Speaker: 00:02:08

Hey everybody and welcome to Documentary First, an inside look at documentary filmmaking.

00:02:13,166 --> 00:02:16,900

I'm your host and a documentary filmmaker myself, Christian Taylor.

00:02:16,900 --> 00:02:23,369

And every other week I sit down with storytellers from all over the world and every stage

in their careers from all walks of life.

00:02:23,369 --> 00:02:27,862

who share their stories with us so that they can help us all become better filmmakers.

00:02:27,862 --> 00:02:36,417

Now, one quick thing before we get started, if you haven't subscribed to our podcast yet,

just please take 10 seconds and hit that follow or subscribe button right now, whether

00:02:36,417 --> 00:02:42,731

you're on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, YouTube, whatever, it's really the single best way that

you can support this show.

00:02:42,731 --> 00:02:50,443

So, all right, now today I'm sitting down with a couple of really experienced filmmakers

who also happen to be brothers.

00:02:50,443 --> 00:02:55,431

They've just completed a fantastic documentary series that I'm super excited to talk

about.

00:02:55,431 --> 00:02:58,266

They are the Ewers brothers, Eric and Christopher.

00:02:58,266 --> 00:02:59,137

Welcome guys.

00:02:59,137 --> 00:03:00,819

So nice to have you here.

00:03:00,854 --> 00:03:02,088

Great to be here.

00:03:02,816 --> 00:03:06,921

What I love here is that we have sort of a friendly little rivalry.

00:03:06,921 --> 00:03:13,390

We've got a Cubs, well, I'm really the Cubs fan, but we got a Cubs hat and a Boston Red

Sox hat.

00:03:13,390 --> 00:03:16,674

I'm really sitting with two Boston Red Sox fans, right?

00:03:16,842 --> 00:03:24,238

Yeah, this is a special hat because Chris and I, when we were filming in Chicago, went to

a Cubs game and I fell in love with the stadium.

00:03:24,238 --> 00:03:25,440

It was just wonderful.

00:03:25,440 --> 00:03:25,872

It is.

00:03:25,872 --> 00:03:28,881

Chris, you told me as a fact earlier that I didn't know.

00:03:28,881 --> 00:03:30,394

What was that fact?

00:03:30,598 --> 00:03:32,629

Yeah, Fenway was built in 1912.

00:03:32,629 --> 00:03:39,233

Wrigley was built a few years later and they were designed by the same architect.

00:03:39,233 --> 00:03:47,365

not only are there, you know, grandstand similarities, but certainly when you go

underneath to concessions, et cetera, you know, they look incredibly similar.

00:03:47,365 --> 00:03:51,447

Yes, and if you have never been to either ballpark, I highly recommend it.

00:03:51,447 --> 00:03:53,940

They are just an unbelievable places to visit.

00:03:53,940 --> 00:03:59,713

Of course, they're both fantastic franchises and, you know, I, of course, I'm very partial

to the Cubs.

00:03:59,713 --> 00:04:03,876

So anyway, all right, moving back, moving along, that's not what we're to talk about.

00:04:03,876 --> 00:04:11,660

We are here to talk about your new series, which airs on PBS March 30th and 31st on Henry

David Thoreau.

00:04:11,660 --> 00:04:15,806

And we're gonna get into that in a few minutes, but first I wanna start with your bios.

00:04:15,806 --> 00:04:20,118

because you guys are super interesting and I want people to really understand who you are.

00:04:20,118 --> 00:04:21,950

We're lay the groundwork first.

00:04:21,950 --> 00:04:32,616

So Eric has been a Ken Burns senior editor for 33 plus years, working on nearly every one

of his films since the Civil War, which is a very long time.

00:04:32,616 --> 00:04:36,682

His path to Ken Burns started with a really lucky coincidence.

00:04:36,682 --> 00:04:46,142

As a UMass Amherst undergrad, he saw the Civil War in a dorm lounge and was moved to tears

by none other than a pan of a photo of corn.

00:04:46,242 --> 00:04:51,942

He called his father who was a Civil War buff and he learned that his aunt and uncle lived

next door to Ken Burns.

00:04:52,162 --> 00:04:53,222

Now when does that ever happen?

00:04:53,222 --> 00:04:54,442

Pretty crazy.

00:04:54,762 --> 00:05:03,262

He's a multi Emmy Award winner and an ACE Eddie winner for the best edited documentary in

2015, which he'll tell us about in a minute.

00:05:03,262 --> 00:05:04,122

What was that?

00:05:04,122 --> 00:05:05,582

Can you remember now?

00:05:06,219 --> 00:05:09,071

I believe it was the Roosevelts.

00:05:09,234 --> 00:05:13,917

The Roosevelt, yes, one of my favorite documentary series, also by Ken Burns.

00:05:13,917 --> 00:05:23,592

And he's become an expert across the full filmmaking spectrum, editing, sound design,

music production, writing, directing, and he's based in the New Hampshire area near Ken

00:05:23,592 --> 00:05:25,724

Burns Florentine Films Production Company.

00:05:25,724 --> 00:05:32,181

Now, before we go into Chris's bio, I do want a little bit more detail on this story

about...

00:05:32,181 --> 00:05:38,242

your aunt and uncle living next to Ken Burns and just the real details about how that

actually happened.

00:05:38,942 --> 00:05:48,018

It really, if there are moments in life when you look back and you realize that you were

meant to do something, this is one of them.

00:05:48,018 --> 00:05:51,129

This beyond a shadow of doubt.

00:05:51,209 --> 00:05:53,329

The simple story is it is true.

00:05:53,329 --> 00:06:00,053

I was doing an internship with the UMass State Police and I was filming things with them,

kind of like the show Cops.

00:06:00,053 --> 00:06:04,799

uh As a fifth year student back then,

00:06:04,799 --> 00:06:08,539

There was a lot of hard times in Massachusetts.

00:06:09,179 --> 00:06:12,079

the education, educational system was a little challenged.

00:06:12,079 --> 00:06:17,759

I was there for five years, but I had no idea what I wanted to do.

00:06:18,459 --> 00:06:26,359

And all of a sudden, here I am watching during some downtime filming with the state

police.

00:06:26,359 --> 00:06:34,907

I was watching this beautiful pan of an old photo of corn and there was some,

00:06:34,907 --> 00:06:48,572

traditional music playing and some battle sounds and a quote read by some actor in some

beautiful way about about experiencing the battle and I I mean I stopped dead my tracks I

00:06:48,572 --> 00:07:01,597

was just enthralled and I remember it like it was yesterday because I literally said my

god I want to do that you know my love of history that came through my father

00:07:02,087 --> 00:07:04,239

I just was like, I really want to do that.

00:07:04,239 --> 00:07:13,866

So of course, as soon as I could, I called my father and told him and very casually he

said, well, Ken Burns lives next door to your aunt and uncle in Walpole, New Hampshire.

00:07:13,866 --> 00:07:15,889

You should look into it.

00:07:15,889 --> 00:07:21,835

And fast forward a year later and my aunt and uncle were deciding to sell their house.

00:07:21,835 --> 00:07:27,079

Ken's head editor, Paul Barnes was wanting to move up from New York City.

00:07:27,543 --> 00:07:31,405

He bought their house under the following condition in the purchase and sales.

00:07:31,405 --> 00:07:35,489

It said Paul Barnes wants the window treatments and the carpets.

00:07:35,489 --> 00:07:41,834

And then it said my aunt and uncle will give those if he will accept me as a potential

employee.

00:07:41,834 --> 00:07:43,494

So I started an internship.

00:07:43,494 --> 00:07:46,136

I graduated on a Sunday from UMass.

00:07:46,136 --> 00:07:49,297

And I started Monday morning at 9 AM.

00:07:49,297 --> 00:07:52,058

And now 37 years later, here I am.

00:07:52,089 --> 00:07:52,939

Unbelievable.

