1
00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:02,920
When you're feeling positive,
your thoughts are positive.

2
00:00:03,470 --> 00:00:06,480
When you're feeling negative,
your thoughts are negative, right?

3
00:00:07,580 --> 00:00:13,780
In this episode, story follows state,
a Deb Dana phrase for why your thoughts

4
00:00:13,930 --> 00:00:19,009
are not random, where they actually
come from, why a negative story can

5
00:00:19,009 --> 00:00:24,340
be completely wrong but still be
true, and how the same story can both

6
00:00:24,410 --> 00:00:26,250
calm you down and keep you stuck.

7
00:00:27,120 --> 00:00:32,020
I'm Justin Sunseri, a therapist,
self-regulation coach, and Polyvagal

8
00:00:32,080 --> 00:00:34,699
Institute editorial board member.

9
00:00:35,709 --> 00:00:42,050
You're listening to Stuck Not Broken Book
one, Trauma and the Polyvagal Paradigm.

10
00:00:43,240 --> 00:00:46,600
You're listening to an audiobook,
so I highly recommend that

11
00:00:46,600 --> 00:00:48,150
you listen to it in order.

12
00:00:48,870 --> 00:00:51,499
If you're just finding the
show, first off, welcome.

13
00:00:51,940 --> 00:00:54,700
Second, go back and
start from the beginning.

14
00:00:54,709 --> 00:00:58,460
It's gonna make a lot more sense that way,
especially if you're new to this material.

15
00:00:59,470 --> 00:01:03,499
And if you do wanna support my
efforts or prefer to read, this

16
00:01:03,520 --> 00:01:08,229
book and the next two are available
in both digital and softcover.

17
00:01:08,339 --> 00:01:10,499
I'll have a link for you,
uh, in the description.

18
00:01:12,879 --> 00:01:19,302
Story follows state Have you ever
noticed that sometimes your thoughts

19
00:01:19,302 --> 00:01:23,862
are more hopeful and empathetic or
compassionate, and sometimes they're

20
00:01:23,862 --> 00:01:28,671
more anxious or aggressive or sullen,
and you didn't really choose to

21
00:01:28,671 --> 00:01:30,162
have these types of thoughts, right?

22
00:01:31,291 --> 00:01:34,692
Have you noticed that your thoughts
change depending on your feelings?

23
00:01:35,532 --> 00:01:38,082
When you're feeling positive,
your thoughts are positive.

24
00:01:38,942 --> 00:01:41,702
When you're feeling negative,
your thoughts are negative, right?

25
00:01:41,712 --> 00:01:44,681
Now, you might associate it the
other way around, but I would

26
00:01:44,682 --> 00:01:49,882
argue that it is the, uh, autonomic
state first and then our thoughts.

27
00:01:50,781 --> 00:01:53,822
Our thoughts come from our polyvagal
state, just like behaviors and

28
00:01:53,822 --> 00:01:56,422
emotions, sensations, and impulses.

29
00:01:57,242 --> 00:02:00,142
Deb Dana aptly phrases it this way.

30
00:02:00,782 --> 00:02:01,861
Story follows state.

31
00:02:02,881 --> 00:02:08,422
Stories sound many different ways like,
"I appreciate who and what I have in

32
00:02:08,422 --> 00:02:13,592
life," or, "I'm never gonna pass this
test, I'll always be a failure," or,

33
00:02:13,592 --> 00:02:17,922
"It's your fault I feel this way,"
or, "I'm so useless and unlovable.

34
00:02:17,992 --> 00:02:22,031
What's wrong with me?" In our state
of safety, our thoughts will be

35
00:02:22,031 --> 00:02:26,612
more empathetic and understanding,
validating and normalizing, and

36
00:02:26,612 --> 00:02:27,711
that's what we want more of, right?

37
00:02:28,662 --> 00:02:32,162
In flight-fight, thoughts will
be more anxious, catastrophizing,

38
00:02:32,562 --> 00:02:33,972
avoidant or aggressive.

39
00:02:34,762 --> 00:02:40,111
And in shutdown, thoughts will be more
pessimistic, lacking hope or belief,

40
00:02:40,192 --> 00:02:42,942
and maybe even, uh, lacking purpose.

41
00:02:43,492 --> 00:02:45,222
You might have one of those two flavors.

42
00:02:46,292 --> 00:02:49,872
Stories make sense of what caused an
autonomic state shift, but they're also

43
00:02:49,872 --> 00:02:52,452
reflections of one's current state.

