John and Connie: Hi, and welcome

to another episode of Celebrating

Small Family Businesses.

Today, we are celebrating, not

separating, celebrating John and Jen

Chan from Vancouver, British Columbia.

Hi, John.

Hi, Jen.

John and Jenn: Hello.

Hello there.

John and Connie: So, we connected through

a wonderful service called Podmatch.

I'd love to give them a little shout out.

I'm glad we got connected.

So, how, tell me a little bit about

your business and your origin story.

How did it get started?

John and Jenn: So I'll take this one.

I think we've been

working on this company.

So we run a marketing agency called

2X and we've been running it since

2016 or so, starting off as a

conversion rate optimization agency.

So if you're not familiar with

conversion rate optimization agency,

we're basically a design consultants.

Where we'll do redesigns and it

will measure for for improvements

and that started in 2016 But this

is actually our second company.

Um, the first time we started working

together was a software company

back in 2013 So almost, you know 10,

11 years ago at this point where,

um, we wrote and sold software.

And so we had a productivity

app that I was practicing and

learning how to code on the side.

And, uh, she brought, she joined

in to help support me with that

project and it became a company.

And, um, and yeah, we've been

running the agencies since, and, uh,

that's kind of like our background.

John and Connie: Cool.

Alright.

And, and, did you guys, was that your

first meeting when, when Jen joined

you, uh, to, to build the software?

John and Jenn: No, actually

we met at a conference in 20.

2011, right?

It's 2010, 2011.

Cause it's like right at the

cusp of like December of 2011.

Um, yeah, we met at a conference

and we were pretty much both the

youngest people there and just clicked

and, you know, in ways that we just

kind of connected and then it just

kind of became that afterwards.

We didn't start working

together until 2013.

So it was a couple of years.

I was still on my last year in college.

University.

So that was that was that

John and Connie: Wonderful.

Wonderful.

So, conversion rate optimization,

you, you can explain that, right?

Sure.

I

John and Jenn: We started as an

optimization agency.

We're currently a advertising agency.

So we run ads for e commerce and

SAAS businesses, um, software

businesses, mostly on the e commerce

side, because we also have a Bought

e commerce stores ourselves or

e commerce businesses ourselves.

We have two brands under our own name

Um and run it for that as well so a

little bit on the venture side a little

bit on the agency side for client

servicing, but Um, john can probably

tell you more about what is the end

goal of the whole entire business Uh,

he's probably going to be more adequate

to actually give you the whole spiel

John and Connie: Okay.

Okay.

Well, what I'm hearing is that you're Wow.

Leverage.

You don't sleep a lot.

John and Jenn: No, fortunately you see

these eye bags are like right out there

It's um, she picked it right away.

John and Connie: That's that's her.

Um, so you..

Conversion rate optimization is kind

of like fine tuning the, the ad.

So you've, you've got that experience

on the back end and then you come

into now you're running ads and you're

also eating your own cooking by.

Running your own brands and, and

testing and, and refining on your

own, you know, like spending your

own money to do, to back up what

you're doing for other people.

That's awesome.

John and Jenn: Absolutely

You hit the nail on the head.

John and Connie: Awesome.

I hit the nail on the head.

You hear that?

Yeah, there you go.

Impressive.

So, uh, I, I, one of the questions

we like to ask is, what's a, unique

proposition or, , what, what's kind of

sets you guys apart in your industry?

I might have just said it,

but I want to hear you say it.

John and Jenn: Of course.

Yeah, I mean, if you look at the career

history, so I'll start there and I'll

kind of explain the work that we do,

what's unique about the way we do things.

In my case, I had basically

three major arcs in my career.

I started off as a user

experience designer, so I

came from a design background.

I dropped out of school.

Um, but I learned how to code in

high school and then that became sort

of like the, the backbone for the

foundational skill sets around if I

make a webpage, who are the people

behind the webpage that I'm servicing.

And I, like, I was some skills that,

um, I did that at a university for about

four, four and a half years working

at university, not studying there.

So I, so I did a for, for a while

and that sort of led into the

conversion optimization agency.

Um, but part of the reason why we

started a software company was because.

In 2012 or so I joined, , in our

industry, a well known software

company called Basecamp or 37 signals.

They rebranded.

Um, and so what they do is they sell

project management software and they

invented a, uh, programming language.

And so through working with them,

I got to see how they ran a remote

company, , firsthand, cause they wrote

and published a lot of work around that.

, and they wrote and sold

their own software.

And so being able to see those

types of things, it, it really You

know, I learned a lot from them,

but I also kind of rubbed off on me.

And so when I came back here,

um, they're based in Chicago.

When I came back to Vancouver and growing

the software company, it kind of got us

like through a period where we learned

a lot more about technical skills

of the development side of products.

Um, but towards the end of that

company, we started realizing and

thinking to ourselves, At least

incorrectly so, initially, where we

thought we weren't good at marketing

because we were able to sell a

product that people generally loved.

We're good at design.

We're able to write software,

but we couldn't figure out the

distribution of that software.

And so, you know, throughout the

years, we've always believed in

teaching what we needed to learn.

And so initially, we, we, Dipped

into consulting by leveraging the

skill sets that we already had.

But over the course of the years,

we realized that media buying and

running advertising campaigns was a

more effective way of approaching it.

And as you get into the question of

what makes us unique, very few people

have that kind of history of being

a designer and then we get into a

technical sort of skillset and then

layering that on top of marketing.

And so our consumers that we serve

when we run ads, they go through

the entire Can you see an ad?

You click on the link.

There's an experience of what happens

when you get to the website or the landing

page all the way through the checkout.

And we can think about that entire life

cycle of the journey and later, how does

the advertising campaign bleed into the

messaging on the website to the checkout

experience of how they consume the

product in order for them to come back?

And I would say that most shops,

understandably so, are supposed to

be specializing in each of those

segments in those areas, but very few

would be able to tie it all together.

And also have the ability to have

analytics, um, measure from point

A to point B, um, from start to

finish, um, with the recognition

that sometimes data can be wrong.

There's a lot of nuance behind the

technical side of it, where if you're

not a developer, it hard, it's hard

to do that type of work as a marketer.

John and Connie: Dang.

That, that's a lot.

I, I understand.

Actually, I, I could

quickly show my ignorance.

Uh, yeah, , like, attribution , of sales,

of, , where it came, there's, there's

different ways of attribution from,

you know, first click and last click

and in between and, and all that stuff.

And, and yeah, tracking all that

is an , somewhat inexact science

because of the different platforms

and because people are people, right?