00:07:52,939 --> 00:08:01,079

mean, that is absolutely a testament of fate for sure, or God, but clearly who you know.

00:08:01,079 --> 00:08:05,779

I mean, in this industry, it all comes down to who you know, networking.

00:08:05,779 --> 00:08:08,844

could say it was some kind of, I had these skills.

00:08:08,844 --> 00:08:14,712

My father said, your education started the day you started working for Florence and Films.

00:08:15,206 --> 00:08:25,451

Of course, you know, and I told you my education started when I watched Ken Burns

masterclass because I had no idea how to make a documentary before I made one and he is

00:08:25,451 --> 00:08:26,252

the one that taught me.

00:08:26,252 --> 00:08:27,744

So that's pretty amazing.

00:08:27,744 --> 00:08:32,299

Now, Chris, I do wonder, did your brother have any influence on you at all?

00:08:33,196 --> 00:08:34,376

Yeah, sure.

00:08:35,076 --> 00:08:36,656

I'm 10 years younger.

00:08:37,796 --> 00:08:43,376

always, you know, I mean, we come from a very long line of creatives.

00:08:43,376 --> 00:08:49,076

There's not a lot of physicists, know, or chemists in our family.

00:08:49,076 --> 00:08:53,576

In fact, I would, I'd be surprised if there was a single one.

00:08:53,796 --> 00:08:56,356

But I always knew I was always fascinated by photography.

00:08:56,356 --> 00:08:57,636

I'm always new.

00:08:59,158 --> 00:09:01,972

If I had my druthers, I would grow up to do something behind a camera.

00:09:01,972 --> 00:09:05,276

you know, fast forward many years, Eric's working with Ken.

00:09:05,276 --> 00:09:07,458

I was in LA working out there.

00:09:08,059 --> 00:09:15,138

Moved back to the East Coast and, you know, we decided to, you know, join forces, combine

our talents.

00:09:15,185 --> 00:09:17,226

I'm gonna fill out your bio a little bit.

00:09:17,226 --> 00:09:25,930

You did say you're 10 years younger and you studied cinematography at Boston University

and photojournalism, because you said you've loved cameras at New England School of

00:09:25,930 --> 00:09:26,871

Photography.

00:09:26,871 --> 00:09:30,262

You have 20 plus years behind the camera, spanning documentary films.

00:09:30,262 --> 00:09:32,434

You started with Burn since the Vietnam War.

00:09:32,434 --> 00:09:39,939

You've done commercials for Fortune 500 brands like Apple, Coca-Cola, Tiffany & Company,

Stella Artois, Volvo and Jim Beam.

00:09:39,939 --> 00:09:41,330

And you've done network TV.

00:09:41,330 --> 00:09:43,901

So you've recently first shot your

00:09:43,901 --> 00:09:47,421

first narrative feature called The Disruptors, which came out in 2024.

100

00:09:47,421 --> 00:09:49,821

You're based in the New York City metro area.

101

00:09:49,821 --> 00:09:52,921

So if anybody needs work, you know where to find him.

102

00:09:52,921 --> 00:09:55,781

And he has a very high-end commercial reel.

103

00:09:55,781 --> 00:09:57,521

So you guys need to check it out.

104

00:09:57,521 --> 00:10:01,381

We may even attach it here to this podcast so you can see it on YouTube.

105

00:10:01,541 --> 00:10:04,321

So this guy is a guy who operates in both worlds.

106

00:10:04,321 --> 00:10:06,761

And we're going to talk about this later in the film.

107

00:10:06,761 --> 00:10:12,857

In my opinion, he sets the high bar and a great example for how to

108

00:10:12,857 --> 00:10:16,259

be able to do what you were truly, truly passionate about.

109

00:10:16,259 --> 00:10:22,693

You make it possible by making sure that you can live in order to do what you're

passionate about.

110

00:10:22,693 --> 00:10:24,015

You can cover your bills.

111

00:10:24,015 --> 00:10:29,920

Anyway, together you guys made a production company called the Ewers Brothers Productions.

112

00:10:29,920 --> 00:10:31,942

And you really sit in a unique position.

113

00:10:31,942 --> 00:10:37,601

You're a preferred collaborative company within the Burns Florentine Films ecosystem.

114

00:10:37,601 --> 00:10:40,381

and you co-direct under that banner.

115

00:10:40,381 --> 00:10:48,841

You've done some other films, The Mayo Clinic, Faith, Hope and Science, interestingly

enough, even though have you know scientists in your family, which came out in 2018.

116

00:10:48,841 --> 00:10:54,041

And also Hiding in Plain Sight, Youth Mental Illness, which came out in 2022.

117

00:10:54,041 --> 00:10:56,581

Also a science film.

118

00:10:56,581 --> 00:10:58,241

You grew up in Holliston, Mass.

119

00:10:58,241 --> 00:11:04,681

Now what I find interesting about these three films, and we could talk about this just a

little bit now, but.

120

00:11:04,681 --> 00:11:16,431

There seems to be, including with this one you just completed, a real concern and

compassion for sort of the greater good, you know, for humanity.

121

00:11:16,431 --> 00:11:23,338

And I see this real love of people and a deeper concern for us as people and a society.

122

00:11:23,338 --> 00:11:24,589

Would you say that?

123

00:11:24,589 --> 00:11:25,469

Is that accurate?

124

00:11:25,469 --> 00:11:31,123

Or do you have another way of, you know, articulating your mission behind your films?

125

00:11:31,658 --> 00:11:34,620

I think Chris and I both, I know we both want to answer this.

126

00:11:34,620 --> 00:11:46,397

I think we both never imagined what kind of filmmaking we'd make when this first started

happening can help cultivate our company with side projects, outside ventures, things like

127

00:11:46,397 --> 00:11:49,309

that, very enthusiastically endorsed us.

128

00:11:49,309 --> 00:11:52,311

As long as I didn't quit my day job as an editor.

129

00:11:52,311 --> 00:11:54,348

And I think what

130

00:11:54,348 --> 00:12:07,657

started to happen is Chris and I both had the emergence of our own particular bent or

style that we wanted on these on our films and we gravitated given the subjects towards

131

00:12:07,737 --> 00:12:15,223

contemporizing the history that was involved in the stories and making it more relevant,

more directly relevant today.

132

00:12:15,223 --> 00:12:16,965

And I can speak for myself.

133

00:12:16,965 --> 00:12:20,747

I never envisioned it going that way, but it

134

00:12:21,035 --> 00:12:33,902

It allowed it to become a mission for us where we both have had and endured mental health

challenges in our families, in ourselves, in our past, and how we could ever realize

135

00:12:33,902 --> 00:12:40,409

beforehand how much of a profound difference working on that film would make for our own

lives and our mission.

136

00:12:41,689 --> 00:12:50,524

Yeah, I mean, if we could, if we had our drawlers, we'd be making films about musicians

and music and other artists, you know, for the rest of our career.

137

00:12:50,524 --> 00:12:53,988

think that that, you know, both of us are very passionate about creation.

138

00:12:53,988 --> 00:12:58,712

That said, we're also highly attuned to the human experience, right?

139

00:12:58,712 --> 00:13:01,094

The human experience is the key to relatability, right?

140

00:13:01,094 --> 00:13:05,276

Regardless of what the topic be it politically, socially.

141

00:13:05,360 --> 00:13:07,611

uh even in an advertising sense, right?

142

00:13:07,611 --> 00:13:12,784

So social issues, sure, they can be hot topics, you know, very contemporary.

143

00:13:12,784 --> 00:13:22,830

But when you take that conversation and you create a foundation underneath it of history,

the facts, irrefutable facts, know, real change can occur.

144

00:13:22,830 --> 00:13:24,781

We can start to have a real conversation.

145

00:13:24,781 --> 00:13:29,046

have uh this platform, film, filmmaking, television.

