Hello again, and welcome back to Connect and Convert, your

sales accelerator podcast where small business owners pick up

insider tips on how to grow their business faster than ever.

And one of the Fastest growing people in our

podcast is my partner, Leah.

Say good.

Say hello, Leah.

Hey, how are you doing, Dennis?

It's good to see you again.

It's good to see you as always.

Thanks for keep, you keep coming back.

I guess I haven't chased you away.

I love our conversations.

I always learn so much and it just gets me pumped

for the rest of my day.

Thanks.

I enjoy having you.

You always present a great perspective.

So today will be no different today.

I want to talk about something that, that if anyone has

ever been in sales, it's been beat into your head, right?

I mean, with a hammer and a nail empathy is the key.

Let's take a look at that.

Let me tell you a story.

First of all, you know, I've been privileged.

I've been honored to train a lot of salespeople over the

years, and hopefully I've done a pretty good job, but one thing

I noticed is there are different levels of empathy, this morning

today, I want to talk about those who are highly empathic.

Okay.

On the end, the high empathy scale, there's

a lot of those people.

They're really nice people.

They're easy to talk to.

They're easy to know.

And in sales.

They make rapport look like nothing.

Okay.

So rapport is second nature to them.

But let me tell you something that I found.

There's one problem.

A lot of the people that they made contact with and had

sales conversations with Never bought anything, but they have

testimonials, emails, cards.

Oh, I love Joe Blow.

He's the best sales person I've ever had.

I really like him.

And they have all these written testimonials.

They never buy.

Isn't that odd, Leah?

It's interesting, but you know what?

As soon as you say empathetic.

I'm a nerd in my own right, Dennis, and I go with, okay,

in, in books, in movies, in TV shows, the empathetic character,

that person, you know, that's often taken to the extreme and

my mind goes to science fiction.

I think on Star Trek.

They have the empath where they can sense that's helping

the person who is in charge.

It's helping the captain, but the empath is the

one who has all those connections that are made.

They're not closing the deal.

They're not making those decisions, but it's a powerful

place of energy to come from.

And man, as a salesperson, we all want to have that.

I want to have those connections with my customers.

I want them to like me.

I want to be able to know what they're.

What they're feeling, where are we going with this?

And phrase the conversation.

So it's an interesting character trait.

I propose it is, but I propose empathy is a double edge sword.

Let me tell you how I.

Feel about that and see what you think.

So when does empathy work well on a sales conversation?

I think we all agree.

If you have a total non empathetic person, they're

not going to make too many sales because that would say

they're totally concerned only about themselves.

So when does empathy work?

How about the opening of the seal?

The building of rapport, the listening, you can't

do too much listening.

That's those are the marks of a very empathic person, making

the customer feel important, creating custom per person.

Yes.

Empathy serves us well.

They're understanding their feelings, making a connection.

But as I often do in these podcasts, get ready for a.

Nerd alert.

Okay.

Nerd alert.

There is,

there is a scale to measure empathy.

Mark.

Thank you.

Nerd alert.

Master.

In 1980, a guy named Mark Davis came up with the

interpersonal reactivity index.

Ooh, the MRI.

Ooh, that sounds very serious.

IRI.

Oh he thought it was very serious.

I'll tell you that.

Okay.

Very serious researcher.

He says empathy exists on a spectrum.

I guess that's kind of good news.

Too much empathy, hyper empathy, too little

empathy, deficit disorder.

They actually have a name for that.

So how many connections are we going to make with low empathy?

Not too many, but here's the question.

How many sales will you make with hyper empathy?

Huh.

Have you ever thought about that?

If you're too empathetic, what happens?

What happens?

You forget your purpose, right?

You forget why you're there, what it is that you're bringing,

because you're just ultra focused on what's in front

of you, the person you're talking to, your business,

it's From their perspective, you lose sight of what

you're bringing to the table.

Yeah.

You forget why you're there.

And first of all, what I have found is most client,

most prospective customers, prospects, whatever you want

to call them, customers.

They don't need another friend.

They're not looking to make another best friend.

They have plenty of friends.

They have family and the self the hyper Empathic

salespeople are trying to make them a friend.

I, in fact, recently, I got to tell you, I had one

gentleman who I'm coaching.

He said that, yeah, I'm trying to make friends

with that customer.

And I had to stop and say, you know, let's talk about that

because unfortunately when a customer sees that you are

that hyper empathic person.

I hate to say this, Leah, but some customers

take advantage of that.

Did you know that?

Absolutely.

Absolutely.

You can see it.

I can think of somebody that I worked with over the years

highly connected to his clients.

Friends go out for a beer together,

You know, just really working within the business.

The problem is when it came down to having to, cause we

all are, you know, unless we're working for ourselves, we're

working for that, for a company.

When it came down to it, there are things that he couldn't

do as their sales person that they expected because.

They were putting the friendship above the business relationship.

