Hi, and welcome to the Animal Welfare Junction. This is your host, Dr. G, and our music is written and produced by Mike Sullivan. Today we have an amazing guest all the way from Australia, Anna Ludvik. And she is the founder and CEO of Lucy's Project, which is a fantastic organization, works with people and animals to find safety from domestic violence. So thank you so much, Anna, for joining us today.

Thank you so much for inviting me. It's such an honor to be on your podcast. Thank you.

Well, thank you. Well, can you start by telling us about yourself and what led you to start Lucy's project?

Yeah, sure. I mean, just to let people know, and they're listening, there might be a few things in here that people find distressing, and talking about my personal life, um, and trigger for, um, stillbirth, animal abuse, always when I'm speaking. Um, so I've, I actually... I have been passionately interested in animals and animal protection my whole life. I can't remember a time in my life where I wasn't sort of involved in one cause or the other for animals, particularly with a love, a very strong love my whole life with rural animals and large animals, um, and the connection to, to, to the land, but I've also, oh, you know, always had an interest. as well. Um, do you use that term in the States? Companion animal? Uh, we use the term companion animal. We're talking specifically about dogs and cats. Um, so lots of interesting animals. Um, I was got involved. I decided to become a lawyer. I was training to be a lawyer and I was doing a lot of voluntary work because I wanted to be an animal lawyer. That was my big dream. I was going to be an animal lawyer and be of service to animals. Um, and, um, during that training, I got very involved with the animal law and education project in Lismore, which is a country town that I live in and in Australia, New South Wales. And. I learned about this issue that really spoke to me, which was the intersection of domestic violence and animal abuse. And it was like this light bulb moment hearing these other really passionate women in this organization talking about this issue. Because for me, you know, with my long history of, of being, um, An activist. The one thing I'd always heard people say is why should we care about animals when humans are suffering? Why should we be thinking about animals? We've got better things to do than to worry about these trivial issues while children are starving. And I think any animal activist will tell you some version of that story. Any, any advocate for animals will tell you how animals have been diminished because humans are so much more serious. And you know, There's a whole conversation we could, we could have on that particular issue, but then I thought about this issue of domestic violence and animal abuse. And I think it was an issue that really spoke to me because it helped me to understand why we can't actually separate the two, why we can't talk about human suffering without talking about animal suffering and why we can't talk about animal suffering without talking about human suffering. And it was really, I think, you know, it's quite a, you know, we're a 10 year old organization. Now we weren't talking about things like One Health back in those days, but I think that was kind of the beginning of where people were starting to understand That there isn't actually that divide. And it was a cause that I felt like I cared about a lot because it helped us to understand that animals are not just a one day issue. They're a, they're a today issue. And I thought it was great that these women were doing that work in this organization. Whereas I was busy with my large animal work and um, And so I was pregnant with my first child, uh, Lucy. Um, and during that pregnancy, unfortunately, every funding attempt that these, these women in animal law and education project were trying to go for was knocked back. People said that it wasn't a real issue. They didn't take it seriously. It was minimalized. It couldn't be that big a deal. It was, it was almost mocked and derided. And so when it came time for Lucy to be born, my first child, my first ever baby to be born, um, I found out, um, during her birth. that she passed away. Um, and I didn't want to, I couldn't, it was, it was, it's, it's, it's, you know, anyone that's lost a child will tell you, it's just a grief that is very hard to find a place for. It's very hard to, to, to, to think of. How do you get through this? This is not what I was expecting. This is not where I was going. This, this isn't this, it just felt so against nature and so wrong. And I guess for me, part of the bargaining phase of getting through and coming to terms with and accepting the reality that I was about to, to birth a child that would never breathe was to give that breath and to give that life to a cause that had spoken to me to something that I had never done before, that, that. Was that hadn't been in existence to bring to life something that I felt was incredibly important and to breathe that life into, into a cause and into a movement that was going to save lives. And I think for me there in the hospital, as I was delivering her, the symmetry and the beautiful synergy of, um, of the protection that. The cause spoke to, you know, to, to be able to protect children, animals that I dedicated my life to and vulnerable women because, you know, that was, was the most vulnerable point of my life. Um, I, my, my partner had left me during the pregnancy. I'd been a single mom. I'd been preparing to raise this child alone. Um, I was there having to go through this horrific thing. thing. And I wasn't able to protect my child, but yet, you know, I always had this passion, dedication for animals and just felt like the most perfect thing. Like what if somebody lived because she died? What if an animal was able to live because she died? What if a woman was able to be protected and to protect her children? Because I couldn't protect mine. And, um, And it just felt like the most powerful thing that I could do in her name. And it was like, Lucy's project as a name for the organization just felt so natural. So it felt like the most natural thing in the world. So I often say that the project was born at the same moment that she was born and came into existence in the same moment. And it really does. Inform a lot of the passion that I have for this work that that I know that it is the life and it is her. It is. It is her that does this work and it's and none of this would have happened without her. So so it remains her project. Um, and I'm really proud of how much we have achieved in the 10 years since her birth since that very first day. Um, where I know that. This is the cause that is recognized. It's no longer mocked. It's we, we have, we have a great language around that is, it is a movement and it's growing every day, which is something I'm, I'm incredibly proud of Lucy for

it's. I mean, it's so much to go through and I cannot imagine it. I think that it is amazing though, that you can honor her memory by helping some other people and helping animals like that is, that is a beautiful thing to be able to, to do. Like her legacy will continue.