146

00:13:29,046 --> 00:13:40,646

I feel like we have a responsibility, we feel like we have a responsibility to use it to

hopefully engage in worthwhile public discourse.

147

00:13:41,412 --> 00:13:42,712

I think that's absolutely.

148

00:13:42,712 --> 00:13:43,492

beautiful.

149

00:13:43,492 --> 00:13:54,309

did a podcast earlier and I've shared this with you, where I talked about the science of

sticky memories and where we do have a responsibility as filmmakers to realize we have the

150

00:13:54,309 --> 00:14:06,204

power chemically to change people's brains as we combine music, uh, you know, sound

effects, visuals, it changes the chemistry of our brain and begins to reform how we think

151

00:14:06,204 --> 00:14:06,775

about things.

152

00:14:06,775 --> 00:14:10,786

When you put that with ideas and we do have the power to do that.

153

00:14:10,786 --> 00:14:11,927

So that gives us a great

154

00:14:11,927 --> 00:14:14,439

responsibility for how we build that.

155

00:14:14,439 --> 00:14:16,940

And so I think that's a beautiful idea.

156

00:14:16,940 --> 00:14:22,434

And you demonstrate that, I think masterfully in this new film about Henry David Thoreau.

157

00:14:22,434 --> 00:14:26,257

And I want to read a little bit about sort of the summary of that, if you don't mind.

158

00:14:26,257 --> 00:14:27,818

And then we can kind of dive in.

159

00:14:27,818 --> 00:14:30,430

I want to know how this film came about.

160

00:14:30,430 --> 00:14:33,212

It's a three-part, three-hour documentary.

161

00:14:33,212 --> 00:14:38,116

It's your first full-length, the first full-length documentary biography ever made about

him.

162

00:14:38,116 --> 00:14:39,697

And it is airing on PBS.

163

00:14:39,697 --> 00:14:41,889

once again, March 30th through 31st.

164

00:14:41,889 --> 00:14:47,623

The first two hours will be on the 30th and the second one or the third one will be on the

31st.

165

00:14:47,623 --> 00:14:52,517

Now it's executive produced by Ken Burns and interestingly Don Henley.

166

00:14:52,517 --> 00:14:54,088

I want to know how that happened.

167

00:14:54,088 --> 00:14:59,633

He is the founder of Walden Woods Project, which of course makes sense, but I don't even

know how that happened.

168

00:14:59,633 --> 00:15:02,407

It's narrated by George Clooney, Jeff

169

00:15:02,407 --> 00:15:07,349

Goldblum voices Thoreau and Ted Danson voices Ralph Waldo Emerson.

170

00:15:07,349 --> 00:15:15,013

Meryl Streep voices multiple women in Thoreau's orbit and Tate Donovan, he voices William

Ellery Channing.

171

00:15:15,013 --> 00:15:25,668

Now the film goes well beyond the hermit at Walden Pond narrative and it positions Thoreau

as a fierce abolitionist, a critic of consumerism and industrialization, a champion of

172

00:15:25,668 --> 00:15:32,431

civil disobedience, a prophetic voice about environmental degradation, themes that feel

almost

173

00:15:32,431 --> 00:15:33,791

eerily contemporary.

174

00:15:33,791 --> 00:15:34,771

said that to you earlier.

175

00:15:34,771 --> 00:15:38,302

And it features an incredible host of scholars.

176

00:15:38,302 --> 00:15:43,423

This is produced in partnership with Four and Teen Films and WETA in Washington, D.C.

177

00:15:43,423 --> 00:15:52,685

It's got an original score and incredible funding by the Better Angels Society, Jeff

Skoll, the Mansuda Foundation, and a host of others.

178

00:15:52,685 --> 00:15:57,397

So you heard me say there I'd love to know how this all got started.

179

00:15:57,397 --> 00:16:01,726

And I think I read you did a short version for a museum.

180

00:16:01,726 --> 00:16:03,620

on Henry David Thoreau perhaps.

181

00:16:03,620 --> 00:16:12,896

So talk to me about that, why Don Henley is connected, and then just how this project all

came about and why you were so passionate about it.

182

00:16:13,419 --> 00:16:16,742

I think the best way to start is the moment of creation.

183

00:16:16,742 --> 00:16:23,147

When I was working, I can't even at this point remember what project it was on, my day job

editing with Ken.

184

00:16:23,147 --> 00:16:26,890

And the phone rang in the office and it was Ken.

185

00:16:26,890 --> 00:16:30,633

And typical Ken, said, hey pal, got a quick question for you.

186

00:16:30,633 --> 00:16:36,955

Would you and your brother be interested in doing a short film on Henry David Thoreau,

Thoreau.

187

00:16:36,955 --> 00:16:42,590

and Walden Pond, his experiences at Walden Pond for their new visitor center that they're

building.

188

00:16:42,590 --> 00:16:45,413

And you'd be working with Don Henley from the Eagles.

189

00:16:45,413 --> 00:16:48,415

And I kind of missed a beat in my heart.

190

00:16:48,415 --> 00:16:51,868

And I was like, yes, we'd love to.

191

00:16:51,868 --> 00:16:54,681

And he said, good, because I already volunteered you for it.

192

00:16:54,681 --> 00:17:01,628

And Ken, his enthusiasm for filmmaking and for us was just amazing.

193

00:17:01,628 --> 00:17:03,103

And so

194

00:17:03,103 --> 00:17:08,494

There began this journey that started actually, that was in 2015.

195

00:17:08,494 --> 00:17:11,658

And it took us a couple years to make that film.

196

00:17:11,658 --> 00:17:21,518

And it really was as simple as just putting a bug in both Ken's ear and Don's ear and

saying, you know, this is only a small fraction of his story.

197

00:17:21,518 --> 00:17:26,752

If anything, we're just focusing on the one and only thing that people know about Thoreau.

198

00:17:26,752 --> 00:17:28,151

And there's so much more.

199

00:17:28,151 --> 00:17:29,551

And it was only 20 minutes, right?

200

00:17:29,551 --> 00:17:31,551

That one was really a short.

201

00:17:31,612 --> 00:17:36,196

22 minute film and it really turned out very well.

202

00:17:36,196 --> 00:17:44,394

You Chris, you remember when we first started walking around Walden Pond exploring, it was

kind of scary.

203

00:17:44,394 --> 00:17:45,570

In what way?

204

00:17:46,004 --> 00:17:51,105

Well, I mean know, Thoreau himself describes it, in writing as, you know, nothing special,

right?

205

00:17:51,105 --> 00:18:00,379

He, I think, I misquote him, of course, but he says something along the lines of like, you

know, it's just a it's an everyday pond in a very normal or typical Massachusetts woods.

206

00:18:00,379 --> 00:18:02,541

I mean, it's not like the way that he writes about it.

207

00:18:02,541 --> 00:18:12,445

One would expect, you know, the Great Salt Lake or, you know, some magnificent vista where

it's impossible to not.

208

00:18:12,619 --> 00:18:19,185

be introspective and to feel small and to take notice, it's the exact opposite.

209

00:18:19,276 --> 00:18:28,099

Yeah, that is hilarious because I was gonna say from what I watched, like I just kept

thinking, I can't wait to go there.

210

00:18:28,099 --> 00:18:33,184

It's the most beautiful thing, you know, because it's shot so beautifully.

211

00:18:33,184 --> 00:18:37,268

And you know, he talks about the magnificence of it.

212

00:18:37,268 --> 00:18:38,619

It's just mesmerizing.

213

00:18:38,619 --> 00:18:40,120

So it's just a pond?

214

00:18:40,541 --> 00:18:43,101

Yeah, I mean, there's this drab.

215

00:18:43,101 --> 00:18:48,942

uh know, but, but it was a you know, that was I think that was the that was the

interesting bit.

216

00:18:48,942 --> 00:18:55,007

You know, we were taught Thoreau, we were taught Walden, at very least in high school very

poorly, I might add.