John and Jenn: you hit the nail on

the head again because it's, it's,

it's a very hard problem because

there are technical barriers to it and

there's also platform barriers to it.

So for example, if you're on

advertising on meta, um, it used

to be that was very easy for, um,

meta to track what happens on the

consumer side all the way to purchase.

Um, but with Apple coming with.

Better consumer privacy

protection settings.

What does it actually

mean for the advertiser?

And so when you're reading numbers in

your advertising campaign in determining

how do you set budgets or to diagnose

if a particular ad creative or ad

campaign is, is it on the ad creative

side of things, or is it on the landing

page of side of things, and then the

measurement is not fully accurate,

how do you know which one to look

at versus which ones do you ignore?

Right.

And so if you layer that on top of

the statistics behind it and say,

this one is statistically significant,

this one is not, this way you can

run an experiment to get to the point

of, um, be able to interpret it.

This one you cannot.

Um, those are all, uh, tools that are,

are available to us, um, because we

come from that kind of background to

think about things technically, and

also being versed in analytics and math.

John and Connie: Okay, yeah, I think

probably the, the average marketing,

small marketing firm is, is more, just

more focused on, you know, how much

budget we'll get, we'll get you, you

know, we'll run the ads for this long and

we'll spend your budget and good luck.

John and Jenn: Right.

It's like, we'll get and get our ROI.

We know we spend this money and

we can get this return back.

Um, but how does it exactly play out?

And, and again, it's always, the

devil's always in the details.

Right.

And how do you, uh, uh, prioritize

certain budgets versus others?

For marketing efforts towards

one efforts for the other.

Um, You know, that's the kind of thing

that we've developed over the years

that we now recognize that is a very

unique strength to us, especially if

we're tasked to audit another brand

or another agency's ad accounts.

We usually find a lot of issues where

it's like, yeah, they're not supposed

to know that, and neither are you.

And therefore we can

do something about it.

The other thing it's like, I

can add is probably, um, John, you can

probably speak a lot more into is, um,

What kind of going back to what you

were saying, I was like, what kind of

distinguish between us versus others in

the industry, um, of When we actually go

and look at a client or potential client

or even our clients right now We don't

often talk about having profitable skip

profitable and scalable ads And what does

that really mean john probably have a

better better better way to explain that

than I do So maybe you can actually talk

John and Jenn: sure I mean, it's one

of those things where it's tables big

for any marketing campaign You have to

make sure it's profitable and I think

I see not always I see sometimes people

approach marketing You Um, from the

perspective of just wearing a marketing

hat, whereas realistically you should

be wearing a finance hat, right?

And so marketing and finance, they

both work hand in hand from both from

a finance, uh, planning side of things,

but also being able to read a P and L.

So if you know that, you know,

the unique economics of an ad

campaign, is it be profitable?

What does that look like in terms of

the profile of the business, in terms

of your EBIT and your net margins?

Um, is the company profitable?

If you can think about strategic

options for do you fundraise or not?

Are you looking to sell

the business or not?

There are different levers that are

available to you from a marketing

perspective that I talk a little bit

less about because I think I understand

that most intuitively understand that.

But to Jen's point, it's, it's

not just dollar in dollar out

and making sure it's profitable.

We should, you know, always track

it down to the, uh, the unique

economics and see what the overall

strategy of the company is.

And I think that's the biggest

piece of what just just separates us

as a business to others that is in the

industry that is doing similar services

to us and why people why clients choose

us over the others just because we do

ask those tough questions and like hey

um not just looking at your ad creative

not just looking at your ad account

how much are you trying to sell spend?

How much are you trying to let go?

What is the end goal of the company at

the like next 6 months, next 12 months?

What is the margins and net things

that you're trying to actually reach?

We look at all those things to

think about how should we go about

putting a plan together for the next

6 to 12 months of working together.

John and Connie: Wow.

Okay.

Yeah, you're, you are heads and

tails, over above everything

else that we've, we've done.

We've talked to and other companies.

Yeah.

Wow.

Good job.

So, shifting slightly to, yeah, I mean

I'm geeking out here, but Exactly.

We need to get out of here.

We are talking about family.

So, um, what do you love most

about working with family?

John and Jenn: I have lots to

say, but why don't you start?

I think it's a tough one.

Cause I'm like, I, I didn't really start,

start loving it in the first place.

I actually didn't want to work with him.

Um, I worked with him initially

just because of, okay, I know he

was struggling with something.

I know I'm good at that to

actually be able to support that.

Um, my personality is very

much of a very supportive role,

um, throughout my entire life.

Anyways, so I support anywhere

and anyone that is around me.

So When he is asking, when he

asked, I was like, yeah, of

course I can do that for you.

And I'm here for the long run anyway.

So I'm like, okay, I'm going to be here.

And it was supposedly temporary.

Then it became a serious afterwards.

I'm like, okay, well, since I'm

here already, let's just go with it.

Um, so it's just going

through this rollercoaster.

And I just went on this board of

train, thinking I was going to get off.

The next stop, but no, it just kept going.

Uh, what I kind of loved about

working with him over years, I

think we started working together

when we were in the 20s, right?

So mid 20s, uh, through the next

like 10 years of working together,

we grew together as a Individuals

and as partners and as lovers and

as like now we're married, right?

So there's a lot of growing up that

we were doing together, and I think

it's quite interesting and it's not I

don't think a lot of couples that have

worked together and is in business

together have gone through that as well.

So, that's like part of

the actuality of our story.

Uh, of where, how we grow up

together and now going into

business throughout that 10 years.

Uh, lots and lots of things have changed.

Personality have changed.

Our mindset have changed.

Our habits and like, things that we,

do have changed, our perspectives

have changed over time as well.

And learning from this, I think

learning from him, he's taught me

a lot throughout that 10 years.

I mean, I learned a lot from her too, so

that's not, it's not, it's not always what

John and Connie: Smart boy!

It's a two way, it's

definitely a two-way street.

John and Jenn: For me.

John and Connie: my

John and Jenn: No, I'd actually love

to expand on that because I think um, I

also want to hear from Jen first because

You know for me i've always thought

about this and and it's come up in past

podcast interviews as well But I think

for me what I loved about working with

her It's it's not for the faint of heart

as you must, you know Hear from now from

all the different families that you've

interviewed Working with families can

be very complex and the power dynamics

and you're dealing with finances.

You can see a lot of issues with conflicts

But I think one of the guiding principles

in the way that we've worked together

and we've always looked at, you know, Is

it a good idea to start a business with

your girlfriend and and mix finances?

