Cool. And now remind me, you have one, just one child,

Cedar. Do you have any other kids? Yeah, one son,

Cedar, almost 4. And this is the year

we're going to have a second. Not pregnant right now, but we're

deciding. We're all about conscious conceiving. And so this is the

year. We have our month planned out of when we're going to open the

doors. Was that a decision that you and

your— your wife is named Courtney? Courtney. Courtney.

Okay, perfect. Were you guys certain right off the bat that you wanted to have

two, or is this something that you've just— it's evolved and gotten more clear as,

you know, as time's gone on? She was certain that there was going to be

two. I was— how I describe it is I was hanging on

to the banks of the river and I wasn't letting go, and I had

my heels in, just not feeling ready. And then once

I finally, you know, started to trust God and let go of

the banks, it's, yeah, it's so easy to see

you were meant to have two. Very cool. What, uh, if I

could ask, you know, what has it been that had you— I love

that analogy, holding on to the banks. Is it, was that just your perspective

throughout life? You just wanted to have one, or what was it about that that

created that holding on to maybe not having two? Oh

dude, in my 20s, in my first marriage, I—

before it, I wanted kids. I knew that in my heart of hearts,

like, just from a very young age. And then I got married

and I was terrified of it. And I said, I'm never having

kids. And then I

woke up to just how much of that was my material of

resistance and unintegrated material that

was also wise. I would have traumatized the hell out of my

kid if I had been a father in my 20s. And so,

you know, when I look at my life now,

I've had to do a certain level of work. I had to

move through a process of, you know, what I work with men on is

taking them through the process of initiation. Once I

did that in myself, then it was easy to actually

feel the wisdom of life, what it was inviting for me that is,

you know, in service to my highest evolution.

It was easy to see once I did the work and once I continued to

do the work, because once we become a father, as you know,

the work is never ending. It doesn't ever stop. It doesn't stop.

These little mirrors that are constantly poking

all the places that haven't been processed and integrated.

And like, what a gift when it's seen

that way. And so for me, I think

my partner Courtney was so clear in the

desire that was moving through her. I say the wisdom of her womb,

which is like the portal from life itself, was saying,

I'm so ready. And she was patient with me for

3 years. Actually, the day our son was born, she

looked at me and she said, I want to have another baby. I was like,

whoa, whoa, whoa, pump the brakes, sweetie.

You're not even in a physical state right now. But

what she said to me is, she just— the, the veil was so

thin she felt them. And she's been patiently

waiting for me to get more ready, uh,

for the second one. And it was within the last month or so

of actually doing a really deep, um, healing

session with other men that brought me into the, oh my

God, this is my stuff. I'm just afraid. I'm

afraid of what this next initiation is. And then

once I looked at that, I let go of the bank of the river. And

now it's the most enjoyable experience

accepting what life is inviting, knowing that it's not what my

head had me believe, which is I'm going to be an

absolute mess and this is going to ruin my life. I won't be able to

hold it. It's actually turned into, oh, this is the thing that

actually pushes me into my mission even more.

Yeah, that, that makes a lot of sense, especially with the work you're doing on

initiation. One thing I'm curious about on that

topic, so we hear a lot from guys and I

don't know if I would've said this, you'd have to really sit with this, but

when you hear guys say, I'm not ready, I'm not ready to have

kids, who the fuck is really ready? I don't know. But I'm just

curious to hear your thoughts and your perspective, especially with the work that you're doing.

And I'd love to unpack what does initiation look like for

you? What does it look like for men who are choosing that now? Maybe didn't

grow up with that like a lot of us didn't. But when you hear, I'm

not ready, What would you say to a man, or how would

you, uh, go down that, that thought process and unpack that?

Whenever I hear from a man that

I'm not ready, I'm always curious of what's the

material that hasn't been integrated from childhood

that is seeing reality from a certain

perspective that's showing up as resistance.

Not to say that it's always resistance. Sometimes they're just— the align—

the, the actual invitation of that moment is to

say no, to not do the thing. Maybe there actually isn't a readiness.

But often if men are married and are

in the situation where it's so clear life is inviting to have a

child, but they say they're not ready, 95% of

the time that I— of working with men and being in my own experience of

this, there's just so much internalized fear

of becoming their father. So it's usually so much

unintegrated material of the role that life

is inviting them into that they're unconsciously

projecting onto themselves, thinking, I'm

going to suck at this. I'm going to, I'm going to hurt my kid just

the same way I was hurt. And it's— that's the thing of what they're saying

they're not ready for. It's not that they're not actually

ready. The little part of them, the boy inside is

saying, I'm not ready. I don't want to be left behind.

It's usually the invitation to scoop that part up, go through

initiation to integrate that part, to grow it up so that it

can feel actually how ready that man is.

I feel that. I feel, I mean, even with, I would say, I

mean, obviously it's not all men, but most men coming to men's work,

have— I mean, we all do in some respect— but have challenges around

father. There's something in the father that needs to be looked at,

addressed, integrated, or even just appreciated. Like, a lot of guys come

into men's work, they're just like, fuck my dad, this. And I'm like, whoa, whoa,

whoa, whoa, okay, okay, we'll process that too. And

I imagine there is something, and I think that's a part of the

healing journey with father stuff, is to also acknowledge like,

what is the beauty in that? Or what did he offer you? I mean, if

anything, he gave you in part a life too. What

does initiation look like for you as you're guiding? Because, you know,

we hear a lot about initiation today, right? And society just isn't

set up for that. So what does that look like? Fatherhood, for sure, that

is an initiation. What does that look like as you're guiding men through that?

