[00:00:00] Okay, so prior to recording this episode, I swear I didn't have a clue about the many different shades. Of imposter syndrome out there and especially and how many of them I would see myself from the 17 year old who would consider a 98 score on a test as a failure to the 32 year old who thinks new skills should come natural to her.

[00:00:25] Believe me when I tell you this conversation gave me a peek into my darkest self beliefs and mindset. You know, there is a lot of content out there on imposter syndrome, and initially it felt like a no brainer topic on a podcast that caters to introverted personalities. You might resonate with the idea of feeling like a fraud in certain work settings.

[00:00:49] Like someone's going to find out how you have no idea what you're doing three months into a new job. Like you don't belong. You're not good enough yet to be seen and recognized for the work that you do. I know this only scratches the surface. So I have found the perfect guest to take imposter syndrome from a buzzword that everyone talks about to a concept that you truly understand.

[00:01:15] And now how to navigate in this episode, I welcome jewel Kim on the podcast, executive coach and life coach who specializes in confidence, building people, pleasing, setting boundaries and tackling imposter syndrome jewel shares her personal experience of growing up in Alabama as an Asian girl. She explains how imposter syndrome originates and develops over time. But most importantly, How to tackle it head on.

[00:01:46] We go deep into the five different types of imposter syndrome, how they manifest, especially for introverts in the workplace and jewel offers hands on advice and strategies for overcoming the self doubt and deep rooted beliefs that stand in the way of you and the fulfilling career and life you wish to build.

[00:02:08] What I love most. Is that Juul is a diehard introvert who couldn't be more suited to bring this topic to life for this audience. So Without further ado, let's jump into the interview. All right, Juul, thank you so much for joining me today and welcome to the Awfully Quiet Podcast.

[00:02:27] Thank you, Hannah. I am so excited to be here, especially given what we just talked about, that this is going to be all about the introvert experience. So I can't wait.

[00:02:36] I love that you just shared that with me because that sets us up for success in this episode, is that you can relate to the introverted experience. Where I want to start with is, Joel, you're an, executive coach and specialize in, in the areas of your, you help specifically with building confidence with people pleasing, setting boundaries, imposter syndrome.

[00:02:58] Now, where I'd like to start is. Why these topics? What drew you in to these topics? And, why do you have so much fun working with clients on, building up confidence and tackling imposter syndrome?

[00:03:12] It's because it's very personal to my own background. You know, I've struggled with this for my entire life. I grew up in Alabama and I'm Korean. And so if you're not familiar with Alabama and you're listening to this episode, there aren't a lot of Asians in Alabama. Okay. So there's like a very tremendous sense of not belonging.

[00:03:34] And when you feel like you don't belong, which is like a very basic human need, we all have this need to feel like we belong. You will find other ways to get that sense of belonging. So you may start to people, please, cause you want people to like you. You may also feel imposter syndrome like I did. So if you are different in any way.

[00:03:54] From whatever circumstance or situation you find yourself in. So, for example, if you're a woman and you're invited to speak at a conference. And all the other speakers are men. And all the other speakers maybe have books published. Or maybe they make millions of dollars and you don't. You may feel imposter syndrome, right?

[00:04:13] So all of this is very personal to my own background. And, you know, honestly, it's kept me from really. Owning who I am, you know, I wasn't taught how to accept myself. And, you know, when you were talking about how your podcast is really geared for introverts in the workplace, I was like, Oh my gosh, that's, that's me.

[00:04:31] I'm raising my hand because not only am I an introvert, but I'll tell you on the Myers Briggs test, which I think a lot of us are familiar with, right? The MBTI,

[00:04:41] Sure.

[00:04:41] a 100 on introvertedness.

[00:04:45] never heard this before. 100.

[00:04:49] A hundred. Yeah.

[00:04:51] That's incredible. You are bang on this podcast.

[00:04:57] didn't even know when you invited me. Right.

[00:04:59] I'm like, yeah, I got to invite this person, but it gets better and better.

[00:05:04] Yes.

[00:05:05] So, I can really relate with that and in this feeling of imposter syndrome. And I often feel like. It's become a little bit of a buzzword. So in, from, from your experience, how would you describe imposter syndrome? What happens? Why do we have it? and is it something that. That is, you know, inherently given, is it maybe even something that correlates with introversion and sort of like more, introspective tendencies, or is it something that develops over time and, is sort of, sort of given to us with our, you know, kind of the social context that we're in and the environments that we're in

[00:05:47] Well, let's, let's address the very first question, right, which is, what is imposter syndrome? You are right that it has become more of a mainstream buzzword over the last five years, especially I remember, especially in 2021 in clubhouse, people were talking about imposter syndrome left and right and they were actually spreading misinformation about it.

[00:06:08] So imposter syndrome defined by the people who first. I think, what do you call it?

[00:06:15] coined the term. I

[00:06:17] coined the term, the people who first ran the studies and really captured their observations from those studies and coined the term. Okay. They identified, like, 3 main characteristics and also this is the work of Dr.

[00:06:30] Valerie Young, who I would say is today probably the most famous imposter syndrome expert. So, it's number 1 is that feeling that you're a fraud, you're not as capable as other people think you are, and that you're about to be discovered as some kind of fraud. So, there's this element of fraudness that you're not measuring up to other people's, you know, perception of you, and that you're about to be discovered.

[00:06:55] And the way this happens is because it is a failure to internalize your own achievements, your own successes. And I don't know if you've seen my Instagram reel or my tech talk on this, but I show how there's like a picture of water and there's a cup, right? I'm holding the picture of water is your positive experiences.

[00:07:15] Were you about to say something?

[00:07:16] I just said, I saw that one.

[00:07:19] Okay. Yeah. So you did see that 1. so you have a picture of water and you have the cup, right? And the picture of water represents your positive experiences, your achievements. And how the confident, healthy mindset works is every time you go through your life and you have something good happen, right? You get that promotion.

[00:07:37] You got a compliment, you know, it's pouring into your cup and this is how your confidence is raised. Okay. The imposter syndrome mindset is like the cup with saran wrap over it. And so even though your life is happening, the water is just bouncing off that saran wrap. And that's a very classic representation of how imposter syndrome comes about.

[00:07:58] You're not taking in what you've actually done. You're not taking credit. You're not owning it. And so then what happens? You fail to actually build the confidence for yourself up from that. And this is what makes imposter syndrome special, which is a little bit different from just self doubt. So everyone out there in the world feels self doubt, right?

[00:08:16] There's no human being who doesn't have a moment of self doubt, at least sometimes. But that's that special imposter ness, the imposter experience, or the stuff that's happening. You're failing to take in the positive data. Okay. You're only seeing the negative. Now, in terms of why this happens, there's So many different reasons, and I have people, of course, like the argument of nurture versus nature is very old, right?

