PJ Ellis (00:38)

Daniel, thanks for joining us, mate. Right, so you're having a bit of an iOS update, mate. What's that all about?

Daniel Wilsher (00:39)

Good morning, good morning, pleasure. Good morning, good morning.

Andy (00:40)

Hello, mate.

Daniel Wilsher (00:44)

I'm having an iOS update, am indeed. think I'm going through iOS number nine, on the number nines that we talking about before. It's been a really, really interesting time for me and going through a bit of an expansion of my identity. And so most people who've heard my story, That story being the adverse childhood experience

I went through the loss of grandparents at an early age, the father who left our home at five years old, the alcohol, and then to the parents' suicide at nine, losing dad in that way. Then to being head boy, to then falling into drugs in college, and attendance dropping to 23%.

having a failed business and going through financial debt and losing a business and losing my job in the corporate world up to my journey through therapy and how transformational that was which it was 100 % an incredible, incredible journey for me and so profound up until then becoming the UK's youngest full-time public speaker and over the past four and a half, five years working with companies like Metta, Jaguar Land Rover, Clifford Chance, you know.

BT, changing lives, being on the Channel 4 show, the piano and performing at the Royal Festival Hall and writing a song about the suicide of the journey that I'd gone through called Learn to Live. And that saving the lives of a number of men. That was kind of like the journey that I was on. I'm going to use this story and I'm going to...

keep talking about the suicide in the way that I do because I think more people need to hear it which is a really important conversation and it felt like that always felt like that for me and I wanted the big vision to build a mental health platform the world's leading mental health platform for young people and then 2025 happened it was on this trajectory and it was obviously the year of the snake now obviously a snake sheds its skin doesn't it every every so often when it's growing

what it shows to the world and what the world can see no longer fits underneath and it sheds its skin even though, you know, I did this in a talk recently, even though kind of that skin served the purpose, even though it once protected the snake, it reaches a point in its own journey where, you know, it doesn't fit anymore and it releases it. And that was last year for me. And I went through...

a load of really interesting but really challenging life experiences, which was the catalyst for reflection internally as me for a man, those things being a healthy relationship, a real difficult year in business, which had me questioning my purpose and my struggle and what I needed to go back to and if I was working in alignment.

Andy (02:52)

Thanks.

Daniel Wilsher (03:05)

those things where my co-founder leaving at the start of the year and internalizing some of the reasons why that may have been and being on a journey of that. then again, approaching 30 and being like, you know, really staring at myself, looking at myself and analyzing with intention what I wanted to set for the next five years or the next update with this incongruence. And I reached this place where that story that I just summarized really quickly no longer felt...

no longer felt like mine. And I felt like, you know, I felt like I've got a really strong relationship with my dad through a load of different ways. And he works through me in ways you wouldn't believe. And I can come onto some of those stories as we alluded to earlier. you know, I reached this point where I felt like dad was going down, like you can put it down. Do you know what I mean?

Andy (03:47)

Hmm.

Daniel Wilsher (03:48)

you

know, and that it had served its purpose. And I was delivering the story and for the first time, usually when I'm doing the public speaking talks, you want to see me when I'm speaking, I'm like US preacher style. I'm like running around, Yeah, there was a lot of energy. There's a lot of energy. And when I do boxing demonstrations, there's a lot, but I was coming off and I was like, doesn't feel right anymore. And it served its purpose.

I did a lot of internal introspection. And I'm ready to now embark on a journey of finding out who Daniel is without the suicide being at the heart of everything that he does. And without it being part of my identity in everything that I do. And that was incredibly scary because it feels like an element of betrayal to Dad.

Andy (04:23)

Mm.

Daniel Wilsher (04:30)

because I'm the one who's putting me at the heart of everything that I do. I mean, I'm the one who placed it. He didn't place himself there. I've done that. I put that pressure on me to offset the balance by changing the world and whatnot and that feeling. And so I have to be kind of true to myself. my business has changed and I'm changing my branding this year, changed the services. We're launching a new product, which is away from my story, which is scalable, which is deliverable by other people, but still has made massive impact.

Andy (04:34)

Yeah.

Daniel Wilsher (04:55)

I'm kind of changing my approach around what I want to give to young people, which fundamentally will still have the same outcome, which is helping them feel better, helping them build mental strength, helping them cope with life. It's the same message, but delivered in a different way that for me feels now healthier with the journey that I'm at. And so that's my iOS update. That's where I'm at, fellas. That's where I'm at. Yeah.

Andy (05:16)

That's amazing. Thank you for sharing that.

One of the businesses I co-founded in 2008 and we're still going strong, we do about change. We're all about business transformation and business change. And we all know how hard change is for people, especially in the corporate world, people really resist change. So I'm just interested, when you had those feelings, not right, it's not right, it's not me.

PJ Ellis (05:18)

Thank you.

Andy (05:38)

How long was it between those feelings started and you get it into the reset? And how is, how is it feeling now on a this different journey?

Daniel Wilsher (05:48)

I'm glad you've brought this up because as humans, the moment that we think about behavioural change, we beat ourselves up because it's not up in next week all the time. We expect it to happen so quickly without understanding that in order to form the new neural pathways and the connections in the brain, that are going to enable us to step into that future. It takes so much time.

And I've underestimated how much time that takes. I'm still in it. I'm six, seven months down the line and I'm still, I reckon I'm about 20%. I reckon I'm about 20 % there. That's like God's honest truth. And I'm thinking about this every day. I'm doing the breath work and doing meditation on a consistent basis. Not every day. I'm still trying to get a consistent diagnosis of ADHD last year, so I've got an excuse. No, it's fine. I'm joking. But the...

It takes a while, it takes a real long time and there's an element of grace that needs to come on the process of heading towards behavioral change and you'll see it with organizations. It is a transformation and transformation isn't a quick thing. And there was a wonderful analogy that I saw a gentleman on Chris Williams podcast, can't remember his name, sorry, but he talks about learning a language. He said, you were speaking Italian or if you were speaking French,

And from today, I said, I want to speak Italian. I wouldn't beat myself up a week later because I'm not fluent. I would understand that process is going to take maybe a year to two years before I can start to say, start to properly have conversation at an okay level and to master maybe three years. And so that's the journey. And that's the grace that on this update I've allowed to meet myself with.

