start having daily business meetings with God.

Like act just like you would put meetings with other people, have daily business

meetings with God and not just so that you can have your checklist of things.

Look, I'm gonna pray for my clients.

I'm gonna do, I'm gonna do that, but actually give him some space to create

an agenda in your time together.

Welcome to Seek Go Create Tim Winders, your host here.

Beautiful summer day here.

We're hanging out in Rapid City, South Dakota.

Our guest is down in Fort Lauderdale.

It's 75 degrees where I'm at.

Those watching, you might see the breeze with the curtain behind me cuz I got

the windows open here in Theo, the rv.

This is where we redefine success.

in leadership, business, and ministry today, all three of those.

We're gonna be hitting on all three of those with our guest.

I'm excited.

Let's dive right in.

I've got Shae Bynes.

She is a passionate storyteller, mentor and strategist who equips

leaders to be catalyst for transformation in the marketplace.

Love those words.

she calls herself a Chief Fire Igniter.

You could bet I'm gonna ask her about that.

She co-founded what they call Kingdom Driven Entrepreneur,

2012, a little over 10 years ago.

Now.

It's a global movement that is inspiring, teaching, mentoring, and advising

Christ-centered entrepreneurs who desire to do business in partnership with God

for greater kingdom influence and impact.

Welcome to Seek Go Create.

Thank you Tim.

I am really looking forward to our chat cuz I enjoyed our first one

immensely and now we get to do a second one here for the podcast.

So

Oh my goodness.

Yeah.

Before I get into my first question, I, we had a great conversation, folks.

Sometimes I go in cold.

For some reason Shea and I felt the need to have a chit chat

before, and it was like, bam.

so we scheduled this and she told me late yesterday, she also has a book.

So I got it.

Read most of it.

We'll be covering that.

Let me give you the title real quick.

Grace Over Grind.

Is that right?

That's it,

Grace Over Grind, which fits so well with what I've been thinking.

Jesus never hustled.

Why should we?

It just, we're gonna, we're going to, we're gonna gel here, but

before I get too much farther, Shae let's pretend we just met.

Not instead of, and I ask you or anyone ask you, or you're out and

about and someone says, what do you do?

What's your standard answer that you give people?

my standard answer would be that I work with Christ

following entrepreneurs who desire to do business and partnership with

God, so they can make a really great impact on the world around them.

Okay.

Do you give that answer.

to a Gentile or is that in church world or I can throw on an airplane.

You throw an airplane,

I actually will give that answer anywhere.

I haven't had a problem with that and it's been interesting because

sometimes it'll lead to some other follow up questions or whatever.

I played around with other things, cuz sometimes if I'm in the midst

of a particular context, I'll play around with it and say something

else and just, and it's just funks.

I just love getting to know people.

But that's pretty much my standard answer.

And people usually are just like, oh, that's great.

And

sometimes

they have follow up questions, sometimes they don't.

And I keep it moving.

So I'm gonna tag onto something on your LinkedIn profile.

Your tagline there says, I agitate the world of business for the

Kingdom of God among other things.

that is correct.

So tie those together.

Tie, because some people are right out of the gate if they've hung around me.

They're not, but the word agitate the world of business.

You're a business person, right?

I am.

I've been in business either on a part-time or a full-time

basis since what, 1999.

So even when I was working my corporate job, I had a side business, and then

when I left my corporate career, I went to full-time entrepreneurship in 2010.

And you wouldn't be called just slacker just getting by.

You barely did.

Okay.

In the business world you were hitting home runs over there, correct?

I had a pretty great corporate career.

I really did.

Yeah.

The reason I bring that up and I'm gonna make you give a

little bit more on that, is that.

In, I'll use the term church.

In church world, sometimes there's this thought that sometimes people go hang out

and use terms like kingdom or Christian and things like that because they

cannot perform in some of those worlds.

Y you and I know this is not the case.

I'm allow you to tau your horn a little bit.

Yeah, You would not fit that category at all.

Give just a little glimpse as we get started.

We're not gonna dive deep into that cuz there's so many other

things I wanna dive deep in.

But give a little glimpse of what you quote unquote air quotes here

for those who aren't seeing it, what you achieved, accomplished,

your success in that in that world.

Yeah.

And it's actually funny hearing you say that was just so funny to me.

Cause I was like, really my entrance into focusing on kingdom driven

entrepreneurship, I didn't, I had to learn what kingdom meant.

So if that's just a whole funny as all by itself.

But my background in corporate was in technology, so I got a degree

in computer science and I started a corporate career as a software

engineer, then moved up the ranks there.

So I've been a project manager, program director led global

university research for some time.

And so I was there for, at I B M corporation for a little over 10 years.

I was headed towards my 11th.

When I had a pretty abrupt disruption from the Lord that led

to me leaving my corporate career.

But yeah, I had a lot of different jobs while I was at I B M I loved it.

Was moving along really well, but I knew I didn't wanna have a long term

career there cause I wasn't, there was this phrase we used to use Tim in

the company that was like, oh, people who are executives, they have to bleed

blue cuz it was big blue, the company.

And I was like, I'm not willing to bleed blue for these folks.

So I love the work, but I won't be here forever.

Yeah.

When you start understanding our identity and who we are in Christ,

it's listen, I only bleed one way

There's only one blood in my book, and It's not yours.

I will do above and beyond, but I am not selling out.

So that's interesting.

I've worked for about nine years at BellSouth,

Oh, that's where my dad worked and retired from.

Yeah.

So I get that and the reason I bring that up and we I'm gonna circle back

to us defining kingdom here, because that's, yes, that's real big for me.

Sometimes we throw around words that maybe not everyone's clear on, but I had this

fascinating situation occur, Shea, when we were at Bible school for a couple years,

there was a couple business people there.

So a lot of people were wanting to go full-time ministry.

That was their desire.

And truthfully, that was the pecking order.

Us, us business people, we were down, way down the food chain, which I was

like going but I don't understand that.

And so there was a guy that came up to me and he was doing some projects

with some greenhouses and things.

We were trying to get 'em injected into some missions,

fields and things like that.

And I said

why don't we get missionaries to do this and all that?

And he said, Tim, he says, I hate to tell you, we've talked to a

number of 'em and they're just lazy.

They don't wanna do work.

And the reason I bring that up here is you would definitely be considered in my book.

I've talked to you a few times, I've studied you now over the last

24 hours getting ready for this.

You would be high performer, correct?

That's, we're not like joking if we call you high performer, right?

Yeah.

That was definitely, and I used to be pretty achievement achievement

oriented and performance driven.

So yes, you could definitely define me that way.

Yes, I've learned how to submit that in, but yes.

So what we do here is we talk about redefining success.

How did you define success in that world?

And then we're gonna talk, we're gonna move to kingdom

here in just a little while.

yeah.

So I would say that I had like my list of goals.

So take me back to after my, my college.

So in my twenties, up to my late twenties, early thirties

before I really transitioned.

I would say success to me was,

Make a million by the time I'm 40 have a particular type of house.

Have some side business activity, like some real estate, have this great family

dynamic, healthy kids and marriage.

That's pro I would've definitely defined it by things and by

like manifestations of success.

Like the, it's like I would've defined like fruitfulness from like things.

Were you a Christ follower at that time or did you

have interaction with Christ?

