How Not To Suck At Divorce (00:00)

After decades on the bench, our guest today has seen what actually destroys families during divorce, and it is not always what you think. But lucky for you, you're listening to this episode of How Not to Suck at Divorce.

Morgan L. Stogsdill (00:51)

So I'm feeling happy today, I want you to know that.

How Not To Suck At Divorce (00:53)

I'm so glad. Congratulations.

Morgan L. Stogsdill (00:56)

You know what? Congratulations are in order because there are certain days, especially with our listeners, feeling the same way. It's like, good God, can this day end any faster? But no, the sun is shining. It's been a relatively knock on wood, uneventful day. And I'm looking forward to this topic today. But I want to say this to you, Andrea, because you don't know the guest as well as I know the guest. And at times this conversation, as much as you and I joke around, this conversation can be a little tough because

It's with the foremost expert on why you mediate over going to court. It's going to talk about scientific proven evidence as to what happens potentially to children if you drag them through the mud in court. So at times it's gonna get a little heavy, but no, it's not saying if you did this, you're bad. What it's saying is there's a different path for you and mediation is effectively in this guest's mind, the better route to go.

How Not To Suck At Divorce (01:52)

Okay. Keep your ears open, friends, and know that if there's something that you hear that you don't like, keep listening. It's all gonna be okay in the end.

Morgan L. Stogsdill (02:01)

Today, we are joined by the Honorable Michelle Lowrance, retired domestic relation judge, mediator, author, and one of the most respected trailblazing voices in family law and divorce mediation. Judge Lowrance spent nearly two decades on the bench in Cook County, Chicago after practicing family law for over 20 years prior to that. She's also the author of The Good Karma Divorce, which you can find on Amazon.

and has devoted her career to helping families navigate divorce with less destruction, less trauma, and more humanity.

How Not To Suck At Divorce (02:34)

But wait, wait, wait, that's not all. Because in addition to all that, the Honorable Michelle Lawrence is not only a child of divorced parents, she's been divorced herself, and she's recognized as a pioneer in the mediation space because of her holistic approach. She's also had numerous appearances on national news outlets, as well as being a regular contributor for Huffington Post. So.

my gosh, I'm out of breath with that intro. My God, you are accomplished. With that, Judge, Honorable Michelle Lowrance welcome to How Not to Suck at Divorce.

Michele Lowrance (03:05)

Me too.

I am so happy to be here because there is so much complications and things that aren't talked about that you guys are talking about and becoming thought leaders in an unfathomable, painful life experience. And what you guys are doing to put labels on the difficulties and the emotions.

and to give people a filter to look differently. I can't tell you how much I applaud and how much it is needed. Thank you.

Morgan L. Stogsdill (03:48)

Thank you. So what should we call you, Your Honor, Judge LaRance? We want to be respectful to you. What should we do?

Michele Lowrance (03:54)

Please,

Michelle works for me. I'm not a judge that I left that a while ago. I'm into a whole different dimension of what it really means to to sherpa people through this process. And it's definitely not court.

Morgan L. Stogsdill (04:07)

We thought you...

We're going to get there. We thought you might want to say, have us call you your highness.

Michele Lowrance (04:14)

Yes, yes, right. Yeah, I forgot my crown. If you would have told me it was possible, I could have worn pearls and clutched my pearls when we talked.

How Not To Suck At Divorce (04:16)

I mean, or maybe some.

Maybe.

Or maybe something more futuristic with the new dimension that you're entering. what you just said is so thought provoking about how the win doesn't happen in court. So I can't wait to get to that part of the conversation. But before we do, we have a few introductory questions.

Michele Lowrance (04:43)

Sure.

Morgan L. Stogsdill (04:43)

That's

right. I'm going to take a few moments to kind of to Michelle's horn because Michelle has mediated cases all over the United States. And yes, she's located in Chicago, but she does it other places as well. And she is fantastic. And Michelle, think what kind of makes you unique is you've got this unique perspective on divorce that not all mediators have. And one of the things that you do that's so unique to your practice is when you sit down the parties.

in the beginning, before you start mediation, you really give an amazing speech to them. Andrea and I always talk on our podcast about our fake couple named Chad and Brenda.

