00:00:05 - 00:00:06 Caroline

Bonjour Emilie.

00:00:07 - 00:00:07 Allison

Bonjour Caroline.

00:00:08 - 00:00:09 Caroline

Bonjour Allison.

00:00:09 - 00:00:09 Allison

Bonjour.

00:00:10 - 00:00:11 Caroline

Welcome to the Real Fish Wives of Paris.

00:00:12 - 00:00:13 Allison

Merci. Thank you very much.

00:00:14 - 00:00:19 Caroline

So, Allison, you're going to be burning down some myths for us today, but before we get to that, can you please tell us a little bit about yourself?

00:00:20 - 00:00:35 Allison

Yes, I'd be happy to. So, I trained as a professional chef here in France and worked as a professional chef and culinary instructor in a centre de formation d'apprentis for young French boys—knives, flames, hijinks in the kitchen.

00:00:36 - 00:00:54 Allison

And then I converted to becoming a gastronomy guide, a gastronomy consultant, so that's what I do nowadays. I take care of a lot of, let's see, study-abroad students who are coming from the United States to learn about French gastronomy, give tours to just regular people like us.

00:00:54 - 00:00:55 Caroline

And how long have you been here?

00:00:55 - 00:00:57 Allison

I moved here in 1995.

00:00:57 - 00:00:58 Caroline

Oh, wow, okay.

00:00:58 - 00:01:01 Allison

So, yeah, I've been here for almost 30 years.

00:01:01 - 00:01:02 Caroline

You're an OG.

00:01:02 - 00:01:04 Allison

In the blink of an eye. It happened. It was crazy.

00:01:04 - 00:01:05 Caroline

It's crazy how fast that goes.

00:01:05 - 00:01:10 Allison

Yeah, it really, really has gone very quickly, so. But I love France and I love Paris.

00:01:11 - 00:01:22 Caroline

And so we're really excited to have you on the podcast today because, as the Fish Wives, we love to debunk the myths and legends around French food. You are an absolute expert on the history of restaurants.

00:01:23 - 00:01:47 Caroline

And there is a legend that's floating around that the Parisians love to tell, that not only did Parisians invent the restaurant, but they did it as a direct repercussion of the French Revolution. That basically, according to this myth, they were chopping off heads left, right, and center, and all the chefs of all the nobles who were losing their heads had no jobs, and so they decided to open restaurants.

00:01:48 - 00:01:50 Caroline

Allison, is it true?

00:01:51 - 00:01:52 Allison

Partially true.

00:01:52 - 00:01:52 Caroline

Okay.

00:01:52 - 00:02:04 Allison

But not entirely. Of course, there's a lot more behind it. So actually, what we consider, or what historians, French historians, consider to be the very first restaurant dates from 1765.

00:02:04 - 00:02:24 Caroline

Can I just stop you there? Because I feel like we average normal people that don't know anything about food or wine, or people that do know about food or wine, but just, it's so normal to have restaurants. Restaurants feel like something that have always existed. And of course, in some form they have, but more like an inn, right?

00:02:25 - 00:02:26 Allison

Absolutely.

00:02:26 - 00:02:30 Caroline

So, you know, you would go to an inn and get served a hot meal, but you're paying for your lodging, really.

00:02:30 - 00:02:30 Allison

Yeah.

00:02:32 - 00:03:03 Allison

Really, what we had before the first, what we would consider to be the first restaurants were table d'hôte, sort of like inns. You might be spending the night, you might not have been. And they were really rough-and-tumble kind of places. You know, from medieval times, people could always get a bite to eat. I mean, it was mostly people traveling for, you know, professional reasons, or even pilgrimages, for example. People have always traveled and had to have food, sustenance, somewhere on the road.

00:03:03 - 00:03:27 Allison

And so these inns, or table d'hôte, they were more like taverns. Basically, people would be seated at this very sort of like a long table, kind of like this one, and on long wooden benches. It wasn't very comfortable. You would eat when the owner was serving food. He would say when you were going to eat. Usually, there were men, only men. You know, it was a pretty rough environment.

00:03:27 - 00:03:42 Allison

Because these guys were, you know, they had their daggers at the table, you know, I mean, that's what they were using, basically, to, like, stab the big, huge hunk of meat in the middle. I mean, I kind of like to envision them as sort of all, like, descending on a piece of meat on a big, you know, sort of wooden cutting board in the middle.

00:03:43 - 00:04:03 Allison

You know, in medieval times, there weren't even plates. I mean, it was just like, you'd have a tranchois, which is maybe like a big piece of bread that was your plate to sort of sop up the juices. I don't think people were eating very many vegetables. What they were doing at the table is basically belching, passing gas. You know, I mean, it was really, like, not a very savory environment.