217

00:18:55,007 --> 00:19:03,090

You know, and I and I think, you know, to in order to read Walden or to read Thoreau, you

know, I think that it helps to have some, you know, some road under your feet, right, some

218

00:19:03,090 --> 00:19:03,952

life experience.

219

00:19:03,952 --> 00:19:04,772

220

00:19:05,049 --> 00:19:05,535

good.

221

00:19:05,535 --> 00:19:05,972

Sorry.

222

00:19:05,972 --> 00:19:07,472

we go there.

223

00:19:07,472 --> 00:19:09,412

We're walking around and we.

224

00:19:09,531 --> 00:19:16,472

You we realize that we're going to have to heavily lean in to how like to his process,

right?

225

00:19:16,472 --> 00:19:22,152

To Thoreau's the way that he writes about it way that he the way that he writes about the

things that he did.

226

00:19:22,152 --> 00:19:32,172

So like we kind of figured right out of the gate that we were going to have to, know, to

look at this place and these these details through Thoreau's lens, you know, rather than

227

00:19:32,172 --> 00:19:32,452

ours.

228

00:19:32,452 --> 00:19:35,352

And in doing so really opened us up to.

229

00:19:35,489 --> 00:19:38,369

you know, the beauty that we've been missing.

230

00:19:39,242 --> 00:19:41,504

And to clarify real quickly, I think it's important.

231

00:19:41,504 --> 00:19:52,471

When Chris was talking about Thoreau saying it's just an ordinary place, what he was

referring to is how the masses, how society would see it.

232

00:19:52,471 --> 00:19:58,456

They would just walk by and say, it's a pond with some woods with a lot of downed trees.

233

00:19:58,456 --> 00:20:07,562

it was the fact that Thoreau made a choice to live simply and deliberately and to look at

things in a different way.

234

00:20:07,572 --> 00:20:09,504

with a different emphasis.

235

00:20:09,504 --> 00:20:19,316

And the challenge was for us, who, you know, I don't know if Chris passed in his Thoreau

paper in high school, I got it like a C minus, my teacher said it lacked insight.

236

00:20:19,316 --> 00:20:19,883

You know,

237

00:20:19,883 --> 00:20:20,957

you passed now.

238

00:20:20,957 --> 00:20:22,511

I'll give you a passing grade now.

239

00:20:22,511 --> 00:20:23,784

You got more than that.

240

00:20:23,784 --> 00:20:24,658

You got an A plus.

241

00:20:24,658 --> 00:20:31,504

very unlikely individuals, that day I remember we were walking around going, how are we

gonna make this come alive?

242

00:20:31,504 --> 00:20:40,529

And when we say we, I'm a casual observer and occasional commenter on Chris's

cinematography when we're out shooting.

243

00:20:40,529 --> 00:20:48,174

uh I provide suggestions, but he is the one who looks through that lens and says, I'm

going to see.

244

00:20:48,294 --> 00:20:53,928

the Jacob's ladders of the sun rays coming through the holes in a leaf on a tree.

245

00:20:53,928 --> 00:20:56,340

And that's what Thoreau would have seen.

246

00:20:56,340 --> 00:21:01,363

That's what the people walk by and rarely see or stop to see.

247

00:21:01,363 --> 00:21:07,388

And one quick mention, they have school trips there all the time from local schools.

248

00:21:07,388 --> 00:21:09,189

We went there as kids.

249

00:21:09,253 --> 00:21:10,507

I was suspended.

250

00:21:12,579 --> 00:21:14,710

I missed that trip.

251

00:21:15,027 --> 00:21:21,030

I went on that trip and it was just a field trip to get out of school, I remember to be

dead honest.

252

00:21:21,030 --> 00:21:32,534

But what we were told was now young kids come through the visitor center, they sit down in

the little theater, they watch our 22 minute film.

253

00:21:32,534 --> 00:21:41,817

And the park rangers have told us how the kids scramble to line up to get across the

street because they're so excited to go and explore.

254

00:21:42,021 --> 00:21:43,825

based on what they saw in the film.

255

00:21:43,825 --> 00:21:48,203

And I hope that opens a world to them that they maybe are not seeing.

256

00:21:48,526 --> 00:21:49,711

Well, mean,

257

00:21:49,777 --> 00:21:52,910

get over there and then they're like that John Denver was full of shit man.

258

00:21:52,910 --> 00:21:53,766

you

259

00:21:55,576 --> 00:21:58,211

I thought the Rockies would be a little rockier.

260

00:21:59,720 --> 00:22:03,116

I gotta tell you, you did do a masterful job.

261

00:22:03,116 --> 00:22:05,768

And I said this to you offline.

262

00:22:05,768 --> 00:22:21,924

What I absolutely could tell from the first 10 minutes is you took your own individual

gifts of cinematography and of sound design and editing and you...

263

00:22:21,924 --> 00:22:29,067

married them in such a powerful way because those are some of the strongest elements that

brought this to life.

264

00:22:29,127 --> 00:22:37,552

And I particularly noted the sun rays and the way that you caught those, not just through

the leaves, but through the forest.

265

00:22:37,552 --> 00:22:47,131

There's so many different ways you caught those rays of light in every different way,

through windows and on floors and in canopies and

266

00:22:47,131 --> 00:22:48,972

It was just, it was marvelous.

267

00:22:48,972 --> 00:22:53,306

And it reminded me, you I did a lot of shooting in Normandy and one of the most, you need

to go there.

268

00:22:53,306 --> 00:22:58,990

Chris, I have to take you there because the light in Normandy just is so captivating.

269

00:22:58,990 --> 00:23:01,923

It's the most magnificent thing I've ever seen.

270

00:23:01,923 --> 00:23:03,924

And the things you can do with it are remarkable.

271

00:23:03,924 --> 00:23:11,835

And that is the way I felt like, I felt like I saw that kind of magnificence with the way

that you treated the light in this film.

272

00:23:11,835 --> 00:23:14,196

And you did that with the water as well.

273

00:23:14,196 --> 00:23:17,078

Like it just looked so beautiful.

274

00:23:17,078 --> 00:23:21,401

And your film, it has this, and Ken Burns films do this a lot.

275

00:23:21,401 --> 00:23:30,001

It just invites you in in this lovely, soothing, it's like come in and in here my story

and let me, I don't know.

276

00:23:30,001 --> 00:23:39,682

It's just this open lap that you sit into and you go on this journey with you and the

sound effects as well as the sound design and the score.

277

00:23:39,682 --> 00:23:41,523

um just compliment that beautifully.

278

00:23:41,523 --> 00:23:42,834

So I applaud you both.

279

00:23:42,834 --> 00:23:51,809

You both get A pluses, whether you were suspended, I don't know what for, maybe now you

paid much better attention clearly when you went back.

280

00:23:51,809 --> 00:23:54,851

Now you both said you love music, right?

281

00:23:54,851 --> 00:24:00,635

Well, was that like, were you stunned to learn that Don Henley was the one asking you to

do that?

282

00:24:00,635 --> 00:24:03,919

And were you meeting somebody that you kind of had a great affection for?

283

00:24:03,919 --> 00:24:06,238

I see the guitars in the background over there.

284

00:24:06,861 --> 00:24:21,963

Yeah, Dawn, I mean, it goes without saying, if you're around our age and have a pulse, you

know the Eagles and you've experienced the blessings that that band has bestowed upon us

285

00:24:21,963 --> 00:24:24,341

for our entire lives.

286

00:24:24,341 --> 00:24:32,087

I I don't think a day goes by where I am not seeking to hear the Eagles, but I do.

287

00:24:32,345 --> 00:24:37,139

whether it's in the car or in a restaurant, it's just, it's pervasive.

288

00:24:37,139 --> 00:24:41,983

And I also find every time I hear it, I listen because they're so beautiful.

