Welcome to the business superfan podcast.

Our guest today is Michael McDonald with M W M search.

Welcome, Michael.

Hey, thank you, Freddie.

Appreciate it.

Thanks for having me on.

So Michael, tell us about how you got started

into the recruiting industry.

Fred, how much time do we have here?

I guess a half hour, right?

Well, let me kind of bring it down and synthesize it.

Started while I was in school, I took a position in retail and

that helped me pay my tuition.

And so as a retail salesperson, and so after school, after I got my degree,

I, found a company, a family owned business, and they had 20 stores in

the Midwest, Wisconsin, Illinois.

That's where I'm originally from in Chicago.

And so I, took a position with them and started as an assistant store manager, and

then I moved into retail store manager.

But I saw that it was a family owned business.

So I wanted to move up in the company.

And I realized pretty quickly that the culture wasn't gonna allow that they were

going to hire people and their family.

So that's what drove me to actually find my second position, which, working

for a meat company in Illinois, right.

And, I'll tie all this together in the meat company, wanted to get into retail.

They wanted to sell wholesale.

So they need a sales guy that had a personality to go out, talk

with retail people and sell them.

At the time it was, you know, sliced beef and things of that nature, right?

So I did that for a while and then the company changed direction.

So I was, well, I think they used to call it, they used to call it

rightsizing when they let you go.

And I couldn't figure out who it was right for because it

certainly wasn't right for me.

And I guess it was right for them, right?

So, the next position I found was through a recruiting call and they

kept casting me out to find a job.

And I'd come in as a strong second.

Because I didn't have the technical back.

Eventually, they liked my tenacity.

So they said, hey, have you ever thought of being a recruiter?

You have to deal with a lot of rejection.

So, I said no, I hadn't.

So, they gave me a book on CNC cam and I learned the terminology and I talked to

anybody that talked to me and learned how to think what was required in the skills.

And that led me after a while, the company that hired me split up the two partners.

And so I formed a partnership and that was my first opportunity

to be in my own business.

I had it with my partner, and we did that for about eight years.

It was CAD CAM specialists.

So we were in the computer graphics industry.

That's where you and I met.

You placed me in a couple of, positions over those years.

I mean, decades ago.

And we're still talking.

Yes.

So, there you go.

So what that led me to, I had that business for about eight years.

And then we decided to split for various reasons.

And I started my own business, but what I have to say is when I look at my career

and I went over this a little bit, I thought, you know, there's some common

threads here that , I've always, what kept me motivated and moving forward.

And then we'll talk about this today.

And when I could, you know, number one, I liked helping people.

So all the positions that I had was kind of a helping position.

I like creativity and I like problem solving and that's

what selling is in many ways.

And I like the ownership, right?

So those are the themes that I look at that have been drivers

for me in my business and brought me to where I'm at 28 years now.

Recruiting

That's a long time to be in that career.

I mean, most people don't last that long in those type of careers.

So, you know, that's I think it's something about your integrity.

In the way you've handled people.

And like I say, I have personal experience because I think you placed me in at least

5 different organizations back in the day.

And you always, gave me good advice, gave me good direction, and I always

got the W, and I always got the job.

So, you know, my thank you's back to you, because you helped , my career.

Another reason I'm happy with what I do.

I like helping people.

That's great.

It shows.

It comes across.

I mean, like I say, we've known each other for decades.

So, what strategies do businesses, use or should use to attract

the most talented employees?

Well, I think companies that are very good at building the kind

of culture and value proposition that people want to be a part of, right?

So it's that culture that builds that.

And I think of it in terms of, well, in terms of sports, , you know, recruiting

an individual for a sports team, the first you're going to look at first element is

going to look at somebody that has the skills, right, to perform, but you're

also looking at performance skills.

So there's two components.

There's the technical skills.

Can you throw a ball up?

But then there's a performance.

How do you interact?

How do you feed out?

How do you work?

And in situations that are always changing dynamic and they also the

third component that I think sports teams use or look for his potential.