So if Chad and Brenda came to you to sit down for mediation and they were struggling in all areas, we're talking child custody, parenting time, finances, high conflict.

What would you start out, what are some of the sound bites or bullet points you would start out to kind of talk to them to get them into the mediation mindset?

Michele Lowrance (05:48)

People come to mediation because they imagine that their best case scenarios will be met, that there will be a hand holding sort of kumbaya experience where everybody's going to be really evolved and bring their best self to the table.

And actually, that's not what happens. And I'm talking about good people. I'm not talking about difficult people. I'm talking about that the process itself is so complicated because of the tug of war. And the tug of war is

your emotions, your anger, your disappointment, your heartbreak that the person you are going to spend your life with, that that's no longer your scenario. It is a bombardment on every level of human emotion. And that is what could be the greatest stumbling block to getting peace and resolution, because those emotions will always be in a fight.

and the tug of war between child-centered, doing the right thing, peace in the family, family legacy, they will be at odds in the best people because we are human. And when you have anger with the spouse, for example, and you're in that part of your brain that we call the amygdala, the fear centers, in that arena,

You can't be child-centered. You can't be future-focused and you can't be problem-solving. It's the other part of the brain. Not to be techie, but the cerebral cortex. And this is the fight and the trauma for people whose hearts are broken.

Morgan L. Stogsdill (07:31)

what you're saying is effectively Chad and Brenda could both be great humans, but they're just not going to innately bring their best self to mediation. It's almost impossible. before you start the process, what do you say to them to keep them in the process?

Michele Lowrance (07:44)

I say to them, your child was born and you remember holding that little boy in your arms and looking at that little boy and saying, my baby.

I will do everything in the world to protect you.

And you never forget that moment to only be fast forwarded into a mediation where your family is breaking up. And now the real protection brings its calling card. Now it's that vulnerable child who needs the protection you never thought you'd have to give them. So I explained to them that you will go back and forth and I will always ask you.

does that decision further your children's interest or does it sabotage their interest?

See, in mediation, there's a grief process, right? And the grief process is denial, bargaining, anger.

which the mediation process allows for all those. But if you go to court and don't settle, you never can come to acceptance. You can only go in the adversarial model, which is where your family is stuck for the rest of their career. People that go to court don't come back and play nice with each other because they have to malign each other in court in order to feel empowered in order to win. And that's very impossible to unravel.

So I let them know.

like and I have mediated much with Morgan and Morgan is the one who can get them back into their prefrontal, their thought problem-solving brain and we work together to do it because people are only human and I never hold it against anybody who becomes dysregulated, becomes angry, becomes resentful.

But it's our job to get them back to clarity and problem-solving mode.

How Not To Suck At Divorce (10:19)

So you just mentioned how Morgan plays an intricate part, or the Morgans of the world, but especially our Morgan, plays an intricate part of successful mediations because she's helping the client get back to that thinking, rational, logical thinking part of their brain. What if, because we have a lot of clients who don't have the ability to have an attorney assisted mediation, what if they're there on their own?

Who's guiding them then? And what can they do to be their own advocate to say, wait, stop. I am feeling right now and I'm not thinking.

Michele Lowrance (10:55)

Well, that would be the mediator's job. whoever is the mediator will be in a separate room with them and say, so if we do this and if we propose that connect the cow to the steak how is that help your children or is that a deficit to your children? Remember.

If you go to court, you probably will never have a civil word again with your spouse. You will put your children in harm's way in so many dimensions. Their world will never feel safe. If mommy hates daddy, then maybe mommy could hate them. If somebody stops loving you and stops acting loving, could that happen to you?

that every handoff of parenting time with a child becomes an anxiety producing event because the parents could get into it. When a child suffers from like so many kids ADD or anxiety, you go to court, the parents don't get together and say, what are we going to do to help? All they do is trying to fix who's to blame. You put the children in it.

they cannot recover from that. Life becomes a very anxiety producing event. So sometimes you have to keep reminding people even without lawyers.

