[00:00:00] Hannah: Hi, this is the Awfully Quiet podcast, and I am. So in awe of the conversation I just had, I can't wait to dive in. I wanna tell you a little bit about Anai Naval, who I spoke with today. She's the founder of the Confidence Agency and the way she came into my life and the way I, learned about her in the first place was so, so beautiful.

It was all through Haley Dawson, who I had on the podcast a couple of weeks ago, and then she connected me to Anai. I was actually. On holiday in Creed. And one morning as I was sipping my morning coffee, I got this email connecting the two of us, and sort of saying, look, Anai works in the confidence space.

I know that you are running this platform for introverts, awfully quiet, quietly ambitious people. And so I think your worlds collide beautifully and you should definitely meet. And so. We had a conversation, we, hit it off right away. I feel like we both connected so beautifully because we both come from corporate spaces and have now started, I don't wanna say side hustles or side businesses, but we've now started companies and platforms and organizational.

An agency is what Anai started. She's the founder of the Confidence Agency, which is a killer name. And so we hit it off right away and then we decided to record an episode together, have a conversation more deeply on confidence on what confidence means, and what this ended up becoming really is something that.

Is not the usual confidence talk, which was really important for me. It's not the loud fleshy, you know, let's talk about how we can show up in a way that suggests power and boss vibes, but rather how do we find confidence within ourselves and how do we then. Express that confidence in the workplace. How do we bring that to life in a way that feels like us, that doesn't feel fake, that doesn't feel like we're pretending to be someone else?

We talked a lot about how do you show up as yourself and not as some other version that you think everybody else wants to see. And personally anai, this brings such great energy. I do say this in the podcast. It's amazing how you can draw from her. From her vibe, from her energy. She's very positive, but she also has a beautiful story on, and a journey on confidence and how she became somebody who now puts herself out there and goes out of her comfort zone.

And so the perfect conversation for this podcast, for this show, and yeah, I can't wait for you to dive in. If you resonate with this episode, we would love to hear from you, message myself or Anise. Leave a five star rating if you feel generous. It helps more people find the podcast, and if you feel like this could benefit a friend of yours, send them the episode.

I would love that. Without further ado, let's get into the interview. And ais, thank you so much for joining me today, and welcome to the Awfully Quiet Podcast.

[00:03:27] Anais: Thank you so much for having me. I'm so excited.

[00:03:30] Hannah: I, yeah, I, I can't wait for us to dive in. we've had a wonderful first conversation and I always feel once you're warmed up a little bit to a person, at least for me, it feels like, it's easier to ease in and to, and to make it feel like, you know, an open conversation, which,Wonderful. Where I wanna start is, with a question that I ask every guest on the podcast, and it's all about quiet strength.

Do you have quiet strength that potentially gets underestimated that, that has helped you in your career?

[00:04:01] Anais: That's a great, great question. And I would say for me it's listening to your intuition or listening to my intuition.To me, intuition is like a quiet knowing. Like knowing something is a yes or no or just like a, maybe you're not really sure about it, which typically means no. And I think we tend to separate that in like private life and work life.

and a few years ago I was working in a company kind of about to launch this big internal engagement campaign, had written some comms. And then this one paragraph just didn't feel right and everything had been signed off. Like everything was good to go, but this one paragraph just didn't sit right with me and I didn't, I don't know why.

Like, I didn't know why. and I remember speaking with my manager and I was like, something just like, feels, feels off. I can't explain it. and she said. Something that really stuck with me, which is if something feels off, always trust it and wait. And since then I was like, oh, so you can also kind of use intuition in the workplace, like that's allowed.

and that was at the beginning of my career. And then since then, like always like I lead with a lot of heart and the work that I do at say.

[00:05:17] Hannah: I love that. Did you end up changing that paragraph? What happened?

[00:05:20] Anais: So we, we, yeah, cliffhanger, we ended up, waiting and then it made sense later why that paragraph shouldn't have gone out because like there were other business things going on, and I think like. Intuition, you can see it as something that doesn't have data or I think in the world it's like everything needs to be quite a corporate world.

Everything needs to be quite logical. But sometimes like your brain will pick up things without making it very obvious, like whether it is someone's body language or someone said something and it could mean something, but you just don't pick it up consciously, but it will fuel your intuition. and then sometimes it's just like a gut feeling.

You don't know where it's from, but it's just, it's guiding you and you need to trust it.

[00:06:06] Hannah: You know what? I love that. And kudos to your manager at the time. I feel like when once you, you know, have proven yourself in the workplace and people know you a little bit, it is easier to, you know, go from or go with a gut feeling or, or just say, you know what, something inside me is screaming at me. You know, this needs to be different, or this doesn't feel quite right.

But, it's also, it also takes courage to then go out and say it, as you say, in an environment that basically is very much deadline driven. Like, things need to go out, things need to be approved, and then you either go with them or they don't happen on time. And so, I love that example from that perspective because it shows that nothing is really that urgent.

And if something feels wrong, it is so much better to, trust your intuition and, and change it.

[00:06:53] Anais: Yeah. And understand why, like I think you could, you can listen to it, but then like why? Why is it it? Where does it come from? Like is it something you understand in hindsight? Is it something about you? Is it something about the other person? Like why does something feel off potentially or like a really big grain flag?

