00:00:07 Sana: Someone works hard. Okay, let's just imagine you're working very hard. You are taking the right actions. But then still the results. They simply do not come. And then you're not able to figure out. Understand why? Why is it like that? I'm very sure it has happened with many of you because it has also happened with me or, or um, another scenario. Um, you have finally achieved what you were chasing. Maybe it's a promotion or maybe it's that raise, or maybe it's that, you know, educational degree or maybe you know, anything, anything in your life, not only professional, but maybe personal. Um, but then instead of relief, The pressure stays exactly where it was. Well, this is for today's episode. We explore why both of these experiences. They might be pointing at some something. It's a it's a kind of a hidden thing. But before we get to explore that.

00:01:17 Sana: Welcome back, dear listeners to the Mindful Living Show. I am Sana, and today listeners, I'm sitting with someone who is a physician scientist and the creator of money and business mapping. Her background spans medicine, neuroscience, entrepreneurship, and humanitarian work with the United Nations in Sudan. So let's get started on this very, very interesting conversation, listeners, and let's welcome our guest doctor, Siobhan Ewert. So Sheila, welcome to the show. And it is such an honor, such an honor.

00:01:53 Siobhán Ewert: Thank you so much, Sana. I'm really happy to be here, Especially because usually I get invited to podcasts focused on finances and business, which which I love. But you know, my work goes far beyond money and business. So I'm very happy to be here with you today and explore what is behind that the nervous system, architecture, mindfulness, etc..

00:02:16 Sana: Mhm. Well, and I absolutely. That's why, you know, I find it so fulfilling, uh, to, uh, have these conversations, especially on the mindful living. I do have a business podcast show, so I'll definitely invite you for that. But anyway, let's stick with our topic and discussion for today because, um, I don't know whether it's a coincidence or not. And I think that's why it happens with so many of us, because this is exactly what happened with me a few years back when I was, you know, trying to chase a promotion. I did get it. Nothing changed. It went worse. It went worse.

00:02:56 Siobhán Ewert: Yeah.

00:02:57 Sana: So, before we, we get into the mapping, the main discussion, I would love all of our listeners to hear your story directly, Siobhan because you come, as you mentioned, medicine, neuroscience, and then humanitarian work in Sudan and of course, entrepreneurship. So tell us how that path led you here.

00:03:18 Siobhán Ewert: Thank you for that question. And you know, Sana, while I was moving through those fields, I didn't had a didn't have a plan in mind. I was just moving. Something was propelling me forward. And the eternal question that I had was, why do we decide the way in the way that we do? Why do we make decisions that harm us actually or harm harm others? Where is that coming from? And then of course, um, when we look at the world globally, the world is a product of collective decisions, which in in turn are individual decisions. So I just always wanted to understand the world, and I kind of knew that to understand the world, I needed to understand how individual decision making is, is being done. And that led me down the road to understand the role of perception. And we can't understand how perception functions if we don't understand the nervous system. So it was only when I was looking more closely at the nervous system, that I could actually find an answer that would finally satisfy me in my never ending quest to find an answer to my initial question. And you know, I moved from medicine to neuroscience to business to, to entrepreneurship to humanitarian work, because I was exactly looking for the answer for that question. And, um, I just could couldn't find it. I never found an answer that would actually satisfy me. And that was causal in almost all of the areas we were treating symptoms right? We weren't treating the causes. And I wanted to understand the cause behind our actions.

00:05:04 Sana: Mhm. No. I think, uh, I think, uh, this is actually a very, very interesting, and a very crucial question. because, I think it helps and I, you know, it's kind of a selflessly that you just, did not think that, why it happens or this is happening with me or to me, but why exactly collectively why or how the world works. And I think, it's not about just the, neuroscience or the environment, but there are so many factors working together because I think we are only stuck with a very, uh, cookie cutter kind of thing that, okay, you work hard, just just like I was told in my childhood. Work hard, get good grades, and, your life will be all great and you'll be successful. And, when probably that doesn't happen. You, most of the times you wouldn't want to share that with with other. And you would like to start getting into that judgmental, you know, cycle, that very vicious cycle. And it overall affects, even if actually in the hands. I mean, if we see overall, it also affects your growth, your performance, and it affects your confidence as well. And, that's what, we'll definitely understand in the, in the subsequent, parts of the conversation. But then when when did you first notice that following you from one field into the next. Was it a very personal moment or, um, in your work or different, you know, aspects you were seeing examples happening? Um, you mentioned about the humanitarian work as well. So was it like collectively you saw this pattern occurring in every field or was it a specific field?

