You look stupid when you run, but that might be the whole point.

There's a version of running that's about performance, time splits, results looking good.

And then there's another version where none of that really matters.

This episode with Mike Kratzer lives in that second world.

What he's pointing at in this conversation isn't really about running at all.

It's about what's left when running strips everything else away and you're no longer trying to be someone, impress anyone, prove anything, or hold on to an idea of who you think you're supposed to be.

Because Ultra Running forces you to stop lying to yourself.

Borderland it's the Borderlands Trail and Ultra Running podcast, presented by Kip Run.

My name is Josh Rosenthal, the host and the founder.

Look for Kip Run's new Kip Summit Series dropping April 1st in the United States.

Okay, I want to take a moment to clarify a few points from a previous conversation on this podcast with Marli Dickinson regarding Camille Herron.

Since that episode aired, additional information has been brought to my attention, and I want to make sure that listeners have that context.

First, Camille Herron has never admitted to making edits on her own Wikipedia page or to the pages of other athletes, and has consistently denied being responsible for those edits.

Second, her husband, Connor, has publicly stated that he was responsible for the edits in question, that he made the edits in good faith, and that Camille was not involved.

And third, regarding Camille's relationship with Lululemon, her representatives have stated that her contract was terminated under a standard no cause provision and not because of any ethical breach or misconduct on her part.

To the extent that anything discussed on this podcast may have suggested otherwise, I regret any misunderstanding.

My goal is to ensure that this additional context is clearly communicated so listeners have an accurate understanding of these points.

And from there, we get into it.

This is Mike Kratzer with us in the Borderlands studio at Paris Fashion Week.

You carry yourself like someone who is at peace.

You know, do you feel that way?

Like, do you.

Do you feel like maybe the word is integrated?

Yeah.

Like you feel like there is no Mike Kratzer on Instagram compared to the Mike Kratzer that's at home, compared to the Mike Kratzer that's at Paris Fashion?

Like, do you feel like one person?

Like, integrated?

Like you just are who you are?

Yeah, I think, yeah, I can.

I'm at peace with what I am, and I don't feel the need to force myself into being somebody else.

I think.

Does running play into that for you 100%.

It's like the.

Yeah.

I've just come from Jason, who does Minor Planet, and he had, like, a way different way of arriving at that piece, but it's, like, pretty similar.

And with him, when we talked, it was like, the same.

You just, like.

You always knew that something wasn't, like, right, but you always, like, covered it with whatever.

And then through running, there was no need to cover anything else because you look stupid when you run.

You don't.

Like the guy who crewed us for the first tsp after two days of running, he was like.

It was the middle of the night.

We were on Power Line Road.

And then he was like, Philip is his name.

Like, yo, Mike.

Like, do you really think running looks good?

I was like, what do you mean?

He was like, it looks so stupid to me.

Like, I've been watching you guys for two days now, and it just looks stupid to me.

I was like, I never looked at it that way.

But I think, yeah, like, running doesn't always look, like, picture perfect.

And I think through that, you.

Yeah, you just accept it.

And through that, you accept, like, flaws in others and just, like, let them be.

Yeah.

Like, the.

Just being comfortable with the warts.

Like, being comfortable with the other stuff.

There's like.

Like, I don't have hair.

That's just a fact.

And they just won't grow.

Like, my kids make fun of me all the time, but definitely when I started losing them, like, mid to end 20s, it was a problem because your whole identity, if you're into rock and roll and Vlah, is like, hair and looking good.

And to me, it didn't look good.

But then Ram Dass, who I listen to a lot, he had one episode about being.

Having products, trying to hide how old you are.

Like, if you get older, you have, like, those spots on the hands and you try to hide them.

And he was like, why do we do that?

You don't look at an old tree and you're like, oh, man, that tree is old.

Like, that tree.

You know, you don't.

Like.

You don't judge a tree.

We actually celebrate it crooked or whatever.

You just like, a tree is a tree.

And I think, like, we are who we are, and there's no need to change like the other or be like, yeah, that guy runs really slow in DNFs all the time.

I'm sorry for that.

It's okay.

Pun intended.

It's okay.

In my mind, I'm convinced that I've figured something out, but I won't Know, until I'm back in the fray, back into my hundreds.

But I hope I'm on the other side.

I want to hear about what you alluded to, the rock and roll past.

Yeah.

Because I know there's some connection with music.

I know there's some connection with party scene, with DJing.

Yeah.

Like, who's Mike Croucher?

Before running and sobriety.

Yeah.

Loose cannon.

Yeah.

I used to DJ for a living for a couple of years, and I've been in Berlin.

No, in Nuremberg.

I was with a band that got signed and they all moved to Berlin.

But I did never find, like, a big city appealing.

So I think I always had it in me that I needed, like, nature.

But living in Nuremberg and having everything accessible all the time just made it really hard to, like, cut it.

