Doctor Karen Shanks, welcome to the QVC podcast. Thank

you. Thanks for having me. So

I'm so excited to talk to you because I really feel like you have

such a beautiful holistic view of a lot of

different things that you have sort of created through the

course of your career. And so I want to start at the beginning

of that because you are somebody

who, based on. Based on listening to your interviews,

you had a bit of a red flag about the medical system from the

moment you started training in it. But

thank you for persisting and being a change maker from the inside.

So could you sort of tell us you came

in, you know, you came into as a

medical student with one idea of what it would be

like only to be confronted with another. And seems to me you spent

a long time building a bridge between those two things. So tell us a bit

about what your initial experience with the system.

Yes, with the system, which I

was naive enough not to even understand it as a system, but

as, oh, the way it is, you know, how we

all are. So, yeah, I went into medicine with this very

naive but beautiful notion

that medicine was going to be all about connecting to human

beings and helping them heal. I had a background in

nursing and working with. In hospice

care and nursing care in the home and

people with, you know, disabilities and chronic complex conditions

and really getting to know them in the context of their homes and their

lives and their families. And it was so beautiful. And I

wanted to do more. And I thought that's where I was going. I

thought that's what medicine was going to be like, more of that, like, show me

how to do even more of that. And

that's not what I experienced. You know, I.

So as I prepared for medical school, I was immersed

in the biological sciences, physics, you know,

beautiful. I mean, I mean, it just. I loved every bit of that.

And the first year of medical school is like, all of that, like, in

a very concentrated, intensive form.

And I loved it. It was exciting. Oh, my gosh.

All this gorgeous biological complexity that we're going

to get to, like, use as a lens

to help understand what's going on with people and what makes them suffer

and how we can help them heal. And as soon as we

switched from that first year of all

biological sciences, human biological sciences, and

switched into our second year, it became all about

pathology, all about the problems that people

have looked at in a very particular way, looked at

through the lens of the disease model. What do we call

this thing that they have? What does it look like under the

microscope and at the same time we had a

pharmacology course. So it's like, and here's the drug that

fixes that thing. And it just confused the hell out of me. I didn't have

a way to or I felt deeply uncomfortable.

I felt disappointed. It was like it was a

crisis. It was a disillusionment. But I didn't know what

that disillusionment was until later. I kept going.

I was depressed. I was, you know, I'd be at

the bedside with teachers and other students and we're

sizing these people up in terms of what disease they have,

sort of discarding a lot of the information

that they were bringing to the table but didn't

fit that, that, that way of looking at them. And so, and

we talk about them in terms of their labels.

I don't know. It was, it was really, it was tough. So it

was kind of a, a dark night of the soul. I'm. I didn't know what

I was doing at that point, but I kept going. Something kept me going.

And same ditto for post medical school

residency training. I trained as an internist all and

mostly in the hospital. So people who are very

urgently, critically, acutely ill or, you know,

needing to be rescued from their problems.

And it wasn't until I finished and I did, you know, I was

too overwhelmed with the

just the all consuming time commitments of that

training to really like, reflect. What am I doing? Okay. I

think this is the path I need to be on. I have no idea why.

I have no idea where it's going. As soon as I started

practice day one, oh, I didn't learn a thing that I can apply

to these people. I didn't.

Of course I did, but I didn't, I didn't learn

what I needed. For people in the community with

the wide variety of chronic problems

and sources of suffering that they have, I don't, I didn't know

what to do. I had to start my training all over.

So that was. There was. There's another crisis. Oh God, I've got to start my

training. But that was. Went through med school,

which is the most intense of them all and, and it wasn't

enough. I have, I have a question. Yeah. Regarding the

disease model. Because so obviously I think the disease

model in and of itself is reductive, but I'm wondering if

it's become even less useful over time. Like my feeling

as an outside observer is that the

clusters of symptoms that people are showing up

with are. I feel like the medical

system is rushing to come up with new diagnoses, like almost every month I

hear one. I'm like, there's a, like there's a new kind of that.

And so I feel like it's becoming even less useful as the,

the symptoms that people are having and the. That's right. Random collision of

conditions is becoming more and more complex. Is that what you're seeing?

A hundred percent. So what I'm seeing is an evolution

of diagnoses that aren't really even diagnoses. They're descriptions

only. Chronic, chronic fatigue syndrome. What does that say?

The person's tired and we can deduce some things about

that, but we know nothing about the cause. And it's going to be a different

cause or constellation of causes in every

single individual with that diagnosis.

So I trained in functional medicine

subsequent to my conventional training. And what we learned to do

is just set that disease box aside and let's look

through a new lens. Let's look at everything differently. Let's look at

it through a whole person model and let's look at it through a

systems biology model which is so much more complex than

what we do when we put somebody in a disease box and go

through a differential diagnosis which really doesn't get people.

It's perfect. If you're in the ER and you're having a heart attack

or you have a great big cancerous tumor and it, it has

to come out, that's. That disease model is perfect for

that. So this isn't about like all just, just throwing

out the, you know, western medicine because

it is so good at what it does, it's just

terrible at everything else.

Yes. You know, and having, having come through.

What I call chronic fatigue because I don't know what else to call it.