00:04:03 - 00:04:04 Caroline

I would have said, right?

00:04:06 - 00:04:41 Allison

Anyway, so, yeah, I mean, those have always existed. And then when you get up into, you know, the 1700s, late 1700s, let's say about 1765, because that's really the date of what French historians consider to be the first restaurant. And it was in Paris. It was in a tiny little street called Rue des Poulies, which is the actual, like, the current-day Rue du Louvre, kind of right next to where the Louvre is. Because the Rue du Louvre, of course, didn't come along until, you know, under, like, Haussmann and Napoleon III. And so it was just a tiny little street.

00:04:42 - 00:05:05 Allison

And this guy named Boulanger, one of his names, decided he was going to open up a different kind of establishment. Something that was a little bit more, what I like to call for the fainting aristocrats. You know, the sort of people who would be interested in having something healthier, a more civilized dining environment.

00:05:05 - 00:05:45 Allison

So he actually installed very small sort of marble-top tables, almost like the ones you might see nowadays in a tea room. And these were the, this was the first time you would have an individual table, okay? There were mirrors, and that was going to be a really, really important part of restaurants later on, is this idea of mirrors and being able to see and be seen, but that's a little bit later. And so what he was going to serve in this restaurant was a broth, a restorative broth. I like to think of it as sort of the, at the time, the equivalent of the modern juice cleanse. It was something.

00:05:45 - 00:05:46 Caroline

A spa, almost.

00:05:46 - 00:06:00 Allison

Yeah, it was something very healthful and light, because remember that these aristocrats had very delicate constitutions. You know, they weren't going to be eating the big greasy hunk of meat. They were going to, you know, they just needed something a little bit, yeah, lighter to keep healthy.

00:06:01 - 00:06:03 Caroline

And so is that the only thing they would serve, is broth?

00:06:03 - 00:06:04 Allison

In the beginning.

00:06:04 - 00:06:04 Caroline

Okay.

00:06:04 - 00:06:06 Allison

Yeah, in the beginning, that's what was served.

00:06:06 - 00:06:07 Caroline

Broth bar.

00:06:07 - 00:06:08 Allison

Broth bar. Exactly.

00:06:08 - 00:06:10 Caroline

I mean, I think we have one of those where I grew up in New York.

00:06:11 - 00:06:12 Allison

Yeah, I'm sure you do.

00:06:12 - 00:06:13 Caroline

Like a bone broth bar.

00:06:13 - 00:06:14 Allison

Yeah, exactly.

00:06:14 - 00:06:14 Caroline

Okay.

00:06:14 - 00:06:32 Allison

So, yeah, that was, you know, la mode. So he opens up this little restaurant, and the idea is that this broth was something new, because it really, it wasn't something new, but it had only been served in hospitals, of course, you know, since Roman times, basically.

00:06:32 - 00:06:34 Caroline

Hospitals, but you come pay for it.

00:06:34 - 00:06:40 Allison

Yeah, exactly. Pay, you know, big bucks for it. So it was, it was a restorative broth. You know, it'd get you back on your feet.

00:06:41 - 00:06:54 Allison

And from that, we have the idea of it was, you know, like I said, a restorative broth. In French, we would say it's a restaurant. And so from that, we have, if you pronounce it a little bit differently, it's a restaurant.

00:06:55 - 00:07:01 Allison

So the restaurant, the restaurant, was actually the thing that you would drink. It was the broth. It wasn't the place.

00:07:02 - 00:07:02 Caroline

Okay.

00:07:02 - 00:07:23 Allison

And then, of course, as time went on, the place became the restaurant instead of just the broth. Kind of like later on, the bouillon, or broth, you know, became the name of a type of restaurant in Paris. But we'll get to that. But, so, yeah, that was something that was really new and different. Now, Boulanger, that was a pen name.

00:07:23 - 00:07:25 Caroline

Because you mentioned Boulanger had multiple names.

00:07:26 - 00:07:46 Allison

Yeah. So Boulanger was the guy who opened the restaurant. And then over here, you had this guy named Chantoiseau, who was basically distributing a little guide to the area around Les Halles. And actually, they were one and the same. So, of course, Chantoiseau was pointing people to his own restaurant, which was run by a certain Boulanger.

00:07:46 - 00:07:49 Caroline

Ducking under the little marble table and changing his hat.

00:07:49 - 00:07:49 Allison

Exactly.

00:07:49 - 00:07:50 Caroline

Okay.

00:07:50 - 00:07:53 Allison

Yeah. Wheeler-dealer, you know, master of self-promotion, you know.

00:07:53 - 00:07:54 Caroline

I love that.

00:07:54 - 00:07:55 Allison

Nothing new. So, nothing new under the sun.

