Okay, we're here.

Hi.

Okay, so this is going to be a simulcast show between the get you Some Productions podcast, which is the podcast, the main podcast where we talk about producing music.

And I have to remember the intro.

Get you some Productions podcast is a podcast covering all things related to music production, from the first note to the last fan and everything in between.

So we are not afraid to cover pretty much anything that has anything to do with music production.

I don't know what episode this is.

Maybe 100 something.

100.

3, 4, 5, 6.

Okay.

So that's the get yout Some Production side of things.

But I actually.

I'm also going to release this on the handshake website and YouTube channel.

And that's because the song we're going to be talking about is a song that belongs to my band, the Handshake.

The Handshake is just a brand band that's like rock and roll.

I'm a child of the 90s, so not technically.

I was born in the 70s, but.

We grew up then.

Me too.

Yeah.

So, but, you know, that's kind of the music that I sort of liked when I was a teenager, which is like 90s rock and roll.

So that's kind of the Handshake in a nutshell.

So I'm very, very excited to have Kat Reinert here, and she is a wonderful musician, singer, songwriter.

But.

And I'm going to ask you to talk about yourself a little bit.

Sure.

But today she's been very gracious enough to come and talk to me about my song.

And the reason I wanted to do this is because I think it's valuable to, I don't know, dig into the songs and have other people take a second look.

Well, actually, just between me and you, since we're.

Since we don't know each other that well, I consider myself to be an absolute shit songwriter.

You know, Like, I. Yeah, I'm a. I'm a pretty good guitar player.

And I think of myself as being a very serviceable singer and songwriter.

Okay.

Like, I'm a functional singer and I'm a functional songwriter.

And so it's my.

It's, you know, in my interest to just invite people to come and talk.

And I think you're probably a much better songwriter than I am, so maybe you have some insights into the song and we can just talk about it.

We can also talk about songwriting and process and, you know, I guess whatever comes up.

That sounds great.

So can you tell the audience a little bit about yourself?

Yeah.

So as you said, I'm A musician, songwriter.

And I actually started as a jazz musician and I did that for about 15 years in New York City.

Sang all the standards, did all the things.

And then I discovered that I really liked writing my own stuff instead of singing somebody else's.

And so I started digging into that and I've been doing that now for 15, 20 years.

It kind of overlaps a little bit.

So I'm not young, but I don't care.

I love that.

I love that.

I'm almost 49 and I don't mind admitting that.

And I think it's important that women understand that, like, age is just a number, doesn't mean anything.

It's just, just there.

It's how many years you've lived, you know, and how much experience you have.

So, yeah, I've put out five independent albums and eight singles.

I'm working on a new EP that I'm producing myself and laying in all the things.

I started as a pianist and a singer, and then in the Pandemic, I started playing guitar and I got pretty serious.

Like, I practiced two hours a day for almost two years during the pandemic and starting in 2020.

In 2020?

No, 2021, really, I kind of started in 2020, but the way I was learning wasn't working for me.

So I switched and I learned how to play guitar by learning chord changes and, or chord shapes and strumming patterns.

And I would write a song every two weeks for my guitar teacher using those things.

That's how I learned how to play guitar.

And at this point, I can do like a two hour set solo on guitar.

And I don't think I've actually practiced piano in probably two and a half, three years because guitar is way more fun.

And I also don't own a piano.

So there's something about picking up a real instrument that has always been really appealing to me.

So, like when I'm at a piano, like it's fun now because I have different voicings and things like that.

But yeah, I've been in New York for the last, since I moved here in 1980, 1996 to go to school and then kind of stayed.

I left a few times to go do more school.

So I actually have a PhD in music education from the University of Miami, specializing in popular music.

And yeah, and currently I'm a professor at Berkeley College of Music.

And I go up to Boston every week during the school year and I come back.

So I go back and forth for what, 28 weeks, I think.

And I am a Full time full professor of songwriting in the department of songwriting at Berkeley.

And I teach a lot of songwriting classes.

I did the math for like, you know how Spotify has this like, like wrapped things at the ends of the year.

Like, I always hate those because my numbers are never like what I wish they were, you know, but so instead I like figured out how many songs I assess in a year based on the number of students in my classes and the number of students a week.

And it's 3,000.

So I evaluate, listen to, analyze and give responses to 3,000 songs a year.

So it's a lot.

Yeah, it's a hundred a week usually during the school year.

So you know, you start seeing patterns, you start seeing, you know, specific things people will do at different levels.

Um, and it's, I mean, it's really fun.

Like I, I totally enjoy doing that.

And then I write a lot.

Probably three to five a week on good weeks when I'm not working on a million other projects.

But it's at least one a week.

And in January it's every day.

So I do a challenge in January.

You should join.

It's really fun.

My colleague and I from Songwriting for Music educator.

So I co own a company and trying to empower K through 12 educators to learn how to write songs so they can write songs with their students.

And every year we do a songwriting challenge.

So it's a song a day.

So the idea is generally be creative, try to write something every day.

Whether it's a verse, a chorus, I kind of go the whole extra mile and actually finish a song.

I give myself an hour, a prompt and I just write and then I put it out on Instagram.

So if you go to my Instagram Rhinart, you can find three years worth of songs every single day that I've written in like an hour.

And my students responses are usually like, really?

What if they're bad?

And I'm like, well, some of them are terrible.

Like, but they're done.

And that's like the most important thing about writing a song is to finish it.

Because you have no idea what's possible with that song until you have the finished first draft of the song and then you can decide, oh, actually this part is not a bridge, it's, it belongs somewhere else.

Like you can't see everything until it's finished.

And so if you quit before, I mean, not to say that I don't quit some songs before they're done, but at this point I've written so many songs that I know that it's not going to work.

Or it's not.

It's just not.

It's not something I want to continue on.

And so I'll quit for that reason, but not because I don't think it's good enough to write.

It's just more just eh.

This isn't going anywhere.

And I know that at this point.

So.

Yeah, I don't know.

That's kind of long winded and a little bit, you know, haphazard.

But yeah, that's who I am.

That was perfect.

So I didn't know you were a professor at Berkeley.

Yeah, I'm a full professor.

Like all the way at the.

For the Food Chain.

Fucking love that.

Dude.

You're a boss.

Well, I try.

It's a cool gig.

It sounds fun.

Super fun.

Yeah.

Okay, can we.

Can you tell me.

I'm sort of you.

So the audience will hear the fact that there's.

I'm in my office today.

Yeah.

And they're doing construct.

Constant.

I'm in industry city, Brooklyn and.

And it's constant construction here.

So there's like.

And I think this is an old warehouse.

This is.

It's basically office space built into an old warehouse.

Okay.

And the old warehouse is very like masonry situation.

Like.

Yeah, yeah.

Like there's these big masonry sort of like things.

You know.

It's a beautiful office, truly.

But.

But you know, there's constant insanity with the like jackhammers and like masonry drills and things.

So I am riding the mute button as we chat just to give other people give you actually some reprieve.

That's all good.

Some reprieve.

Can we.

So I can't help but want to learn a little bit more about you now.

Sure.

So let's talk about influences just briefly.

Like who are your big influences?

I love shit like this.

I love finding out.

Well, as a songwriter, Joni Mitchell, it's obvious, I think in some of my stuff becoming more and more.

The more I've dealt in guitar, John Mayer.

Those are probably the two biggest like in terms of songwriting influences and then musical influences, definitely.