The litmus test has always been around.

Um, not how well we when things are

working Well, of course, there's gonna

be trials and tribulations in any

business, but it's how well did we fight?

And so when I think about, you

know, when things are going bad or

when things aren't going really as

well, she's always been my rock.

And, and, and to have someone to

have that level of empathy and

understanding of like, Oh, we just

got screwed over in a business deal.

Or we just had this really bad

interaction with certain thing.

She felt firsthand was like, Oh,

I know exactly what that means.

And to see me being in a depressive

state and for her to just roll up her

sleeves and get back to work, like it's

just, it's, it's hard to express the

kind of, um, loyalty and strength that

you have in, in one another that, um,

You cannot find, uh, in anywhere else

because, you know, in most cases, it's,

it's supposed to be transactional.

You're business partners, you know,

you have your personal life and then

you have your business life separated.

The downside is also that it's

mixed to in her case, you know,

when she needs personal boundaries

outside of business, right?

Those are the kinds of things

that I'm sure you hear a lot about

where those things can be mixed in.

Um, there's, there's other downsides.

I'll speak a little bit of that

as well with, you know, power

dynamics, for example, right?

Whenever you get into like, let's

say performance issues or, or fights,

you can't just easily break up.

You can't easily just tell the other

person and fire the other person.

Those things should always be

an option available to you, but

navigating those challenges are

very, very challenging, right?

How much it is, is it my fault?

How much is it her fault?

It gets really personal really

quickly that you can't have with an

employee or regular business partner.

Um, And so I think all of those things,

you know, built into like us growing up

together and learning through a lot of

things together as, as, as you look back

in the years, every year, there's still

challenges, but every year it gets better

and you can't, but help be optimistic

about, you know, we're in our thirties

right now, but you can't, but help be

optimistic about what's to come for us.

And at least for me,

that's how I feel about it.

And I joke with her, like, you know,

cause every time we get into any

type of new business or start a new

thing, she's always like the one

that's bearing a lot of the workload.

And I'm always the one that's.

You know, dealing with all the fun

aspect of, of starting something

new or taking a new thing on.

And, um, but I always joke, it's like,

you're coming with me on this one, right?

It's so, it's so it's because

for me, it's like, you know,

it's easy for me to bring her on.

Um, but then there's, you know, real

challenges of, of should I do it?

Because it's our strength and weaknesses.

And how does that actually play out

with, you know, what is the advantage

of running this particular business as

a couple versus keeping it separate?

Yeah,

John and Connie: Wow.

You guys are such deep thinkers.

I mean, yes, I, I, I, I was

getting choked up there.

So what you were saying about, you

know, the, you know, the rock and,

and knowing that she's there, uh,

totally, I, I totally experienced that.

And, you know, in our case, it was

my family business that Connie was,

you know, Connie moved, you know,

We moved on to a family property.

We live next door to my

parents out in the country.

And, you know, I worked at the

business, you know, all the time.

And then Connie would come

to work at the office some.

And, you know, it's I just, thank God she

was there, because, you know, you guys

don't have the two generation dynamics,

I don't think, from what I'm hearing.

I, you know, I had the, I was the

son that, you know, waiting for

permission to grow up, as I call it.

And, um, and there were, yeah, there's

been, there was several times when

Connie was the, she had the objectivity

to say, Whoa, this doesn't make sense.

And, and, you know, she would, and she

would go to bat for her position, you

know, her belief there that this was

right for the company and the family

even, as a, an in law that, you know,

didn't have that blood stake and it was.

Even as his dad was

standing there blustering.

But we've got to do something!

And it's kind of like, oh no, we don't.

You know?

You need to stop.

Now I'm talking about our story.

But yes, I can completely relate.

And what you said about

the different dynamics.

Sometimes that's what's Well,

I think it's what scares some

people about family businesses.

Like if they're going, you know, either

going to start one or maybe go to work for

another family's business, that, you know,

how are those dynamics going to play out?

How is it going to impact them?

Because , ultimately for the family

business owners, it comes down to,

We have to prioritize something, and

usually, you know, the family is going

to last longer than the business.

I mean, worst case scenario

and best case scenario, right?

And so , there's times when you just have

to prioritize the family, and if there's

a performance shortfall or something,

you know, weakness in somewhere, yeah,

you don't just replace that person

like they would in corporate, right?

You make do.

You figure it out.

You communicate.

You share, you rebalance the load,

even if it's a little unbalanced.

That's worth it for

the rest of everything.

John and Jenn: Absolutely.

And I think that's, that's, that's,

this is why I would say that family

businesses is not for the faint of

heart, because in, in, in a very broad,

like generalization, it's bad advice to

start a company with family members or

lovers, because again, it's, it's, Because

generally speaking, um, most people aren't

going to be prepared or able to manage

or deal with the conflicts that come up

because they're so complicated, right?

And they're so like intricate and,

and there's like the aspect of

betrayal and loyalty and whatever

that's all mixed in, they're the

basis of great dramas for a reason.

You know what I mean?

And, but the thing is like, you know,

at the same time though, but when it

works, Oh my God, it really is beautiful.

And, and when it works, it's like,

you know, we get to go and like travel

and vacations together and we bring

our work together and, you know, you

know, having long walks at the park

and we're talking about business and

we're at the sauna and we're like,

I'm talking about this new thing.

It's like, because it's so integrated.

Right.

Like when it works, it's, it's

beautiful, but it's, it's one of those

things where it, you have to be a

long term thinker right from day one.

There's no, there's no,

there's no second option.

Right.

And so if you're committed for

better and for worse, right.

Because for us, it's like, we

got into it almost by accident.

It wasn't a very thought through answer.

Right.

Which is, yeah, I'm refraining from

joking about how she moved into

it because we would never had the

talk about like moving in together.

I just woke up one day and she

just had more clothes at our place.

And I'm just like, wait a second.

I think she infiltrated the house.

You know what I mean?

And so sometimes I even joke around,

even married where it's like, this

is the best sleepover ever, right?

It's like, you just haven't left, but in

business it's always been like that too.

And again, you can't recommend that to

someone because that's not a good idea.

John and Connie: Well,

you couldn't plan that.

No.

That, that, because it happened

organically, that, you know, I

think that's what makes it work.

You learned it, you know, by inches

rather than, okay, we're going to make

a plan and tomorrow we're going to do

this thing, you know, it was as gradual.

So you just felt your way into it and

your communication evolved along with it.

And I think that's such a big key.

There's a communication.

We're not trained, right?