Potential is key and especially because you have to build different

layers of capabilities, but you have to find the potential.

And I look at you and your career, Freddie, I think, you know, who was the

one that saw when you were an application engineer, you talk about this in your

book that said, Hey, you know, I see a lot of similarities to a sales position.

We're looking to fill because Freddie's got tenacity.

He can overcome your job as an application engineer.

You learn how to overcome objections.

You learn how to solve problems, right, deal with different,

read different systems when you're presenting information.

The only thing that holds a lot of people back in making a transition

from an application engineer to a salesperson is something that you

don't have, and they have, and that is, they don't ask for the order.

They keep talking about the technology, and this is that, and this is all great.

Wait, let's get to the bottom line.

We have something to sell, let's sell it.

And that's something that someone saw.

They saw that potential in you.

And as a result, they made millions of dollars.

So that's a good example.

I think I also think about what, Jim Collins and maybe you read his book,

you know, Good to Great, great book.

And, I'll quote Jim, he goes, one of the things that leaders can do

to put their company on the path of greatness, or at least the path of

being a great being greater than just good, is to hire the right people.

If you hire the right people, you're going to have the right culture development.

And also, every time you hire someone in your company, you're determining the

path that your company is going to take.

Is it going to be an average company?

Cause I'm hiring average people.

Is it going to be a good company?

Or is it going to be a great company?

So I think those are important things to look at.

So attracting, keeping people, attracting people is the culture now.

Oh absolutely.

I 100 percent agree with that.

Because you look at a business and if you really own the business, you

should be able to walk away from that business and that business

should be able to run by itself.

And if it cannot run by itself, but a team you've got in place,

you really have a glorified job.

I mean, that, that's the reality of it.

And so it's not a business, it's a glorified job, but if you're absolutely

100%, if you got a team, that's got a good culture and they're credible people,

they care about the company because they know the company cares about them.

They'll take care of the business.

They'll take care of the customers, they'll handle it and

you don't have to worry about it.

So a hundred percent agree.

Right.

So how can managers ensure that their employees are satisfied, and that's

a perfect segue, and motivated at work, so that, they become superfans of the company

that they're working for, and they're sharing that with, their friends, their

families, and associates that they know.

Well, here again, you hire motivated people, you onboard them.

And you don't be motivated back to culture again, hire the right people

hire people that are motivated.

I think we have to agree that most people are motivated in what

direction and in what way and it comes from the culture, how it

directs people, how it values people.

So, when you're interviewing people, you're looking not just for the skills,

but you're looking for performance because past behavior is a better

predictor of future performance.

So if you want to get motivated people, satisfied people, employees,

and keep them motivated, you hire them right once from the beginning.

I think about this particular, this one individual that I placed as a VP of sales.

And, when he went in, he was told one thing.

And then several weeks later, he was still trying to find his compensation

package, still trying to get direction.

And the CEO of the company and the CFO of the company were at odds.

And it was really demotivating him.

And so finally he called me up and I said, you need to face this, you need

to call the CEO, tell him where you're feeling, get it out and talk about it.

Communication is really important.

Help people work through things.

You know, the estimate is 70 percent of new hires, or hires,

determine whether they're going to leave a company, within six months.

70 percent of people will determine whether they're

going to stay with the company.

So that onboarding and that support is so important.

Some companies have it or they don't hire you and they put you

in a position and then you don't hear from unless there's an issues.

Can you share a story of how you helped a company, sort

of identify the type of individual that they would be looking for?

That's what I do for all the time, Freddie.

Well, that's what I want you to share.

I know that you do that all the time.

Share how you go about doing that.

Thank you, I can say it in, in three words.

Skills, personality, culture.

So how do you go about hiring people as you sit down and look at the skills you

need, but that's, I've hired people.

I have to say that we're 70 percent of the skills required.

I've never hired a 100 percent person in my career.

I've hired lots of people for, and what makes a difference is

those second two components.