Morgan L. Stogsdill (12:09)

So Michelle, my question is, because we might have listeners out there being like, yeah, that's great. I don't want to go to court either. I hate court. Court sucks. But my ex, let's just say it's Chad, and he's like, Brenda's a complete lunatic, high conflict, out of control. How the hell are we going to mediate with Brenda? Is there hope for those kind of people in mediation?

Michele Lowrance (12:30)

I have a philosophy. if somebody struggles maybe with borderline or some kind of anxiety dysregulation, should they be excluded from the benefits of having a peaceful divorce? Does it take longer Morgan? Yeah. Do they no longer qualify because they're difficult? Absolutely they qualify. They deserve to get out of hell too.

Difficult or not, I'm sorry. I just say figure out different strategies, learn about them, hear more not less, lean in, not out.

Morgan L. Stogsdill (13:02)

one thing you've taught me is that mediation kind of runs at the slowest person's pace. It really does. There are people that you just can't speed up and that's part of the process. But in my mind, avoiding court, even though it's a slower process than maybe you would have liked because you're meeting that person, maybe with the...

dysregulation or the disorder or he or she is a lunatic, you're meeting them where they're at, it's still worth it in my mind from what I see with my clients. It is still worth that slower process over court any day.

How Not To Suck At Divorce (13:34)

I'm going back to this person who has to lean in instead of lean out when all they want to do is run out and maybe put their head through a wall The idea, I think, is I've got to negotiate with somebody who's not logical. And they're hearing this conversation right now, right? And they're thinking, OK, yes, that's

That's wonderful, Morgan. Yes, I agree. And they're obviously respecting everything that you say, Michelle. But they're thinking, how the fuck do I actually do that? Like, how do?

Michele Lowrance (14:04)

Well, didn't

mean they lean in. I mean the mediator.

How Not To Suck At Divorce (14:08)

So does that then mean that it's really sitting on the mediator shoulders to have a good mediation, meaning the mediator you have can kind of make or break this thing working?

Michele Lowrance (14:20)

100%. 100%. Now, which is not to say, but, but Andre, that's not to say there's not such a thing as cases where somebody wants to punish the other side and feel like a judge is going to understand where they're right. And that there's some Wizard of Oz kind of wisdom that the judges have.

Morgan L. Stogsdill (14:21)

100%.

How Not To Suck At Divorce (14:21)

Yikes.

Yikes. ⁓ God, I was hoping you were saying.

Michele Lowrance (14:47)

that will make this all go away and prove to the other person that they're wrong and get them, and this is the out of control stuff that's so normal.

How Not To Suck At Divorce (14:57)

I think a lot of times people don't think that the mediator matters. That sounds like a giant misconception. I think a lot of people think, well, that's who they assigned us. We're going with, you know, Robert De Niro because that's who they said. I don't know this guy. Who's going to run our... First of all, can you imagine having Robert De Niro run a mediation?

I would get divorced again just to have that experience. But, right?

Michele Lowrance (15:22)

Yeah

How Not To Suck At Divorce (15:23)

Bobby De Niro calling the shots. But what?

Michele Lowrance (15:27)

I was thinking

Jason Momoa, but okay.

How Not To Suck At Divorce (15:30)

Okay, okay, fine. How would one, and I want to hear from both of you, how does one vet that the mediators that are being proposed to them would be the right fit for their case?

Michele Lowrance (15:43)

I would say.

How Not To Suck At Divorce (15:44)

check out their Instagram.

Michele Lowrance (15:45)

Well, mediators are all over. Google them to start and then have the interview with them. And really, whatever they say in the interview, feel it more than intellectualize it. a feeling, but are you being heard? Does that person lighten your spirit by the time you hang up the phone or do you feel

How Not To Suck At Divorce (15:58)

So cool.

Michele Lowrance (16:07)

darker and more worried. Read your body on something like that. You could hear all the right things in an interview and not feel all the right things. Trust your gut on that.

