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Welcome to LawNext PR, the podcast
where we put a spotlight

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on the latest news
coming out of the legal tech industry.

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This is Bob Ambrogi, and in each sponsored
episode of LawNext PR, I interview

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a legal tech company about its
just released news or latest developments.

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Today we're talking about Trellis AI,
a new set of generative AI tools

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from the legal technology company Trellis
designed to simplify litigation tasks.

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Joining me to discuss
the new feature is Nicole Clark,

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the founder and CEO of Trellis.

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Nicole,
welcome to the show. Thanks so much, Bob.

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Great to be here. Always good to see you.

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So, before
we get into talking about Trellis AI,

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that which you recently launched.

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Why don't you give us a little bit
of an overview of Trellis and what you do?

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Absolutely.

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So Trellis is a state
trial court research,

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analytics and AI platform.

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And what I mean by that is for anyone
who has worked at the trial court

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level, ever been in state court,
they know that the state trial court

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system is a massively fragmented
and opaque system.

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And what we do
is we go in county by county.

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We aggregate the state trial court data,
we structure it, normalize it,

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make it searchable
for really a single source of truth

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for the United States, trial court system.

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for the United States, trial court system.

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And then, of course, we're able to
then power analytics

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like judge analytics, law firm analytics,
and now AI.

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On top of that.

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You were yourself a litigator
before starting this company.

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So you you know, the paying
a lot of lawyers, felt right.

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I know it well,
I was an employment litigator,

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which means I was in state trial court
all the time.

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And I simply couldn't believe that,
a product like Trellis didn't exist yet.

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How did we.

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How did we have,
you know, such a great ability

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to look into court of appeals
and to look into Supreme Court.

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But yet in the court system
where every case starts trial court,

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we just had a black box.

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So you've just recently launched
Trellis AI,

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which is a really kind of a whole new set
of features and functionality,

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on top of what you had already built.

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So why don't you tell us about Trellis
AI on a high level,

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and then we can dig into it
a little bit more?

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Absolutely.

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So, you know, with with the data

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So, you know, with with the data

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that we have, we have this
just absolutely incredible data

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set at a massive scale and,

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a way that it just is unmatched.

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And because we have that,
we have just hundreds of millions

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of motions and briefs and really
what is effectively attorney work product.

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And we're able to use that
to help litigators.

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We really work for
the product is for trial court litigators.

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And we're able to help them
do litigation tasks

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that they, would otherwise
be doing more manually.

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And we're able to do that
because we have this incredible data

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set of which to train and

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to, uses as examples.

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to, uses as examples.

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So, can you talk a little bit
more about the data side,

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just in terms of how extensive it is
and how that, how it perhaps

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is different from what other companies
out there in the market might have?

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Absolutely.

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So attorneys have traditionally used
really Court

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of Appeals research,
which of course makes sense.

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Court of Appeals
is binding on the lower courts,

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and the lower courts
are supposed to listen.

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The truth of the matter is, at the trial
court level, judges really do anything.

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And and anyone who has practiced in state
trial court

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knows quite
how unpredictable that court system is.

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And part of its
unpredictability is the the,

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impossibility of

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trying to understand
what happens in that court system.

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And so

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at this point,

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we have over 2600 counties.

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Again, every county is a fragmented,
unique universe onto its own.

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And then on top of that,
we have hundreds of millions

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of motions
and briefs and judicial rulings.

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And then from there, we're able

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to synthesize information out,
like practical information on how what

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the particular judge that you're appearing
before, how they rule on similar cases,

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what their motion grain rates
are to how a particular law firm,

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really, what does their performance
look like across the nation?

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So we're now at 45 states,

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2600 counties, which is over 3000 courts.

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And this is the data set that we have.

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Just think of it
as the entire United States court system,

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which is so much larger
than simply court of Appeals,

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because every case starts in trial court
and 99.7% of cases don't make it to trial.

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They live in that state
trial court system, and they die there.

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And it's rare, actually,
to make it all the way to trial

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and then to court of appeals,

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which is the subset of data
that was historically used for research.

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So how does all that data help power
these new AI tools?

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You've launched?

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So think

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about it as some of the work
that we have watched our customers

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and our litigators
do more manually on our system.

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So let's take motion drafting for example.

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We've always been heavily
utilized for motion drafting because we

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have hundreds of millions of examples
of motions on before a particular

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judge on a particular cause of action
with very similar case facts.

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But historically, lawyers were pulling
those more manually and working with that

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to create sort of to use as an outline
and create a motion.

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What they can do now on
Trellis is by practice area, by particular

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cause of action.

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They can draft msj arguments
in the way that we do that is

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we have the complaint, because of course
we have everything that's filed in the

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we have the complaint, because of course
we have everything that's filed in the

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in the state trial court system.

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We extract out all the important facts.

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We search across our entire database
of similar cases to find cases

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with the most similar facts.

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We then look at msj arguments
in those cases and arguments

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that have actually won.

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We take argument and case law that's able
to use to generate the argument.

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And then we take the facts
of the attorney's particular case.

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So they're working on
and apply the facts of their case

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to this winning argument in law,
and provide them with the output

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of these msj arguments,
which are absolutely, incredible.