00:06:56 Siobhán Ewert: I think in every field, what I saw collectively is that we don't seem to address the causes. We seem to patch up the symptoms, be that in medicine, be that in humanitarian aid. Um, science was more geared towards finding causality, but I still wasn't fully satisfied in science because I felt like I was only thinking with my mind and I could see, I could feel that there's more to me than just my, my mind. And I wanted to understand what there else is than just my conscious mind. So, um, yeah, I think the, the common denominator for me was what is the cause here, you know?

00:07:40 Sana: No, it is, it is. And I don't think it is surprising. I don't think it is surprising. I mean, I, I kind of started to have this question when I, you get into that adulting phase, you look back and you start thinking, does it work like this only? But then, it's not a single insight that came from one profession. Um, and the, the, I kind of, you know, see the misconception here that we have been, in fact, on many episodes on the mindful living and on this blend, my business podcast and then other discussions as well. Uh, we have only like barely scratched the surface here that okay, let's say in medicine, we just try to suppress the symptoms. We do not get to the root cause or we just like to would like to put up a bandaid, but then it followed you through the medicine crisis work business, which, uh, is something, you know, it is something about how people function everywhere, regardless of the setting they're functioning.

00:08:44 Siobhán Ewert: Mhm. Yeah, I think so too. Yeah.

00:08:51 Sana: Okay. And, uh, Siobhan let's now, um, touch upon what I started with. So, um, I, kind of painted a quick picture in the introduction. so we'll first start with the first, the first one, the result gap. And I'm very sure, as I recognized myself in that many of our listeners, almost every one of our listeners, they will recognize themselves in that, like, where someone knows what they want and it's taking action, but then the results are not coming. So can you walk us through that in detail? Like what exactly is happening underneath it?

00:09:29 Siobhán Ewert: Yes, exactly. As you said, I call this the result gap. And most of the people who come work with me experience this result gap. Um, so again, like you, like you just described so succinctly, you put in the effort, you work extremely hard and the results are not coming. And this can be so frustrating. It induces self doubt. Um, it induces comparison. But why is it working for others and not for me. You know, you may deduct that there's something wrong with you. Um, so this can be a very kind of painful state to be in. And so everything I am disclosing here comes from my mapping from immediate experience, um, from working with clients as well as from my own life. And I can talk about that a bit later. How, uh, how I experienced the result cap, um, before I had a name for it. Right. So the result cap, um, what happens in the result cap is let's say, for example, you create, you want to create your own business, right? Um, and let's say you have the right strategy because of course not getting the results you want can be, can also be a strategy problem. It can be a problem of you don't have enough expertise or yet, right? You can learn that or you're not addressing the right audience. Okay, so these are all conditions of why results might not come in, but let's assume all of this is, um, arranged in a way that would technically bring you success. Let's assume the strategy you choose makes sense and it's the right one for you, for the product, for the audience. Then still we see so many people experience the result gap. So here I would invite, um, someone who is experiencing this so-called result gap to look inside yourself. And what I see happening inside the people that I map is that they experience something that I call the double blind. They experience two consecutive blindnesses. Um, the first one is I don't see or I can't see how I'm interfering. I can't see my own pattern of how I'm, um, keeping the results away or not actually, um, creating the clean action that would bring the results. So the first blindness is the how. I don't know how I'm doing. I'm not creating the results. We will go into examples in a moment. And then the second blindness, and this is the blindness that is kind of crucial. That makes us feel so frustrated. It makes us look in all the wrong places is, I don't know that I'm interfering at all. I don't know that I am keeping those results away. It can either be, um, kind of passively keeping them away by not taking the action or not executing cleanly that would actually bring those results. Or I am actively keeping the result away. I'm actively keeping the consequences of that result away. And this second blindness, I don't know that I'm interfering at all. It's like we have, um, yeah, we become blind. We don't see that we are the variable that needs to be changed, that needs to be looked at in order to create the desired results. Does that make sense? Before we go into a concrete example.