We're not trained for those challenges.

John and Jenn: Because you can't

be, there's nothing in school or

in regular life that can prepare

you for those types of dynamics.

But here's the fun part that,

you know, I think right now

I'm coming to terms with that.

Um, I'm realizing that we're actually a

lot less alone than we realize because

every now and then, you know, we're, this

is like 10 year of us working together.

We're starting to meet more and more

other couples, especially people that

have been around this longer than we have.

And next thing you know, we're like

talking about, yeah, we're having this

fight over this really silly thing.

And then they're like,

ah, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha.

Uh, you young kids, let me tell you about

the time I fired my wife from her job,

you know, and it's just like, man, it's

like, We realize that a lot of those

dynamics that is on one hand, very unique

to us, but just like, you know, on a broad

level, just, just like entrepreneurship,

forget about working in a family business.

You start realizing that as lonely

as it was, you're actually not alone.

There's other people that have

been through very similar or even

worse situations that you have.

And I find solace in that.

And that's why, you know, as

part of this, this conversation.

preamble to this interview, I got so

excited because it's whenever I see that

kind of dynamics, I know you two have a

lot of really wonderful stories that we

just don't even have a chance to hear.

Because you guys have been in

this game longer than we have.

And you know exactly

where we're coming from.

And that's why it's like, to your

point, you know, you choked up because

it's like, you felt that because we

went through that for the first time.

And it won't be our last, right?

John and Connie: Right?

Exactly.

Yeah, what I was trying to remember

before, you talked about fighting fair.

You know, and that's, that's actually

a phrase I was, I want to build

a product around at some point.

So, we do , consulting, a blend

of consulting and coaching

for family businesses because

that's where we come from.

And we're not trained,

but, but knowing how to.

To have a constructive disagreement,

that's a, you know, that's a skill.

It's a skill set, and it's

something you have to practice.

But it's based on some,

some understandings.

Like, you know, like, I know

if we disagree, she's not going

to pack her bag and leave.

John and Jenn: Yeah.

John and Connie: Thought about

it once or twice, but I didn't.

You know, there was, earlier

in my, in my career, this was

something we had to learn.

You know, I had to learn.

When it, that it was okay to,

that it was going to be safe to

argue and it wasn't going to be.

Well, and he's an only child, too.

So he doesn't understand the joy

of going up and smacking your

brother just to hear him cry.

Okay?

That was more fun.

But he didn't

John and Jenn: Things you can

do in a family business that you

can't do in a regular employment.

You can't just like walk

up and smack my, uh,

John and Connie: Exactly!

You know?

Sexual harassment is a thing.

But it just, you know,

for him to have to learn.

How to play a game with somebody else,

and not like his parents, who would either

let him win or beat the crap out of him.

You know, he had to figure

out that with me, he was safe.

He could get in my face and

go, and I'd go, yeah, yeah.

Yeah, and that's kind of a metaphor.

And we were fine.

John and Jenn: Yeah,

John and Connie: That's kind of a

metaphor for, for, for other things

too, you know, but, but it's, uh, The,

the other thing that you said about the

isolation, I really want to touch on

that, because I, I think that's, you

know, part of why we're doing this is

for outreach to other family businesses

to listen to family, and hear what you

just said, which is that, You know, the

number one rule in my family business

with my father was don't talk about the

business to anybody outside the family.

You don't, you don't talk about it.

It's our business.

It was because it's, because

it's family, so it's, there's

a more personal sense to it.

And so it is isolating.

I think, to some degree, we all

feel like our problems are unique.

You know, they're bigger than,

you know, other people don't

feel it the same as, or whatever.

Nobody else has done it just like we have.

But in the family business, yeah,

I think, just like you said, they

are unique to us in that they're us,

but at the same time, there's common

themes that are so common that we just

don't hear about because people are a

little leery about talking about it.

Now his dad had no problems going

and sitting at a bar someplace and

telling his accountant and his lawyer

all this stuff, but, you know, it was

different where he, you know, he didn't

find a mentor or a coach that could,

you know, work his way through this.

And that's what we're trying to do, is

we're trying to save people from all the

crap that we went through and making all

the mistakes we did, and we made them all

John and Jenn: right.

And I think that's hugely

important because I realized

that for us, I think we're lucky.

And in that sense that I think, you

know, even when we're young, we had a

few guidings, like guardrails, in terms

of like values and principles that I

think like saved us from from, you know,

disaster in a lot of different scenarios.

But you know, one of which I talked

about, you know, And again, these

things were because I think we're lucky

that we just happened to have that.

And so for all the trials and tribulations

and some of the lessons, if we didn't

have those, it could be disastrous.

And, and a lot of waste of time,

a lot of wasted effort, a lot of

wasted, you know, uh, money really

just to, to get, get ourselves going.

And so to have that dedication

towards serving that particular.

area of practice.

I think it's really important.

I'm glad you guys are doing that.

And even doing this podcast, because

even some of the topics that we're

talking about today, it's hard to share

that in a regular, you know, different

episode or different podcast environment,

because they wouldn't have known to

ask, or they wouldn't have known to

pick up on that, or that right there.

That's really important.

I can, let's, let's, let's expand on that.

And I think, you know, to my point earlier

around You know why I love these type of

impromptu conversations around these type

of things because it's like when you when

you ask me that it's like oh man like like

it just comes up and and But you're right.

It doesn't get told.

It's hard.

It's hard for those things to

be told because in most regular

conversations, having a conversation

with an accountant or a lawyer,

it's not going to come up, right?

It's like, you can talk about

like, oh, I'm having issues with

this, but it's just, there's

certain dynamics and nuances.

It's really hard to capture.

John and Connie: Yeah, they haven't

had that experience and they're,

they're going to kind of back off.

They don't, they don't

really want to talk about it.

They want to be your friend, but

they don't want to, they're not

qualified to really give advice.

Is it, have you got a therapist?

Something like that.

John and Jenn: the professional

setting of like, okay, well, it's

your accountant, it's your lawyer.

Say it's all about the business.

Like, what's the business problems?

How can I help you solve it?

Um, I think John came about this.

Um, a podcaster with some part and

Andrew, Andrew Wilkinson, and they talked

about it this phenomenon phenomenon

about, um, having people around you

that you can be vulnerable with.

And then.

The circle the more successful you are the

more that you need to be very selective

to your circle And who you can actually

share those type of information with

how you said it was like hey We don't

if we're a family business We don't

talk about our family business outside

of family or whatever it is or share it

with other people I think there's a bit

of a what I kind of liked about how they

shared it was Um, there is always going

to be that five people around you that

you can be very vulnerable with because

they can, they will not judge you.