I, I don't even recall ever not being in church.

So I was raised in a church going family.

My dad was an elder in the church.

My mom was a volunteer in the church regularly, so I was always in church.

But basically, I would say I knew a lot of Bible stories.

I knew Jesus loved me.

I had no concept of the Holy Spirit in my life whatsoever.

And then when I was in college and I chose my own church, then I went to a church

that was, I learned about the Holy Spirit, but it was super prosperity focused.

And so mostly, so I would hear, learn about faith from that perspective.

And then I might see a move of the spirit here or there, but it would only be in

the context of something really awesome that happened, like someone was healed at

the front, at the altar, at shirt, right?

But I just didn't, I just didn't have any sense of just like the leading,

the guidance, the goodness of just that inflowing spirit, holy Spirit in my life.

I did not have that until I just had these encounters with God.

Yeah, I'm glad you brought up the prosperity message gospel.

We would do money coming to me.

in.

Hi.

I'm on

that was my co those one, my college years.

I after I found Jesus, he found me.

He was pursuing me all along.

I just finally relented or, accepted.

I was full on gonna be making me some money.

So the Prosperity Gospel fit really well into

same.

And listen, just, I wanna say this right up front as a disclaimer.

I think most of the first world Americanized church is

a prosperity gospel church.

We'll get, we may get into that later.

And I know A lot of people now are their heads are spinning,

they're spitting out green stuff.

But I'm telling you they're all about comfort.

They're all about their stuff and God's formula.

But it.

sounds like you compartmentalized a little bit.

You had your spiritual life, you had your business, you had your success.

How did that work out for you and at what point did you start

making that change, that shift?

Yeah.

So from my perspective then it was working at just fine because

I was pretty achievement oriented.

Am like a goal.

I go after it, I get it.

That was just the way I was, was a great student, got a great paying

job right outta college, got married right outta college, bought a house.

We did all of that so in my mind in that time, it was working for me, at least from

my very limited perspective at that time.

The shift happened for me.

It was funny.

I had a couple shifts.

The first massive shift for me is when I got pregnant with my first child.

So we had been married for nine months, and so I was still right

outta college, that got graduated, got married, started the job.

So nine months into our marriage, I got pregnant with my first child,

which was well before my, that was the first time that I experienced

something that I did not plan.

Like I, I planned to have a child like three or four to five

years into our marriage, not nine months into our marriage.

So that was the first thing where it was like, oh, snap.

Like I, I don't have the control that I thought and hold on, I

don't even know how to do this.

I'm the youngest of three I don't even know how to be a mom.

So my first like inclination towards God, help be with me please, and not

just me holler at you, from time to time and just know that you love me

came as a mom, a young mom, but that still, if I was still compartmentalized.

So it was still that with my parenting and certainly with my marriage, but my

work, my professional life, it wasn't that I was operating against him or didn't

want him involved, I just didn't have a concept that he desired to be involved.

So it really was a more of ignorance than, Me having a concern or not

avoiding something I just didn't know.

But when you grow up with not really knowing the Holy Spirit's role

in your life, it's very easy to compartmentalize and to not think

that he cares about that stuff.

Our culture, the, first world Greco whatever you wanna call it,

we are all about com, compartmentalizing everything, our hobbies, our marriage,

our even sometimes children and success and church and all that.

We just compartmentalize.

And what that does I think it puts God in a different place than in, in all.

Honesty.

We, some of us will eventually find out.

I think everybody will, that's not the way we should live.

So at some point you started shifting into this kingdom mindset.

You'll hear me use the term Babylon.

To me there's Babylon or the world system and then there's the kingdom.

When was that?

I know some things happened in 2012 and different things like that, but

when was that, and let's kinda walk through some of the events that

forced you to redefine what that air quotes again, success meant for you.

Okay.

So this happened in a couple layers.

So the first layer of that happened in 2009 when I was doing what I did in

January of every year, which was create my own goals, create my own plans,

and then ask the Lord to bless them.

That was pretty much my thing.

And so I would do that every January and this particular January for the first

time, I heard from the Lord back, like I was talking to him, asking him to bless

my stuff, and then I heard from him for the first time, and it was, you're

gonna leave this job by June of 2010.

And I knew that was God, because you, I'm a strategist and a planner.

That wasn't my plan, that wasn't my thought.

So I was like, that's a different thought.

I think that was God.

So I write that down in my, along with all of my plans.

I wrote down, I'm gonna leave this job by June of 2010.

And then I did what any strategist and planner does.

I created a list of what all the wisdom that I would need to apply and

the things I would need to accomplish in order to lead my corporate job.

And it was wise advice if I said, give to anybody, like wise

things to have in order, right?

So thankfully my husband has a gift of faith, and so even though it made zero

practical sense at all for me to be even thinking about leaving my job at June

of 2010, my husband's Hey, if that's what the Lord's doing, let's do it.

Even though it made no sense.

So I go throughout that year and I was getting these nudges from the Holy Spirit.

This was all a kind of a new kind of experience for me.

So it was just like, I'm getting these nudges, and I remember getting so

uncomfortable that I started praying and asking the guy just have them lay me off.

People are getting laid off left and right.

They're getting a year's worth of, severance pay.

They're getting a year's worth of health insurance.

They're upset that they're getting fi, they're getting

laid off, but I'd be delighted.

So let them lay me off.

And I'm in the midst of that and I got a promotion.

People are getting laid off and I got promoted.

And I'm like, okay, so that's not gonna work.

So I go with all this discomfort, I go right into the year 2010.

I'm at a business conference.

It's April, 2010.

I'm at this business conference, Tim, and I'm ironing my clothes, getting

ready to go to the last session.

And I heard from God, like I had never ever heard from God before, and I have

not heard from him like this since.

And it was go, it was like, it shook me.

It wasn't like I heard a loud, booming voice, but I might as well have

because it was like I ca captured it all, and it was sh it like it

shook me and I knew it was God.

I knew I didn't know where I was going, but I knew where I was supposed to go

from cuz he had already been talking to me and nudging me all for several months.

So I called my husband right away and I was like, babe, I gotta I gotta go.

I gotta go.

God says God side for me to go.

Now, this was at a reverential fear of the Lord at this point.

Okay?

And so I go back home from Orlando from this conference.

I called my boss the next Monday, and I'm like, look, I don't know how to tell you

this, but I gotta get my 30 days notice.

He's like, where are you going?

I'm like, I don't know.

He's to do what?

I'm like, I don't know.

And it's okay.

And 30 days later, sure enough, I left that job and my

last day was May 31st, 2010.

I didn't even make that connection, by the way, until my months later.

I sure enough left.

So that was the first connection point.

He disrupted me in a really kind of radical way in that way.

And I was shook and had a reverential fear.

I left because then I left and then I went into hustle and grind

mode cuz now God's got me out here.

Now I gotta make it happen.

So the real estate business that I was doing on the side, now I'm like,

I'm going all in, doing all the hours, trying to make all the things

happen in this real estate business.

Not even talking to the Lord about like, why did I read this job?

What do you have on your heart concerning?

It was such a disconnect for me.

So I go in trying to make all the things happen and Tim, I made

this much progress for those who are listening and not watching.

My fingers are really close together.

I made very little progress and I knew what I was doing.