Having the right personality traits, how a person's wired, and then

secondly, and next, having the culture, take a person out of one culture,

put them in another, and you're not going to have the same value.

And I can refer you to this book, it's called The Gods of Management,

and it's a great book, it talks about culture, it talks about how

you feel, and how you're valued.

And so those are the ways, we look at the skills, yes, but

I'll come back to my client.

And we'll put the skills in one category.

Once we've met those, we're going to also come back and we're going

to look at that personality.

So we use behavioral interviewing and our interviewing process.

So we'll set up because past behavior is a better indicator of future performance.

So we'll also identify and qualify those that's in most job description.

Good, writing skills, good communication skills, right?

What does that mean?

Right?

Let's, let's qualify that.

Let's set up an anchor, right?

And let's say maybe it's ambiguity.

That's a big issue today, being able to deal with the change

the world is throwing us.

So we'll have the anchor of ambiguity.

We'll set up questions that are indirect questions.

Tell me about a time.

So it's storytelling.

Tell me a story about your experience in the past.

I don't care if it was yesterday or 10 years ago.

And from that story, you'd be surprised how much you'll find out about people.

And then, , and so then ,we use that in conjunction with the skills

and then we factor in the culture.

We look at our client, we have our client look at themselves

introspectively and saying, well, what are you going to provide this person?

What are your skills?

You say you want to hire a junior, hire a person you want to met.

Are you in a position to mentor?

Are you in a position to develop?

Are you so busy closing business and wearing 3 different hats that

you won't give that person what that person needs to be successful?

And so, again, that that relates back to retention.

You know, people don't feel value.

So, those are that's our approach.

We have a team of researchers, a very thorough approach, but we help our clients

stand, understand, I guess, in two words.

What you're hiring.

Secondly, who you're hiring.

Very important who you're hiring.

Oh, absolutely.

That's 100 percent because the reality is the cost of onboarding

somebody is quite expensive.

And then having that person quit in six months.

Because they don't feel appreciated.

The culture isn't there, et cetera.

And now you've got to re onboard somebody.

So the cost associated with all that stuff is astronomical.

And a lot of businesses sometimes have that mindset.

Well, you know, I'll just get the cheapest person in here because, it's not costing

me that much money, but in the end it's really costing them a lot of money.

A lot of studies done on that, Freddie.

And that, and one of them that comes to mind is and it's pretty substantial.

It said that the cost of hiring one person is one and a half

times their on target earnings.

So if the person is going to make 100 000 that year, it costs you

150, 000 to make that mistake.

Why?

Well, you think about the time you spent recruiting or hiring a recruiter?

You think about the time you spent onboarding, training people?

How about the loss of business?

He has a million dollar quota.

Well, He's not productive.

You lost six months.

You just lost at 40 percent margin.

How much money did you lose?

So add all that together.

And there's an equation and it comes up to about one and a half times the

on target expense of proposition.

Oh, absolutely.

And also very demotivated.

It also , demotivates a lot of people in the company.

They start seeing people that don't fit.

And that are let go and it, scares me, quite frankly.

And then you can factor in, okay, let's say, it's a person

and then you've got someone else that's training that person.

So now you've got double loss of productivity because you've got

that person doing the training.

And if that person is not a good trainer, that sets up the new person for failure.

So now they're frustrated and it just, it starts to snowballs and it's the

culture just starts to fall apart.

Right, exactly.

So what tactics can be used to develop a culture of loyalty, there's

a perfect segue into retaining people because, we're talking about the cost of

onboarding and then if someone disappears.

So let's talk about creating that culture to retain those people.

What can be done?

So companies today have to be willing to flex as the

work culture shifts in new ways.

COVID's had a tremendous impact on how, it's affected companies today,

people working remote puts a lot more stress on our manager, a lot more

difficulty in building a team, etc.

And in ways that we also have to flex because we other ways

that are going to come up.

So I think that flexibility is really important.

And I think I have to.

This segues right into Freddie's book, which I brought with me, right?