[00:08:44] Like, how much of this are you born with versus how much of is caused by your environment, at least from what I see, most of it seems to be caused by your environment for the clients. I've worked with, you know, I've never seen someone where if you ask them, okay. And how I know this is if you ask them, what were you like?

[00:09:07] Okay. In your earliest memories of yourself, and it's never anything like how they are today. never had any memories of them feeling so scared or so, so doubtful of themselves. Now, if you're scared, like, if you have memories of feeling scared for different reasons, say you grew up in a dangerous environment, like a very unsafe or traumatic environment, that's a little bit different.

[00:09:34] But that can also lead to these feelings of needing to people please. Because then your survival literally depends on it, or the imposter syndrome. If you are in a sit in a situation where you feel really unsafe, you'll feel even more that need to try and blend in, knowing that you don't actually belong.

[00:09:55] Okay, so, there's so many different origins for this.

[00:09:59] What I really like is the visual, and the differentiation between self doubt and imposter syndrome and it comes to life beautifully in that, glass metaphor in terms of like imposter syndrome is. When you don't really feel the, you know, confidence drop in and it doesn't really sink in.

[00:10:17] Good things are happening to you. You achieve things, you do a good job on certain things, but it just, it just doesn't stick. And, the self doubt sort of takes over. Would you say that everybody has imposter syndrome to a certain extent? Or is it something that, you know, just certain kinds of people struggle with.

[00:10:41] You know, that's a tricky question, because I'm inclined to say that everyone has at least some moments in their life where that imposter experience comes up, that feeling of, oh gosh, I'm not going to measure up to how they think. Right so very classic example is if you have somebody saying, oh, you're so smart and and they're gushing at you.

[00:11:03] Oh, you must be so successful. You must be so talented and you start to feel really uncomfortable and you start to feel this pressure. Like, you're going to disappoint them. That's something that's commonly. Like, people don't understand that that starts to build into that imposter moment, like that imposter experience.

[00:11:22] Okay, so, you know, the studies out there will show you that it's around 70 to 80 percent of people who in studies will say they feel imposter syndrome, but in terms of the all, like, the actual full population out there, like, I, I do believe that it's actually everybody. Everybody and then there's this, post that Adam Grant put out and he says that the only people who don't feel imposter syndrome are not narcissists.

[00:11:52] And even then, I still believe that narcissists will probably have moments of feeling imposter syndrome.

[00:11:57] So that's why that makes it quite a big issue. If you say that close to 80 percent of the population struggle with imposter syndrome. Now, I know that it's difficult to deal with at times. I personally feel like it's difficult to deal with at times. Why is that? Do you think there's just not enough, guidance out there on how to deal with imposter syndrome, how to overcome it at the same time?

[00:12:24] Why do you think it's so important to tackle it head on and what happens if we don't?

[00:12:32] So, in terms of why it's so difficult, I think there isn't a lot of guidance and the guidance that you do see, especially if you go out there and Google, how do I overcome imposter syndrome is very surface level. You know, it'll tell you to take steps, which. I'm not saying that those steps aren't unhelpful, but those steps are only addressing their surface.

[00:12:53] Right? So, things like telling you to journal, you know, journal, your positive accomplishments, I do tell my clients to do that because I have observed that people with imposter syndrome have a very difficult time. Remembering what they've even done. So, for instance, I remember asking 1 client. What have you succeeded at?

[00:13:17] Or what have you achieved or even. Give me compliments people have given you over the last three months. They cannot remember. They actually struggle. So this is where I say the imposter experience is almost like having this very strange amnesia, right? It's selective amnesia. Like you're wiping away all the good stuff that you've done.

[00:13:38] your earlier question about maybe certain groups of people suffering from it more versus others. So race is definitely a factor.

[00:13:45] Hmm.

[00:13:46] people of color in the United States, very well documented that they have higher rates, but also your profession will document higher rates. So, for instance, creatives have a much higher rate of imposter syndrome, people in academia, so students.

[00:14:02] especially in the, the graduate level, so PhD students, masters students, they have extremely high rates of imposter syndrome people in the, the workplace, of course, and essentially, it's like, the more educated you are, the more likely you're going to feel that.

[00:14:19] First of all, I love that you're saying that in terms of like, actually. The more educated you are and the higher, you know, the higher, the better you, you become in your life at any profession or, you know, honing your skills, building, you know, building knowledge, you're actually more prone to imposter syndrome.

[00:14:42] That's actually a horrible fact because you would think it's the other way around, right? You would think that the more you achieve and the better you become the less you feel imposter syndrome. So, yeah, that's dramatic.

[00:14:55] it's it's interesting. Right? And I think we, there's a name for this effect. What is it? It's like, the more you learn, right? Like, when you start out in a field, and you don't know that much, you're actually more confident, like, probably too confident about your abilities. But then the more you learn, the more you realize how much you don't know.

[00:15:14] you don't know.

[00:15:15] yeah, and your confidence takes a hit, right? It's very similar. And the other thing that makes imposter syndrome a little bit unique is that these are people who are mistakenly equating their confidence for their capabilities. So they've basically put all of their confidence eggs in this basket of, I have to be the smartest.

[00:15:34] I have to be the most successful. I have to achieve more. Right. So then what happens when you go to that conference and you meet the most brilliant minds out there in your field, you're probably going to start feeling less than probably going to feel less confident. So all of this ties together when you are different in any way.

[00:15:55] From the group of people you're around, okay, whether that's in school or the workplace, whether you're a woman in like an all men field, or maybe you're non binary, you're in, you know, a group of all people, it can be anything if you're a minority in any way. If you're maybe the one person who's a little bit more overweight than all the other people, like it can literally be anything.

[00:16:21] It will start to bring forth these feelings of imposterness. I

[00:16:27] Yeah, I, I can very much relate to that. And, it feels like. Everyone deals with it to a certain extent. It's a massive problem. You said 80 percent of people deal with imposter syndrome. There is very little guidance on how to deal with imposter syndrome. Now, you specialize in it. So tell us, is there like a 12 step approach is from a top line perspective before we dive into the specifics?

[00:16:55] What do you do if you deal with imposter syndrome? Like, what would you, what do you tell somebody who feels less than in the workplace or who struggles with, especially among, extroverted personalities? If you're an introvert in the workplace, you can probably relate to how that must feel. And, what would you tell a person who struggles with imposter syndrome?

[00:17:15] What do they need to do potentially after, you know, after the journaling exercise?

[00:17:23] would say the journaling exercise should actually come after. Okay. So you can totally start with that. And for some people, let's say, cause I know, you know, Chris as well, he was on your podcast for some people like Chris though. That could be enough. Journaling your stuff and actually seeing a physical record of everything you've accomplished could be enough.