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And, and work to create
such a, such a strong starting point.

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And it's not just sort of random
Court of Appeals text generated,

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but it is able to use the hundreds
of millions of documents

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that attorney to filed
and where they've actually won.

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And it's able to use that case law
and those arguments

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to create this draft output
for the litigators.

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So the AI is getting trained
against the arguments that have worked,

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that have won the cases that have worked
then and won in other cases,

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and applying it to your factual situation.

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We said it even better than I did.

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Well, I'll just try to summarize,

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And you mentioned
motions for summary judgment.

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It's also motions to dismiss
as well. Right.

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That's correct.

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And we're obviously going to continue
building on from there.

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Think of this as a starting point
with quite a quite a bit to tackle,

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Think of this as a starting point
with quite a quite a bit to tackle,

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but we're trying to go
after the most common

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or most difficult, most time
consuming motions as a starting place.

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Right.

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And, and so something else that,

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there's these AI tools let,
a litigator do,

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is to create a kind of an assessment
of, of the case that you have at hand.

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Right. Can you explain that?

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Absolutely.

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And and this is, one of the a features
that our customers

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are really excited about.

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So what we do here

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is we allow from just the start of a case
where you have the complaint,

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and what we do is we use all of our data,
similar cases, similar outcomes.

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What verdicts look like,
what juries look like.

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And what we do is a full case assessment
based on that.

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So what are some of the tasks
that attorneys need to do right away?

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Creating timelines, creating chronologies.

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You know, identifying witnesses to depose,
identifying witnesses that you need

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to find and may have valuable information
that you'll need to notice depositions.

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So a lot of really practical,
tactical information,

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So a lot of really practical,
tactical information,

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but then mixed with a high level
about the case,

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what are the legal issues in this case?

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What are the elements
that need to be proven from a very start?

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How is plaintiff attempting to prove those
from as a starting place?

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How will they need to continue
in order to win?

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What are common defenses
that have been really successful

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against these arguments
in cases with similar facts?

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So think of it as the very high level.

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What does a jury pool look like?

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What are recent
verdicts look like for similar cases,

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so that you can see the case
for a big picture from the very start?

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What do I need to prove
and what have other cases?

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What has developed in those cases?

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It could be helpful for me
from a starting place

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then down to the tactical,
given these facts,

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given these causes of action,
what are motions that you should consider?

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What are the next steps
that you need to do?

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What should you talk to the client about?

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So we're trying to really give a
a of bull case

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assessment, evaluation of a case
from the very start, which can be used

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in so many different ways.

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One of which is, obviously,
when you're just starting a case to be

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able to pull it all together,

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or when you want to

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communicate that to the client
and you want to pull

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some of this information together
for the client,

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or when you're having new folks,
new colleagues come and join

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in, they need to ramp up quickly
on the case and understand everything.

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But it's also helpful for others

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when they're thinking
about evaluating a case in general for,

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you know, whether to take certain cases

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or what are going to be,

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you know, the,
the obstacles in a particular case

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and knowing those quickly upfront.

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And so we really try and make the
this incredible thorough

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evaluate option that gives both strategic

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and tactical information
based on similar cases.

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Yeah.

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So really becomes like a playbook
for the case.

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And I this is this is a podcast.

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But I would encourage listeners
or watchers

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even to go to your website, go to
I wrote a blog post about this.

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It's really it's really quite cool.
I have to say.

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You said,
you said that your customers find

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this is one of the most interesting
or one of the most intriguing features.

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I also thought it was really, really cool.

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And, it's it's a highly detailed,
outline of the case.

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And then,

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as I understand it,

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as the case progresses,
you can continue to update

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this with additional documents
and additional information and continue

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to refine the the entire case assessment
as you go forward.

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Right? That's correct. Absolutely.

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And I would say for that,

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one of the things that we've worked with
some of our customers, you know, we

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how do we get attorneys
the right information at the right time.

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And what we're doing with
some of our law firms is creating

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workflows where they get the attorneys.

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Sometimes with the dinger system,
it doesn't matter

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which dinger system you use or which
court alerting service you use, but

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being able to have the case assessment
right there with the new case

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that you're identifying
or giving the attorneys the

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this information directly in their inbox
when the case gets assigned to them,

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without them even having
to go on to Trellis and to request it.

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But we work with firms to do that and
create those automated workflows as well.

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So we've been talking
about these kind of case level tools.

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In addition, this roll out of
Trellis AI includes documents specific

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or I think, as you've called

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them, on document tools
when we've talked about it before.

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Can you describe
what those kinds of tools are?

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Absolutely.

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So if you think about the vast database
that Trellis has, we obviously have

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these hundreds of millions of motions
and complaints and filings and,

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we are able to do a variety of tasks
on all of our documents.

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So if you need to create a timeline,
if you need to create a timeline

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off of multiple documents,
all part of a case deposition

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in information and,
what have you create timelines from there.

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If you need obviously to summarize
or extract information to extract the case

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law that's been cited to you
so that you can then research that,

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there's so many different, tools
that you can use.

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there's so many different, tools
that you can use.