Andy (07:04)

Thank you.

Yeah. And I, again, I really think change transformation is a team game. You mentioned in your first question about your co-founder left and things like that. So just interested who's around you now? Who is the team? Who is there cheerleading you? Cause as you say, 20 % there after six months, you're still looking behind every now and then and you need someone to help you keep looking forward. So what's the team around Daniel then?

Daniel Wilsher (07:32)

Yep.

100%. So I have a good friend of mine. Well, actually, let me start first with the misses. My partner, we'll see the correction there. I have to start with her because, you know.

Andy (07:55)

Good point.

Daniel Wilsher (08:01)

She's she's brilliant. She is like my absolute rock and I'm blessed beyond measure to have found a lady, finally, who, yeah, who can support me in the way that she does. And just her being the way she is, she inspires me every day. She's the hardest worker I've seen. She's flying in business, her values, everything. So there's a huge inspiration from, and support from her. And yeah, she's been incredible. yeah, props to my missus. That's my rock.

Josh Cheetham, a great friend of mine, spoke at his Manchester Men's 300 event on the weekend just gone. 150 men in a room, founders, fathers, entrepreneurs talking about, know, fatherhood, business, entrepreneurship, the highs and the lows, you know, incredible men who've built incredible things. But he's been a great support. I have my business coach, Mark Hawkins, another coach, Lisa Skinner.

I have a really deep network of friends that I turn to. I've got one friend who was going through exactly the same thing last year called Tariq. He's over in the US at the moment. And as a relationship that I've been able to squeeze for all of its goodness, that's probably the most profound one from the men around me because we were going through the same thing. We're going through it.

adverse challenges last year. Last year was the hardest year I've been through and I can come onto it. And he was going through the same and we're both very, very similar. know, we lead with our heart. We are driven by passion. care astronomically about people just at our core. We have great values and sometimes, you know, the journey of being a good man in this world, I find is tougher, it's harder, it's slower.

there's more challenge, I believe, when you have very good morals and you have a great art. I think it's a hard way to live, is, because you get pulled to potentially want to be not so great at times because you see the not so greatness of other people who seem to just be going, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And it can be challenging, but I like to stay true to that. But anyway, very similar. And we just connected and said, you know.

We're both going through X, let's push each other. We designed a habit tracker, keeping each other accountable. We've got a WhatsApp thing, daily wins and support. We keep all that positive stuff on there. If we ever need to chat about anything that's going on, goes on a different channel, we just do it on our personal. So we keep everything daily wins and everything that's positive in that chat. We call each other, I would say three, four times a week. Whenever we go through something, I'll be there to go, Tariq, remember your last name. Do you mind if I swear, that all right? Can I swear on the podcast? Tariq, remember your fucking last name, mate. I was like, remember, remember.

Andy (10:24)

Go for it.

Daniel Wilsher (10:27)

remember who you are and you know we pull each other out of those holes when we don't have the capacity to do it ourselves we help ourselves we realign to the vision when he's wobbling about you know whatever he's been in and whatnot I can sit there and go, Tariq just keep doing these things you know you can do this you know you can do that you know you can do this just keep doing that put the reps in and it'll work and you know as a as a it's made me really think about the importance of of of relying on people and truly asking for help and

Yeah, I would say so I'm ⁓ blessed to have those people. I'm blessed to have my close mates around me. I'm blessed to have my family, know, I'm blessed to have my mum and the relationship I've ever had, the way she looks after me and the way she supported me even over this year. And come back to the idea of, you know, support network. A lot of people say, yeah, I've got a great support network. They don't speak to them.

Yeah, yeah, I've got people around me. When's the last time you had a deep conversation for two hours and, you know, had some reflection? Or when's the last time you connected properly? Or when's the last time you asked someone for help in that support network? And, people don't use them to, I believe, the extent of which we should. And this comes onto the human connection piece, like, we are supposed to, we're not supposed to do it alone, you know? And by definition, we're social creatures.

One of the greatest determining factors of a person's wellbeing is how strong their relationships is, it? And the best way to, I believe, grow a strong relationship is through service. And if I can ask for help and someone can serve me, it's not just me winning, they feel amazing as a result. then I'm more inclined to do something back and that relationship grows. And we're missing that from society hugely. And I want to bring some of that back.

Andy (11:58)

I mean this sounds like it's episode one of about five podcasts at the moment.

PJ Ellis (12:02)

My word, I mean, yeah, Daniel it's so ready. It resonates with me I had a real tough last year and the year before we lost one all this sitting in the mud with your mates the habit trackers all that sort of stuff is in the trenches my 100 % with the people that

Daniel Wilsher (12:08)

Mm.

The trenches, I call it. I call it the trenches.

PJ Ellis (12:19)

You know, side by side, possibly with me, I'm not very good face to face sort of thing, but definitely sitting in the trenches with people that been through it is so important and so impactful and helpful for me. Thank you for reminding me. You did a little program, you? Was it 63 schools or something in 20 days that you went round and talk a little bit more about that. What was that all about?

Daniel Wilsher (12:30)

Yeah.

Yes, we did. ⁓

Yes, so me and my ex co-founder, we did a tour across education. He is called Olly Newton. He does some great work as well. So we did a tour across education, doing 100 talks, 20 days, 63 schools, impacting 25,000 young people. And it was, it was astronomical. It was, well, one to just pull it off in the first place. Yeah, we got it. We got it done.

PJ Ellis (13:00)

Yeah man, you got it done. ⁓

Daniel Wilsher (13:03)

It

only came together about the week before. We'd been building it for a year. We needed to land sponsors to obviously do the event. we were, people didn't know, we were a week away from having it just falling through. And then the last week, I managed to pull in a hotel partnership, which gave us the funds to do the event because we didn't have to pay for all the hotels. And I managed to get it sorted and boxed it off. And then we did the tour. Incredible. Really, really incredible. And like I said, we went through, yeah.

