What does it take to balance mental health and professional success in

the high pressure world of architecture?

Discover how Doug Hodgson is redefining workplace wellbeing and sustainability.

In this episode of architecture business club.

The weekly podcast for solo and small firm architecture practice owners,

just like you who want to build a profitable future-proof architecture

business that fits around their life.

I'm John Clayton, your host, if you're a small practice leader or

so practitioner in architecture, struggling to find clarity or reach

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Now let's discuss mental health and wellbeing.

Retrofit Agenda for New Works, a practice he co founded to explore a new

way of working based on the principles of specialism and collaboration,

well being and sustainability, with a fundamental belief that well being

in the workplace generates better relationships and better architecture.

Prior to Newerts, Doug had co founded TDO, was a design fellow at Cambridge

University, and in 2020 was named in the Architect's Journal 40 Under 40.

Doug is passionate about improving mental health and well being, and has found

from his own experience of being proudly openly gay, that there's an urgent need

for greater kindness, understanding, and inclusion in the construction industry

to make the profession more relevant.

Doug.

Welcome to Architecture Business Club.

Hi, John.

Thanks for inviting me.

You're very welcome.

It's good to have you here.

Doug, um, I know that when you are not busy working at NewWorks that you

enjoy spending a lot of time outdoors and you, uh, you have an allotment as

well, don't you, could you tell me.

a bit about that?

Yeah.

Well, we've been lucky enough to have the allotment for a number of years,

and, um, we had to sort of completely clear the brambles and get stuck in.

But the moment in time that it really felt like a, an absolute

blessing was during COVID.

Thank you.

Where we were able to actually go from our home to this rather

extraordinary place and spend time.

And have that connection, uh, to the outside and to, to other things other

than the sort of the day to day rhythms of architecture that we all try to

maintain during those COVID lockdowns.

We have this, this ability to get outside.

So I found that moment in time, incredibly sort of revealing about mental health

and, um, how I saw others struggling.

On these zoom calls, as we were all doing at that time.

And that didn't have that sort of connection and that ability

to, to go somewhere else during that, during that period.

Yeah.

A little shed or a little hut there as well, where they'd have like a

little area to make, um, you know, a cup of tea and, and some chairs to sit down

in a deck chair and admire all the hard work that they've been doing on there.

And it was a really great experience.

Relaxing place and I was kind of quite envious of that.

Actually.

I was like, this is amazing Obviously, there's there's a lot

of hard work involved as well.

But um, it certainly looked like a lot of fun

Yes, it is hard it is hard.

work, but it's always incredibly rewarding.

And, um, I think during the course of having, having the plot and, um,

seeing others also on the site doing what they're doing, it reminds me

more and more of actually almost how architecture could be or should be.

It's this sort of idea of putting a lot of work in early on and then

seeing the sort of the fruits of that coming through, uh, quite literally.

Um, and it's this, this sense of that connection to the sort of rhythms and

seasons and time and materials, um, which is, is, is sort of endlessly fascinating.

Um, I remember there was this one, one story that my, my dad likes to tell about

when he was working with a Japanese garden designer and, um, the client asked the

garden designer when he was over from Japan, you know, just in program wise.

When's the, when will the garden be complete?

And, uh, the garden designer said back, Oh, about 400 years, you know.

So, it's that sense to there being a real longevity to these, this

hard work you're putting in now, but actually that many things that you

do will be sort of either coming to their fruits that year, that season,

or maybe a couple of seasons later.

Or that tree that you are planting?

Well, you know, they often, people often say is, if you're planting a tree

to shade, shade your grandchildren.

You know, and that's, I think quite an interesting thing for architects

to think about is what, what are we doing now and how does that

then impact on generations to come?

So through sort of regenerative materials and the use of that, um,

as a, as a sort of stable within, um, sustainability, I feel that there's,

there's a sort of connection I have born outta this work on the allotment.

Coming back into architecture now and the sort of interest in materials and

research and actually we're as new works.

We're really, um, investigating that now and researching that now, um,

working on projects like the Phoenix project down in Lewis, um, which is a.

mass timber, um, huge site working with many other architects.