00:07:56 - 00:08:00 Caroline

So this is the very first place that we have to go for these restorative broths.

00:08:00 - 00:08:00 Allison

Yes.

00:08:01 - 00:08:06 Caroline

How quickly is he imitated, and how quickly does he diversify from these broths to something else?

00:08:07 - 00:08:10 Allison

Okay, so what happens first is the diversification.

00:08:10 - 00:08:10 Caroline

Okay.

00:08:11 - 00:08:35 Allison

I mean, there may have been some imitators, but I don't, I don't get the impression from everything I've read and studied that there were many imitators in the beginning, because it was just something very, very simple. What did get him into really hot water was when he diversified, and he started serving basically a dish that was a sheep's foot in a sauce poulette.

00:08:36 - 00:08:37 Caroline

Sheep's foot.

00:08:37 - 00:08:52 Allison

Yeah, in a sauce poulette. So it was sort of like a creamy, like, rich sauce. Now, this was a big problem. Because, of course, during that time, from the Middle Ages up until the French Revolution, 1789, we had the food guilds, okay?

00:08:52 - 00:09:04 Allison

So these corporations, these food guilds, had, you know, everything under their purview. You know, you had the butcher's guild, you had the pork butcher's guild, you had the pickle guild, you had the vinegar guild, you had all the guilds, the pastry cook's guild.

00:09:05 - 00:09:12 Allison

And they had a lot of really hair-splitting rules and sort of arcane kind of ways of doing things. But of course, these guilds.

00:09:12 - 00:09:13 Caroline

Sorry, nothing has changed, basically.

00:09:14 - 00:09:35 Allison

Yeah, pretty much, yeah. Except these guilds had been basically blessed by the king from the Middle Ages on, and so also anointed by God. Because, of course, the king, God, the church, guilds. They were all like a big sort of mafia. They were all together, okay?

00:09:35 - 00:09:48 Allison

So that's one of the reasons for the demise of the guilds, right around the time of the French Revolution. But the problem was, is that this guy, Boulanger, serving a bouillon in a restaurant, okay? So far, so good. No problems.

00:09:49 - 00:09:58 Allison

The guilds were kind of like looking, like, what's that guy doing over there? Looks a little suspicious, but there's no broth guild. So, I mean, technically, he's not doing anything wrong.

00:09:58 - 00:09:59 Caroline

Should we start.

00:09:59 - 00:10:00 Emilie

We should have started a broth bar.

00:10:00 - 00:10:04 Caroline

Should we start the broth guild? That's going to be our Parisian bone broth bar.

00:10:04 - 00:10:06 Allison

Yeah, the bone broth guild. The broth guild.

00:10:06 - 00:10:07 Caroline

Yeah.

00:10:07 - 00:10:11 Allison

Le corporation des bouillons, le corporation des restaurants.

00:10:12 - 00:10:13 Caroline

We need to get a lot of a hat, some jewelry, robes.

00:10:13 - 00:10:16 Allison

Yes. Okay, I'll tell you about the robes in a little while. Anyway, so.

00:10:17 - 00:10:17 Caroline

They always have robes.

00:10:18 - 00:10:19 Allison

They're long, and they're blue, and they're velvet.

00:10:20 - 00:10:20 Caroline

Oh, my God.

00:10:20 - 00:10:45 Allison

But then we get in trouble with the knights of the Brotherhood of Saint-Antoine. But anyway. So, so what happens is this sheep's foot in the poulette sauce is all of a sudden under the purview of the traiteur guild. So these are like the cook-caterers, who are the ones who are responsible for making, like, stews and things like that. Things that are in sauce, okay? So.

00:10:46 - 00:10:49 Caroline

I just like that there's literally a guild for people that to deal with things in sauce.

00:10:50 - 00:10:50 Allison

Yeah.

00:10:50 - 00:11:02 Caroline

But, you know, these are people then, let's elaborate on that. Like, where, who are they serving? Are they serving merchants? Are they serving bourgeois families? Are they serving businesses? Like, if you're a traiteur at this time, who's eating your food?

00:11:03 - 00:11:14 Allison

Some of the people who might have been able to go to taverns, but maybe didn't, because women, or people who just didn't want to deal with the whole tavern atmosphere. Because taverns were kind of like a closed boys' club.

00:11:14 - 00:11:14 Caroline

Okay.

00:11:14 - 00:11:18 Allison

I mean, usually, when you went to a tavern, or a table d'hôte, you knew everyone else around the table.

00:11:18 - 00:11:19 Caroline

It's the pub.

00:11:19 - 00:11:33 Allison

Yeah, basically. And so if you didn't go there, you could always pick up food. I mean, that's always existed. So these traiteurs, who were eventually sort of incorporated into the charcutiers, or the pork butchers, were a separate guild.