And sometimes the two don't connect and it caused nothing

but problems because then you're losing not just a

friend or a buddy But you're also losing the opportunity

to help their business

totally So the question That comes to my mind.

Can you be assertive?

Can you stay on point on focus without being

pushy salesy or rude?

What do you think

You have to be able to?

Yeah, either that or you can't continue.

In the profession of selling, because you might

be better served and I don't mean to be rude, but you

might be a counselor, you know, somebody who counsels

with people who with high empathy for their problems.

But at some point we in the sales business have

to be assertive and we cannot let empathy fall

into what I call sympathy.

I think there's a big difference.

My definition of empathy is that.

I understand, you know, what you're going through.

I get it.

Sympathy is I believe the same thing you believe.

I believe our price is too high.

I believe our equipment, our product is substandard.

That's sympathy.

And I also think when you go far too far down that road of

being empathetic, I mean, when I'm calling on a new prospect

or someone that I've called on for years, they're expecting me

to try and sell them something.

They know that my ultimate purpose is, hey, I have this.

I think it'll be good for you.

Let's see how, but if too far down that road, how

do you get back from it?

How do you, how do I, how do you get back to, um, all of

a sudden trying to sell when they're just expecting you

to, you know, give them a hug.

Hey, Dennis.

That's a great question.

Hey.

Hey there.

Producer

Paul.

It's a magic mirror.

Hey Paul.

Yeah,

I decided to jump in on this conversation

because here's the thing, and I think you both know, I'm

a highly empathetic person.

So I want to share my point of view because I it

provides some understanding from a sales manager's

point of view, I think.

So they can better understand how an empathetic person works.

And I think a lot of it comes down to, and this is

what I find myself doing.

And.

Working on continuously working on is somebody who's highly

empathetic Kind of goes on beyond the point where they're

more of a people pleaser.

It's not about Getting the job done in terms of

selling it's about liking I want you to like me.

I want you to like me first Therefore I am then given

permission to sell But if I don't feel like you like

me, I'm going to keep trying and going down that road of

being empathetic and trying to understand more and more

so much so that I lose, as you said, Leah, and I love

that you said that this is, they don't realize that

they're losing their purpose.

Why are they there?

Yes.

They become unconsciously more about, I want you to like me.

So as a sales manager.

Recognize if you have somebody who is a highly empathic person,

is it a subconscious desire for them to be liked or are

they really understanding that?

No, they are empathetic and they understand when Dennis,

you say to be more assertive, it's not about assertiveness.

It's about confidence because I like that.

That's exactly right.

Yeah.

If I, as a, an empath who doesn't understand the fact

that I just want to be liked.

My confidence level goes down.

Therefore in sales, it's a transfer of confidence.

I don't have the confidence to sell and therefore I

don't get the job done.

What a great producer, Paul, man, that's in,

in for the bad home run.

No grand slam buddy.

The key word confidence, you know, you framed it in a way

that, that, you know, I think of assertiveness of standing up for

your purpose, for what it is.

That you're there for, but you can't do that if you

don't have the confidence to do that, can you?

You can't be assertive.

You're the fear overcomes you and you don't have the courage

or the competence to do it.

What a great insight into this whole topic.

I, and again, I hope our sales managers, general managers,

any leaders who are listening to this, we'll hear what

we're talking about here.

Okay.

Empathy is.

In and of itself is not a bad thing, but hyper

empathy in a sales situation can be a killer of sales.

I kind of look at it this way.

I think the middle solves the riddle.

Like in so many other cases, use high empathy

when it's appropriate, but learn how to be confident.

Learn to build your confidence when presenting your solutions.

You know, I listened to a lot of recorded sales calls.

I can tell the level of confidence that salesperson has

by the language they're using, the words they use, the way

they phrase their offerings, the way they pause or don't pause.

It comes across.

And it doesn't work.

If you're not confident in your solution, why

should the customer?

I

mean, I'm going to jump in one more time here.

Of course I'll have to just, you know, come out of nowhere.

The you're talking about sales.

You're talking about sales managers and hoping

to understand that they understand and something that.

They may want to consider is with somebody who

is highly empathetic.

They may not be the world's best salesperson, true, but

they may, depending on a bunch of other things, they

may make a wonderful manager.

Interesting because they can understand at least empathize

with the salespeople and what they're going through

and give them the tools to become better salespeople.

Here's the caveat.

That manager, that empathetic manager must also still

have that confidence level and understanding of what

they do and how they do it and why they do it.

And I find that really interesting because

organizations often will look at empathy as

opposed to a strength.

In a managerial role, they look at more of it in men's strength.

They're looking more of a, you know, that confidence to be able

to, you know, push your people out to, to get things done.

But the empathy can be seen as a weakness.

You know,

And in every role, you think training, you think sales

organization, even admin.

You know, that, that empathetic role or aspect of a personality

can be a huge strength.

Absolutely.