Yes. And that has been like, I think the must. The most like underrated guide for me, just like listening to like first impressions, what that kind of gives me as an emotion. or like when I make a decision, like does it feel like a yes? And I think it comes down to confidence as well, like trusting yourself,

[00:07:35] Hannah: Hmm.

[00:07:36] Anais: and being confident enough to like, know yourself and trust yourself.

[00:07:40] Hannah: Yeah, well, what a brilliant bridge into today's conversation could not, could not have gone better. what I've prepared for you and I is for my audience to get to know you a little bit and we'll do a little bit of quick fire, like a, like a, this or that. and I've seen that to hopefully, you know, nail what you're gonna talk about today and what you are all about.

So, The first one is big stage or one-on-one conversation.

[00:08:09] Anais: Do I have to choose?

[00:08:11] Hannah: Is it right in the middle?

[00:08:13] Anais: It's right in the

[00:08:14] Hannah: Mm-hmm.

[00:08:15] Anais: So I, I'm a coach, so one-on-one conversations I love. I'm very deep. I would've like, growing up I used to call myself the unlicensed therapist because I would like end up in a DMC at a party. that is me. Like I love connection and I think you get so much out of getting to know someone, one-to-one, that you can't necessarily get in a group.

But I think also a big stage is a great way to build inspiration, to have community, to convey a message at a bigger scale. I used to be really scared of public speaking now. I love it. And I think it's a big part. Well, it is a big part of what I do. so I would say I sit in the middle for sure.

[00:09:05] Hannah: I love that. I'll take it. The next one is listening quietly or speaking up boldly.

[00:09:15] Anais: These questions are so hard. I think again, it depends on the situation. in leadership. Listening quietly is very important. I love the quote that's like, leaders speak last. you need to be able to bring other voices in the room. And if you have a very imposing personality, which is amazing, it takes a little bit of self-awareness as well to be like, Ooh.

Let other people have space, but then sometimes you need to be really bold and you need to speak up when no one is speaking up for something. You need to be the one leading the way. And I definitely in my career have had to like jump outta my comfort zone and try things that have never been done before.

That seems to kind of be my past. So. I think again, it takes both. It takes like listening and understanding and letting other people also have shine and speak up and creating the space for them too. But at the same time, sometimes you just need to lead the way and speak up when no one else wants to.

[00:10:23] Hannah: You know what? I think I'm, I'm loving your answer, so I'll let it slide. I think the next one, I'm pretty sure the next one is going to be a this or that. So

[00:10:32] Anais: Okay.

[00:10:32] Hannah: it's, it's planning ahead versus improvising in the moment.

[00:10:37] Anais: Ooh. So I would say now, improvising in the moment because. Because all the planning is great and you'll make a plan. Things will come up and you'll need to change it. And I think adaptability in life, in work, in anything is one of the most underrated skills again. and you'll need to sway your path. And if your plan is so rigid, it'll kind of hold you back a little bit.

So I would say my scale. Is going a little bit more towards improvising because that's kind of life. Life. You have to improvise a lot and change a lot.

[00:11:20] Hannah: Yeah, no true. Absolutely true.power pulse or deep breath before a meeting.

[00:11:29] Anais: I would do a deep breath.but power posing works as well, and that's one of the things that I like. Teach with the agency. Why I do a deep breath is because I feel like that recenters me and that kind of levels and grounds me. and power posing is more about like putting your energy out there and like claiming the space and I feel like I maybe naturally do that now.

So I would need to ground myself more.

[00:11:58] Hannah: Mm mm Certainly calms your nervous system to like take a deep breath and like center. Yeah, for

[00:12:06] Anais: Yeah.

[00:12:08] Hannah: The next one is giving advice or asking great questions.

[00:12:13] Anais: Asking great questions. I think, so one of the best pieces of advice I've ever gotten was from my dad, when I was in school and I was writing this report and I was just like struggling to write it. Partially because I wasn't super inspired, but also because it was hard for me to find the information online.

and it had to be like series and everything. And he said this thing that like I've used ever since in life and in work, which is you are not supposed to look for the right answer. You're supposed to look for the right question and then you have your answer.

[00:12:49] Hannah: Wow, that is killer advice right there. And so often, isn't it like that, that by asking the right question, it's almost like giving advice or at least facilitating advice in any way. Right. Love

[00:13:02] Anais: It, it was like a great, great thing. And it's true, like whether it is like in business, in work, in your career, in in life, like when you find the right question, you know your answer. 'cause you know your answers deep down. And that's all what coaching is about as well. Just asking the right questions because you have all of the answers within you.

[00:13:25] Hannah: Yeah, true. Love that very much.confidence as armor or confidence as energy.

[00:13:34] Anais: Confidence is energy.

[00:13:36] Hannah: Hmm.

[00:13:36] Anais: I think it takes a lot of vulnerability to be. Confident and vulnerability is to me also courage. and I think the more well, to be confident, you need to be authentic and you need to learn about yourself and go inwards. So it's not about having a shield, it's about helping you shine and give you the tools to embody what you want to embody.