00:11:34 - 00:11:46 Allison

So the traiteurs, and basically the whole guild system, they slap Boulanger, silly, with a lawsuit, okay? Because they're like, man, you're not allowed to do this. We're going to shut you down. Shut your stuff down, okay?

00:11:47 - 00:12:09 Allison

So that's actually great for Boulanger. I mean, it was a boon for him. Because, of course, all around Les Halles, in that area, you know, you've got people who are following this lawsuit, you know, inquiring minds want to know. And they were following it, and they're like, wow, who is this guy, Boulanger? And so that's free publicity for Boulanger, which is amazing. And then he wins, okay?

00:12:10 - 00:12:10 Caroline

Oh, okay.

00:12:10 - 00:12:23 Allison

And this is at the same time that the guilds are just, like, going straight down to hell, basically. Because we're getting up to the time of the French Revolution. So basically, I mean, that first restaurant predates the French Revolution.

00:12:23 - 00:12:32 Allison

And during the time that Boulanger is getting publicity, not only for customers, other people are getting interested in his offer in terms of, like, hey, if he can do it, I can do it too, kind of thing.

00:12:33 - 00:12:56 Allison

Then that's when you have French Revolution coming in, you know, aristocrats losing their heads, the chefs who they employed either leaving with them to go to England, Germany, you know, they're fleeing, maybe. And they are, though, out of a job instantly. So they see this model over here, and they're going to, you know, start opening restaurants.

00:12:56 - 00:12:56 Caroline

So there's truth to that.

00:12:56 - 00:13:21 Allison

Yeah, there is a grain of truth, of course. And at the same time, after the French Revolution, you have a lot of people coming up from other areas of France. Because, of course, everything's opening up. You've got the aristocrats leaving, the system, the entire social system has changed. And you've got all these men coming from different areas of France to find work and to find opportunity. So these guys are all coming up to Paris. They need to eat, you know?

00:13:21 - 00:13:50 Allison

So they're, the offer that was originally sort of for, you know, maybe like more sort of upper middle class, or the fainting aristocrats or whatever, is going to democratize. You know, it's going to sort of come down to the masses. Because, I mean, those people still could get, you know, food at a traiteur, like a, you know, cook-caterer, and carry things out. But, you know, little by little, they were going to start being able to go to these restaurants, you know, just like cheap, you know, cheap grub, basically.

00:13:50 - 00:13:58 Caroline

I mean, one thing that I, so I, in getting ready to interview you, I was reading Rebecca Spaing's book about the invention of the restaurant.

00:13:58 - 00:13:58 Allison

Yeah.

00:13:58 - 00:14:06 Caroline

And one of the things that she mentioned was actually kind of, that that was another point of distinction between the taverns and the restaurants, is that because, as you mentioned, you get your own table.

00:14:06 - 00:14:06 Allison

Yeah.

00:14:06 - 00:14:09 Caroline

Suddenly, you can go and just eat by yourself.

00:14:09 - 00:14:09 Allison

Yes.

00:14:10 - 00:14:11 Caroline

Okay.

00:14:11 - 00:14:29 Allison

And there were other differences, of course. And that's really, like, Chantoiseau-Boulanger's sort of legacy, is the idea that, for example, when you went to a tavern, you didn't, I mean, I guess there was a, there was an idea of how much you were going to pay, but maybe not a very specific idea. And you weren't, you definitely weren't going to get to choose what you ate.

00:14:29 - 00:14:47 Allison

So the idea when you go to the restaurant is that, you know, Chantoiseau was the first, or Boulanger, to put, to display a menu. Well, first of all, a menu. The idea of even having a menu that was printed and had prices, and that, you know, you had choices. That was, like, absolutely amazing.

00:14:48 - 00:15:07 Allison

The other thing is that he was the first to display the menu out in front. So you could actually look at the menu and decide if this place was for you, if they had an offer for you, and if it was in your price range before you ever set foot in the door. Because once you've set foot in the door, it's like, oh, no, how do we get out of here? This place is too expensive.

00:15:07 - 00:15:21 Allison

And that actually holds true today, that, you know, it's a French law, if I'm not mistaken, that every restaurant must display its menu outside. So you can have a look, and then move on your merry way, if it doesn't, you know, correspond to your budget.

00:15:22 - 00:15:26 Caroline

So this place would have been, even to us today, immediately recognizable as a restaurant.

00:15:27 - 00:15:29 Allison

I think so, with the menus outside.

00:15:29 - 00:15:30 Caroline

Menus outside, right?

00:15:30 - 00:15:30 Allison

Yeah.