And so I heard now another voice, but this time it wasn't as loud.

It was a stat soft, still small voice that we hear about of the Holy Spirit.

And it was, are you done yet?

And I was like, yeah, I'm done.

And so that was my second gear shift and I'm like, okay, God,

clearly you have interest in what I'm doing in a way that I didn't.

Realize, and so maybe I should start to pay attention to what you've got on

your mind and your heart concerning me.

And so that was my first shift into really allowing him into the

space of my professional life.

I, he was very much present in my wife and mom aspect of life.

Am I going to church on Sunday?

But I, but this part, this was new.

This was really new.

And so that was the beginning shift.

There's more shifts.

I don't know if you wanna explore that more, but I can go to the

next gear that you wanna move it to, the next gear, the 2012 gear

that you referred to, or you wanna

Yeah I wanna pause for just a second because there's

something that I've had theories about that I don't know how to prove.

So it's just through conversations like this, if you and I would've

gotten together, let's call it pre moving over into the kingdom a

hundred percent or at least as high a percentage as we believe we need to be.

Before then we would've gotten together.

And with the skills that I've got, skills you've got bringing other people in we

could have created some jamming, jamming plans and operations, stuff like that.

And sounds like we bring your husband in and my wife in and

we've got us a mega operation.

that's right.

Because all this cool stuff in real estate.

yeah, we did.

Yeah, we did.

We did some real estate too.

Let's don't go

did.

road.

and I think that we would've, the plans would've worked.

We would've put it in place.

But once, once you step over into the realm that is we'll

talk Kingdom in just a moment.

Yes.

I think everything changes and those things.

I'm not gonna say they don't work.

That's not the right way of saying it.

They don't work the same way.

They don't work with our hands.

They don't

I'm trying to say a few things and then I'm gonna put a question mark at

the end and let you talk to, but to me it's once you get to a certain place,

you can't go back to the way we used to be, even though sometimes we'd like to.

What do you now what?

Say you.

I, listen, this is what I, this is how I talk about it.

I talk about being like having water up to your ankles, being ankle

deep, versus being knee deep, versus being waist deep, versus being neck

deep versus being over your head.

And I think you can, when you're ankle deep, you can just kinda hump in and out.

I'm playing, and I've spent some time ankle deep, but once that water went above

my ankles, there was no turning back.

There was no, even if I didn't understand what was ahead, I didn't

know what this was going to look like.

There was enough for me to know that this is my new reality, this is a

higher reality, this is my reality.

And so even though I don't understand fully and I don't know where

I'm headed, I can't turn back.

I have to keep moving forward.

And I think once you're, once that water's a little bit, just metaphorically, a

little bit above your ankles, like that's where the point where it's no, I can't,

there's no, I can't hop back on the short.

Like I gotta keep going.

I always wondered if it's j if it has a lot to do, if not

a hundred percent to do with identity.

I thought I was a pretty bright guy.

The older, more mature I get, I think less and less.

I'm not that bright.

And I'm not saying that in any kind of false humility or anything.

I do think I've got skills and talent, but I just am recognizing I'm not

that good even though I'm pretty good.

And so I do wonder if part of that journey of drawing near this is

what I joke about all the time is less of Tim and more of him.

You may have heard me say that.

I like that.

and part of it is getting my arrogance confidence, getting my

identity changed from one to the other.

What are your thoughts when someone says identity, because that's a big

word in the culture that we're in.

Yeah.

That, that is a big word, but.

To me, identity is everything because I really, I'll say identity is everything

and intimacy with God is everything.

So intimacy with God, with everything is everything because it reveals

identity, it roots you, an identity and everything grows from there, right?

So when I think about the journey of and we haven't moved to that third leg

yet, it was the growing intimacy with God that then led to stronger rooted

identity in God that then everything else blossoms from, and to this day, and so

to me, that identity piece is everything because that's the orientation in which we

engage ourselves and the world around us.

And so it's how we think about God, how we think God thinks about us, how

we engage the world around us, right?

And to me, it's super important and I can track I could tell a whole identity story.

Of various aspects of my kingdom identity that God like was cultivating in me

understanding and revelation step by step.

He didn't blow it all at one time.

He was focusing on one aspect of another aspect and another aspect.

It's like he build me in building blocks and it's like I, my story traject

around along that identity route.

Really?

Yeah.

So let's jump into the time that the, the kingdom thing started coming in, but

I want to tell you I'd like to hit this fairly quickly if we could, because I've

got, about five topics I want you and I to have at least a little conversation on.

So anyway, I've got a bunch of stuff here.

This is not gonna be a two hour podcast, just So y'all know,

So the third step, a bridge story is the abridge story is at this

point, after the second year, I started paying attention to the Lord as it

related to what I was doing in business.

Fast forward into 20 12, 1 of my real estate buddies said, Hey, I

met this woman who I felt like I was supposed to connect you with.

He connected me to her.

She said, I have this client that I feel like I'm supposed to connect you with.

She connected me with her and we hopped on the phone March of 2012.

I knew instantaneously this was like a God connection.

Six to eight weeks after we met, I said to her, Hey, I think we

met for a really specific reason.

She said, I think the same.

She was in South Carolina.

I'm in Florida.

But we prayed about it, came back in a week, prayed about it, came back in

a week, prayed again, and came back.

And that third time she says, God gave me these words.

I put 'em in my journal.

I have no idea what they're about, what it's for.

This had happened months prior to her meeting me and she said,

the words are kingdom driven, entrepreneur, and what flew outta my

mouth, Tim was that's a community.

It's a movement and it starts with a book.

And I didn't even know what a kingdom driven entrepreneur was.

I was a Christian who happened to be a business owner who operated

integrity and the principles of the Bible as best to my ability.

But I didn't know what a kingdom driven entrepreneur was.

And so from there, that point in that March, 2012, that next six

months was an exploration of what is, what are you talking about Lord?

What does this look like?

What does this mean?

How in the world are we writing a book that makes no sense,

but okay Lord, we'll do that.

And it was that over that six months.

So my beginnings of getting an orientation of what it means, not only

what the kingdom of God means, but what does it mean to be kingdom driven?

The beginnings of that was happening then in the process of launching a

community to movement by that name, which is one of those only God stories.

Yeah,

Cuz I w I wasn't the guru coming in with 10,000 of expert

expertise at 10,000 hours of expertise to come show people the way I was

learning, literally as I was going.

And if people wanted to pay attention they could.

And they were, cuz we were all growing.

Cuz a lot of, cuz you couldn't Google Kingdom entrepreneur in

2012 and find something that's not Now it's a popular conversation.

In 2012, it was not a popular conversation.

Christian entrepreneur was a co, was a good conversation.

Faith in work, marketplace, ministry, these terms, these were all terms, but

Kingdom Entrepreneur was not like a thing people were talking about, not

publicly in forums that were platforms and stuff that you could learn from.

And so it was really just sitting with the Lord and with one another.

With Antonina, my co-founder said, what in the world are we doing?

What in the heavens is going on here and what are we doing?

But that was the beginning of the shift for me was Then

Alright, so I may come back to that, but I wanna

get some definitions out of

you got it.

Yeah.

Tell me, you say kingdom, because you get around, you get

outside of church people and they have no idea what we're talking about.