[00:17:43] In which case, I'll say great. You know, there you go. Off you go. But for most people, this is not the case, okay? I think you and I agree that most people are not like Chris. It's because there are some really deep held beliefs about who they are that's really at the root of all of this. And that's what you need to address.

[00:18:02] I can't tell you how many steps how many steps this would take, but I would say there are some main core areas around. What do you think? Confidence is. Like, what is actually keeping you from feeling confident about yourself? What has you constantly turning your eyes towards feeling like you're an imposter despite all the evidence to the contrary? So the other area I would say is very most common for people to, they should, they should be addressing are what I call their unmet needs. And if you Google that today, sites will explain this in different ways, but essentially. It's whatever you didn't get enough of when you were younger, especially as a child before you were 10.

[00:18:44] Okay, so maybe you're like one of my friends where she constantly felt dismissed by people, especially around how intelligent she was. So that's going to be like a red hot trigger for her today. And then that's going to make her go hard on trying to show up as the authority, as the expert. You know, because that's her coping, so think of imposter syndrome, it triggers the feeling.

[00:19:11] And then I know you and I are going to go into the five types later. The five types are essentially how you try to cope with that feeling, feeling inadequate. But if I were to say, like, here's your Bible for really overcoming imposter syndrome, it would be to go see a therapist or go work with a coach, someone who specializes in imposter syndrome and help.

[00:19:33] That person help you really dig out like that core essence of your identity. What do you believe about yourself? What are some of the things your parents have told you? You know, it can honestly be something where your, your parents were like mine, where they were constantly telling me that my brother was a smart one in the family, but bless your heart.

[00:19:52] You have to work hard because you're not as smart.

[00:19:54] so what you're saying is that in order to, tackle. Imposter syndrome. The first thing you actually got to do is find out the root cause for your imposter syndrome. What's the why behind what is the, what do you believe about yourself and where does it come from? And I agree, it can often really help to spare with somebody else and to reflect back to be asked the right questions to, really go deep into why is that and where does it come from?

[00:20:24] And why do I believe this about myself? And I think it's also really important that you say. a lot of these stem from, you know, years and years ago, and a lot of this is what we've been carrying around with us for a really long time. So, really important to look into the why and the root cause of it and then go into the more tactical.

[00:20:44] Okay. Now. What am I going to do to change this? What am I going to do to reframe some of those beliefs? And then in my day to day life, how am I going to tackle these head on?

[00:20:55] Yeah, absolutely. And I would also say in your day to day life today, like, if you work with someone, or you even talk with a friend, right? And I give you like this list of phrases to look over. So very common phrases we say that kind of point to, hey, you might be suffering from the imposter experience and you don't even know it is PTSD.

[00:21:19] If you accomplish something, right? Let's say you have a phenomenal presentation or you land an opportunity and someone says, you did a freaking good job. And your response is to say, oh, I got lucky. I

[00:21:33] was a team effort.

[00:21:35] Yes. Yeah. If you are downplaying your role in any way. That's usually 1 of the 1st clues to the imposter experience kind of lurking within yourself.

[00:21:44] Right. I had connections. Oh, they just like me. So there are many ways we downplay our, our own significance. And I'm not saying that you have to think that you're better than other people. So this is where it kind of plays into the idea of being humble. Because I get this comment quite often on my tick tock.

[00:22:04] Every time I post something about imposter syndrome, and I list some of these phrases, and there's always at least one person, if not multiple people who will say, I thought that was just being humble. And I'm like, but where in the concept of humility does it tell you you should ignore everything you've actually done?

[00:22:21] Okay. So being humble is trying to teach you that you should not think of yourself as above or as better than other people. But nowhere does it say you should be. Dismiss everything you've done.

[00:22:36] I like that you're saying that about being humble, because that was my initial reaction to when it comes to getting a compliment at work. being praised for something that you've done. I often find myself saying those things in terms of like, Oh, well, you know, there's a whole team behind that wasn't just me.

[00:22:53] it feels very hard to acknowledge that I've done a great job. I'm just, you know, taking us back to a couple of minutes ago, just before we started recording. And he said to me, Oh, you have a, you have a nice voice. It's just like, I almost wanted to say, no, I don't. I'm like, I have no way of responding to this.

[00:23:13] So, what, how does one respond in a way that doesn't fuel our imposter syndrome? Is it just. Is it just well, is it just saying thank you? That is, you know, that's a lovely compliment. Is it just taking the compliment or what do you say?

[00:23:32] you see me holding 2 thumbs off. Yes, I would actually say that 1 of the 1st and hardest steps for anyone to take, but especially women. Is to just say, thank you and stop. Don't say anything else I do think that it could be nice to acknowledge that it was a team effort. You know, if you lead a team. But at least start about starting with thank you.

[00:24:00] So you may have seen 1 of my other reels, right? Where I show this is the, like, the physical equivalent of what you're doing to someone who compliments you and you either ignore it or you dismiss it. Right? So the compliment coming in the form of flowers. So someone who's giving you a compliment, think of it like giving you flowers.

[00:24:19] And if you do anything other than just say thank you and hold the flowers, right? Let's say you're like one of my other friends where I compliment her and she goes, Oh, that, that was nothing. That's the equivalent of taking the flowers and throwing them in the trash. I've had people where I compliment them and I'm, I'm not lying.

[00:24:37] They've literally said, Oh, shut up. Okay. So then that's the equivalent of taking my flowers and throwing them back in my face. So, so really think about your responses. Like, why would you do anything other than say, thank you.

[00:24:51] All right, everyone. The first big thing to take away from this. The next time you get a compliment. Say thank you. And that's it. Take the flowers. Say thank you. Period. I love that. I love that. Very actionable. Now, we want to get more actionable. And, the first thing I'm perceiving when I go onto your account is the five types of imposter syndrome.

[00:25:15] And I'm asking for a friend. whether you can actually have an element of each of the five types, because I'm just kind of going through them and I'm like. Yeah. Yeah. I've got an example for that one too. So, let's start off with what are the five, five times, very top line, and then we'll go into each and every one of them in a bit more detail to just kind of look at, you know, and what do we do then?

[00:25:40] And what do we do if that's true for me? let's dive into the five types first.

[00:25:45] Okay. So in the five types, you have the perfectionist, the expert, the natural genius, the soloist, and the superhuman. And yes, you can have elements from all five. It's. Probably, I don't know, at least 30 to 40 percent of the comments where they're like, can I be more than 1 or can I be all 5? It's like, yes, you can have elements of many of these.

[00:26:13] But what I will say is take a hard look at the types, like, as you listen to us, speaking of these 1 or 2 of them will pop out more. Okay. And when I say pop out more. I mean, through your actions. Okay. So remember these 5 imposter syndrome types are essentially you're coping reactions for how you feel when you have that imposter experience.