PJ Ellis (13:09)

Yeah.

Yeah.

Daniel Wilsher (13:28)

talks, 63 schools, 20 academic days, Newcastle all the way to London, stopped off in Pratt and on the way, filmed the whole thing and just incredible and worked with some great corporate partners.

PJ Ellis (13:39)

I think it was for me that piece around, you said a few things and I'm coming back to my son quite a bit at the moment. He's 15 today. thank you mate,

Daniel Wilsher (13:46)

Hmm.

Happy birthday, see you soon.

Andy (13:51)

Happy

birthday, Blake.

PJ Ellis (13:53)

It wasn't necessarily about kids, but these habit trackers, these helping people just to feel better, to remember who they are. conversations that you've had across schools and in academic institutions, there any, I suppose what's that one sort of practical tool, that one line of hope that you'd leave my son with? Because he's finding his way.

Daniel Wilsher (14:14)

it's hard to summarise in a line, especially because in order for me to deliver one sentence of hope, I'd really have to know your son properly in order to do it. And I'd have to know what he's challenged with and what would resonate with him. And that's the beauty of getting to work with these kids is when I get to have the human connection piece, I can meet them where they're at and I can deliver that sentence or that line. that can be the thing. I'll give you an example. I worked at a school the other week.

PJ Ellis (14:21)

Mm.

Daniel Wilsher (14:36)

Brilliant school, doing great work. And I'm working, I go in in the morning, I'm in the staff room and a teacher's coming, you got your rates today, dad? I said, yeah, dude, you got your rates today. He said, you're gonna struggle. I said, oh, why, why? He said, you got this lad in there, should call him James for today. You got this lad, James, in there and he's challenging. I said, why is he challenging? was, you know, he's...

Andy (14:46)

Thank

Daniel Wilsher (14:59)

Scrapping teachers, on the verge of getting kicked out and getting suspended. He's got a great heart, but you you'll find it tough. said, all right, okay, let's see when James comes in. Thank you for this. Three teachers back to back coming, saying this. then James comes in the room.

From the moment it comes in, praise, praise, praise, praise, praise. Now obviously I'm working on an intervention, so it's kids who are struggling with behavior, struggling with confidence, struggling with communication, finding those things difficult, know, not engaging with traditional learning, that being, you know, lessons. It comes in, just praising, praise, praise, praise, praise, praise. Came in, uniform was great, look really smart today, nice to meet you, what's your name? Shake their hands as they come in, you know, I'm really, JustLads, it's a group of JustLads, shaking all their hands when they come in.

like a man's shake, know, and start speaking to him.

He perked up a little bit, know, little bit of a rogue comment. I joined in, just joined in, made a laugh of it myself, you know, got involved with the lads and then set the boundary afterwards. It was like no pressure. Told my story, built the connection, you know, saw the moments where I spoke about my story, caught him on a few points of synergy. I could tell we'd been through similar things in our life because I could see where our body responded to certain parts of the story that I told when I introduced myself. I was vulnerable first. I went first, you know, in sharing my own experience. They felt safe in the room. I'm praising them.

and praising him and he's perking up now, he's getting engaged, know, he's giving him responsibility to do stuff. And the session was a minute and he was brilliant. He was brilliant. He was getting engaged the most. And then we got to this point where I asked him to write and what we're doing. The concept was understanding what it meant to be a good man in today's world. And he was talking about his values and.

He wanted to look after his mom and I'm praising him on that. I'm using that as an example. And then we're also talking about how in school we often wear a mask. Where does the mask come from? School can sometimes put labels on us that we don't want. And why is that? And what labels do we carry that are not actually true to who we are? And when we carry those labels, how does it make us feel? And they all say, look, it doesn't make me feel good. And we're like, okay, that's because we're going away from our values and see what happens when we come away from our values, which we've all outlined were really brilliant. Anyway, smashing it. We get to this point where I get them to write 20 positive things about

himself. 20 is hard, 20 is hard for anyone, it's supposed to be tough because by the time you get to 10 you think you've blowed the hell out of That's the point but James didn't even write anything and he walked out. He left the room. Now if you know about human behaviour with young lads, showing vulnerability in any social setting is tough.

Andy (17:07)

You

PJ Ellis (17:09)

Thank

Daniel Wilsher (17:21)

being upset, being vulnerable, not knowing something, getting something wrong is often masked for young lads in anger, humour, or walking out because that's safe to show. And so that's why a lot of lads, know, when we look at how many lads are getting excluded or the ratio of students getting excluded from schools, it's majority lads because the way they present those behaviours are tough to manage. For girls, it comes out in...

either crying or they might communicate verbally because they're fighting to do so and it's much more manageable. So for lads it's tough. yeah, another thing, another podcast episode there. Anyway, I go outside with a lad.

I said, can I ask you why I think it's been tough? I said, is it tough to think of things? He said, it's not just that. He said, I can't remember the last time we've been complimented.

Andy (18:04)

Man.

Daniel Wilsher (18:04)

and he was crying. I said, can I give you a hug? I gave him a hug. I said, the only difference between me and you, or you and me in this classroom and the rest of the teachers is you've got history with them.

you've come here today, we didn't know each other, you can start afresh." I said, how good does it feel being able to to be, you know, to be complimented? I said, I've not been disingenuous with what I've told you today. You came in, you looked smart, you've engaged with me, you were respectful, you didn't speak over me, you've not said any comments to the rest of the class like, you've done it. And he said, yeah, I know, he said, like, this feels amazing. He was crying, but smiling, was going, this feels amazing, like, this feels amazing. I said, there's nothing stopping you from getting this from the rest of the school.

Andy (18:18)

Hmm.