Usually you get around church people, and I joked with people one time I

went to a church and the guy, the pastor said, we're a Kingdom church.

And I would say, what does that mean?

He goes, we're a Kingdom church.

And I went, Yeah.

I get it but I can you gimme a little more?

What does that mean?

And he goes we're kingdom and the rest of 'em aren't.

I'm going, Oh, I don't know.

I need a little bit more than that.

So gived me your definition, and actually I love that you've got a

preview to the guidebook in the back of, I've got my Kindle here is where

I read your book, that you got a preview and you actually give some of

these, but I wanna hear it from you.

What,

Yeah.

and I'm gonna ask about Driven and Entrepreneur

because the word driven has recently popped up in some things I'm doing.

So tell me Kingdom, what is that?

What is that to you?

Yeah.

So I'm talking about the government of God, the realm of heaven.

It's the, it is not a democracy.

It's like this is the territory of God and it has a king, and the king

is Jesus, and it's the king's way.

It's his mind, his heart, his way, and that's it.

So when I think about the kingdom it's simple as that.

And I, I root myself in Matthew 6 33 of seeking first the kingdom of God

and his righteousness, knowing that all things you know are gonna be added.

Yeah.

this powerful scripture for me that that is really almost a foundational

scripture for me because what I recognized in my life is that I kept chasing

the last part of that verse to things representing food, clothing, and shelter.

Instead of seeking first his kingdom and his righteousness, and I had to do a study

on kingdom does the kingdom come after us or do we have to go after the kingdom?

I was like, the kingdom is ever advancing till it's return.

It's like it is here and ever increasing.

And so I'm like, we get to participate in what God's already doing.

We co-labor with Christ to see the advancement of the kingdom.

But to me, I'm like, if I didn't participate, the kingdom

of God is still advancing.

If Shae Bynes is not participating, it's still advancing cuz the Bible said so

whether you're in or not.

so

whether I'm in or not.

tell me about the word driven.

Give me

Yeah.

cause.

I've, I recently did, in fact there are a few episodes back I did Faith Driven

Leader and I actually had some Christians gimme some pushback on that word driven.

Yeah.

enough, some people are uncomfortable with it.

So tell me about the word driven.

Yeah.

I was like, what do you mean?

They go, That sounds too aggressive.

I'm going, yeah,

is very interesting to

I know,

that feedback.

Okay.

So it has two primary definitions.

And so one of them is motivated.

So what's motivating you, right?

And the other is propelled.

And I like this propelled forward.

And so when it was kingdom driven entrepreneur, so we're not gonna define

entrepreneur here, but what's what I'm saying is that your entrepreneurial

endeavors, those entrepreneurial endeavors are motivated by seeing an

increase of the kingdom of God and they're propelled forward by that truth.

Matthew 6 33, seeking first the kingdom of God and his righteousness,

knowing all things will be added.

So it changes your entire orientation.

You're seeking first.

The kingdom.

You're seeking first the kingdom in his righteousness.

All things are added even in the context Yes.

Of your business as well.

And so with that's what that means.

And that's changed the business game for me because business can be

led by, driven by a lot of things.

You could be driven by profits, you could be driven by your emotions.

Bad idea.

You can be Dr, you can be driven by whatever your feelings, your whatever.

But it's no, I'm gonna be led and empowered by the Holy Spirit

and be motivated and propelled forward by the kingdom of God.

That's a different, that's a different life.

That's a different game.

I think You could be driven by fear.

You could be driven

You driven by fear.

what Mama thinks is best for you.

You better do what Mama said.

It's Ooh, I don't know what other people think about you.

Yes, Pride driven by pride and ambition and all the things.

You could be driven by a lot of things.

So the word driven in and of itself isn't the bad word.

It's just but what?

What's the word that's before the what is driving you?

That's what matters.

let's don't, let's don't dive too much into it, but on the

word, entrepreneur is thrown around quite a bit in our culture also.

And at times, sometimes I'm, I can be a little snarky.

This is, I'm just giving a little I should have a little snarky button come up here.

At times, the word entrepreneur to me, because I am one of those

also, is just someone who can't stay focused on one thing very long.

So they're bouncing around, jumping over, trying to find something they

could do and make some quick money.

So

That sound like a hustler to me.

why don't you tell us the real when y'all tie those

together there, give me, gimme just a flavor for entrepreneur

Yeah.

I will from my context, cuz some people also say there's entrepreneur and there's

business owner and they separate the two.

I don't get into that.

To me, if you are offering a product and a service in the marketplace and

you're bringing value in, in exchange, you receive finances for that, you

are settling, marketing, selling a product service in the marketplace.

That's it to me.

You are building a business now, whether there's definitely differences

between how someone shows up in terms of an entrepreneur who's I build

something with the purpose of selling it to move on to the next thing.

But that to me, like that's a serial entrepreneur.

But I could be an entrepreneur and stay in a business for 20 years

and I not consider and not be like, oh, I'm not an entrepreneur just

because I'm here for 20 years.

But if I'm building something, building team and all of those things, I don't

consider that any less of being an entrepreneur than, but some people would.

I think it's one of these words, kinda like a number of things

that can mean a lot to different people and it's possibly been watered down.

I love.

Of how you tie it together with Kingdom and Driven,

What it does see, to me, an entrepreneur is someone who's, their

idea person, they're visionary.

They can start things fairly quickly.

Some, sometimes we need to start 'em slower if we listen to the Lord properly,

but that's a whole nother topic.

yes,

And they're ones that are at the forefront of doing things.

They're leading because they're taking action.

And I think that maybe taking action part is what I see that separates

out, is like kingdom driven people that just sit around and wait for

somebody else to do something.

Then I'll jump on board with them.

No, we're talking entrepreneurs.

They're, these people are gonna, they're gonna go after it.

You have an, you have initiative, you have another level

of initiative to go after and create the thing that's on your heart.

Totally.

Yeah.

Yeah.

All right.

I like that.

All right, so kingdom driven entrepreneur came to be 2012, and

now we could start filling in some of the other parts of the story.

Before I start peppering you with these questions that I've got about, let

me go ahead and give you a glimpse.

I'm gonna ask you about time.

I'm gonna ask you about money.

I'm gonna ask you about confidence versus humility.

I'm gonna ask about having control and where we put our trust is just some

of the stuff that came to my mind.

I don't even know if we're gonna

for all of it.

So my next question, because I think this is where the story goes, is

that once we start dipping our toes into that realm that we call God's kingdom,

Yes.

somewhere along the way we start recognizing that it's got

different rules, it operates differently, and one of the first things that we

notice, Is our greed glands can start getting restrictive to us because

we're sitting here thinking, I need to make me some money to pay my bills.

But I don't think that's what I'm supposed to be thinking about

that much in the kingdom or what.

So let's just go ahead and dive in the deep end.

Okay.

And I want, and I'm gonna ask you a very personal question.

You tell

Sure.

I'm here for

with, what was going on with your personal finances

and with money coming in for you.

I actually think I read somewhere where you almost went to a foreclosure.

we were kicked out of a 6,000 square foot house when I knew more about

a 6,000 square.

more about real estate than most people know and good gracious so you

step into kingdom life is great, right?

That's what the prosperity God, you're into God's kingdom.

So life is good.