And also, the whole friend group back then was just people who either owned bars or clubs or were DJs over in bands.

So it was like there was never, like, a path out, really, because everything we did all the time was that, which was fun for a while.

Yeah.

Until you figure out there's more to life.

Yeah.

Yeah.

What kind of music were you playing?

Usually, like, rock and roll guitar music.

Were you the guitar player?

I did play guitar, yeah.

Okay.

Sing.

I don't think.

Okay, so just rock and roll guitar.

Yeah.

What guitar were you playing?

Epiphone.

Semi acoustic.

Nice.

Yeah, it was good.

But also I wasn't a good guitar player, so it's probably for the better.

Yeah.

What happened to that band?

They go off to Berlin and did.

They keep going or some.

One guy came back, Luca, the rest.

I don't think any of them do any music anymore.

Like, they played for a while, supported some bigger bands, and then disappeared.

I don't think moving to, like, the most competitive city in Germany for music is a good thing when you could also just stay outside of that rivalry there.

And.

Yeah, but, yeah, that was their choice back then.

And I was like, nah, I don't.

Think I was always.

I thought, similar to you, that I would rather be a big fish in a small pond than a small fish in a big pond.

So even though the music I was making wasn't great, I wouldn't have made it in LA or New York or Nashville.

I could do okay in Salt Lake City or in Lubbock, Texas.

You know, like, it worked and I could be happy and it could be my life.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I think that was a really fun time.

But through that, like, they moved, and then I was only DJing because having a band is a Lot of work, as you know.

So.

Yeah.

And that just got redundant after a while.

Like every week it's pretty similar.

Yeah.

Tuesday, there's your local thing here at that bar.

And then Wednesdays you go here.

On the weekends, you're in different cities.

And after a while it was like, same conversations, nothing really new, and it really became a job.

And that's when I was like, oh, my God, Like, I don't want to DJ tonight.

Because it felt like a job.

Yeah.

Then I was like, oh, maybe I should change something here.

Like, this is not cool anymore.

So to someone like me, I never got into that scene.

What.

I mean, what does it mean to DJ, you know?

What type of DJing were you doing?

Just like Club Lights.

Like, I did book a couple of bands, and then after that we would DJ till 4 in the morning.

So you're there really early, you binge drink all night.

Yeah.

And then they're there when everybody leaves.

And then you go either to an after party or eat something and go home.

And what were you known for?

Like, why would you be the DJ that a certain club hired?

What was the.

What did you bring with you?

I think we were young, loud and snotty.

I don't know.

It's just like with.

Same with Running Now.

Like, you just.

If you establish yourself and you know people, whereas on the street, and then you just get to know more people and through that, get more opportunities and then just start it real small.

And then at some point was like, yeah, something that wasn't fun anymore.

Yeah.

And then.

So the it in the documentary that you released on a TSP solo that you did, I thought it was a phenomenal documentary.

You'll have to help me with who worked on it.

I know Tom Reynolds worked on it.

He was the producer and wrote for Mental Athletic.

Okay.

About it.

And then Dan King was.

Yeah, I just thought it was really well done.

I mean, like.

Like in a world right now where we're getting a lot of running documentaries, which is a good world.

I like that world.

Don't get me wrong.

Yours stood out and was memorable to me in some of how the production was done and the way that it moved through your story.

And so you're sitting in what looked like maybe a driveway or something like that at the beginning, and you're just kind of riffing and just.

You're talking about things and you very haphazardly say, I stopped drinking either right before my wedding or my wedding was the last time that I drank.

So I. I'm Curious about that era of your life.

So right now, if we're looking at the.

The spring equinox where this is the moment of the year where light is overpowering darkness.

And so I'm looking for stories about it.

It would seem like quitting drinking and you saying this is at peace and that you feel that, you know, that you're happy with that decision, that this was a moment in your life where you're getting married.

Probably happy about that.

Yeah.

Quit drinking.

Yeah.

And, you know, light.

Light has overcome darkness for you.

I'm curious about that.

Like.

Like the.

The month before the wedding and the.

The wedding and the month after.

Yeah.

Like, it's been a while before the wedding that I just didn't want to drink because it's, like, socially so accepted.

Like here you can see it.

Like, people go out after they finish in their showrooms, get shit faced.

The next morning, they regret it.

Yeah.

In the evening, they do it again.

And I was just, like, sick of that.

Everything around it involved with drinking.

Like, we could have a meaningful conversation.

And five years deep, you just search for another beer.

And I try to get laid.

And then, like, the nice evening and the good intentions are gone because then you're just like, zombie, right?

And I think, yeah, I wanted to do it for a while, but I knew that we would marry soon.

And I knew that the social conventions would get me in trouble if I would have stopped, like, before.

Like, my parents would be asking, all the guests would be like, hey, what's wrong?

And I just didn't want to deal with it.

I was like, all right, so we get married.