I think there's something like 13 or 14 different practices working on that side.

And there's a real drive there for, uh, to be as sustainable as it can

possibly be, but also to use as many regenerative materials as possible.

So that's, that's super interesting to

That's so cool, yeah, yeah, absolutely So, I mean we

could talk about sustainability.

That's That's probably a whole topic for a whole other episode This episode

though, in particular, we are going to talk about mental health and wellbeing

in architecture so that we can, we can raise awareness of the issues

that people are commonly facing.

Also so that architects and other professionals working in the industry

can learn how to safeguard their own mental health and so that we can try

and improve the situation as a whole.

Doug, what are your thoughts on the current state?

of architecture professionals mental health and well being in general.

Well, sadly, I sincerely think that we're at a crisis moment.

in the practice for mental health, um, or just general health, but especially mental

health across, across the profession.

Um, there's an ever expanding expectation on the individual

practitioner to know everything, and it is becoming increasingly complex.

Especially with the building safety act and other things which one again

You could talk more but probably tom actually it's probably a better place to

talk about those things, but my business partner Um, but I from from my side

from a mental health perspective Uh, I see that alongside things like the cost

of living crisis and um, the working hours practicing Practicing architects

have to put in as being a huge impact on mental health and physical health

to professionals You And I think that it's sad that, um, practices often

work well beyond, um, the contracted hours, you know, it's not uncommon.

And I'm sure a lot of people listening would recognize this for

practices to have an expectation that people will work beyond contracted

hours up to 9, 10, 11 o'clock.

When I've worked places like that, where we were happy just

to get to last orders at the pub.

You know, I'm not, I'm not saying that everyone should go to the pub every

day, but you know, it's 11 o'clock, so that's, that's sort of revealing.

And then other practices, there's a sort of expectation if it's not

finished by Friday, you'll come in on Saturday, maybe Sunday, and

that actually happens very often.

We've, we've employed project architects from other practices, large practices,

age of 100 practices, that they, they regularly work Saturday and Sunday.

Before they came to work with us when we were TDA and, um, we,

we never worked weekends at TDA.

We never wanted a regular regularly to work beyond six o'clock.

We were nine till six and, um, we felt that it was very,

very difficult to compete.

Everyone else who just seemed to be working double the

hours that we were, um, on.

And then how do you then pay staff, um, if you're trying to achieve,

um, the same goals with less time.

Um, so I think that that is a real pressure on the mental health of.

within the practice, regardless of where they are, whether you're the

youngest and you're expected to do a lot of production or you're in the middle

and you're expected to manage that and pressure on those to produce, or you're

being, you're feeling like you're having to report to your bosses that you are

achieving targets, which are unachievable within the timeframes expected.

So that then, um, I believe comes down to whether the, uh, whether the

profession is re renumerated enough.

By the wider industry and a recognition of maybe what architects bring to the, to the

wider industry needs to, needs to happen.

That's quite, um, a shocking state that you've just described there.

It doesn't sound like what anybody entering the industry would have

ever have wanted as a career path.

And it sounds like something that people in many other industries, just,

they just wouldn't put up with that.

And, would be astonished to find out really, because that's

10th, not the expectation of someone.

If you asked on the street, what does an architect do?

I'm sure they think that we wander down the street with a roll of drawings

under our arm and, you know, turn up on site and point at a crane, like move

that crane, put that panel over that.

That's probably what they think we do.

Um, they don't realize that actually it's, um, they're just responding to

emails, uh, and dealing with crisis after crisis of unknown origin.

Um, and, uh, trying at the same time to achieve an architecture, which we are

proud of, that we feel that we can stand up within the profession and that other

professionals then won't criticize.

So there are pressures from.

And I think that is what's really impacting and creating this mental health

crisis, um, across, across the, the age range of, of, um, our professionals,

which is incredibly tough to see.

But I feel that at this moment in our careers, after having run a practice

for 15 years, Um, and set up a new practice now to, in recognition of that,

I feel that it is a moment to, that we need to start talking about it more.

absolutely.

Well, I think there are certainly more conversations going on about

it and hopefully by highlighting the issues in, uh, on platforms like this.