Yeah, it's, it's, it's wonderful. I mean, I, I sometimes say that when I'm looking at a crowd of people that have just listened to me and they've just learned something about the link between domestic violence and animal abuse, I, I look out and I feel like I'm looking at her, I feel like there she is, that's what she's done. And it's, it is, it is beautiful. And it is, it is quite motivating to get through sometimes some very confronting issues. It was, I think one of the first. Problems that I ever have. And it is getting it is getting less thankfully. But one of the first problems I have when I talk about these issues is people wonder why I'm talking about domestic violence and animal abuse in the same breath. Why is that in the same sentence? What is the relationship between the two? Like, you know, why? Why are we talking about this? And it's one of those movements that I always say is a secret in playing in plain sight. So The first thing that happens when I start talking about the course, the first thing that happens, people say, why are you putting these things in the same sentence? And we say, well, look in Australia, I don't know the statistics specifically for the United States, and that's a very dense population. I'm sure there's great variation across the country, but Australia has one of the highest. numbers of companion animal and pet and animal ownership of any country in the world. Sadly, concurrently, we also have one of the highest rates of domestic and family violence. So when you think about that, it's obvious that there's going to be animals that are in the family. that is affected by domestic and family violence. And there's been some really interesting studies in Australia about the massive proportion, things like that. 83 percent of Australian households consider the family animal to be part of the family, to be a family member. And it seems to be a platitude that we throw around with something of abandoned to say, You know, the pets are my family. I consider, oh, you know, they're like one of the children, or the term such as fur baby. We look at them as parts of the family, but then suddenly when we talk about domestic violence, it's like they're removed. But they aren't. And they aren't. And what we found is some really disturbing statistics about 93 percent of people that flee a domestic and family violence situation with their animals are turned away from refuges because they have their animals with them, which causes, which forces either return surrender or, or very troubling a return to an unsafe home or animal abuse, which causes a form of coercive control or psychological abuse upon the person that has that bond with the animals. We literally cannot separate human risk or animal risk. In the time of domestic family violence, when a pet is a part of a household and in Australia, it is the majority. Now that majority increases dramatically when we start talking about regional, rural and remote people who tend to have not just one animal, they tend to have multiple animals and often animals of multiple different species. So they might have dogs and cats and cows and chickens. And those animals may very well be considered their companion animal. They might be farm animals that might be that person's livelihood and means of survival, but that might also be the companion chicken or the companion pig. And those animals are just as bonded to them as we might in, in, in more urban areas, consider our dog or cat. And, and so there's, there's a lot of issues around that, but I digress somewhat. I think the point that I was coming to is first, we wonder. Why we can't separate domestic violence and animal abuse. And as soon as I explain this to people, it's like a light bulb moment. Oh, that's so obvious. Oh, that is so obvious. Oh my goodness. It's an aha. Oh yeah, you're right. Actually. Why have I never thought about it? And as soon as they think about it, it's so, it's so obvious. It's so true. It's such a truism, which is so important, it's so important that we continue that advocacy and awareness, raising work so that people do continue to have those light bulb moments. The second thing that happens. At varying spade. Sometimes it's instantaneous. Sometimes it's a few hours later. Sometimes it's a couple of days later. People start to recall to me stories that they have of experiences that they've had in their own lives of when this has happened to them or when they've seen this. Oh, my next door neighbor. Oh yeah, that's right. When, There was a situation going on there and he came back and he killed the turtle or, you know, that's right, when my sister was going through a divorce, that's what happened to her dog, I was terribly sad. But it's almost like people have compartmentalized the animal part of the story. They haven't actually seen how central the animal has been. To the story of that person's story, that story of domestic and family violence, that story of survival. And it's those stories that have fallen off the primary picture that are sometimes the most critical. Um, and if, if I'm not talking too much here, am I right to keep going, Dr. G?

Yeah, no, you're good. You're good. Because yeah, it's really important to explain to people. I mean, like, a lot of people don't realize that these animals are a source of emotional support, right? So their family and people that are suffering through these experiences, through these traumas, need these animals more than, than You know, people that are not experiencing trauma,

That's precisely right, and when we start to drill down, when we have that first understanding, that first initial grasp that we can't separate family, we can't separate that bond instantly as soon as there's domestic and family violence, that we can't just say to people, care just about your children. We can't do that. We start to drill down to the why, and the why's are very, very critical. They're very critical, like you just identified, importantly, the bonds that children might have with those animals, the bonds that people might have with those animals, the support that they might need, that the animal might have been the only witness that anyone has ever had to the abuse. That animal may have suffered alongside them, that might have been abused beside them, the animal might have been a comfort to that person after. Abuse, that person might've been the reason that they continue to get out of bed in the morning because the dog needed a walk or the dog needed to be fed or the dog needed their medication. It gives that sense, that person a sense that their life has value and that their life has meaning without which they don't really see a reason to go on. It can be the most critical form of support for, for, for a person that has experienced significant abuse, but there's another person that gets left out so frequently, so commonly from the story. And I, I, I, I do hope that it's different in the States, but I doubt that it is, and that's the children. And when a person is frequently the mother of the family, or the female person of the family, not always, but most commonly, Um, is dealing with the breakup of the family, the removal to a safe place and the changing of the schools and the changing of addresses and the physical injuries and the psychological injuries and the trauma and all of the incredible amount of life administration that it takes. Who is looking after the emotional well being of that child? And frequently it's the family dog or the family cat that jumps up onto the child's face and licks their face and makes them laugh, or does that silly thing where they chase their tail or gets the child out into the sunshine to play ball. It's the animal who's soft fur the child cries into or holds or falls asleep with when the mother just has nothing left to give in that particular moment. There is that animal that is. And children are amazing at, um, at finding moments to live and to fully inhabit. And often we find that a child will have a recollection of very traumatic times by going back and remembering just this magical moment with an animal. Because children are very good at doing that. And I think that it's incredibly important that we don't forget the bond that that child may have with the animal. And leaving the animal is another trauma. that we would inflict upon a very traumatized child through an incredibly stressful period. The ability to keep families together is incredibly important for the well being of that child. It's also, as I've mentioned, very incredibly important for the adult survivor as well. Um, but I don't want to sideline children. I don't want them to be a footnote because it's been too long that the needs of children has been a footnote. But the other thing that we have to realize is for families, and this is a very common story where families are forced to leave an animal behind, is that sometimes the animal can be the reason that the person has to go back, often with their children, to a very unsafe home environment. The perpetrator will often threaten harm or cause a degree of harm to the animal and say that if you don't come home, there will be more of this. Um, and sending them distressing photographs or sending them distressing images or telling them distressing stories about what will happen. All you need to do to stop the abuse is come home. Um, and so often that's what happens. And the family are put back through the chaos, the uncertainty, and the cycle of abuse again because they've gone back to protect an animal. The sense of guilt and shame and responsibility that the person has to that animal. Um, can sometimes be one of the worst forms of abuse that that person can go through because it attacks them in the areas of their compassion, of their empathy, of their love, their sense of self worth and their sense of purpose, critical, harmful places to hurt a human being. And in case that that hasn't isn't enough to help people understand why we need to take this issue so critically, this is the one. This is the kicker. This is the one that keeps me awake at night. This is the one that I think we have known and done nothing about is that abuse to animals is one of the three most significant indicators of a perpetrator who will go on to commit homicide will murder the human victims. We know that it's up there with threats of suicide and owning a firearm. Particularly in Australia, where there's not as many firearms. We know that those three factors together, um, uh, heighten a person's risk of going on to be killed. We also know that perpetrators of animal abuse are some of the most dangerous perpetrators in our community. So this is not something that we can treat as that nice. furry fluffy issue on the side. It is impossible to remove the need to protect animals from the need to protect humans because animal protection is a human rights issue. And I think that we need to take those very sober, very, very humbling issues to heart and start to talk about these issues more, to take these issues more seriously and provide better. I think we have a human responsibility to take these issues more seriously.