Bill Evans, Miles Davis, like all the jazz people like you can hear jazz in my stuff.

I call myself a jazz influenced singer songwriter because no matter what I do, I can't seem to get away from it.

No matter how simple I make anything, it's just there's something about it that like speaks to that and I've sort of just leaned into it.

And then other songwriters that I really love.

Sara Bareilles, Brandi Carlisle.

Who else?

Carole King, you Know, like, Taylor Swift, a thousand percent.

Like, I just think she's brilliant on so many levels.

And.

And then, of course, like, I mean, my friends are generally the other people that influence me the most.

So, like, my band.

My friend Nicole's rightis, who.

I don't know if you know her.

She won a Grammy.

Like an independent.

Crazy.

Like, she won and.

And she won.

That's a familiar name.

Yeah.

So she won a Grammy two years ago for best Vocal Jazz album, and it was all original music, which has never been done.

She's the only person to ever do that in the jazz vocal category.

And so it's just, like, really cool.

Or my friend Lila Bialy, who's a Canadian singer, songwriter, pianist, I would say, like, my friends influenced me a lot.

Like, before the pandemic, I was probably going out three or four nights a week to hear Friends.

After the pandemic, it's become a little more difficult, my job.

I get tired going back and forth to Boston and so.

But I mean, also the people that I work with, I mean, there are 35 songwriters in the department, or 39 or something like that, and they're all really amazing songwriters.

And, you know, it's a big, open, like, office space with kind of cubicle kind of stuff where we all work.

And so it's a hang often about songwriting, guitars.

It's a really cool place to be.

And then my students are the other people that influence me.

So, as I said, I'm producing my own ep.

And one of the reasons is because all my students are bringing in, like, these.

I mean, every week.

They're, like, almost fully produced things where I'm just, like, listening to them and going like, oh, my God, how did you do this in a week?

Not only did you write the song, but you produced it out to this.

And, I mean, they know they're using splice and, like, all kinds of different tools to put this stuff together.

But it's fairly inspiring because I didn't learn production in any part or any of my degrees.

That was never anything.

That was definitely not a music education PhD.

That's the funniest degree I have.

But, yeah, it is.

It's the one I'm very proud of, but it's also the one that doesn't fully align with who I am as a human.

But it got me to a lot of really cool things, so there were really good things about doing it and.

But yeah, so my students, too.

Like how.

Yeah, just all the people that influenced me and.

Because I didn't get to do production.

I just kind of learned it by myself.

I actually learned it from.

Started learning it from one of my former students who gave me lessons during the pandemic on production and then just different people.

Michael Leonard is currently working with me on, like, he's a Steely Dan's music director and works with a bunch of different people.

And he's the husband of one of my dearest friends, Jamie Leonard, who's a singer in New York and songwriter.

And so, yeah, just trying to just always get better, push the envelope, you know, be a better teacher, be a better musician.

I don't know, go into the 21st century, you know, learn stuff.

Don't go old in my brain.

So, yeah, be curious.

Okay.

So I, I, I can't tell you how much I love having this show because I.

And I'm feeling a little bit.

I'm feeling.

I.

Usually the show is not about me, and so I.

Well, we have to get your song.

I know.

We have to get to my song.

So I.

So I have to tell you that I.

So I feel so lucky to have you on the show right now.

Well, thanks.

That I and I, really.

So before we started recording, I did tell you that I wanted to have you on the show to do a formal interview, and I want my partner to be involved because that's the way we do things.

Yeah.

And now more than ever, I wish we were doing that instead.

Oh, come on.

We're gonna have so much fun with your song.

You'll get to learn all about music.

Yeah.

Yeah.

We're gonna have fun either way.

But I do want to say that I'm so happy that you're on the show, and I'm so happy to connect with you, and I. I just love connecting with people, and I could tell how special you are.

Well, I don't know.

I just try to be me.

Yeah, that's.

That's.

I'm really bad at compliments, so just don't take offense.

We'll let it go.

It's terrible.

Okay.

So I'm like, okay, cool.

We're good.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

You're good.

You're fine.

So we'll.

So we'll make a plan to do that.

Amazing.

Because I feel like it's now it's, like, weird to turn it around and do it, but that's what we had planned, so let's do that.

I don't think it's weird.

We're talking about songwriting, and it's good.

Yeah, let's get into it.

I think it's going to be super fun.

And I do.

I do want you to send me all your, you know, links and socials and stuff.

I will do that after the show.

Because.

Because we do a thing where, you know, like, a couple weeks before the show comes out, we do a lot of promo stuff.

Okay.

Just to help other people.

Yeah.

Just to promote you in general.

So.

So we'll do that.

And I don't know, also, I don't know when this is going to come out because we have a bunch in the can, so I have to kind of, like, get through stuff before it comes out.

Yeah.

Just.

I mean, that's the way it always works, you know, like, they're never.

They're never.

When you know.

Yeah.

You do them.

Yeah.

So.

Okay, so what's.

So what's the best format to do this?

Because I could also pull this up.

I mean, I have your lyrics pulled up and I have the song.

I mean, I think, like, for anybody listening, we should probably, like, maybe listen to it or.

Or, like, pop it in somehow into this.

Because if you haven't heard it, what I'm talking about might not make sense.

Do you know what I mean?

Like, I mean, for the audience, it'll.

It'll help them understand it if there's like, hey, this is the song.

So that might be something.

I mean, we don't have to do that in our time.

But my.

My suggestion would be, like, pop it into the podcast.

Even though.

Do you know what I mean?

Yes.

Just because if anybody's listening, like, it will help them understand, like, what I'm talking about.

Even if it's just a verse and a chorus of the song, like, to hear, like, how it works and the.

The song itself, I will.

I will take you.

One of the beautiful things about having these shows and having people say things out loud is that they end up being out loud.

And then when I listen back to the show and when I do the show notes and things, I know what my homework is.

Yeah.

So my homework will be.

So there's an issue with this song in that there's an issue with the song in that I'm trying to release this as a single immediately.

It's already mixed and mastered, but the artwork is not done, and the artist.

The artist is really busy for the next couple weeks, but that should actually jive.

So we'll release what.

What might actually end up happening is I'll release the song in the next couple weeks, and then I'll promote the song, but I'll also have a separate Promotion that says there's going to be a podcast where we dig into the actual songwriting.

Okay.

And it'd be helpful if everybody listens to the song.

And then when I actually promote the show, I can, you know, have a link to the song.

Yeah.

Just something where somebody could listen to it, you know, if they want to.

Because I. I don't.

I don't know.

I wouldn't.

It wouldn't get as much if I'm listening to something, just someone talk about a song without actually being able to, like, hear it.

So.

Yes.

So I. I'll have.

I'll have, you know, like, maybe a lyric sheet out there or something, and also the song will be released.

Okay.

Okay, I'm ready to dig in.

What should we.

Okay, what do we do first?

My first question is generally, like, when people are putting music out in the world, I'm a little reticent to give feedback on a song that you've already decided is great and going out into the world, but if you're cool with me giving feedback on a song that you're going to put out and might have some things in it that you might want to revisit, then I can take it one of two directions.

Just like, okay, I wasn't sure, you know, because I'm used to getting things that are, like, not finished.

Yeah.

And I know that makes people nervous, but that's the place where I find the most work can get done, even though it can be really scary, as opposed.