Daniel Wilsher (18:44)

the next day the kid messages me, Dan, I've had a really great day today. Not been kicked out, been shouted at once. Just want to thank you so much. you know, and so for him, the hope came with the identity back to who he really is under the surface and shining a light on that, which every single child has. Every, I've worked with...

thousands and tens of thousands of young kids, tens of thousands of them. I'm yet to meet a young boy or a young girl who when you get them on their own, regardless, irrespective of what behavior they're displaying in school, is not brilliant in some way. Like I've not met one, I've not met one. And when you break them down on their own, when you can connect with them.

when you can share a bit about your story, when you can come from not an authoritarian point of view, authoritative point of view, and there's no hierarchy and there's just respect fundamentally, and there's no pressure, and you can be kind to them, and you can show them who they are really under the surface, then you can make really powerful change with them. they need more of that because it's tough for them.

Andy (19:48)

Yeah. ⁓

PJ Ellis (19:48)

Yeah.

Daniel Wilsher (19:49)

So to summarise,

if I was to concisely say it to your son, what would I give him?

I'd say take the pressure off. Who you are and who you become as an individual will always matter way more than what you achieve. And by definition, having that as your focus will mean that you'll achieve way more than you would do anyway. Without it.

PJ Ellis (20:05)

Thanks, Dan.

Thanks, Daniel. Appreciate that, mate. Thank you. Bang on, mate.

Andy (20:06)

Love it. Yeah.

Just, I'm curious, Daniel, because I think you've obviously worked with some really impressive corporate brands as well. And, you know, in my world, we're working with, you know, big businesses, leadership teams, executive teams, but also team leaders and kind of people on the front line. What's it like working with kids in schools versus working with adults? And what can adults learn?

Daniel Wilsher (20:15)

Yeah.

Andy (20:31)

from kids.

Daniel Wilsher (20:32)

There's a subjective piece in the sense of like, for me personally, I love working with adults, you and I love working in the corporates and I've created some real change. But for me as a man and my journey on this earth, the feeling I get from changing a young kid's life is just immeasurable.

So personally, the experience, I love working with the kids and I come away to focus purely, that was one of my changes last year, I've come away to focus ⁓ more intently on education with my work and trim some of the fire and get back to the purpose and the why reason. So from that perspective, I love working with the kids. And then in terms of the difference of working with them, the... ⁓

It's interesting because you'd be surprised there's not much difference when it comes to some of these topics that we speak about. There's not a huge amount, there's not a massive gap between when we come to the conversation of mental health, when we come to what it means to look after yourself. I speak to some adults who I'm having the same conversations with kids about, you know what mean? In that respect, it's not massively different. you know, there's obviously a very different society now.

Andy (21:30)

Yeah.

PJ Ellis (21:30)

Yeah.

Daniel Wilsher (21:39)

There's some men and some adults who trying to get them to understand the power of conversation, the power of connection, the power of relationships is a challenge more than it is with a kid sometimes. Genuinely, it can be. I think the most striking thing, not striking, but the...

The other similarity I would say between them is just how many people are struggling. Child or adult, everyone's carrying a weight. Everyone's carrying one thing, something that is on their shoulders. That when they have the correct space to be able to speak about comes out. And I think that's a beautiful thing. the pressure for everyone in that respect.

So I think from the kids approach is dependent on age again because your year 7 is very different to your year 11. Your year 7 is magic. No filter. Curious. Absolute curiosity in every aspect. No filter. No fear of judgement.

get involved in stuff that changes as they get to 15, 16. And then it's like loading a Windows 98 computer, it takes about 40 minutes to get anything out of them. yeah, definitely so. But I think there's a great willingness for kids to want help.

Andy (22:31)

Yeah.

PJ Ellis (22:36)

Yeah.

Andy (22:49)

Yeah, I mean, everything what you said there resonates with me because again, with the day job, we work with a lot of companies, a lot of leadership teams, and the frustration is it stays in the room. And the cynics go, okay, that was a really good experience, but it kind of stayed in the room once you left. It didn't really change. And that is, if you do that well, as I think we do, that's magic. Just thinking about schools and the young gentlemen you talked about earlier.

Daniel Wilsher (23:05)

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Andy (23:15)

And

as a dad with two kids at school, thinking, that sounds brilliant, how does that, you come in and do an amazing intervention, turns my son around, how can that sustain? How does that keep going after you've gone? What's the relationship with the teachers and the schools and that sort of thing? I'm just curious about that.

Daniel Wilsher (23:30)

Yeah,

100%. And that's really important. And that's a challenge because of school budgets. So it's very, very tough. So with that lad, James, we'll call him, I knew that straight away. So I've offered to mentor him for free for the remainder of the year as a first premise. It may continue longer than that. You know, I've had lots I've worked with before, a young lad called Josh who lost his dad to suicide, who I've been mentoring for years now.

relationship with it which is a friendship now not just mentorship and I first met him and was mentoring him at 14 through a school and he's now 18, 19 years old. Same with James, you know I saw that whenever have a moment like that with a kid that's as profound as that then I will always do what I can to make sure I can support him but again

with school budgets, it's really tough. It's hard. I'm thankfully, I'm on a programme, you know, with this school for the rest of the year when I'm coming in. So I'll see James, the student again, I'll be mentoring in between. I've speak to the school around making sure, you know, that the teachers are picking up on that behaviour, that behavioural change and supporting them in that way.

But it's tough because schools are just so underfunded, so stretched, you wouldn't believe. And it's challenging because when services like myself come into a school.

They might only have a budget for someone like me to come in four days in the year, four or five days in the year. And you know, we've got a thousand kids in a school and that's the piece. so getting sustained programmes into schools where we can have those touch points and continue that change and develop the relationship and do it long term and have that is the challenge, but there's a solution.