Yeah, I think that some people mistake the fact that the perpetrators are not necessarily abusing the animal to satisfy themselves because they're, they want to abuse the animal. It's a means of control. It's a means of having somebody do something. And, uh, to your point, they will They will do it towards their partner, but they will do it towards the Children. I'm actually, I'm currently pursuing a master's degree in animal law for non attorneys. And that's one of the things that we have seen in one of the classes is the voices from these survivors saying how their partner You know, killed an animal or threatened to kill an animal just to just to make them compliant to make the Children comply and how difficult it was for them to leave. I believe the statistics here, at least in the United States, is that the average domestic violence victim will attempt to leave about seven times. I don't know if that's the same as what you see.

Yeah, it correlates seven to nine in Australia. Yeah.

So, uh, I know that there are, there are more and more states here in the United States that are including animals in protection orders for victims of domestic violence. Is that something that is occurring in Australia as well?

Yeah, look, theoretically it is. Um, in practice, there's not enough research and not enough funding into research to know the incidence of that. And I'm not sure if... Because there's been some recent legislative reform that's made that an easier thing to do in some states. So it's very hard to talk, you know, as it is in America to talk about, um, a national approach. Uh, but, you know, state by state it is, it is increasingly happening, but I don't think there's a level of awareness or the general public awareness or activism within, um, this, the domestic and family set violence sectors or the police force or enforcement, that's actually really drilling home just how critical that issue is. And we don't have the on how frequently that's occurring. And that's one of The projects that Lucy's project wants to take on is it's understanding those baselines better and understanding how that is increasing because it's not happening often enough. And of course, it's all complicated by the issues of animals being property. Which is an issue that, um, you know, legally speaking, we haven't found an alternative approach to that really works in a domestic and family violence setting. So if the animal is considered the legal property of the perpetrator, it can be incredibly difficult for the victim survivor to gain access and control of that animal in order to To to protect that animal on to take custody off that animal to take the animal away from the perpetrator unless they can prove somehow that they have assumed the primary care of that animal, the primary responsibility for the animal, which if you don't have a caseworker or a police that's understanding or cognizant of the importance of those issues, it's a little bit. Complicated. It's a mess. It's a mess. And, and I've spoken to a lot of police officers as well about, about how problematic that situation is. Do you feel like that's better in the States? You think that's handled better in the States? I

think that in some places it's starting to, so I know that, um, custody battles happen and now more and more they are like some more States are looking at animals, not simply as property more, but more as living property so that they evaluate. where the animal should go, taking into consideration the well being of the animal. Similar as how children are, are sent somewhere, you know, it should be based on the well being of the child. So some of these states that have these provisions for custody battles, uh, part of the well being of the animal is that the person that is going to retain custody of the animal is not a violent person and is not, uh, like a domestic violence perpetrator. So at least in that sense, even if, even if both, you know, if the, if the, uh, violent spouse is the one that purchased the animal, normally you would say, okay, well, that's the person that keeps it because they purchased the animal. Well, now they look into more than just simply who paid for it, who, who made the transaction. It's looked more from a well, wellness, uh, overall.

Mm. I like that approach. That's that's great. That's really inspiring. Lots of food for thought in that one. Um, I'd love to get to that point. I think that, you know, there's been some fantastic work done in the United States by the link coalition and, um, and Phil Arco in raising awareness and getting those issues out there and, and, and highlighting it to the world of just, just how much has been achieved in the states, um, I'd love to, I'd love to get to that same level here and keep Studying what you guys are doing over there. Uh, the link coalition's been, um, incredible in informing and informing our knowledge of what's happening. So thank you very much for, for that inspiration as well.

Yeah, and I, I think that overall, I mean, it, it is just difficult for people in general to understand why somebody would not leave an abusive relationship. And I think that one of the problems that then end up occurring is kind of like victim blaming. Uh, and it's such a complex. I'd say there's just so many reasons why people can be the victims of abuse, and there are so many different forms of abuse, right? So we, we only think about the physical abuse. We don't think about the emotional trauma, we don't think about like financial abuse and, and all these other things. And it, it, it brings about different challenges when people are trying to leave and then you add the animal to that equation and then it, it adds. Yet another level of challenge is, you know, how, how do you, I guess, how does your organization work with somebody that, that is in the process of trying to find resources and trying to find a way out?