Like, I'm used to listening to things that are often voice memo, guitar, vocal, piano, vocal, and you can hear everything, but, like, there's not bells and whistles until they get to, like, upper kinds of things.

So if we're good with that, then I got notes, dude.

Do not.

Do not.

This is it is going to be released.

Okay.

But.

But I.

You know, just for.

For you, but for all songwriters out there.

I don't know if I said this out loud on the podcast or if I said this before when we were chatting earlier, but I consider myself to be a very mediocre, serviceable songwriter.

Maybe this is my.

This is me.

I'm going to be completely, you know, vulnerable on this show.

And just to say that this.

Even though I say that out loud and now everybody knows that I feel that way about my own songwriting.

But let me.

I'm going to backtrack and I'm going to do.

I'm going to be vulnerable and just say, number one, yes, this is my.

This is my authentic artistic expression, and I'm happy to dig into all.

Everything that the song was inspired by and what it means to me.

And.

And this is.

This is really my.

This is really what I want to put out there in the world, number one.

And number two, I do not.

I really.

You are a professional, and you're also a real artist, and I do not want you to hold back at all.

I am 100%, you know, like a big boy, and I can, and I don't care.

I'm not gonna be mean like, that does anybody any good.

Like, I have rules about engaged feedback that, like, we talk about, like, feedback is.

Is part of the learning process of being a songwriter.

And.

But you can't.

It's.

You can't take it if somebody's, like, yelling at you, essentially.

And I don't mean, like, literally yelling, but if they're saying things in a way that's, like, you're unable to hear them, you know, because it's.

They're attached to you.

And, like, the hardest thing about songwriting, I think, is you are not your work.

Right?

Like, that.

That's one of the hardest things for most songwriters to understand is, like, their work is their work, and they are them.

And their worth is not ascribed to how good or bad or complete or incomplete or stage of journey that they're on.

They're still worthy of love and belonging and all of the things.

And we need to be able to separate these two.

But when people are very young, like, I'm working with a lot of 19, 18, you know, at the beginnings of their journeys, these things are still so intertwined that I have, you know, developed ways to, like, start talking about this, start teasing it out in all my classes, because you have to.

You have to talk about you are not your work.

We're going to talk about your work, but that doesn't mean that you're not worth, you know, and you're not doing a great job.

But, like, so, yeah, I think it is really important, like, to get feedback at any stage.

You know, like, there's a song that I put out that, like, I wish I'd never put it out because it's just, like, I look at it and I'm like, oh, that was so, so bad.

Like, me too.

You know, like, we all have that.

I mean, I'm.

I'm really thankful.

Like, my first album that I put out, like, nobody can find number one, it doesn't have my current name on it.

And number two, it was always just analog.

It never got digitized because it was put out in like 2001, before all of the streaming and digital stuff happened.

And so it only lives on a disk in my mom's house, you know, and my students are always like, we want to hear it, we want to hear it.

And this year I finally brought it into one of my classes and I played like half of a track and they were like, cat.

And I was like, I know.

They're like, it's not that bad.

I'm like, it's kind of bad.

I mean, it sounds good because it was recorded in a studio, but, like, the writing is not good, you know, but it's okay.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Well, yeah.

So thank you for all that.

That's great.

I think this is going to be a.

This is a safe space for.

Okay, cool.

So my first question is, can you tell me a little bit about why you wrote the song?

What inspired the song?

Something in that sort of vein.

So I have a little context on, like the backstory of the song.

So the song was written because I've always felt different.

Okay.

And I've always felt like kind of that I didn't fit in, in, you know, society, I guess, in general.

And I've always felt, you know, I've also always felt a little bit like I was kind of like the black sheep of my family.

Okay.

I'm.

I've.

I've just always felt different, a little bit eccentric and.

And so I wanted to write something.

Well, to say that I wanted to write something is actually kind of weird.

It didn't.

I didn't want to write this.

It just sort of like, you know, it just sort of came out okay one day.

And believe it or not, I think I was sort of inspired by the song 1979 by Smashing Pumpkins.

Okay.

Yeah.

And so if I'm not mistaken, that song does have a major seventh chord and it does go like 14 back and forth.

Okay.

I don't recall exactly the chords, but I was basically inspired by that song.

And there was a whole second part of this song that has some references to that.

Okay.

I guess that I cut out.

This is like the single version of the song.

So.

But I don't know, I think.

Well, I guess in a nutshell, that's basically what it is.

That's the inspiration.

Just feeling different.

And the original, the working title of this song has been what has been Minority.

Okay.

For a long time.

But I just felt like being a middle aged white man naming a song Minority just felt like.

And actually, because it's about climbing a wall and I wrote this before the whole Trump thing, I wrote this before the wall was getting built.

The seeds of this song were from way before that.

Okay.

But it just felt so political.

Okay.

And I'm not interesting.

I'm apolitical.

Okay.

And I happen to have a friend whose name means Hope.

Okay.

And so I just.

And then.

So, you know, I just sort of, like, was inspired to change the name, and it felt.

It resonated with me, so I changed the name to Hope.

Okay.

And it.

And I like when things are sort of broader, you know, and have more.

Are more open to interpretation than something so specific as minority.

Okay, cool.

Okay.

So my second question then to you is, what are.

I mean, you're putting it out, but there's always stuff that we sort of have in the back of our heads of, like, oh, I wish.

Oh, I wonder.

I noticed, you know, those kinds of things.

Like, is there anything in this song for you that kind of ticks one of those boxes?

Yeah, there are a few things.

Okay.

That I've been sort of concerned about.

The first thing is that.

And this is kind of the way I am, but my songs tend to be very abstract and sort of not specific, like stories or.

There's not.

There's not a subject, so to speak.

Okay.

I tend to be very abstract and sort of poetic within the way I write songs.

I don't mean there's no value judgment in the poetic part of it.

It's just that, like, it's more about the way the sentences make me feel.

It's not about anything.

So this song is very much like, just like a sort of poem, like a.

It's more of like a word salad than it is like a narrative thing.

So your intention is that you wanted it to be abstract?

Yeah, I think all my songs are like that, in a sense, to me.

And so.

And that.

I sort of like that.

Okay.

And.

But part of me feels like, is that a valid artistic expression?

Oh, yes, It's a thousand percent.

I mean.

And this is why I'm asking this question, because I had a few questions and we'll get into, like, things that I wrote down, too.

But I think it's really good to hear from the person who wrote this song about, like, what they're thinking and what they're going for.

Because I make a comment about something and you were going for something else.

My comment is null and void because your intention was X and my comment was about Y.

Do you know what I mean?

And so Y isn't going to help you because X was the Intention.

Right.

Versus if you didn't know what the intention was.

And I made a comment on why you might be like, oh, that's an interesting thought.

Right.

There's kind of dual things.

Okay.

So abstract is kind of the way you go.

What else?

Yeah, And a few.

I bring that up because I have kind of a songwriting partner friend who is more of the, like, Nashville sort of style, where his songs are very narrative.

Okay.

And did he help you write this, or is this all you?

He helped me change parts of it, but I wrote the song.

But he suggested maybe, you know, he was the one.

Most of the.

Most of the verses were statements, and he suggested I change them to questions.

Okay.

Because he felt that drew the listener in more, and it was less about me and more about other people.

Yeah.

So that was one of his suggestions.

That's not something I necessarily have a problem with.

I thought that was good, so I went with it.

But the other thing is that I did steal the lyrics, Us and them, from Pink Floyd.