I would completely agree with you. We're just describing these

conditions. And what I'm also seeing, and I've personally experienced and

hear over and over, is that they don't

start out as full blown crises. So the

medical model doesn't tend to have much

to say. But people's quality of life

is going down kind of earlier and earlier in

chronologically and just sort of in, in the process. It's. That's

right. And so I'm wondering what your thoughts are on that, what's

leading to that and this, this gray area of not

living our best lives, not being as healthy as we could be,

but also going to the doctor and they're like, yeah, your labs are fine.

Basically the message is like, come back when you're in crisis. But there's this

there's like, decades of gray area. That's Right. Lowering quality

of life. So then we're adding. Not having

answers. What we're adding to not getting our answers from the

Western medical model. We're adding being

gaslighted by the medical model. Right. Like, oh,

well, I don't know what to tell you.

And I've had patients come to me and say that their doctors

said outright, there's nothing wrong. Go to the psychiatrist.

It's probably just stress. I mean, they're. They're outright

gaslit. But even those

physicians who aren't willing to, you know, to say that

the, the implied

explanation for your suffering is that

something's wrong with you and the way you're perceiving

things, that's the message we walk away with. I've been through. I've been through

that same thing. I mean, even knowing that this is going

on in medicine, I've also experienced that sense of,

like, falling through the cracks. Oh, my God. There's really something wrong with

me that isn't, like, real, you know,

so, yeah, that is.

That's huge. And so when I end up working with.

By the time they come to me, they have a problem

that's, you know, it's a train that's kind of rolling

off the tracks because so much time has gone by, and

they haven't had abnormal labs, which doesn't mean there aren't

labs out there that could explain what's going on with

them. Right. You know, a huge part of the problem is

that docs for a long time now have not

had time to hear the whole story, to put all

the pieces together. Most of the people who come to me are not, you know,

you know, they're labeled as mystery illness. You

know, chronic fatigue syndrome, whatever. Once I dig in and give people

the time they need to tell their whole story and look through all their

medical records, everything that's been done so far, it's usually not

rocket science. It's usually not anything mysterious.

Right. It's just that I've decided to build my practice to meet

people's needs, not to meet my needs or the needs of a system.

So I don't have time constraints, and I may spend two

to four hours with a new client and all

their medical records, and we come up with some really

simple things that need to be adjusted, and off they go.

And they're great. They do great. That's

such a good point. It's like, it's not necessarily a mystery illness.

It's a mystery illness that can't be solved in a 50 minute appointment.

That's right. That or by people who only have a disease

box mentality. Not let's. Okay,

they're tired. That suggests some mitochondrial

dysfunction. Okay, how do we look at mitochondrial dysfunction? Why

do mitochondria fail to make the energy that the

person needs? And then you, you know, and there's a whole algorithm you can go

through from the structure of the mitochondria to know

toxic influences on the mitochondria. I mean there's a

whole, there's a whole spectrum of things that we have to think through

and, and that's all known human

biology, that it's just a

process. So. Yeah, yeah, I, I'm, I

can't excuse my colleagues practicing in, you

know, in what, in typical Western medicine

settings for not being able to help the majority

of people who walk through their doors, who walk away without that help.

Right. And in many cases are sent down a

prescription spiral that makes everything worse. That's right.

That's right. So I feel like my job,

my, my role, huge part of my role is to

empower people to like question and

trust that. You know, most of the people

who come to see me, they have known from

the beginning on some level that medicine just

hasn't gotten them yet, you know, but it's,

it's so overwhelming and it's so difficult to trust that

when every, the world trusts Western

medicine and what comes through the scientific method, what,

you know, what comes into Western medicine as the facts?

Here's how humans operate, here's what's wrong with humans.

Right. It's a paradigm

of understanding that really doesn't get us in our complexity

and so has really no business in the realm of chronic

illness. We need a whole other

medicine for that. That is absolutely

the truth. That's a perfect way to say it. It has no business with

chronic illness. I know. Yeah.

Oh, I love that because I've,

I know that something you also are quite passionate about is this idea

like the way that you've just framed the system as looking

at us as though there's something wrong with us. We then internalize that.

That's right. And we feel like if we have a

symptom or, or a condition or something's not right, there's something wrong with us.

And even those of us like really committed to, you

know, who have high personal agency and are doing a lot of research, we sometimes

just move that mindset over to a different path.

So even if we're on a path that is meant to be more

Natural and compassionate and aligned with

nature. We still bring in that mindset of, like,

oh, well, if I'm not better yet, I'm doing something wrong. Right?

That's right. And I call that grain medicine. So it's the same

paradigm. It's linear.

It's still putting us in some kind of box. Oh, you.

You've got gut dysfunction or, you know, a leaky gut,

or, you know, we give it different names, but then we're still trying

to fix that thing with some kind of magic bullet.

And if we don't get better, we failed. And it's

really hard to resist that, to resist thinking about things that way,

because we have all these cognitive biases that are,

you know, we think we kind of glom onto the most

negative way to view something. We try to

simplify things as much as we possibly can. I get that. I

want. I mean, I feel that in myself, I want to understand things

in a very simple way. But that

often leads to us, like, getting in our way. Like, we can't make any

progress if we aren't, like, curious and open to possibilities

that we don't even know exist, if

that makes sense, you know,

so that's. Yeah, it's an interesting journey of

discovery. When we're on a healing path for any kind of

chronic illness, chronic complex illness, chronic

sources of suffering, or just want to. Want to

feel robust and resilient

and, you know, function at a very high level,

is to come at it in a very loose,

open,

oh, how do I want to say that? Just like staying

curious. Just staying very curious and

asking people to. For asking experts to help us

reading, doing all the things we feel

called to do, remaining

healthily skeptical, which is a form of curiosity,

and then just, okay, I don't feel a whole lot

better. After doing X, Y and Z, though it seemed like a reasonable thing to

do. I wonder what else there is to do. Let's do

some more exploring. But doing it in a way and just an open, curious way

and not a way that blames us and that we're all

terrible about that. We blame ourselves, we blame our

bodies. That's basically what we're doing when we say, something's

wrong, something's broken, something here needs to be fixed.