And Chapter, Retention, so, I'm going to quote what, what Freddie put in his

book here from Carnegie, and it's, people work for money, but go the extra mile

for recognition, praise, and rewards.

So you go back to how do you build loyalty and how do you retain people?

You build the right environment for them and you value them.

And, that's going to really have great impact on that, if not everything, really.

Yeah, one of my quotes in the book is, people will crawl through broken

glass for appreciation and recognition.

Right, yeah.

And I toss that out to people and I say, am I wrong, tell me I'm wrong.

I have not heard one person yet tell me that I was wrong, because it's true.

As humans, we want to be appreciated, and we want to be recognized.

And it's one thing to say, hey, Michael, thanks a lot for a great job.

I appreciate it.

And it's another thing to say, Hey, everybody, I want to take a moment

to recognize Michael for his great effort that he's done with our

companies, helped us everything else.

It changes the dynamics.

It changes the dynamics in the way you feel, and it changes the dynamics in how

everybody else feels in the organization.

\yeah, the awareness ,of keeping and it, ,it's so right.

And that's because, again, the job seekers today.

Are putting a lot of emphasis on the quality of life values, right?

So, I want to work from home.

, I want to reduce my travel.

I want to have fewer hours.

I want to take a longer vacation and you've got to have a company

that flexes with that, to be able to provide and support.

And that's going to build the loyalty.

I have to tell you about an example.

A company that I worked with 20 years ago, and I was always calling this particular,

manager's people because I needed a certain skill and, he had about 10 people

and I would call him, call them and I could never get anybody to take the job.

No one, they'd all be always say, well, yeah, Mike, I'll think

about it and they come back and so on their land and interest.

So one day, about a year or so later, I happened to run into this guy at

a conference, Autofact conference to make to Freddy, you don't

remember this coming conference.

And, I walked up to him and I said, John, I have to ask you a question.

You know, every time I call your people up and I talk about a job, and

I said, Hey, that sounds really good.

And then I'll get a, I'll call 'em back and I'll say, well, now I changed my

mind and I'm gonna stay where I'm at.

And I thought, what is the secret sauce?

I mean, what are you doing here that keeps that loyalty of people?

And he said, yeah, quite frankly, Mike, it's small things, when I hire

the employee, I usually out of my own pocket, we'll give him a hundred

dollars to take his wife out to dinner.

If the guys has some issue, because most of the people this is this

position was for field service.

So the guy was always on a plane.

He would leave Sunday.

That was the nature of the job and come back on Thursday away from his family.

So, if he, if something came up, I would accommodate the person.

And if they can, they would come to me and tell me, hey, Mike

McDonald, Michael McDonald, call me and told me about this job.

And they'd say, what do you think, John?

And see, sometimes I would say, you know, that's a good job.

You ought to think about it.

And, they trusted him.

And he kept it strictly confidential.

But he said, I want people to want me to want to be loyal.

And if they don't, then it's probably time for them to leave.

Really a smart guy.

And again, doing, back to your book, doing a lot of things that

really built that loyalty and trust.

It's the little things that are the big things.

It really is.

And it goes a long distance.

Yeah.

It's what I call the unexpected extra.

It's, doing something, like giving that, hundred dollars

to take the wife out to dinner.

I mean, that's unexpected, that, that makes a person feel,

wow, this is, a cool place.

This guy's cool.

And, that sets a precedent, a positive precedent.

And when he'd hire the person, I didn't tell

you, this is pretty interesting.

He'd send the wife a dozen roses.

Thank you.

Welcoming her and him to our family.

His name is company name, and that goes a long way, especially when

you've got issues that come up that deal as people do in their family,

and, you've got that support of that wife behind you or significant other.

Right, so, so how can companies identify steps that they can take

to turn their current employees into business superfans and promoting that

business to everybody that they know?.

Well, I think here again, it starts really to create the environment

that supports people's values and, I would think, I think about, there was a,

there was a theorist, psychotherapist, family marriage counselor that I, had

read some of her books and basically she said for people to feel valued and

to want to be part of a company or an organization, two things have to be there.