00:13:05 Speaker 4: Absolutely, absolutely.

00:13:07 Sana: Especially, the second one that I don't know that I'm interfering in that I don't think it's not only about that you are extremely self-aware or you do not have ego or. But you know, it kind of comes. It's not just about the mind or the brain, but it's also coming from within that. Yes. Why it why it isn't working? Why am I not getting the expected results here? I am not able to understand, and I want to be empathetic here because I know that's a very, very, um, it's a very helpless, um, place to begin. Yeah. It's place to be. Yeah.

00:13:50 Siobhán Ewert: It's, it's, it is definitely. I have been in that place for more than three years. I burned through my, uh, finances, my financial buffer. Um, it's, there's a lot of pressure on you if you are in, in that state and you just don't know where to look, you just don't know how to get yourself out of that state. And then of course, you have, um, all the external pressure of which you were talking initially. You know, society peers and simply the need to earn money to survive. So I totally agree. This is a very painful and, um, very pressure filled experience and state to experience. Yeah.

00:14:31 Speaker 4: Absolutely. Absolutely.

00:14:33 Sana: And then, you know, after this, um, yeah, I think, I hope we didn't digress. So yeah. Go ahead.

00:14:39 Siobhán Ewert: Yeah. So, so just to look beneath the surface. So this is what's happening basically on the, on the surface level, kind of, I don't, I can't see how I'm interfering. And I don't know that I'm interfering at all. That's what I call the double blind. Now, why would we interfere at all? And this is where it gets interesting. And this is where it gets different from system to system. But in general, what is happening in the result gap? And when your nervous system is basically Quote unquote, protecting you from those results is because somewhere in your system, the consequences of your desired results are assessed as being unsafe. So for example, if you want to build a business and you have to become visible for that, but visibility was encoded as being unsafe, usually in early childhood, then subconsciously your system will protect you from executing those actions that would bring you visibility.

00:15:45 Speaker 4: For, for example.

00:15:47 Sana: Um, you know, let's say as a founder, um, you are, you want, you want to stay behind the curtains, you do not want to expose much about yourself. So probably it will reflect, um, in your, uh, marketing strategies or sometimes, you know, how you can be more, uh, connected with your, uh, board members or team members or your peers. Yes, exactly.

00:16:13 Siobhán Ewert: Yeah. Or another example is, um, holding power was unsafe. I have, I was mapping this, uh, client that I had, um, some weeks ago and somewhere in her system, she encoded very early in very early childhood that being a woman and holding power, um, basically doesn't work. So the feminine can't hold power. So for her, the hidden conflict that was driving a lot of her actions was either I chose my essence, which is feminine, or I hold power. Right. This was a hidden conflict she wasn't aware of. So again and again, she chose her essence because she didn't want to self abandon. But that meant she couldn't be successful in her business because to be successful in her business, she needed to hold the power to become visible, to put out offers, to stand behind her offer to hold structure, etc.. Um, so it was remarkable as soon as we brought this hidden conflict to light. Of course, the mapping happens in a very safe container, and this client could immediately see that this premise isn't true for her anymore, and her system could recognize the old way of functioning, which is, you know, a woman can't hold power. And at the same time, she could recognize that there's no real threat here anymore. If her system would choose to hold power and stay connected with her essence. So in that moment, her her system reorganized around what is true for her, what was true for her in that moment, which is, yes, a woman can absolutely hold power in a feminine way, in a masculine way. It does not negate a feminine essence. So two weeks later, one week later, even I got a text from her, uh, telling, telling me that she has taken up her business again. And just recently she messaged me. She's sending out offers, etc.. So this is a wonderful thing where, um, just recognizing in safety that's very important. The system needs to be safe. Recognizing how what has been running your system or basically your operating, um, what's the word, uh, operating system, you know? Yeah. What? So what happened in your system and why? So her system was trying to protect her from from rejection and abandonment. Um, will help you will help you make your system legible. And then automatically that that's what I see in my mappings, at least automatically. The system without effort seems to update to what is true for you now. So that's just one example of how we actively what the self-help world calls self sabotage. I don't like that word because it kind of blame on ourselves. It's really more, you know, the protective function of, of our of our system, of our subconscious. So that's, that's one example of the result gap and how it can be, um, subconsciously carried out.