Money's flowing in your bank account's full.

Talk to me about that, Shay.

Oh my gosh.

Okay.

So when I left my corporate career, so remember we were, so we had a

real estate business, but it was like residential cash flowing property.

So like a few hundred dollars, a month per property.

Not like a lot.

But we had certainly had equity.

But I was leaving a $96,000 job.

Okay.

When I left, I had a relatively small pension as well as a 401k.

Okay.

Which was intentionally to not to be touched, that wasn't

my intention to touch it.

But anyway so we leave, I go into the business full-time

and on the real estate side.

But then remember relatively quickly after that, I was in that

for two years and so we were fine.

We were fine.

But then when the whole assignment for kingdom driven entrepreneur came

up, I was trying to do all the things.

And what happened was the Lord, one by one was instructing me

to let go of certain things.

And so I was holding onto one last thing.

I had this, so I had stopped doing all the active stuff on the real estate side.

I was stopped consulting, I stopped taking consulting

clients, but I had one thing left.

I was coaching the real estate investing clients of a friend of mine who had a

huge real estate investing business.

And all I had, I didn't have to market it.

All I had to do was show up and coach your students.

And when I said yes and it was almost like immediately when I looked at

that as my source now, because I let go of all of those other things

within weeks, less than a month.

I get an email from her that's just I just had a meeting with my coach.

We were lucky thinking I have the business and da, and I'm thinking, I

don't need as many coaches anymore.

And it's, not personal, I think I'm just gonna work with, the

other guy now, which was a smart decision between the two of us.

And I read that and everything in me wanted to be like the devil is, and I

couldn't even fix my lips to say, to act like this was something against me.

When I heard the Holy Spirit said, that was me, it was like, no, it's

like I heard the Lord say that was me.

Go focus on kingdom driven entrepreneur.

And so from that kingdom driven, l C was making nothing in the beginning

because we didn't, first of all, we didn't know what we were doing.

We had a couple thousand people show up at a Facebook group.

Were like, okay, Lord.

Now what?

How, what's the product?

What's the service?

How are we showing up?

All we had was the book.

We gave that away for free in the beginning.

That's how we got the people there.

Then we were like selling the book, but it was like, okay, it's a book.

We didn't know what our, we didn't have a monetization strategy,

a business model, and nothing.

For months.

So we were making nothing first year, 12 k I think, and revenue.

First year.

Second year, I think 20 something, maybe 30 something thousand.

I wasn't taking anything out.

My co-founder wasn't taking anything out.

We started paying ourselves like a hundred dollars a month at some point,

and then $250 a month at some point.

Everything else was reinvested in.

Like we weren't making we were still figuring out what God was having us doing.

So those, and really if you wanna fast forward, even when we became a six figure

revenue business, that wasn't six figures coming into my personal bank account.

took eight years before.

Personally, I could pay myself more than I was making in my corporate career.

Some people would be like, that's crazy.

And I'm like, but I wouldn't, I don't regret a thing.

I don't regret a thing.

Walking this thing out with God has been the most amazing and awesome.

And even in its challenges, even in its challenges fruitful

adventure that I wouldn't exchange anything for, I really wouldn't.

But no, financially it was like we had some, we had about a two

and a half year period of time.

That was really tough.

Really tough.

That's what you were alluding to that I mentioned in the book about how we ended

up having to short sell our house to avoid a foreclosure, but God even showed

himself strong in that process too.

That's a whole other story.

So it's like we saw God in everything, even in the things that were, the

things that we didn't hope for, didn't want to see, or in a particular

timing that we just didn't expect.

We could still see God in it

Where.

every single step.

Where do you think, and this is one of these hypothetical questions

my wife and I have gone through this exercise multiple times, and I think

it's just to attempt to gain some wisdom and, encourage ourselves some more.

But where do you think you would be spiritually if you had opened

up Faith-Driven entrepreneur.

in 2012?

All of a sudden, six figures starts coming in.

You saw, you had a book that went viral and things like that and it wasn't that.

Long, I call it the quicksand time that I was in from 2008 to 2013 where I couldn't,

the Lord didn't let me do anything.

I couldn't do anything, and I had ideas and thoughts, and then the ideas and

thoughts dried up and it was just, Nope, you and I are gonna work together and

I'm gonna teach you how to do this.

So yes.

ha.

Have you ever thought through the process, the journey you've been

on and what it might look like if things had been different?

I think about the process and the journey a lot and it actually makes

me sad to reflect on the po on something that's, other than what I've experienced.

Like when I think about cuz, which is why I also very, I very transparently

share all the aspects of the journey with folks and I, I let it land where

it lands, cause I want people to know the reality of what it could be.

But at the same time, for them to have never have seen the, they

never saw a difference in me.

They, I was still full of joy, still full of peace, still walking that out,

that in and of itself spoke volumes.

I can't imagine.

Not I actually, honestly, really, I had a conversation with my dad

because remember I told you I grew up in a church and I didn't know

anything about the Holy Spirit.

Just a few years ago, I'm having a conversation with my dad and

I'm having this conversation.

He's telling me all these really awesome stories about it was like the Holy Spirit

moving his life from years and years ago.

And I remember thi I I, I was almost like, wait, how did I

not, how did this not translate?

I wasn't mad, but it was like a disconnect for me.

And I was a little bit sad almost.

It was like, wow, like I can't believe I'm 42 or 43 at the time, hearing this

story on the other end of having walked this out with him for nine years.

But you B but you've got stories from your twenties that I never knew, so I

think about that and I'm like so that te that answers the question for you.

If I'm thinking about that from the missed, what I do believe was missed,

it's how I also feel about what I did miss, from, what I would've missed

if I didn't just go on this adventure with him, which I think it was my early

thirties, is when this all kind of started

and everyone has to go on their own

own

journey.

Darn it.

Your own journey.

There's things which I love mentoring because there's things that you can

get from others and there's things that I can share with others that

helps them along their journey and also helps them to avoid certain things

or to move faster through something that might have taken longer for me.

But it doesn't matter, it doesn't take away from the fact that

every single individual has to do, have their own walk with God.

You have to have your own testimonies with God.

You can't live off of the testimonies of other people.

You have to build your own history with God.

It's At some point you've got you gotta own this thing for, this is

the life that I'm going to live in.

Him and with him.

Sure.

All right, one more, one more little money question than a couple other things

here and we'll get into grace over grind.

Really, all of this is related to

All of it.

Yes.

it all.

It all fits into us trying to control and do things on our own versus relenting,

and allowing the kingdom, God's kingdom to rule and reign in our lives.

Yeah.

But were there times along the way, and if you can share maybe one where

you looked at the bank account or what was coming in and you said to

yourself, because I do think this is an up and down for most people.

I don't think it's just this progression where you said, Ooh and it's probably

may have been a conversation with God.

God I need to step back in and take over.

I need to go.

Make, I need to provide, this is the thing we say a lot, I

need to provide for my family.

We've got, we got bills, we got rent, this house is about to

go to foreclosure or whatever.

Tell me about if there wasn't a time, then I'm gonna be super impressed.

But if there was a time, tell me about it.

And what was that like?

Cuz I, I know that someone listening, going, I can't

picture what that might be like.

What?

How would I get through that?

Yeah.