Number one, they have to feel they're being listened to.

Don't have to, agree with them.

And then two, that you value them.

You value their opinion.

You don't have to agree with them.

Those two things can be very powerful in developing the kind of spirit

that a person is, and a company is for that matter, that will be turn

them into supporting their company, wanting to be sponsoring their

company and endorsing their companies.

And, especially today with all the ways social media, the first thing a lot of

people do is they'll go out and glass dory, find out what your people think,

why they left, why they're staying.

So it's really, those little things again, recognition.

goes a long way and thanking them and building that environment that people

feel that they've trusted and they talk about there that wins people over.

I think also things that, having team sports and creating this

environment of exciting place to be, it isn't just about a job, right?

It's more.

And again, I have to say, in this world we live in today, and a lot of

younger people, they really look at that quality of life very, very importantly.

100 percent true.

And, you mentioned a good thing there was that letting people voice their

opinions and keeping your mouth shut and whether because you may not agree with

it, but you give them the recognition to be able to state their perception

because an individual's perception is their reality, right or wrong.

And that's how they see it.

And, surprisingly, I've had experiences where I've had people

talk about stuff and I completely did not agree with their perception.

But as I thought about it, and I looked into it their perception

made sense because of certain things that have taken place.

And so you make some tweaks to those things and all of a sudden

their perception starts changing into a more positive manner.

So it's creating a culture where people feel comfortable to being

able to go up to management and be able to suggest ideas or communicate

their frustrations and everything else without the worry of a reprisal.

Right.

Exactly.

And some, cultures are more in tune to that than others.

and that's why I have to say, I'm promoting this guy's

book as Ezra's book also.

It's, God's a man.

So how does it feel to work in a culture?

How do you value it?

And in some cultures, , unfortunately people can feel like they're

invisible, within that culture and you have to help them see them as a

valued contributor to the company.

So it puts the onus on the manager and the company.

To, do that.

Yeah, because I've run into companies and talked with people.

It says, well, you know, they should be grateful.

I'm giving them a job.

And I just shake my head.

It says wait a minute, no employees, no business.

So let's change that mindset because that's, not the right

mindset and it comes across.

And so now you got employees, they're doing the bare minimum because.

They know that they're a commodity and there's no value, placed on them.

And this, of course, as you experienced and I and, my

career and companies I've worked with where you're dealing with people that

are micromanagers, it extinguishes people, it extinguishes them, and

they certainly don't feel valued.

They don't feel like they have any ownership at all.

This is the way you do it.

This is my way or the highway.

So how can people work and how long can they work in that kind of environment?

Not very long.

No, or you got an environment where, they get verbally trained.

I mean,, here's a doozy.

So you get into an environment where people are verbally trained.

So no SOPs, standing operating procedures, no scope of

work, no none of that stuff.

It's a verbal training, and then when mistakes are made, because we only

remember 20 percent of what we're told, they start chastising the people, you

did this wrong, this is wrong, why didn't you remember to do this and that?

And now the person starts to feel belittled, and it just

snowballs, it completely snowballs.

And I have to say, and this is what I and, talked at the beginning

of our conversation, what we do and how we do our, our search process is keeping

the candidate informed, helping the candidate understand the environment.

So, how many times, and maybe this has happened to you a couple of times,

you go in, you're told something in the interview process, and your first

week, you get in there, you're like, oh, this isn't what I signed up for.

Yeah,

They never told me this.

And so I think it goes back to this.

So the understanding the culture is on the ownership is to on the

candidate and this is a whole different subject looking at the culture.

He's getting him.

He or she is getting himself into.

So back to this book, the gods of management.

He does a real great job.

Charles Handy, years of experience in organizational development.

And I'll give you an example.

He used the Greek God, the Zeus God, and maybe this is, I'm

sure you've experienced this.

So in the Zeus culture, the symbol of the Zeus culture, is a spider web and Zeus

is the spider in the center of the web.