So it's definitely more from within and empowering than something to protect you.

[00:14:10] Hannah: Mm mm That builds a perfect bridge into what we wanna talk about today, and it's all about confidence. you are the founder of the Confidence Agency, which is a killer name, isn't

[00:14:22] Anais: Thank you.

[00:14:23] Hannah: And where I wanna start is, do you have a personal story that. Helps us understand what led you to, or what drew you into confidence and what led you to start your work on confidence.

Why does confidence matter to you?

[00:14:40] Anais: What a question. can I share two stories?

[00:14:43] Hannah: can share two stories. Yeah.

[00:14:46] Anais: Thank you.so I would say first, like I've. Not always been the most confident person. I, it's confidence is not something you're born with. and I think confidence can be misinterpreted for being very loud and very extroverted. which is not true confidence.

So I remember when I was, I think I was like 15, I'd read this book in class. So we all had to read this book in Spanish class and we were potentially going to present it in front of the whole classroom. And so we came back from holidays and we're now sitting in room in the room and the teacher's gonna ask everyone to like share.

I am like not liking public speaking at all. So I'm like crawling into my seat being like, don't pick me. Don't pick me. Don't pick me. You know, like, you know the feeling. Yeah. Don't pick me. and the person sitting next to me was like, it's fine. I'm like, no, I don't. I I just don't wanna go up there in front of the whole classroom and share in Spanish what I learned about this book.

So of course with this mindset of being like, don't pick me, and basically like hiding under my desk, the teacher goes, Annie, can you share? So I'm like, okay, here we go. And I go on stage, not on stage, on like, it felt like a stage, but in front of the classroom by them, by the whiteboard. I'm holding this book and I'm sharing in Spanish what the book is about, and I'm like shaking.

I'm feeling so uncomfortable. I just wanna like not be there. and from the outside it probably wasn't that bad. You could see that I was nervous, but I just didn't feel confident there up there. and I remember saying like, this book is really exciting, but the word exciting in Spanish didn't really match.

So people were kind of like chuckling a little bit and I was like, oh my gosh, get me out of here. Do my thing. Sit down. So. And it was fine, and the person next to me was like, it's fine. It wasn't that bad. She was trying to help me a little bit because I just did not look confident. and a little bit later I was like, I so admire people who can do a TED talk and who are up on stage, and they're just like being really, really authentic and sharing a message.

Why can that not be me? Like, why can I not admire that skill about myself? And I think skill is the right word here. Like confidence is something you build and it's something you try, you learn, and every time you do it, you become better and better and better. So I kind of had this aha moment. I was like, okay, let's, let's just do it and let's like say yes to opportunities and let's start building the skill.

And now today I love public speaking. I love it because it helps me also be really authentic. I talk about things I care about and that is a massive difference. and I've spoken in front of like a thousand people and doesn't mean that I wasn't a little bit like nervous before, but I feel very confident and comfortable on stage because.

It is part of like conveying a message. and I built it just like doing it more and more and more. And also having this mindset shift of you learn, you grow and like even just doing it makes you admire yourself so much more.so I would say that's like personally, just like if someone's listening and is not feeling really confident, that's okay.

That's normal. Like it's something you build.and then I would say my other story is more about how it linked into the corporate space. So I always thought that confidence was separate to the corporate space. Of course, it's about like building confidence, but it's not something that has to do with business, but actually it does.

so I was working for the Body Shop a few years ago and they were doing this whole brand rejuvenation. Project campaign where they revived one of their brand values, the core brand values, which is self-love. So self-esteem, quite pioneering for a brand to embody and bring back self-esteem. And I was kind of responsible for the internal engagement side of things.

I was actually working in leadership development and just had this idea, they were doing campaigns on how self-care or going to launch campaign, a campaign around how self-care is a really big part of self-love. And looking after your skin and body butter, makes you feel, builds your self-esteem.

I'd had my whole journey of self-development and reading all of these books and just like learning about myself and growing and doing things outta my comfort zone. And I was like, if this brand who is a force for good and that's their purpose, wants to embody self-esteem, we need to do something different.

And especially if we wanna kind of connect with the younger generations, we need to do something different and something that actually builds self-esteem. And so. I created this whole campaign that was around creating a song with anyone who wanted to within the business that would make people feel confident through the power of neuroplasticity.

So the whole song, from the lyrics to the chords, to the words that were used and the lyrics. Would make people feel more self-esteem. I have a background in music production, so that was kind of, an kind of like an easy, easier thing for me to do. and so pitched it. it's one of the hardest campaigns I've ever run, obviously.

For beauty brand to go into music and for that to like sit on my shoulders a little bit. Although I did have a team, was very tough. There were a lot of layers of approvals, but we did it and the song was written with 1300 people. All over the world and the response was incredible. And it was added to the store playlist and it became like a really, really big part of the campaign and the business.

And then I was like, whoa. This is really resonating in the corporate world. And one of the things we did to get, the lyrics was send out a survey asking people what they needed to tell themselves more often to feel more self-esteem. Two other questions, but that one, the one thing that came up again and again and again, regardless, the country, regardless, the, the, the language was, I am enough.

