Speaker: 00:00:40

I know that um just being your friend, having been around you guys, um I would say more

intensely in the last three years.

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um I knew Ben for a long, long time when I was from when I was even a teenager to, to this

point, but Saso I met when I first came back, I think you had arrived to Northwest Valley

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while I was gone in Africa um and, immediately hit it off with these guys.

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One of the things I've noticed just, you know, being your friend,

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I've seen you guys use the exchange Bible study a lot and I'm just wondering, know,

honestly, you know, you don't have to sugarcoat You don't have to flatter or anything like

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that But when you as you've used the exchange Bible study, you know, what have you seen

God do with it?

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um What do you like about it?

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What do you what do you think its strengths are obviously anything has strengths and

weaknesses?

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So you go you go into whatever you want to go into you don't have to be bashful But but I

think I think that um I think that it's good for the audience to hear from practitioners

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you know, guys that actually use it ah in their ministry.

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And you guys have a very intense ministry, an addictions ministry, freedom that lasts.

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So you guys write blogs, you you have a podcast.

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And so ah I know Rebecca has a counseling ministry, your wife saw so, and Diane's been a

Sunday school teacher to many, kids over the years.

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they're both also involved, Diane and Rebecca are both also involved in FTL.

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So how have you guys seen the Lord use?

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the exchange bible study, that whole curriculum.

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I would say that I didn't take the training class on it.

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So Rebecca really took that training class when I think Jeff Musgrave came and presented

that several years ago.

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I would want to say 2015 because when I bought my car, I just tie that memory.

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So it's 2015, I think, when he came and she took the training and she used it immediately

with somebody we picked up on the bus, a young lady that was about 17, 18.

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I'm letter to the Lord through that and I really didn't pay it much mind, right?

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I mean I've tried it a couple times at work when I was at Target even got this they went

through all these hoops to get the Spanish edition it was such a Like you couldn't get it

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so easily as you can now It was hard to get so I have a Spanish edition because a guy at

my work that speaks, you know felt more comfortable doing it in Spanish and Honestly, I

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just never pursued it with them like I should have

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um They weren't they didn't follow up with me and I was like, yeah, you know, they don't

want to be saved, you know, and they're going to go to hell.

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just that's I didn't say that right.

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But that's how you felt just to be real about it.

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That's what I showed because I didn't pursue.

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we went to freedom at last.

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And, know, the church has it.

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And I really didn't know a lot about the exchange, to be honest with you.

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And and you volun told me somebody that we met.

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And you're like, Hey, sauce is going to do the exchange with you.

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And I'm like, I am.

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OK, like, what do you how do you say no to that?

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Right.

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Right.

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Right.

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Here's some fish.

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All these fishes in the ocean.

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And we're hungry.

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Like, yeah.

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OK.

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So I agreed to do it.

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And that really was my first experience with the exchange on that level.

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I tried it with somebody at work, but.

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you know, I did I mean, we're, we're still on like lesson three.

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We didn't really go anywhere with it.

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And then but this guy was hungry for it.

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He was he was wanting to pursue pursue God he was searching he was lost.

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He was coming off of an addiction and he was God at this point as you would say gave him a

moment of clarity in his life.

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He was free of substance.

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And he just

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ate it up every week, he would come prepared and he would this whole and it's a lot right.

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If you look at the exchange, it's it's a lot to go through from one week to the next.

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There's are a few however you do it.

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But from lesson one to lesson two, there's a lot of blanks.

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There's a lot of deep stuff in there.

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That's a lot of people.

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It's hard to do it like one lesson a week.

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Yeah, and uh

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It was tough and I was just, then it, you know, I started reading it and like, wow, this

is really good.

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It kind of explained things.

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It kind of, you know, it was leading you obviously to like Jesus did many times in the

word of God.

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was setting people up to hear the gospel or to hear what his message.

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And I think that's what the, exchange does.

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It builds up from week one to week two.

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I'm like, wow, I'm just.

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You know, okay, God is you know, God is love and well, I'm and I'm a scumbag like and If

people get that point like wow that I'm not worthy then I think lesson three is gonna go

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really well and it's funny because We were gonna go out to lunch and you're like, hey, do

you mind if Jeff Musgrave comes along?

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I'm like, yeah, I kind of do like I'd rather not have lunch with Jeff Musgrave.

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I think I don't know this guy I gotta be spiritual.

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You know, I just can't shoot the breeze

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And when he came, it's I feel like it was God.

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uh Obviously was, but that God orchestrated that lunch because that day I would sit in

that same restaurant that I go to all the time in that same booth and talk to this man.

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And I told him like, here, here's the background.

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And he kind of encouraged me and he said, man, if he's willing to go to lesson three after

hearing lesson two, he's almost an honorary Christian.

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He's going to get saved.

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I know he is.

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And we prayed for him and we went through lesson three.

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And oh my next question was, hey, OK, what's your decision?

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Do you accept what God's done for you?

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And but God said, don't say nothing.

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Just let it let it just let it sit with him.