We're blaming our bodies for how we feel, for our

suffering. When we're really not stuck at a point

where something isn't working. We're on an equilibrium that's

constantly changing. There are so many aspects to who we are

that are operating at all times. I call that the Terrain, the

terrain of our healing, all the things about our lives that make us

us. Whether we're talking about movement or sleep or

love, how we're connected, how we're, you know, what's happened to us

in our lives. There's so many moving parts.

So we're always shifting along this equilibrium of whatever you want to call

it, health, resilience, suffering. So the

equilibrium may feel like suffering, it may look like chronic illness, but it's

really this dynamic place that has. There

are so many inroads to shifting where we're at on that

equilibrium. And one of the things I like to do is show

people that terrain. Look at all these things that are part. That are part

of what makes you you. That all

feed into your genetic expression. Which means

we can shift our genetic expression to shift where we

are on that equilibrium through all kinds of things that we

can do that we have control over.

By doing that, we can rise out of a lot of the things that make

us suffer. We can rise out of chronic illness. In

fact, I don't know another way to do it in a sustainable way that

addresses our problems and our sources of suffering at

the most root cause.

Yes. And I love this because I've like,

haven't really found a way to articulate it, but it's almost

sort of like we're on this, taking turns,

a little bit of like pushing ourselves forward and trying a new thing, but then

having this space to

integrate it and then open up to whatever

needs to come next. But not feeling like we're on a treadmill and

not feeling like we need the next thing because we've failed.

We just need the next thing because that's what we're ready for.

I like that way of thinking about it. I mean, I think that's. We can

only do so many things at a time. And the more we know

we've humans have been studied for along the human brain, the more we try to

do it one time, the less effective we are at anything. So it really

is important that on a healing path, on any path, any

path of growth, we just choose a thing or two to

focus on and really, really. And give it its due. And as soon as

it's worn out, it's welcome or it's just not serving you

anymore. No matter how enthusiastic your

acupuncturist is about what they're doing for you, if you don't feel

better and you start to feel like you're on a treadmill, it's okay

to walk away that. That thing. Okay that wasn't. It either didn't work

or there's so many things going on with you, you just can't

feel the benefit even there, even though there is some benefit there.

And I think most people have a sense for whether

something is benefiting them or not, you know. Yes.

And be empowered to walk, to walk away. Go to

the next thing, exercise your agency.

You're, you're in charge, you. And you

actually have the wisdom inside you to know

what to do. But people definitely

don't understand that or believe that some people do. But

most people need some encouragement, especially when they're suffering. It's so hard

to suffer, suffer, suffer, you know, in so

many ways and then have to

come up with the next right thing to do on your own.

I've been, I've been there many times.

It's true. I, in my, I,

my background is in, in coaching, like, you know. Yeah. Executive coaching

type stuff, not health. And I remember there, this one guy

was like, most people are playing an

unwinnable game. They have set up an unwinnable game

for themselves. And I just, I mean, I heard that years and years ago and

it always sticks with me because that's sort. Of what you just described. Yeah,

it's like we were in the suffering,

but we set it up in a way that it's always, always our fault

no matter what we do. I know, I know,

I know. In some ways I think we have to unravel that first. Right. We've

got to kind of give people

permission to be really tender and compassionate with

themselves as they navigate the healing journey

and just do a few things at a time and

hold all the experiences with compassion. You know, we're never

wrong for the way we feel. Our feelings are actually.

Our feelings aren't there to torture us, they're there to show

us the way. But we tend to want to

erase the, the feelings that make us suffer

or, or sensations, symptoms, whatever, whatever it is we're talking

about. We want to erase suffering

rather than walk into the suffering. What do you have to teach me?

Where, where do we go next? Like it's a portal and

if we look at it that way, we're going to get somewhere,

you know, we're going to get somewhere. As soon as we say we're wrong

in whatever colorful way we say that

it shuts us down. So that

I feel like that's the primary work I have with my client every time I

meet with them, you know, is to help

them have that forward looking view

and that they're holding everything

with that compassion and that curiosity that they need in order

to access the wisdom that's inside them. And that may sound

kind of woo woo to those who are listening, who

want me to talk about the science of human potential,

but it really is the, it's where it has to start. It is for

me, I have to start every day in meditation, kind of reviewing

all that and affirming all that for myself. Because there's something

to suffer for every single day. And you know.

Yes, you said, you said something really interesting a few minutes ago.

You're like, there might be benefits. And I think it's related to this topic

of suffering. Like you might, there may be benefits happening that.