00:15:31 - 00:15:31 Caroline

Yeah.

00:15:31 - 00:15:43 Allison

And the idea that, yeah, the little marble-top tables, you know. And, and even a woman could go, you know, maybe not right away, but a woman could go and not be bothered by anyone. She was sitting at her own table. So that was really important.

00:15:43 - 00:15:44 Caroline

That's a big deal.

00:15:44 - 00:15:45 Allison

It's a miracle. Yeah.

00:15:45 - 00:15:56 Allison

And then again, you've got that whole, like, story about all the mirrors all around, which still exist today. You know, they exist today in the big brasseries, things like that. It's very much this, like, see and be seen kind of thing.

00:15:56 - 00:16:07 Allison

And you could discreetly, you know, see what other people were eating by looking in the mirror. And, you know, you're really looking that way because you're looking in the mirror that way. And you can also check out somebody's hat, somebody's dress, somebody's.

00:16:08 - 00:16:08 Caroline

Mistress?

00:16:08 - 00:16:20 Allison

Yes, somebody's mistress, for sure. Somebody's spats, if you're looking further down. You know what I mean? Like, so all of those were a thing. And those, those mirrors were a really important social element of the restaurant.

00:16:20 - 00:16:29 Caroline

It's funny, because it's, it's like antisocial in a way, but it's, it's not, it's the opposite of the tavern, where everyone's up at everyone's business. You're just kind of like.

00:16:29 - 00:16:29 Allison

Yeah.

00:16:30 - 00:16:31 Caroline

Up at everyone's business, but.

00:16:31 - 00:16:33 Allison

In a very discreet, very French way.

00:16:33 - 00:16:34 Caroline

Très discret.

00:16:34 - 00:16:36 Allison

Yeah, très discret. So it was good.

00:16:36 - 00:16:47 Caroline

And you were talking earlier about this neighborhood. So obviously, the very first restaurant that you mentioned being right around Rue du Louvre, and then all of these other places kind of popping up around Les Halles.

00:16:47 - 00:16:47 Allison

Yes.

00:16:48 - 00:17:06 Caroline

So Les Halles, for people who aren't familiar with Paris, used to be the major market district of Paris. And if I'm not mistaken, a lot of, even though the original restaurant is no longer there, a lot of the very early restaurants that popped up around Les Halles, some of them are still there. Some of the really old ones are still around.

00:17:06 - 00:17:06 Allison

Yes.

00:17:07 - 00:17:07 Caroline

In some form.

00:17:08 - 00:17:18 Allison

Yes, in some form, definitely. My favorite example is Le Pied de Cochon, the pig's foot. Now, when you see on the awning, it's, you know, I like to say it's only been there since 1947.

00:17:18 - 00:17:30 Allison

But of course, there were always restaurants along that street from basically the very beginning, because it was just outside of that Philip Augustus, you know, medieval wall.

00:17:30 - 00:17:49 Allison

And of course, it was easier and better and far cheaper to go outside of medieval Paris to eat and drink, just the way it was, you know, much later when you, people would go to Montmartre to go to cabarets, because it was outside of the city walls. You know, it was cheaper, it was, it was a little bit more dangerous, you know, a little bit.

00:17:49 - 00:17:50 Caroline

People drinking absinthe.

00:17:50 - 00:17:52 Allison

Yeah, artists. I mean, all the good stuff.

00:17:52 - 00:17:52 Caroline

Yeah.

00:17:52 - 00:18:09 Allison

But anyway, that whole sort of street, that part near Le Pied de Cochon, there's always tons of turnover. I mean, there's always, you know, renovation going on and new restaurants opening up. But that little part of that street has always been open, because, and it wasn't for the type of restaurant that an aristocrat would go to.

00:18:09 - 00:18:24 Allison

It was really almost just for the people who worked at Les Halles, the strongmen of Les Halles, you know, with the big hats. They were le feu, Les Halles, the guys moving wicker baskets around with vegetables and fruit and meat, and hauling the meat around to different parts of the market.

00:18:24 - 00:18:40 Allison

So, you know, when these guys, when these strongmen got out of Les Halles at 3 a.m. or whatever time it was, they needed food. And so they would usually go over to this street to basically get a bowl of, like, gratiné Les Halles, like, basically French onion soup, because it was the cheapest thing around.

00:18:40 - 00:18:49 Caroline

So soup, big deal in French restaurants, apparently. Soup is going to govern, you know, the very invention of the restaurant. We're going to eat a lot of soup in restaurants.

00:18:49 - 00:18:58 Caroline

And then there's another type of restaurant, I mean, I don't know if we'd call it a restaurant, now that we know what a restaurant is called, called the bouillon, which is another reference to soup.