[00:26:38] Got it. All right. Shall we start with the first one? The perfectionist. What is the perfectionist?

[00:26:48] so the perfectionist imposter syndrome type is the person. Well, where you're probably familiar with this idea. It's a person who has extremely high. Unrealistic expectations, they expect their work to be 100 percent correct. Perfect, they will not accept 99 percent or 98%. That 99 percent will feel like a failure.

[00:27:13] They're the person who ruminates over their mistakes or not meeting the goal 100 percent of the way, and if you don't know what ruminating means, it means dwelling on it for days, weeks, maybe even months, and because of all of this, right, this tendency to really strive for perfection, they can be a nightmare to work with because they're usually a micromanager.

[00:27:37] I actually got a story about the perfectionist, like, I gotta tell you this, Joel. back when I Did my driver's license. I'm from Germany. So you do a theoretical driver's license and you do a practical test. I think that's probably true for many countries. And so for the theoretical driver's license, you get a number of questions and there is a certain amount of questions that you can get wrong and still pass.

[00:28:02] Now, all my friends or most of my friends, the ones that I compared myself most to at the time, they passed without any mistakes. So they got, you know, the 100 percent on their, on their theoretical driver's license. And I made one mistake, which meant that I did not achieve the 100%. I made a mistake. And so I went home and I feel like as if I had failed that test.

[00:28:28] I hadn't. Nobody cares. It's not like I'm going to be pulled over at the back of the road and the police officer is going to notice that 10 years later in terms of like, Oh, you, you failed at your test because you got that one question wrong. but it felt to me like that. And nobody could understand it at the time.

[00:28:47] Obviously, in hindsight, from today's perspective, I laugh about this, but there are still certain elements that keep on showing up in that way today in my, you know, in my career, in my work life. So, I'm really curious to understand, what is your advice to somebody who has. You know, these perfectionist tendencies, how do we move away from wanting to achieve the 100 percent and how can we be okay with, let's say, 98%?

[00:29:20] Okay, before we get into that, I have a question for you. So let's go back to the days of that theoretical driver's test. And what if your friends had all also missed one question? How do you think you would have felt? Okay,

[00:29:41] I honestly think I would have felt

[00:29:42] the same because part of the reason is comparison with, with others and comparison to, you know, who I would compare myself to at the time. The other is that I feel like personally, I've always had. expectations on myself. It wasn't that my parents had those expectations. They would laugh about that. And they would say, well, you know, as long as you, as long as you didn't fail, you know, it's fine.

[00:30:09] And even if you were to fail the first round, you know, go again, you can try, you can try again. So I'm not too sure where it comes from, but I feel like I've always had high expectations of myself and I would have always wanted to go the 100%, even if my friends would have not, achieved that.

[00:30:26] so there is a comparison element to this imposter syndrome.

[00:30:33] Yeah,

[00:30:34] I would venture to guess that most of the people listening to this are probably not true perfectionists. So, to me, you sound like more of a true perfectionist. A true perfectionist is a person who is constantly judging themselves against the actual, like, objective 100 percent mark.

[00:30:53] But where most people, I think, are calling themselves perfectionists They're doing it from a place of relativity by comparing themselves to others, which is why I asked you that question. What if your friends had also missed one question or what if they had done worse than you, you know? So it's, it's hard to say, but if you're listening, right, I want you to ask yourself that question.

[00:31:13] What's that one thing or maybe multiple projects or things in your life that have happened and you, you keep hanging on to like that one percent or that one thing that didn't go the way you wanted. What might be different if everyone else in your circle that you knew or even everyone else out there also missed that one thing?

[00:31:33] How would that make you feel? Now in terms of getting out of that Insanely high expectation towards oneself I would say this is where we need to really distinguish between the pursuit of perfection versus the pursuit of excellence So, the perfectionist mindset around this is what I call the pursuit of the absolute worst within ourselves, right?

[00:31:58] It's that voice within us that causes us to only look at that missing 1 percent and ignore the 99 percent that we have. It's the voice that says. I don't have that 1%, therefore I failed. I must start over the pursuit of excellence. On the other hand, which I think people will confuse these 2 all the time.

[00:32:19] What they share in common is this desire to continuously strive to be better. Right? But the key difference here is the pursuit of excellence also has the ability to recognize that what you have in the moment for where you are in your journey is good enough. And that is the one major difference.

[00:32:39] I love that. So what I'm taking away is there is a difference between the pursuit of perfection and the pursuit of excellence. I resonate with the term of excellence because in my mind, that's that's really what I'm striving for. I want to become. Better I don't need the absolution of being perfect right now, and maybe we never get to perfect.

[00:33:04] but this kind of striving for excellence, striving to become better over time, does not only sound achievable, but it also sounds a lot healthier. Then striving for perfection and so I like that sentiment so it's really almost like a mindset shift and a task to, you know, for everyone who feels like they have, perfectionist tendencies to just kind of ground themselves into here is what I should be striving for its excellence.

[00:33:35] It's to become better. Not to be perfect. Not for that absolution. I love that.

[00:33:42] Yes. Thank you. And let me throw in as well, where people who are having these perfectionist tendencies, you have to ask yourself, what is that giving me? Because I will say out imposter syndrome types. The perfectionist is maybe the hardest to overcome. And it's because perfectionism does bring you a lot of benefits.

[00:34:11] So on the surface, what happens when you do get 100%? You get awards, you get recognition, you get status, you get those promotions. what makes it so hard to actually change your mindset because deep down there's a voice that will be saying, but this is working. This is working out for me. Well, what that really is addressing, like the real true, you know, the truth, like how you and I were saying, you have to really address like the roots. Perfectionism is most often addressing the need for safety, proving your self worth and also controlling your self image in the eyes of others, right? How do you appear to others?

[00:34:59] Just had to note down controlling your self image and to actually honor that there are truly unhealthy elements in striving for perfection. And there are elements that, like you say, are really beneficial. There are elements that are going to bring us further in life and farther and will get us the promotions will get us the, accolades.

[00:35:23] But at the end of the day, you know, does it make us happy? Does it, you know, does it fuel our, you know, career fulfillment? Does it does it get us into a space and into a place that feels good? Not only looks good from the outside, but feels good on the inside. So, I love that distinction and, the permission to almost stop, stop this need to control and stop this need to control how we're going to be looked at from the outside, but really make our experience something that feels good.

[00:35:56] Yes. And if you had to ask me, like, what is the purpose of the work I do? It's literally that. Is to teach people that it's okay to feel good and make your choices from that kind of place versus what most of us are doing out in the world today, which is a feeling of pressure, a feeling like you're not doing enough, feeling like you have to prove things to others.

[00:36:20] That doesn't feel good. So the question that I really want people to keep in mind as they're listening to this is ask yourself, what is the cost of this? Because what most of us only ever see is what this is giving us, right? Just like I said, this is why perfectionism is so hard to overcome.