But you aren't noticing them or feeling them. And

I've heard this lately from people, especially,

you know, the people that I talk to like you, that we

tend to not recommend like a pill that's going to make a big difference

overnight. It's like, you know,

more lifestyle. And so that I've heard from

practitioners lately, like that challenge of people be like, no, nothing's happening. No,

nothing's happening. And like as you dig, you realize there's been a tremendous

progress. But we do have that.

We don't notice, we don't feel, we can't see it. Yeah, right.

What's going on there in your experience? Yeah, well,

part of it is a negativity bias. We look at

what's not working and glom onto that and

it's more difficult for us to look at

what good is happening, what progress has been made.

And that's a known bias of the human

psyche, which is why it's so

important, especially during times like right now,

what's going on in the world, what's going on with our government. We have to

have ways to shift our attention to things that are

beautiful because otherwise we're just going to be scrolling

and you know, and watching the news and staying in

a high survival state.

And yeah,

that is a attribute of the human brain that kept our ancestors

alive during really complex times on Earth. So,

so but knowing that we can intentionally

shift our attention to something else, something that

feels nurturing, something that makes us feel

enlivened some, you know, we just have, that's our, that's

our responsibility to do that. The

other thing, what did you. There was something else I was going to say about.

Oh, what did you say? What was the first thing you said that you heard

me say? It was about like not noticing when we

make progress or not noticing, like there may we're doing

something and there's a benefit. And it's like, no, this isn't working.

Nothing. Nothing's changed. But in fact. And sometimes it

is that negativity bias and that. So I like, I'm practically

interrogating my people, like, every time I see. Okay, I want to. All

right, tell me what happened. Okay. You know, and we may. We

may discover there are things that have improved. People

with chronic complex illness have a lot. There's a lot going

on, and there are a lot of moving parts. It's more a

constellation of things that need attention than a thing.

It's never a thing. It's never a thing.

And so sometimes there's. One of my mentors put it

this way. He had this three tack rule. Have you heard this before? The

three tack rule. If you sit on three tacks,

it's going to hurt like hell. It's going to hurt like bloody hell. And no

amount of ibuprofen or anything's going to make you feel better.

Take two tacks out, you've taken care of two thirds of your problem.

That sounds huge, and it is huge. But one tack still hurts

like hell. So for some, and I

explain this to my clients, and I know it's such a leap

of faith for them to hold on when we've done so

much and there's so much progress, but they still don't feel. Feel the way they

need and want to feel. We've got to get to that last tack.

We've got to do the 20 things. And sometimes we don't have to do all

20 things. We identify. Sometimes a couple of them are like

hubs that are responsible for some of the other things that have gone.

Gone wrong. Like you've. You talk about light and circadian rhythms,

and sometimes a problem like that, we fix that,

and then a whole bunch of things downstream to that just,

you know, get. Get into the groove that we need

them to. We don't have to, like, fix every single thing.

Yes, that. And that does make so much sense. I

love that three tack because, yes, two of them are out, but you still got

a tack in your. In your bottom. Like, what if

that is a big, big problem? What if you're sensitive to gluten

and you've got. You live next door to a farm

with a bunch of chemicals flying all around and

which you can't do anything about because you, you know, you're not going to be

able to. Yeah, you're just probably not going to be able.

And you. You

don't sleep Those are three huge things.

Now, maybe if we get the sleep in order, which.

And get it onto a, you know, to a correct circadian

rhythm, maybe all the other things, you know, the gut will heal

the, you know, maybe that'll address everything else but for people to really

feel better. And people deserve to get a little taste of that

feeling better after suffering for so long. And so.

And I just thought of what I was going to say to what you had

said earlier. Sometimes we use a pill

that may not. May only be a band aid and it

may not address the underlying causes at all. But if we

can reduce suffering, we're going to. That is such a.

People begin to feel the safety. They begin to feel the hope.

I always explain what we're doing. This isn't going to

cure you. This is just going to make you feel better. But that's huge. You

get your wits back about you and get

you really in the flow of what we need to do to address those

more root cause issues. I am not opposed to

using conventional medicine.

Yes. When it is going to serve a valuable purpose, but we're not going

to rely on it. It's not our solution. Right.

It's like a bridge out of a bad situation.

I'm the same way. I'm like, if it's really bad, it's like, just give

me enough relief to be able to do what I'm supposed

to do. But I can't take those steps from where I am when it's

really, really bad. Exactly. It's compassionate. That's

compassionate care. Yeah. Yeah.

Okay, so I want to talk for a few minutes about epigenetics.

Yes. And I love, because I loved how you explained it.

Well, I have just. Okay, just give us your. Give us

your. Your description of it. That

our genetic destiny is not set in stone. Yeah,

we're not. We weren't designed

to follow in the

exact trajectory as our parents and our grandparents.

That actually. The genetics. So the genes

don't change. Our genes are set, but the way they express

themselves, especially how they express themselves together,

is very fluid. And it's dependent on

basically everything that happens to us.

Everything we feel, everything we experience,

everything we ingest, everything about us and

the terrain that makes us us is going to. Is going

to result in some shift in genetic expression. In fact,

most of our genes, like over 99% of our

genes, are regulatory genes that do this

shifting, turning on and off. They. In response to what happens to

us. And that little minority are the genes that

actually code for the proteins that create Our structure and function.

So we have these endless inroads to shifting

our genetic expression, to change our biology, to change

where we are on that equilibrium of function as a human being.