00:19:21 Speaker 4: Um.

00:19:23 Sana: I really, really appreciate because it's such a clarifying example and I kind of, um, find myself, uh, not the exact example, but, uh, you know, kind of a parallel in there where, um, and I'm, I'm very sure, uh, these can all be traced back to your childhood experiences, uh, the pressures, external pressures specifically. Um, and for example, um, something which worked in your childhood and you got the desired results and you knew that, you know? Oh, yeah. My parents are so happy after seeing that performance. And, you know, they are so, so, you know, that's putting everything at risk, you know, in order for me to be successful in life. Um, and then once you grow up and probably things are not looking that great, um, you, you kind of, you know, start having a lot of, um, um, I think, um, confirmation biases or we just want to, you know, as exactly you, um, explained, you know, the system starts predicting, you know, for, for example, um, I'll put this in the context of competition. Now in my childhood, it was always this, my aim was to every year you have to be at the top of your rank in the entire class. Um, and that was, you know, it was consecutively for ten years, but eleventh and twelfth year onwards. And then, you know, subsequently it didn't happen. But that um auto, uh, you know, triggering that, uh, why this, you know, my ex, you know, call not call it, sorry, my ex classmate or maybe my friend with whom I'm not right now in touch. Now they have become more successful than I am. But I used to be such a great, you know, um, I used to have a great performance, uh, to, uh, get great scores. You know, much better than this friend. Then why am I not able to do that? Means am I a failure? And then, um, it kind of, you know, uh, creeped in and it hurts you at the core. It hurts you at the core, and then your nervous system instantly tells you, okay, just forget everything, forget your sleep, food and everything. Start working hard. You have to make sure that now, you go ahead. Um, maybe, you know, you do not want to prove your worth to that friend. Um, but then it's kind of, you know, it's satisfying that, okay, I've done something great and I'm, I, I start like expecting a lot of that in the future. It's going to happen.

00:22:16 Siobhán Ewert: Oh, can you give me an example?

00:22:19 Sana: Oh, so I just, you know, for example, let's say now I've realized that my friend, he, they are, um, very successful. They are much more successful than me. Okay. So I get that instant, um, trigger within me that, um, okay, maybe I have to work more harder. So I just, um, you know, kind of put aside everything. Uh, maybe I make a plan or I just do a quick analysis of what is happening and what I need to do. And then it kind of gives me that, you know, uh, never ending energy to start working on something to make sure that I'm more successful than that friend. It's kind of, you know, like this feeling within you and you want to keep that within you, but it just gives you that, um, satisfaction, that relief.

00:23:10 Speaker 4: Um.

00:23:11 Siobhán Ewert: Okay, now I understand, sorry, I, I, I, I just, I was just lacking the one logical step. Okay. Um, so can I, can I ask you something about that?

00:23:21 Speaker 4: Yeah.

00:23:22 Siobhán Ewert: All right. Two questions actually. How do you feel when you push through? How do you feel when you stop eating? Stop sleeping? Uh, that's the first question. The second question is that competitive edge, that competitiveness, how much relief does it give you? How long lasting is this relief?

00:23:42 Sana: Hardly. Maybe twenty four hours. Not more than that. My body gives up after that. Because I have, uh, gone through, uh, burnout, not short days of burnout where and that, you know, that particular phase where I didn't even care about my, uh, body or my eating or sleeping, uh, it went for almost one, one and a half years where I was, um, excruciatingly, I mean, you know, putting a lot of effort, just having hardly two or three hours of sleep. It was during, uh, Covid, during the pandemic, lockdown. Um, I got what I wanted to achieve, but then my body gave up because, um, no lack of nutrition, lack of sleep, uh, no rest. And, um, it affected everything from all aspects. It did affect me.