[00:21:25] Hannah: Hmm. Hmm.

[00:21:27] Anais: many of us walk around not feeling enough in our personal life, in our work life, in any area, and that holds us back. and I started doing more and more around that in businesses, change businesses. and then I was like, that is the thing that we kind of need to solve. Everything has kind of led me here in terms of my background and, the different companies that I've worked with.

So I want to create the confidence agency to help people learn how to build confidence and for that to well transform their life positively. And, and I work with businesses on doing that through events, workshops, campaigns, culture strategies, and yeah, here we are.

[00:22:15] Hannah: I am enough. That is what the song is called now, isn't it? We link it in the show notes. I get goosebumps just thinking about that. I mean, just kind of mobilizing an entire organization like that. Feels really, really powerful and it also meant that you were onto something. Right.where I wanna start is with that first story that you shared and, and all about how public speaking is a skill and how confidence is often feels different on the inside from what it looks on the outside. And I've had so many. Really cool guests on public speaking, and I feel like you are just confirming what they've all said along the lines of, it's a skill. It is something that you need to learn. You can't just expect to go up on a stage or in front of a classroom and smash it. nobody ever does that or rarely does that.

Obviously there is always a little bit of, you know, natural skills to start with, but it takes a lot of practice and I feel like there was something really powerful in what you said about.you know, continuously putting yourself out there and seeking more and more opportunities to build the muscle and to, to learn it and for, for, for it to be now something that you truly enjoy doing and you do it beautifully.

So, I, this is where I want to sort of ease into confidence because I feel like the term in itself is often difficult to grasp because it's become such a. Buzzword that everybody keeps using. And it often sounds to me like, oh, confidence is when you walk with your head held high, or you walk into a meeting and you, you're like, you're like the boss and you're like, you know, with your, with your, with a, you know, great posture and you feel.

It just kind of looks like somebody who has it all together, who knows exactly what they're doing, who don't question themselves, who are just, you know, really sure of themselves and feel that inner strengths and, and power. And to me, often when I had confident moments. It didn't feel like that on the inside, that expectation that I had of what confidence would be.

It didn't quite feel like that on the inside. So I'm curious to understand what, what you think confidence is and how we can better, how, how we can make it more tangible of like, what does confidence look like in the workplace if it's not just somebody at a stage or, yeah. In like a really, really big meeting.

[00:24:51] Anais: I love that question and it's something that I hear a lot again, that confidence kind of being, being loud. but ironically for this podcast, confidence can be there, very quiet. You can make a quiet decision, and that's a great leadership quality. You can quietly walk into a room, but you have presence because you feel yourself.

And that is confidence. confidence is listening actively and not jumping in because you feel triggered or because, you want to say what you think without listening to the other person. So there's a lot of different, ways confidence shows up. I define confidence as like, An empowered sense of self and it's a sense of direction.

So confidence is more than a feeling. It helps you make decisions and it helps you move forward in life. and then I did a lot of research and kind of. Looked into how you could break it down so that it felt really tangible and not this kind of like fluffy thing that feels outta reach or not like something you are, because confidence is a skill again, that anyone can build.

so I have developed something called the confidence compass. So it's a framework for building true inside out confidence. inside is self-esteem. So based on four pillars, self-esteem, which is how worthy and enough you feel, which links well with what we talked about earlier. and then there's self-belief.

Which is how much do you believe in your capabilities?self-expression. So how confidently do you express yourself? Communication is a big part of this. And then self-image, which is how you see yourself. Physically, whether that's like clothes, looks, I mean, there's so much that goes into it. And then everything we do is equipping people with the tools and the knowledge to build confidence through those four pillars.

So whether it is a values workshop or self-awareness workshop, or communication workshop or, just knowing about what, what clothes make you feel good.there's so much that goes into this, and again, it's just giving everybody this playbook of, building their, their skill when it comes to showing up more confidently and then doing it little by little and learning more about themselves so they can shine that and walk into every room with confidence and clarity.

[00:27:29] Hannah: Yeah, talk to me about these four pillars. I'm, I've had to look at the, at the tool and what I wanna understand is whether they're in any particular order. Is it self-esteem first? And then you build self-belief, self-image? Is it that, almost like, is it circular? How do you, in what order do you tackle them?

[00:27:53] Anais: I think things link within each other and you can feel, enough in one category and then a little bit less than another. So it kind of also depends on the person, but I would say everything kind of starts with self-esteem. And when I do workshops, that's what I start with. if we think about our values, not a lot of people sit back and are like, who?

What? What like, are my values? What do I stand for? What's important to me? And you learn, like I definitely will learn more about my values as I continue to like live life. but sitting down and being like, Ooh, actually respect and loyalty is really important to me. Creativity is something that's really important to me.

All of these things help me live my life more confidently because if I see some, if I'm triggered, probably down to my values, for example, or the people that I then have in my life, if something feels off or something feels right, it probably has to do with my values as well.that's a big part.

I do this exercise called the I Know IT List, and I use this in coaching as well. So definitely for the person listening that you should do that. the, I Know It list is basically writing down everything you know about yourself, and it was developed by sports psychologist. That, said that when people were sport, athletes were writing down things they knew about themselves, they performed better back to self-awareness.