And that's our. Like,

that's the magic of being human and addressing

our suffering and chronic illness at the most root level. Cause

we know so much about how to shift genetic expression

and some areas more than others. But. Yeah.

So then we think about the terrain and all the ways we

can shift genetic expression and we look at

what might be the priority areas. And people usually know what those priority

pri. Priority areas are. Or I, I can help them as I look at

what's happened with them and what their. What their life is

like. And we use

that whole principle of epigenetics to heal.

And epigenetics applied to the brain and the

nervous system is neuroplasticity. So we can change the

structure and function of our brain. We can change how it operates.

When I was in medical school, we didn't know this or it wasn't being taught

at the time. So the brain was like set.

Set, you know. Yeah. So you got to learn

everything there is to learn by a certain. By. By the best by date, and

then it's over. So I certainly grew up thinking that.

Oh, absolutely. I call it the. The science

of directable human potential. It's the science of

possibilities. It's just we. And they're endless because there are endless

combinations of these sh. In genetic expression. So I would.

There's never a time when I would say, okay, we've done all we can do,

because that's just not even possible to get to that point.

Yes. And some might call me an

idealist to a fault, but I don't think, I don't. I just don't think so.

I don't. I mean, how could, like, and who are you

to. Who is that person to say, no, it's done the. That there

are no more probabilities left. Like, of course there are.

Absolutely. Absolutely. That's. That's how I operate.

Yeah. And I. When you talk about like the

1% of the DNA,

that was also something that we were all sort

of primed to believe is that that was all there was.

And that is still holds on. They called it

the Human Genome Project. I think that was in 1990,

which, which all this came to light. And they called it junk

DNA. That 99% of our DNA that didn't code

were proteins that became our structure and function. They called

it junk DNA. Can you even believe

it? This is like such an example of

the scientific paradigm that.

That is really. I. That has just took us. Taken us down such a

terrible road. It's like we. We want to talk about this

1%. So all of the. The 99% that is

an anomaly to what our hypothesis is, we will

call junk. And you want to stay on the. Track that

we would like to stay on the science. Thanks, guys. The

science revealed the way things were. It revealed the

1% versus. But it was scientists who

had the audacity and the arrogance to

make the assumption without looking at. Look.

Looking any further, made the assumption that that was all junk just sitting there.

That was. That's just. That's human arrogance. And so that's a lot of

what's involved in why we've evolved. Evolved a

medical system that is still so reductive and

looks at people as machines and. And many parts, many

problems. This is the. This is not the fault

of a, you know, a God of science. This is like

people and how they handle the science and how

they. How limited their brains are.

For all you scientists listening,

I'm not talking about all of y', all, but, you know, and I'm. And we

all. We all can do that, right? Make assumptions. We make. It's what

we do all day long. Yes, of course. But. But I would. I would just,

you know, if I'm like, have an idea and I get in there and it's

like 99 of the stuff I'm looking at doesn't line

up with the idea. Maybe I

change my idea instead of labeling it junk.

Yeah. And basically, I'm sorry, but they.

They condemned generations of people to breast

cancer and things like that because we just reduced it to having this gene.

And only recently, it's like, well, actually,

if the gene is the bullet, what pulls the trigger? Like, that's

sort of what doctors are starting to say now. Yeah,

that's right. But we could have. We could have got there sooner, and that's still

like a somewhat simplistic. And we did

because there's some scientists who took it further. Yeah.

And epigenetics evolved. And it's

an. Epigenetics has been a very lively field of

study for, I don't know, before the genome project

even. But it hasn't filtered down into

clinical practice at all. Right. Or it

hasn't. I don't see the evidence of that. Is

that. That shocks me, being a North American

woman through going through your 40s.

Everybody has a friend or a friend of a friend who had a breast

cancer diagnosis. Yeah, right. Like, that's just how it is. I lost a

very close friend to breast cancer. And there is no

epigenetic. None of them are. And they

all go to the best anyway. I won't get into it. They all go to

the biggest and best hospitals to get treatment, which, you know,

great. Good for you. But the. But when they're

talking about but then there's no other discussion beyond that.

There is no epigenetic discussion. That's right. We don't look

back at the trend. Okay, let's take care of this cancer. We need to get

this tumor out. We need to get as much of the visible

cancer out. And there's a lot of good

evidence that because of how savvy cancer cells are,

getting what you can see out of the picture gives us a better

chance to activate all that

epigenetic potential so that there's a lasting

cure. But you're right.

Cancer treatment in general doesn't address

the terrain in which that cancer emerged. And

sure, there are genes that

increase people's risk, but it

is an absolute. What are all those other factors and why aren't they

being studied more vigorously? You hear about

the lone scientist out in North Dakota. I remember

this was at a conference once. She was studying the effects of

eating cruciferous vegetables on how the

liver pathways for clearing estrogens,

for biotransforming estrogens.

She was studying those pathways. There were some

that were associated with a higher risk

of getting breast cancer and certain autoimmune disorders.

There were other metabolites of estrogen that were very safe

and appeared not to be associated with that. She was

looking at an epigenetic phenomenon, but she's just some

obscure scientist. I don't know what happened to her. It was so

such exciting information to me. And I've never heard about it

since that time. Right. It's not

sexy. It's not popular. There's no funding for it. You

know, it's the science

that happens is what people care about and will put money on.