Morgan L. Stogsdill (16:20)

And you know, lot of times attorneys pick the mediator because they know mediators and they figure out who their client is and they know who the other side is and they pick the mediator that's best suited. if you do get a chance to interview the mediator, I agree. Because at the end of the day, what happens is there's going to be those tough moments in mediation and your client, the listeners who are listening to this podcast, you have to be 100 % trusting of that mediator.

because that mediator, if they're good, they're gonna go toe to toe with your lawyer, they're gonna go toe to toe with you at times, and they're gonna say in a nice way, you know, this is what you want me to bring back as a counter proposal. But did you think about this? Because if I say this or bring this out, it probably might not make sense, and here's why. You have to be open to that conversation, and if you're genuinely not meeting them personality-wise,

you're not going to be there. And so the mediation may not be successful.

Michele Lowrance (17:14)

It's called deflation. There's a point in every mediation where things do not go as you thought they might go. And the other side makes an offer that injures you to the core. How could they think I could pay this? How could they think I could only get a Tuesday overnight? And it feels like a core betrayal.

How Not To Suck At Divorce (17:26)

Mm-hmm.

Michele Lowrance (17:35)

And when the mediator, I sometimes call myself the canary in the coal mine because I have to make the offers that I'm given. And it's very hard when you're in an emotionally charged state to know that it's not the mediator's idea.

How Not To Suck At Divorce (17:53)

Mm-hmm.

Michele Lowrance (17:54)

The mediator should be there to give five different alternatives Maybe this, maybe that, maybe not.

there's going to be a deflation. Like, I loved Michelle. How could she make that offer to me? And I have told people, and I give sort of a mini lecture in the mediation on what it feels like to get the first round of offers and why it's so destabilizing. And it's that this is not working. How could they, how could she?

criticize my parenting, the ultimate cut of all, and then you have to kind of go back and start over and work with people where they are. It's really hard. It's way better than the alternative, but it's not fun.

How Not To Suck At Divorce (18:18)

Mm-hmm.

Morgan L. Stogsdill (18:32)

if you've got a really tricky case, you can bet that your first offers from from your side from their side are going to be horrendous. It's going to be their best, best, best case that they're never ever going to get. And that's why Michelle is talking about the fact that at that point, a lot of times, and this might just be in the first session, you walk out and you're like, you know what? Mediation isn't working.

this is bananas, like let's just stop this bleeding here. But any good mediation, you're going to hit that speed bump. And then also, if it's a complex case or there's a lot of issues in the case, you're also going to be at a point where you're always asking yourself, is this working? And that's when you know it's kind of working because you're at the point where you're like, all right, next steps, what are we doing?

the worst type of mediator in my mind is a waitress or a waiter. It's the mediator that goes to Chad's side and says, what's your offer? And Chad's side gives it, and they're like, okay, I'll be right back. I'm just gonna go deliver it to Brenda. There's no thought, there's no creativity, there's no pushback. Like that doesn't make sense, and here's why.

And that's what you don't want in a mediator. You want that mediator to ask the questions, to creatively think with you about how you're delivering offers.

Michele Lowrance (19:44)

you know, when I've mediated with you, I'll come in the room and you'll say, we have three different ideas, Michelle.

⁓ What do you think?

But what I want to say about the first offers is a really important thing. prepare them for the first round of offers. Look, it is legitimate to ask for your best case scenario. It is.

You have the right to do that. You have the right to feel like you didn't leave anything on the table when it's over. What it could have, should have asked for this.

but you have to prepare the other side for, you know, this is gonna really, really upset you because she's asking for too much in support. He's offering too much ⁓ in parenting time. You have to prepare them. Now I've had plenty of clients say to me, I know you tried to prepare me Michelle, but I could have never been prepared for that offer. Understand.

that the anger with the first round of offers is the cortisol flood, fear centers, anger centers, resentment centers of the brain. When you hit those centers, you are no longer functioning in a way that's family protective. You are not. The cortisol level, those chemicals do not start to come down at all for at least 20 minutes. So that the mediator and the lawyer have to sort of

talk through. If somebody is mad, you can't get them to make good sense in the crescendo of their anger. Nobody is listening to you. You have to wait until they're feeling better and say, are you ready to talk about it? If you're not, I'm not going to push you. Go take a walk. Go get a drink of water. Go get some green tea. But you cannot

reason with people in that state and you have to know

How Not To Suck At Divorce (21:30)

And I

Michele Lowrance (21:31)

would we be able to reason with ourselves. This is just human beings. This is not flawed people. These are good people, most of the time going through an eviscerating life event.