Initiation is the— I call it the descent. There's

so many men that are living from the head. They're reading more

books, they're listening to the podcast, they care so much.

But initiation is actually dropping from the head into the

heart, doing the descent into this physical body,

the journey that it's already experienced

that hasn't fully integrated. If a man shows

up in front of me on a discovery call as an example, and they're telling

me the situation that they're in, afraid of losing their

wife. They have everything on the outside, you

know, everyone else thinks that they've got it made, but inside they're actually,

if they're real with themselves, feeling broken, lost, scared, alone.

That is a byproduct of not integrating

the life that's already been lived. So

initiation is going into the body and allowing the

wisdom of the nervous system and everything that it's stored in

all the right places, just in and the brilliance of how

it knows how to do freeze, shut down,

numb out certain parts of ourselves so that if we bump

up against those ingredients that hurt us in the first

place relationally,

those defense strategies take over. Initiation

is getting down into the body

in a relationally in-tuned setting

where that material can start to take up

more space and express. Because if it does,

and there is relational attunement, the nervous

system will turn on in its healthy blueprint and it will

integrate. It will start to share the story that maybe has been

blocked out their whole life. This is where people will have, you know, in session

flashbacks of, oh my God, I didn't even know that I was

molested or this or that. And it all

starts to happen in the relational space

when attunement's available, because now there's resource.

If there's resource, the body will just integrate. This is the whole

phrase of everyone is their own healer. Yet,

yes, and where so many men get

stuck is they don't experience

initiation with other men, mentors, guides.

And they try to do it on their own. But the whole thing is

relationally. At some point, wounding happened

in the relationship and the healing has to happen in relationship.

There needs to be the ingredient. This goes into Dan Siegel's work.

The highest levels of integration and maturity

come from us being able to make sense

of our history. Us being able to integrate what's already

happened to us. And we need relationship for that.

And we need attunement for that to happen. Can you define

attunement? I'm sorry, can you define attunement for us? Yeah. Yeah. So in attunement,

if I'm working with a man, I'll use today as an example. I'm working with

a client and I do these 6-month containers.

My work in that container is to be

so present in my own body and experience, do all of the

practices and the things that I need to do so that I can be so

present to the man in front of me's experience, to start

to feel and hear and see the story

that hasn't been told. So attunement practically looks

like, what's happening when the man starts to tell this story?

What's the, what's the energy or the belief behind this

story or the words that he's using? What's this actually

trying to express? Because this isn't— if somebody, if a

man's in front of me and they're talking about you know,

so-and-so like doesn't care about me or this or that. And,

and they're really charged up about this person. It's not about

the person. The person is representing something. So if

I can attune to that and start to get curious of

what's going on for the little guy in this man,

what's the language and the theme of what I'm noticing over time? This is

why I do containers, because Sometimes it takes

weeks or months to start to notice

what's the energy behind the words. What's their body language

expressing that's been missed? Like, is there a place

where all of a sudden they go small? Is there a place where they go

silent and glaze over? Are they dissociating? Attunement is

noticing the language of the body,

noticing what it's expressing or trying to say.

And then bringing in the ingredient that was missing when

all of that coping strategy or defense mechanism showed up.

What was the missing ingredients back there?

Attunement is bringing those ingredients in so that that

healthy inner healer can start to turn on

again and start to then feel safe enough of, oh,

I'm actually going to share the thing that all of a

sudden I now have a memory of. Now I'm actually going to let myself

grieve and cry or get pissed and angry and say

the thing I didn't get to say to, you know, Johnny, my

neighbor, or my mom or my dad or my sibling. Once that

energy can move out of the body and express and

be received, then there's

relief. That energy's now been liberated from the body. So

attunement is following those threads. To really

help a person simply feel seen, heard, and

understood. If they legitimately feel

that, they will heal, they will grow up, they will

mature in those places. Wow, I

love that. And I love that you're bringing the

perspective that the initiation happens in the relational space,

because it might not be the— and I've talked about this so many times on,

on my podcast— but it might not be the sole reason why guys are showing

up to the work that I offer, but but it's in 90-plus percent of the

convos that men feel lonely,

right? They feel isolated. And so that

even the ones that have been really diving in, like trying to do this work

on their own, which is great, and there's only so

much that we can do on our own. And that's why what you're

bringing to the table, the groups that just laser— and I

love that, just you being fully present 100% with this

man, for this man, and also dialing in on what he isn't saying

and what's being communicated, I think is invaluable. And that's what we get to experience

in the relational space. Okay,

the real topic that I was so— what I'm all excited about, all of it,

to dive in with you. But I, I, if I were to, you know, well,

I'm sure we're going to do more than these, uh, more than this just podcast,

but I have a deep curiosity right

now, and in my own life and in the men that I'm working with, of

the masculine in relationship. And so

what I'd love to unpack with you is what does it look like

when a man is— let's see, let's start with the unhealthy

versions. When— what does it look like in relationship with, with

a partner when a man is bringing his unhealthy versions of the

masculine in relationship? And then we'll do the light and the shadow and

keep driving from there. Yeah, so the

shadow expression. And I want to start with, there's no bad

or wrong. Shadow isn't bad or wrong. It's, it's a

phase of evolution as being a man. And I want to

emphasize that first, because over the

years, the thing that I feel the most with men

is the amount of internalized shame.

Men actually care so fucking much.