They will not actually be like, , make

you, they will not be, , what's that word?

Judgmental.

Yeah, they won't actually be malicious

with you or anything like that.

They are actually there for you.

So you can actually share anything

with them for that particular purpose.

And then anything outside of that

is like, oh, just the acquaintances

that's like, okay, it's like might

be business acquaintances or like

anything that is like could be friends.

You could actually share some

information, not all the information.

Then you have the wide circles, like,

hey, absolutely nothing about that.

That they would not hear inside

stories about your, what is going on

in your business, how your business

is doing, how much are you making,

how you're charging, blah, blah, blah.

Those are all All the other things guys,

I think that's actually quite helpful in

terms of how we go about thinking of our

next step for ourselves as well as we grow

our business as we become more successful

as we grow our wealth and our riches.

Um, and As our business grow bigger and

bigger, because there is a way that we

need to actually cipher and filter through

the people that we are around with a lot.

And kind of like poker, you got to

like read the people around you.

It was like, Hey, what are they here for?

Where are they not here

John and Connie: Exactly.

And reevaluate on a, on a regular basis.

Do I still need this person in my life?

Because, you know, especially at

our age, we've cycled through a lot.

And, uh, and then we have a hardcore

group that, that no matter what.

John and Jenn: there's an interesting

dynamic about being in a family business

that I want to touch on because I think

when we talk about being in business

and having a circle of friends that are

close to you that you can share anything

with is hugely valuable, but one of the

things that comes up with family business

specifically, especially if you have

scenarios where you're sharing with your

friends, like, for example, I can talk

about my business with my friends, but if

I'm having partner issues or the person

that I'm combating with is my wife, Yeah.

It becomes an ethics issue because

after you talk to a friend or you

talk to somebody else, they still know

and they have to interact with them.

And so that dynamic is something

that comes up in family because

like, it's not about gossiping.

It's about working through problems.

And in the absence of that, if a

third party sort of person that

can sort of, um, you know, that's

what I can see, for example, being

a coach or, uh, even a therapist.

Helpful with is because you have that

arm's length sort of like, um, way to

solve that particular problem, but it

comes up with family where your friends,

when you can't share that or talk about

it in a way without the other person

being impartial, because they still

have to interact with the family member

afterwards when your family friends,

they're still interacting with them.

And so it just, it just adds to that layer

of, um, and again, going back to being

lucky, it adds to a layer of complexity

about running a family business.

But being lucky aspect of it is that.

I think we've had multiple instances

where we've had friends not take sides.

That they know that there's a

second half to the story when they

hear the other person complain

and have that dumped on them.

They know that their job as a friend is

to like, Yeah, John was being mean to you

and he shouldn't have said those things.

He said that in anger and

all those type of things.

That must be really hard.

How did it all come out?

And then come talk to me afterwards,

completely normal and be like,

Hey, what's going on in your world?

And what's, what's happening?

That, and then it's like, you know,

how do you have friends like that?

And when you have someone

like that, again, it just,

you know, touches our heart.

But at the same time, it's, it's

one of those things where it was.

It was tricky and hard to navigate,

especially early on when, um, when I

was uncomfortable with her going to our

friends or, you know, if, if I didn't

do that on the other side, how do we

navigate doing that in an ethical manner?

Like that's, that's a very family business

specific sort of like trait that it's,

it's hard to talk about or come across and

know what the right or wrong answer is.

For sure.

John and Connie: Yeah, we've

had some of that because I

don't have a lot of filters.

who knew?

And he might have a few more than I do.

So, you know, might.

So we've had to negotiate that

because I've had to either apologize

or say, you know, it is who I am.

You know, suck it up.

John and Jenn: Yeah.

But again, it's one of those things

that just adds a layer of complexity as

you navigate that kind of relationship.

It's not just the two of you

or the three of you or the

family, like the family unit.

It's, it's the extended circles

around it and having them like, how

do you integrate them or not integrate

them with the part of your life?

It's, yeah, it just adds

another layer of complexity.

John and Connie: Right?

And we are all born into family

businesses, if you think about it.

You know, all of your, your

views on money and relationships

came from your, your parents.

And how they view it.

Well then, how do they view it

out, you know, their parents.

And then, so it's generational.

So that's another thing that,

you know, being aware of that,

you know, is, is this mine?

Is it still relevant at this point?

If it's not, then update, move it

out and bring in something new.

And that's been another hard

thing to, to get past sometimes.

John and Jenn: for sure, for sure.

John and Connie: Yeah, we, we met, we had

a mentor back in the day that, um, was,

was a leadership development program.

And, and he, he was, you know,

trying to up level people's thinking.

And so his, his thing was, If

you're, if you've got a roof over

your head and you're, and you're

eating regularly, you're running

a successful business, okay?

You've got cash flow in and cash

flow out and, and, you know,

you're, you're, you're managing

resources, you're running a business.

And if you think of it like that, you're

not as small or ignorant or whatever

as you think you know you're it's it's

everything else is just a matter of

scale after that you know and and wow

what a he was a wise man so that's

the that's part of what that is about

and yeah the um so why don't we go on

to this one well i think we've um is

there anything that you know now that

you wish you'd known when you started

about being in business together

John and Jenn: I do, but

I'm not going to start.

Jen, you go first.

If you need, if you need time,

I can go first, but I just

don't want to hijack the mic.

Yes.

I wish, I think, I think I

wish, uh, can I say it wrong?

Of course, you can say anything you

John and Connie: we can always

edit if, if, we can always edit

it out if you're not happy.

Mm

John and Jenn: you want.

It's fine.

Um, I think I wish I've known that

he had ADHD before we started a

business together, but then he

wouldn't have known himself as well

because he got diagnosed quite late.

Uh, so I think that.

was probably the biggest barrier and

challenge to how we work together

and how we need to adapt to working

together because I'm very much of a

doer and like executioner and like

just get out of my way and like okay

well tell me what I need to do what is

the angle you need to actually get to

and like I'll get it all done for you.

Traits of ADHD kind of In that way, it

makes it a little bit more complicated

when I have to work with him.

He overthinks a lot.

He takes a long time to

actually go and execute things.

He might actually procrastinate a lot.

There's like a lot of things that just

is a barrier to getting him to the end

destination of what he needs to do.

Great thing about it.

Is that he is a starter of

any type of great ideas.

He's a good thinker.