How Not To Suck At Divorce (21:42)

And I think that's where Western medicine meets Eastern medicine here, where there's a lot of thinking, but then there's a lot of feeling that's going on. And if we're ignoring our nervous system while we are going through this, you're not doing yourself any favors. And I'm not saying that you need to align your chakras and do a drum circle, but you gotta be aware if I am feeling lit up and I'm starting to shake,

Well, then that's probably a good time that you stop talking and you tell your attorney or you tell the mediator, I need to take a break. Because the other thing that I'm going to say is that you shouldn't wait for somebody to call you out and put you in a timeout. We're all big boys and big girls. Be aware of what's going on inside your body. Don't let it get to the point where somebody has to say, do you need a minute, Andrea? You look like you're about to explode.

I probably was feeling this 35 minutes ago, but I've been holding it together. So when you start to feel your temperature raising and you're getting upset, recognize that before you start making this situation a whole lot worse because you're just firing off.

Michele Lowrance (22:54)

I always ask people in the initial interview, are you a fight, flight or freeze? I always say, say, how do you, how do you do when you're, and people will say to me, I shut down or I'm aggressive and I get it. It's good to know. So that when we are in that moment where they're in whatever emotional state and I can say to them, is this the shut down thing we were talking about?

And here's, yeah, good to know. All right, let's work through it. And then you know who you have. If you have an arguer, if you have, we're gonna go to court, I'm gonna get you, we're gonna, it's good to know. Because then you have to know, you have to ride the chemicals. You have to ride them up and then you have to let them exhaust themselves a little and have a diversion subject to get them off the subject that they're going down the rabbit hole in.

I always ask people what you're interested in. What do you like to do? you like to make furniture? So I'll get them off the subject to talk about the furniture just so the chemicals can start to come down.

How Not To Suck At Divorce (23:52)

I feel like I would also ask people any chance you could be in menopause or perimenopause, Do you have an estrogen patch? Would you like to borrow one? I have extras.

Morgan L. Stogsdill (23:51)

So I wouldn't.

Anything and everything, just use it.

we always give our listeners action steps. That's the signature of the How Not to Suck at Divorce show because there's so many podcasts about divorce and you listen to it you're like, yeah, that was great. A few tidbits here and there, but can you give me some actionable steps?

Michelle, what do we want our listeners in the process to either think about differently or do differently? And can you think of three action items for them?

Michele Lowrance (24:26)

Well, one action item is when you are discussing your case with each other and you will. You know, sometimes it's not a good idea and sometimes the lawyer will say don't, but if you do.

You say, A, number one, is this a good time for us to discuss overnight camp? Because let's say you have difference of opinion and your spouse says, no, I don't want to talk about it now. That's fine. When can we talk about it? Well, how about next Tuesday? Good. You want to go have coffee? You don't impose your agenda when somebody is not

open to hearing it because that causes a power struggle, animosity. You make the rule that when you start feeling your chemicals go up in that conversation, you say, you know what, let's take a break. Let's resume this conversation on Thursday. You have rules of the road. You you don't interrupt.

How Not To Suck At Divorce (25:05)

Hmm.

Morgan L. Stogsdill (25:07)

I it.

Michele Lowrance (25:22)

Are you done saying what you need to say? You really do need conversation protectors.

How Not To Suck At Divorce (25:24)

Mm-hmm.

Morgan L. Stogsdill (25:27)

one, don't impose your agenda. That's an amazing action. Right. What about number two?

Michele Lowrance (25:30)

when someone's not ready for it.

Number two is to know that you will not always feel about your spouse as you do now. That you are not going to be stuck in hell and the decisions you make need to be future focused because you will not always feel this way. If you heal, you will be able to have a relationship. put your eye on the, and three is put your eye on the target

Try and do some healing work or decoupling work. Don't cauterize those emotions or cut them with an axe. Take a fine surgical approach and detach healthily. That way your life is going to be better, let alone your children. Get some help.