And want to show up so much. And

some of the challenge that makes the shadow bigger

is the internalized shame. So I just want to highlight that

when we talk about shadow and the way that I see it expresses—

shadow's challenge, that's what shadow is. It's just the

challenged part of our human experience. And the way that I see it and the

way that it expresses in relationship to the feminine specifically is

freezing, shutting down,

withdrawing, wanting to take more space,

sitting in the room but completely off in another

world when their partner's talking, getting really

defensive or deflective when

the feminine speaks. And this isn't gender-specific. I'm just,

you know, my invitation when I share this is place your own

experience in this. I'm just talking about my orientation.

You know, defending, deflecting if the partner starts to share

instead of actually getting curious and opening and

hearing what they're expressing. Putting their piece right on top

is another shadow expression of the masculine. Like they just immediately

make whatever they're sharing about themselves.

Gaslighting is another one, telling them that what they're feeling or

saying isn't true. Tracking for facts is

another shadow expression of the masculine. When the feminine's sharing,

they're just— while they're sharing, they're looking for the logic of it and where

things don't make sense, and that's not true, and actually this.

And just reactivity. You know, a shadowy man is

reactive. And reactive isn't always, you know, how it can show up for

me sometimes is anger and you know,

getting snippy or cold. But for some, reactivity is

that they're shutting down and withdrawing from the relationship.

That's a, that's a reactive response. And so shadow

expression of the masculine is reaction, reactivity.

I love that nuance because that, that pattern of just the withdrawing and the shutting

down, that would be my personal pattern because I would say growing

up, the overt reactivity, the explosive, has never really felt safe.

And so I went in the opposite direction. And so I love that nuance

there. On the flip side, what does it mean, look like, and

feel like when a man is embodied in his— a

healthy masculine in relationship? Yeah, I love this.

The healthy masculine, I love to define with the 3

C's. That's clarity, confidence, and

charisma. A man that is clear in

the direction that he's going and he's confident

in the direction that he's going and can express his full

personality, which is charisma, that's a healthy,

mature man. And how this looks in relationship is it's

the man who— and I just want to highlight, I don't do this

perfect. I mess this up all the time. That's why I've devoted my whole life

to it. Me too. Yeah. I'm a

forever student. I will practice this

daily. But when I do do it well, is

it's the man who can show up with

so much connection to his own body that

he can feel his feet on the floor and he feels good with his

feet on the floor. And when his partner goes to share and express

and be exactly what she was designed to be, which is

forever change, the great mystery, to be

expressing her light and what's emerging through her.

A healthy, mature man can see the reverence for

that forever change, its unpredictability.

It can— a mature man appreciates it and can

feel the honor of being in proximity to it

and be curious of what's going to come and know

that the role of the

masculine relationship to this, a mature man, will

get really curious of how to reflect back that

brilliance, how to reflect back the, the

beauty. Because the feminine essence inside where so many women are

feeling hurt is they're not feeling seen.

What they want to be seen in is their beauty, the light that's

expressing through them in a unique way. A mature man sees

that, understands that that's the name of the game, and mirrors it

back regularly. A mature man offers

praise consistently. Can you model that? Like,

what— for a man listening, like, what could that look like? Praise or mirroring it

back, like her brilliance, her radiance? What could that sound like? What could that look

like for a guy? Yeah, last night I was

driving home from Men's Circle and I had all these audio messages from

my wife, and she was just sharing, sharing all the things that

she's just learning about in herself and what

she's feeling and places that she's wanting us to be

connected and allies. And when she

shared those messages, you know, there was a part of me in some of

them like, oh, I want to say this. And I don't know. Well, I don't

know if that's going to work. And then to help her really feel

seen, it's me breathing in and noticing that part of

me, settling down, and then finding that

truth in me of, God, you know, practically, this is how it ends up

looking. Send a message back. Oh my God, sweetie, thank you

for letting me feel you. God, it

feels so good to be let in on the things

that are so important to you right now. I

love being in life with you. I love how much you care about our son.

I love that you're tracking this piece around homeschool and that you're gonna do

this Anki training. Like, thank you for tending that part of

our home. Wow, it's such a gift for our son

to to have a mama who is so

intentionally trying to create the world around him where he can

grow up and develop in his God-given gifts. Thank you

for bringing that to our home.

That is— I can

imagine on the other end of that, like I was feeling into that as you

were sharing, I was like, Goddamn, I feel— I feel so good listening. You know,

I'm like, yeah. And, uh,

you know what, man, there's so much that I'd love to keep

diving into on this. How can I quickly— Mike, speak

to that? Yeah, please, please, please. Such a beautiful moment. Yeah, this is— yeah, it's

what you. Just shared there of what you were feeling. This is the thing

there I want to differentiate from gender. When I'm talking

about masculine and feminine energy or essences, how you hear me

speak about it, every man also has feminine

essence inside of him, and it's the part that also

wants to be seen. It wants to be in the feeling

experience of life. And so I just wanted to name that, and

you can feel if that's true for you. I know that in myself is

the feminine essence in me also wants to feel life. This is

the gift of the feminine invites us into, is

if we learn how to embody these gifts and offer it for them to be

seen, it actually you know, reverberates back into the

part of us where we didn't get related to in that way. That's

what feels good. That's what brings us into more

intimate connection. And I don't know about you, but I always feel

better when there's more intimacy in the connection. I'll tell

you right now, just even as you're speaking to this, like

tuning into my own heart, it softened and is softer

immediately. Like, it felt so good to I was putting myself in the

shoes of your wife and like, man, this feels really good. Like, I feel more,

even more connected to my heart right now. And

that's a level of nourishment that I think, yeah, all of us, all of our

feminines, to your point, is craving and just feels so

good in those moments. Like, for example,

Courtney shares, you said you got multiple messages.