289

00:24:41,983 --> 00:24:50,552

So there is an inspiration that comes out of a creative like Don Henley that came into

this project without a doubt.

290

00:24:50,552 --> 00:24:57,598

It's very surreal to be honest with you, but the funny thing is, and I think the wonderful

thing is that Don,

291

00:24:57,658 --> 00:25:01,890

certainly would prefer not to talk about the Eagles in our presence.

292

00:25:01,890 --> 00:25:03,642

He wants to talk about Thoreau.

293

00:25:03,642 --> 00:25:07,024

He wants to talk about English.

294

00:25:07,024 --> 00:25:16,841

He's just, he's been a rock star for so long and he, I think he wants to be known not just

as one of the front men and the drummer of the Eagles.

295

00:25:16,841 --> 00:25:25,816

I think he wants to be known for something else and I think that is part, especially

looking back, I think that's a large part of

296

00:25:25,896 --> 00:25:38,714

his life from the late 70s, early 80s, where he started this mission to preserve Walden

Pond and to preserve the nature there and to preserve Thoreau's legacy as a writer and a

297

00:25:38,714 --> 00:25:39,245

person.

298

00:25:39,245 --> 00:25:44,107

He has been doing that ever since then to this day.

299

00:25:44,107 --> 00:25:46,208

And it's a passion of his.

300

00:25:46,208 --> 00:25:50,257

And it was a privilege, honestly, in every way, shape and form.

301

00:25:50,257 --> 00:25:55,794

his involvement in the project was so valuable and it still is.

302

00:25:55,850 --> 00:25:59,677

So he started the visitor center, he's from that area?

303

00:26:00,100 --> 00:26:00,749

No?

304

00:26:00,749 --> 00:26:01,950

went he studied.

305

00:26:01,950 --> 00:26:05,752

He was an English major in college, uh fell in love with the row.

306

00:26:05,752 --> 00:26:16,022

I think the story goes that, he was he lived in Texas at the time and saw a news story

about the woods around Walden and how they were in danger of being developed.

307

00:26:16,022 --> 00:26:21,504

So he and Kathy Anderson are great friends and incredible.

308

00:26:21,651 --> 00:26:34,419

partner in this endeavor, they started, they co-founded the Walden Woods Project, which at

that time was simply a nonprofit designed to purchase or to buy up, protect and preserve

309

00:26:34,419 --> 00:26:37,173

the lands, the historical lands in and around Walden Pond.

310

00:26:37,173 --> 00:26:38,284

They were successful then.

311

00:26:38,284 --> 00:26:43,037

And of course, their Walden Woods Project's mission has grown ever since.

312

00:26:43,037 --> 00:26:45,086

They've m been

313

00:26:45,497 --> 00:26:50,720

absolutely crucial in the success of this project, even the creation of this project.

314

00:26:50,793 --> 00:26:51,543

Hmm.

315

00:26:51,584 --> 00:26:53,056

Well, it's remarkable to me.

316

00:26:53,056 --> 00:27:00,946

mean, I wonder, did he write a lot of the lyrics, you know, in the Eagles music and was

that based in like his English and passion?

317

00:27:00,946 --> 00:27:01,837

Do you know any of this?

318

00:27:01,837 --> 00:27:07,463

And, know, cause you know, Thoreau is so such a deep thinker and there's a lot of that in

the Eagles music.

319

00:27:07,463 --> 00:27:09,015

So I do, I am curious about that.

320

00:27:09,015 --> 00:27:09,431

Anyway.

321

00:27:09,431 --> 00:27:16,506

think, no, I think on the short film, we had a chat because we interviewed him for the

Walden Visitor Center film.

322

00:27:16,506 --> 00:27:27,153

And we I remember asking him the question later in the interview, has how is Thoreau

influenced his his career as a musician?

323

00:27:27,153 --> 00:27:36,339

And I seem to recall that he said that that Thoreau was an influence and that what Thoreau

taught him was a sense of place.

324

00:27:36,739 --> 00:27:47,838

and that he so admired how Thoreau would ground you in a place in his writing that in some

way, or form, and I don't want to speak for Don, but in some way, shape or form, that was

325

00:27:47,838 --> 00:27:52,543

part of what he tried to bring to his songwriting.

326

00:27:53,078 --> 00:28:06,453

You speak about grounding in a place and Chris, one of the things that again, just stuck

with me is your images that you um shot of his place that he built right by Walden Pond

327

00:28:06,453 --> 00:28:07,965

where he lived for two years.

328

00:28:07,965 --> 00:28:11,526

There was also Ralph Waldo Emerson's home.

329

00:28:11,526 --> 00:28:15,387

And I am curious, were those sets that were created?

330

00:28:15,387 --> 00:28:18,029

Do those live there by the pond?

331

00:28:18,029 --> 00:28:24,739

you know, was that set design or tell me a little bit about that because they were just

shot so well and so beautifully.

332

00:28:24,739 --> 00:28:26,221

It just came to life.

333

00:28:26,245 --> 00:28:26,726

Thank you.

334

00:28:26,726 --> 00:28:35,911

Yeah, so we had unfettered and really unbelievable access to so many of the uh historical

sites in and around Concord.

335

00:28:35,911 --> 00:28:39,093

The Emerson family was incredibly gracious.

336

00:28:39,093 --> 00:28:45,276

Not only did we shoot interviews there, several interviews in the house, which was very

special.

337

00:28:45,276 --> 00:28:50,359

We also, to your point, to your question, we also used the actual

338

00:28:50,657 --> 00:28:59,414

the physical space in the house, the parlor, the lounge, Emerson's uh study to do, you

know, it's, wouldn't say recreations, right?

339

00:28:59,414 --> 00:29:10,904

Because that's not what it is, but they're, you know, they're sort of uh abstract, know,

interstitial cutaway bits that we filmed with a lot of like, you know, of actual

340

00:29:10,904 --> 00:29:13,802

artifacts, you know, Emerson's actual

341

00:29:13,802 --> 00:29:15,222

you know, possessions.

342

00:29:15,702 --> 00:29:27,202

In other cases, for instance, Thorough's cabin, you know, obviously the original structure

has long since been, you know, come and gone.

343

00:29:27,582 --> 00:29:35,482

But the visitor center has a replica cabin of, so to speak, built on the premises there.

344

00:29:35,482 --> 00:29:40,902

Granted, it's next to the parking lot.

345

00:29:41,495 --> 00:29:44,524

Logistically, it was a challenge to film.

346

00:29:44,524 --> 00:29:45,146

347

00:29:45,146 --> 00:29:47,280

Well, it looked like it was in the woods.

348

00:29:47,441 --> 00:29:51,102

Yeah, well, you know, mean, there are a couple of angles where we can cheat it, right?

349

00:29:51,102 --> 00:29:54,944

uh You know, and of course, you know, it's built with modern materials.

350

00:29:54,944 --> 00:29:58,966

So we tried to minimize, you know, the establishing as much as possible.

351

00:29:58,966 --> 00:30:00,507

But we had incredible.

352

00:30:00,707 --> 00:30:09,960

Yeah, we I mean, we had incredible historical, you know, art directors for all intents and

purposes for our department who came in research, we're familiar with the road in the time

353

00:30:09,960 --> 00:30:12,401

period, researched and collected

354

00:30:12,436 --> 00:30:20,226

you know, furniture and accessories and, you know, this, that, and the other thing, as

likely Thoreau would have had.

355

00:30:20,226 --> 00:30:28,380

And then we were able to set dress the replica cabin at Walden Pond and film, you know, in

a couple of different seasons in there.

356

00:30:28,380 --> 00:30:37,775

But again, the access that we were given was unprecedented and truly the reason why we

were able to, you know, to create, to try to create this world for

357

00:30:37,775 --> 00:30:39,310

viewer to be in.

358

00:30:40,562 --> 00:30:41,223

Wait, you know what?

359

00:30:41,223 --> 00:30:43,123

Another thing that I really loved what you did.

