing a young person who's very disciplined.

Yeah. Which is surprising.

Well, is it?

Well, I think so for me.

No, I know that's what you mean. Not in relation to teenagers, but just for yourself. You're surprised.

Yeah.

To be able to say that about yourself.

Yeah, I. Well. And I grew up in an era where there was a line between adults and children. And so, like, when I was in elementary school, we could still get paddled, and so we had a healthy fear of adults. And so when we were supposed to be in class, we were in class. And that's how I lived my life, that era, too.

I don't know. We're probably not that far apart in age. Actually, I was a kid in the 70s too, but that era, if I remember correctly, kids didn't sit at the parents table for meals when there was family stuff. Right. But also we weren't in their social circle when they were having conversations. Am I right? Yeah. This was just like, you would look at the parents in the circle talking to other parents and you were thinking, I got to go in and ask a question. But this is going to be difficult to get in and get it right.

Yeah. I don't know if it was my parents or one of my aunts would say, children are to be seen and not heard. So, like, yeah, there was a real line. You didn't cross it. So when adults were having conversations, we were not part of those conversations.

And not in a disparaging way, but this is just painting a little bit of a picture of what life was like back then. Parents weren't friends with their kids.

Oh, no.

Is that right?

Nope. I told my kids that I'm not your friend. I'm not your equal.

Yeah, yeah. I say something similar to my son. I go, look, man, I love you. I'm your dad. You can only have one of those. You can have a lot of friends.

Yeah.

So you know, I love you, I'm friendly, we're friendly with each other. But I'm not going to fill that hole of friend for you. I'll help you get it filled. You know, that's my job really, as your dad. Make sure you have the social relationships that you need. Let he learn social skills and stuff. But like, you, sorry, man, I'm not gonna be your. I'm not your friend. Right.

Yeah. I've seen a lot of those go south where parents try to be their children's friends.

Yeah, yeah. If the friendship role gets in front of the parent role, there's probably a way to do it better than I'm doing. I'm sure. But balancing those things can be difficult. So after high school, was it like a foregone conclusion that you were going to go to college? Was this something that was for sure?

It was for sure. I. I grew up in a household where that was the expectation. It wasn't an ask like, do you want to go to college? It was, where are you going to go to college? So I never knew I had an option to not go. And was I ready for college? No. There was no discipline or no real boundaries, and so I exploited them. So, yeah.

So, well, I was gonna say go ahead, but so tell me. So in Lansing, it was expected you were gonna go to college. Maybe you could tell us where you went. But did you want to do something other than college or. You weren't even entertaining.

I don't think I ever entertained anything because that was the way I was raised. So I knew I was gonna go to college. But when I was little, like 6, 7, 8, I wanted to be a flight attendant. I wanted to be a cashier at Meijer. Those are the two. And a football player. I wanted to play football. Yeah. So back then, I might have had alternate plans, but once I got older, it just wasn't. There weren't any options.

It was an expectation you were going to go. I think that's a familiar experience for a lot of people, and maybe we don't even question it until we're already in the middle of our college career thinking, I could have done something different.

Yeah.

So what was it like? You say, I'm not. It sounds like you were probably academically prepared with your discipline and schoolwork and stuff like that. But maybe you're saying in other ways you weren't prepared. Did you go off to college, or did you stay in town and go to school?

Well, I went to msu, but I lived on campus. And I remember the first two weeks of college, I was in my dorm room at midnight because it was programmed. That was my curfew when I was in high school.

Oh, yeah.

And then after a while, like, what am I doing?

I don't have to.

I don't even need to come back if I don't want to. Yeah. So I basically go into a larger institution, realized they're not going to know if I'm not in class, like in high school.

Yeah.

So I just didn't go to class very often.

Yeah.

Wow. Yeah. Yeah. I was a less than stellar student.

Okay.

Yeah.

We can get into that a little bit. Right. Like, because I think what you're describing is you were. You were pretty much disciplined as a student in high school, and then when you got all that freedom in college.

Yep.

And it's not just college. It's just you're out from home, you're living in a new place, even though it's across town. It's. I mean, MSU is kind of like its own little city over there.

Right.

And nobody was watching where Rhonda was. You. She could go wherever she wanted to go, and she took advantage of those liberties for the first time.

Yes. Freedom.

Yeah, freedom. Big time.

Yeah.