So there was definitely times where I'm like, man, this has

taken a really long time, Lord.

I would've thought that this would've taken way less time, and it never made me

wanna go backwards, but, It would have me thinking, it would have me like evaluating

and reevaluating and ruminating over my decisions and wondering, oh, I should, I

have made a better decision here or should I have done this here, or so as opposed,

I wasn't trying to take the reins back as much as I would spend mental space.

Trying to evaluate my past, which was not helpful.

I've never want now, mind you, simultaneously, so I'm married.

My husband had already given me the grace for this process.

He had his own journey of what he was, cuz he was then thinking, I've given

my wife the grace she's following the Lord's leading on this thing.

And she's what I always had made way more, brought more, way

more income in our household.

And so now he had that journey because he's I'm giving her the space to walk

this thing out with God, but my massage practice isn't not making that much money.

Like I, I'm just trying to provide for my family.

He'll tells his testimony all the time, I'm just trying to provide for my family.

And the Lord said to him, that's the problem I provide.

I'm the provider.

And got him all the way together.

And so my husband was having those conversations.

I was in a weird head space.

But yet moving forward, and he was in the head space of trying to

like, make some other things happen.

Let me try to make this happen.

Try to make this money happen so that I can give my wife the space to do

the thing that you called her to do.

So we were definitely experiencing that dynamic fi as a family.

It's just showed up for me and Phil differently.

I love that y provide for the family, which is a very I

don't wanna say it's not biblical.

Some people get a little bit been outta shape with this cuz there's a

scripture that says that specifically a man is worse than an infidelity.

He doesn't provide for his family.

Here's The deal.

I don't think we understand what provide for the family means.

Providing for the family is pointing them to where

The actual source.

You are still a resource husband,

Yeah.

So that, no, I gotta provide You better be providing for you.

And listen, I beat myself up a good bit with that.

When we lost homes, I had children that were about to be going to college age

and I'm like going, man, this is rough.

Yeah.

You brought up that you were getting a little impatient with the

process and I, you know who I thought of our man Moses, when you said that.

Who spent 40 years on the backside of the desert before he then came

and then spent 40 years wandering with those complainant people and

then did not see the promised land.

Yeah.

What?

Talk about, you actually made a comment in the book, Grace Over Grind about time.

Yes.

talk about time and why it messes with us and see, I'll say

this and then I'll let you take over.

I, my meditation recently has been, I don't think we truly understand, and

I don't think understand is the Right.

word or try to grasp eternal life.

I don't think we have a concept of it and we think we have limited

time, which then means maybe we don't believe what we've received.

And so we think we're on a deadline and we gotta get it done,

and God's moving slow and Yeah.

God moves extremely slow.

So having said all that, talk about time and why it messes with us in this topic,

Yeah.

Because if you think about and I hope I pronounce these things correctly, but

it's like kronas time, which is, our minutes, our seconds, our hours, our

days, our weeks, our months, our years.

We measure everything in that.

And so we can be driven by that because it's the measurement of.

Earth in which we are functioning in every day.

And as a business person, really doesn't matter if you're a business person or not.

Everyone has they wanna see a particular time.

You've got deadlines around this.

Some of 'em are self-imposed, some of them are real ones.

All of that.

So a lot of our lives are surrounding this importance of that measure,

those measurements of time.

But when you're walking with God and you're operating in Christ, we have a

higher reality of time, which is what you were referring to in this kind of

eternal mindset around time, right?

Or this kairos time, God timing, opportune timing.

His timing where it's like in Ecclesiastes, where there's a

time for everything under the sun.

The whole thing where that, there were so many aspects.

I went to go research that in the scripture, how many times

it said time and it was talking about not our aspect of time.

Like over

and

over again.

It was talking about his time, not our measurements of time.

And so when we engage God in that way and have that as our higher

reality in the midst of stuff, it helps us define that pace with him.

Cuz sometimes that pace is slower.

And I've had seasons where the pace is way quicker and it what could

feel even overwhelming if I was operating just in my own strength.

But because I'm in him, with him, the grace is over that pa, that pace, there's

grace all over that pace for that time.

And and that's in his timing.

And you have those moments that are like, we have slow.

And

then there's a suddenly slow.

And then there's a suddenly and you're like, this wasn't really

suddenly, cuz this was really like, this was like a 10 year suddenly,

Yeah, that's the

but you feel like it's a suddenly because suddenly something

shifts, suddenly something changes.

But ultimately it really wasn't a, suddenly it was.

It was a process that led to a suddenly.

Not saying that there's not like legit subies that just come outta settles.

I'm just saying most of my subies weren't really legitimately settlers.

They just felt like it.

I love.

I'm gonna step on a couple more toes here in the in the Church Circle

worlds that we've come out of, and I love this word breakthrough.

Which I can't find it in the Bible that much.

I do think it's part of our modern vernacular and I think it's

something we convince ourselves.

Most breakthroughs that I've experienced have been about five years in the making

Plus,

Plus,

and they still are, and they're like molasses.

It's like quick saying and I'm like going, and I don't see a lot of

that type thing scripturally now.

I, I do spend a lot more time probably in the Old Testament, cuz I do a

read through the Bible every year

Right.

and there's nothing that happened fast there.

God was extremely patient with those folks.

More patient than you.

And I would've been, I would've been.

They're done.

Done.

Let's start over again.

Oh, we have a covenant.

Darn.

Okay.

But I do think that we have and this is where I think the prosperity,

I think it factors into time.

I think that we have this immediacy.

We expect things and they better be done quick.

And in my lifetime we're gonna see Jesus come back or we're gonna bit

raptured or we're gonna do whatever.

Just, I'm making fun of that a little bit, but I still I

think that time messes with us.

And I love your discussion cuz you talked in the book Grace

Overground about sustainable rhythms.

That's the where I highlighted.

And I really loved that rhythm in seasons versus

Yeah.

by Friday at five, I'm gonna get my house payment and

we're gonna be outta foreclosure.

How many of those days passed by and y'all kept going?

What happened?

Yeah.

Yes, exactly.

But it was just, but I've just seen, I've just seen the goodness

in the process over and over again.

Even even when I go back and reflect on the most challenging two and a half

years of our last 11, there's those very challenging two and a half years when I

reflect on it, I can mine so much gold from those two and a half years that

were, that's important for me for what was next, what I'm in now, or what is to come.

It is I wouldn't, there's things that it was like, I could say it

would've been nice if that worked like that, or that worked like that.

But instead of focusing on that, I focus on what's the goal that I can take from.

That challenge, that series of challenges, that's the going to

inform my future position me built my capacity for what's next or whatever.

And whenever I do that reflection, it leaves me feeling good about moving

forward and how God moved and how I grew in him in the process of that.

So in 2017, you were told or decided, or something happened and

you wrote this book, grace Over Grind,

Yep.

a great title, and it just fits so much into

the, what I've been saying.

Jesus never hustled.

Why should you?

But, so you wrote that book and my guess is, and then you just updated it,

which is the version I read overnight, almost read almost all of that,

which is an awesome book, by the way.

Everybody needs to get it because they need to get the

message of the grace over grind.

But my guess is you did not have that entirely figured

out when you wrote that book.

If so, tell me about that, or if not, tell me about it.

Why did you write the book back then and what's going on with the update?