360

00:30:43,123 --> 00:30:50,461

I mean, you can, I'm assuming you did this, but you really did a wonderful job of shooting

his diary.

361

00:30:50,461 --> 00:30:51,222

Did you do that?

362

00:30:51,222 --> 00:30:53,864

Did you shoot his actual diary?

363

00:30:54,167 --> 00:31:04,037

uh So his journal those journal pages were Were photographed I personally didn't do them

uh one of our one of our producers Susan Shoemaker uh and one of our post-production

364

00:31:04,037 --> 00:31:12,404

Supervisors Dan white they were responsible for actually going to the archives where these

you know These materials are kept there's I think three or four of them one of the major

365

00:31:12,404 --> 00:31:19,431

ones is the Concord free public library But they went in and actually photographed the

pages you know with uh

366

00:31:20,105 --> 00:31:25,093

with the archivists yes so what we're looking at our actual pages of his journal uh...

367

00:31:25,093 --> 00:31:30,667

though we had to manipulate them in in post

368

00:31:30,667 --> 00:31:40,512

the editor had a hand in this because if they were photographs then the editor was busy

making those look wonderful.

369

00:31:40,512 --> 00:31:42,955

And another thing I loved the effect of

370

00:31:42,955 --> 00:31:53,962

you had the visuals that you had shot, whether it was over the lake or in the room, and

you would blur in and you would see his hand starting to write in the upper corner.

371

00:31:53,962 --> 00:32:02,805

I loved that effect and I love how you guys tried to figure out interesting ways to keep

the viewer engaged with not a lot.

372

00:32:02,805 --> 00:32:07,198

I mean, you had talking heads mostly the way throughout.

373

00:32:07,198 --> 00:32:11,644

You didn't have a ton of archival images really to play with.

374

00:32:11,644 --> 00:32:13,498

And you had his journal.

375

00:32:13,498 --> 00:32:14,686

I mean, there really wasn't a lot.

376

00:32:14,686 --> 00:32:22,654

And there was a lot of cinematography I felt like to keep us interested, which was good

because we needed that, I think.

377

00:32:22,654 --> 00:32:27,798

Yeah, wasn't that a challenge to figure out how you were visually going to carry three

hours of this?

378

00:32:27,927 --> 00:32:32,521

Yeah, I mean, that's the best part, though.

379

00:32:32,521 --> 00:32:40,289

The constraints of the project, know, mean, photography was in its infancy, you know, when

Thoreau was middle-aged.

380

00:32:40,289 --> 00:32:45,874

There's two portraits of him, know, two usable photographic portraits of him.

381

00:32:45,874 --> 00:32:49,619

Very little, uh if any, of the spaces in and around Concord.

382

00:32:49,619 --> 00:32:54,311

So it required us to use our imagination to plug the

383

00:32:54,311 --> 00:32:55,631

plug the holes.

384

00:32:55,911 --> 00:33:05,871

you know, Eric was his masterful at not only, you know, cutting this together, but also

helping to direct like what is needed for each scene.

385

00:33:05,871 --> 00:33:14,351

So I mean, we didn't, you we weren't just shooting willy nilly, we were very calculated

about our shoot days and what it was that we were going to capture and where it was going

386

00:33:14,351 --> 00:33:15,370

to be used.

387

00:33:15,370 --> 00:33:17,362

Yeah, Eric, talk to me about that.

388

00:33:17,362 --> 00:33:20,986

Did you, and how did the script kind of come together?

389

00:33:20,986 --> 00:33:22,748

Did you write this together?

390

00:33:22,748 --> 00:33:30,245

Did you put it all in your mind and say, okay, this is what I want for the editor, what I

need for the edit is this, and you came up with a shot list.

391

00:33:30,245 --> 00:33:31,838

How did it go?

392

00:33:32,343 --> 00:33:34,725

It's such an amazing process.

393

00:33:34,725 --> 00:33:48,491

And I've had the privilege of witnessing some of the best doing this for film after film,

dozens and dozens and dozens of film working for Ken, like writer Jeff Ward and Dayton

394

00:33:48,491 --> 00:33:51,423

Duncan and Ken himself sitting alongside.

395

00:33:51,423 --> 00:33:54,495

And I never realized how much I was absorbing.

396

00:33:54,495 --> 00:34:01,980

And we have a writer, David Blistein, and he is one of Ken's best friends from the early

days of Hampshire College.

397

00:34:01,980 --> 00:34:06,064

uh David, yes, back in the hippie days.

398

00:34:07,965 --> 00:34:11,229

Yes, that far back, pre-Lowell Bridge.

399

00:34:11,229 --> 00:34:14,371

And David is a love.

400

00:34:14,371 --> 00:34:20,154

He is one of uh the Ewers brothers, as far as we're concerned.

401

00:34:20,597 --> 00:34:31,959

I spent many, many, many days, over the course of five, six years on all of it from Walden

to the full film at his place in Brattleboro, Vermont, brainstorming and talking and

402

00:34:31,959 --> 00:34:35,261

helping him, giving him the direction on writing.

403

00:34:35,261 --> 00:34:46,330

then, know, traditionally we would have screenings with Chris and Chris and I both kind of

compliment each other beautifully because he's so visually inclined.

404

00:34:46,606 --> 00:34:48,888

and I'm more the pieces parts.

405

00:34:48,888 --> 00:34:54,964

am visual, but I'm also the pieces parts, the picture, the sound and the music and the

story.

406

00:34:54,964 --> 00:34:57,277

So we couldn't have a better balance.

407

00:34:57,277 --> 00:34:59,489

um I was one of two editors on it.

408

00:34:59,489 --> 00:35:02,342

Ryan Gifford was the other editor on this film.

409

00:35:02,342 --> 00:35:10,549

And, you know, really, I always see it as a jigsaw puzzle where you don't know exactly

what the picture looks like on it.

410

00:35:10,549 --> 00:35:11,530

It's just a

411

00:35:11,530 --> 00:35:21,566

shape and you're trying to take different shapes which are the different components that

come from whether it's Chris's cinematography, whether it's archival imagery from the

412

00:35:21,566 --> 00:35:27,323

University of Wisconsin or some local historical society on Cape Cod.

413

00:35:27,323 --> 00:35:36,928

You get these unrelated images and you have to see how they'll fit together one after the

other and sometimes they fit beautifully, sometimes

414

00:35:37,016 --> 00:35:39,578

They don't, but they fit okay.

415

00:35:39,578 --> 00:35:49,024

And the process is just for a year or more, sitting with all of these materials and

saying, hey, you know, this one fits a little bit better here.

416

00:35:49,045 --> 00:35:56,951

Oh, all of a sudden two images from two archives that are thousands of miles apart

suddenly helped tell the story better.

417

00:35:56,951 --> 00:36:01,134

And the premise is always to keep your viewer in a place.

418

00:36:01,254 --> 00:36:04,124

That's how you bring them through a journey.

419

00:36:04,124 --> 00:36:14,320

of someone's life, you say, okay, here we are in his boyhood, which we chose to do a lot

of paintings ah from that time period.

420

00:36:14,398 --> 00:36:15,499

That was so great.

421

00:36:15,499 --> 00:36:23,154

There was one particular one where, I don't know, maybe the narrator or a talking head was

talking about them sitting on a branch, maybe.

422

00:36:23,154 --> 00:36:26,026

The boys, the brothers were sitting on a branch.

423

00:36:26,026 --> 00:36:27,196

You did that a lot.

424

00:36:27,196 --> 00:36:27,947

You would zoom in.

425

00:36:27,947 --> 00:36:29,458

And that is a Ken Burns technique.

426

00:36:29,458 --> 00:36:35,231

I've seen that a lot where he will, you know, use these paintings and just little pieces

of those paintings to describe.

427

00:36:35,231 --> 00:36:39,093

It's genius when you have nothing, when you have nothing else.