It's very, very easy and it's very, very simple and it's very, very important and everybody should be focusing on it. Every founder, every CEO, every business, every leader should be focusing on it and that is...

if you have any CSR initiative, if you're involved in social mobility, if you're involved in social value and you're a construction company who has to donate a certain amount of their profits per project or revenue per project into giving back to the community, the focus should be going on our young kids because our young kids are the future and the state of our young kids should tell you the state of our future and at the moment it's not looking good, you know, because 40 % of them don't feel hopeless about the future. 40 % of 16 to 24 year olds feel hopeless.

hopeless

about their future. We've seen a million kids by 2030 are going to be not in higher education or work, know, not learning or not working or not coming to society. We've seen how many kids ⁓ accessing mental health.

services at the moment. You know, this is the future of this is the future of what was once the greatest one of the greatest nations. I'll happily say it, proud to say it. You know, country's done some amazing things and I think it's important we acknowledge those things and I think that's also important to bring back. Yes, obviously some terrible things as many as we see many countries have done over naturally, but I think there's a beauty around this country that is wonderful. And you know, we have brilliant young kids. I want to pull that out. I want to bring

out every business.

if they can donate time to mentorship where your employees give an hour a week, or an hour a month even to support a young kid with the development of life skills, or just to have that role model, or to get a window into a world that he might not see, or if you're a construction company, some projects that we sadly didn't end up delivering on because the contracts fell through, but we these really big substantial contracts that would have given us 410 sessions for free for the next 10 years, and that's free for the school then, and it's like government

supporting the schools, we have so much cash that's been flowing around the economy from businesses, can we put a small amount into supporting the future generation who are going to be in these businesses anyway? that investment there, if it came from government, amazing, that would be brilliant. It's not doing something. It's a responsibility for us to create the change we want to see. And, know, I took up on myself to be that individual myself and try and grow the organisation to be that change. But I'm working now and speaking to some wonderful companies who want to make that change through us, which is brilliant.

think that's it and I'd love to see more of that because that's gonna have in 10 years and it's a longer process but you know if we can give these kids more hope then we build a more hopeful future and a more hopeful future is better for everyone and so starting there.

Andy (27:36)

Yeah.

PJ Ellis (27:41)

We're

in my Daniel, with you.

Andy (27:44)

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

I've got a quick follow-up question,

Daniel Wilsher (27:46)

Yeah.

Andy (27:49)

this isn't meant to be a provocative question, Daniel. Okay. This is coming from, I think I've stumbled across you as the perfect person to answer this question for me that often crops up when I'm talking to senior leaders with a certain perspective who say, kids these days just need to toughen up. They've got it easy. They spend their time on social media. They just need to work hard like I did.

Daniel Wilsher (27:52)

Yeah, yeah.

Mm.

Andy (28:14)

And I've heard that many, not stereotypes, not everybody, of course it's not everybody, some great companies out there. Yeah, it's a fair amount of people, but it's probably not the most people, but it crops up from time time in conversation. And as a dad, you know, very defensive, but I'd love to know what should I be saying to that? Next time I'll have that conversation and I'll have it. Give me a bit of guidance, a bit of coaching, how to approach that better.

Daniel Wilsher (28:20)

Most people.

Mm.

there's a thousand moving parts to the question. And I've given you 10 minute answers to the smaller questions. So this might be half an hour.

I'm going to use a story again because think stories

can give you so many learnings without going into theory. A young girl finished a talk, comes after me, she's 16, she comes up to me afterwards crying. Daniel, why are you crying? What's up? know, why are you crying? What's upset you? I've got these dreams, Dan, I want to be an author, I want to write plays, you know.

music and I want to write a book and I want to direct stages and produce things and all these brilliant things and she knew exactly where she wanted to go exactly what she wanted to do exactly what her skills are passionate beyond belief but she was crying I was okay that's brilliant so what is it upset you like you've got all these dreams and these goals I don't know if the world's gonna be here in time for me to reach them

Her biggest fear, her real fear, her reality to the point where she is crying is that she doesn't know if the world is going to exist.

in enough time for her to achieve what she wants to achieve in this world. Now, whether you are rational, whether you think that's rational or irrational, that is her reality. That's what she's experiencing. Why is she experiencing that? Look at media. Look at everything we're seeing. Look at the systems that are collapsing in front of our face at the moment by what we used to believe was a perfect system, had everyone's interests at heart, that we all work towards supporting as a society. Look at the headlines. We talk about, yes, they need to come off social media more.

come off social media more. They're designed by psychologists in Silicon Valley to keep people's attention to impact your dopamine levels. There's a report that came out that social media is more toxic than alcohol is, you know, than drinking is. This is what young people are up against. How are they supposed to fight against that?

And then you look at the impact then on the self, you look at the impact on confidence, you look at how we locked them down for two years where they were then further on, and I believe this is all by design, call me we-r-or-not, but I think we're seeing a lot of the conspiracy theorists write about quite a lot of things nowadays. Not that I'm a conspiracy theorist, I'm not, but when it comes to this stuff, I can't help but think it's by design because you don't have to be genius to understand those things, we're going to have massive repercussions on our young people, and then thus the future of this society.

And, you know, that's again podcast, maybe number six for that one. But, you know, we look at those pressures that they're facing and we look at the cost of living. We look at the overstretched teachers that are in front of them at the moment who can't regulate themselves because they're overworked, underpaid and underfunded in the schools. And they're dealing with everything that's going on on the surface. They're now rollers expanded into being a therapist alongside being an English teacher and the dealing with kids who are self harming in the classroom and kids who are taking their life in ways you've never seen before. all of those.

PJ Ellis (30:49)

you

Daniel Wilsher (31:15)

sorts of things, the scene or all of this sort of stuff. So the pressures that young people are facing right now and the challenge is very easy to read the label from outside of the bottle, isn't it? And say, well, they just need to toughen up and whatnot. Yeah, cool. All right. I get it. And there's an element of that which is true, but it's our responsibility because they are children.

It's our responsibility to make sure they have the skills to cope with what they're going through. And that is we're not educating them on how to use social media effectively. You know, we give them phones. They see the parents on the phones from when they're young. They're going to model behaviour. And so if any any any parent, you know, and it's a big conversation is like.

there's a responsibility that falls on the parent. And that's a tough conversation because we have to parent in a landscape right now that parents have really never truly been in before with the age of technology and the shift towards AI and those things. It's tough because these are unique things and the world's changing at a rapid rate. But there's a responsibility on the parents. So if we're looking at our young people thinking, well, this 14 year old, know, they're not tough enough, not this, you're the parent. And so then the question is, how do you, how do you...

build a resilient young person? How do you build a resilient young person in today's world? Now the bits that every parent and those people that you're speaking to in those organizations will agree with beyond because we're coming from the same angle is that they need to do difficult things and they need to be exposed to challenge and they need to sometimes be able to figure it out on their

They need to know that they can overcome and they need to know that they're stronger than they believe they are immeasurably. they need to know that there's this power in community. They need to know that having human connection and having strong relationships and spending time with friends in person and speaking to people in this way and working on your communication skills is gonna mean that they're gonna have an edge that most people don't have today. And that needs to be modeled by...

parent themselves and I think tough love as well. I when it comes to parenting in today's world that tough love approach is needed. is needed of course it is you know parents aren't designed to be friends of young people you know.