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And I went he went to the bathroom and.

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It just didn't happen.

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I was like, man, he seemed like he was into it.

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And then Friday, he talked about the exchange again.

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It was Wednesday to Friday, freedom to the last.

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He had more questions.

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And the group kind of helped answer those questions.

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he was encouraged.

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And then the next Wednesday, we were doing lesson four.

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And I wanted to know, like, dude, where are you at?

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Like, because lesson three is powerful.

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Lesson four is just, come on.

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Said oh I have big news and I'll go excited and his big news was like my girlfriend and

something's the stupidest thing I've ever heard I'm like, that's not big news.

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I thought big news was like I accepted Christ and and Then like 20 minutes later.

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He's a hey man I just wanna let you let you know that after Friday night I was you know,

I've been thinking about the exchange and you know what on lesson 3 and God is love and

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and I went home on Saturday and

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I believe I accepted Christ.

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said, well, how do you know?

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And he's like, I put my faith in Jesus Christ for nothing else.

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I believe I'm just like, that wasn't your big news.

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Like you didn't lead in with that.

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That next time.

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And I think once you experience somebody going through the exchange and you see somebody

come to Christ, it's like, man, I want to do this with everybody.

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And God brought in my cousin Tony that we did it as a group.

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And uh there was a young man there that was not interested at all.

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His mom forced him to come.

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And he didn't get saved.

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He didn't want to accept it.

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But my cousin Tony, I mean that was the gateway to leading him to Christ.

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He became a believer through the exchange.

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And that was the second person that we saw.

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um And there's several other people, Matt that we're doing, Gustavo who I work with, we're

stuck on lesson three.

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And he just can't get past certain things about God is love.

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But it's been it's such I think it's easy to ask people.

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don't know Ben can expand on this as well.

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He here you want to do a Bible study.

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I think somebody that has one percent interest or a little interest, they think like, yes,

I want to do it.

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Not knowing that the Bible study is a mission to get them to know Jesus Christ as their

Lord and Savior.

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And I think the exchange is such a powerful tool because it

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Think it starts in the just the right way and it just kind of eases you in and then boom,

you know God really works through that book so Sorry Jeff about that Interaction, but I

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just really believe it's been such a powerful Where I have extra books in my car and I

have a book that I filled out in my house ready to go That I you know, there's a comfort

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level when you've done it a couple of times.

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but I think it's a powerful tool and

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pretty clear on how you can become, how you can have a personal relationship with Jesus

Christ.

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Now there's some deeper things in there that to me, people struggle with, because it's

kind of, know, every, there's pros and cons, right?

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But I think it's necessary to know, um but I mean, there is some deep, deep topics.

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And I think in those, uh

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And those areas, you just take your time.

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Like you don't push through, if they're not ready to go to three or they're not ready to

go to four or they're not ready go to two, you spend your time on one ensuring like, okay,

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man, I know that's a lot.

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Some people can handle the strong coffee, right?

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And some people can't.

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They get jittery.

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And we don't wanna get jittery.

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We want them to fully understand what the exchange and what God has really done for them.

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And I think once, it's funny because when I did it with Scott,

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He he said all that verse when you know God took upon, know, he exchanged exchange.

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that's why it's called the exchange.

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He got it.

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And that's when it to me clicked in his mind.

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Like, wow, that verse because the book, you don't understand the exchange.

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But once you come to know Christ and you come to know the power of that verse, it clicks

and you're like, wow, that was that is the great exchange that God has done in my life.

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Yeah, 2 Corinthians 521 and that chart where you cross out Jesus's name and you put your

name there.

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That is we've we've heard from a lot of people that have used the book that you know,

that's where a lot of people get it.

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What's interesting is after we three had lunch with Jeff that day, we got in the car and

started driving back here to Ben's place, I think, to continue recording.

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And Jeff's like, yeah, two things, man.

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They're they're good friends to you.

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They treat you well and You guys are good friends and I could just tell that just by

sitting at the table so he he's so such a relational guy that it's like the prism through

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which he sees the world and then um You know, the other thing is I asked him one time.

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This is

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uh Totally different time not related to that lunch uh Man, know, it's tough to get people

through and in four weeks on the exchange like man I usually go to eight.

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I'm like what you didn't you didn't tell me this so he's like no I could take anywhere

from four to eight.

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You just depends on the person you're sitting with so Yeah, but I think to though the

reason I love the four weeks is because

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there is an urgency in getting the gospel out.

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You don't know how much time you have with that person.

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And as you know, sometimes you can get to lesson two and then boom, that person for some

reason, the interest dies, it goes away, whatever.

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So I do think, you know, as soon as possible as we can get them as we can get them to

Christ, the better.

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But there are some people just they.

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Cody, he was on the podcast here with you guys.

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You know, it was like six months of hour and a half to two hour meetings with me every

week.

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um So, you know, that's

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Thanks.

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were generous with your time.

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It was exact words.

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what else is a pastor's time for than that kind of thing?