428

00:36:39,348 --> 00:36:50,376

And it's so funny because I've read a lot of the critics of Ken over time and they say,

oh, he's always doing the long pan and the tilt and staying within the images to which I

429

00:36:50,376 --> 00:36:53,748

usually speaking to myself or barking at the thing I'm reading.

430

00:36:53,748 --> 00:36:57,721

said, well, what options do you think there really are?

431

00:36:57,721 --> 00:37:04,026

If you're trying to tell a story that's back in time pre-photography and

432

00:37:04,186 --> 00:37:11,879

You know, it's like if if the image works and serves the point and keeps the viewer

engaged and intrigued in the story, then it works.

433

00:37:11,879 --> 00:37:12,754

And,

434

00:37:12,754 --> 00:37:16,091

somebody who doesn't understand visual storytelling clearly.

435

00:37:16,091 --> 00:37:20,026

you know, everyone can make their own film and everyone would make it differently.

436

00:37:20,026 --> 00:37:30,016

And that's one of the things Chris and I really have learned over the years as directors

is that we have to stick to the vision that we collectively agree on.

437

00:37:30,016 --> 00:37:34,060

And it might not be other people's visions of how to make the film.

438

00:37:34,060 --> 00:37:35,215

439

00:37:35,215 --> 00:37:37,139

talked about you both being directors.

440

00:37:37,139 --> 00:37:40,866

So now I want to know true, true truth.

441

00:37:41,268 --> 00:37:43,854

How did two brothers co-direct?

442

00:37:43,854 --> 00:37:45,299

me the down and dirty.

443

00:37:45,299 --> 00:37:46,621

How do we define that one?

444

00:37:46,621 --> 00:37:50,519

um It's really messy way back.

445

00:37:50,519 --> 00:37:51,431

446

00:37:51,431 --> 00:38:00,797

mean, like, look, you're, know, if you get married, you understand that, like, okay, this

is this is a partnership.

447

00:38:00,797 --> 00:38:02,278

It's forever.

448

00:38:02,278 --> 00:38:04,199

You're not always going to agree.

449

00:38:04,199 --> 00:38:05,540

Sometimes you're going to fight.

450

00:38:05,540 --> 00:38:06,100

Right.

451

00:38:06,100 --> 00:38:10,662

But the idea is, is that over time you figure out

452

00:38:10,882 --> 00:38:17,207

who you are and who the other person is, even if you're related to them, right?

453

00:38:17,207 --> 00:38:24,943

But you figure out like, okay, if I do this, I'm gonna get this response, you know?

454

00:38:24,943 --> 00:38:25,863

And vice versa.

455

00:38:25,863 --> 00:38:31,348

So, you know, it was not easy in the beginning by any stretch of imagination.

456

00:38:31,348 --> 00:38:33,770

And some people just can't do it.

457

00:38:33,770 --> 00:38:35,296

mean, Ken and his brother.

458

00:38:35,296 --> 00:38:40,499

originally started out making films together and realized that it just wasn't going to

work for them.

459

00:38:40,500 --> 00:38:49,850

Yeah, but, you know, I mean, I think it helps immensely that, you know, that we both also

have secondary responsibilities, you know, for the film.

460

00:38:49,850 --> 00:38:58,637

And I think that over time, we've, you know, sort of we've just found the middle ground

and creatively and emotionally.

461

00:38:58,663 --> 00:38:59,218

You

462

00:38:59,218 --> 00:39:05,778

I think we also like, we've learned and it's still a work in progress.

463

00:39:06,478 --> 00:39:09,278

We've learned each other's lanes.

464

00:39:10,438 --> 00:39:16,318

There are certain aspects of filmmaking that I am supremely uncomfortable with.

465

00:39:16,938 --> 00:39:28,554

And those are, you know, unfortunately for this podcast secrets between us, but there are

certain things that I just know I'm very uncomfortable with and

466

00:39:28,568 --> 00:39:31,421

It's, I believe, no accident that he is.

467

00:39:31,421 --> 00:39:35,566

And I think there are certain things that he is very uncomfortable with.

468

00:39:35,566 --> 00:39:46,436

And to learn how to rely on each other to bring the A game to things, um it works almost

seamlessly now, I think.

469

00:39:46,436 --> 00:39:50,439

I think when there's certain thing comes up, I'm like, Chris has got this.

470

00:39:50,439 --> 00:39:51,800

I don't have to worry about it.

471

00:39:51,800 --> 00:39:53,722

And he does the same thing.

472

00:39:53,722 --> 00:39:55,763

And that also includes

473

00:39:55,867 --> 00:39:57,407

like cinematography.

474

00:39:57,487 --> 00:39:58,687

can't tell you.

475

00:39:58,687 --> 00:40:11,627

Like when I say I go as a director with my director hat on to B-roll shoots or an

interview, I know that I'm there to suggest only.

476

00:40:12,047 --> 00:40:15,387

It's his vision, the way he wants to capture it.

477

00:40:15,387 --> 00:40:16,287

It's his expertise.

478

00:40:16,287 --> 00:40:18,487

It's what he spent his life doing.

479

00:40:18,687 --> 00:40:22,707

And I remember the early days when we were working on our film on the Mayo Clinic.

480

00:40:22,707 --> 00:40:26,049

I walk into a room, I said, Chris, film this and this and this.

481

00:40:26,049 --> 00:40:29,550

And he'd look at them and he'd say, no, I don't.

482

00:40:29,550 --> 00:40:30,272

And I'm like, what do mean?

483

00:40:30,272 --> 00:40:31,001

No, I know.

484

00:40:31,001 --> 00:40:31,973

I know I need those.

485

00:40:31,973 --> 00:40:33,975

And he's like, it's not going to look good.

486

00:40:33,975 --> 00:40:36,496

And if it's not going to look good, it's not going to hold up.

487

00:40:36,496 --> 00:40:39,978

And if it doesn't hold up, viewers won't be engaged by it.

488

00:40:39,978 --> 00:40:49,403

And I think there was some bristling at, you know, same with the editing when he'd come to

me and say, I think this should be this, this should be that.

489

00:40:49,403 --> 00:40:50,184

And in this order.

490

00:40:50,184 --> 00:40:51,869

And I'd be like, not really.

491

00:40:51,869 --> 00:40:53,760

you know, because here's the reasons.

492

00:40:53,760 --> 00:40:56,893

And we worked through it very quickly, I think.

493

00:40:56,893 --> 00:41:06,461

And now, sometimes we don't talk for a week or more with all this stuff constantly going

on because he knows I got that and I know he's got that.

494

00:41:06,461 --> 00:41:12,265

So that's the part I think that is the secret sauce between the two of us.

495

00:41:12,265 --> 00:41:14,817

The emotional stuff we've gone, we've worked through.

496

00:41:14,817 --> 00:41:17,969

We love each other and we care about each other.

497

00:41:17,969 --> 00:41:25,416

and our families and our work, our expertise, all choking aside because God, we could

start slinging shit back and forth.

498

00:41:25,416 --> 00:41:28,463

499

00:41:28,463 --> 00:41:29,645

in a house with five men.

500

00:41:29,645 --> 00:41:31,346

I know how that goes.

501

00:41:31,346 --> 00:41:35,449

There's a, love is the closest emotion to hate that I have ever seen.

502

00:41:35,449 --> 00:41:46,137

so, but what's amazing, what I'm hearing you say is that it really is important in

filmmaking, it's true in life, to really know yourself, to know yourself, to know who you

503

00:41:46,137 --> 00:41:48,118

are and what you are good at.

504

00:41:48,118 --> 00:41:52,330

And then to know what your partner is good at and respect them.

505

00:41:52,330 --> 00:42:01,157

and give them that freedom to own what they are good at and the freedom to operate in

their lane, like you said.

506

00:42:01,157 --> 00:42:03,304

So I think it's beautiful.