00:24:35 Siobhán Ewert: Yes. Yeah. So this is a pretty complex. Um, I would love to talk to this before I do. Do you have any specific question here that I can address first?

00:24:49 Sana: Um, question as in with regards to the example that I gave or what you explained.

00:24:55 Siobhán Ewert: Um, any question for me based on the example you just gave based on your own experience? Um.

00:25:02 Sana: Um, I think one question I would like to have is, I think, because right now we are having, um, a lot of discussions We are trying to understand why is exactly like this. Is it, uh, very, uh, personal specific or is it, you know, how they are? Or is it the way, um, they're, uh, no childhood experiences. So normally what I've seen is it can all be connected back to their childhood. Um, so do you think she wanted that? You know, everything is connected to what we have experienced or how we have been brought up, the environment that we have been in, um, maybe genetics as well. And that's what I wanted to actually understand right from the beginning.

00:25:50 Siobhán Ewert: Mhm. Oh, that's a very broad question. And to be honest, I can only deliver a little piece of, again, my professional expertise, my professional experience, which is usually what happens when I meet people is they produce at some point when we go through the architecture of their nervous system, which is basically just their inner organization. Um, and we go deeper and deeper and we hit certain ingrained fears. Mhm. Then usually what happens is that that person would produce a very specific spontaneously without me asking, because in the mapping, we don't go into the past, we just map what is happening in the present moment. Um, but that usually what happens is that the client will then reproduce or produce spontaneously a very specific childhood memory where this pattern may be originated or where it just became very obvious to the child that there's a threat that I have to protect against. That's the whole or a big part of the nervous system is simply protecting against threat. And, um, what again, what the nervous nervous system likes to achieve is predictability. It wants to collapse uncertainty. Um, now, before I go on, on this thread, just to answer your initial questions, epigenetics, genetics, etc., I'm not an expert here. Absolutely. I'm sure those play a big role. Um, but for the mapping and for the spontaneous reorganization that I see in clients, uh, these, I don't have to answer these questions in the sense that the mapping and the natural reorganization works without diving into childhood, without diving into genetics and epigenetics. So this is something where I simply can't deliver, I apologize.

00:27:43 Sana: No, no, I really, really appreciate it because I think, that's, that's why we are having this discussion on the mindful living because, um, we're talking about the present right now and the way forward. Of course, you know, you want to understand the patterns or the experiences, but, then, uh, I think it's more and more important to focus on the present as well. Um, so I'm really glad you shared that we clarified that. And I think, you know, we have just thirty minutes, so it wouldn't be even justified for me to ask such a broad question here. but I think, I think, I, I would urge our listeners to maybe think about it. But yeah, let's, let's get back to, the next part, um, the arrival gap. And also you mentioned about, I guess, you were in this specific, especially the result gap in that position for three or four years.

00:28:41 Siobhán Ewert: Mhm. Yeah. Three and a half. Yeah.

00:28:43 Sana: Three and a half. Um, if you can share a bit about that and then, you know, we can, uh, come to a rival gap.