And it's all about the paradigms that the funders built believe

in and how they're going to benefit from. From that

research. Like, you know, drug companies supporting research that

will. And even these hospitals. I still get the letters from, you know,

Dana Farber or whatever they like, you know, donate

your money so we can cure cancer. And I'm like, you're not going. You have

no interest in curing cancer, first of all. And second of all,

you're. You're not going to. There's so much to look at that. As

to your point. Point is being completely ignored. Yeah, that's

right. And. And I, I do believe that the scientists, most

of the scientists really, in their heart of hearts, would want

to cure cancer. Yes. But there are so many competing commitments

to other things and so many limits on what they can do to

get tenure and get the notoriety and the success in their field.

It's just. It's a quagmire, you know,

It's a quagmire. And again, it's

responsive medicine. It's not. How do we live our lives

early as children, beginning as children so that we are

resilient to disease?

How do we do that? And isn't that the most downstream

place to focus our attention? But,

you know, that's where medicine should start. It's not what's going on

in this institution. It's like. Yeah, where do we begin?

I think we begin as people shifting our understanding

of how we work and teaching that to our children and

creating healthier lifestyles. And it. And

it feels like such a big ask,

you know? Yes. But I mean, I

think that comes back to what we were discussing earlier, where we've

been trained to kind of blame ourselves, but we've

also been trained to hand the power over to a medical

authority. That's correct. So to take that power

back. Yes. Feels like a huge

burden in some ways because it's so much

easier. Yeah, yeah. To. To

absolve ourselves of that responsibility.

We're scared and we feel so vulnerable. And we've been

since the day we were born. We've been disconnected from ourselves and

our own wisdom by all the institutions.

Not as a malicious thing. I'm not saying any. It's a conspiracy.

It's just how it is.

And yeah, we totally outsource our health and well being

to institutions like conventional Western

medicine. They're the experts. They know everything.

Science knows everything. Even

though science is a construct created by human beings that is, as

you said before, very reductive, looks at us in a very

specific and incorrect way.

And then we base all of our assumptions on what goes wrong with people

and how people can best heal based on that science that

is not adequate to understand us. And our true needs

were too complicated. You know, we're very. We're complex.

We don't fit in that little box. And

that came out of an era when that's, you know, the powers that

be. The politics of the time. This is back in the 16,

1700s, the scientific revolution. That's what they decided

that's how they decided to look at people. The body goes to

science. The mind and all the intangible parts of people

went to the church. And. It

hasn't changed a bit. Even though we all know better.

You talk to anyone, you know, you go into a coffee shop and start. You

can talk about this stuff. Everybody kind of knows we're whole.

There's more to us in our bodies, but

that's not how medicine is practiced, right?

So we're kind of like, oh, yeah, we're all. We're

whole. Mind, body, spirit, blah, blah, on and on, all the

words strung together. But we also. We

think of our. We all also think of ourselves as separate. We're

separate parts. And if we walk into the doctor's office, we are.

We expect to be treated like just a

physical body.

That's true. And it doesn't feel good. And

I know people have really close, wonderful relationships with their physicians, even

if they're still, you know, conventional medical model. And that feels

good. There's the empathy and the caring and concern, and that's

beautiful. That's very healing. But everybody knows, you know,

when you're really in trouble and you go to the doctor, you go to the

hospital, you're a body.

So if. If Dr. Karen Shanks was in

charge, oh, what.

How would. How would we look

at, let's say, a patient, if we would even use

that word, what would the model be?

You know, in your sort, in your ideal world of

how to think of ourselves, how to think of the people that we're working with

and helping? I think everybody in

healthcare needs to understand that they're working with this very

complex whole human

system organism that has more

intangible tangibles that you'll never understand

or be able to explain, that

that's who you're dealing with. And it really is

inadequate to just focus on biomarkers

and symptoms. That is wholly

inadequate. Now, as we build

this new ideal health care, whatever we do need

conventional Western medicine because there are too many people on the

precipice of dying or

who are suffering, who are in. And there

wouldn't be that number of people. There are, you know,

billions of people. Can I say billions? Well, I don't know.

I don't want to go too far out there, but there are

trillions of people across the planet who

have some sort of chronic, complex or just chronic, let's just

say chronic illness or source of suffering.

And the part of the fault of that is a

medical system that only reacts to problems that are

already

revealing themselves in symptoms

and catastrophic circumstances. If it weren't just a

reactive healthcare system, we wouldn't have so many sick people.

So there is a place for western medicine.

Treat that cancer, at least start that process,

fix the broken bone, repair the,

put the stents in the coronary arteries to

prevent a heart attack or whatever it is,

countless things. I think that to some extent we're

always going to need a system of

medicine like this because there are problems that we can't

even blame on, on having a

reactive system. I had a spontaneous retina

tear a few years ago. I had to have a retina specialist

repair it and save my eyesight. And that,

and that was absolutely fantastic.

But it didn't help me understand if there's

something underlying that I can address in a better way.

Whether there is or not, I'm very nearsighted. From what I understand

from functional ophthalmology, we can do something about

nearsightedness, you know, when we all just assumed that's just a thing.

You're born nearsighted, you're born farsighted anyway.

So, but, but then we, we need a, we need a whole system

of health care that gets in there,

has no time constraints, welcomes the

whole person and everything that makes them who they are. And it's

a team of players, physicians, you know,

all, all the healers of all sorts who come

together and can address the whole person, address

their trauma, address their, you know,

relationships, help them with lifestyle

things. Things that need to be shifted.