And I really do appreciate how you gave voice humbly to

you're not perfect. You're part of why you do this work very much

like me is because this is

just what we're called to do. And it's a continual process. And

I just really resonate with that humbleness right there and the

curiosity and the childlike and the continued process of this.

If, for example, if she gives you a message, and in one of those 5

messages, there's 1, 2, or 3 things that you're like, ooh, like,

no, no, no, no. Like, who knows? That training cost $20,000.

How the fuck are we going to afford $20,000? You want to support? In

those moments, if and when you get lit up and stuff,

what is your inclination? What's your process like

under the hood? And would that change, adapt, adjust how

you might praise or what you might follow up with her in?

Yeah. This is where I lean

into, you know, and I'll share with your audience here this— I

call it the AIR protocol. And this is where, you know,

A stands for awareness, I stands for

interrupt, and R stands for release.

And so what I lean into in these moments is

I— if, if something in me starts to become activated

I want to bring awareness to my physical experience

first and foremost. Like, what am I reacting to?

Can I feel what— whoa, what's going on? Whoa, my breathing just changed.

Shit. Like, wow. Whoa, my belly just contracted. Now I'm feeling defensive.

Like, oh, okay. And I'll do something to interrupt

that. I'll interrupt it either by like

rolling down the window or putting on some music or

clenching my fists or something to interrupt. My brain's just

remembering something, something of what she shared or the

energy she's embodying. I'm sensitive to

my being is feeling it and it's remembering. It's usually implicit

memory, all these flooding experiences that weren't safe

with similar ingredients. And then I interrupt it with the,

with that. Sometimes I'll, you know, if

people were watching me in my day-to-day life, often I'll go like this and I'll

just start— for those of you who can't see the video, I'm like rubbing my

forehead or start to rub my cheeks. I bring some

sort of gentle sensation to soothe myself.

That tells— that gives my brain new information.

And then what I'll start to do is then I go to R, which is

release. If there's any survival energy, you know, for me, I

resonate with you, sometimes I can go into the shutdown And so I'll

bring in life energy. I know that collapse— part of the thing to heal collapse

is engaging life energy intentionally. And so

sometimes I'll shake or I'll just like, ah, or I'll just growl

or something. I'll just move it. And then I'll go back and

I'll re-listen to the message. And every time I

re-listen to it, there's something in there for me that

I haven't been seeing that's a gift for me. Every time.

There's something in her energy where what she's saying is, Mike,

there's a part of you that is not embodying your full potential,

and I see it and it's freaking me out.

I'm losing my shit. And if I can recognize

whatever that piece is— and this can look in so you many, know, there's so

many different ways that this can go, but I'll use a common

one. I'll feel what she's saying behind

the words. Men default want to find the logic of what

the facts are here and then defend it. Like, no, wait, no, that's not

true. We know it's bolster up or something.

But I'll actually just feel what she's saying behind it, which is

often, I'm feeling uneasy and scared. Can you hold that

in me and reassure me that everything's okay? So then I'll

acknowledge Once I release whatever's came up in

me, I come back, you know, once I've received the air in my own

being, I come back and acknowledge what I'm

sensing she's saying behind the words. And that

acknowledgement settles her. She's like, oh, he sees me. Oh, what a

relief. He's in there enough to see me. And then

I'll offer some bit of reassurance,

not defense, just reassuring. God, I can really

hear that you're concerned about this $20,000 investment

in this coaching program. Okay. Yeah, that's real.

That matters to me. How about when I get home,

let's, you know, after Cedar goes to bed, let's just

cuddle on the couch. And, you know, one of our golden rules that

we teach couples is connection before communication. I'll

lead her with, hey, why don't we go just cuddle on the couch, put some

music on, and then I'd love to explore this. I'd love to

hear, you know, maybe, maybe we don't do it

right now. Maybe it isn't wise. Let's, let's explore this together.

And then I'll come back with that part in me that's more settled,

that's not also now freaked out because she's freaking out.

And that's one that I catch myself in all the time, you know. God, I—

if you're following me in in my, my world, if I'm under-resourced in any

way, I do wobble. And then I do,

you know, she comes in with some unease, she's testing I joke

about this, and this comes from David Deida's work. It's like the feminine will never

stop poking and testing. Like, can you hold this? Do you have

it? Are you like, are you

confident? Really? Like, can't— like, is this real? Or like, can— if

with my little 10% wave of emotion, are you going to just lose your

shit? And then, then I have the evidence of I knew you didn't got it.

You didn't. Why is that? Why is that, Mike? Why are they— why is the

feminine constantly testing from your experience? Why is that? Yeah, man.

If there's two ways that I like to look at it, one way is I'd

say there's just the simple primal

reason, which is if she chose— if

a woman chose a mate back in the day, like imagine

for all of you listening, just imagine we're back in the days where we're in

a village and the prime way of living is survival,

surviving the elements, just eating enough to make it through the

seasons. If, if a woman is

choosing a partner to procreate with, she needs to know that that

dude's got tone and resilience. Because if

he doesn't and the elements and seasons come

and a tiger comes in and he just collapses and shuts down, guess what? She's

going to fucking die. Her kids are going to die.