00:28:49 Siobhán Ewert: Yeah, absolutely. I'd love to. So in twenty twenty, I quit my job at the United Nations and I sold my company, which I had co-founded in twenty twelve. I sold it to my co-founder. Um, and so, you know, I had a kind of a buffer of money and I thought, you know, within one year I have a business up and running. But what happened exactly like you also experienced is that a massive burnout, massive burnout set in. And it's, it wasn't it didn't come as a surprise. Uh, two days after I finished my medical degree. I started this company. Um, we launched the same year. Then I went back. Oh, sorry, I forgot actually. Yeah. I went into business counseling. Also had to pass through those assessment centers, self-studied business, etc.. So the point is for every two years I changed careers. Um, and I was working at top level organizations, which, which I wanted to, because I wanted to understand the systems and the minds working at those top level organizations like Charité in Berlin or Harvard or the United Nations. Um, so I was just pushing myself beyond all my limitations, you know, similarly to you. And then of course, the two years in Sudan were incredible, but also incredibly heartbreaking seeing the peaceful revolution happen, but also understanding so much about, uh, exactly what decision making actually does on a global scale or what, what I would call today. Decisions based on survival perception, survival logic, actually due to a world and due to other people. And it was just heartbreaking. Um, so I left the United Nations heartbroken. So then I went into retreat and like I said, I thought, um, within a year or so I would have my next business up and running. That didn't happen. Uh, instead I just totally crashed. I crashed physically, I couldn't sleep anymore. I could only sleep with sleep medication. And of course, I wanted to wean myself off of that. Not every night, but every other night. Um, I burned through my finances, mainly investing in my business and investing in incredibly expensive business containers because I thought, well, if I learn from the best and those with the biggest results, then I will, um, just learn the skill of building a business. Um, I didn't, and that was when I started to experience the results. I was trying to build my second business, which was based on coaching, um, mindfulness meditation, etc. uh, and I just couldn't get it off the ground and I burned through my, uh, financial buffer that I had. And so I crashed, I crashed on every level. I crashed emotionally, I crashed cognitively. That was very scary. I felt like it was such a deep exhaustion coming up from my system that I just couldn't move. And it wasn't just exhaustion. It was also a lot of trauma from childhood experiences. So, um, again, a very personal sharing, but, um, my body needed to hold all of this. I was also doing a very intense spiritual practices, which were putting even more pressure on my system. And then I was crushing financially without really the ability to work because I couldn't get myself out of bed really because I was so exhausted. That was an exhaustion that wasn't even sitting in my bones. I would almost say it was sitting in my soul, if that's even possible. It felt like this is beyond repair. So it took me years to bounce back from that. Luckily I have and, um, in all those years again, I, of course, I wanted to make money and I wanted to bring my gifts into the world. I wanted to contribute. And at the same time, I just knew I cannot go back into any of those systems. So that's when I experience the result in a very, very painful way. I was trying to get my business off the ground and it just didn't work. And it didn't bring the return of investment that I had done, you know, the twenty, thirty whatnot, thousand euros that I had invested on business counseling and coaches and whatnot. There was just no return of investment. And no one could answer my question of why isn't this working? And I saw other people left and right for whom it wasn't working either. So I just wanted to solve this. What's what's actually happening here? And, um, and it's so interesting that for me at least, I found my answer to that question. Why isn't working for why is our things not working for me? When I discovered the role of the nervous system, the role of perception, the the role of how the nervous system is organized around protecting us from certain consequences. And then interestingly, this was also the key to decision making. This was the key to a lot of things in medicine that I saw that we can't we have difficulties treating, um, a lot of things of, you know, all the things that we see in the world that seem to go wrong. Um, and of course money in business, so too, this is a very long way to answer your question, but my own experience with the result was that visibility for me was encoded with is it specifically holding power? Holding power while being visible was encoded was encoded with um, basically survival level fear or terror. So how and I didn't, I didn't know that it was buried so deep down inside me. So, um, how that played out as a result gap in my business was that, um, every six months or so I would show I would pivot in my business. I would abort an old product that I was offering and reinvent myself and reinvent a new product. And I was thinking, you know, people will see my reinvention. So from my to my own conscious perception, I was looking very, very busy to myself. And I was I was very busy. I was very hard working. But what I couldn't deny was that the results weren't coming in. People weren't buying money wasn't coming in. I was, like I said, crushing financially. So it was only when I started to look at the nervous system that I could see, oh, hang on, I was pivoting. I was changing my offer every six months. And precisely because the consequences of being out there, guiding someone, especially bringing out my own perception, was so scary to my nervous system that subconsciously my system was consistently pushing me forward, something that I had known very well, you know, from my past. Always pushing, pushing, pushing through, being busy, never resting. Um, and it was always pushing me to pushing me to reinvent myself so that my audience always be entertained. That's what I, that's the story I told. I was telling myself in my head. Right. But, um, as a business, that's something really bad that you can do because then people don't trust you. You don't build relationships with your customers and people don't know what you stand for and what they actually what they can buy from you, you know, which problem you actually solve. Um, so that's why I wasn't just passively not creating the results that I wanted to see. I was actively, um, confusing my audience, if you will, you know, so this is, this is, and again, I, this was all invisible to myself. And, um, I, you cannot change what you can't see if there's an invariable, sorry, an invisible variable in the equation, you just cannot target it. So once I saw this and once I started mapping myself, I'm like, oh my God, now I understand the last three or four years. And then I started applying this to other people and they had the same effect, you know, like incredible effects of just from one day to the other, things clicked. They see things differently. Um, the, how their nervous system was organized around threat. Suddenly the threat was recognized in all safety as no longer present. And the capacity that was bound in, in, uh, in protecting the system against that threat is freed. This is also something that I see in every single mapping. There's a somatic answer from the body, somatic activation, such as heat or sweating, or people start to move their body or tears. Um, that shows me the system is going from shutdown back into activation. And in other words, capacity is being freed. Capacity that was tied up in US nervous system protection, protecting the system from the outcomes of the results. Uh, so yeah, that's another massive side effect of those mappings. Or just recognizing your system doesn't have to be in these mappings. It can be in any, you know, any way you start recognizing your system and your system becomes legible to you. Capacity is being freed. So I'm going to stop here because I know we have limited amounts of time.