It's something that we can encourage more people to talk about, and we can,

we can try and find some solutions to it.

But what do you think the root of it is?

Do you think the current education, uh, education system affects

architects well being in practice?

Yes.

Uh, it's the simple answer.

I think that education is fundamental.

It sort of sets the tone for the whole profession.

the culture and the time.

And, um, I mean, I've taught, I taught, as you mentioned earlier, I taught

at Cambridge for a number of years.

And, um, that is actually an incredibly well set up course.

Um, there the tutors have a limited amount of influence over their,

their studios or their units.

Um, there are lots of other, um, experienced individuals

that they can go to, to talk to.

And it's the structure there is actually quite interesting that in

stark contrast to the Bartlett, where I, I studied at UCL, um, where your

tutor is like a sort of demigod and figure, um, that is all powerful.

Um, over your entire time, pretty much.

And actually, when you arrive, on the first day you arrive as an

undergraduate, your first year, you're young, you're ambitious, you're

impressionable, you're malleable.

They, um, they announced to you, all of you as a group, that if you're

thinking of joining a club, rugby club, or rowing, or, you know,

theatre or something, Don't do it.

You don't have time.

You only have time for studio work.

If you're thinking of making friends in other departments, don't do it.

There's no point.

You won't see them.

You'll be here.

This is actually the words that are coming out of, out of the mouth of

the, uh, of the heads of departments.

Um, they also announce that not all of you will make it.

They announce on that first day that by the end of that first year, 30 percent

will probably fall out, drop out.

Then by the end of your third year, look around the room.

That'll only be 40 percent of you left now that is setting

the tone for a competitive.

And incredibly sort of, I don't know, like sort of powerful moments within

these young individuals to look around and go, well, okay, so if I, if I want to

make it, if I can, how can I make this?

I have to do everything.

You are basically, they're saying, what are you prepared to give?

Are you prepared to give everything to this moment?

And that means that that's why the students at the

Violet produce so much work.

And you see it at the end of your show every year, because

they don't do anything else.

And, um, and it's 24 hours a day, seven days a week,

students sleeping under desks.

It's absolutely appalling.

And this is all to whose benefit?

I mean, you're within the studio unit structures at the Bartlett where

You're very much given a style by the studio or that the unit tutor

to say, right, replicate this.

If you want to get a good mark, an acceptable mark, replicate what I do as

a professional, whether it's some weird drawing on sticks with sort of floating

things, um, like CJ them, um, or it's, you know, something that's a bit more

swirly, um, sort of Neil Speller ask, you know, You know, you're asked to replicate

now, who's the product of those units.

I mean, who's that, but whose benefit is that it's really, is that I would

ask the question, is it for the tutor and their professional or sort of

whether you call it professional, their, their sort of, uh, endeavor,

their creative endeavor, or is it for the individual students who was really

just there because they wanted to study architecture and maybe build some houses.

You know, so, um, yeah, I think that there's a real, that's a, there's a

fundamental issue there, um, with the way that schools like the Butler set up.

Uh, sounds like a really unhealthy relationship between

the student and the, the tutors.

That doesn't sound good at all.

I mean, how, how did that feel at the time?

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I think when you're in a sort of abusive relationship, we

can call it that, well, it is that, um, you don't really question it

because it is all, you know, um, you don't, you haven't done it before.

So part one, you know, just Turn up, you think you're at a good school

and you just try and do your best.

And it's only afterwards and many, many years afterwards.

I mean, all of our partners, you know, my husband describes it like, um, when

we all get together, that we're sort of.

Like we were in Nam or something, you know, we've all got PTSD from this

experience and it's true We just this is years ago This is 20 years ago And I'm

still feel when I see someone like CJ them now as I did the other day at the

AA He was guest critic, which I think is an absolute disgrace should not have

been there Um, he was there and I got sort of cold, sort of, not cold sweat

exactly, but there's a hair in the back of my neck standing up and it's just,

and he had no idea really who I was and he sort of vaguely recognized me.

But it was this sort of odd moment and I just felt like, why are you here?

And I actually mentioned to the head of school at the AA later

that day, I said, you know, this, this is completely unacceptable.