I got a dog, similar half the time. And I have to give him the tough love and it's frustrating because he runs up to my missus, he sleeps on my missus, know, he cradles into her and he'll sit with her, he won't do that with me.

PJ Ellis (33:27)

Close enough mate,

Daniel Wilsher (33:41)

he won't do that with me because I have to guide him, you know, I have to tell him off when he does something wrong. I have to really shout at him when he does, I to give him the discipline, you know, I have to direct him, I have to give him the treats and the reward when he does something wrong, all those things. And so my relationship with him is a bit different and that is needed 100%. They need that tough love piece. And, you know, and so the element I get where those people in corporates are coming from and where society is coming from around like the idea.

PJ Ellis (33:41)

Mm.

Daniel Wilsher (34:07)

we are too soft with them at times, yeah, I would say. I would say there's an element of it, I wouldn't require it as being too soft, think, because they would probably describe the softness as the vulnerability and the emotional connection and the talking about emotions and feelings and having those conversations, I think.

have that, but then also have this over here. It's about that holistic approach of developing the self, of developing the young person, of helping them to understand the feelings and whatnot, and be able to communicate vulnerability, even if they're a young boy, but then also coming from a solutions perspective, okay, what are we going to do about this? How can we solve this? You know, how do we move forward? How do you move yourself forward from this point? How are you going to work it out? And giving them challenge and whatnot as well. And I think...

It's compassion, isn't it? There's a compassion piece, but there's the leadership piece of healthy role models needed for young people right now, more than ever, you know, more than ever. But again, sorry, I told you I was going to give a 30 minute answer. I'm just getting more stuff coming to me. But again, it's hard because how do you lead with a kid that you struggle to connect with because what they connect with best is their phone. And I'm saying this point again, from a point of view where I'm not a parent and I...

you know, I have no idea what it's like to parent in today's world. I have no idea. And so, you know, that's an insight that you probably have better than I do, but I can't imagine how tough it is to lead properly, you know, to model behavior, to have that relationship with your kid when they just don't want to speak to you because they're on the phone and whatnot. And then that's the piece. So the responsibility then and the...

So the responsibility in the parenting piece, this is why it needs to start a lot younger because the education around the impact of this, you know, of what not is, you know, the impact of technology, I think is really important. But I think it's also how we, you know, so I think it's how we use technology because the technology is brilliant. And it's like, do you want your kids to grow up in a world where they don't have access to the tools that we all now relish in business, AI and whatnot, amazing. And it's hard because it's, it's, it's contradicting, isn't it? our technology is bad because this is, and this is like a human connection.

But on here, these are the tools that are going to shape the future of the world and how brilliant they are. Bloody hell, I just spent 50 pounds a month designing a full new website with automated systems, backend, security in there, videos in there, Stripe payment link in there for the new business that I'm launching, speaking to AI using whisper flow.

and speaking to Lovable as a dev and going, yes, Lovable, can you change this background here because I don't like it. Can you move this title down here? Can you set up a payment link here? Can you just test this page for me and tell me where, you know, from a user experience, how effective this would be and if it would convert people within three minutes or not. And how good do think I'm doing if I need to change any copy? And it goes, yeah, bam, bam, bam, bam, bam, bam, So the code for me, I'm just chatting to a dev, you know, and it's doing it in real time. That's amazing. And it's cost me 50 pound. It would have cost me eight grand before. So I can

Andy (36:57)

Yeah.

Daniel Wilsher (37:00)

understand and this is why today's world is the most challenging time that we live in and if a parent is sat there going this is the most challenging time we've ever lived through I feel it your kid is feeling it as well so if they're feeling that degree of challenge that's why they're struggling of course they are because they're in a profoundly new environment that you don't even understand and you're trying to help your kid understand it it's like impossible and so it's really really important so on that conversation of technology and what not it's like

How can we incorporate a healthy relationship with it in a way that also challenges them? How can they learn and how can we develop them as they're using the technology? Again, with Lovable, was at a talk at Manchester Men's 300 event and one of the speakers, Jermaine, talked to me about how his son, again, started using Lovable and instead of him playing Roblox.

Germain's said, ⁓ would you like to build the app yourself? Would you like to build a version? The kids go, yeah, yeah, brilliant. Okay, wonderful. Well, there's this tool, you know, and the kid has spent a couple of hours on LoverBull and he's built his own game in reality, which he now uses. How amazing is that? And you can, and you can go over and read the code and stuff. And so there's a degree of responsibility to find clever and unique ways to still get what we need out of children, which is challenge, which is develop, you know, learning, which is

Andy (37:57)

Anyway.

Wow. Yeah.

Daniel Wilsher (38:14)

is all those sorts of things in the world they understand and connect with and it's bridging that gap. Now, I don't have the answers to all of that. I've got a few of them which I'm trying to build over the next year with my long-term vision. Hopefully we'll solve this exact thing. This is what I'm working to build, which is a new vision that came as a result of the Snake class year. Thank you, the Snake.

PJ Ellis (38:32)

my son tonight, when he comes home, he doesn't know he's going to be stopping playing Fortnite and he's going to start building Fortnite. we had a really interesting conversation with episode 20, you will always be episode 27 now Daniel. We won't call you Daniel next time we see you. There we go. We did that for you, mate. We did it for you.

Daniel Wilsher (38:39)

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

207 is nine, we love there we go, I told you, I told you,

Andy (38:50)

There we

Yeah.