I feel like it's so generic that I don't think it's.

It's too generic, that it's.

It doesn't matter.

No.

And it's not.

I didn't hear any.

That didn't come up in.

I mean, it came up as like, oh, I've heard that, but it's not.

You're not using it in the same context.

I don't think you'd be up for, like, issue.

I mean, it's very common.

Great.

And then the last thing is there is no bridge.

And I don't.

I have an issue with bridges, personally, as a singer, songwriter.

Not that I don't like them.

I love them, but I just have a hard time writing them.

This song did sort of have a bridge.

Okay.

I don't think all songs need bridges, but I mean, side note advice.

As a songwriting teacher, if you want to get better at something, start doing it on purpose.

Right.

So if you want to get better at writing bridges, then intentionally write songs with bridges.

Like, give yourself assignment to write first course.

First course bridge chorus songs for, like, two months and write as many as you can and go listen to songs that have that form and see, like, because there are certain things that will happen to set up a bridge to, like, that.

A bridge does that, like, you know, or AABA songs.

That kind of a bridge is a very different function than in the verse, chorus kind of form.

So, like, looking at what bridges do and, like, leaning into them.

But that's, like, side note, not really about your Song.

Okay, cool.

All right.

So my first thought when I listened to this was overall, musically, harmonically, arrangement, production wise, I'm.

I'm pretty sold.

Like, I felt like all of your musical choices.

I do have one thought or an idea, which could go either way, but I felt like they all really propelled the song forward.

When I got to the chorus, the melodies landed where I wanted them to land.

There wasn't anything where my brain was like, oh, I wish they'd done X or Y or Z.

So I felt the flow of the music.

The through line of the musical portion of it was, like, super strong and definitely evolved the song and, like, took it to the places where, like, not in a bad way expected.

But expected it to go, if that makes sense, in a safe, good way.

Which is what?

A song that, like, they do that, right?

They make us feel safe.

And you're not trying to write, you know, something that feels unsafe, right?

At Berkeley, they talk about, like, ironic and sincere prosody.

So ironic being like, it's going against something.

So you have, like, a really sad lyric.

The easiest example is, like, really sad lyric with, like, super upbeat, major poppy kind of a thing.

That would be ironic because it's not doing what you expect versus, like, a sad lyric with minor, slow, sad things.

Like the.

The prosody is sincere.

It's just aligned, essentially.

So could be aligned or in aligned or something, but I don't know.

Just something to consider.

But I felt it worked really well.

So when I did have a musical thing of, like, in the first line, have you been here too long?

And there's a big pause before the word now.

And my question was, because it's the first line of the song, I don't trust you yet.

As, like, a song, as the singer.

Right.

I don't know anything about your story.

And so I wondered if it was like, have you been here too long now?

Or just a slightly shorter pause because it was like, have you been here too long, long now?

And as opposed to.

Yeah, I just wondered if there might be a space after, like, less of a space after long before you saying now to more or less invite the listener into your story.

More than.

Than making me wait for something that I'm not sure I'm ready to wait for, if that makes sense.

So, yeah, so the first line is, have you been here too long now?

Right.

And there was something that.

That stood out to you as being sort of something that was not.

I just wondered if have you been here too long now?

Like, if it was.

There was A pause, but it was less.

It was such a big pause.

And I wasn't quite ready for the pause at the beginning.

The song to.

Yeah, it's almost a full beat, and it's a slow song.

Yeah.

And you're like.

With the first opening line of a song, you're inviting the listener into your story.

And it did keep me listening, but at the same time, I was like, wait, why?

What?

What?

You know, so it was a.

That's like a small.

It's not really a big deal.

Yeah, it's so interesting.

You know, this is.

This process is fascinating, you know?

Okay, I need to see your face.

Like, if we can.

If that's cool.

Oh, wait.

Oh, okay.

I see you.

Okay, I gotcha.

Can you see me somewhere?

I don't know.

So I think I'm recording the screen.

You are.

And I can now see both.

Okay.

So then I wondered.

Okay, you have.

Can you possibly care?

And you say it twice in the verse.

Actually, this is sort of something that sort of felt a little weird.

Repeating anything actually drives me a little crazy.

Well, I didn't hate it, but it felt like a missed opportunity for detail and more information that could relate to the chorus.

Like.

Yeah.

And I.

It just felt like I didn't need it repeated.

It might be a stronger thing to consider how it might color the chorus, how it might give more information about what's going on, and then the us and then people of action will be together.

I Actually, this is the only place where, harmonically.

I wondered if you considered this a pre chorus instead of the end of the verse.

Because it happens in the second part to you.

Exactly the same.

Yes.

And the melody feels like a pre chorus.

It feels like an on ramp to your chorus.

Like, you're getting us there really strongly.

And I think if you change that first chord on us to something else.

I didn't analyze, you know, that like, it would kind of help the takeoff of that section, essentially.

And I just was.

It was a question of, like, I wonder what would happen if you considered this.

Us and them, people of action will be together as a pre chorus.

And if you thought about it like that, and the function of a pre chorus is to connect the verse to the chorus melodically, lyrically, or whatever.

Yeah.

And to be an on ramp.

Right.

So to anybody listening, like, I think of like a pre chorus as, like, you're on the country road and you're driving, and that's like your verse.

Right.

And, like, you can see the highway that's up ahead.

That's Your chorus.

But to get onto the highway, you have to go on the on ramp.

And as you're going on the on ramp, you know, that's your pre chorus.

You have to start speeding up or you have to, like, do certain things to get you onto the highway from the little country road.

Right.

So that's your function of a pre chorus.

And it just felt like an opportunity to maybe explore that.

Not necessarily.

Again, like, I kind of look at feedback like jeans.

Like, you go into a store and you want to buy a new pair of jeans.

Like, you try them on, but you might come out with the same ones that you walked in on because you're like, you're the songwriter.

You get to keep your jeans, you know, but at the same time, trying things on and seeing if maybe it would, like, be a stronger thing to go into the chorus.

Okay, so that is really interesting because I think that one of the things that bothered me, and this is not.

This is something that I sort of, like, fought against personally in that I am like you.

I'm.

I'm a jazz person.

Yeah.

And so I do.

Part of me is, like, sort of programmed to think of that more chords are better and fancier chords are better or something.

And it's something that I sort of forced myself to write a song that was literally just two chords.

Chords the whole time.

And that's what this song basically is.

The only difference is that the verse is G major 7, and then the.

The chorus is that it's just a regular G with no, you know, no extensions.

And the only weird chord is the G minor 6.

That basically is sort of like a break.

And I didn't hate that.

But it might be an opportunity to just stick a B minor chord or something in there or an E minor chord where you're.

You're using the relative of the G or something.

If that's what you're landing on.

Like, what chord do you land on us, you mean?

On us is a D major?

So we could use a B minor.

Yeah.

Or an F sharp minor.

Yeah.

Just the F sharp minor might be too close to the G major.

So the B maybe.

But it also might be just.

Just enough where we're not hearing a massive difference in things.

We're just hearing this slight and just once.

And then it goes back.

You know, it's just like this way to kind of like say, hey, we're in a new section of the song here.

Potentially.

Again, like, it didn't.

It didn't scream, I will try that.

But it was something to try.

As soon as you said the us and them was different before you said just the one chord, I sort of pictured maybe there would be some sort of like walk up where it went.

Well, I guess it wouldn't work from the B. I guess it could.