Yeah, we need that. And it might even be.

Ideally, it's kind of continuous with

what we provide young people through our

education systems and model for them by the

food that we serve them at their schools and we

teach young parents how to cook. And it's just a

whole societal cultural shift that we need to make

toward a healthier lifestyle. And there are a lot of

moving parts to that.

So that probably didn't help you. I don't think I put that

into a nutshell for you, but. Well, I mean, there's probably

not a nutshell that it would fit in, which is, which is what

we keep trying. To do is just, we are all

right, we're off track of a wellness trajectory for our lives.

We're completely off track as a nation, as a

culture, the western, the global planet at

this point. And I think

the first step is just acknowledging that that is true and

that our current system of medicine cannot address us and

our long term needs for healing

and for just creating resilience

and robustness. It doesn't have the tools or the understanding to do

that. We need. That's where we need to start. And then it could be even

not a second system of medicine, but just,

you know, communities just have a variety of

healers who come in with that holistic perspective about

human. Humans and how they function, how they heal.

Because we're all different. We all need and want different.

Different things. Yes, I do. And I have a

whole team. So, you know, Team Karen. Everybody's got

it. Everybody will build their team of people that help

them. And we all need help. Yeah. And I think again,

it comes back to us having to realize that we need to do that.

Right. It's like, oh, I have a job and I have health insurance

done. And you know, like what we do, we have health

insurance for the most catastrophic situations.

Yeah. And then. So we pay, you know, whatever the

lowest. It. Lowest thing is, and

then we pay out of pocket for

real health care. I know. Because we're not

sick. So we. So it's actually what you're talking about. It's preventative, it's

lifestyle, it's checking in. And I

think more people, you know, it's like, okay, the

first thing, we have to take responsibility for our own health and we have to

take responsibility for the. For the structure of it. That's right.

Because I was on the Internet the other day, people were posting what they're.

What they pay for health care in America. And I was like,

oh my God, I know. Just the premiums alone

or. Yeah, it's just. And that's a. No. A whole

other beast that has to be addressed in this.

Figuring out how to really support people, take care of people.

Because yeah, if you're. If that's a benefit of your job

and you don't have the money to just pay out of pocket for. Some

people can't afford a chiropractor

whose are generally fairly low.

It does feel like a situation where someone is stuck.

Yes. And it's not. So.

Yeah. And that's what, you know, I really like about

your work, is that you're connecting us back to our bodies,

how to listen to our bodies, how to be in communication so we catch

these things earlier. We don't need to spend

all of our dollars on getting fixed. If we can

stay. Stay whole.

That's right. Stay whole. And that's. And.

And there may be some suffering in that wholeness. Yeah. And I think that

to some extent that's part of being a human.

It's when it's like persistent suffering and we

can't we don't know what to do about it, then we need. We need help.

We need. And, you know, we need help. We need people who can

help us approach it in a way that makes sense and not

pathologize it, not necessarily give it a diagnosis.

I think there are ways in which a diagnosis

has been very helpful. People with mental health

issues. It's helped destigmatize

people. It's helped us understand that it's

not just the gods are mad at us. You know, we're being

persecuted for our. Whatever weaknesses

and what have you. I mean, we've come a long way with mental illness, but

it's really not enough. And it's. It can be

a roadblock. Okay. This person has,

you know, social. Chronic social anxiety.

Okay, that's again, it's a descriptive diagnosis.

By calling it a disease or a disorder, it

relieves the person of having to feel personally

responsible for that or culpable for that. But what

about all the factors that lead to the anxiety?

Why is that person so activated? Why is their nervous system

so activated? Why do they feel unsafe? You know, like what

happened to that person as opposed to what gene got turned on

that, you know, led to all these. You know what I'm saying?

We're still looking at it in a very superficial way.

And in medicating it, instead of trying to address what's at

the root of that. Yes.

Which many times isn't rocket science at all. All you have to do is

teach a person. Oh, let me. Anxiety

is the wisdom of my body. There's something. There's something

to know here. There's something my body needs me to know.

And let's look at it in a way that helps me

understand what my unmet needs are, what needs

my attention. And we're not taught to do that.

We're taught to be afraid of our feelings and our

symptoms. We're taught that it's something

wrong, not that it's something wise.

Like we refer to

nervous system activation, like persistent anxiety and overwhelm,

and that so many of us are experiencing right now

as nervous system dysregulation.

Like it's something wrong. Like it's. The body is wrong,

which I don't see it that way. It's like, no, it's

persistent. It's extremely uncomfortable. But

my brain, my nervous system is all about

safety, is all about trying to keep me safe. So what signals

are my brain. Is my brain receiving

that shifts it into high gear

to keep me safe. Does that make sense? It's just

like looking at things and just kind of shifting the perspective that it's

meaningful rather than something bad, something

wrong, pathologizing it. But we love. We like to do that

in our culture. Everything has a. Everything has

a name,

a disease box. You

know, and really we could be

in dialogue with the symptom.

That's right. Or have someone help you have that dialogue. Because it can

be really hard when you're really uncomfortable. Really. I'm

someone who've, you know, experienced anxiety on and off my whole life.