But it's often not looked

at like that.

Yeah.

And.

It is amazing what an empathetic, I keep saying

empathetic manager can do for the culture of

the entire organization.

I think you know, in the future, in the past, you've talked about

onboarding and about employees and such an empathetic manager

who understands how they manage and might manage as well.

They can alter that one person can alter the

entire organization.

And keep people from leaving much better than anybody else

because it's a human connection I think you said in the

episode about the bono people first That's an impact.

That's right.

This great to be to the, one of the questions that we had

Dennis, and maybe I'm jumping ahead, but we had a question

from and it came from a couple of different sources and I

had to really think about it.

You don't have that opportunity.

Cause I like throwing these questions at you, but the number

one trait, if you're looking to build your Salesforce, what's

the number one trait you should be looking for in an individual?

Wow, you always, and our, these are our fans are coming

up with some hard questions.

they're hard.

And I thought I had an answer, but I think even just based

on our discussion here and some of Paul's insights I

might have changed mine.

I'm gonna tell you what I was thinking.

I was, you know, thinking the ability to sell your

team or to be working with someone that you're gonna be

able to have that connection.

Connection with because when you're worried, we've all worked

for managers that you didn't feel that connection with.

So it's got a, you know, that one trait.

It depends who's on your team already was initially

what I was thinking.

But sales is kind of a lone wolf kind of thing when you're

out there just with the client.

So if you're looking at just that individual.

I don't know that there is one particular trait, but

it's the combination and it's the layering because I want

someone empathetic, but I also want someone with confidence.

I also want someone with the ability to be taught.

Yeah.

Oh, I'm taking all

the good ones, Dennis.

I'm going to let you go.

You're

Really making this even more difficult for me, Liz.

You can just agree

with me.

I'm used to that.

I have a young lady in this family that I

agree with all the time.

It makes my life easier.

I have an answer.

You may or may not agree or like this answer, but I'm

going to blurt it right out.

I think the most important inborn, I mean, inward trait

that I have, I don't even know if this can be taught.

It might be able to be taught, but it's better

if you have it in you.

Here it is.

Curiosity.

Curiosity.

Where you like to solve the puzzle.

You like to gather the information.

Pieces by pieces.

Deep puzzle together.

Curiosity, finding out what this customer is all about, what they

really need, what's bothering them, what's their pain.

Okay.

Curiosity ask questions.

You know, people who are curious, ask great questions,

ask smart questions.

Does that make sense?

You know what?

I absolutely love that because You're right.

Curiosity is not something you can be taught.

You can explain the merits of curiosity.

But you can sniff out fake curiosity in a second.

Just fake connections.

It's always possible to see that.

You I love that.

Because if someone is sincerely curious about the people

they're going to be talking to, then they're going to

be able to pull information and someone can help you.

A manager, a mentor can help you.

Where does what I have to sell come into helping you

with this issue, this problem.

And to me, Leah, curiosity is not about me.

It's not about my company or me as the salesperson.

It's about you.

Okay.

I want to know more about you.

Tell me about you.

Tell me about what your problem is.

Tell me about what you've tried to do to solve it.

And curiosity to me is, you know, we talk

about asking questions.

We've done.

Episodes.

And we will do more episodes about questions.

It's not about just asking one question and one and

done, or it's not about going through a list of questions.

Like you said, fake curiosity written on a piece of

paper, a list of questions.

Hey, tell me more about what you just said.

That's really interesting.

I never thought of it that way.

Tell me more.

That's curiosity to me.

That's curiosity.

So we have only a minute left, but our breakout

challenge, we always do a challenge I'm thinking.

I'm thinking maybe the challenge for this week is take

a look at your own empathy.

Where are you on the interpersonal reactivity index?

Are you high hyper empathy or empathy deficit disorder?

Or are you the middle?

The middle solves the riddle.

That's what I look for is the middle.

And seems to me that works a lot of times in life, especially.

If you know about the Wizard Academy, wizardacademy.

org.

Fancy you bringing that up.

Yeah;, we always talk about it.

You talk about curiosity.

If you are a curious person, you need to go to wizardacademy.

org right now and look at the lineup of classes coming up

for the rest of this year.

You will love the topics.

And what you'll love even more, Is an experience in Austin at

wizard academy, wizardacademy.

org.

I think that is impossible to oversell.

It is, there is no one I have ever recommended go that

went, that came back and went, yeah, whatever it changes,

how you look at things from a business perspective, from

a personal perspective, it's integrated, just like empathy.

How empathetic you are to your clients is the same

way as you are at home.

It's the same way in the office.

These things are all, we don't operate in a vacuum.

We do not.

Again, thank you, Leah.

Great insights, particular thanks to producer

Paul for coming out of the ether and sharing,

sharing with our audience.

Very helpful and insightful.

That's going to do it for this edition of Connect and Convert.

We'll see you next time.

See

you Dennis.

Mhm.