So writing down, what do you know about yourself? So if I ask you now, Hannah, what do you know about yourself? Three things. What would you say?

[00:29:29] Hannah: I would say I know about myself that I'm extremely ambitious, I'm creative, I come up with. Really good ideas. If I have to have the head space, and I am an introspective person, I'd say somebody who thinks very deeply, who thinks potentially a little bit too, too much, but ends up coming up with good ideas for it.

[00:29:52] Anais: I love that and I, I love how you said it with confidence as well, which is like the best.

[00:29:59] Hannah: Yeah, it's, it's interesting because you put me on the spot a little bit, if you think about it, but, yeah. Yeah. It's, it's interesting. It's an interesting frame to like, what do I know about myself? Yeah. And I could have also come up with things that are negative. Right. But

[00:30:16] Anais: Mm.

[00:30:16] Hannah: see, you framed me the right way.

[00:30:19] Anais: Hmm. And if you make a list of all of the positive things and then like look bad at, back at it, that is very, very empowering. Before really important meeting or before, really important thing that is happening in your life, if you need. A boost, just remembering that you are authentic, you are someone who is bold, you are someone who is introspective.

Like all of these things just reaffirms you. and back to like self-esteem and, and how that is kind of typically the first step to then going outwards with communication or outwards with self-image. yeah.

[00:31:00] Hannah: Yeah, yeah. That makes a lot of sense to me. I did kind of, look at the framework and you separate, two of them are more internally focused, aren't they? Like the self-esteem is certainly something that. You feel inside yourself, the self-belief likely to, to a certain extent, but then when it comes about, when it comes to image and self-expression, those are the more outwardly parts of, of, of, of confidence, right?

and I do feel like my audience, certainly myself, but I do think I speak for my audience as well in that.the inwardly focus is likely the ones that we've got covered, like the self-esteem. If you're really honest with yourself as an introspective person, you know what you're good at. You know, you know what, you know what's been working well for you, you know what you bring to the table most of the time.

I do also believe that there is a certain sense of, you know, self-belief. Again, I know what I bring, I know what I'm good at, but then to express that. To somebody else or to even show up in that way, to me can feel really hard because I have never really been able to strike the right balance. is the self-esteem that you feel internally, it's not always visible from the outside, what would you tell someone who feels like, you know, I've, I think I've got self-esteem, but I'm not too sure how I make that visible to someone else at work.

[00:32:30] Anais: Great question. I'll start by talking about a study that was done. So there was a study, I believe, done by Northwestern University where they put a group of people together, and they made them answer scientific questions. So did it. Fine. Done. Then they took the same group of people and gave them lab coats and made them answer the same scientific questions, literally the same.

What they found is that the accuracy rate increased the second time just by wearing lab coats, and that's because there's something called enclothed cognition where you associate. Something, a skill with a certain item of clothing and lab coats were associated, or we associate lab coats with medicine, with science, with maths potentially.

And so that subconsciously impacted someone's performance.

[00:33:34] Hannah: Wow. A lab code. Maybe I need to get myself a lab coat.

[00:33:37] Anais: A lab coat, and there's different things like, blazers typically, I mean, I'm

[00:33:43] Hannah: power sort kind of idea? Yeah.

[00:33:45] Anais: Yeah, I love a power suit. I love a blazer, and whenever I have a big meeting, often I'll wear a blazer just because I know that will make me feel, more confident or make me.

Radiate confidence in a different way. It feels aligned with me in that moment. there's colors as well that you can use. Again, tools that impact you positively. So red, if you wear red, it makes you remembered. 'cause that's, the brain remembers. Red, blue, and green are very calming. So if you need, you are in a situation where you need to maybe deliver a difficult message.

Wearing blue or green, is calming on the brain. So there's little tools that you can use. That help you be more confident in the moment and yeah, just like, I guess make your message a lot clearer or come out a lot easier just because you are equipping yourself with the, the tools to do so.

[00:34:44] Hannah: Yeah, and I think there's also a lot of power in like knowing what color suits you. I think we've talked about

[00:34:50] Anais: Yeah.

[00:34:51] Hannah: right? In in terms of like, I never know knew honestly, and I think I still. I still have to learn and like, still haven't quite figured it out a hundred percent, but there are certain clothes where you just feel like you just like them, and you just feel, I, I can't even explain it, but you feel more confident in them.

It doesn't necessarily have to be the, a typical power suit or something that would, you know, stand out to anyone else, but the mere feeling of like. Oh, this suits me. This makes me look really good. I feel like, you know, I feel like really pretty today. It does make a difference, doesn't it? You walk a little different, you get more compliments.

Maybe you, you, you just like, the posture is different. Your facial expression is different. So there is, let's talk about that because I feel like there is so much power in. I, I don't wanna say, you know, dressing for success or like, kind of dressing for the job you want, that type of thing. It's not that energy.

It's just like, how can you make sure through the clothes that you wear, that you feel more like yourself? I think that is what we want to aim for, at least in this community. But yeah. How do, how do you find out, how do you feel most like yourself in a way that, you know, also suits, like a business context?