That's a really vulnerable position

to be in. And so at the primal level, at the nervous system

level, it's for their own survival. They need a man who's got some grit,

who can be with the discomfort and the vicissitudes of

life, which is the ups and downs of life. She needs to know that

that's there. That's who she was back in the day going to choose as a

partner. She wants strength. She wants like, you know, are

you here? And then I'd say the other part that I look at this is

on the spiritual side. And I'd say

women are wanting a man who is honoring his

true biological nature. And that is

masculine essence is designed to

expand in consciousness. If

it doesn't expand in consciousness, that organism

is imploding in a way. It's actually

slowly dying. And that's scary for

the feminine because the whole reason she chose the partner she chose is

she's seeing the potential of that man. And she

wants to feel the man in alignment with

his duty of living his life, bringing his God-given

gifts. This is my— the way that I see it anyways, and how I coach

my clients is let's get you connected to your God-given gifts

so that you are clear on the path to bring those

to humanity that is in some way of service. Because

your deepest fulfillment, satisfaction, freedom is when you

are doing that. Because the man you have to become

to be in service to your mission and other people is a man who is

forever expanding in his consciousness. Because if we're not, we

actually can't relate with other people that are different. We'll

project where our differences are and we'll get stuck on certain things. But if

a man wants to lead well, he's going to have to

challenge all of the beliefs and the paradigms he's adopted. In

order to continue to be an inspiration to other people, he needs to be able

to hold many perspectives of

reality and still have the skill to relate

without having to dominate.

Hmm. Two things come up there. I'll start with the first one.

I'm pretty sure Data said this in The Way of the Superior Man, but I

could be mistaken. He was saying like, a man needs— I'm going to

paraphrase— but a man needs to put his purpose— if a man puts his woman

before his purpose, like, not good.

Or it's like, purpose— man's purpose has to come first. Is that what you

think, or what's your perspective on that? If— where should a man's

priority be, or do you see it just totally different?

Yeah, man, I just have so much,

firstly, just appreciation for David Deida's work in the world.

What a gift that man is. The amount of things that I've learned from

him. I'll use a statement that

I use often, and I'd say, I don't think it's this

or that. I think it's this and that. Oh.

I really do believe that it's very

important, paramount, that a man is

attached to his mission. And even know, if, you if

you're a man listening and you don't know your mission, that's okay. That's the part

of the evolution, accepting where you're at. But being on the

mission to feel and discover the mission— like, what is

wanting to birth through this being? That's the mission. If you don't know it

yet, if you're not clear on what you're here to do and how you're meant

to serve, well, just keep looking. Like, you're doing it.

That's the mission. And

It's so important for a man to be connected to that part of

innate wisdom inside of him, because we all have a mission. That's why we're here.

Like, it's— how could it be anything you different, know,

hurling on this rock through outer space? And it's the only thing

that we know of that has life on it out of billions

of galaxies. Like, of course we're here for something.

So if a man's not connected to that Well, he'll lose

himself in the relationship. But I'd also say

men who are only attached to mission and aren't

seeing that the partnership is a part of the mission,

they will squeeze the life out of their reality.

And this is the men I end up supporting so many times. You know,

I've been— I have had so many men come up to me

who have built the empire. They have millions, multiple

properties. They've built the organization, so much

external success. Some of them, 3, 4 marriages, tens,

gorgeous women, but inside, broken, lost,

alone, confused of

why do their relationships look the way that they do?

Well, there needs to be an understanding

that every relationship that comes to us in life

is inviting us to use the medium of that relationship for

our own awakening. So when I go to

the this and that, I have learned over years

of doing it the old way that didn't work for 10, 13 years.

I just read all the books and I focused on my mission and discovering my

mission and all the things, but then I ended up divorced.

Now I understand Oh my God, my

mission and how I show up in it is actually being

cultivated through me showing up in

service to my partnership.

Because who the man that I become in dancing

with an embodiment of forever change, unpredictability,

waving emotions, unending desires, it seems to be.

Expectations and wants of what I will provide,

you know, yeah, being in relationship to that

every single day is the initiation.

And if I choose to lean into that

instead of try to stay away from it, it's the thing that's actually going

to propel my mission. And this is the whole cool

breakthrough moment. Once a man understands that his

relationship and his mission are the same thing,

the world never looks the same.

Because every day, the gym of

becoming the man that is actually wanted— there's not a man I've sat

down with who doesn't want to feel empowered and

free inside and emotionally grounded and present

and give from an overflowing cup is the term that

I use. Every man I've ever met wants that, but the

way that it happens is turning towards the

relationship, not running from it.

You just articulated so much of

what feels true inside me. Because it's never

really felt like

when I am super purpose-driven, love the work I'm doing,

I can lit up, excited.

I do it for free. It's part of every

aspect of my life. And that articulation

of my wife and our relationship

it's an and, not an either or. Because I've had—

I've butted up against that. It's like, well, as a guy, like, I

want to choose my lane. Like, tell me, you know, tell me what to do,

or I'm going to tell myself what to do. I'm gonna fucking go, right? And

it's felt like two different tracks. I'm like, well, this just doesn't

feel aligned with how I want to lead my life and lead,

you know, my— I don't want there to be separation. I want

I just want to be me in all aspects and follow my heart in all

aspects. And my wife is a part of that. And

that feels really good. And also, as a father, that's

the version of myself that I want my son to feel.

I want him to see that piece. That's why when we lead retreats, my

wife does all the cooking for the retreats that we run, and, uh, which is

amazing because she puts so much love, energy, intention in the

food these guys eat. And they're separate from

the work that we're doing. But my son's come to, I think he's only 3.

So since he's been alive, he's come to every retreat. And it's

one of the coolest things. And I've shared this a bit on the podcast, but

after some of the deep work, when guys come for food to,

like, I love, he's medicine.

He's just this child. He's that reminder. And so to bring him

in in a small way and to like they are my

mission, and which also is with the

guys and all of it. So it's, it's all a part of it. I never

personally realized that I don't want a separation.