44
00:02:52,841 --> 00:02:59,332
For example, when spouses argue, they
often have the story, "It's your fault

45
00:02:59,392 --> 00:03:04,272
that I feel this way." That story
explains the state shift toward probably

46
00:03:04,312 --> 00:03:08,382
fight, but it's also a reflection of
their current state, probably fight.

47
00:03:08,822 --> 00:03:12,262
If they felt more positive or more
safety in their system, their story

48
00:03:12,262 --> 00:03:15,461
would change to something like,
"I'm feeling some anger coming up.

49
00:03:15,811 --> 00:03:19,872
I'm gonna stop here, but I'll try
again once I'm feeling calmer later

50
00:03:19,872 --> 00:03:24,972
on." However, our state's stories
don't necessarily reflect reality.

51
00:03:25,562 --> 00:03:27,292
In essence, stories can be wrong.

52
00:03:27,455 --> 00:03:30,075
The thought, "What happened to me
is my fault because of what I was

53
00:03:30,085 --> 00:03:32,085
wearing," is obviously incorrect.

54
00:03:33,015 --> 00:03:36,235
But the thought nevertheless
provides an explanation.

55
00:03:37,365 --> 00:03:40,725
The explanatory power of these
stories also serves another

56
00:03:40,725 --> 00:03:45,085
function, to reduce the overwhelming
nature of defensive activation.

57
00:03:45,915 --> 00:03:48,705
Stories in this sense
can act as containers.

58
00:03:49,495 --> 00:03:53,585
If one really felt their inner
state and its accompanying emotions

59
00:03:53,585 --> 00:03:56,955
and impulses and sensations, it
would likely be overwhelming.

60
00:03:57,865 --> 00:04:01,985
Those underlying experiences are
intense if you're unprepared for them.

61
00:04:02,985 --> 00:04:07,765
Stories provide an explanation that
contains the defensive activation.

62
00:04:08,705 --> 00:04:12,465
Sadly, stories both reduce and
reinforce defensive activation.

63
00:04:12,885 --> 00:04:18,405
The thought, "It's my fault," reinforces
the individual's defensive activation.

64
00:04:19,135 --> 00:04:21,165
This creates a self-reinforcing loop.

65
00:04:21,565 --> 00:04:25,865
The defensive state creates the
incorrect cognition of self-blame.

66
00:04:26,995 --> 00:04:32,065
The self-blame reinforces the defensive
state, which reinforces the self-blame.

67
00:04:33,145 --> 00:04:37,065
The individual seems permanently
stuck in negative thinking and

68
00:04:37,415 --> 00:04:42,991
defensive activation Stories are
most noticeable when they come from

69
00:04:43,021 --> 00:04:47,491
defensive activation, like a traumatic
incident or arguing with your spouse.

70
00:04:48,601 --> 00:04:50,771
However, we always create stories.

71
00:04:51,331 --> 00:04:56,181
Our underlying autonomic states
consistently and directly influence

72
00:04:56,221 --> 00:04:58,101
our thoughts throughout a normal day.

73
00:04:59,301 --> 00:05:02,841
If your thoughts are often
negative, you're likely

74
00:05:03,201 --> 00:05:05,571
chronically in a defensive state.

75
00:05:06,711 --> 00:05:11,801
Your chronic defensive state perpetually
feeds your negative thinking, like

76
00:05:12,001 --> 00:05:14,181
ruminating or even obsessions.

77
00:05:15,561 --> 00:05:19,451
Think back to my, uh, client's
example from the previous episode,

78
00:05:20,211 --> 00:05:25,161
um, of having a, a nauseous reaction
to the green rubber fidget ring.

79
00:05:26,241 --> 00:05:31,111
Her body responded to the sight of the
green rubber ring, which was felt as

80
00:05:31,241 --> 00:05:36,891
nauseous, um, something that she said
is common for her with green stimuli.

81
00:05:38,151 --> 00:05:42,921
So let's break down what happens within
her from a Polyvagal Theory perspective.

82
00:05:44,121 --> 00:05:49,451
When she sees the green ring,
her state unconsciously shifts.

83
00:05:50,541 --> 00:05:55,891
She then consciously experiences
nausea, remembering the image of her

84
00:05:55,921 --> 00:06:02,331
deceased father, and thinks, "I don't
like green." She didn't first see the

85
00:06:02,331 --> 00:06:07,751
green, then think, "I don't like green,"
and then have a nauseous reaction.