He's a good ideation person He knows how

to go with very dealing with chaos at

a very Split of a second of like trying

to problem solve a lot of things very

creative um, that's great that that's

the great thing about him and his his his

uh situation It takes a lot of time and

effort for us to kind of find that mold of

like, okay That piece of Puzzle together

to kind of like, how do we actually work

with that and how do we come across?

Come together with our strengths and

weaknesses and like okay if your weakness

is ADHD, how can I actually fit my

pieces so then I can actually I can fit

perfectly with your ADHD in that way.

That's a lot of Adoption that needed

to be happening throughout the last 10

years We're like not not even last like

five five six years of like diagnosing

him and then now have to go like Okay,

now I know you had this scenario or

the situation now I have to go and

deal with it How do I deal with it?

I have to also talk to him and communicate

with him very differently from how I've

communicating with Communicated with

him before because it wasn't working.

You know, why don't you get it?

And it's just like now I know a lot more

about ADHD and I know a lot more about

what he's going through I can Slowly

become more empathetic of how he's

going through things and I was like,

okay, what are you trying to really do?

Help me go through your thought

process Go through that for me, and

then let me simplify it for you.

Um, it's probably the biggest thing

I would say I, I wished I knew

much sooner than it is, uh, after.

John and Connie: Okay.

In programming lingo, I think

what I'm hearing is that you're,

you're more of um, a sequential

program and he's multi threaded.

Sure.

Absolutely!

Mm

John and Jenn: I was gonna say, if

you're familiar with, um, I think

this is the teaching in the U.

S.

where it's, um, we're the classic

visionary versus integrator.

Right.

So it's like the, I'm the person

that's thinking, looking ahead.

And she's the one that has to

deal with a lot of the, the thing

gets get thrown back to her.

And I think she's being delicate about it,

but I think to her point in the work, she

was mostly coming from, you can sort of

hear the, the, the, the stress and agony

of like having to deal with me because

I actually realized that halfway through

it and, and in being self aware about,

Oh, those things aren't natural and it is

chaotic and problematic for someone

who has to do with all the mess

that I created in a sense, right?

But to her point about being great with

problem solving, you know For example

coming into this interview without

necessarily to read all the questions

in advance and and thriving on that kind

of thing Um, it just meant that uh, we

really did have to rely on our strengths

and weaknesses like every family or any

business partner Um, that was us As our

own maturity, as we grew and learn about

one another, um, it's one of those things.

And, um, so I'm, I thought she was

gonna talk about something else, but I

thought that's, that's a great example

because it's true is, is, um, as you

think about any type of like, you know,

trait that we have with each other,

how do you integrate with one another?

And how do you make sure that

whatever, you know, personal

ticks or, you know, aspect of it

doesn't cause a lot of

stress on the other side.

Um, I think for me, one of the things

that I kind of wish I learned earlier

on, um, relates to that, but it's around

being respectful about our differences.

I think when we first started working

early on, um, I talk fast, I think

fast, I do a lot of different things.

I also had a few years ahead of her

in my career, um, because I was like,

The writing was on the wall, right?

I dropped out of school.

I had three different career shifts

within a course of 12 years, right?

It's like,

John and Connie: Read the room.

John and Jenn: It's like, no

hints at all along the way, right?

It's not like I was dropping it

at her just to pick up the slack.

But, but the broader point was like,

um, Because I had the dynamic going

into the initial working relationship,

it meant that, um, you know, the first

company I was building incorrectly.

So I kept being the

smartest person in the room.

And I say that with quotes

because I wasn't right.

It's, it's, and even if I was technically

smart, there's a lot of aspects about

business that you cannot lead with that.

And I know that now, right.

And it was through a painful process

of, you know, a lot of, a lot of

late nights and a lot of fights,

but over the course of the years.

As you know, she learned about

my traits and learned about

our strengths and weaknesses.

I learned to be respectful about the

skills that says she brought to the

table that weren't directly based

on technical skills of being a coder

or being a designer of those type of

things because she didn't have that

background, nor is she supposed to.

And where that plays out really well,

especially in the current business

that we have today is our different

perspectives in thinking about we're

advertising to a wide breadth of people.

people, right?

If I talk too fast and that rubs

people in the wrong way or sends

it, that's a certain preference.

She balances out really well.

If I have a certain trait about thinking

about things in a certain way, she

provides a counterpoint to that very well.

When we're selling products, if I'm

not the end consumer, because you know,

I'm a male demographic focusing on

these type of products and I understand

messaging from these type of messages,

she'll look at things from a very subtle

level and be like, Hey, notice that.

Yeah.

That's really important and that

will completely overlook and so being

respectful of the other person's

strengthening weaknesses and helping them

encourage and flourishing that I think

that's hugely valuable and it's one of

the things that we haven't gotten to like

multi generational, you know, running

a business as a family in that sense.

Um, but it makes me think a lot

about, you know, whether if our

kids work in this business or not.

You know, hopefully not, maybe they're

only doing their own thing to explore,

but helping them encourage and flourish

in their own way that are unique to them,

I think is something that I, I, I wish

more people recognize and hear about.

That we took many years of very painful

conversations and late nights to get

past, which I'm glad we got past now.

Um, but it's one of those things

where it was very easy to overlook.

Right.

John and Connie: Exactly.

I couldn't say it any better.

Wow.

Yeah, we can relate.

Yeah, because I'm dyslexic.

So I look at the world entirely different

than he does and he's a perfectionist.

They don't necessarily go together.

John and Jenn: Yes.

Works when it

John and Connie: Well, and even Even

to go to the labels of strengths and

weaknesses, you have to tread lightly.

Because, you know, what's um,

what can seem like a weakness

can actually be a strength.

You know, it's kind of situational.

Like you said, you know, in a

chaotic situation, um, you know,

she's, to be able to figure a way

through much faster than I am.

I know for spatial relationships,

that's a different kind of chaos.

But like, when we were younger,

we were going to pack a car

full of stuff to go on a trip.

I'd look at the pile of stuff and I'd

look at the car and I'd say, You're

going to have to take some stuff back.

It's not going.

And she'd look at it and

say, Oh yeah, it'll fit.

And she was always right.

Always right.

And those kind of things, you know, I just

had to learn to appreciate and not fight.

He still fights, but I just ignore him.

John and Jenn: Once in a while.

It'll come around.

John and Connie: There was a book

John and Jenn: but

John and Connie: ago, Men are from

Mars, Women are from Venus, and that

really helped me level up on that scale.

It was an early day, but it helped.

Appreciating the differences.

John and Jenn: Oh, for sure.