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anyway, Ben, tell us, what do think, you've used the exchange, we did it together actually

with, um man, I'm sorry, I forgot his name, Jake.

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We did it together with Jake, went all the way through it, so tell me what you think.

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ah Yeah, I think you're like what you said.

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I think we're sold that it's a four part Bible study.

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So in our mind, mentally, we're thinking four weeks or four meetings.

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And I think that when you try to do that, it's it's very overwhelming, especially for

somebody who's never been churched, doesn't know much and comes in and sees all these

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verses and sees all these blanks they got to fill in and feels like homework and, you

know, all of that.

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uh All that to say is it's it's that dilemma where you just said there's an urgency, but

there's a lot of good stuff in here.

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You know, like, mean, there's a lot of meat in there for you to for you to chomp on.

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So, yeah, I love the exchange.

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It's it's a constructive criticism.

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You can call it.

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I don't know if there's a there's a better way to get them through and faster.

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I don't know.

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Just because of that urgency.

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And I think I think of that, you know, I think of that urgency.

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We know we don't know what's going to happen.

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We're not promised our next breath.

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We don't know.

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But yeah, I love I love the exchange.

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I think I took Jeff's class might have been in 2015.

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I don't remember.

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And uh it was, I thought it was great material.

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uh I think I, I might've even gone through the exchange with my dad at one point.

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And this is even back when they were living back in New Mexico.

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uh I didn't see any, any fruit out of that.

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Unfortunately, I don't know if I went too fast or if he didn't understand, not quite sure.

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ah And then a few, couple of years later, Diane and I sat with some friends and we, uh we

were kind of trying to figure out like, Hey, this is

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You know, we wanted to practice, so we kind of would get together on a I was like a

Thursday night, Friday night or something.

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We get some food and then we'd go through the exchange and we'd fill in all the blanks

ourselves and try to just talk through some things just to kind of practice up.

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And so, you know, I had a little bit of interaction with it.

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The primary interaction I had with it was with with Joel.

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And what ended up happening is uh Ivan, another church member, had started discipling Joel

and started going to the exchange with him.

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And there was just a night where he couldn't he couldn't meet with Joel at the church.

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And so I was like, I'd love to meet with Joel.

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I had already met him and we just kind of clicked.

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And I got to do lesson, I think it was less, it might've been lesson three out of four.

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I don't even remember, honestly.

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And it was one of those things where I got to witness the Holy Spirit just moving.

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And I saw how the Holy Spirit was just moving in Joel and the question, he was asking

questions.

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And this is what I love about the exchange because it generates questions and it generates

discussion.

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And they're real questions, know, they're real surface level questions that people are

going to have.

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And not that I have all of the answers and I even told him I said, I may not have all the

answers.

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And if not, if I don't, we can we'll figure them out.

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We'll figure this thing out together.

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But he just kept asking these really, really good questions.

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I mean, you can tell he was he was ready.

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He the Holy Spirit was moving and uh and it kind of clicked for him.

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And this is again the Holy Spirit moving through me.

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It was nothing that I it just came to me at the moment.

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uh But he's like, yeah, I just feel like, man, I got it.

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I have to I got to clean myself up before I can do any of this.

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I can't come to God like this.

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And I said, well, wait a minute, I said.

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I said, do you, do you lose weight before you go to the gym?

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You go to the gym to lose weight.

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I said, you go to God to clean you up.

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God cleans you up.

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You don't clean yourself up.

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And it clicked, but he didn't get saved at that moment.

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We continue talking, but I saw him and he, I mean, he was emotional.

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I saw the spirit moving.

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He was, you know, tearing up.

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And I thought, man, you know, he's going to get saved.

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I just, it didn't happen that moment.

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What I, what I didn't know is right after that meeting, he went to his van.

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And he trusted Christ in his van.

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He got saved in his van.

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And so, yeah, and unfortunately, you know, he he ended up moving back to Alaska, but he

was coming to FTL and he was hanging with us and we were trying to disciple him.

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In fact, we had we had like a Wednesday night group that we were meeting with and we

started doing like a.

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Christian discipleship book and then it ended up moving over to back to the exchange

because we got Tony and that was cool and that was cool because we still had some guys

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coming in and it was neat because we'd have guys that were saved already but they were

coming in just to see how we did it and they were learning too and so it was just neat to

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have a group and it was just almost like a big support group and Tony was just getting fed

and uh there were times for me and Sasa were like did he get saved and I don't know we

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would just be like oh maybe I don't know and we honestly don't even know at what point he

got saved but um

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But he did, gloriously saved.

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And so it's just an amazing thing to see the spirit work, to see how it all works.

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But I think the exchange is a very powerful tool.

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um If anything, it gets you reading the word.

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It prompts questions.

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It prompts curiosity.

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I think it's just it's a relational thing because you like you and Cody, you guys built a

relationship over that, you know, six period and six month period, whatever, whatever you

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met with him going to take it a moment to a coffee shop.

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But but.

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up.

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But yeah, I think it's it's definitely a powerful tool.

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I love it.

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It's great.