[00:36:10] Anais: Two, two parts. Obviously there's specialists that can help. When you see, when you talk about the colors that suit you, that's color analysis. There's like stylists, there's like body shape and styling. There's a lot of different, specialists that will help tell you, try this if you don't know or try this and you'll likely, feel more confident in the thing that suits you, whether that's your skin tone, whether that's your body shape, et cetera.

But then you can also just go through your closet and try on things and you will feel, whether you like it or not, there's a big part of our closet that we're just not wearing or we buy it. For the future version of us, we don't buy it for right now. and then we end up not wearing it or just we buy it because it's on trend and it's not something we actually like, or we buy it as like shopping therapy because it just makes us feel good and gives us dope amine in the moment.

But like going through your closet and being like, I can see you're laughing. You're like, yes, it's so relatable.

[00:37:11] Hannah: Fortunately is, yeah.

[00:37:13] Anais: Yeah, it is, but it's it to so many people. but going through your closet and being like, Ooh, this, I feel good in why? it the color? Is it because every time I wear it, I get, I get compliments. So maybe it's because it suits me a different way. Is it because the way it fits me makes me feel more confident?

and then if you have like a big meeting and obviously it's appropriate for the workplace, maybe wearing that, well not even, maybe, probably wearing that will help you show up more authentically and more confidently.

[00:37:48] Hannah: I, I have such an embarrassing story that I wanna share with you. shared this, I, it is one of, it was one of the first, podcast episodes that I did a solo episode on this one, but it's ages ago. it was a couple of years ago when I had a really important job interview. It was an internal position that I applied for, but it was like a good one, two job levels above me.

So it was a really ambitious, role that I was applying for, but I had the confidence. I thought, well, I, I can do it. I had the, you know, self-belief. I had the belief in myself because I knew that. You know, if I put my mind to it, I'm sure I can thrive in this role. And I was backed by leadership, so I went for it.

But then, I really wanted to make sure that I came across as this leader type person, very confident. So I, I had this certain image in front of me of like, what that person looks like. went out and bought a bright yellow blazer. I had matching shoes. I still have shoes. I think I can't even sell those shoes because nobody wants them.

So it was like bright yellow and, yellow doesn't suit me very, I mean, you would be the first one to tell me that yellow is not my color. It was also, it was not a butter yellow. It was like back and, you know, couple of years ago it was a bright, bright yellow. And so, I went in with that yellow blazer and I thought that it would make me feel.

Confident, like, you know, bossy and like, you know, ready to go and get it. But it made me feel not like myself. And, by halfway through that interview, like the color of my face, like I get very red in like, when I'm nervous, when I'm in interview situation. So the color of my face really did not match well with that.

Bright yellow blazer. And so it felt like, you know, a tomato on this display. And I felt so uncomfortable in my own skin. I felt really, really bad. And so, obviously at the time I didn't, I, I didn't connect the dots and I thought, well, it was the blazer or, well, obviously it was a couple of other things too.

But I didn't feel like myself in that, in that, in that job interview. And hence I wasn't quite able to. Convey myself, that self-belief and that that I felt because I thought I had to perform for it. And so, I feel like this is exactly what you're saying. It's almost like matching, you know, how you feel on the inside, that self-esteem with, you know, how you express it and how you show it.

And it does, it looks different for everyone. You know, somebody might have looked fantastic in that. In that blazer, I'm sure somebody would. But for me, ever since then, I just kind of looked more at like, what, what do I like to wear? What do I feel good in? I have a lot of like nice oversized blazers these days that I love to wear whenever I'm out on meetings or, yeah, in something like a job interview.

sometimes for podcast conversations I also put on a blazer, even though it feels ridiculous, but it's. There is so much power in knowing what makes you feel like yourself, and I feel like it's, it's a true hack to understand that.

[00:41:04] Anais: And that's such like, that's such a good story that really illustrates just like one, knowing yourself and also like. Are you doing it for you or are you doing it for other people that blazer? Were you wearing it to impress and show up in a way that you thought they would like? Or were you showing up as yourself in that moment?

And regardless if they liked you or not, that wouldn't have impacted your value?

[00:41:35] Hannah: Yeah. Yeah, I think that's a good one because it was definitely, it wasn't for them, but it was for some version of what I thought,

[00:41:42] Anais: Mm.

[00:41:43] Hannah: what I thought the person who would end up getting this role would look like. I think that was in my mind. but yeah, it's a good question to ask yourself, isn't it?

Like, do I, do I look like this? Do I want, do I feel like myself in this or do I pretend to be someone else?

[00:42:01] Anais: And you said something so interesting, which is, it's the coach, the coach coming out of me when you were like, I dressed for the version of myself that I, the version I thought would get the role. But you wanna get the role, not the version. Like you are the one that should get it. Not this like.

Fictional or idea that you're creating. So it, it's just so, so interesting. But it like, again, it takes asking the right question. It takes the right environment, it takes testing, trialing, realizing, oh, that wasn't for me. Now I know for next time what is.

[00:42:36] Hannah: Yeah, yeah, yeah. I, I love that it's like, it's like, you know, you're not trying to be a, a different version. You are trying to lend the job. Right. But I feel like, especially in job interviews. We tend to, and especially as introverts, it ha has happened to me so many times that I went in and I was like.