[00:36:37] Is that voice inside will say, well, this is why you have everything. This is why you have the job. This is why you have that big business, but ask yourself, what is it also costing you?

[00:36:48] love it. So what I'm taking away for everyone who sees themselves as the perfectionist, for everyone who says, no, I'm not just comparing myself to others. I want to go all the way. I want to achieve a hundred percent. And this is me, instead of striving for perfection, strive for excellence. strive to become better over time, stop controlling some of your, some of that self image, and then take the pressure out.

[00:37:17] What does it cost you? Ask yourself, what does it cost you? I love that question, Jewel. So, thank you for sharing that. And it's a beautiful mission to be on.

[00:37:24] What's the next

[00:37:25] you. The next type is the expert. And this is my personal demon. It's how every time I feel less than confident, this is, this is how it manifests. And so remember, you know, keep that in mind with yourself. Like as you listen to the five types, how does this most often manifest in your behavior? So the expert type is the one who feels they can never have enough knowledge or skills.

[00:37:50] They're constantly acquiring new certifications or degrees, and I, I laugh because I literally just posted two new certifications on my LinkedIn profile yesterday. This is the person who won't apply to a job unless they meet all the criteria. Okay. So if it's got 20 bullet points, they feel they have to meet all 20 bullet points in order to apply. And they're often hesitant to ask questions in groups because they don't want to look dumb. They don't want to look like they're not the authority.

[00:38:21] I actually feel like this may just be the type. That will resonate most with this audience that will resonate most with introverts in the workplace, because a lot of the examples that you give, resonate with what I've been hearing from the people I work with in terms of, like, wanting to meet all the criteria, wanting to feel truly ready before.

[00:38:43] Going for a career opportunity before going for a promotion before even asking, to be promoted or asking for, for a certain position in the project and opportunity. And then also the sentiment of speaking up in a room full of people, speaking up in a meeting, and that may just be a zoom meeting, with your closest project team.

[00:39:01] And you don't want to say anything that's stupid. you don't want to say anything that, you know, gives an impression that you don't know enough. So, instead of just going out and sharing your opinion, sharing your voice, you often end up saying nothing at all. And you've, you've previously talked about what's the cost of that.

[00:39:22] Now, what is the cost of this one? What happens to those people who hold themselves back in the

[00:39:29] Don't share their opinion. Never speak up in a meeting. Don't go for the position. Why is this so important to tackle?

[00:39:37] So this will come out in a couple of different ways. The person who falls into this imposter syndrome type, right, the expert, they will delay things for forever because they're constantly taking more classes or they're getting more degrees. And not only that, they're impacting the people around them for the same reason, right?

[00:40:01] It's like. I've heard stories I've literally seen tech talks of people complaining how their partners. Already have a PhD and the person just starts on another program for another PhD program. Why? You know, and then too, if you're the person who never speaks up, okay, so now we're talking about imposter syndrome, plus the introvertedness, you will probably suffer some degree of anxiety, right? because it's your self respect lowering when you fail to speak up for what you know is right. You fail to share of yourself, right? You to say what you actually think out of fear of making a mistake or out of fear of looking incompetent. Okay, you are sacrificing your self respect, but also connection with other people and also status with other people.

[00:41:03] So, I think you and I know that in the workplace, it can appear that the extroverts are constantly getting awarded, right?

[00:41:11] Yeah.

[00:41:12] They're the ones getting recognition. They're the ones getting the promotion. And unfortunately, that is true to a large degree, because if you're that introvert who doesn't ever say anything, just like I was, how do people know that you're actually capable of doing the job? So, this is what I mean. The behavior will manifest in trying to prove yourself in other ways. So in my head, I know that I definitely thought this over 10 years ago. It's like, I, I can't ever be that person to speak up. And yet here I am on this podcast with you and other people's podcasts. Okay. But back then I thought I can't speak up.

[00:41:53] So I'm going to give them more of this other stuff, right? I'm going to be the smartest person in the room, but how do people know you're the smartest person if you're never opening your mouth and sharing that with them?

[00:42:04] the earning

[00:42:05] Okay.

[00:42:06] EARL so

[00:42:07] Now I'll say this too. The introvert actually has one superpower that I think most of them aren't using. And because we're introverts, right? We tend to be much better listeners than other people. And because of that, we're able to build relationships one on one better than other people. So a lot of extroverts will have lots of relationships, but they may not be very deep, right? So they appear to have a very wide footprint in the world.

[00:42:42] They have a ton of connections. Everybody seems to know their name, in terms of how many close, deep connections do they actually have? It's probably not that many, definitely not as many as you think. The introvert superpower is to really build connections because their superpower is to really listen deeply.

[00:43:03] And if you're building connections like that. You can roll that upwards into finding the people who will advocate for you in the workplace. Find that person who will help mentor you and who will also advocate for your growth of your career in the company.

[00:43:21] I love so much that you're saying that, in terms of, like, building connection in terms of that being something that, is, is inherent to introverts. It's something that introverts are inherently good at, and, 1 to 1 connection over the big group settings. And I feel like. That's absolutely okay, too.

[00:43:40] So for everyone who's struggling to speak up in a big meeting, there are other ways of showing that you're there, showing that you're present, showing interaction, and even if you connect with people offline, or if you connect with people in a side chat. During the meeting, I feel like it often gives you a chance to, to be there, to participate, to make your voice heard in a way that doesn't require you to speak up necessarily.

[00:44:06] So I really, really like that you're saying that in terms of you don't always have to go about it in the same way the extroverts do, but leverage what you already do really well, leverage what comes natural to you and building the connection and. I feel like that may also be some of the, some of the segway or the bridge that you need to build in order to move yourself out of this mindset of wanting to become the expert in terms of like, why is it, what is it, why is it worth it?

[00:44:37] and it might just be that connection. Is that what it is in terms of like, looking for something? That, it's worth getting some of that, you know, striving for to become the expert up for,

[00:44:52] Oh yeah, for sure. You know, each of these behaviors that we're talking about, they address these needs, right? Remember when I said we have unmet needs. We have certain things that are sort of our hair trigger or our red hot buttons for when we feel not confident or we feel insecure about ourselves. Okay, so the expert you have to stop thinking of yourself as there's something wrong with you.

[00:45:18] Same thing for the introvert. You have to stop thinking of yourself as there's something wrong with you that needs to be fixed. Okay. This is not about changing who you are. This is about you becoming who you truly are and learning to leverage those strengths, right? You don't have to be the extrovert.

[00:45:34] You don't have to come into the room and have all eyes on you. You don't have to be the loudest person or the funniest or the happiest. It's really about you learning to be yourself and owning that because when you're comfortable with who you are, so then are other people.