507

00:42:03,304 --> 00:42:04,626

it's an important point.

508

00:42:04,626 --> 00:42:16,467

mean, anybody who's been in the industry and is successful in the industry, obviously they

know this, but to others that don't or new to the industry, mean, you know, this is a team

509

00:42:16,467 --> 00:42:23,023

effort, know, like filmmaking is it takes a village in order for it to be good, right?

510

00:42:23,023 --> 00:42:24,304

Nobody

511

00:42:24,920 --> 00:42:35,200

You know, when someone, when a producer gets up on a stage and accepts an award for, you

know, for that, whatever project they were a part of, uh, it always pisses me off when,

512

00:42:35,200 --> 00:42:50,400

you know, they thank the studio and the, you know, all of the, the glad handing and, know,

and, necessary like obligations, uh, the obligatory thank yous and don't so often don't

513

00:42:50,400 --> 00:42:53,871

recognize the fact that, you know,

514

00:42:54,101 --> 00:42:55,492

those people wrote the check.

515

00:42:55,492 --> 00:42:59,043

It was the hundreds, you know, dependent upon the size of the project.

516

00:42:59,043 --> 00:43:08,949

It's the tens that, you know, or the hundreds of people, you know, who are very good at a

very specific thing that all come together to work as a team to collaborate creatively,

517

00:43:08,949 --> 00:43:14,161

which is incredibly difficult for some people, but absolutely crucial to the filmmaking

process.

518

00:43:14,161 --> 00:43:16,796

know, not none of us get to where we are.

519

00:43:16,796 --> 00:43:18,388

or where we're going by ourselves.

520

00:43:18,388 --> 00:43:20,310

just does not happen.

521

00:43:20,310 --> 00:43:32,111

you know, to understand your lane and to be, master it and let somebody else master their

lane is absolutely fundamental to, you know, to the whole process.

522

00:43:32,111 --> 00:43:36,892

And I got to say real quickly, you talk about knowing yourself is such an important.

523

00:43:36,892 --> 00:43:48,974

I think for people who watch your podcast to try to gain knowledge and wisdom from people

who have been in the business, that struck a very strong note, you saying that, and I

524

00:43:48,974 --> 00:43:51,085

appreciate it because I want to tell you,

525

00:43:52,064 --> 00:43:56,826

I have confidence in what I do in my career.

526

00:43:56,826 --> 00:43:58,468

I've had it for a long time.

527

00:43:58,468 --> 00:44:00,079

but I did not know myself.

528

00:44:00,855 --> 00:44:01,489

Hmm.

529

00:44:01,489 --> 00:44:09,722

say, all joking aside, in all seriousness, my brother, given his life circumstances, has

always known himself.

530

00:44:09,823 --> 00:44:16,066

He's always known who he is, and he brought that leadership to our collective team.

531

00:44:16,066 --> 00:44:25,150

And he gave me, and I stress the word gave me the opportunity to know myself and to find

out myself.

532

00:44:25,150 --> 00:44:27,061

And I mean,

533

00:44:27,271 --> 00:44:38,850

don't want to get over philosophical or sappy, but you know, I think that's one of the

most important parts of life is to really know who you are and what you expect of

534

00:44:38,850 --> 00:44:39,421

yourself.

535

00:44:39,421 --> 00:44:44,805

And I was kind of a lost and wayward person on that front.

536

00:44:44,805 --> 00:44:53,172

And talking about the value of documentaries, our own Hiding in Plain Sight was the film

that taught me how to search and find myself.

537

00:44:53,172 --> 00:44:54,224

That's beautiful.

538

00:44:54,224 --> 00:44:57,269

millions and Chris gave me the opportunity.

539

00:44:57,269 --> 00:45:00,154

That was our toughest hill to climb as brothers.

540

00:45:00,154 --> 00:45:03,300

But it happened and I'm forever grateful for that.

541

00:45:03,300 --> 00:45:05,984

So very important point that you make.

542

00:45:05,984 --> 00:45:06,976

543

00:45:06,976 --> 00:45:08,720

how Therovian of you.

544

00:45:08,720 --> 00:45:11,703

You know, I appreciate you bringing that out.

545

00:45:11,703 --> 00:45:17,808

Honestly, I've started doing a series and I'll follow this podcast up with it next week

called a deep dive.

546

00:45:17,808 --> 00:45:23,193

And I guarantee you it will be on this because this is so crucially important.

547

00:45:23,193 --> 00:45:25,114

I started my film company.

548

00:45:25,114 --> 00:45:30,472

um And one of the things I've always said is I wanted to do production differently.

549

00:45:30,472 --> 00:45:38,787

I've been in this industry over 45 years and I've seen how it's just ruined people, ruined

relationships and marriages and people's health.

550

00:45:38,787 --> 00:45:51,174

And I feel like it is possible to be in this industry and to create beautiful art together

and become better people if we do it in a way that is sustainable.

551

00:45:51,174 --> 00:45:53,896

um And it's exactly what you're talking about.

552

00:45:53,896 --> 00:45:58,010

It is supporting one another and bringing out the best in one another.

553

00:45:58,010 --> 00:46:12,203

And we have to create that environment for one another and that supportive place where we

can encourage one another and spur one another on to love and good works and where iron

554

00:46:12,203 --> 00:46:14,966

can sharpen iron is what you're talking about.

555

00:46:14,966 --> 00:46:17,238

And I think that can't be understated.

556

00:46:17,238 --> 00:46:22,980

So people who are listening, this is a beautiful example in these brothers' relationships

of something that...

557

00:46:22,980 --> 00:46:33,983

I feel like I was a teacher for 10 years and I think all of these things, whether it's

athletics or whether it's filmmaking or a theater class, those things are just tools that

558

00:46:33,983 --> 00:46:37,087

we can use to become better humans.

559

00:46:37,087 --> 00:46:39,277

And so that's what I hear you saying.

560

00:46:39,277 --> 00:46:47,813

Yeah, the outside barrage, the outside world, outside of your film company, outside of

your personal life, your internal thoughts, that's ceaseless.

561

00:46:47,813 --> 00:46:49,264

That's never going to stop.

562

00:46:49,264 --> 00:46:56,108

It's always going to be there, whether it comes from your own team, whether it comes from

people completely outside of that.

563

00:46:56,669 --> 00:47:05,276

It's knowing who you are inside that allows you to be the leader that can say, you know,

this is what I want.

564

00:47:05,276 --> 00:47:07,787

And the thing that's so great about

565

00:47:08,151 --> 00:47:16,428

brothers in a company or sisters is that you have the opportunity to, like he mentioned, a

marriage.

566

00:47:16,428 --> 00:47:20,812

You have the opportunity to develop that collective wisdom together.

567

00:47:20,812 --> 00:47:30,983

You borrow each other's strengths and you have to be willing and humble enough to see that

there are other people who are stronger than you in certain areas.

568

00:47:30,983 --> 00:47:35,016

But that leadership role of being a director, I, you know,

569

00:47:35,094 --> 00:47:47,041

Other than being an editor first and learning what makes up a film, which really made me a

better director, right there, right next to that is also understanding who you are, how to

570

00:47:47,041 --> 00:47:49,294

lead, and that was a process for me.

571

00:47:49,743 --> 00:47:52,524

Yeah, I love the humility and being honest about that.

572

00:47:52,524 --> 00:48:03,979

And I think one thing I have noticed about Ken Burns's company and the people that are in

his orbit is he has chosen people that he trusts and respect and that have, seems to me,

573

00:48:03,979 --> 00:48:07,313

the same value and kind of worth.

574

00:48:07,313 --> 00:48:12,667

work ethic and that can create this environment in the production company.

575

00:48:12,667 --> 00:48:14,548

And I think his work reflects that.

576

00:48:14,548 --> 00:48:21,444

And he's continued to like multiply himself and multiply that kind of Therovian mindset,

you know, beyond himself.