I don't know.

But like B and then I guess it could be a B and then an A over C sharp and then a D and then the F sharp.

I mean, they're.

I don't think that.

I mean, I think, like, the idea of like.

So this is something too.

It's just like you got into this song and you wrote this song because you gave yourself a fun prompt of, I'm going to write a really simple two chord song, or essentially two chords.

And because I tend to do all this other stuff.

And that got you here.

But then you have to think about, are those two things actually serving the song that I wrote?

And that is the piece that I think a lot of people struggle with because they're like, but I did this and this is the thing that I wanted to do.

And I'm like, okay, then you either need to make that thing be the thing and everything else has to work, or you've written this really cool piece of music, but it needs different support structures underneath it to really, like, make it land in the way that you want the meaning of the song to land.

And it has to serve the song.

It can't serve that initial idea anymore.

It has to serve the song that came out of that idea.

And maybe you decide, like, you know what, this does serve it, like, and that's valid.

It's just a matter of what do you want from that?

You know, And I.

But I think it's worth exploring to see, like, oh, I didn't think about that.

That could be cool, right?

And maybe it doesn't work.

Sometimes it doesn't work.

Okay, so then, I mean, it helps that you wanted it to.

You tended to be a little abstract.

But I don't fully get abstraction from these lyrics or from what you're trying to say.

And I think if you're gonna go abstract, you gotta go all the way in the bucket.

Like, you gotta go David Bowie, Radiohead, like, in the bucket of, like, abstraction.

If you're gonna go abstraction.

Otherwise, a half and half is confusing often.

Right?

And this is where I got confused is because the cliche climbing the walls means you're stuck.

It means that, like, I'm frustrated, I'm sitting here, I feel like I can't do anything.

I feel that I can't go anywhere.

I'm climbing the walls.

I'm just like, you know, like.

But your pre chorus is, we're people of action, and we're gonna be together as we sit in a room and don't do anything.

Like, this is where I got confused as to the message of the song, because it feels like you're trying to go somewhere, trying to do something, trying to call people to action.

And when you just said in our conversation before that you wanted.

You were talking about the walls people were climbing to, like, get over something that seems maybe what you're talking about, but I don't have context to understand that.

And so the cliche wins, which is, I'm climbing the walls, which is.

But, you know, if you put a but in there, maybe us and then people that actually.

But we'll be together.

But tonight we're stuck.

Tonight we're frustrated.

Tonight we're not sure where to go, which leaves the possibility for other things to maybe come.

And I love.

And this is where I was like, well, but I love the way you sing this.

I love the melody on it.

I love, like, the way it sounds.

It's a super awesome hook.

Like, man, you wrote a killer hook and a payoff line that's, like, badass.

But then I'm stuck because I'm not sure what it means.

Yeah.

So that's okay.

So if you don't mind, I think this is where we can sort of dig into it.

So the first verse, Right.

Have you been here too long now?

You do not conform.

Right.

That's sort of relatively explicit.

Can you possibly care?

I've thought of changing it.

Can you possibly dare?

Oh, that would be cool.

And then if you take my advice and change that last line to not a repeat and give me more information, that's what I mean is like, there's an opportunity there to share more insight about what you're feeling.

Okay, well, I'm not gonna come up with it on this call.

No, no, no.

That's not what I would expect, so.

And I guess.

Yeah.

Cause I agree with you in that the hook.

I like the hook so much.

Me too.

That I feel like, how do I make it work?

Get rid of that?

Right?

You know, and I felt like.

Well, I guess what I felt like, if you don't mind, actually.

So if you don't mind, let me just.

I'm sort of a little bit afraid that when I. I've had this problem with zoom where it drives me crazy, where I think I'm recording the screen.

But then it doesn't record us our faces.

And then.

Or it goes to a different thing where it just records you talking and it doesn't show me my response.

And then it's like.

It's something that's frustrating.

I don't think it's doing it now.

Okay, but.

And then the settings reset, and then it.

So it drives me crazy.

So I'm just worried that when people are seeing the.

Lyrics look gorgeous, I just futz with my hair a lot.

It's okay.

That's okay.

Because you know what I've been.

I was doing.

A friend of mine came over and I was brushing my hair, and she was like, you need to stop doing that.

You're self soothing.

What you're doing is.

It makes me.

It's like a nervous tic.

It's totally a thing.

Okay, so.

So.

So that's why I keep switching from some.

That's why I'm gonna switch from the screen share to actually seeing us.

So.

Oh, wait.

Another thought would be like, you have.

Like, if you did.

Can you possibly dare something else, Us and them.

And then you change the line People of action to something else.

Right?

More connotes that we're climbing the walls.

That you're feeling stuck, but you want to go somewhere.

Like, we want to be people of action or like something that's like, more driving towards your.

Your hook, which is.

It's a killer hook.

And I was like, I want to make it work.

So I feel like the places to do that are that.

That repeated line where you have an opportunity for more information.

And maybe you're not people of action.

Us and them.

Not people of action.

But we'll be together tonight.

We're climbing the walls.

We're frustrated.

We're like, trying to figure out, like.

Like how to get out of here, right?

Like, yeah, potentially.

So I thought that we're climbing the walls means we're finally getting out of here.

And so climbing the walls is sort of the cliche of climbing the walls is that we're so.

That we're frustrated and we're not actually going somewhere.

We're just.

We're like sort of climbing the walls, you know, but there's still a roof.

So, you know, I don't know what it means exactly.

Like, I looked it up because I was like, am I remembering this wrong?

Like, I looked up.

Climbing the walls is like a cliche and like, it.

Yeah.

What did it say?

People.

Yeah, people climb.

They're stuck and not moving.

They're frustrated.

They're not Moving, like, that was kind of the.

The definition of it.

And I was like, okay.

So I'm just wondering, like, how could.

Because that feels like such a climatic, important, like, essential part of the song.

Whereas it feels like, can you possibly care?

People of action.

Those are things that could potentially change to highlight the thing that's super strong in the chorus.

Right?

Okay.

So, yeah, this is the weird thing about when you put all this stuff on paper and you start to feel a little weird about it, because.

So the.

I guess that what I was thinking, and if you don't mind, I think maybe it'd be helpful if we just think through it.

Yeah, yeah, but I was.

Or allow me to talk through it a little bit.

But what I was thinking was that the way I've always felt is that there is an us in them, and I'm part of the us.

And the us is the people who feel different.

And the them is that everyone else is part of this group that, you know, like, does sort of feel normal or something.

This is a ridiculous thought because no one.

Everyone feel.

That's kind of the point of the song is that everyone feels different.

Right.

So that's kind of felt like, oh, this is universal.

Don't we all feel different?

We totally do.

Right.

So then I thought.

Then I thought, like, the idea is that people who are like us, who feel different, actually are not the people who do things, but in actuality, we are.

We're all.

We are the people who do things because we are different.

And everyone else who is sort of part of the masses who doesn't do anything, they're the ones who don't do anything.

We're the people who are different.

We are the people of action, and we can be together and do something, and then we're going to climb the walls and get the F out of here.

That's.

That was sort of like what I was thinking.

No, I got that.

Except that the wheel applies to both us and them.

It puts the two of you together.

There's no.

There's no knowledge that I have in your lyric to understand what you just said.

Like.

And that's the thing is, like, the song has to stand on its own.

It can't.

It can't speak to all the stories.

Right?