And I think for us, it's, it's

again, hard in a, uh, family setting,

because even if you recognize the

strengths and weaknesses of a regular

business partner, it gets personal.

And so when you see the other person's

weaknesses, to not fault them, take

them to a fault and to associate that

with things outside of your life, it's,

it's, that's another can of worms too.

But it's because it's, it's one

of those things where, again, Um,

having strengths and weaknesses is

an important trait of any leadership

or any position in business.

But in a family setting is to not,

um, appreciate the person's strength

and not, you know, taking the role or

fighting over it or that kind of thing

is one aspect of it that would come up.

But the other aspect of it is on the

weakness side that you don't, um,

take it on that person personally.

It's, it's, it's, it's, there's an element

of that, that it's very easy because like

you said, When you're done at work, next

thing you know, you're going on a road

trip and you have to pack the car and to

carry that emotion or that, or that mental

understanding of the other person and

separating that within that environment.

And then going back to work the

next day afterwards, it's like,

tough

John and Connie: It is.

It is tough.

I love what, you know, you said

at the beginning, it's not for

the faint of heart, and it's not.

It's not.

But, you know, it's, there's that,

I come from an investing side, so

you know, there's risk and reward.

The

John and Jenn: yes,

John and Connie: more

reward, there's more risk.

It's gonna happen.

John and Jenn: Absolutely when it works.

John and Connie: And when

it works, it's amazing.

John and Jenn: Yes.

John and Connie: Wow.

Um, do you guys, you don't have

any other employees, do you?

Is it just the two of you,

or do you have a team?

John and Jenn: We have employees, we have

a team, , that are, we have, that are

based all over the world right now, , it

didn't used to be that way, we used to

have more, uh, employees co located in

Vancouver, , but the pandemic sort of,

like, shifted that, and so, um, we're,

we're a mix, mix of part time staff,

, and one full time staff and a bunch of

contractors, it's easier in the agency

world to, to fluctuate based on demand

and, , your sales velocity to manage

fulfillment in a contract and setting.

And so we've got the infrastructure

now that we didn't have before.

Um, and so in terms of

roles now, we're still.

Both handling account

management and fulfillment.

So we're still involved with the day

to day operations of the business.

And I lean more on the sales

side and she's more on the

marketing side of the business.

And, um, when we first talked about,

you know, the operations of the

business that we bought and owned.

Um, and so like 80 percent of the

time, it's still most on the agency.

The 20 percent time is on the venture

and we have a general manager effectively

that takes care of operations of

those businesses that we meet with a

regular basis, um, to make sure that

things are still running smoothly.

So that's our current setup right now.

John and Connie: Nice.

Cool.

Is there, is there anything in

particular that you've learned

from one of your employees that's

John and Jenn: Oh, lots.

I mean, so I think I'll talk about

the hiring process and I think

that might be true for any general

business, not just for family business.

, I think the thing about hiring and,

and leadership really, , is that, you

know, any great hire should be better

at you in their respective roles.

And for an agency, it's a little bit

harder because in the, , when you're

selling a service and you're selling labor

effectively, um, You have to be bringing,

you're basically arbitraging talent.

And so what it means is that generally

for a marketing agency, you're bringing

in more junior and intermediate

employees and then finding ways to

make sure that they incentivize to

stay with you medium to long term.

And so in terms of me learning from my

employees, I think, you know, for me,

it's about, , knowing how to step away

and delegate and be, uh, so I talked about

earlier, you teach what you need to learn.

Um, um, I think the staff and the team

has helped me, um, articulate a lot

of the functional processes that we're

doing that we've internalized that we

otherwise would not have been able to.

And so seeing them do better in each

of the respective roles than what

we would have done individually.

Um, that's, that's

always really rewarding.

Any business owner can say that, uh, can,

can, can understand and appreciate that.

Um, and so I think that's, um,

maybe it should be more specific.

One thing that I learned

from them, but I think.

You know, broadly, you

know, very general sense.

Um, that's been my experience bringing

people in and having them seeing them

thrive in our environment because

primarily we've been hiring people that

are earlier into careers has been really

rewarding and very fulfilling for me.

And, um, maybe I'll come back to

like a more specific lesson or

thing that I learned from them,

but Jenn, you have anything?

I think I'm going to build

upon just the delegation part.

I think indirectly you've kind

of learned how to delegate more.

And I think when we started the business,

it's just us, just you and I, right?

So it's, it was more so that like,

okay, we can bring on everything and

anything that we can actually do.

We always believe that we can

actually go through with it.

Um, Make things happen.

Um as we grow as a company as we grow

as a team We slowly had to learn how to

delegate Parts of the business and parts

of the task parts of the projects to

other people and it's really hard It's

it's it's a growing It's like a growing

up process to as a business owner to now

switching to be being being leadership

and being management um in time in that

like You need to have a you need to let

go and know how to let go when to let go

of like okay It's okay You need to put

this piece to that person and trust in

that person that they can actually go

and fulfill whatever they need to do um

now our Now that our team Um have worked

with us for quite a bit of time now up

to a year to three years now uh Some team

members have now know the dynamics between

him and I and know exactly when to just

like, Hey, do not involve John or like

let John know that no, you cannot do this.

Let me take care of it and then teach

him how to actually delegate and be okay.

It's like, no, I don't

need you to do this.

I just need you to make a decision

when I give you two, two options.

You choose one, please kind of thing.

Um, I think that's that helped

him a lot in terms of, Yeah.

Being aware of his, uh, leadership role

and how he can actually be improving

his leadership at that time, uh,

for, for being delegating that way.

But it's also to be more self aware for

him of his ADHD is because he wants to,

like, he, he wants, he knows he needs

to be a better leader, but he doesn't

quite know exactly how to actually let

go of certain things and prioritizing

what to let go and what not to let go.

Um, I think the team right now

have, found a really good soft spot

to know exactly where to involve

him and when not to involve him.

They know when to ask me for things

and they know when to ask Jenn for it

because John's not going to respond.

John's not going to respond for like days.

So, I think that part have helped and

as for me, I've learned really quickly

to delegate and I was like, I can't do

everything I've always been the one that's

doing like operations and marketing and

like, you know All the tasks that needs to

be done for the agent, uh for the for the

clients themselves as well for execution

so now That I have a lot more help,

I'm like, okay, I'm really trusting

to actually just let them go

through it when they are stuck.

I know I need to be a backup for it,

but I'm like, okay, but I'm not going

to give you all the silver spoon and

put everything into the instructions.

Like, can you go and figure it out for me?