00:18:58 - 00:19:06 Caroline

So when does that kind of break off from the main restaurant trajectory? Or is that really how we'd say it does?

00:19:06 - 00:19:11 Allison

I don't, I don't know if it sort of broke off. Yeah, it did sort of have its own trajectory, yes.

00:19:12 - 00:19:43 Allison

Right, it was right around, like, 1850s, basically, early 1850s, that a butcher named Duval, who was around in Les Halles area, he basically noticed that he was selling a lot of his, like, wonderful, like, choice cuts of meat to wealthier people. And no one was buying, like, the lower cuts, as we call them, sort of like, not just, like, variety meats, but basically the long cooking cuts that, like, no one wants to deal with, or maybe at that time that, you know, people just wanted the tender, expensive cuts.

00:19:44 - 00:20:11 Allison

So what he decided to do was basically make a broth out of those cuts of meat and serve it in a restaurant. A little bit like what Chantoiseau-Boulanger was doing, but this was going to be for the working man. I mean, this was absolutely a very, very basic kind of thing. And so he opened up this first sort of, what I like to call the first fast food restaurant, really.

00:20:12 - 00:20:31 Allison

And he opened up a bouillon. And then it became sort of the family empire. And I don't remember how many bouillons they had in, you know, at the heyday, maybe like four or five. And so that was really a very working-class kind of environment. You know, it was very, very cheap, cheap and cheerful, and.

00:20:31 - 00:20:31 Caroline

They're still cheap.

00:20:31 - 00:20:32 Allison

Yes.

00:20:32 - 00:20:33 Caroline

Bouillons are still really cheap.

00:20:33 - 00:20:49 Allison

That is absolutely the whole idea, is whether we're talking about a bouillon, like at the classic bouillon, like bouillon Chartier, or a neo-bouillon, which is something that's going to be maybe a little bit more expensive, but you get better products. You get better ingredients.

00:20:49 - 00:20:59 Allison

You know, you might have, like, a farm egg, as opposed to just a regular old hard-boiled egg in your œufs-mayo, in your egg mayo. And the service is pretty much the same.

00:20:59 - 00:21:19 Allison

It's the kind of restaurant, because a bouillon is definitely a type of restaurant, you know? It's the kind of thing where they probably have paper on the table, you know, paper or tablecloth. And I know at Chartier, for example, they write your order right on the, on that paper on the table. They're a little bit gruff.

00:21:20 - 00:21:21 Caroline

A little bit, a little bit a lot.

00:21:21 - 00:21:23 Allison

Yeah, depending on where you go.

00:21:23 - 00:21:34 Caroline

When I went to Chartier, like, the guy, I have never, I think he was rolling his eyes so hard he was seeing the inside of his skull. Anytime I asked, had the audacity to ask for water or salt.

00:21:34 - 00:21:38 Allison

Yeah. Well, and that's the thing. You just got to get right up in their business, because.

00:21:39 - 00:21:40 Caroline

They're hustling, right? They're turning tables too.

00:21:40 - 00:21:51 Allison

Totally. But you're there to enjoy a meal. And so if you are meek at all about any of your behavior, then they're just going to totally, like, steamroll right over you.

00:21:51 - 00:21:58 Allison

So you just have to give it back to them. And they love it. You've got to have that, that sense of répartie, you know?

00:21:58 - 00:22:06 Allison

You're, you're, it's, it's a game. It's flirting. It's discussing the most serious thing that we have to discuss in France, which is food and drink.

00:22:07 - 00:22:22 Caroline

You've been here for a really long time. You know French culture inside and out, but you also interact with a lot of visitors, because you are a guide. And I think there's a lot of pieces of the restaurant puzzle in Paris, because restaurants now, of course, exist outside of Paris. And we go, we're used to going to restaurants.

00:22:22 - 00:22:46 Caroline

So someone comes here from wherever they're from, they sit down in a French restaurant, and they can be surprised by a certain number of cultural codes. And I think one of the big things that surprises people is that it's going to take a long time. If you're going to eat in a restaurant, everything from placing your order to receiving your order to getting the bill is going to take time.

00:22:46 - 00:22:52 Caroline

So can you tell us a little bit culturally, what does that mean? Why, why is it taking so long, basically?

00:22:53 - 00:23:11 Allison

It's, it's really, it goes back to why French food is so important, and why the French gastronomic meal is on the UNESCO list of intangible heritage. I mean, that's one of the sort of precepts of that, is this whole idea that your meal is a moment.

00:23:11 - 00:23:36 Allison

It's just a moment to be and enjoy and take pleasure in life, in the food, in the wine, in all the different courses that you're going to eat, whether it's a two- or three-course meal to a ten-course meal in a Michelin-star restaurant. You're enjoying the wines. You're enjoying the interaction with the other people at your table, because community and the people you're eating with is a really, really big part of that as well.