And it's called a trust culture.

So everything, and this is usually an entrepreneur.

Everything's in Zeus's head.

You never know when you're doing a good job, but you know, real

quickly when you're doing a bad job.

Right

And Zeus comes in on Friday.

And he says, we're going to do it this way.

Right?

And everyone rallies to the ship.

We're going to do that.

Then Monday comes in and says, Nah, I changed my mind.

We're going to do it this way.

And, how you're valued in that culture is how Zeus sees you.

Zeus likes you.

You don't even have to be performing very well, and you'll do well.

I'm sure you know, people, and we know people, Freddie, that have had that kind

of, you wake up one day and say, how'd this guy get to be a vice president?

Right.

He couldn't even sell.

Well, it's I guess the Peter principle.

It's the Zeus culture, right?

And that's the way Zeus promotes him.

And all of a sudden, Zeus company gets bought, and next thing you

know, the guy is a superstar.

Now on the other hand, he talks about the culture that's, he

would call the Apollo culture.

And the symbol there is a Greek temple, because there's pillars.

And when you're in that culture, is a, is all about fitting in.

So you're a round peg and a round hole.

And you're hired for a If no one's ahead of you and you're politically correct,

it's hard to move over to another pillar by him because it threatens everybody.

So here you want to be creative.

Here's a covering book.

Let's stay in those lines and that's what you're going to get.

And there's only so many guys that are going to make over their quota

because it's not about standing out.

It's about fitting in.

So you can imagine Freddie, you take a manager from that culture, put him in

a Zeus culture, or vice versa, right?

Or let's go to the fact, if you're an employee and you go in and you're

used to a Zeus culture, or, and then you go into a Apollo culture, you

go, what, wow, where am I at, right?

But people don't think about it as important as it is.

It's great book for people that are looking for a job or

people that are also managing.

So how do you move and work in that culture?

Yeah, absolutely.

Correct.

I mean, culture is everything in a company and people will stay in an

organization because it's a great culture and they feel appreciated.

They, happy to do their jobs and it becomes not so much about money anymore.

It's about the fact that they enjoy what they're doing.

They enjoy working for that company and it's a completely

different mindset than it is.

Oh, I got to go to this office again and I got to go and do

this, sit here for eight hours.

Do this crap.

It's a different mindset.

Right, I can tell you that after hiring, many people over the last

30 years now, many different companies, different cultures, the gloom that

holds people together is feeling valued.

And, money isn't the only driver.

And I guess, I think about the movie, when you build it, they will come, right?

When you build it, they will come.

And , I think it's the same thing when you build the right environment, people will

come to that environment, world spread, the employees in that company, they'll

talk to other people, you'll have a draw

will become business superfans will be promoting it, other

businesses that work in conjunction with that business will be saying,

hey man, that's a great place.

How do I get to work for them?

Yeah.

And it just, it starts the machine rolling and, that's so important that

it's unfortunately, some large companies have got that figured out and then some

small companies have got that figured out.

But a lot of times they're really small companies that are medium sized

companies don't have it figured it out.

Right.

And I think it started, you talked, we talked a little bit about the

interviewing process that we use.

I think the interviewing process itself, there's a here and

now in the interview process.

So what you get in the process while you're interviewing is pretty much what

you're going to get if you hire the person or what the person is going to

get if they're hired by the company.

So if you're going, if you're sending your resume in and

you're looking at an opportunity.

And the company keeps pushing off changing the time that you've

scheduled right to interview..

They bring you into the interview and it's supposed to be.

An hour, you set aside and all of a sudden it's a half hour, right?

So all that experience should start to make you think about,

what am I getting myself into here?

Because if I get this in the interview, what am I going

to get this if they hire me?

Are they giving me the scoop, right?

The right scoop.

And I think it's so I think it's important to have an interview process that's That

values people as they move, because most of the people you want are employed,

or from a competitor, so you have to value them, because they talk to other

people, and it makes it really difficult for companies to recover from that.