I mean, Lucy's project made the decision early on in our formation that our primary focus is in removing systemic roadblocks to safety. So we. Decided not to be an organization that takes animals on ourselves or that rehomes people, because we know that that work, although there's a massive need for that work, would keep us busy enough that we wouldn't have time to go in and actually work toward creating, um, Creating the resources that people need. And it's an interesting question. Um, I'd like to hope that I can find the right place to start with that. Because that's quite a big question there. And we found often that, I don't know if this also correlates with stats, um, where you are, but A lot of people never actually go through domestic and family violence services. They actually, they actually, they find their own supports. They find their own resources. And we found that by helping people to have some tools in the time of crisis to know how they can find protection for their animals and protection, uh, and all the things that they need for their animal in the time of a crisis, a lot of people are able to, when resourced, find a lot of the solutions themselves within their friends and family network. But, you know, domestic and family violence, be that. Physical or be that emotional or financial it, any marital breakup or any relationship breakup or any family breakdown. Cause you have to remember family violence isn't always about a romantic union. It can be, you know, a family member that, that is, that is causing the strife within the family. Whatever that breakdown is, it is deeply traumatic. It is a time of chaos. It is a time of confusion and it can be very, very hard to find your way mentally through. Those challenges and sometimes just having a checklist that's ready at hand to know what you need to do to have someone who's got your back that believes in you, that sees you, that says, yep, okay, here's some things that you could you could check off and you could get organized for in order to find your way to safety. We found it's been really, really helpful for a lot of people. Um, you know, able to go, okay, well, I need to pack my animals, medication and their feet and their bedding and just that little bit of sort of structural support and the things that they're going to need to do in order to get out. Those sorts of resources have been really useful, but also we find, um, with frontline workers who are often incredibly overwhelmed. will come to us and say, we don't know how to support this client and actually doing some training with frontline workers on what the supports are in their areas, how they can access it, how they can support the client to find friends and family within their own network that might be able to help them. Because in Australia, there's just. An absolute paucity of resources for people with animals experiencing domestic and family violence. As I mentioned at the beginning of 93 percent of people that turned away. So what we need to do is think outside the box and be quite creative. So whilst we're very busily working with organizations and helping them to be pet inclusive and helping for organizations and networks to form alliances that. can offer more support to people with animals. In the immediate term, we're going to be having to think out of the box and find informal supports and helping people to look around them at where they might be able to find those supports and how. We've had a really tough time post COVID of shelters just overflowing with animals that have been abandoned, which, or surrendered, which has been incredibly challenging for people experiencing violence because it's even further reduced the access. that they have to those support services and to the level of exhaustion within animal services. So there's a lot of thinking out the box that has to happen constantly. I hope that, um, that answers your question there because there's just so many, so many different ways to talk about that. So, um, one of the things that I like to advocate for frequently, uh, is foster care networks for animals. There is a moment. When a crisis first occurs where a person is trying to find safe accommodation and being able to stay with the animal is sometimes just practically impossible. There's just too many moving parts and the instability is too great for the animal. So there might be, there might be short periods of up to 2 months where that animal might need foster care. But we also have to consider some fairly gruesome realities for people with animals and that is hospitalization and suffering trauma. from their injuries. They might be physically incapable for a period because of an assault to look after their animals. And without temporary foster care networks, uh, people are left with, with nowhere to go. And also thinking about mental health and periods of homelessness that occur after domestic and family. Violence. It's very important that we have foster care networks that are able to wrap around the family for more than just that initial crisis period. But over the next sort of few years as that family finds some stability and some healing from those traumas, those those crisis foster care networks might come back into play. So that's something that we focus on quite strongly. It's encouraging and speaking up about the need for crisis foster care networks. And I don't know what your experience has been in this sector, but I've, I often feel like people kind of get like micro focused on there being one solution, like if only all crisis foster, if only all crisis. women's refuges were able to take animals. That would solve the problem. And I'm like, well, yeah, like it might do for people that go through those refuges and it might do for the two months that they're in those refuges. But then what, you know, is it going on to interim housing? Is it going on to support them when they have the surgery to recover from a trauma a few years? You know, you know, six months down the line or a year down the line is it helping them if they experience homelessness in 12 months and and the answer is that there's no one solution that is ever going to do that. We need to. And this is something that Lucy's project looks at. We look at it from a 360 degree viewpoint. What are all of the different services? What are all of the different supports that that person needs? And how can we bring those into existence? How can we be, you know, bridging those gaps and filling in the space between services and having those services speak with each other and align with each other so that they are accessible and easy to refer to in a time of crisis and in the years following that. So that's what we do.

I had the opportunity to visit a facility called Interfaith Housing Network here in Ohio in Cincinnati, Ohio. And basically what they are is they are run by social workers, but they offer a couple of different services. And one of the services is like they do offer co housing, they have a place that people can go into and live for either short term or a little bit longer term, just until they get, you know, how to say stronger to be able to to move on on their own. And then they also help people with, as you were mentioning, the fostering. Um, you know, either them holding onto the animals kind of like as a rescue or boarding facility of sorts, uh, or providing assistance with foster care. And there's a really great organization called My Dog Is My Home that it just helps provide assistance, similar to how you're saying they don't work directly with the individuals, but they help with different organizations so that they can help provide all of the different things that they need because. Yeah, as you said, it's not just saying, okay, here, here's a place, here's a bed. Now you, you have a place to sleep. And the problem is solved is, you know, what do you need to stay to, to, to stay independent, right? Because it's not a matter of, okay, you got outta that relationship. Now you need to look for another relationship to survive. Right? Is no, how do you take care of you? And especially if you have children, how do you take care of you and your children and then your animals? So helping them with. Whether it be getting ready to, to look for a job or, you know, that all of those nuances that we don't think about when we're thinking about just basically getting away from a violent situation.