00:38:22 Sana: I wish we could have gone on and on because this is so, so true. And I'm very sure every one of our listeners, they're finding at least one piece of themselves and especially, I think, it's, it's actually a very, um, it's jarring to, to know that and, the pressure, it's excruciatingly painful. Um, one thing which I would like to ask, and probably I think this will be the best place to at least, you know, wrap up the first conversation because there are so many coming up. So, um, so, um, when you realized, because I think, um, any of these discussions and in this specific context, when you are aware that this is the problem, um, I think that's almost half the battle won. Now the next stage is what exactly will do the next, you know, whether you, um, uh, you know, we have so many, so many options, you read books or you listen to podcasts or you try to have a coach or, um, when you go through a program, you mentioned that, you had the access to all, the, the kind of the biggest, most successful people in your circle who had achieved and you were, uh, you had reached out to them. But after you got to understand this, what exactly did you do the next? And, um, what would you advise, to that listener who is right now recognizing themselves in this, but they don't have any clue because right now we have a lot of information, lot of resources available. but then not sure what exactly will work or what not. And once again, you know that this leads to them getting into another vicious loop.

00:40:18 Siobhán Ewert: Yes. Yeah. That's such a good question. because that's the thing, right? What works for one person doesn't work for the other person. that's that's why I think, you know, mindfulness can bring us to the point where we stop and we pause and we actually get into connection with our system. We allow the possibility that the answer lies within us. And I don't mean this in a philosophical sense, although I do think that's true too. I mean this in a very practical sense. How, you know, having heard about the result gap, having heard about the double blindness now. Okay, let's have an honest assessment here. How is it possible that I am so-called self-sabotaging? Is it possible that results are coming because of some subconscious action that I'm doing? And and then the idea would be to slowly, slowly make your own system legible to you. And that can only happen in safety. So safety is the prerequisite for that. And of course, safety comes through mindfulness. Safety comes through slowing down. Safety comes through. Finally listening to your own body. You know, you mentioned that you were kind of living up to other people's expectations. And then you also mentioned that you were pushing through enormous effort, which ensued enormous exhaustion. Right? So here making a taking a pause, breathing, connecting with your body, asking, is this really what I want? You also mentioned that you achieved what you wanted to achieve, but there was no real relief, right?

00:41:57 Sana: Yeah.