So how did that bode well or not so well for you? Like, I Do want to get to this question about. Was there a point at which you almost didn't graduate from college?

Absolutely.

You want to tell us about that?

So with all of my newfound freedom, I had a boyfriend and I ended up. I got pregnant my junior year in college, and my grades were in the crapper, so I should have been on my way out anyway, but I think I dropped out halfway through the academic year and then had a baby and then realized once she was maybe a year and a half. Like, this is not what I want for my life. I don't want to be a statistic. I don't want to be a single black mother. And so I decided I wanted to go back to school because I wanted to be a role model. I wanted her to look up to me, at least to see that I could complete college. And I had to beg to get back into MSU because my grades were so crappy. But once I did go back, man, my grades were off the chart, like, I was killing it. But because my GPA was so low, I never recovered.

Yeah, not really, right?

I don't know.

It's going on your permanent transcript.

Yeah. Nobody wants to look at my. My undergraduate GPA wasn't good.

Yeah. Wow, that's pretty powerful. And this was like a major. I mean, I know I'm understating it, but a major life altering.

Oh, my gosh. Yeah. I mean, and crazy is I have postpartum depression. I was 21, and I didn't know it wasn't as widely talked about. And I just remember crying all the time and just. I was awful. My mother was very instrumental in helping me those first couple of weeks. And I know women suffer with that for months, and that's. I can't. That's awful.

Was it even talked about back then? Did you recognize it? You just knew looking back on it, you're like, that's what it was. It was possible, but at the time, you were just bereft of any energy

and hope and just, I think, you know, my mother, in her generation, they just called it the baby blues. Oh, you just got the blues. And so I didn't have a diagnosis for what I was feeling, but, yeah, it truly was postpartum depression.

Wow, that's remarkable that you were able to come out of that, or at least I don't know if you came out of that per se. But you said, you know what? I'm going to resolve to go back to school because I got some different motivation here. My daughter wanted to see a successful black Woman, not a statistic, as you said. And you have done that. You've now gone on through graduate school. What did you study in college, by the way? I don't know what you. What your background was.

I studied at msu. Family ecology.

Okay.

No, it was. I'm sorry. It was Family and Community Services. That was my undergrad. And then in grad school, it was family life education. So I knew that even growing up, like, in high school, I knew that I wanted to help people in some capacity. I wanted to work with people. And I initially thought I wanted to be a psychologist. Yeah.

I was like, you're right on the. You're right on the edge of being a counselor here.

Yeah. And I just. I remember taking a couple psych classes at msu, and I couldn't memorize the theorists, and that's such a big part of those programs, so I was like. So then I was like, oh, social work. And I thought I liked that. And then I remember being in a class and they were talking about, like, child welfare, and they had a story about a woman who put her baby in the microwave. And I think at that moment, I'm like, that's not the job for me either.

Yeah.

So I don't know how I got into Family Community Services. One thing is, I didn't like math. So I was looking through MSU's book to see what majors didn't require a lot of math. And then I got in that, and it was a really good fit for me at that time.

Wow, that's amazing. And here you are. I'm thinking of the connection now between having an education and family life. And as the dean of a division at a college, it's one big, huge family in a sense. Right. Like, it's family dynamics. There can be a little infighting. There can be some personalities. There can be a little reminding people. Respect for authority can be some things. Right. Some family dynamics.

Absolutely. Every day.

It's probably very good preparation, actually, for a dean, isn't it?

Yes.

I'm just putting this together right now because you think about a lot of times we just promote academics who are really good in a certain discipline. And not to be disparaging, but like chemistry. Let's say now you're a really good chemistry professor. You'll make a very good administrator. Well, not necessarily. Right. But I think your education probably helps you every day.

Yeah. If you think about life as an ecosystem, I mean, there's life. There's your work life, your home life, your health, your entertainment. I mean, there's just so many things that intersect. And if you understand that in your life, it really helps you with direction and progression.

Yeah, sure. Could you share more about that? Your worldview of these different compartmentalizations of the different aspects of your life? You look at your life in different domains a little bit. Right. And that helps you. I'm going to probably lean into this, like, balance in these areas or something. Is that right?

Yeah.

How did you arrive at that? Was that through your education? Like, yeah, I was just gonna get. Because they taught us the same stuff. But you really glommed onto that, like, you know what? This makes sense. I gotta compartmentalize my life a little bit, but go ahead.