00:23:36 - 00:23:57 Allison

I was with some American clients in a Michelin-star restaurant quite a few years ago, and the remark that they made was really funny, because they said, "I feel like I'm in church." And I said, "You are. In France, this restaurant, being in this environment, it's like going to church on Sunday." You know, it's, it's really that important.

00:23:57 - 00:24:06 Caroline

It's about respecting the work of the institution, which is touching on all those details. And it also harkens back to Boulanger, Chantoiseau. It's restorative.

00:24:06 - 00:24:06 Allison

Yeah.

00:24:06 - 00:24:29 Caroline

It's a restorative moment to be, to enjoy yourself, to indulge in someone else taking care of you, to appreciate and respect their vision for that, which is not just about the food, but about the decor, about the wine list, about the service. And, and I think that we Americans tend to basically expect to actually receive whatever they want, but you go to receive what these people are offering.

00:24:29 - 00:24:30 Allison

Yeah.

00:24:30 - 00:24:40 Caroline

And often, you know, there are small menus, and you get what you get. And I think, you know, substitutions are pretty heavily front-on. There's easier and more difficult substitutions that you can ask for.

00:24:40 - 00:25:00 Caroline

And like, you know, if you are vegetarian or vegan, and you go somewhere and they have a vegetarian dish, often they can make it vegan these days. Like they're, I think they are more accommodating today than they used to be, but it's, you know, you're not going to go in and ask for, like, this is something that my family does, my American family.

00:25:00 - 00:25:08 Caroline

My mom will, like, go to a restaurant. My mom is going to be so mad at me for saying this. Sorry, Mom. And be like, "Well, can I have green beans instead of broccoli?"

00:25:08 - 00:25:08 Allison

Right.

00:25:08 - 00:25:10 Caroline

And here they would be like, "No."

00:25:10 - 00:25:10 Allison

No.

00:25:11 - 00:25:14 Caroline

Because there's probably, I mean, those things are not in the same season at the same time either.

00:25:14 - 00:25:15 Allison

Right.

00:25:15 - 00:25:23 Caroline

Or also they'll, they'll say, like, you know, I've been somewhere where it's like, "Oh, I'd like beef bourguignon, and it comes with coquillettes, and can I have it with mashed potatoes?" And they're like, "No, that's not the dish."

00:25:24 - 00:25:24 Allison

No.

00:25:24 - 00:25:24 Caroline

Yeah.

00:25:24 - 00:25:24 Allison

No.

00:25:25 - 00:25:25 Caroline

So we have.

00:25:25 - 00:25:27 Allison

The chef gets to decide what you are eating.

00:25:28 - 00:25:28 Caroline

Right.

00:25:28 - 00:25:33 Allison

The chef is the supreme authority. And I know that sounds extremely rigid, but it is.

00:25:34 - 00:25:34 Caroline

Yeah.

00:25:34 - 00:25:49 Allison

What, the reason why French, the French meal is something that has been preserved for so many years and even improved upon is because there is this very rigid structure. And that's something that the French will always defend.

00:25:49 - 00:26:05 Caroline

If you could offer one piece of advice to someone who's coming to Paris and they say, "I want a restaurant experience that's going to change my mind about restaurants," would you tell them to go to a bouillon? Would you tell them to go to a fine dining restaurant? Would you tell them to go to a bistro, a brasserie? Where would you send them?

00:26:05 - 00:26:08 Allison

Okay, to change their mind about restaurants, about French restaurants, or.

00:26:09 - 00:26:19 Caroline

To make, to make them understand, live, live this experience, this culture that we've been talking about, what makes French restaurants so special? Where, where should they go to see that best?

00:26:19 - 00:26:21 Allison

I would say a Michelin-star restaurant.

00:26:21 - 00:26:21 Caroline

Okay.

00:26:21 - 00:26:23 Allison

Absolutely. And it doesn't have to be. So

00:26:23 - 00:26:24 Caroline

it's like a Chartreux?

00:26:24 - 00:26:30 Allison

It doesn't have to be several stars. It can be a one-star restaurant, because that's already an experience in and of itself.

00:26:30 - 00:26:37 Caroline

And it can be at lunch, which isn't even the biggest expense. I mean, you can go to a Michelin-star restaurant for lunch for like 40 euros.

00:26:37 - 00:26:38 Allison

I would say.

00:26:38 - 00:26:38 Caroline

40.

00:26:38 - 00:26:39 Allison

Maybe more like 60. 50?

00:26:39 - 00:26:40 Caroline

Okay.

00:26:40 - 00:26:42 Allison

52 is the, like, the lowest.