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And you know, like, you just reminded me that, you know, it's something that's really easy to talk about as well. You know, when we're going to be talking about The link between domestic violence and animal abuse. It's very easy to really focus on why we should care about these issues and what the humans might need. But there's a very animal, important animal issue in here that we can't forget as well is that we're talking about some quite traumatized animals. We might be talking about animals that have experienced some horrific violence, either themselves or witnessing or being raised in a household with high anxiety and high stress and seeing the people that they care about being harmed. And that can have some horrible effects on that dog. psychological well being. We see behaviors like anxiety, barking, separation anxiety. We see things like, um, sometimes aggression or, um, anti social, uh, behaviors that, that, uh, make that doable. You know, I think specifically about dogs as a default. Animal, but it could be any animal really that that has some behaviors that are then hard to handle that you can't necessarily just put into any, any home, but then that animal is going to need therapy of its own. It's going to need behavioral support. We often find that animals that come out of these homes haven't had adequate veterinary care or health care for a very long time. We hear horrible stories of animals that have been chained up in backyards and deprived of food and flea treatments and nail care and dental care and, and all these sort of fundamental health. needs. There's a massive vet bill that sometimes comes with that animal finally being able to be in a safe place. Um, and we can't forget how important it is for there to be somebody that's animal trauma informed as well, able to be there and why it's important that we fund that aspect of domestic violence as well, because that is, that is important. is part of the whole story of domestic and family violence and rehabilitation. Uh, some of the hardest parts of the work that I do is, is looking through the sexual abuse of animals and the traumatized. I mean, there's some stuff I find even hard to obliquely mention or to even obliquely make reference to, um, especially when it comes to children, animals and sexual abuse. That is so deeply problematic that we need to be looking at that holistic sort of post trauma recovery period as well, uh, and addressing the traumas that people have experienced that do relate to animals, animal welfare and animal well being. Um, and sometimes it can even be the case that that person cannot be around animals because of what they've experienced. So there is no singular answer, there is no singular experience, and there's no singular solution. There's just a lot of work to be done. And I just, I guess I... I live in the hope that perhaps if we had greater awareness of the link between domestic violence and animal abuse, perhaps if we had a greater awareness of how important this stuff was, and we were able to take it more seriously and faster, it wouldn't get to those incredibly intense, like so many of those incredibly intense case studies that are just so deep and so incredibly traumatic with such horrible outcomes for people and such horrible outcomes for animals that, um, I hope we can avoid some of them. I hope that some of them will be nipped in the bud, as it were. But it starts with awareness and starts talking about these issues. So I'm so grateful to you for for platforming this issue and I hope that somebody hears this and does take animal abuse more seriously. And one of the things that we talk about as well is that animal abuse can, I don't believe. The statistics are something like, oh gosh, what are they five times a person who abuses animals is five times more likely to go on and abuse humans. But, I just see almost no instances. I don't see many instances. I can't think of any examples of where somebody has abused an animal stops there. You know, someone that abuses an animal or is harmful towards an animal is unlikely to be a person that you are safe to be around. And so if we were to take animal abuse seriously, if we were able to actually just look at that issue and go, that is not something that is acceptable to me. This is not something that's acceptable in a modern society. I wonder how many human lives we'd save. And if we could stop trivializing one issue over the other, if we could stop the victim blaming, if we could stop the, you know, this, this. This issue, we don't like the sort of triaging of what matters most. If we could just take these issues that are egregious abuses of a living being's rights, if we could take them more seriously, I just wonder what a kind of world we'd be living in and how many of these abuses we would be able to, to solve before they became so serious.

Yeah, so many people start with animals, right? Because they're they're easy victims. They don't tell anybody. They can't tell anybody. And they're just defenseless. You know, we think about dogs. Okay, the dog can bark or the dog can bite. Yeah, it doesn't matter. Somebody that is abusive is going to to take advantage of that relationship. And that and the link is extremely important. Uh, A few weeks ago, I interviewed Mark Randall from the UK, and we were discussing about the importance of investigating the animal crimes as a way to protect society, as a way to protect community. He was telling about a story of some, of some, uh, kids that were killing dogs, and then they escalated to start killing homeless people. So, uh, we also see that with, for instance, like dog fighting that you go into a dog fighting thing. It's not just about the dogs that are being harmed. It's about all the other human crimes that are going on around it. Uh, I have, I was involved in the investigation of the evaluation of a case where a child sexually assaulted a dog. And then after investigating found out that the child itself was being, uh, sexually assaulted by its stepfather. So, you know, by, by. Taking the animals more seriously, we can have a better hope of helping society, you know, using the animals as sentinels if anything.

Absolutely, absolutely right. Absolutely right. Whenever I hear a story in the news of some horrific abuse that some human has caused toward another human, I go, Oh, it's gonna be a matter of time until something comes out in the news that this person has done something to animals. And vice versa. And vice versa. And it's shockingly accurate how often that happens. If people start to notice that in their own lives, I think we'll start to take animal cruelty more seriously for sure. Um, it doesn't, this stuff doesn't happen in a vacuum and it doesn't happen for animal abuse does not happen with a healthy person or from a healthy mind.

Yeah. And I think it's important for parents to, to recognize signs. You know, and not shy away from if they see that their kids are perhaps being abusive of animals, or, you know, too many people feel shamed. And it's like, well, I don't want people to know that my kid is doing this, or my kid is thinking these things, and they don't do anything. And then that allows it to escalate. You know, we love our kids, we have to. do better for them. So really important for parents to hone in into these little, little things and understand that it, it's small right now, but it can escalate and their kid could become, you know, somebody violent in the future.