I'll be whoever you want me to be. Like, just tell me, you know, what are the boxes that I need to tick? What are, what do I need to say? What story can I, you know, tell in a way that it will make me look like the person you want. But it is so much about, you know, a match and finding the right match and finding a good, a good fit.

And if you don't show up like yourself, you will never be able to match. So, yeah.

[00:43:21] Anais: that is exactly it. and of course there's like, I mean, everybody wants to. A land a job, it's so important and there's like financial implications, but if you think of happiness and feeling comfortable in a situation long term. Ideally that match in the beginning is the most important thing. and I've had some great managers 'cause another thing and some not so great.

But, another kind of piece of advice that I was given really, really like my first job, I was interviewing, it was like a fixed term contract and I was interviewing for different places and she said to me, she was like, you are interviewing them as much as they're interviewing you. You need to see if you like it.

So showing up as yourself is the most important thing because then you can see, do you like them and do they like you, but also do you like them? That is

[00:44:15] Hannah: Mm.

important and that also stuck with me afterwards. Yeah,

[00:44:19] Anais: a little bit of your humor or just like letting your personality shine through one, like people want personality.

They don't want, like, they don't want, they don't want robots.

[00:44:30] Hannah: Yeah. No, true.

[00:44:32] Anais: so yeah.

[00:44:33] Hannah: True.you're obviously doing so many things that take you out of your comfort zone and, I, I'm pretty sure that, you know, you still have situations where you feel like, you know, how do I feel more like myself where I'm going into this? I'm quite, quite nervous. Tell us what you do in these situations.

Are there any rituals? Is there anything, take us into a moment where you felt like that recently and what did you do? How do you deal? Yeah.

[00:45:00] Anais: Yes. Big, big question. I definitely am still learning, like everyone, I think life is about like a lifelong learning game.and the biggest thing is just to kind of take a lesson in everything, and use it as data to grow. going out of your comfort zone feels. So uncomfortable. So uncomfortable, and you don't realize that there's levels to it.

So you do it once and then you're like, oh, I've done it. I can do it again. And then a bigger comfort zone comes and you're like, oh, that feels a little bit more uncomfortable. And that just continues. Continues, continues. There's the kind of the saying that's like, feel the fear and do it anyway. I would say it's that when it feels right if in your gut, again, it feels right, sometimes you just need to, you just need to jump and see what happens.

And you'll realize the fear is a lot bigger in your head then it actually is.I've also realized that. we tend to fear success more than we fear failure. So everything working out amazingly and getting all of the good things and getting all of the opportunities and getting all of the kinds and all of the good feels actually a lot more scary than just not, not getting it and everything, like not working out because I think it's a lot more unpredictable.

You can analyze all of the worst case scenarios. And if the worst case scenario is like you need to, I don't know, start a new business, then you'll start a new business. But what if you get all of the clients? There's this feeling of, oh, am I enough? Am I good enough now again?

[00:46:52] Hannah: Hmm.

[00:46:52] Anais: so yeah, in terms of like going out of my comfort zone, I did my first solo travel.

When was it last year? and I loved it. It's one of my favorite things. that meant like going to restaurants by yourself, like walking around the city by yourself. It was in Europe, but still by yourself. that didn't feel that uncomfortable, but I know that that's sometimes like a big step for some people, even going to the restaurant by yourself because you're like, Ooh, they will see me and they'll think I'm alone.

But it's not about everybody else, it's just about you. And again, you build it. I moved to London by myself, five years ago because I always wanted to live in London. And, a friend recently moved to Australia and she voice noted me and she was like, oh, you're super, like, you're such a confident person.

So I don't know if you experienced this, but I'm finding it hard to like make new friends and I. I find it really lonely 'cause all of my friends are here in the uk. but now I'm having to like make new friends and I was like. It reminded me of when I moved to London and I didn't know anybody, and I was like, Ooh, it does feel quite lonely.

and then I signed up to this Facebook group called London New Girl to meet new people. And then I started speaking with my neighbors, and then I started like going out of my comfort zone and speaking to people at coffee shops and just doing like little things by little things. And now it's like so ingrained in me that I forget that I'm doing it.

[00:48:22] Hannah: Yeah. Yeah.

[00:48:23] Anais: but again, like, kind of like building it little by little and same in the workplace. the first, like that body shop campaign was a massive out of the comfort zone thing for me, and that definitely showed me a lot of things in terms of, oh, you, you can do it this way, or if you do follow your intuition, or if you do lead with heart in the business, that actually sometimes takes you further.

As well as like a lot of strategy and thoughtful planning behind it. sometimes you just need to be the first person to jump and others will follow when it's right,

[00:49:00] Hannah: True. I love how you say it's a, it's a journey and you continuously build those skills and it, it, you're never really done. And, there's one reflection I had on something that you said. Initially about self love

[00:49:14] Anais: Mm-hmm.