Like, in some regards it needs to be there, but also energetically it's

like I'm doing this for us, and that includes my wife, my

son. And I want people to see that and to feel that,

because that's what, at least for me personally, that's what this work's about.

That's what the— like, the men's— and I was— when I— we were— you and

I were going back and forth on messages, and I had shared with you, you

know, one of the reasons I'm so excited and grateful to have you on is

because, you know, again, my curiosity clients, etc.,

I'm realizing in a big way

that, again, there is, in my opinion, no replacement for

men's groups and men's circles, and it's invaluable. Which is why I've made

my life around it. Yeah. And it is a whole nother

skill set and a whole— like, it feels like the

World Series sometimes in terms of how much,

like, it calls me forward and challenges me and

sharpens me and all of it. And I would love,

um, I'd love to hear from you, like, that

gap that guys who are listening that maybe are in a

men's group or are really working on themselves and being very

challenged still in relationship, um,

what would you say to them? Or what would you—

you know, what insight can you offer from your own life and your work of

how to bring the gaps? Or like, I guess, what gaps are there

in guys who are purely into men's work and having difficulty in relationship? And

we'll, we'll start there. One of the

most common— because I, I, I love

being a word ninja. I love to follow

what people are saying and the words that they use. What are they

believing? What's the belief structure that has formed their

reality? And

what I've noticed over the years is there is a common narrative

with a lot of men that their partner

is a place of contention, of frustration,

and the— a wish almost, like I can

almost fear a longing or a wish that there weren't

so difficult. Sure. And

so some of the gaps that I've seen, and I've been a part of,

you know, men's work for over 10 years, and

I've watched, and I hold everything

that happens in there very confidentially and sacredly, but so I'll generalize.

I've seen men in leadership roles

that maybe— this is my judgment and projection—

don't understand the value and the importance

of prioritizing the relationship and then

hiding in the feel-goods of leadership

in an only-man environment. Like, there's a

part of— and I've been there— there's a phase for me where it feels so

empowering and invigorating. Like,

the hormones that are released to be doing men's work with men,

it hits like a primal place. Like, it

feels good. Like, I'm invincible. And then a lot of these

men go home and get super triggered and react to their wife

and scream at them and make them cry, or sometimes

be physical, or shut down, or check out, or gaslight them.

And then what's the point of the men's work? If the—

for me, the whole point of men's work is to become a safer man.

That's the whole point. If I can become a safer man in the world,

I know the ripple effect of that will inspire

more peace in the world. I know that. And so that's what I

choose to do is like move towards a thing. So if men

are only doing the men's work, but are functioning from a

belief that there's— my partner is

annoying, frustrating. Oh, like, why won't she

get off my case? She's always trying to, like, psychoanalyze me and

tell me what all the things of where I'm not showing up. Like, fuck, is

it ever good enough? Like, how many out there are listening going, are you

in my living room, Mike? Yeah,

she's inviting you into a whole new level of leadership.

She's inviting presence. She's inviting safety.

She's inviting capacity to be in relationship

with something that is way different than the

specimen of man. Man is completely different

and women are completely different. If we can learn how to

build relational skill and back to what I shared earlier is attune, learn

to attune to the feminine.

Man, there's no more powerful leadership than that level of skill.

If a man can learn how to attune to the feminine, there's nothing

he can't take on when it comes to business or obstacles and

frustrations around money. Because it actually—

and this is just my belief, so you guys listening, take this however it

lands— I believe it takes a deep

spiritual connection to relate with an empowered woman.

I think it takes a connection to God, higher self, universe, whatever,

insert your, your relationship. It wasn't

until I've doubled down on my relationship to God, because in all the

moments my body's remembering the thing that I was modeled by

society and my household, my father,

I need to slow down. And I call it one, one inch of space.

I need to create one inch of space of the conditioning and what my body's

wanting to perpetuate. Connecting with

God. God, what would you have me do here? What

would a safe man do here? Every time,

every time new information comes in, and I'm amazed and

surprised of what comes out of my mouth, what body gesture I end up

doing, what I end up taking responsibility for. And then

my partner is my report card to see how well I'm doing on

true embodiment If she softens and settles,

I'm rocking it. That's it. That's

leadership. If she softens and settles and trusts

the way that I'm leading in the relationship,

I'm becoming the man I'm meant to be. I'm becoming a safer man in the

world. That's the most fulfilling thing on the

planet. The messages that I get from my clients

that bring me to tears, that bring me the most joy, is where a man

has been stuck in his head for 20, 30 40 years in some

situations, just like so believing

his partner's an enemy against him. And then

we take them through the initiation, and for some— I'm thinking of one client right

now, it was within 2 weeks of doing the Descent, and

then he had new capacity and understanding. He believed what I'm saying here.

He made a decision to challenge his belief and started to be curious.

Maybe she actually is the greatest gift that God gave me.

That's going to bring me into everything I'm looking for. That shift

in him, he went in and without even

saying anything, he's— I remember getting the audio message the next day.

He's like, dude, oh my God, you'll never guess what happened after our session.

My wife walked in and she was dressed in this sexy, sexy

lingerie and just like wanted to

ravage me. Oh my God. Like.

And then she looked at me and she said, because what had

happened for backstory is the day before, he had went

up to her and just invited a

situation for him to hold her and just hold space

for her with, with new capacity online because he, you know, of

the descent of an actual experience of initiation.

And then she looked at him and she said,

In in the, the last 20 years, this is the most emotionally met have

ever— I I have been in the last 20 years

of our marriage. I really

felt you meet me, and now I want to give you this.