[00:45:50] I love that so much. It's, it's almost like you in owning that in showing up who, who you really are as who you really are. And, leveraging what comes natural to you, it almost gives people a peek inside of yourself and it almost gives something away from you that others then can relate with or not.

[00:46:11] But it, it sometimes builds that bridge. So I really like that sentiment. All right, shall we go into the next type?

[00:46:20] Yes. So the next type is the natural genius. This is the person who thinks they should be good at stuff naturally and easily. They tend to expect themselves to get things right on the first try. And they judge themselves on how quickly and easily they learn or do anything. They're also the person who, for some strange reason, expects themselves to go straight from beginner to expert.

[00:46:48] And it's not that they don't want to go through the in between phase, They actually don't even know that that middle stage exists.

[00:46:57] I see myself a lot in the natural genius in terms of like, that's an expectation that I can relate to. on so many levels, and I've had a very similar conversation with Chris in terms of like. How do you acquire that public speaking skill? And it often feels like those are some of the skills that come natural and people are born with and then, you know, all of a sudden you're this great public speaker and it's often not like that.

[00:47:22] And, it just, especially with like starting this podcast and marketing this podcast on social media. I often felt like, Oh, I'm, you know, that should come natural to me because I actually do marketing for a living. I work in big corporation in, in marketing and in brand management. I should know how to grow on social media, how to put out podcasts, how to market it.

[00:47:49] It's actually not true. It's a whole different muscle. It's a whole different set of skills that is needed for that. And then in terms of starting a podcast, speaking into a microphone, it often looks so, so easy, you know, getting this, this whole set up and getting it right and interviewing someone, speaking into a microphone just by yourself, just because you see so many people on social media do it, Doesn't mean that it's something that comes easy and they probably spend hours and hours honing that skill.

[00:48:21] And that's the aspect that you don't often see. You see, the stage at which it is already really, really good. And so just to say, I relate very much with this natural genius and, wanting to go from beginner to expert. Now, is it just, you know, do we just need to shift that in terms of our mindset of.

[00:48:46] Taking it slower, lowering our expectations and, giving ourselves more time or are there actual tools we can use if we feel that we ought to be better at this, what we're currently doing and this endeavor that we're going after? Or how do we go about, just kind of slowing it down a little.

[00:49:05] Okay. So to address the first thing that you asked, yes, of course it is a mindset shift. And I would say you're probably very close to the fixed mindset if you identify with a natural genius type. Okay. This is a person who is likely to quit things because they're too hard, but they didn't actually give the thing like a fair chance.

[00:49:36] Okay, so it also tends to be very common with the people who are younger. So people who are still in their twenties, they'll very often have extremely crazy expectations. Like I remember one person I coached, she was 23 and she was saying she just started a new job in a new industry. So it was completely new and she was having a lot of pain that she was experiencing because It's new.

[00:50:04] So of course, what happens? You're probably not very good at it because there's so much to learn. asked me, what do I do if I'm still not that good at this in three months? And I was like, three months, what on earth? And I asked her like, who told you that you should be good at anything in three months, and that really stumped her.

[00:50:29] So I would say, that's one of the questions you need to take away from this. If you're listening and you're like, Oh my gosh, that's me. I'm the natural genius. Why do you think you should be good at this? So quickly, who told you that

[00:50:43] Yeah.

[00:50:43] now, in terms of when you said, do we need to lower our expectations? To me, it's not so much about lowering your expectations, but about resetting to the reality.

[00:50:54] You need to reset to realistic expectations. Do you expect your 1 year old to suddenly start running? No, would you expect that of a 6 month old? Right, these things take time. As adults, we're no different, but we think we are so everything has its own time. Everything has its own learning curve. And just like you said, we're constantly comparing ourselves to people who have already.

[00:51:25] Made it over the biggest humps they've actually taken the time and they've put in more than just a few hours. We're talking hundreds or thousands of hours to really be the expert at this. So you're comparing yourself to somebody who is years ahead of you, and then the thing that doesn't make sense is you make yourself feel bad for that.

[00:51:50] Okay, so comparison is a natural part of the human experience. That's always going to be true. But the thing that doesn't make sense that we all do is then we compare and make ourselves feel like crap. So then that's the other question. Why are you doing that? So I'll tell you the story of one of my clients. She's a photographer. She actually makes really good money as a photographer. So last year she made, I think, like 115 grand. You know, she made over six figures. This year, I think she's sitting around 90 grand. Something like that. There's something in her brain that tells her that she failed. Because she didn't make as much money as she did last year.

[00:52:38] But the real part that doesn't make sense, okay, when we're talking about comparison, she compares what she makes now to what she made back in corporate in a technical role. Okay. So in the technical role, she was making close to 200 grand. And I looked at her and I said, do you know how much the average photographer makes in the U S the average salary is something like 40 grand. The top 10 percent is. 80 grand and above you're in that top 10 percent of photographers, but here you are comparing yourself in a way that doesn't make sense. And in a way that harms you, right? You're just looking for excuses to make yourself feel bad.

[00:53:36] So it's almost like not comparing yourself to others, not comparing yourself to the average that you should probably be looking at, but comparing yourself to a benchmark that's actually not achievable, but that's, that's almost out of, out of sight, not even on the horizon, um, for this, and this is almost like the sentiment of you.

[00:53:59] You want to go from this level to really high up in a matter of a really short time and it's not achievable and you only make yourself feel bad for it. I feel for this type.

[00:54:13] Yeah, it's just like you said. Yeah, it's it's a lot of us, you know, we, we do some version of this all the time. And just like you said, you're comparing yourself to something that's not even on the horizon. I would say you're comparing yourself to something that's out of reality. It's not even in the realm of your reality for where you are now.

[00:54:37] It's like a bird or like a fish comparing themselves to the bird and punishing themselves for not knowing how to fly. Like, why would you do that?

[00:54:47] It's almost like this, you know, grab for the stars and, and there's, there are certain elements in what I'm perceiving on social media that often kind of fuel some of these beliefs in terms of like, you know, get there really fast and, you know, launch your podcast in 30 days. And, the sentiment of doing something really, really quickly.

[00:55:06] And what I love about the actual work that goes into doing something really, really well. Is the commitment that it needs and the sentiment of. Are you willing to work for it 10, 000 hours? Are you willing to work for that for the next 10 years to become really good? To almost check your intentions of why do you want to become so good at this?

[00:55:30] And are you willing to put in the time? I feel these are really powerful questions and problems to, to deal with that in that situation, if you identify yourself as the natural genius.

[00:55:44] We've got two more types to cover. what are the other two?

[00:55:48] So we have the soloists, which I think a lot of people in the workplace can really identify with. This is the person who thinks they should be able to do everything on their own. They will think that achievements only count if they did it all by themselves. And not only does asking for help make them feel inadequate, they tend to also actively reject offers of help from people.