Daniel Wilsher (38:52)

I

told you it's there.

PJ Ellis (38:53)

And you dad,

yeah, Chris Mia, AI expert. was, I mean, he was studying AI literally 20 years ago, you know, when we probably didn't know that he was AI, if that makes sense. And he was saying actually the future when it comes to AI is quite positive in the sense that he was so.

Daniel Wilsher (38:55)

Hmm.

Amazing.

PJ Ellis (39:09)

He's so angry at social media because he hasn't been regulated, he's not controlled. It's just, know, it is what it is. And as you said, it's so Whatever that report might say, I don't need to read a report to know how harmful and toxic But AI is a little bit more regulated now and controlled and people are, and for that alone, you can see some more hope around using and bringing those techniques and tools into the household. So thank you for reminding me of that.

the partner, the friends, the network, they all fill your cup up I assume. You're doing amazing things in an emotionally charged environment I suppose and sometimes no doubt if I'm delivering talks or doing work on that I need to retreat to a safe space for a couple of days. How do you fill your own cup up mate?

The piano maybe?

Daniel Wilsher (39:53)

Yeah, so there is that, yeah, 100%. The reason why I'm going, mm, I've spent the last year with my cup being empty. You know, and there's a sacrifice that comes with the work, I feel anyway.

And that's challenging at times, you know, hard. So I want to present a version of entrepreneurship that is honest as well. Of me that's honest. Because honesty is a key value of mine. My cup's been empty for a while. It's been full at times, but it's been down a lot. But it's a beautiful thing because it's a...

Andy (40:08)

Thanks.

Daniel Wilsher (40:28)

It's force reflection, which now has made me change direction and change a lot of things and whatnot. so, you know, it's been hard. However, you know, my cup of fills and the things that I turn to is, you know, my partner is the work of being of service without.

this is the other thing I've had to come back into the energy of given because I got too caught up because of the pressure of business in numbers, which took me away from the reason I started in the first place. And, you know, I was doing service work, but it was, you know, I was caught up in big contracts and whatnot. And it's no wonder I felt empty because I know my...

Andy (41:04)

and

Daniel Wilsher (41:07)

giving means to give without expectation of return. And so I'm implementing more of that into my life of, you know.

If there's conditions that come with being a man that lives a life of service, then you'd...

It's not life for service, it? Because there's conditions around it. So, you know, I need to get back into giving from just annual energy. And I can admit that I lost that a bit on the pursuit of trying to, you know, build money. you know, money's really important for me, 100%. I'm not saying that like I want money, I want wealth because it's going to allow me to do brilliant things. But it's the energy that I move with.

wasn't generating the revenue that I wanted because I wasn't in that space. yeah, those things being a service is one. It's just lifting other people up, having impact in other people's lives gives me everything. It's everything for me. That's That's it. But the music is everything as well. It's like me playing that piano of writing, of exploring. That was the way that I navigated the world when I was young. You know, that was like, that was the way.

suicide. That was the way that I understood myself. That was the capacity to be able to put a very difficult experience through the mechanics of melodic intervals and minor fifths and major fifths and chords and song and silence and sound and words and lyrics and then have someone smile at the end of it and go okay sweet that was had a positive impact and you look at my work now it's the same. I use a creative medium with a message at the start which comes from challenge which is

Andy (42:24)

Mm.

Daniel Wilsher (42:33)

moulded and morphed through the way that I speak and how close I come to the stage and how further back I go and the demonstrations that I use to create an experience that changes the lives of people at the other end. And that came, I learnt that through music, you know, as a young boy.

So the piano is really important to me and it's on my vision board to release some music this year. So I'm finally going to get into the studio and perform at the end of my public speaking talks all the time. So I always get the piano down and we do the music at the end. It's my USP as a speaker. Yeah, but the, you know, the music definitely. Gym and training. So I do boxing. I train a tremendous amount, which is brilliant. And that's like my foundation that gives me, you know, strength. It's doing the difficult thing.

PJ Ellis (43:00)

Lover.

Andy (43:00)

Thank

Daniel Wilsher (43:16)

family but I've not used family as a cup to fill myself enough and so I need to work on that this year seeing my family more because that's a huge one and I've neglected it so sorry mum.

Solitude, we don't have enough of, man, not for me. Solitude for me is just everything.

Andy (43:26)

in

Daniel Wilsher (43:30)

Carving space out in this world is extremely tough because we have concrete walls plastered with stimulation as I wrote. And I wrote a poem actually about the power of reflection. I might do it for you actually on the podcast, that'd be nice, wouldn't it? I'll do it in a moment. But I wrote this poem about the importance of reflection and solitude and the importance of that. yeah, it was brilliant.

So reflection, that refills my cup because it helps me feel aligned. Meditation and breath work, those things.

Andy (43:56)

So

I've got one more question, just to consider your time, but if you don't mind sharing the poem, I think people will be screaming at this to say, say the poem man.

Daniel Wilsher (44:01)

Yeah, I will do 100%. Yeah, Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Yeah, yeah, definitely. So it's spoken word piece. opened, I always try and do things differently as a speaker. the Manchester Men's 300 event, my talk was on the road of reflection. So I wrote this poem called Reflections and it goes, I'll try it, see if I can get all the words. It goes.

I heard the quality of my life will be defined by the quality of my questions, but sometimes the answers I find look more like mountains to climb and I'm not sure what's the right direction. Introspection leaves glimmers of hope from mirrors I hold so close that it's blinding. I was told down this road that everything would be worth finding. I thought this path was towards the straight and narrow, so tell me why it keeps winding, wound up like a toy with the wrong owner, and I'm supposed to believe this is divine timing.