86
00:06:09,031 --> 00:06:12,241
The story of not liking green
followed the memory, which is

87
00:06:12,241 --> 00:06:14,841
another kind of story, a visual one.

88
00:06:16,091 --> 00:06:22,661
These stories followed the biological
autonomic shift, which was felt as nausea

89
00:06:24,695 --> 00:06:29,125
Her brain attempts to explain the
state shift in response to the stimuli.

90
00:06:30,345 --> 00:06:35,255
"I felt shut down, therefore, I
don't like green," says the brain,

91
00:06:36,175 --> 00:06:38,245
and that's both true and not true.

92
00:06:39,215 --> 00:06:44,085
Suppose we were to successfully,
uh, renegotiate the trauma response

93
00:06:44,835 --> 00:06:48,195
for this client and then get her
more access to her safety state.

94
00:06:49,635 --> 00:06:53,745
Uh, if so, she might discover she
doesn't really have an aversion to the

95
00:06:53,745 --> 00:06:55,505
color green, and she might even like it.

96
00:06:56,505 --> 00:07:01,655
But currently, in a stuck state,
she doesn't like green since she

97
00:07:01,655 --> 00:07:06,075
neurocepts it as a life threat
based on past circumstances.

98
00:07:07,355 --> 00:07:12,915
Remember, stories can help explain, but
they also help contain the state shift.

99
00:07:13,795 --> 00:07:17,355
The story, "I don't like green,"
provides her with an avenue to get a

100
00:07:17,355 --> 00:07:21,875
sense of control over her current…
like the experience of her state,

101
00:07:22,295 --> 00:07:25,505
and possibly to avoid falling
even further down her polyvagal

102
00:07:25,515 --> 00:07:27,245
ladder deeper into dysregulation.

103
00:07:28,295 --> 00:07:31,515
Instead of actively remembering
and thinking about the image of

104
00:07:31,515 --> 00:07:35,215
her father, she can think, "I don't
like green," and leave it at that.

105
00:07:36,255 --> 00:07:39,655
She can also avoid future triggers
by avoiding the color green.

106
00:07:41,175 --> 00:07:46,465
However, the story also provides her an
avenue for her to communicate with me as

107
00:07:46,465 --> 00:07:51,665
a supportive person, which will also help
her to maintain her spot on the ladder.

108
00:07:52,425 --> 00:07:56,255
Her noticing the "I don't like
green" story is the first step toward

109
00:07:56,265 --> 00:08:00,395
getting to the next story, which is
the memory of her deceased father.

110
00:08:01,375 --> 00:08:07,215
The second story, the memory, is a
direct visual link to the state shift

111
00:08:07,295 --> 00:08:11,225
that was triggered by the traumatic
experience in the first place.

112
00:08:12,125 --> 00:08:16,055
If we simply stay with the "I don't like
green" story and try to avoid green,

113
00:08:16,575 --> 00:08:21,135
well, we'd be one step removed from
the direct experience of the autonomic

114
00:08:21,145 --> 00:08:26,435
state, a state that she went into in
the past but is recurring in the present

115
00:08:26,435 --> 00:08:29,935
moment of the therapy session and
at other points in her life as well.

116
00:08:31,525 --> 00:08:33,665
Okay, we are done with this one.

117
00:08:34,135 --> 00:08:37,825
Here are three things that you
should have down by now before

118
00:08:38,005 --> 00:08:39,445
moving on to the next episode.

119
00:08:40,025 --> 00:08:42,565
Number one, autonomic nervous system.

120
00:08:43,165 --> 00:08:47,425
Our internal processes are
on pi-- are on autopilot.

121
00:08:47,835 --> 00:08:48,425
That's important.

122
00:08:48,815 --> 00:08:49,235
Number two, neuroception.

123
00:08:50,835 --> 00:08:54,745
Our safety and threat detection system
that shifts our autonomic state.

124
00:08:55,245 --> 00:08:57,125
And number three, story follows state.

125
00:08:57,665 --> 00:09:00,375
Our thoughts are a result of our state.

126
00:09:01,935 --> 00:09:07,175
Next time, all about the safety state,
and we are going to meet Courtney for the

127
00:09:07,175 --> 00:09:09,805
first time, but definitely not the last.

128
00:09:10,605 --> 00:09:14,625
Her story will help us understand
these concepts in more detail.

129
00:09:15,075 --> 00:09:18,985
Thank you so much for listening
to the audiobook version of

130
00:09:19,515 --> 00:09:21,005
Stuck Not Broken Book One.