[00:56:13] So if you sit there and you're like, Hey, Sally, I see you need some help with this. Can I help you out? And they'll be like, no, no, no. I got it. Even though they don't got it. It's like, why? Like, why do you do that? And it's because of accepting any form of help makes them feel like they're being weak.

[00:56:32] Yeah, I, I relate to that. I would often find myself underwater and if I, if somebody would come to me and ask, you know, do you need help? can I help in any way? Do you need support? there's two things that are going through my mind. One is Do you think I need help? Does it look like I need help? What gives you the impression that I would need help on this?

[00:56:55] And then the second thing is,

[00:56:57] I'm probably better off doing it myself. this kind of sentiment of, well, I've been doing this for quite some time. I know what I'm doing. And, it takes me more time to teach somebody else or to delegate certain aspects of it than just doing it myself. And I found myself. in this sort of mindset and with this approach for a really long time, and I think it's what ultimately keeps you from, you know, from staying in sort of like the junior levels, it keeps you from, you know, getting into those manager and director levels because you always just think about yourself and as yourself as the one who does the work and who contributes and it doesn't really allow you to step up into, into leadership.

[00:57:39] Actually. So, yeah, I've, I've, I've seen myself a lot in these types and this type in the soloist early on in my career. how do you feel about the soloist?

[00:57:49] The soloist type is probably the one that I usually don't identify with too often. But once in a while, it pops up. Right. So, for instance, Chris featuring some of my posts on his feed, like, a long time ago, and then me suddenly getting like, tons of followers definitely felt like the soloist at that point. It was that feeling of I don't deserve these followers because he helped me. So, therefore, these followers aren't really mine, but that whole thing. Let's go back to 1 of the things you said. Right. I'm sorry. I totally laughed when you said, do you think I need help? Like, like what made you think that, you know, I was like, Oh my gosh, it's so funny because I'm the person who's like, yeah, give me the help.

[00:58:30] Give me all the help. I'll take it all. But the other piece of what you said, you said probably better doing it myself. I was like, Ooh,

[00:58:39] Red

[00:58:39] resonates with almost every single client. It resonates though, because I think every single one of my clients thinks the same. And here's the thing, like, that's not the thing we're arguing about.

[00:58:50] There's no doubt you could do it better yourself, but that's also not the point. If we're talking about your growth, if we're talking about leadership, this is now about proving your ability to work with other people and to handle more realistic expectations. This is not about finishing that thing in 10 minutes.

[00:59:11] It's like, why do you need to finish it in 10 minutes, right? This is about providing growth opportunities for other people. This is about learning to build relationships with other people. This is about taking in more perspectives from other people, right? It's not about whether you can do it better yourself.

[00:59:31] Like that's beyond, okay, we're already past that point.

[00:59:36] I like the aspect of providing growth opportunities for other people. It's almost like, don't be so selfish. Don't try and do it all yourself. We know you can, but share some of the workload, especially if it's being offered to you. and I feel like whenever there is a clear offer from somebody to help, it's almost like an, an invitation to amplify whatever it is that you're doing to expand your work because there will always be.

[01:00:07] a fresh angle, there will always be a fresh perspective that somebody else brings in, regardless of their experience, regardless of their level of expertise on what it is that you're doing. So, I really like the approach in terms of like, It takes some of the spotlight away from you, it shines it on other people, and I feel like that is something that resonates with me as an introvert, and I'm sure resonates with the audience too.

[01:00:33] What a great point. I love how you tie that into introvertedness. here's another thing too, because I know introvertedness is also tied with deeper thinking, you know, compared to people who may be extroverts. And I'm not trying to throw shade here at the extroverts, but there are definitely some correlations with deeper thinking, deeper work with introverts because you spend less time, I guess, introverts. Speaking, they spend less time. Yeah. Chit chatting, but expending their energy outwards. So a lot of their energy tends to be more directed inwards, which is why that deeper thinking happens. So the reason why, not being the soloist actually ties in really well with introvertedness is because. If you are able to delegate and share some of that work, right.

[01:01:21] With other people, this will give you more time for yourself. So if you're able to come out of the day to day work. It will give you more time to do the strategy, do the vision. And if your goal is to really climb that ladder, to get into those leadership positions, that's really what you need to do. And for instance, I have a client right now where she was promoted and unfortunately she's, she's like that person who's become the general, but still thinks she's the soldier. Okay. So I think we all know what I'm getting at, right? The general's job is not to be on the front lines to be fighting in those skirmishes or those battles. The general's job is not to be cleaning out the latrines. We're working in the mess hall, right? The general's job is very specific, is to set the strategy and their overall vision for what the army is supposed to be doing.

[01:02:19] Right? And that's how you need to think about yourself. This is why it does not pay to be the soloist.

[01:02:25] I think you've just helped everyone. Who identifies themselves as a soloist in bringing that beautiful vision to life of the general. Because who doesn't want to be the general? Who doesn't want to set the strategy and the vision? call the shots in a way. So definitely for me, that helps me a lot in terms of like anchoring myself and rooting myself into.

[01:02:49] Oh, this is actually what I'm trying to achieve. Here's what I want, where I want to get to. I don't want to be the doer all the time. So the next opportunity I'm going to get. I'm actually going to step into that general, and accept the help that I'm getting and potentially even delegate proactively, but that's probably the next step after that.

[01:03:07] So, I love that.

[01:03:09] All right. We've got 1 more to cover. I've already, you know, we've already covered so much, but we want to. Do the superhuman as well, because I feel like there's going to be a couple of superhumans in this audience to

[01:03:22] there always is. Okay. Every time I give these imposter syndrome workshops, there's always at least one person in that group where they're the person who's like, Oh yeah, that's, that's me. That's me. Okay. So the superhuman is a person who thinks they should be able to do all the things in every area of life and work. It's not one or the other. It's all. They're the person who has a really hard time letting go of anything. And because of that, they're constantly overextended and burned out. So they're the person where you think they're on vacation, but they respond to your work email like within 10 minutes.

[01:04:00] that

[01:04:00] They're never satisfied.

[01:04:02] They're always thinking they could do more. So they get that promotion and two days later, they're already over it and they're like, what's next? So. Very burned out and you know how I said in my workshops, right? There's always somebody. This is the person who always thinks as well that they may not be the smartest or the most talented or gifted, but they are thinking in their heads that they're going to outwork everybody to where they, you know, to get to where they need to get

[01:04:32] actually resonates this the sentiment of out, you know, making up for it in a certain way, you may not be the smartest, you may not be the fittest, you may not be the best at this, but you're willing to put in the work more so than anyone else. And I feel like this may also be something that Society teaches us and that we're, we're, we're being taught and that this is where I totally get that the environment that we grow up in, influences.