I.

Yeah I'll tell you that I still don't know everything.

I consider Grace Over Grind a lifestyle upgrade over and over again.

So like I feel like I call my life right now, grace, silver Grind, level

8.0 and that's where I'm at right now.

But I already know that there's a 9.0 at 10.0 and 11.

So I was like, I'm like, I wanna grow in this forever,

so let's make that part clear.

Have not arrived.

Continue to grow in him.

Cause there's always more in him.

Okay, but now going backwards.

So what happened was, so 20 12, 20.

In 2013, maybe six months or so after starting Kingdom Driven

Entrepreneur, I was sitting in church.

Like at this point I was even though I was doing kingdom driven

entrepreneur was still super early.

And I think my concept at that time was more like I'm doing business for God

and for the advancement of the kingdom.

I still hadn't fully, I still had my grind culture in me a bit.

I didn't fully have that with, I had some of it cause I've been experiencing some

of it, but I didn't fully have it, but I was sitting in church and our pastor did

a message on Matthew 1128 through 30 the scripture where Jesus saying, come to me.

All of those who are weary, I'll give you rest.

He talks about his yo is easy and bird's light.

Those are the scriptures.

But he read it in the message and I had never heard it before.

And it says, are you tired, worn out, burnt out on religion?

Come to me, get away with me and you'll recover your life.

I'll show you how to take a real rest.

Walk with me, work with me, watch how I do it.

Learn the unforced rhythms of grace.

I won't lay anything heavy or ill-fitting on you.

Keep company with me and you will learn to live freely and lightly.

Tim, listen to me.

I heard that and was like, My whole soul was like yes.

And amen.

Jesus, show me that because there was a gap between what, how I live and

how I work now, and what I just heard.

And so I need you to show me that.

And that was the beginning.

So that was 2013.

The book showed up about, so about four, four and a half years or so

of walking that out was when I wrote that first book and released it.

And I had to release that book because that fundamentally changed everything.

So it was one thing, it was one thing to have acknowledgement of the

kingdom and then be kingdom driven.

But I could still be really motivated for just doing things for God.

And I'm kingdom driven, I'm motivated, and I'm gonna do this for the glory of God.

And I'm mission driven on the mission of this.

I could've stayed on that path, but think, but you can't actually be a

kingdom driven entrepreneur seeking first the kingdom of God and his

righteousness and not do it with.

Him.

So I thank God for that transition.

But to me, the fully transition happened at that revelation that

six months after that year of six months of what is this Lord?

And then six months into actually walking it out that year, mark that

revelation, that's when I fully entered into this kingdom life, right?

Was in that moment.

And that's why that book's so important to me.

Cause it's a kingdom life message I write up for business owners cuz

that's who I'm called to serve.

it's the same message that I operate in as a mom and as a wife and in everything.

And I get messages from church pastors, Silicon Valley,

employees stay at home, mom.

All kinds of folks are like, I read this book cause someone

told me to read this book.

I read this book and it's changing me.

Why?

Cuz it's a kingdom life message.

It's a kingdom shift.

It is, and I think some people are recognizing, even people

that may not be as air quotes against spiritual or followers of Christ.

I think they're recognizing, I call it the hustle culture.

You call it that hustle and grind culture,

That the mental health is not good, the physical health is not

good and it doesn't work like.

We think it does.

I think it's good if you're trying to sell stuff into people that hustle and grind,

but I don't know that it works that well.

And so I think people are recognizing, and I don't know, they're recognizing

it in the droves that they need to, but that is the transition.

So it's an excellent book, Grace Over Grind.

So thanks for writing that.

Absolutely.

else, what did you do to update it?

You got the new version five years.

I think There's a few chapters you added and a few adjustments and all

because the message is foundational.

Yeah, the message is foundational.

But the reason why I wrote the fifth anniversary edition is

because after I least released the first one, I was noticing a

thread of similarity in the types.

Cause you know, we mentor a community of folks, right?

So I was realizing that people were getting hung up on some

of the same things, or I get the same types of questions.

And I'll tell you that chapter on sustainable rhythms, which was a new

chapter, that was one of them, where it's I consistently got issues, questions,

stuff that led to me writing that chapter.

That was probably one of the, that was a fundamental chapter that I

wrote in response to a whole bunch of questions and roadblocks and

obstacles that I observed and people, or got questions about from readers.

Okay.

So I read, I wrote that one because I felt like I needed to answer.

The issues that people were having as they were walking it out.

And there was things that I grew in.

So even though some of the chapters are not new chapters, there was new things

within those chapters because there's, there is a whole nother layer of another

five years of growth that I've had in it.

One major difference for me, Tim, between when I wrote the first one and

the second one is when I wrote the first one I was like, this is an invitation

from God and we should say yes to it.

And I was in that awe and wonder of the invitation.

When I wrote the second one, I'm like, this is an invitation

to be an awe wonder up.

Aw and wonder about however, it is also what you're called

to in the kingdom of God.

Like this is not like a, oh this is a nice to, this is a nice way to live

if you wanna live that way in the cri.

But I'm saying if you're calling yourself a citizen of the kingdom of God, It

actually is gotta be in him and with him.

And so my, I have a much deeper conviction around the, not only the

invitation, but the call and what you're equipped for, designed for is this life.

So it's a greater conviction for sure.

Yeah.

that there's so many good things to it, and me things going through my mind here.

I tell you what, let's just, maybe in the few minutes we have what I would love for

you to do and I think you do this, you do a lot of myths and facts and truths or

something like that throughout the book, but I'd love for you to give a few, I

don't know if even contrast or the right.

term here but I know there's people listening in that they're all in

that hustle and grind culture or that hustle, culture, whatever you wanna

call it, but they think they're going to church, they're doing all that thing.

They think they're listening to the Lord and all.

that.

And I'm not, we're not judging that.

But I can tell you that I thought until you, you don't know.

I don't even if I said that so give some people some clues that they have not

stepped into that kingdom realm, that they're still over in that hustle realm.

yes, So I'm gonna define terms so that we all

having the same conversation.

So when I talk about grind, I'm talking about a Miriam Webre even

says this excessive hard work.

I'm gonna take it another layer.

Hard in the dictionary means unyielding, excessive unyielding work.

Take another layer.

Doing business primarily in your own strengths to go straight Bible on it.

Okay?

So that's what we're talking about here.

Now, this is very a predominant way for people to move and to work.

So they typically have a lot more anxiety.

They often have, I'll call it prayerlessness.

That doesn't mean that you don't pray, but it's like you have this rhythm of rote

prayers that you have, but you don't have just this ongoing engagement with God.

There's a lot of times you'll have a lack of joy, a lack of peace, a lack

of boundaries, because you think that you're the source and not a resource.

And so you have to make yourself available to all the things, all the time, to

make all the things happen, right?

You may be on team, no sleep, you don't rest enough.

I'm not, I'm talking about physical rest right now.

You don't rest enough.

And sometimes that's motivated, not just because you think that I

have to stay up in order to make it happen, but even those who are like,

but this doesn't feel like work.

I love this so much.

It doesn't feel like work.

You're still working primarily in your own strength and not operating from that

rest and those rhythms of God, right?