I know how uncomfortable it is and what

it says. I'm in trouble. I mean, it screams, you

know, it's just really hard to work with sometimes. So

you need somebody who has that whole person

orientation, who is trauma informed, who

can help you navigate what the message of that anxiety

is, which doesn't mean we don't. We also

learn tools to, like, soothe and settle our nervous systems. I think

that's really important. I think there's so many triggers in

our. In our world right now. I think people are

anxious. People are anxious who didn't used to be, you know, it's just really

overwhelming right now. Yeah.

But it's just reconnect. Reconnect to yourself. Reconnect to

your body. Everybody needs to have, like, a presence, practice of some

sort. Even if it's. You go out for a slow walk in the

neighborhood or in the woods, or you, you know, you sit and you

stroke your dog and pet your dog and. Or

sit in meditation, you know, whatever. It doesn't even matter. But a way to,

like, reconnect and create safety

for yourself so you can navigate all

these things that you need to navigate.

Okay. I feel like I just. I'm going to zip up. No, I love it.

I'm just going to let this flow. It's so good.

Oh, gosh. It's such a. It's. You know, Karen,

I really appreciate you articulating and expressing all of

that because I think it helps

us all to feel held and safer to hear

your wisdom. So thank you. Oh, you're welcome.

And how can we find you?

Are you. Are you taking clients and you have a book coming

out. Those were three. It's actually. It's called Unbroken

Reclaim. Your wholeness. And everything we talked about is in there. And

then some. The ebook is out for some.

Somehow the different versions of the book just all got onto their own

schedules in spite of my best efforts. So the

ebook is out. The audiobook should be. I love it all. Who knows

what's happening? And the.

The print version Is available for pre order. Will be out on

January 11th. Audiobook should hit anytime.

And my website is

karenshanksmd.com so everything

hap that I'm doing is. Is there. And I'm in the process of

creating some. And it's in its

infancy right now. I had to have the mind

space to start imagining it. But I want to take the book

and everything that's in there and create a

sanctuary online for people with chronic illness,

chronic suffering, people who are interested

in the themes you and I talked about, who

perhaps want to just create more resilience in their lives.

But I'm calling it the sanctuary because I want it to feel

like a safe place for people to land, to begin it, to

begin their journey in a very compassionate and

curious and open way.

Beautiful. Coming not here yet. Coming

in creation.

On the way. Being birthed at some point. That's right. But

yes, it is, I think, a wonderful idea

to create a healing space. Because, you know, I do

think. I don't know there. These complex

situations, like sometimes I hear about.

I've mentioned this as an example on the podcast before, but I was listening to

some other podcasts that I don't normally listen to, and there was a young woman

on there who mentioned that she had a new diagnosis of

some kind of like, premenstrual. It was a new

kind of premenstrual diagnosis that

where the cluster of symptoms was. Sounded just awful.

Even worse than what we think of as really bad pms. Yeah.

To the point that suicidal ideation was part of your monthly

experience. Sure. And

her, you know, and she was like, you know, so I really want to raise

awareness about this so they do more research on this

condition. Because, you know, right now it's like

I was offered like a hysterectomy. Wow.

And I think like some. Some kind of prescription that didn't. That didn't

help. Yeah. Yeah. So there's so many

people just sitting in these terrible

situations, getting terrible feedback.

Yeah. And she really just thinks she has to sit there and live with that

until there's a new drug. Right,

right. So that's the mistake of naming something,

sticking it into a disease box.

And I don't know what this disorder is. I can only imagine. And

then establishing some kind of

protocol for treating it, and then all the

curiosity ends. Right. Because this is not just

a person who fits this cat, you know, this box, but

this is a person who. And. And there may be. Let's say there

are millions of women who have this sort of constellation of. Of

problems. But for each one, it's going to be a different

scenario. Right. The. The.

The triggers, the. What needs to be unraveled and

understood, the unmet needs, the. The therapies, they're

all. They're going to be different for every single one. And that's just.

That's. It's a tragedy.

Yeah. And I. To me, the biggest part

of that tragedy was the hopelessness that she was left with.

That's right. That there's nothing else to be done. Well, I hope she's listening

today and I hope that she hears that

yet. Yeah. No, your journey's just begun. You got

to experience a way of looking at your situation

now. Everything we said about epigenetics,

neuroplasticity, there's absolutely a way out.

There's absolutely a way back to wholeness.

Yes. So thanks for sharing that.

Yeah. And thank you, Karen. And thank you, everyone, for being here.

There is a way back to wholeness. You can order Karen's book. Book

and visit her website and work with

her. Are you available? I didn't. I'm taking

limited availability, but I do. So if anyone is

interested, my email address is on my

website. Just shoot me an email, tell me in just a few

sentences why, what you need help with, and

we'll. We'll see. Just look at my website. It talk. It

talks through how to work with me, what the process is,

what my philosophy is and what have you

to see if that resonates with you. Love

it. And, Karen, thank you for

the career that you've led and combining all of the different areas that

you've combined. I hear from a lot of people who have

MDs, they're like, oh, God, I don't know why I did that. I'm like, we

needed you, too. Thank you for doing it. We

need it. Thank you. We need some of you on the

inside. I don't feel like

I'm on the inside, but I. Yeah, well, you're really not anymore, but

you started out on the inside, and I think that's good. I think it's. Yes.

Yeah. No, you're on the fringes now. Thank goodness.

Okay. Thanks so much, Garrett. Thank you.