00:26:42 - 00:26:42 Caroline

Okay.

00:26:42 - 00:26:51 Allison

But let's put aside the, you know, the budgetary concerns for the moment, because, I mean, you're not actually paying that much for what you're getting in return.

00:26:52 - 00:26:54 Caroline

Because they're also all staffed by, like, armies of interns.

00:26:54 - 00:27:03 Allison

Yeah. And, well, but also, you have to consider that, I mean, profit margins for gastronomic restaurants are really, really narrow.

00:27:03 - 00:27:03 Caroline

Minuscule.

00:27:03 - 00:27:20 Allison

They are paying so much for the raw material, the ingredients, that, I mean, it's, it's really, even, like, for fish is the worst. I think, I mean, I think in restaurants, they're charging maybe like 1.5, like, times the cost of the buying the fish. Like, that's insane.

00:27:20 - 00:27:32 Allison

You know, they're making up for it on beverages. So when they're asking you what kind of water you want, whether it's going to be, you know, still water or sparkling water, and you're buying water, you don't have to. You can always ask for a carafe.

00:27:32 - 00:27:40 Allison

But I would say in a Michelin-star restaurant, go with the flow and buy water, because you're saving that restaurant from, like, ruin, basically.

00:27:40 - 00:27:40 Caroline

Yeah.

00:27:40 - 00:28:07 Allison

By ordering wines, by ordering bottled water, by ordering dessert, because then the margins are a little bit higher. And you're paying for artistry. You're paying for craftsmanship. You're paying for all this training, this muscle memory, the whole staff in the kitchen that is absolutely entirely focused on creating pleasure for you. And that is priceless, as far as I'm concerned.

00:28:08 - 00:28:34 Allison

And, you know, those are the kind of restaurants where, as we mentioned, you've got that very hushed, reverential atmosphere, because you're just so concentrated on the flavors, the interactions of different flavors in your mouth, the wines, how they're paired with the food, maybe your, your friends, your partners, your, you're just having this extremely pleasurable experience together. Gosh, that sounds a little bit raunchy, almost. I love it.

00:28:34 - 00:28:35 Caroline

It sounds perfect.

00:28:35 - 00:28:37 Allison

Yeah, I love it. Anyway, so it's.

00:28:38 - 00:28:39 Caroline

But it's such a special thing.

00:28:39 - 00:28:39 Allison

Yeah.

00:28:39 - 00:28:51 Caroline

And it's funny, because I guess I'm kind of like, I'm not desensitized, I'm not desensitized to it, because I still, it still lifts me up and makes me so happy. But like, we do it, I do it a few times a year.

00:28:51 - 00:28:51 Allison

Yeah.

00:28:52 - 00:28:53 Caroline

And that's, that's a privilege.

00:28:53 - 00:28:53 Allison

Yeah.

00:28:54 - 00:28:54 Caroline

Yeah. Yeah.

00:28:54 - 00:28:54 Allison

00:28:54 - 00:28:56 Caroline

But it is, it's like going to the theater.

00:28:57 - 00:28:57 Allison

Yeah.

00:28:57 - 00:28:58 Caroline

You know? It's a performance.

00:28:58 - 00:28:59 Allison

It's a performance.

00:28:59 - 00:29:07 Caroline

And in, in, like, literally, like, I, I want everybody to understand, like, we're talking about also a lot of people. These are places that employ a lot of people, like going to the ballet.

00:29:07 - 00:29:07 Allison

Yeah.

00:29:07 - 00:29:20 Caroline

There's a team of people in the kitchen and the front of house and in the cellar and cleaning. The number of people that these places need to give you the experience that you're having, like, all behind the scenes, it's incredible. It's extraordinary.

00:29:20 - 00:29:32 Allison

It really is. And, and that's what, you know, part of what makes it such a special experience, because all of these people are dedicated to this pursuit of pleasure. And I just, I love that. I love that about France.

00:29:33 - 00:29:37 Caroline

Alison, thank you so much for coming on the podcast today. We have learned so much.

00:29:37 - 00:29:37 Allison

Yeah. And

00:29:37 - 00:29:52 Caroline

I'm sure all our listeners have learned a lot about restaurants. And hopefully you'll come to France with a slightly different mindset when you walk into a French restaurant, knowing all this history, knowing the cultural weight of it. And hopefully that'll make you enjoy the experience even more.

00:29:53 - 00:29:56 Emilie

This has been the Real Fish Wives of Paris. Thank you so much, Alison.

00:29:56 - 00:29:58 Allison

Thank you for having me. It's been a pleasure.

00:29:59 - 00:29:59 Caroline

Well, à bientôt.

00:30:00 - 00:30:00 Allison

Au revoir.