00:41:58 Siobhán Ewert: Yeah. Yeah, exactly. So I know we have to wrap up. So let me just leave our audience with the following. And again through mindfulness, pause and then look and see. Can you check, can you see a result gap in your life? So for example, is there an area in your life where you put in enormous effort and the results don't come the desired results, right? Or is there a moment or moments in your life where something that you so deeply wanted came. And it did not bring you sustainable relief. It did not bring the satisfaction, the fulfillment that you thought it would bring. Right. So just pause and look. And when you find, um, one of these moments, say you, you are looking for a specific result gap. Now sit and really look at yourself with compassion, with safety, with self love and and check where has something sorry. Just check what do you actually do? Mhm. Um, to create those results is your execution um, clean or do you deviate. Do you, for example, water down your message? Do you not reach out to the people that you should be reaching out? Do you postpone launches? Um, you know, do you deviate from the strategy in a way that you don't actually actively recognize, but you could recognize if you just slow down and look from a place of safety or again, um, with the so-called arrival gab, um, is there is it difficult for you to receive? Is it difficult for you to allow, like to stop and allow that which you actually have achieved to really register in your nervous system? Because if we are afraid of slowing down, if we are afraid of taking a break, then often what happens is that what we actually work for so hard it doesn't reach the nervous system. So the nervous system doesn't update itself out of a state of lack. It still operates from a state of lack, right? So when we pause and we give our system, um, the opportunity to actually receive, to actually somatically register that the result is here, you know, my actions work. The result is, is here. I'm allowed to enjoy. I'm allowed to arrive. I'm allowed to take a breather. And that's when the nervous system can actually update. That's why some, you know, some some people in the self-help scene say it's so important to celebrate. And from a nervous system perspective, celebration is the conscious registration that the result is here that you can rest, you can pause. So I'm gonna I'm gonna leave you with this. Sana.

00:44:50 Sana: You are infinitesimally right. Um, I think that is something, I didn't used to do it at all, but I, I'll be very thankful because sitting down with and, I think, um, this is what I always try to express my gratitude towards because, um, sitting down with people miles away across and finding that, my goodness, I'm not alone. And this is exactly what is happening. And people, they are trying to understand what is the reason they're trying to find the solutions. Um, this is not a very, local or very restricted to a specific person. And that is why it has made me more conscious. That doesn't mean, once again, uh, going to a pushback that, okay, that means, you know, so now you are saying that, you know, we shouldn't work hard or we should frequently celebrate and, you know, do not worry about the results. No, not at all. Not at all. I think that is why, um, it is very important to, you know, have that compassion towards yourself. And um, and I think that also reflects on, uh, you know, towards others as well. Um, otherwise I believe that, you know, we are performing like, you know, uh, ma different personalities or having a mask or a facade where.

00:46:22 Siobhán Ewert: And also, you know, just again, to bring in that self-compassion also from a nervous system perspective, performing, wearing a mask is serving specific roles that are important for us, for our survival, for our belonging, etc. again, from a nervous system perspective. So once we understand this and it becomes conscious and legible, we then have a choice to release that or to keep it. So it is not to, you know, to devaluate the roles or the mask that we carry.

00:46:54 Sana: Totally. so I think this was one of the most, thoughtful, very, very in-depth and very engaging conversation for me. I, I absolutely found a lot of value and I'm very sure our listeners, um, so I'm also very sure they'll be intrigued, curious to explore more about it, and yet to also know about your work so how they can reach out to you.

00:47:19 Siobhán Ewert: Yes, thank you so much. So they can connect with me through my website. If they're interested in working with me, they can just send me an email or sign up for my newsletter. I frequently share a lot about my work, a lot of insights that I find out throughout the mappings. And so that's my first name and my last name, which is S I o b h a n e w e r t dot com. And thank you will put it in the show notes too, right? Yeah. And they are also very welcome to reach out on LinkedIn and connect with me there. That's they will find my, my me via my first and last name, obviously on LinkedIn.

00:47:55 Sana: No need to worry about that because all the links, including the LinkedIn profile of doctor will be there in the show notes. So I invite all of you. I encourage all of you to check that out, find it attached along with this episode. And thank you so much, of all this was a very, very, very enriching discussion. Thank you so much.

00:48:14 Siobhán Ewert: Thank you so much for having me and for asking those brilliant and in-depth questions. And also thank you for bringing your own examples. I feel like it enriches, um, you know, it makes it a lived conversation. Thank you. Thank you so.

00:48:27 Sana: Much. And thank you to all the listeners for being here. Um, and if you have been here with us, uh, till this minute, Mark, um, I would request all of you to share this episode with your fellow founders or entrepreneur friends, your colleagues or loved ones, your friends in your communities or groups. And also do follow the mindful living on Apple, Spotify, or wherever you're tuning in, because that helps more and more people to make sure that they are, uh, getting notifications on everyday daily releases. So thank you for being here. I am Sana, and I'll be back soon with another conversation. Thank you so much.