[00:49:15] Hannah: and how I, I personally feel that self love is also something that we almost need to train daily or remind ourselves of because.

sometimes I wake up and my, like, my initial setting would almost be like, you know, hustle and, you know, struggle and stress and like, there's very little self-love when I first wake up in the morning. And then I have to remind myself, oh, you know, to be kind to take some time to take it easy on me to not be so hard on myself.

what is a tool or a practice that you use or that you would recommend to someone? To almost use on a daily basis to remind ourselves of, you know, to build that muscle for, for self-love and, and being kind.

[00:49:59] Anais: two things. first one is the music you listen to is really, really powerful and really important. So your brain believes everything it hears repeatedly. The music you listen to in the morning or on repeat will impact how you feel about yourself, how you see the world and everything. So if you're starting your day with a lot of sad songs, because they're beautiful and sometimes, I mean, we all like to listen to a sad song, but that will impact your day.

And

[00:50:30] Hannah: I don't start with any music. I don't have any music. I, it's, it's sad. I should, I mean, I'm a swifty, so I should, I should have

[00:50:39] Anais: yeah, listen to shake it

[00:50:42] Hannah: yeah.

[00:50:42] Anais: Listen to shake it off.but yeah, like lyrics will then go straight into your subconscious, right? and the chords and like, it's, it's mood. It impacts your mood and your emotions. so maybe being a little bit more aware of. What you feed your brain with, will definitely set you up in a different way.

and then I'm a big fan of journaling. I love journaling. I don't journal every day. but I do it whenever I'm feeling an emotional and I need to get it, get it out of me. It's so good to just like, write down your thoughts, write down what you're feeling, and. it's almost like talking to yourself, right?

And you'll uncover a lot of things and it feels like a release.going outside, we're inside so much going outside in nature for a walk. even in, in the middle of the day, if you're in the office, just going for a break around your, your lunch and like walking 15, 20 minutes if you can. I try to do that now because it just clears my head in a different way and there's science behind it.

you said one and I gave three, but yeah.

[00:51:48] Hannah: That's fine. I'll take, I'll take it. I think those are lovely and yeah. Couldn't agree more. I'll, I'll start the music. That's a good one.

[00:51:55] Anais: School.

[00:51:56] Hannah: we're almost wrapping up, but what I wanted to ask you is. Where do you see the conversation about confidence headed in the next couple of years? Like I know that you work with a lot of companies and organizations, so what do you think is going to happen?

How much do you think is going to influence some of the, some of the future in organizations, in workplaces? what's the next thing?

[00:52:18] Anais: What a great question. I think we're at the beginning. we. The younger generations are, seem more into self-development than any other generation, like we see so much of it online, so it's just growing and growing and growing. If we think of that generation being the leaders of the future, what they need and their values, confidence is a really, really big part of that.

And. I also think that they're kind of opening the discussion or leading the way for something we're all feeling. there's a stat that, is one in two. People feel more self-doubt than self-love.

[00:52:58] Hannah: Yeah.

[00:52:59] Anais: a powerful stat one and two. So if we think of the workplace, that means 50% of your employees are doubting themselves day daily, rather than seeing something positively in themselves.

it's all about like continuing the conversation and also like showing that it has an impact. It's not, again, it's not fluffy. But for it to be seen as fluffy, you need to come with like a system similar to what we were doing in terms of this is how you tangibly build it. It's not about like, believe in yourself and that's it.

there needs to be a process behind it for people to build it. So I think it's gonna pick up. it already has picked up massively and we hear it more and more. There's so many different people out there who are focused on self-development and, that is. Kind of like being brought more and more into the workplace, which is amazing.

I think at the end of the day, we're people and what we feel shows up in every part of our life. We're not, a complete different person typically at work inside than we are at home. so it's all about giving the people the tools to be happy and be themselves and just feel fulfilled. And that starts with understanding yourself so you can connect with your work with people.

Again, loneliness is a really big thing, but you're lonely also when you don't know yourself and then you don't know your interest and how you can connect with people of similar interests or where to find them or having deep emotional conversations. So I am very excited about the future and, yeah, I see a lot of like positive, positive change.

[00:54:47] Hannah: Yeah, and you bring a lot of positivity. it's amazing how I, I, I feel like I'm, I'm a sponge and I'm absorbing all of it. And you have, you have great energy, and I always feel that this is one of the things that I. That I know about myself. I almost like when I'm with somebody like that, it's like very energizing.

[00:55:05] Anais: Thank you so much for coming on. much for having me. I've loved this so much.

[00:55:10] Hannah: I could have gone on and on. but where can everyone find you, connect with you, reach out to you and the confidence agency?

[00:55:17] Anais: Yes. so the Confidence Agency is literally the confidence agency on, On, on, on the website or on

[00:55:24] Hannah: On the internet.

[00:55:24] Anais: was looking for on the, on the internet. if you wanna connect with me on LinkedIn, Annabel is my name on LinkedIn. I have a podcast called Little Lessons from Big Hearts if you're interested in some of the people I work with in the space.

but yeah, if you are just enjoying this conversation, just like send us a message, we'd love to hear about it.

[00:55:46] Hannah: I would love that. And we'll also link the song in the show notes, if you don't mind.

[00:55:51] Anais: yes, yes.

[00:55:53] Hannah: Thank you, Anai. That was lovely.

[00:55:55] Anais: Thank you so much.