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You can, analyze arguments.

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You can, analyze arguments.

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What are the main arguments
that they're making?

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What are they using to support that?
What are the facts?

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They're supporting that
with all the way to, what are, affirmative

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They're supporting that
with all the way to, what are, affirmative

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and OAD offenses
that could be used based on,

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what we've seen in the,

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millions of other, cases
that have had similar issues.

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millions of other, cases
that have had similar issues.

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So there are a lot of different document
tools like,

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but those are
those are some of the highlights.

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Yeah. But I mean, it's again, just to,

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go a little deeper into that.

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I mean, you can take a complaint tool,
you can take a complaint and analyze

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the complaint, and it's going to tell you,
not just the causes of action.

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Now, it's not just
what's in the complaint, but what's needed

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to kind of prove the allegations
of the complainant and what facts may be,

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what facts are alleged in the complaint,
and maybe strengths

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and weaknesses of the facts
as they're alleged.

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So it really goes beyond simply
this is not just a summary.

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In other words, this is a real kind
of analysis of a document.

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Is that fair to say?

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That's absolutely true. Yeah. Yeah.

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And and the,

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the, the documents that you can apply

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these tools to really can be any document.

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They don't have to be
something that was already in

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on Trellis
that was came out of a docket on trolleys.

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If a lawyer wants to upload a document

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or something else,
they can do that as well, right?

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Yes, absolutely.

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So we obviously because of our database,
have,

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hundreds of millions of documents,
you may not even need to upload yours.

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But the good news is
that you can upload any document and

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we can perform the same tools that we do
on a document that you've uploaded.

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So really trying to make this great
if the data is already on Trellis,

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but if it's not, don't worry.

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All of the our same, document tools
can work on any document that you upload.

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Right.

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Now, I believe it's still the case
when we talked last,

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about this product,
this was available for California cases.

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The case assessment tools are available
for California at this point.

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Right? And then will be expanded?

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Case assessment is actually available
across the nation for okay okay.

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The motion drafting summary judgment
motion drafting is currently California

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okay.

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And you plan to expand that at some point
into other.

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Absolutely.

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We're we're actively working
on expanding right now.

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Yeah.

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What else would
you like listeners to know about Trellis?

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I that we haven't talked about.

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What I, what I would say
is one of the things obviously, our data

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What I, what I would say
is one of the things obviously, our data

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and or the foundation
really, truly differentiates us.

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But another thing that really
differentiates us is that we aren't

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a chat platform, as many of the tools
that are out there are.

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We really looked at it very differently
and we said, well, why?

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Why are attorneys chatting?
What are they trying to accomplish?

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And generally they're trying to accomplish
some sort of work product they want to

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they have to then take whatever
is in the chat and turn that into a memo

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they feel comfortable with, or,
turn it into, motion.

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they feel comfortable with, or,
turn it into, motion.

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What we wanted to say was,
let's not assign the attorneys homework.

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Let's create
the draft work product for them.

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So we are one click solutions.

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Any drafting, any generative capabilities.

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You click the basically the the task,

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the out outcome,
what you are trying to create.

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And from there we create it for you.

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You don't have to be a product engineer.

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We've worked in credibly hard, thousands
and thousands and thousands of hours

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of our attorney analysts, reviewing

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with accuracy and tweaking
and working with our engineers.

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And so, we wanted to take that work,

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the work of trying to make sure you have
the absolute best prompt.

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Leave that to us, trying to make sure
that the results are accurate.

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Leave that to us, trying to make sure
that the results are accurate.

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Leave that to us.
We've done a lot of testing.

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You click a button
and create the draft work product

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that you want to work with,
and you're off to the races from there.

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Yeah.

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So instead of having to, formulate
a prompt and then continue to,

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come up with follow up prompts
to try and get it to where you want it

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to be, you click a button
and it does what you want.

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That is correct.

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And with many of those follow up prompts
that you would need to do to try to get to

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where you are,

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we've done a lot of that work on the back
end, so we have multiple chains going on.

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There's a lot of work that goes into
what's the final outcome

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that the attorneys see.

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And so we,
we want to make it where it's, it's,

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less up to how great a prompter,
you might be.

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And more up to how do we, as a company

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deliver the best results
in the most simple way to our users? Yep.

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What's the best way for users to find out
more about Trellis?

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I absolutely.

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You can go on to Trellis
dot law and, request info, book a demo.

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00:16:42,625 --> 00:16:44,416
You can go on to Trellis
dot law and, request info, book a demo.

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00:16:44,416 --> 00:16:45,708
We are here to help.

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00:16:45,708 --> 00:16:47,708
You can also reach out directly.

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00:16:47,708 --> 00:16:48,750
To me I'm on LinkedIn.

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Nicole. Underscore a underscore. Clarke.

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Or you can reach out to sales at Trellis
dot law

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Well, congratulations on this launch.

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As I as I mentioned,
I've seen a demo of it.

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I've written about it on my blog.

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00:17:01,250 --> 00:17:03,250
And I think it's really, really cool
what you've got here.

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So, congratulations and thanks for coming
on the show today to talk about it.

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Absolutely. Thanks for having me, Bob.