Some interesting, some interesting work to be done there. I just think. So much of this stuff needs to be better understood and better researched. And, and first and foremost, better recognized, we need to, you know, we need to see the stuff that is happening in plain sight because as much work as we've done and the link coalition has done, I still feel like this is a, this is considered one of the lesser known issues and one of the lesser known causes, and it definitely needs greater visibility. It is a really, really, really important issue. Uh, I love the work Matt Randall does. Uh, it's, it's chilling sometimes to sit through one of his presentations because you just realize. How many red flags we're missing and how many how many opportunities there are to make a safer world and just what the correlations are. The power, I think, and the possibilities there when we listen to it is what we really need to do is a takeaway when we understand. I mean, he's got some fantastic work showing co occurrence of of animal and human abuse and early warning systems. We have some of the most serious crimes. We had a case in Australia recently of horrible siege that a family attacked some police officers. They had delusions and attacked and killed some police officers. delusions It was horrible. It was a shock to the nation, uh, how violent and how sudden and how, um, without warning this, this attack was. And then in the news, a couple of days later, there was stories of this guy who was, uh, you know, the perpetrator was a principal at a children's school and he used to sit in the playground and slaughter pigs so that the pig blood would roll onto the, onto the basketball court while children were playing. This was happening in plain sight. This was open knowledge. This was known, and this is one of the problems with animal protection as well. He kills an animal that is socially acceptable to be able to kill. So we look at a pig being killed and go, yeah, because pigs are an animal that are socially acceptable to kill. So we say that people eat, you know, whether you're vegan or vegetarian or what have you, we understand that, that pigs are an animal that are commonly raised. to be slaughtered. And so if, if a pig is slaughtered, it doesn't raise the same kind of level of shock that it does to slaughter a dog in plain sight. I don't think that's something that people would have ever looked past, but we have to understand as well, it's not normal to slaughter a pig in the middle of the road. It's not normal to be okay and to have that level of comfort with slaughtering an animal in front of children. This is just not something that we do. And we need to lose that perception that animal cruelty is okay for some species and not for other species. We need to realize that it doesn't matter if the animal is a companion animal, such as a dog or a cat, or that animal is a farmed animal. If that animal is being treated with cruelty, that person is not safe. If that animal is treating animal slaughter as something that is not a big deal, I don't care what the circumstances are, if they're doing it as if it's just something that you would do, like, Don't, don't, I'm trying to think of an example of something we do every day, waving in the street, you know. If we think it's that blasé, there is something very wrong. Um, and we need to be very careful, I think it's a really important issue to take into consideration, because people think it was just a feral cat. It was just a mouse. It was just a feral rabbit. It was, you know, insert word feral or pest and it's okay. It is never okay. It is never healthy to take the life of another being in a way that is done to cause distress to another living being. That is never okay. The value of that animal's life is not in this particular instance, the core fundamental problem. And this is something that we see that happens a lot. Within our sector as well is, is how trivialized and minimalized it is if that animal was a, was a so called pest animal or an unwanted animal. If a person is killing or harming an animal in a way that is intended to cause harm to another human being, it doesn't matter if that was your beloved pet or if that was a feral pig. It is not okay. It is dangerous behavior and is indicative of some really troublesome behavior you can expect in the very near future. Um, and it's not okay for that animal. I would never condone the killing of any animal in a harmful way for, for, you know, for whatever reason, but I think that society has a, it's, it's just a cat and we trivialize cats, we demonize cats, we treat. cruelty to cats as if it's so much less important than, say, cruelty to dogs. And in Australia, we have this horrible reality where we think that it's okay to kill kangaroos and you can do horrible things to kangaroos and children are taken out on kangaroos. Waters and shown horrible ways of killing kangaroos, but it's entirely lawful killing. And it might be used as a form of punishment for that child or coercive control for that child, but it's legal. Just because it's legal. We need to take a look at the fat, or lawful, we should say. Just because it's lawful doesn't mean that there's not a form of abuse that's going on there in the killing or the harming of an animal. Um, and I think that's a, that's. Yet and yet another one of the many layers that we need to start looking into is is not just is it okay to slaughter that animal, but how is that being slaughtered? And is it being slaughtered in a way that is trying to control or coerce a person into bending to the will of the perpetrator?

Yeah, I have a huge problem when, when, when children are taken to hunting type activities, because the adult may realize or understand what's happening, but that kid does not understand. They, they're, they're not processing the purpose. They're just processing the action. And if anything, it can lead to a sense of Desensitization, right? So they, they start losing care for the action of killing that animal. And it's not just, it's not a huge leap to go from being desensitized, from killing a cat to then killing something bigger and then extending it, expanding it to killing a human.

One of the things that keeps me awake at night, I mentioned before that, you know, the risk of lethality, the other thing is something I put to me many, many years ago and it really stuck with me is that when a child is born, the first thing that we do is we ask them to relate to animals and they will relate to animals well before they relate to the adult world. So the first thing we do is we might give them a teddy bear. Or we might decorate their nursery with baby ducks, or we might give them, you know, you know, a rubber ducky for their bath or, you know, all of the, all of the characters have got this sort of infantile animal sort of presence to them in their, in their life. And so children do see themselves in animals and they see, they relate to the animal world around them or the child, the childlike innocence of an animal before they ever relate to the adult world. And so when we do take a child's. And when we do traumatize an animal or hurt an animal, we might as well just be hurting the child because they are relating to and empathizing with that, with that animal. And so I don't disagree with you at all with what you were saying about hunting and how damaging that can be for a young mind or any form of, we desensitize children all the time to animal cruelty, telling them what is and is not okay. And it can have a real effect on, on children's ability to form empathy. And it can have an effect on children's self esteem as well. And that's like a whole minefield that we can. Do a whole separate discussion on another time and probably with an expert better qualified than myself to talk about child psychology. But what I was talking about as well before was, was quite intentional abuse of that child's naivety and quite intentional abuse of that child's psychological wellbeing. Whereas if the child did not acquiesce to the wishes of the perpetrator, I'm going to take you out and show you what I will do to this animal and kill it in front of you. I know that you don't want to go. I know that you're screaming, stop daddy, stop. I don't want this to happen or whoever the perpetrator is, but they're going to do it as a form of control and punishment for the child. and, uh, and the child will be traumatized, will be horrified, uh, will be distressed. But what can they do? They turn around and dad's like, well, I'm a hunter. It's my job. That's what I do. Or this is lawful. And people, what, what can you say to that? What defense does that child have? Who's going to take that child's back? And it's really important that we start to have those conversations in a broader sense about the psychological trauma that animal abuse inflicts on children and, uh, and understand it might be lawful. It doesn't make it right.