He shouldn't be in the building.

He shouldn't be near students.

And, um, Ingrid said that, you know, I will, I had no idea that he was coming and

I'll make sure it doesn't happen again.

I'm so sorry.

But, um, you know, Fran Williams from the AJ was there standing next to me and she

was like, yeah, it's an absolute shock.

It's an absolute shocker, but it's this sort of, There seems to have been

a forgetfulness of um, what happened, there was a whole report on this, you

know, there's a, you know, this is, this shouldn't go unsaid, uh, anymore.

Um, so, yeah, I think that's bad, but one of the main reasons I think it's bad is

that obviously in the moment it's bad, but it's then what it does, uh, leads

into the, bleeds into the profession.

So, as a part one in many of these schools that have sort

of similarities to the Barber.

You go into the profession and you have an expectation that that's

just the way you should be treated.

So whether or not the practice owners realize this, but that is that they

then start behaving like, or are treated like, uh, the, the tutor.

And so that's why there's this sort of acceptance.

Of, um, mistreatment, I think of young people in the profession and that's

why they're taking advantage of it because they've, they just, that's what

they know, that's what they've been treated like when they're in education.

And that's why I think it's incredibly toxic for the profession.

Generally.

Um, I also think that whether the people running these practices realized it or

not, but actually what they're doing is effectively suppressing fees for the

profession because they're so overly reliant on, uh, suppressing the, um, Uh,

on the hours of unpaid work by the young people, um, to support their practices,

but they're not charging enough in fees.

So when you have either unpaid interns or you have low paid, um, part ones and part

twos, some of which is absolute disgrace.

Some of, so some of these.

Are on, uh, these people are graduates or twice graduates and they're on

less than a London living wage.

Um, and they're expected to work more hours.

So therefore, you know, their, their sort of equivalent pay in other professions

is just so distort, so distortional.

Um, and I think that there's a lot of conversation recently

about young doctors and, and, and their, what they should be paid.

And I think that that's, um, the sort of conversation that needs

to be had in, in architecture.

Um,

in architecture, whether that's as an architect or

an architectural technologist or other professionals in the industry.

But what, what we're paid, the fees that people tend to charge

just don't, don't reflect that.

There's other industries that seem to do, do far less work, , at far less

risk and get paid far more money for it.

And as you say that this, these issues that are born out of the education path

and, and the experience that a lot of these younger architects are getting,

or the, the people that are in training that's carrying through to their.

basically just not really be treated very well that, you know,

employers are in a position where knowingly or not, it's just like,

Oh, well, they're willing to do this.

And, and that's means that I can get more out of them for paying them less money.

So it's, Yeah.

it's quite a sad, sad situation that I'm, I'm sure we'd,

we'd all like to see change.

I mean, as a profession, more and more is expected of us these days.

So how, how do you think we can avoid overwhelm?

Or worst case burnout.

Well, I think there's that.

So Tom, my business partner and I have discussed this a

lot and setting up new works.

Um, and we strongly believe that we need to, as a profession,

specialize and collaborate.

So what we mean by that is to this concentrate as individuals as individual

architects on what we're good at.

And be honest with ourselves about what we're good at, but also what we enjoy.

So, um, do, are we good at the creative front end, which is very sort of

client facing other consultant facing.

Where we're sort of developing the idea effectively from a either an

existing built condition that we're sort of adapting retrofitting And

so i'm i'm often involved in or is it from a sort of a more of a blank?

Sort of sheet if you like where it's more of a what's the ground condition

and work from there Um, which tom is often involved in um, and that's a

really fascinating Um sort of sort of realm for us Um, we, although we

delivered many projects as TDO, um, and enjoyed in part some of those processes,

we really came to the realization it wasn't what we were, uh, enjoyed the

most and, um, others were better at it.

So companies like Veritech, uh, who we collaborate with regularly, um,

they only do that delivery side.

They only do stage where they come, they come in at any stage

you need them to alongside you.

Um, and always working at all stages, but they take over that lead design

role really within stage three through stage four and stage five.

And, um, we get to stay on in the, in the, in the project.

We, we always will, but always stay all the way through alongside the clients.