Like, if you need a soliloquy to tell people what the song is about, the song's not doing the job it needs to do.

So when I hear us and them, people of action, I'm already thinking that you and they are both people of action.

And then you say, we'll be together.

And my thought is, okay, so now you're going to be together, and now you're stuck in a room, climbing the walls to going nowhere together.

But that's not what you're trying to say.

So, like, I think that's the question to answer is, like, how do you get what you're trying to say across us and them feeling.

I.

We feel different.

Something, something, something.

Like, I don't.

I don't know what that is.

But, like, those two lines at the end of that little.

At the end of your first verse imply that you and they are both together within this thing, doing a thing.

But then you're not doing anything together, which is where I got confused again.

Like, if you're going for abstraction, like, you're winning because I'm confused.

And I don't.

But it doesn't.

But in talking to you, you have a very solid connection, clear idea of what you want this song to be about.

And I'm not sure it's hitting that lyrically, musically, yes.

But I'm not sure it's telling the story that you're wanting to tell.

Okay, so.

And just so.

Just so I can be clear on, you know, and so we can be as, like, I guess maybe as targeted as possible.

Yeah, it's.

There is the issue.

I'm going to bring this up again.

So part of it is the issue of.

Part of it is the issue of this.

Can.

Can you possibly care.

Can you possibly dare that?

Which.

Like, if you said, can you possibly dare to be who you are?

Mm.

Right now.

Doesn't rhyme.

But let's just take that out of the equation.

Doesn't need to right now.

Right.

Like, can you possibly.

Can you possibly dare to be who you are?

Us and them?

Something, something, something, something, something, something.

My instinct is that I want to keep the chorus because it's such a strong thing that.

That is not the thing that I'm sort of thinking needs to change.

Right.

So if I decide that that has to stay, how do I work the other stuff around?

And I love us and them.

I think your first three lines of your verse are awesome.

The fourth line, I think is an opportunity for a shift.

And the last two lines there.

People of action will be together.

Also an opportunity to dig into what you're trying to say and be vulnerable.

Okay.

Actually, I did have another line there.

It was always people of action.

There was another line there.

I wonder if it was better.

Well, but even if you said us and them, people of action don't Something.

Something.

Something like people of action.

Like, if we.

If there was an.

A way to understand that the us.

The you part, are the people of action, and they are not the people of action.

Right.

Okay.

But you're putting us together in that last line, and that's not what you're saying you're trying to do.

Right.

Okay, so that's.

Okay.

You know what?

So that's what I kind of wanted to hear again, was that was like, what is off about it?

And it's specifically that.

The last part, the us and them, we're putting them together.

I'm putting them together.

Yeah.

And then you're saying that they're doing action together, but your chorus is negating that because of the cliche, meaning that is gonna override.

Unless you had more lines in your.

Tonight we're climbing the walls, you know, we're gonna escape this jail.

Like, then you're telling me what climbing the walls means.

Your chorus is only those two lines.

So I have no other context to understand the meaning other than the cliche that exists.

And it's always gonna win.

Like, unfortunately.

Yeah, no, I. Yeah.

So the.

The thing about that is that for me, I don't know.

I think even the cliche, because you had to look it up.

I had to make sure that I was correct, because I wasn't.

Well, because of the rest of your lyric, I was like, but he's talking about, like, getting out and getting free.

But I think that cliche means the opposite of that.

Like, I just wanted to be sure that I was like.

Because I'm evaluating somebody's song, and we're sitting here professionally.

Like, I wanted to make sure that I was right, Like.

But I.

You know, I talked to my husband, and he was like.

I was like, what do you think this means?

And he's like, oh, that means, like, getting out of.

Like, you're stuck.

And I was like, okay.

So.

Well, yeah, but.

So does it mean.

So climbing the walls is like.

I think about when you have, like, a young child, and it's like, oh, they're so pent up.

They're climbing the walls right now.

Yeah, but it's.

But is the implication that they do get out, or is it that it's just, like, a perpetual frustration?

I think it's a perpetual frustration.

I mean, because they can't get out.

That's what I wanted to.

Yeah.

Doesn't get out unless you let them.

Right, okay.

That's right.

That's right.

I mean.

Okay.

Other possibilities are, like, you give it to us, like, maybe a few shifts in your first verse, you give it to us like it is, and we don't quite understand it.

In the first chorus.

Yeah.

Right.

But then in your second verse.

Yeah.

Can we move on?

Because I think.

Yeah, yeah.

Just in the interest of time, too.

Because I want to be respectful of your time.

I'm good.

So.

Because then I. I got more confused in your second verse.

Okay.

Because you were talking about, have you been here too long?

You don't conform, can you possibly care?

And then.

Do you live in your head?

Are you tied to that bed?

Are all your dreams a bore?

Can you walk through that door?

But you're climbing the walls?

Like.

Like, I.

It just seemed like this person was feeling potentially that they were going to get out of something, like.

But then they're, like, depressed.

I got confused.

It seemed like another opportunity of, like, why are you climbing the walls?

Like, if that's what that means.

If it means that you're feeling stuck, why are you feeling stuck?

I'm feeling stuck because I'm having this construction going.

It's like an incessant construction.

Okay.

So something like, there's loud noises in my room.

Right, right, right.

So I do.

So I guess I.

Well, let's do the same exercise as the first verse.

Yeah.

Where I kind of felt like that, you know.

Do you live in your head?

I always did feel like I lived in my own head.

Very much so.

Tied to the bed.

Dreams.

All aboard.

I guess I didn't.

I was just trying to get the idea of frustration across, you know?

Right.

And I got that.

And that goes with climbing the walls, but it doesn't go with people of action.

Like, this is where it gets.

Okay, so what if I.

So there might be an opportunity to change the people of action part.

In the second part.

Potentially.

Right.

I mean, pre chorus or just in general.

Right.

Yeah.

Yeah.

But that's the other cool.

If you thought about.

I mean, whether it's a verse two or pre chorus, like, you can always change the lyrics.

You know, the melody stays the same.

Another thought would be like, you're living in your head.

Like, instead of these choices, questions that you started the song with, which I think are good.

Maybe in the second verse, you're not asking questions, but you're.

You're stating, like, tonight we're climbing the walls.

We're climbing the walls.

You're living in your head.

And I don't know if that would help.

Like, you're tied to your bed, your dreams are all a bore.

I want you to walk through that door, us and them, you know, I don't know.

Because then it goes into the chorus.

And tonight you're climbing the walls and now we're going to answer the call and we're tempting fate.

And then I got super confused at the very end because I don't understand.

Because there hasn't been anything about death.

It's always just been about, like, feeling stuck or getting out.

I wasn't sure.

It's sort of not sure.

Right.

And then all of a sudden, you're looking forward to dying.

That didn't say.

Seem like that was the impetus of the whole song.

It felt not quite as serious.

Not that, like, feeling stuck isn't serious, but I didn't get out of the lyric that that's where you were.

Yeah.

So I'll.

I've just.

You know, for anybody who's watching this, I might as well just.

I might as well just go and tell the whole kind of, like, abbreviated version of the story in that.

There is.

There was originally another.

There was kind of a bridge song.

And it did have a.

More imagery about.

I do not know why.

I mean, I think it was sort of like a.

More of a poetic sort of thing where when I pictured being tied to a bed and it was sort of like I was.

I guess I was just feeling sort of like in my gut, more of a.

More of a desperation sort of feeling.

Yeah.