Yeah, I think that we're starting to see it here in cases of, for instance, like dogfighting, that it's a, it's now a felony in all 50 states to engage in dogfighting, but then it's also a felony to take a child to be a spectator in it, because they are realizing the damages that, that just seeing that kind of violence, you know, results in a child. And children that are... Or that experiences are more likely to grow up and then be abusers and, and commit crimes themselves.

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. It's great to hear that there's more of a conversation around that. It's critical.

So, where is your organization now, and where do you see it going from here?

Oh, that's a really hard question. Oh my goodness. Oh my goodness, we've just been through absolute storm. We're just on the, we're just like in the, we've just been through an absolute storm. We, we ran out of money 18 months ago. We were, we were facing collapse actually, because we just didn't have any funds. And I just, I just went. Gave up my all and threw my everything into it and went cap in hand to the New South Wales government and which is one of the states in Australia, uh, and begged for some money. I just said, it's this or we can't exist. And they, to their enormous credit and to the incredible advocacy of, of, of Emma Hearst of the animal justice party and, and, and her persistence, we were, uh, Lucky and securing some funds, but we only got those funds significant operational funds. We only got those funds in July 1st of July this year. So we have been since 1st of July being trying to restart our core activities and pick ourselves up and get out there and be of service again. So at the moment, what we're doing is we are we are surviving and we have funding for the next two years and nothing after that. So sure. It's just looking at looking at, um, at making sure that we do the most effective project that we can for the next two years. And I think, as I mentioned earlier. My passion is to look at systems and ensuring that unnecessary roadblocks are permanently removed. So that no matter what happens in the future, it's a permanent impact and permanent change and embedding into as many minds as we can, the importance of understanding the link between domestic and family violence and, and really embedding that knowledge, inculcating that knowledge into the minds of. service organizations that animals must be included in safety planning and helping those organizations to have the safety planning tools, the education, the training that they need to know how to, in the very first instance, provide for animals for something that we get so commonly because these issues are trivialized as it's 5 p. m. On a Friday afternoon, I've got this dog and there's nowhere to go. Can you take it? And the answer is no, we can't. But if you told me about this six weeks ago when you started working with this case, then the answers would have been multiple. There would have been so much we could do if you had at the point of intake accounted for taking knowledge of the animals that were in that person's care. You have a whole host of options available to you. But if you leave it to the 11th hour, there is nothing except devastation and heartbreak. And so one of the things that I hear commonly is for people who were forced to surrender their animals. Many, many, many years ago, you know, up to 30 years ago, I've heard these stories. It's the hardest thing sometimes for those people to forgive themselves for, and to get past that they said that they abandoned their best friend. And I can't imagine, you know, the relationship that I have with my animals. If I ever abandoned them, I know I would never, no matter what the circumstances for me personally, I know I would never recover. From that, because the bond that I have with them, they are my everything. They are my world there. You know, I know that, you know, I have children now. I have living children as well. And I, you know, I would, you know, I don't need to tell any parent or anybody really that I would, you know, die for my children, of course. But how important my pets are, like. My animals are to me, it's just as that sense of duty is, is just as strong. It's different, but it's just as strong. Um, and I, I never want anybody to have to, to have to go through, to have to go through that, and I know that I couldn't. I know that I've been tried and tested and couldn't. But, um, so that's what we're looking at doing. Uh, and then always looking for projects that are the best way to get those messages out. I have, you know, there's some really exciting things that we have in the pipeline and I'm so desperate to tell you about them, but I can't because we haven't, we haven't got the funding to get them going and we haven't got them approved through. The board and through, um, you know, we were still in planning stages for a lot of really exciting things, but we have some really exciting projects working with animal organizations and working with domestic and family violence organizations in education and training and this work that we do. That we've been calling aware arc, which is a 360 degree look at communities and going into communities and resourcing the entire community. So, in every aspect of their services to make sure that human and animal services are connected and working together and know who they can refer to, how they can refer to them, what kind of information the other person needs, how, what they're going to do with that information, how to keep a person safe, because, you know, there's this whole aspect we haven't spoken to. In this conversation, which is about a human safety for animal services that are dealing with animals that are victims of domestic and family violence because human like animal rescue services often run by volunteers that don't have extensive training that don't have access to safety planning mechanisms and tools and the risk that vets and animal services are put into when they are dealing with these very dangerous perpetrators. I mean, look, how long do you want this interview to be? But okay. When we start talking about an animal that is surrendered to an animal shelter, um, sometimes by a, a person experiencing violence, and that animal is owned by a perpetrator of violence, and then, then, then I don't know how it works in the States, but here, if the name's on the microchip and they are the registered owner. Then that shelter cannot assume the ownership of that animal unless they have permission from the person named on the microchip. So even though in good faith, a victim has said, I can't take the animal. Please look after it. They're then obliged because they've got the property of another being to get in touch with the perpetrator. That animal goes straight back to the perpetrator and that victim survivor is in the same position that they left a couple of days earlier or that day of having them go, I've got your dog. I'm going to harm your dog. You better get home with the kids. You know, you're right back into that position. But then they've got, but then if they do take on the animal. And there's a perpetrator that's looking for that animal because what they're trying to do is they're trying to find the victim survivors whereabouts or they're trying to harm them, then those animal service workers are also in harm's way with some very dangerous perpetrators. And if they don't necessarily know about that because they haven't. They don't have the full picture. They're just there on the front line. And so it's a really dangerous and scary situation for them. There has been cases in the U. S. of vets that have been attacked, uh, with domestic and family, through domestic and family violence and perpetrators coming in to try to reclaim a dog from a victim survivor. I think there was even a vet that was killed in the United States. And there's been panic buttons and many assaults. Um, But we know that often vets suspect domestic and family violence and they don't know what to do about it because they have the animal training and not the human training. So Lucy's project kind of likes to look at that from a 360 degree view and go, Hey, both you, that we need to be a conduit of communication between those human and animal services. We need to be working together. We need to be keeping everybody in a story safe. We need to make sure that the animal is not a mobile tracking device. For the victim survivor, and we need to make sure that the workers themselves aren't aren't in harm's way because they're in good faith taking on an animal that a perpetrator is interested in finding. And this is just like a minefield of just so many different issues that we could talk about with traceability of animals we haven't even gotten into how difficult that is with, you know, especially in Australia with very strict biosecurity laws and trace an animal traceability is incredibly important for for biosecurity reasons. But then if that is a companion animal. And you basically become like, very, very hard to hide your whereabouts or to do things in secret. So there's, there's a lot of issues there to consider. And these are all the things that we think about because it's also really important for us to not sideline, um, rural regional and remote living people and the particular issues that they are facing in their communities as well. So it's a lot of work there to be done on, on, on. Those systems getting information out there, creating resources, creating tools, um, and supporting organizations to upskill and strengthen their own supports. Where are we going?