Don't try and figure this out alone, man. It's too big. It's too difficult. And scientists have said it's almost as difficult as losing a loved one through death. So allow you to take care of yourself.

Morgan L. Stogsdill (26:29)

I love those action steps. Before we wrap, Michelle, you wrote a book, The Good Karma Divorce. It's on Amazon. We're going to link it in our show notes, but give us a blurb about what it's about and why you wrote it

Michele Lowrance (26:40)

When you get a divorce or a separation, a breakup, you will not be the same when it's over. You can completely be the sculptor and the scripter of who you become.

So good karma divorce is for yourself. It's for your family, but who do you want to be when you look in that mirror when it's over? So that's what it really means.

Morgan L. Stogsdill (27:00)

Love it.

I love it. And our listeners can go and get the book whenever they want. And we'll link it again in our show notes. But Your Highness, Honorable, whatever you want to be called, Judge Lowrance thank you for joining us today.

Michele Lowrance (27:09)

Yes.

It's a privilege to be able, and thank you so much.

How Not To Suck At Divorce (27:18)

Okay, so I'm exhausted from that conversation and I know that it was really important and I just want to say if you ⁓ are also tired out there, you're not alone. Morgan, I know you're about to recap the three action steps that Michelle gave everybody. Before you do, I want to add one other step that I want. I think it's really important that

Everybody remembers, and that is this. Where we want you in the majority of your divorce to think more than you feel. When you are speaking to a mediator prior to choosing which mediator is going to be yours for your divorce, you have to feel. You have to pay attention to how you feel when you're conversing with this person. Do you feel more positive?

or do you feel all doom and gloom or maybe more anxious or nervous? Because that's a sign that it might not be the right fit for your case or for how you are wired. Okay.

Morgan L. Stogsdill (28:19)

Okay, yeah, some people need more touchy feely, other people are more fact and just want to get to the point. And that's why it's important to find that right fit. right, top three things that I took away today. Number one, don't impose your agenda on the other side. It's not going to work when you're imposing your agenda. You can get what you want by playing into what they're saying to you. And I loved how she talked about the fact that let them talk and then afterwards say, are you finished telling me what you think so that I can speak now?

Number two, you are not going to feel the same way about your spouse in the divorce as you do in the future. And I think the takeaway there is that you really need to think about when you're making decisions the future, which is hard to do because you're in hell right now. But that's why you have a great lawyer bringing you back to, yeah, this decision might make sense now, but does it in the future? Number three, we always say this, eye on the target.

You are healing every day you're going through this process, but your target is getting out of the divorce with your dignity and as much financials in your pocket as possible. And that includes children, of course, I'm not leaving them out. But I am the target is something that's sometimes easily missed in this process. So three fantastic takeaways by the judge.

How Not To Suck At Divorce (29:33)

and know that you can do something that's really hard. You can have a successful mediation with somebody who is completely unmanageable. And it doesn't mean that you're gonna come to an agreement on everything, but it does mean that you're gonna learn.

You're going to be able to pull out more details than what you knew before, and it will not just be a total waste of time on every level. And in order for that to happen, you have to align yourself with the team who can help you get to that place. You cannot do this on your own. So you need to be aligned with the right attorney for you. You have to have the right mediator for you. And you need to have some personal help and support to help you get through this wild process that I

I you, will make you so much better and stronger of a person on the other side.

Divorce is a marathon. It is not a sprint. This chunk of it, mediation, this is the marathon. This is the part where you are going to feel absolutely exhausted and you are going to want to quit. Keep going.

Morgan L. Stogsdill (30:45)

Don't quit, don't quit. And I've seen the messiest of cases be okay. please rate and review us. We love your ratings. It keeps the lights on. We joke around about that, but no, really it gives us the ability to have the most fantastic forefront guests on this podcast.

If you need more community, go to our private community, it's free. The community is fantastic. Or go check out our DCC online course. It is amazing with timelines and printables and a private podcast. All the things that we do so that you don't make the divorce mistakes that many people make. We're just trying to help you out a little bit more, make this process a little better because here's the deal. You have got this.

How Not To Suck At Divorce (31:24)

And we, my friends, have got you.