And then they had the hottest sex ever. And he was

like, that was amazing. I'm like, yeah, man. And this is what I want every

man listening to understand. When we learn how

to meet them, when we learn how to understand

their world and make that more of our mission and take up more space

to learn how to do that well, it will

soften and open them, and they will want to give you the juicy

feminine. Everything you're looking for, it's not coming in the nagging and the complaining and

thinking something's wrong with them. They feel all of that. They're intuitive as

hell. They pick up on all of those beliefs and they're going to just attack

the shit out of you because that isn't right relationship to nature.

We're meant to hold the feminine in reverence. A woman is just the female

embodiment of Pachamama, the earth itself. It is

unpredictable. It's forever changing. Some of it doesn't make sense.

It's not our job to take responsibility for it. She's going to do whatever

she's going to do. Female embodiment is no

different. She is forever changing. She is wise and she

is beautiful in all of her glory, through

her moon cycles, through all of it. Nothing in that is a

problem. And if we really believe that and learn how to

approach them differently, they will want to give you parts

of themselves they haven't given to anyone. And that's what most men

usually come to me with, saying they want more of. I'm telling you,

this is how. You have to go through the process of

initiation to even have the embodiment inside

to meet them in a way that they are going to let you through

their 7 gates and actually then give you the glory of what's

in there. You don't get through those gates for free. You

got to earn it. That's the

initiation. They're feeling-oriented. If you don't

embody the thing that opens their gates, they're not going to give you their

goods. But if you learn

the embodied ingredients,

dude, their desire to

pleasure, their desire to create more space for you to do

your thing and support you in, you know,

Courtney supporting me. Yeah, go on that trip. Do that thing. Yes, go

speak on that stage. Yeah, totally. I so believe

in you. But that's the reciprocity. To be able

to actually have more freedom to go into my

mission is because I'm doing my work and figuring

out how to attune her in a way where she feels seen, held in

reverence, and appreciated. I

mean, one big takeaway from that, and, and I've seen this

and you're just really inspiring it right now, is.

It—. I mean, you were sharing even someone

with 20 or 30 years of conditioning around the

same pattern, shutdown, etc.,

like it is still possible. It is

still possible to lead the relationship to

work through some of this stuff. Because I mean, experience a lot of guys like

they feel hopeless. And like what you said, they make their partners—

and I get, and I have been guilty of this at times— to be the

enemy. Like, man, she's really— why does she keep coming at me? Like, I'm doing

all this stuff and it's that one thing. Like, why?

What? Like, yeah. But at any level,

I'm really feeling like it is possible, you know, for men who feel

like, damn, this is just the way things are and I've accepted it.

And the other thing, uh, connected to

that is like around

codependency. Like when guys are really stepping into, let's just say,

wanting to make certain changes in their life because they want their relationship to—

or their woman to soften. But the real,

like, the, the— maybe it's the hyper attachment to, I'm doing this

because in exchange I want to have sex, or I want her to

soften. What's your thoughts around codependency in that regard? When a man

makes the work that he's doing on himself in relationship

primarily focused on the outcome. That's what I was trying to say, of

having sex or whatever. Uh, what do you feel about that?

First thing is there, there's a, there's a, an

evolution. For some men, that is how

it starts, and there's actually nothing wrong with that. Like,

how we come into a body is we are completely

dependent on the ingredients from our environment. And

then if we're given enough of them, and it's been proven we actually only need

30% of attunement, if we get that 30%, we

will evolve and mature and move into the

desire to be independent. And then we will

experience independence and really get to know ourselves, and then we will evolve into the

next level, which is interdependence. That is the understanding that we are

all one. We're all sharing this rock, same team.

That's the ultimate truth. And there's a bunch of complexities and confusions

because we're in animal bodies that remember all this generational history.

But the, the ultimate aim is interdependence,

being ready and willing to help and support from an overflowing cup.

So I just wanted to give that arc first. There

are some men that I've seen that start off with the

awareness that they want to now finally

decide to make a change and stop doing it the same,

uh, crazy-making way that they've been doing it for 10 years, you know, for

some 10 years, 15 years, 20 years. If you're doing it the same

way and thinking that you've got it figured out, but it's leading to the same

old thing, which is just hours of

processing, endless conversations where you end up feeling

smaller and more frustrated and more stories stacked against your

partner. That's not it. Some men, their evolution

is going from, ah, screw her,

to, oh my God, she's about to leave. She's got

empowered enough or she might leave. Okay, now I'm ready.

Some men, it takes that fear of losing it to then

go, I'm gonna go do this because I want to have better

sex. I want her to stay. If

a man honors that part of the evolution, some of them if met

with the right support, will go through an initiation to

have their own insight and aha moment of,

oh, it's not about getting from her.

It's about what can I give of myself to her where

she will want to give me more of what she has.

A man will arrive there if he's met in a certain way.

But if life met him in a certain way where he wasn't

met enough in his own need, he will look through life

in this way of, what can I get?

Not because he's a bad person, because he didn't get enough

of his cup filled.

Once he starts to get his cup filled relationally, there's

something that just beautifully happens. I've watched men carry gnarly

shadows and beliefs on the world and judging and projecting all over

everyone, doing horrible, you know,

horrible things that even I had to breathe and downregulate on. I

was like, you've done what? And

I've seen it all, all like just the darkest, gnarliest things

that can happen in humanity. And what I see time and

time again is none of— no person is bad.

It's all a reaction to

not getting enough relational need met

to move through higher stages of awareness and

maturity, whatever you want to call it.