Just, just a little bit. Right. No, but that's, that's great because as the, one of the things that I do, I have a mobile veterinary clinic and we travel through a lot of rural areas, offering affordable and accessible care because it with, with animal, animal neglect, you see intentional neglect, which I see as a forensic veterinarian, but then as a regular veterinarian, I see unintentional neglect, just people that can not afford to take care of their animals. So. It is very similar to kind of like a project that we are trying to get together, which is involving social workers and then going to these areas that are veterinary deserts and the animals have no care, but then also the people have no resources so that we can go in. Help the animals, but then help the people be able to sustain the, the care for their animals, right? Instead of just trying to go and point fingers and say you should not have a dog because you're not taking proper care of Them is how can I help you keep this dog? Because I know that this dog is an important source of support for you and you are an important source of support for this animal Like the dog doesn't care. The dog or the cat doesn't care that the owner doesn't have any money, right? The dog or the cat doesn't care that the owner can't buy them the best food. They just care that they're there. So just, you know, that whole One Health approach, the taking care of the people and taking care of the animal. So I see that, you know, kind of like the project and where you see yourself going, even though it's different. Aspects of human and an animal care, but it's still, you know, looking at everything together because we cannot take the animal away from the person and the person away from the animal. Like it's all one, uh, to, to the words of Alicia Kennedy, they're one unit and you have to treat them as such.

Alicia Kennedy's amazing, the work that she's doing through, through Cherish Pets. She's just such an inspiration to me and such an asset to Australia. Um, as is, I don't know if you've come across the amazing, um, Jennifer Howard of Safe Pets, Safe Families in Australia, just the most amazing people working in the sector. But I mean, I just love this work that Alicia and others are doing. Um, there's, I could, I, there's a lot of people that I could name here in the social veterinary work space. Um, and it's just, it's just so important that we understand that One Health idea and we understand how integrated they are. And I'm so excited that this entire profession now is coming into being to, to better support people with animals and understanding the human animal bond and its absolute centrality in, in, in welfare.

So if anybody listening is interested in learning more about your organization and perhaps helping with donations or funding some of these projects, how can they find out more about Lucy's project?

Yeah, so many ways. Thank you for asking that. Um, Always, uh, we, we do maintain a website which is helpful for international people if they want to know about us at any time of the day. Um, so that's lucysproject.com.au. Even if you just go to lucy project.com, you'll, it'll direct you to us. Um, you can always email me at info@lucysproject.com. And, um, and get in touch with us that way. Check us out on Instagram or on Facebook. We will be increasing our social media presence and the information that we share that way over the coming weeks as well, so that you'll be able to stay informed of what we're up to and some more information as it comes to hand. I always welcome any kind of email if you want to get in touch with me and talk about anything. You can always catch me, catch me by email. And we always really welcome, um, donations or people that would like to, particularly donations that are tied to awareness raising. So we like really encourage people, would you like to have a morning tea at your workplace and talk about these issues? Or is there somewhere that you'd like to kind of platform this stuff? Maybe a charity fundraiser for a community event where this can just be an issue that we start to talk about and start the discussion about the importance of human safety and animal safety. Um, and if anybody is interested in doing that, I'm. Always super keen to hear, especially when there's an awareness raising aspect in that, if you'd like to get involved, wherever you are in the world, we'd love to hear from you.

I love it. I love education. I mean, I think that that's the way to move forward, right? Like the more people know, the better they can do. I, it's been amazing having you. As a guest, I've loved this conversation and everything that you, that, that you have to offer. And I want to thank you for everything that you do for people and for animals. Uh, is there anything, any words of wisdom that you want to tell our listeners on, you know, as, as we close?

Oh, my goodness. You know, it's hard to stop me talking when you start, but when I start, but you know, the first thing I want to just echo really, it's just how grateful I am to you for platforming this issue for the incredible work that you do and getting the information out there. And just a huge thank you to you and everyone that's listening to this, especially listening to it right to the end. Thanks for taking the time and giving this issue some of your space and attention. If you could go and tell one person or two people about the link. And you could go out there, you're going to have a really big impact on our awareness globally, on the importance of these issues, doesn't matter where you are in the world, it's going to be the same issue wherever there is a human life, an animal life in danger, there's going to be human life at risk. So thank you so much for forming issue in our organization.

And thank you. And hopefully we can have you again. Once you start some of these amazing projects, you, we can have you again as a guest and talk about where, you know, where you are and where you're going at that point,

I'd fall over myself to have another chat with you. Thank you so much. It's been really enjoyable.

Fantastic. Well, thank you everybody. That's listening and thank you so much for caring.