And so there's a lot of things, but I gotta tell you that one of the most

prominent ones, Is that anxiety, the analysis paralysis around things like,

I call that the mind grind, where it's like you just can't move forward

cuz you just con you're just, it's constantly going on in your head, is it?

And then when you add God to the equation, you're like, is it God?

Is it me?

Is it a pizza I eight at 11 o'clock last night?

I don't know.

And you're just in this stagnation and just, in that doubt and all of that.

And then also financial anxiety.

I'm overly consumed with what's coming in.

I'm overly consumed with what's not coming in.

I'm overly consumed with what's here, what's there.

And obviously there's a healthy focus we need to have on numbers as a

business person or really as any person.

Money is an important tool in life, but there is such thing.

And it's also a prominent way for people to function that there's an

over, there's an overemphasis that leads to anxiety around the money.

Those are some of the signs.

And if you check your motivations, like what motivates you to do what

you do, you'll find others like, I wanna prove my haters wrong.

Okay.

But then you wanna show you're gonna move.

Move as independently as possible because you wanna prove somebody wrong.

So there's all kinds of things that show up.

Yeah, and I think that anxiety's key.

I found myself in the nineties being proud of the fact that I've

rarely slept and I was operating off my adrenals and stuff like that.

team, no sleep.

farther before you get to Matthew 6 33, there's a scripture, it

might be in the twenties or something, but it says you can't serve two masters.

You can't serve God in mammon.

And I would love for us, this is almost my last question.

We got a couple more, but I would love.

If you've got anything practical, something that someone's

going, I just don't know.

I could put that much trust in God.

I don't know exactly how to do that.

What can I do to move closer to this state of, we didn't get into Sabbath

because I think this is, we're talking about living a Sabbath life.

not like a day of the week Sabbath, but we're talking about being at a

condi, at a position of rest, but give a few practicals for that person

that they're think sooner going on.

I think I'm serving mammon.

I'm not serving God.

I'm serving two masters, but I really want to trust God more.

How can they do it?

Yeah.

Yeah.

So I'm gonna take you to the step one that, that I did that

changed everything for me.

Cause remember I talked about how intimacy with God is everything.

Cause it rooted us in identity.

So the first thing is the focus on cultivating greater intimacy with God.

The way that looks for me, especially since I wasn't focused on inviting God

into the business space, but just in my wife and mom space, is I started

having daily business meetings with God.

So I started engaging the scripture differently and saying, okay, instead

of reading this for achievement, Holy Spirit, make this word come alive for me.

Talk to me about me.

Talk to me about whatever you wanna talk to me about as I engage this word.

Cause I wanna engage the living word while I'm reading this written word, right?

And so I started engaging scripture differently and I started taking my

plans and my thoughts and my to-do list, and I'd surrendered them and I act.

I would actually ask the Lord these are my thoughts.

What are your thoughts?

What do you want?

What's on your heart concerning this business?

What's on your heart concerning?

I started having dialogue with God, which by the way, I hadn't had before.

Let's be clear.

Not on anything around business, other, unless it was, I got a problem, Lord,

help fix it, and then hopefully maybe you'll gimme a strategy so I can fix it.

So I didn't have that engagement of seeking him first, getting

his mind and heart around things and engaging him in that way.

I didn't even have that with reading the scripture because

I was reading the scripture.

I wouldn't say I was reading it for achievement, but in practicality, I

was reading it for achievement, right?

Oh, I read the word today.

So I think that doing, engaging God differently in new ways that you haven't

before is a really important step towards cultivating greater intimacy with God.

Because that's where everything stems from.

Like you can't operate at a rest, which I define as an act

of awareness of his presence.

If you're not engaging in getting awareness of his presence with you.

All the time.

And so just practicing that with him for me, just creating a rhythm

of practicing, just my awareness of his presence with me by engaging

him differently was with foundation that everything else was built on.

So I'm always like, so I tell the business people, I'm like, start having

daily business meetings with God.

Like act just like you would put meetings with other people, have daily business

meetings with God and not just so that you can have your checklist of things.

Look, I'm gonna pray for my clients.

I'm gonna do, I'm gonna do that, but actually give him some space to create

an agenda in your time together.

So don't even go into that with I've got my blueprint for how I should have a daily

business meeting with God, but actually allow the openness of the space and the

relationship development in that space.

And it might feel super awkward for you when you do it.

And I'd say keep doing it anyway.

And then take a step in faith based off of, in a step in faith

based off of the things that you believe he's revealing to you.

I, the reason I really like that is that you use terminology

business meeting instead of prayer meeting, or, because it, it's what?

It's the language that many people listening in will understand.

They have business meetings all the time.

Probably have too many meetings, but they've

No, probably

All the time.

Why not have one with the creator of the universe, that one that created you

when he's more than willing to do that.

I, that's that relationship that so many of us, we like, we want all the stuff,

those things at the end of Matthew 6 33, but we aren't willing to seek first the

righteousness and that Kingdom of God.

So incredible.

Great book, Grace Over Grind.

Shae, tell us where to find you, the book, other stuff.

We'll try to include it down in the notes, but just let people know.

And then I've got one more question before we wrap

sure.

You can go to GraceOverGrind.com and you can get the book there.

It's on Amazon.

You can get in paperback, Kendall, or audio.

So you can get that there.

And you can find me Shae Bynes on Facebook, Instagram.

LinkedIn wherever you are.

I'm not on really, I'm not really active on TikTok, but you can find me

on LinkedIn, Facebook, or Instagram.

But grab Grace Over Grind, GraceOverGrind.com or

go directly to Amazon?

Thank you Shae.

I've still got about 20 questions asked, but I don't have good time for this.

We need more time.

I need a rhythm.

I need a better time rhythm to do the things that the Lord would have me to do.

We are seek, go create those three words, Shae.

And we used one of the, we actually used multiple words there

throughout this conversation.

I'm gonna play little game here and I'm only gonna tell you, you could take,

pick one of those over the other two.

Just that resonates more with you, means more to you at this

particular time, during this season.

Which word is it and why?

Yeah, at this particular time it is definitely seek and why,

because I'm on the other side of not being the c e o of the company

of which I co-founded, and God's revealing new areas for me to walk in.

And so I'm having to, I feel very much like I did many years ago

where it's like, Ooh, this is new.

Oh, this isn't my expertise.

Oh, this is, and walking these things out with him and seeking his mind and heart

concerning the new areas and spheres of influence that he's calling me into.

So definitely seek for show.

I love that seek, because it fits in with what you said.

Have the business meetings.

That's almost the seek portion of that is

that you've got to seek and spend time there.

Shae Bynes, thank you so much for joining us on Seek GoCreate.

What a great conversation.

I want to keep having it, but also wanna watch our time here.

I highly recommend if you've listened in number one, go

get the book Grace Over Grind.

Excellent book.

Everyone needs it.

Second thing I'm gonna recommend is that I believe that you need to

share this episode with someone.

Someone needs to hear this.

The best way that people get exposed to podcasts is by someone

personally recommending it.

So take a screenshot or if you're watching on YouTube or doing anything

like that, Share it, text it to 'em and say, you need to listen to this

person, Shea, and this guy Tim in the RV that was asking questions.

You need to listen in on this and and make sure that they hear what we have to say.

So share this.

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This is your host, Tim Winders.

Until next time, continue being all that you were created to be.