[01:05:01] You know, these sorts of, these sorts of thoughts and imposter syndrome coming up in terms of wanting to become the superhuman. Now I feel like for everyone who knows a superhuman, we tend to appreciate these people a lot and these people probably also get a lot of praise for being the superhuman and, and, and striving to be the person who does it all and who has it all together.

[01:05:29] I feel like there's a lot of. Praise to these people, especially in the workplace, I often feel like there's less praise on those who tend to say no, who tend to, you know, who tend to have boundaries, who do not try to please everyone else. And a lot of praise on those who handle a high workload, who do it all, who manage really well.

[01:05:50] So talk to me about how does a superhuman go about. Dialing some of that back.

[01:05:58] similar to the perfectionist, right? The perfectionist and the superhuman are both self perpetuating cycles of reward. So it can be very hard to let go of that behavior, but the superhuman tends to come to it on their own. And unfortunately, a little bit too late because they have that breakdown. They have that burnout.

[01:06:19] And I think, you know, you said you were from Germany, burnout is treated very differently in Europe than it is in the U S in Europe. It's an actual medical

[01:06:28] It is.

[01:06:29] like a diagnosis you can receive from your doctor in the U. S. It's not okay. So you cannot take a medical leave for a burnout. In some companies, you might be able to, but it's to that company's discretion.

[01:06:42] Right? It's the same approach. I would say, look at what this is costing you. Also, look at what this is costing your family, because the impact is never to just you. It's to all the people around you, your friends, your family. If you're on that vacation, you're responding to those work emails. What is your family most likely saying or thinking?

[01:07:04] What is your child saying or thinking? Because I've seen this many times, you know, the spouse or the child's like, but mama, I thought you said you were going to be here. I thought you were going to watch me at this play and it can get really difficult because the superhuman brings so many rewards, including a paycheck most often.

[01:07:30] Right. And work tends to be what's called the forgivable. what do you call it? The, for the forgivable trespass, right? There are a lot of things that are forgiven in the name of work because this is how we pay our bills, honey. This is how we put food on the table.

[01:07:47] You know, mommy really wants to be at that play, but mommy also has to work so you can have the money for those beautiful costumes you wear.

[01:07:54] So, I think it enters into this cycle of guilt, okay? We inadvertently maybe gaslight people, or we guilt trip them into saying, you should be okay with this, when really the superhuman behavior, similar to all the other imposter syndrome types, is, yet again, addressing some need, and very often is for that need to feel worthy.

[01:08:16] So I feel like, especially with this type, especially with the superhuman, there is very likely an underlying issue. There is very likely an underlying root cause and reason for why you don't feel worthy. For why you're striving to be the superhuman, for why you need to do it all and be it all. And it's really worth looking into that in the first place.

[01:08:42] and kind of looking into some of those beliefs, some of the self talk. What is it that you believe about yourself? and actually a little bit of a red flag if I'm honest next to the perfectionist in terms of like, Oh, this is something that you should probably be looking at. In order to stay sane, in order to stay healthy and make sure that you stay at this for, for quite some time.

[01:09:03] Because I feel, I often feel like people tend to think about their careers as like right now plus the next couple of years. More often than not, careers are 40 plus years. We're in it for the long run, right? And it's, it's a really long time. And so making it something that is enjoyable, that feels fulfilling, that, stretches us in ways that feels rewarding.

[01:09:27] And at the same time gives us a space to live, is a skill and it's something that, yeah, we should definitely be striving for. And it feels like, especially those types, especially the superhumans. can take a lot of, of, of wisdom away from, your advice on this one. So I really love that.

[01:09:44] Thank you. And you know, something you just said that really caught my attention is when you said the space to live.

[01:09:50] Mm.

[01:09:51] And I think that's really the thing that we should always be thinking about. I phrase it differently, but with your audience, let's say the space to live, right? Why do we do the things we do?

[01:10:02] Why do we have these careers or this work or this job? I firmly believe it's to find some level of enjoyment, but you know, your job or your work should not be the entire thing. It should not be everything to the exclusion of the other parts of your life, right? Like, what is the point of all of this? And it's my firm belief that if you are not doing something that makes you happy, what on earth are you doing? Each of us have a finite amount of time in our lives on this planet. So why on earth would you do anything that doesn't make you happy?

[01:10:42] I love that sentiment. And it, it really brings everyone back into, you know, really anchoring, anchoring themselves into. What it is they're trying to achieve. I often feel like when you reference, you know, what are we there to do in our careers? And I feel like, especially for this audience, we're not in our careers to just earn money and to just make a living.

[01:11:07] I feel like a lot of introverts in this place and a lot of introverts in the workplace, really want to find a level of fulfillment in doing what they do best in adding value and moving the needle in making a real impact. And I often feel like. Taking some of the time back for yourself, refueling your energy and, taking the space to, to do what it is you need to do in order to, honor your personality, honor your natural style is actually going to then in turn, refuel your work output is going to amplify it.

[01:11:43] It's not going to take away from it. So more often than not, I feel like. The, superhuman behaviors, almost take away from us doing our best work and showing up at our best, not only with family, certainly with family, but also at work and also in our career. So, yeah, I love how it all comes together.

[01:12:06] It definitely does, you know? And when we speak about the introverted life here, right? It's like we all have that desire to have impact, to feel significant, right? To see the world, but also to be seen and heard ourselves. I want to say to each of us out there listening, and I say us, cause I'm an introvert and I think you are too, your voice needs to be heard.

[01:12:35] Okay? So go out there and start speaking, share your thoughts, say what you really think. The world needs more people like us.

[01:12:44] I almost want to end on that note because that just ties it all in so beautifully and I really appreciate you all that you took the time to go through the five types in so much detail to give so much actionable advice on how we can move from Where we are, where we might feel stuck and actually move into not only shift our mindsets, but also really tangible tools of how to help us do that.

[01:13:11] so thank you very much for taking the time. Do let us know where everyone can find you and potentially work with you.

[01:13:20] Thank you, Hannah. It's been such a pleasure. You can find me on seattlelifecoach. org. You can also find me on all the socials. So TikTok, Instagram, LinkedIn. If you look up my name, Jewel Kim. Jewel spelled J U L E and Kim, K I M. And my name is Jewel, not Julie, for the love of God. Thank you.

[01:13:43] There's a lot of auto correction when it comes to Jewel. It auto corrects into Julie, which is what happened to me earlier, but I corrected it. Jewel. Thank

[01:13:51] you so much.

[01:13:53] Thank

[01:13:53] you for catching that.

[01:13:55] well, thank you so much for coming on to the podcast. I truly enjoyed our conversation. I'm sure everybody did, and, I feel like we've got lots of notes to take away from this too.

[01:14:05] So thank you so, so much.

[01:14:07] Thank you, Hannah.