I will say too, for anybody listening, is that when you find a field that you're passionate about, it doesn't feel like schoolwork, because you want to know more, you want to learn more. And that's why, at least at msu, that was such a great fit for me because I could. I could see it and I. I was living it. Especially the intersection of being a mom, being in college, having to find child care, trying to find a job after I graduated, trying to figure out housing and those types of things. It all made sense to me because I was living in that sphere.

Wow. Your lived experience also, I think, very well prepares you for the work we do in this division, because this is the student quote unquote that you were back then is very much the students that we leverage a lot of our support services for. Single parents returning adults trying to give hope to the hopeless.

Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I've worked with several young mothers here and just said, hey, I mean, if I could get through it, you can get through it. I mean, it's hard, but you can do it. And then I was also older adult returning to grad school, and that was hard because the majority of my classmates were so much younger than me, didn't have families. It's just a whole different lived experience.

Yeah. You feel really. I mean, mine was a little similar, but you feel a little out of sync with, like, their way of life at that point.

Right.

Basically, to put it in a nutshell. So what else about mental health? I mean, how do you manage that now? What's your approach to life, having been through some things?

Yeah.

How do you manage it? How do you manage your mental and emotional health?

Well, I've learned that you have to have self care. You can't just continuously take care of others and neglect yourself. And as a mother and also a daughter, you know, my Parents, as a grandmother, as an employee. I mean, everybody needs something from me. I mean, not to make that sound like I'm so important, but, you know, there's just certain elements, and it's. Somebody said, you can't pour from an empty cup. And so I realized that I have to stop and give myself time and attention so that I can pour into someone else. And so the things that I have done. And full disclosure, I suffer with depression, and I'm on medication, and I try to normalize that for people because I know I was very hesitant to take any kind of medication. Yeah. Because I'm like, I don't want to be a zombie. And it's not. That's not what it is. But it helps me persist and understanding that there are things that you can't control and understand. You have to learn how to let go of those things. Things. And that can be hard for somebody like me who I try to solve problems. And I think there's a lot of stigma. Not so much now, but back in the day with. With mental health. And I'm glad that we're in a time that it is widely discussed and there's lots of resources. I don't know that I was. I suffered with depression when I was younger, but I did recognize it as an adult.

Yeah.

Wow.

I'm glad you brought that up. Thank you for sharing that. Because I think people. Again, most people listening to this will not have met you, but they'll be aware of this position called the Dean of Students, and they'll think that person, whoever that is, was born with a silver spoon and just sailed right on through college and graduate school and rose up the ranks in this seamless linear transition. And probably just even every day is a sunny, happy day full of liberty, because you're not a middle manager, wink, wink, with pressure from both sides. But, you know, they just look at it, the status and all that that goes along with that.

Yeah.

But it's a. It's a job. It's life. It's work.

Yeah, it is. And I think you're right. People look at me or other deans or the VPs or the President and think, oh, you know, they had this really storybook life. And maybe some people did. I did not. And I think that's what helps me relate to students better. And so I try to engage with students as much as I can. Like, I'll come out into the star zone and talk to students about nothing or anything or, you know, something specific. But that is what fuels me. And if I can give them any wisdom or encouragement, then I've done, you know, most of my job. I mean, there's other parts of my job, but when you can. When somebody can relate to you and they can see themselves in you, and I definitely, you know, want other young black women to see me as a role model. But just in general, like, I try to be a great human, and I think in this world, we're lacking in that.

We need more. Yeah, yeah. We need more great humans. We need people making just a little bit more of an effort. Just a little more effort to be good.

Yes.

Yeah. That journey toward acknowledging depression as an experience that you're having and being willing to. I think for people, first, they have to let themselves experience the thing that they don't want to experience first. Because a lot of us will be having symptoms, and I'll just say anxiety and depression. Those are the two biggest ones. We'll be having those. That's nothing.

Right.

Let me just minimize that. That'll go away. Finally, we get to the point where we go, this is a thing.

Yeah.

And it's a thing. I'm gonna put a name to it. And now that means I'm probably gonna have to do something with it, about it, to it, for it, et cetera, whatever it is. I might need some help in getting that.

Yeah.

I don't know if you'd be willing to share a little bit. How hard was that journey for you between acknowledgement and help? How big was that? You're shaking your head sideways. Like, how far a bridge is that?