Introspection, the observation of one's own internal mental and emotional formulation. Some call that your vibration. But how do I get that setting on high when each time I try I feel so much further from my destination? Maybe it's my expectations or maybe it's the way that each day I sit and pray after my breathwork and meditation, trying to build presence in a world where concrete walls are plastered with stimulation, trying to move from being hell bent to consumed to heavenly creation. Wait a second, Dan, can you sense your frustration? I'm trying to believe in the Garden of Eden, a place where leaves don't fall on trees regardless of the season, where the eyes of those you meet tell tales of a

abundance and freedom where the Manchester bee makes honey so sweet not eating it would be treason searching for purpose and meaning but in this beautiful pursuit of clarity and truth some days leaves me screaming I'm trying to turn water to wine bend the fabric of time while parts of me are still bleeding but the shepherds told me I'll see sun rays tomorrow when it's red in the evening so in the morning when that warm glow presses against your skin and these birds start to sing songs that this city's never seen remember the pain that it took for you to win the pain that came with questions reflections from within

That's it, I smashed it. There you go. That's the point. That's the point.

Andy (45:43)

Oh man, Absolutely fantastic. That has

PJ Ellis (45:45)

⁓ man.

Andy (45:46)

got me. know him well enough, that's got him. superb, Daniel. Superb. I'll get on to my last question and this is, oh, there'll be a pause after this because we're going to see you again, I hope. You're remarkable.

PJ Ellis (45:49)

Ho ho ho

Daniel Wilsher (45:52)

That's the poem.

PJ Ellis (45:53)

beautiful.

Andy (46:01)

young man, I'm not being patronising. I've learnt a lot from today. So thank you. Now people will be asking us, well, why didn't you ask about this and the other is got a very public story and we've been very respectful. We know it's all about moving forward. So let's talk about the business you're building, the hopes, the dreams you've got. And if we were to bump into you around about autumn, when something's going on down here, that would be amazing. What should we expect to see from you in the next six months? What's your hopes? What's your dreams? What's your foundations?

Daniel Wilsher (46:16)

Yes, amazing.

Exactly that, so.

I'm launching LifeX, so Livdex is changing from Livdex to LifeX. Again, a declaration of stepping into the future, Livdex being about the past, LifeX being about the future, to bring life skills to life for young people. And so we are launching the HOPE program, which is a six-week personal development program, which focuses on developing the wills and the ways to a better life for our young people. So I'll be delivering that. And it's an online delivery model

for parents who really want to support their young people. And it's focused on connection to the self, agency thinking, what meaning and purpose means to a young person, how to develop resilience, how to connect with the world around them, and understanding community and the power of service of other people at the heart of it. And the program is, yeah, will be delivered online, small groups. And then we have our parent coach, Natalie Costa, who is delivering a parent program, which is called The Steady Parent, to help parents navigate this

world, to build presence in this world and at home and to lead at home not just in the workplace and the premise of that is to give young people and parents all the skills that we just spoke about on today's call and so the plan for me is to launch that and

That's going to, I'm continuing to bolster my work in schools in person. Every 12 cohorts we sell, every 12 programs we sell of both the parent and the student one, sort of six of each, goes towards funding a free hope program in a school. I'm looking to develop my corporate relationships. I'm working and speaking to some companies at the moment around us going and delivering incredible change on behalf of an organization within schools across the country. And, you know, around that social value piece that I spoke to you about, I'm trying to utilize my corporate

network of working with Metta and Liglata and Clifford Chance to deliver change and then we create marketing and media that we give back to the company. The company can share about the brilliant work that we've done, we can share about it, the school can share about it and we measure the impact for these young people and that's the thing. I left, I was building a drinks business for 18 months, I left it in Jan.

⁓ I was working predominantly, know, still having corporate contract management training and whatnot. I've left it, come back to the kids because that's my why reason. It's the reason I believe I'm on this earth. And so, and I have to, I have to commit to that. So I've made a risk leaving the drinks and it was an amazing product. But I need to get back into my heart energy, which is working with the kids. So that's what I'm doing. That'll be the plan. And we're launching that in...

Andy (48:46)

Mm.

Daniel Wilsher (48:49)

from March, the first cohort going live from May, the first group of cohorts. then there'll be the music. And my goal this year is to get into the studio. My artist name is Daniel Debeck, which goes off to my Polish side of the family. I'm half Polish.

It's a bit cooler as well, sounds a bit cooler. Daniel Duback, you know. Yeah, it was my techno DJ name when I used to spin the decks back in the day. So yeah, yeah, yeah. So when I used to DJ, that was my name. And I'd just get the music out and...

PJ Ellis (49:04)

Yeah, man. I love that.

I knew you were gonna say that.

Daniel Wilsher (49:15)

find out who I am without the suicide.

Andy (49:19)

Yeah. Well, you've got a platform

here to help and support and shout out loud for you as long as it's useful and helpful. Okay.

Daniel Wilsher (49:24)

I appreciate you.

Thanks. Yeah, I appreciate it.

PJ Ellis (49:27)

100 % mate, 100%. So

we've always finished with a few little takeaways, mate. And literally I've run out of space, if I'm completely honest. But for me, and this will only be a few of many, it all started with setting up a habit tracker. Remember your surname, who you are. We are not supposed to do this alone. Have the courage to support ourselves. Write 20 positive things about yourself. I'm gonna try and do that today and I'll send it to you Daniel if you want me to share it with you.

Daniel Wilsher (49:52)

So 20 was

for the kids, I want you to write 50. Yeah, no, write your 50. I wrote 50 for myself. Write your 50. 50 is the one.

PJ Ellis (49:54)

⁓ mate, you know what, thank you and I will do that. Force reflection

can be a beautiful thing, do the difficult, seek solitude. I could go on, I mean we've had everything from melodical intervals, minor and major fifths to spoken word. Daniel, as a parent I'm grateful to people like you that makes me feel that there is hope for the future.

Thank you so much mate.

Daniel Wilsher (50:20)

Thank you very much and thank you for just the way you've guided the conversation because when I've done these typically it's the same thing story story story and I've been able to step away from that today and talk about things that have filled me with with energy and I don't feel incongruent I feel congruent and which is what I'm trying to do more of alignment so you enabled me to talk about

things that you know, just came up in a beautiful way. And that was as a result of what you asked and how you guided it. And you also your energy as well for you spiritual guys on the podcast. Yeah. So yeah, it. Thank you very much for