I'm not going to give you

the instruction for it.

How about you give me a proposal

of one to two different options

and then let me out the rest or,

or evaluate what your options were.

Um, That never been that that never been

something I've done previously either.

I also had to go through a piece a lesson

to kind of let go and like trust the

team to kind of figure out some things.

And the biggest shift is because

my mental capacity was like just

over the top 110 percent already.

I can't.

I can't stuff more things in there.

Like I really need to actually lower

my mental capacity and that's the

biggest mental shift for myself.

It's like, Nope, I'm not going

to try to solve this problem.

I'm going to tell them these are

the results and these are the

things that I'm trying to solve.

Can you go and figure it out for me

and then come back with some options?

Uh, that, that's the growing part

of how we're dealing with the

team and how the team is actually

dealing with us at the moment.

John and Connie: So much

John and Jenn: Well said.

John and Connie: Yes, so much there.

Wow.

So, on one level, I heard so much

you said about early in that about

delegation would also apply to a

founder, trying to navigate the early

parts of succession because there's, you

know, very similar thought processes.

You know, they've, they've been doing it.

They know how to do it.

They know they can do it their certain

way and they have to learn to trust.

And, and part of that trust is

knowing that people are going to

make mistakes and we have to be,

you have to be okay with that too.

And they got to make their mistakes

in order for them to learn.

Cause you're, you know, you're, that's

part of them, how, how they recover

from the mistakes is then what,

how you learn to trust them more.

And, and the other thing you were

talking about, uh, reminded me of, uh,

have you heard of, uh, Dale Carnegie?

John and Jenn: Yes.

John and Connie: one of

John and Jenn: Do.

Mm-Hmm,

John and Connie: techniques that he

published in his book so many years

ago was, you know, when somebody

comes to him with a problem, he, you

know, if it's not, "Okay, tell me

your problem and I'll fix it for you."

It's no, , if you're going

to come to me with a problem,

here's a form you fill out.

What's the problem?

What do you think?

Uh, what are some several possible

solutions and what do you think is

the best possible solution and why?

And you bring that to me

filled out and we'll talk.

And you kind of described that

process in your, you know,

in how you learn to delegate.

Ha

John and Jenn: But we should systemize

it though, because we actually

never thought about it that way.

That was all like organic in the

way we, I actually systemized, I

read a book that actually clearly.

But it is very, very similar.

And I think it's very important to

us, a young company that started as a

startup to grow into a next phase of

their company and the next phase of the

company, if you are only thinking about,

okay, well, we're, we're the best of

what we do and we, we we're holding on

everything so tightly and not really

sharing the, the responsibilities and

the tasks and everything that, that the

roles, um, you'll always be just the

two of you and your business won't grow.

You really want it.

That that's totally fine.

If you actually want to grow a business

just for the two of you, and there's a

lifestyle business that way, but if you

have bigger ambition to actually grow

a business and grow it bigger, uh, with

better, with, with more team members.

And as.

As a higher, higher, a bigger company,

then you need to think about changing

of the roles and how you're going to

actually have passed down the baton to

somebody else to actually go through.

No, I'm not going to do

with finances anymore.

Hey, Grace, can you take this on?

And like, you know, you just need

to meet with me once a month, every

two weeks to actually go through

all the P& L and all the things.

Therefore, I can actually go back

to my CEO to actually talk about

those finances, the high level stuff.

But now you're shifting your role very

differently from where you started.

Five six seven years

ago to now you're okay.

Now you're a different stage of company

You have to you need to be able to

actually shift that mindset As you grow

as a team as you grow as a company and the

team Team members that you hire on board

also need to know that is the end goal.

That is the like north

star We're trying to get to

John and Connie: too.

You know, this is, this is where,

you know, sharing that, this

is our, you know, direction.

And, and, you know, someday you,

you, we may sell and you may be

working for somebody else or, you

know, whatever, that's, that's huge.

I, I was also thinking that, you know,

sometimes people grow a business like

that and they find themselves in a

role where they miss doing the work.

They miss those early days.

And so they actually sell the

company and then go start another

one and start over small so they

can get their hands dirty again.

And that's okay too, right?

John and Jenn: For sure

John and Connie: They do it with

a lot more money in their pocket,

usually, so they can even enjoy, enjoy

those early days much more without

having to sweat the little stuff.

John and Jenn: I'm

retired, now what do I do?

Let's

go find some work

John and Connie: There you go.

This has been wonderful.

It has been.

So, um, my last question is always,

you know, where can people contact you?

I think I need to modify that a little,

a little bit into who should contact

you, like what type of business,

and then where should they find you?

John and Jenn: for sure.

And I appreciate that plug.

Um, so you can find us at 2X.Agency.

That's the website URL.

So the HTTPS, uh, two X dot agency.

Um, you'll find our agency site and

you'll learn about our different services,

primarily in ad creative production.

So if you're creating video ads or

what's called UGC ads where users

generated content ads, We primarily

work with e commerce and software

companies, as Jenn alluded to earlier.

But in some cases we might have

some B2B software companies that are

looking for lead generation efforts.

So if you're looking for, um, more

customers or more leads, um, generally

they're good to have a discussion with us.

Um, they generally need to be, uh,

A bit further along where they have

existing sales and existing customers.

So we can have data to look at

to know how to improve whatever

metrics and systems that they have.

Um, but that's the place to find us.

Um, you know, personally you can

connect with us on Twitter and LinkedIn.

So, you know, I'm John Chan on LinkedIn.

There's a lot of us on there,

but if you look for that under

two X you'll probably find me.

Um, and on Twitter I'm at J T C C H A N.

I'm sure these will be links in the show

notes that I'll send over to you as well.

Um, but I think that's the

best way to reach out to me.

For me, for myself, it's LinkedIn as well.

Jennifer Lo.

Um, Jennifer.

Yeah.

I think it's Jennifer Lo.

Um, and then, uh, on Twitter, uh,

Jenn Lo underscore with two Ns.

So you can probably reach me there.

No,

John and Connie: that and

get it in the show notes.

Yeah.

This has been so much fun.

I'm so glad we did this.

Thank you!

I want

John and Jenn: thank you for having us on.

John and Connie: I wanna go to

Vancouver now and have dinner.

John and Jenn: Yes.

Well, next time we're in Tampa,

we also can actually come over

John and Connie: Oh yes, if you

come to Tampa, please let us know.

Yeah, we would love to see you anytime.

John and Jenn: Thank you for having us.

John and Connie: let's stay in touch.

John and Jenn: Absolutely.

For sure.