Um, but we have a, a lesser role.

We're really there just for a point of reference of both for the client,

but also for the delivery architect, completely collaborative that.

Come to us and say, well, what was the intent here?

Well, what, how should this be?

Uh, and we, we then have the tools and the, we, we believe we're good at

then talking to the client about how and why these things need to happen.

Um, whereas, you know, others are better at that, at that other end

as, as Veritec are, and I think as a profession, if we're more honest with

each other, where we sit within that, I think that we're then capable as

people, as just individual humans, to be able to get through the working week.

In a more measured way.

So one of the things that we were just absolutely astonished by

Veritech was how calm their offices.

They're considering they only do that stage of work.

You know, they, it's just, I think there's also a way in which contractors,

um, deal with a company like that, that they just don't behave the same way

as they do to a young, uh, design led, uh, small ish architectural practice.

You know, and Veritech don't get pushed around.

They don't, they don't get those incredibly rude phone calls or emails

or WhatsApps or, you know, whatever it might be at random times of the day.

Which just completely destroy the working day.

You know, they have very strict structures, which are then backed up

throughout the, um, the, that their organization and it's, and that means

that the people that are working within that practice, within those delivery

stages are then they're protected.

They, their mental health is protected and they enjoy it.

Because they are able to develop the detail to, uh, see the realization of

these buildings from paper to, to, to, to buildings and it's, uh, you know,

they, they enjoy that and we enjoy being part of that, but I think there's

a realization that what we're actually enjoying more on a day to day basis,

what we want to be able to, to do when we can, what we're excited about when

we come to work is that earlier stage.

Um, that's our, that's our priority.

I love that.

I'm a huge fan of collaboration and what you've described is.

It's something that I've heard a lot of, um, coaches, uh, talk about.

And some of the online business experts that talk about things

like, you know, stay in your zone of genius or, or do what you do best and

delegate the rest, things like that.

And it's like, I think the traditional business model for most practices

is very much that we're all service and we have to do everything.

Through all of those work stages, even though we know actually, if we're

really honest, that the certain work stages that we either really don't

look forward to doing brings us no joy, but we just do it because we think

that's what our clients expect of us.

We think everyone just wants this all in one solution, but.

Having a team, like having a team working on a project, like that, that team doesn't

all need to be under the same roof.

I mean, we're already used to often collaborating with other

consultants, whether it's, um, outside of our area of expertise.

So say, Structural engineer would be a good example.

Often that's a consultant that's needed on most projects, but actually breaking

that down further and saying, well, actually the function of the architect

and, and, you know, the lead designer on the project, that can actually be broken

down to in the way that you've described where you say, actually, we really shine.

In these early work stages, this is what lights us up.

This is the reason why we decided to get into architecture, not because we want

it to be, chairing a site meeting with a contractor later or, or doing a detail.

There are other practices though, that love that.

I spent some time working in some small to medium size practices,

uh, earlier in my career.

And you get, you get to meet all sorts of different people.

working in those practices and there were people there that

really shone in particular areas.

There's one or two that spring to mind now, but when it came to stage, uh,

early stage stuff, they were great.

There was other guys in the office that stage four and five,

they were absolutely amazing.

Particularly stage five, there was some Absolute superstars in some of

those practices that like they were so good at handling all of the site

issues and all of that side of it.

and how great would it be if you get to go to work every day and you get

to do the work that you love to do.

Without having to do so much of the other stuff.

That team doesn't all need to be under one roof.

You can, you can collaborate with other practitioners and

bring in other consultants.

And even, um, outsourcing as well is another thing that, um, I think

a lot of practices should explore.

So, Yeah.

there's, there's definitely some mileage in that, that, um, other

practices can take from this.

We were talking there about overwhelm and we've talked about a few ideas there

about how people can set their practice up in such a way to try and minimize

that and avoid it from happening.

But for those people that might be listening that are already feeling

overwhelmed or, or even feeling close to burnout from the work that they're

doing, what can we do about it?

Do you have any thoughts on that?

If somebody's listening and they're already feeling really overwhelmed

with the work that they're doing?

You can hear the rest of my conversation with Doug in the next episode.

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