That's the climbing the walls part that I love.

And so there was a bridge that was about.

There was sort of a little bit of a bridge section with different chords that went.

You know, it was about.

I had this image in my mind of, you know, like, the.

The old version of like.

Like a crazy person tied in a straight jacket tied to a bed.

And, you know, it's like.

I don't even know, like, the Metallica video of one or something.

I was sort of having that, you know, that sort of thing in my mind.

And I was writing these lyrics about disease and.

Yeah, it was.

And it was more.

It was way dark.

It was something like, the thought of disease makes death come with ease.

Yeah.

And I just don't.

I mean, I think.

Yeah, I think it's valid, but I'm not sure it belongs in this song.

Like, I think it's a cool line, but maybe it doesn't belong here anymore.

Right.

Because you took it out.

And I mean, my fix for your last chorus was potentially like, tonight we're done climbing the wall Tonight we'll answer the call Tonight we're tempting the Fates.

Right.

So, like, you're putting being stuck behind you, and then it could just be, you know, even though we're scared, we're gonna climb the walls or, you know, and then you flip it.

Right.

Like, you could make that shift.

Yeah.

If you give us some context.

Yeah.

And that's, like, the cool thing about, like, recoloring choruses or developing the lyric story or whatever.

Like, I think you do have a story here, and you know what it is, but I'm not sure the song is telling your story in the clearest way that it could with the strongest, like, through line when.

When I'm talking to you, you know exactly what you want to say.

I'm just not sure that the lyrics of the song are saying it in a way that I'm gonna listen to the song without your, you know, backstory and understand it.

I'll get something out of it.

Like, I. I got something out of it.

It made me feel something.

But in asking me to look at deep, look at it deeper, I'm like, okay, well, if I'm sort of half paying attention, all I'm really paying attention to is, like, the frustrated feeling that the chorus gives off, which it does.

But then when.

If I dig deeper, it's not.

The lyrics aren't doing as strong.

I think the work that they could be doing, potentially.

You have a really cool story and a really powerful thing to say to somebody.

Thank you.

I think so.

I have a very.

When it comes to, like, songwriting, I think I have a very functional sort of attitude about, like, getting.

Solving these problems and then getting it done.

Yeah.

So correct me if I'm wrong.

Yeah, but.

So this is.

I'm gonna just, you know, like, consolidate your advice, and I can send you.

My word document now that we've talked, but, like, I have all of this, like, in a word document with comments on the side.

Are you serious?

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Like, everything we're talking about, like, I have comments on the side, but I didn't want to.

Just when we spoke and I didn't meet you, I was like, if you read these and we haven't had a conversation, this is a recipe for disaster versus, like, the conversation that we're having.

And now I can send them to you and, like, you'll understand what I'm talking about.

Where, like, I mean, the comments aren't mean.

They're just, like, questions that I just.

Everything I just talked about, but I didn't want to.

Like, I don't know.

Like, that's just a hard ask.

Like, If.

Because we haven't met before, you know, like, you wouldn't probably take them as well, because I can't explain what I meant.

I can't ask questions about what you're doing.

So.

Yeah, no, I actually love what we did today because if there's one thing that I kind of feel like I've.

That I've turned.

I've made my life about not being afraid and also being.

I just like to put shit out there, basically.

So I don't mind.

I don't mind the criticism.

And actually, I sit.

Like I told you, I have a sort of a writing partner.

Yeah.

And he's told me he's been more brutal, spicy.

He's been more spicy than you have been.

So.

But I do think.

But you're also, you know, more pedigree.

You're more credentialed.

Well, I don't know if that has to do.

It's just, I think the number of songs that I listen to a week and also the age group that I'm working with and understanding people's emotions and.

And being.

I'm an empath.

So being aware of those kinds of things and making sure to speak about things in a way that people can kind of take it or leave it, you know?

And I think it's always good to know that, like, someone's giving you permission not.

Not to do any changes.

Right.

Because it's your work, it's your art.

Like, you get to choose how you want to put this out in the world and, like, how you know, whether you.

Like, I've gotten advice before, and I'm like, yeah, that's not what I want to say.

I'm going to say it the way I said it, and it's okay that it doesn't make sen. Know or, you know, I've had someone say, like, well, this is mixed perspective.

And I'm like, yeah, I know, but this is what I want to say and the way I want to say it, and it's okay.

Like, I understand, you know, So I think there's, like, such validity, and I don't feel that, like, I mean, if you don't go to one of these schools, like Berkeley, the University of Miami, Clive Davis, usc, Belmont, like, those are the only five places kind of offering, like, really serious songwriting critique and information about this.

And there are other schools that have, like, some songwriting classes, but they're not always as deep as some of this stuff.

Then you don't have any access to someone who can, like, dig deep and give answers.

Right.

I've listened to, like, stuff like podcasts or not podcasts, but, like, song critiques that are put out by, like, different places.

And, like, they're never spicy.

They're always like, oh, yay.

Go you.

Put out music.

Go you.

Oh, I love the melodies.

Like, everything is happy.

Go Lucky.

And I'm like, that song had issues.

Like, the pre chorus didn't work.

Like, this wasn't working.

Blah, blah.

And nobody's talking about that stuff, you know?

And I think people are scared, you know, to say those kinds of things.

But it's like, are you trying to get better at this, or do you want to, like, just have smoke up your butt?

You know?

And it's like, it.

I don't know, you got a cool song here, like, the way that it is, but it also has potential to be something else.

Like, I don't think it's better or worse.

It's just like, these are things that you could take a look at to see if they are things that you want to change in your art or your work, to have it say something a little bit different than what it's saying right now.

Does that make sense?

It totally makes sense.

And I actually think that what we've done today is so valuable.

And I think that.

I'll tell you, my perspective on it, too, is that I think as an artist, everybody has to sort of come to their own thing.

And part of me feels like, you know, I'll tell you that I was inspired to write music by Eddie Vedder.

Nice.

And mostly because, not that I'm a huge Pearl Jam fan, but just because I listened to his lyrics and they made no sense.

A lot of times I thought, if this guy can do it, then why can't I?

You know?

Yeah.

Yeah.

And I wrote my first song, and it was literally just like this kind of almost practically nonsensical poem that was just sort of like flashes of feelings and words and things.

And it really had no.

You know, it just didn't make sense.

And it's still a song.

And it's on my.

It's on my first album, the first album of my own.

And so, you know, and I actually still like the song for what it is.

Yeah.

Part of me likes the fact.

And this is for all songwriters, I guess.

Like, I'll put myself out there and just say that.

Part of me also likes to have songs that maybe don't make a lot of sense, like, sometimes and are open to interpretation.

But also part of me wants to become a really great songwriter because you know, I've.

There are some songs that I think are so just, like, amazing and beautiful.

And I.

Sometimes I think, oh, if I ever wrote a song like that, I could just die happy if I could write a song that good.

Yeah, I get that.

And I think, like, with this song, like, I. I think there's a lot of beauty and abstraction, and that was.

That's the other overall piece of this is, like, if you want it to be absolutely abstract, then I think you got to lean harder into that.

Right.

For this particular song, then it.

None of it has to sort of make sense.

Like, right now, it sort of makes sense in two different ways, and they're kind of fighting with each other.

And so that's a choice.

It's like, do you want it to be aligned or do you want it to be super abstract?

In which case, then you got to lean in more metaphors.

You got to lean into more.

Like, you know, that's the thing.