I don't think they realize the impact.

They say we're a separation of six, but I think it's closer than that.

And people talk, especially in certain industries, the industry that I

came from, Freddie, I mean, that it expanded, then it contracted, but

people stayed in touch and word spreads.

What's the first thing you do when you're hiring someone, you call someone up.

Hey, Freddie, are you interested?

I'm over here.

Would you like to come over and work with me?

Why?

Because you know who they are, whatever Freddie is, I know I can throw anything

at him and he'll learn it and he'll, you know, the personality really.

And there's a great instrument that we use.

It's we recommend it's called the OAD, Organizational Analysis and Design.

It's a simple test.

It's a survey.

It's not a personality thing.

It's a survey and on skills.

And what it looks at is, it looks at seven traits, assertiveness,

extroversion, patience, and detail.

Then it looks at versatility, creativity, and emotional control.

Those seven traits graphed out.

And now you get a pattern of a person, of their, of what

they like, and how they'll fit.

And if you're looking for a hunter, a sales guy you're going to find

someone up in the upper right.

He's going to be a generalist, but he's also going to be socially oriented.

If you're looking for a program, he's probably going to be a specialist on

the bottom, and he's going to be a, technically oriented person, right?

And so, by giving a survey before you finalize the interview, you get a pattern

of someone, and now you can explore that with them and find out a little bit more.

If hiring a hunter, I want someone that's very high assertive,

extroversion, patience , not so much, because I want him to close.

Detail, he's probably not going to be that detailed.

You're going to have to hunt him down for his expense account, because

he's looking to do business, right?

He's a hunter.

And if you want the farmer, I hate to use that, but people identify with it, someone

that you're assigning accounts to develop those accounts, you're probably hiring

someone that has, is assertive somewhat.

more extroverted or as extroverted, but more patient and more detailed because

he's managing an existing account.

But the last three are very important.

And that is versatility, some people are more versatile than others.

So I give you something to do and your job is X, Y, Z.

And then I come in and I say, gee, Fred, could you help me out?

I knew you took a couple of courses in accounting.

Could you look at these account payable things and help me with that?

So you throw stuff at them and they're versatile.

They can do it and they don't mind doing it, right?

They have that built in.

That's how they're wired.

Other people.

What you see is what you get.

You give them something.

That's what I was hired for.

They don't deviate at all.

If you change it, it's disruptive, right?

That's a personality trait, right?

So if you're a startup company or you're doing a company that you're going to

go through some change, you better hire that guy with high versatility.

Also, emotional control.

If you want someone that's , managing people, you want a high practicality,

but a balanced emotion, too.

But you don't want someone that's totally emotional, you

want control on that rating.

And then the last thing, creativity.

I give someone something to do, and it doesn't work out, that's okay.

Fred, you come back and say, you know, this isn't working out,

but I got, I thought about this.

What if we try this, right?

That creativity is so important.

Those three traits are the most important, I think, in any hire,

especially in today's world.

Very important, but it's a great instrument and those kind of tools people

can incorporate in their hiring process.

And it's going to, it's going to improve their hiring decision phenomenon.

Right.

Okay.

We'll have to have another conversation about, from the employee perspective.

Well, thank you.

Yeah, So how can people find you, Michael?

My website, it's M W M search.

com.

So M W M search.

com.

And my phone number is 831 646 0300.

I'm on the West Coast, but I work throughout North America.

And, that's the best way to get through to me.

Okay.

And what do you have for our listeners?

What are you offering our listeners here.

Well, I think if they're interested in anything I've talked about,

as far as if I can help them in hiring people, help them in any way that way.

I happy to give them 20 minute consulting free.

Just call me up and we'll talk, if I can't help you, I can probably

point you in the right direction.

Well, Michael, it was great having you on the

business superfan podcast.

I hope you had a great time here and thank you much.

And we look forward to having you on the show in the near future.

I love your book, Fred.

Thank you.

Appreciate it, buddy.

Thank you.