When that happens, it's

incredible, Mike. I've watched men with 30 years

of conditioning in—

I had a closing call with a man a couple weeks, or last week actually,

within 6 months, within 6 months,

he went from what he described as the dark night

of the soul, thought he was going to lose everything, freaking out, just feeling

so vulnerable, all this energy moving through him that he couldn't seem to avoid

and numb out anymore and slow down. And just

through 6 months, and it started

to happen more at month 4, just with this

ingredient of entombment, going through the initiation,

he liberated himself. He liberated his

belief about his partner, belief about other people, and

he started to really understand, oh my God,

I've not been giving myself the experience

of leading from my heart. I've been protecting myself and

just functioning and overriding with my head.

For all these years. But now he walks into his house,

and what he's met with is his wife walks up to him and says,

it feels so good to feel you here. Like,

you're really here, and it feels so good.

And he was sharing with me, Mike, it's the greatest feeling ever.

I can actually say now that my heart leads my head, and

it's freeing, it's liberating. Now the legacy that I built, I actually

get to enjoy because I'm not stressed about how much that costs and this

that, I actually just get to trust life.

I get to trust the flow of the river. I'm just in the

boat riding it, not trying to hang on to the banks, fight it,

control it. I'm just riding it. And I actually— Mike, he said, I

don't even want to plan too far ahead anymore. I just want to

enjoy this because it feels so good to be in here.

So go ahead, please. It doesn't

need to take a lot of time. And I am— man,

part of me even feels a bit frustrated and pissed about this, that it's taken

me so many years to reach this level

of embodiment and ground. And I still, I mess it up all the time. You

know, just to highlight that, if you were to follow in my life, I— yes,

I get triggered. Yes, you know, I mess up all the time.

But I have so much more capacity. I've created so many inches of space

to my conditioning that I'm living a completely different reality.

And I love the reality that I'm living. It's taken

me a lot of time. It's taken me

years. It's taken me two decades. And it kind of pisses

me off that I created so much skill

that I can watch a man go through it in a few months.

And I'm grateful for everyone that it gets to be a few months because

great, if, if my 20 years and my slow

learning and integration leads to men doing it way faster

than me, great, because then I get to have deep meaningful conversations with those

men and feel the glory of what it's like to be with a

man with an open heart where we can just freely feel our feelings, express love

with each other, and share the beauty of the great mystery of life.

And share the relational wins of how supported

the feminine is now feeling. That's just the best. I could do that

all day long, every day, because that just makes

life more enjoyable for me to be on it and for everyone else.

Because then if everyone's talking about how great they feel in their relationship

and the hot sex that they're having and how they were able to work through

that clunky place where they keep just like projecting onto

each other and beating each other up emotionally that they've been doing for 15 years,

if they get to talk about We did it! We did

the new thing! Oh my God, it was so simple and it

worked! And it worked! It actually worked! It actually worked!

And we actually like each other. We've just discovered we actually like

each other. It's like, great, man. If, if that

can happen— and I trust that happens in your work too— it's like when there's

men creating containers intentionally for, for men

to go through this embodied experience and integrate, man,

It really can happen so quick,

but it does take the willingness for a man to

decide to do something different, to

decide to trust another person that they may have a

bunch of judgments and projections on. I've had men sit in

the first call and be like, I'm going to be honest with you, Mike. I'm

looking at you. I'm like, who the fuck does this young guy think he is?

Well, he's going to guide me into— and I'm like, yeah, welcome that part.

Amazing. Of course you're having that. I'm in a completely different place.

Check it out. Keep scanning. Keep

scanning. Look, I might not be what I

present as. Like, keep that part alive. And then through the

process, it's like, in that part getting to express it, it will find a place

of, uh, all right, this guy's the real deal.

And it's not about me. I want to highlight that. It's not about me. Me.

It's about all the gifts I've been given from people relationally

attuning to me that have given me the embodied

integration to be able to tune to another. Hmm.

When I'm working with a man in a session, and when we're connecting here, it's

not just us, man. It's everyone who's supported us that

even gives us the capacity to have the presence to talk about something really

important in the world right now. That's the

interdependence.

Amen, brother. Mike, this has been such a great

conversation, man, and I'm just so grateful that your

gift and you is— you're doing the work that you're doing, man. Like, this

has been— I've just learned a lot from today's conversation.

So thank you so much, man, for connecting with me, for sharing with me, for

sharing with the men listening. Is there anything— and we'll definitely have

you back on, you and Courtney, and we'll be doing more of these for sure—

is there anything that you would love to leave listeners with

today? Any take-home point, anything that you would love to, to sign

off with?

For every man listening, you're beautiful just the way

that you are. And life is most likely inviting

you, if you're still listening to this, to look

at something you can't see. You're not going to figure that one out

on your own. Don't let you life, know,

knock you to your knees for you to then have the insight and

realization, "Oh, I think I need help." Find it before

that happens, or if it is happening, go find it. But

most likely, if you're in a place where life isn't feeling so

hot, it's because there's a bunch of your life

you haven't been able to make sense of.

Find someone you feel safe with, that you feel inspired by,

that provokes something that feels true in you. Listen to that

whisper, the wisdom of your body, and turn towards it and

learn. Your life doesn't need to be

a graveyard from all of your conditioning. It gets to be the ground

for your initiation, but initiation requires mentorship.

It always has for generations. So find a mentor that

you trust and lean into them, whether it's me, whether it's Mike

here, whether it's some other man you've been following for a while. Trust yourself.

Turn towards a place that feels safe and give yourself the

gift of freedom, of learning a new way,

becoming an initiated man.

Mike, thank you so much, brother. You have a beautiful day, my friend. We'll

be in touch soon. Yeah. Thanks, brother. Thanks for having me. Of

course. Of course.