Like, can you possibly care?

Are there trees over there?

Like, you know what?

You know what I mean?

Like, where.

It's like, wait a minute.

What?

Like, where did.

Like, where.

It's so out there that, like, we're just getting feelings from it.

We're not.

We're just getting emotions from, like.

And the lyrics are essentially just a vehicle for the melodies, right?

And that is also, like, a really valid, awesome choice to make.

So that's a question I think you have to ask yourself as the songwriter of, like.

I feel like the hardest place is to live where this song is living, which is kind of in between the two, where it, like, kind of makes sense but not quite.

And the two things that it makes sense with are sort of fighting versus all abstract, where it's like, none of it makes sense, but just feels so good.

And that chorus is so amazing.

And, like, I'm just riding the emotional wave of this thing, or everything leads towards, like, I'm feeling stuck, but I'm gonna figure out a way out of it, right?

And so then the song, like, can live in one of these spaces and kind of really, like, belong there, right?

Like, you're trying to belong.

So where.

Where are you feeling like this song wants to belong?

Is sort of the question to ask yourself.

And there's not a wrong or right way, even just as it is.

It's cool.

But, like, that's the thing that I would explore is, like, where could this go?

Yeah.

So I think that's great because there are.

Definitely.

So I think just for myself, and I think for any songwriter I think what is good about all this is that we did record it.

You can go back and listen and be like, what did she say?

Yeah.

Because I do think that, you know, it's.

I think it is a bit of a process to get to where you're going.

And so I do think that.

I think that, you know, that's what I'm gonna do is that a lot of this feedback you gave me is great.

And so there are things that have bothered me about the song over the years and it's.

It's gone through a couple of rewrites, but not.

Nothing drastic, you know, like a couple of lines here and there, a couple sec.

Cut a section out.

I made it into, you know, more condensed, simpler thing.

There were a lot more chord changes.

And then.

And then what you also highlighted is that there is inherently sort of like this duality in the song that I think, you know, I do want this to be.

I want all my songs to be as good as they can possibly be.

So the one thing that bothers me most out of everything we discussed is the last line, actually.

The deaths.

The death line.

Yeah.

Maybe it is too much, but I have to sort of simmer on.

I think any songwriter, yeah.

You know, needs to, you know, know that it's okay to just sort of like sit on things.

And.

And I, like we said in the up top, I am releasing this song as is, you know, Exactly.

And it's great just the way it is.

I'm just saying, like, you.

You were like, well, if I did do this again, like, what are possibilities?

And I'm like.

And that was the other reason why it's hard to want to dig into something that you're going to release because you've decided to do it versus, like something that's more work tapey and not in a finished format where we're also not hanging on to as much of it as we might.

That doesn't bother me.

I don't mind, you know.

Well, you're different.

You're very.

You're a very unique, amazing human.

Thank you.

I don't mind releasing music when students.

Of mine are like, hey, Cat, I put this song out.

Can you let me know what you think?

And I'm like, it's amazing.

Congratulations.

And that is all that they will ever get from me.

Because I'm like, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no.

If you wanted my help on the song, like, you should have come to me.

Should have come to me seven months ago before, you know, like, you Decided that five different perspectives was good.

I.

We're going to do.

We're going to do all of my songs, even the ones, especially the ones I've already released.

Okay.

And.

And the harsher the criticism, more fun for the.

More fun for the listener, you know, also.

Yeah, but, I mean, I don't feel.

I don't.

I feel I was, you know, succinct and clear, but not like, no, you were awesome.

You were awesome.

And just, you know, so people know.

I really don't think there are.

Like I said, up top.

I'm a very.

I'm a functional songwriter, in my opinion.

I can get a song written.

I'm not.

I don't consider myself a great songwriter.

There are.

There are so many songwriters that are better than me.

There's lots and lots and lots of them.

But I also know there are people who would die to write a song like this, you know, I don't.

So.

So the short answer is, I don't give a shit.

Like, I don't.

You know, it's like, I know.

You know, I know where I'm at, and if I can improve, I'll improve.

And I.

And that's the thing about this show is that it's really about putting it out there.

So, you know, it's.

It's okay for me to put it out there because that's just my, you know, my journey, you know, I don't care.

Like, you know, it's.

I've written some decent songs and I've written some real shitty songs, and I'm happy to put them all out there.

Hey, we're all stuck somewhere.

Like, I mean, I have a song I've been working on for, like, two years, and I can't.

I can't get.

Can't get the verses to.

To land right.

So, I mean, two years, that's nothing for me.

That's a long time to be working.

On the blink of an eye, dude.

That's a blink of an eye.

Okay, so let's finish up.

I think this was amazing.

Well, it was really fun.

So thanks for being so open and vulnerable and makes my job easy.

No, thank you for coming on the show because I cannot tell you how often I feel like I'm really punching up a lot in this show to have someone who is as professional and credentialed as you are to come and slum it on my show.

Are you kidding?

I don't consider that at all.

Like, not at all.

Credentials are not.

It's just.

It was, you know, getting your PhD was.

I got divorced, literally, and was like, 36, no kids.

What am I gonna do?

I'll be.

That was.

That was why I'm totally serious.

That's why I did it.

I was like, what else am I gonna do with my life right now?

Like, I have nothing.

And it, you know, it has paid off.

But it's like, no, but you're.

People don't call me that.

So, you know, it's just like, yeah, I have that.

I did that.

It was part of my journey.

But.

Yeah, yeah, but, but.

But you also are an actual songwriter, songwriting instructor.

Right.

Professor of songwriting at probably the.

One of the, if not the most prestigious music.

The most well known.

I don't know, maybe whatever it is.

And you also have how many?

Five records.

And, you know, like a bunch of singles, too.

So you're the real deal.

So I appreciate you being willing to come and do this with me, and I'm going to definitely have you come on again, but.

Okay.

That was fun.

It was really cool.

And thank you for having me and for being really open, and it's really cool.

I can send you all my notes.

I'm going to take all your notes.

We're going to put it out there.

We're going to share them with anyone who wants to.

I'll make it a lead magnet.

If you want to see Kat's notes on my song, I'll collect an email for it or something.

I don't know.

Good thing it says anonymous on all my notes.

Really?

Yeah.

Yeah.

Because when I often review journal articles for different publications and things like.

And so they don't want any tags of, like, who.

Who did this.

So my settings are just like they would.

They don't want to know who, like, gave feedback on the, like, before they go to print.

So.

Okay.

Yeah.

Okay.

So, so.

And the last thing is where I am going to put links to all your stuff.

Okay.

I will send you an email with this and that.

Yeah, yeah.

I'm going to put all the links to your stuff and.

And I'm going to start promoting you.

Okay.

Just so that, you know, send me an email with anything that you have or tag me.

Make me a collaborator, whatever, on Instagram or.

Great.

Wherever I'm on.

I'm only on Instagram, Facebook and YouTube.

I'm not a TikTok person, so I'm not either.

But I do Twitter as well.

Okay.

Yeah, I don't.

I'm not on that either.

Okay.

No problem.

Okay.

So thanks again.

You're so welcome.

Really wonderful.

And I look forward to the next time we do this.

And also to have you officially on the show as an interview guest because.

Amazing.

We want to hear your.

We want to hear your story.

Sweet.

Cool.

All right, well, thanks.

Have a great rest of your Sunday.

Thanks.

You, too.

Okay, talk to you later.

Bye.