You know, the ironic thing is I have such. I'm aware of supports for people. Like, that's been educated. You're knowledgeable, you know, and I've worked for health Department. You know, I've been in the world where people go for either physical health or mental health.

Yeah.

Did that apply to me? Not necessarily, but smart enough to understand, like, at the point where I started really experiencing some of my symptoms, I was like, in perimenopause.

Yeah.

So a lot of times people will say, oh, that's just your hormones. And. And a lot of times, I think, especially for women, people default to that. And it's not easy. Yeah, it's easy, but it wasn't because it wasn't getting any better. And, you know, like I said earlier, I really was, like, hesitant. I did not want to take medication. And I kept talking to my doctor about it, and, like, I'm going to try this. I'm going to try exercising. I'm going to Try blah, blah, blah. Because I like to read.

I'll be heroic.

Right? Right. And at one point, I just couldn't do it anymore because I. I have this energy inside of me that's usually happy and optimistic and funny and that was nowhere to be seen. Like it was like locked away somewhere. And so taking the medication has helped and then like again, finding things that I need for self care. So I love to read. I like to read fiction because I like an escape. I. And I like to craft, but I am sucky at it. But I just like, it's something to do. I love to walk. And so those are the things that bring me joy and then my children and my grandchildren. So I just try to identify those things that can flip the script or, you know, for me and help me to enjoy and savor the moment that I'm in instead of thinking, oh, I got to get ready for this report or, you know, somebody needs money to get, you know, I don't know, something for my kids or, you know. Yeah. So I just. Trying to make sure that I stay focused on me.

Well, I think it'd be very easy in a role, a being a mother and a grandmother and a manager to feel the responsibility of. I just need to put everybody first and take care of them. Then I'll get to me. Because you love what you do. You love the people that you're doing your work for.

But.

And you're willing, and I know you are, because it's true of all of us helpers. We're willing to let ourselves be robbed of some joy for meaning and purpose.

Yes.

Right. It's meaningful enough. It's got enough purpose in it. I will sacrifice.

I will sacrifice.

But we can go down a dark. To a dark place if we don't, if we go too far.

Right.

Basically, it becomes pathological at some point. And you recognize, like, I'm gonna take some joy back from myself.

Yes. And I mean, sometimes I have to remind myself because you get in the zone.

Yeah. Yeah.

Wow.

Okay, we got maybe a couple minutes left. Anything else you want to share about your tips for mental health or things that you found to be essential for wellness? Because I know you've talked on relationships too, and making sure you're connected socially and with your family and, you know, finding hobbies that are good for you and anything else?

One thing is I did get. I am in counseling.

Oh.

Yeah. And that's great.

That's awesome.

So I just. I guess my message would be, is if you think that you may be experiencing Some of the symptoms of a mental health situation that you shouldn't ignore it, don't try to shut it down. But then also don't go so far to the left that you're in the dark, like, oh, my gosh, I have Alzheimer's. Or, you know, just take it one day at a time, but look at what's going on and try to figure out who you can talk to to get some help. And my first step was to talk to my physician.

Perfect.

Yep. And then from there. Yeah, yeah. So it's hard, but it is also, I've had a great life, and I am very fortunate that I have a job that I absolutely love. I wake up every day excited to come to work, and that's a. That's a positive energy, and I appreciate that.

Yeah, yeah. Gratitude for what we're doing with our lives is a huge part of.

Oh, yeah.

Obviously a huge part of us feeling good about our life, period, in general. But I appreciate you sharing all of this and coming on the show and talking about, very personally, what it is considered very personal to talk about our mental health. I, like you, hope someday it's not considered so personal, because there are probably other things in our lives that will remain personal in our culture. But for me, mental health, as you're sharing, it's got to be one of these things. Just like physical health. Just like anything. We all need to take care of these things.

Absolutely.

Yeah. All right, well, thanks for coming on the show. I'd also like to thank our producer, Dadalion Lowry, and the entire team at LCC Connect who make this show possible. You can connect with show notes, previous episodes, and even explore other podcasts at LCC Edu Connect. And lastly, I want to let everybody know that if you're experiencing some mental health challenges, please ask for help. Just like Rhonda was saying. You know, if you're an LCC student, you can schedule an appointment with a licensed mental health counselor here at LCC Edu Counseling. And for anyone in the community, you can call or text 988 for mental health assistance any day, anytime. Okay, that's it for today. Thanks, everyone, for tuning in, and we'll see you next time in the headroom.