We're gonna have my friends play here, we're gonna smoke weed, we're gonna do all of that.

And then the next day, nobody will ask for it anymore.

You know, I will always be like, yeah, like, I'm done.

Because then there's nothing of, like, social value that where I have to drink.

Like, if I go to a wedding, I don't have to drink.

But if you're the main part of the wedding, like, it's kind of accepted of you to, like, do that.

And I wasn't ready to stop before, so that was, like, my focus.

And I told my wife that, and then she was like, yeah, you could stop before.

And I was like, I know I could, but also, like, your parents already give me shit if I don't drink a beer on the weekends when we go to have dinner.

Because it's, like, so enrooted in, like, German culture, the wurzhaus.

And you Know the shuffle on the weekend.

It's like a pork thingy with a beer.

It's just like what you do.

And I just didn't want to do it anymore.

I was just like, why can't we just not have that?

I know that you're half American, so you have a German parent and you have an American parent.

So I don't know how familiar you are with Seinfeld, but I do feel like what you're describing to me feels a little bit like Seinfeld.

You went out on top.

But if, if you have a negative, like, connotation or connection with drinking, I don't know if you would agree with that.

But it sounds like there's never going to be a bigger party in your life.

There's never going to be a bigger celebration.

Like, this was the moment.

I'm going to let this be the crescendo.

Yeah, yeah, exactly.

And to.

To drink again after that will some ways diminish.

Yeah.

What you were.

The whole statement about that is there is.

Am I close?

Yeah.

I 100 agree.

That's like a good way to end it.

And so how long ago was that now?

Ten years.

Ten years?

Yeah.

Do you.

Did it feel like a movement into light?

Did it feel like dark before or did this.

You're just done?

It's not darkness necessarily.

Just during the New York marathon week, I was talking to Terry, who does body language, and he watched the movie and then like we just walked around and talked.

And he really had like drug problems and everything and had to really fight demons to get out of it.

I didn't really have that.

Like, I was socially working.

I didn't like, miss any, like, work related things.

I wasn't like really having problems.

I just didn't want to do it anymore.

There was no, like, I have to stop now or I'll kill myself or I have to stop now or I'll lose my jobs or my kids get taken away.

It was, it wasn't a rock bottom situation.

Absolutely not.

It was just like going into a direction where I was like, I don't enjoy it anymore.

It had nothing to do with like hardship or anything.

So I think that's like a big difference from if you're like really heavily drinking and it causes problems.

I also think then it's like harder to stop it because for me it was really easy.

I just stopped the next day.

And it wasn't like ever that I had like the need to drink again.

Like, for me it was like, not like, oh my God, I Can't be around beer now for the next two months till I detached myself from it.

Because if you count like that, you definitely are still in danger to get back to it when you're like, all right, I haven't drank for 2,000, 336 days.

Like, I don't drink.

That's it.

And I can sit around people that drink.

Like, it's the same with eating meat.

Like, I don't have a problem with all of that.

I just don't want to do it anymore.

So it's a. Yeah.

It's not that dramatic, I would say.

Yeah.

Is there?

So when you stopped playing with that band, they want to go to Berlin, and you were content to let that go than drinking.

Content to let that go.

Yeah.

And then your move into running, to me, it seems like there's some threads that connect all those in that I geek out on personality types.

I really love.

I love to observe people and think about people.

And you are really comfortable in being unique.

And maybe you even go toward being unique, making sure it seems like you're comfortable just going your own way.

Yeah.

Whatever that way is.

Yeah.

And if the way that you're choosing to go is counter to everyone else, does that motivate you more?

Like, knowing that you were going against the grain motivates me.

No, it's just.

Yeah.

Just follow what interests me.

Me.

Yeah.

Like, when I started running, it was definitely not hip to be a trail runner or, like, anything of that.

Like.

Yeah.

But even back then, you found your people within that space.

Although it was not, like, blown up like it is now.

But even back then, everybody would say, like, oh, my God, trail running is gonna.

Right.

Change dramatically.

And now we're 10 years later and everybody's still, like, trying to either gatekeep or, like, take advantage of it.

And that's, like, how it probably will always be.

But, like, the.

The discussions are the same.

Like, 10 years ago, but we have nicer clothes now.

We have better technology.

The whole discussion about utmb, if you don't like it, don't go there.

Like.

Right.

Like, there's just so much that I don't like about, like, people forcing your will on them.

So that's why I just do what I think I like.

Yeah.

And if it resonates with people, which usually is the case, that's cool.

But if not, that's also fine.

Like, I don't think it's important to me that.

Or that my whole personality is dependent on if somebody likes what I do or not.

And that's where like, some sort of uniqueness comes in.

Because I had a conversation yesterday about, like, like real run influencers and they all lose.

Use the same formula.

Like, if you scroll to Instagram it, like, oh, do the same stuff with the same music.

No, it's.

It's like it is right now.

Yeah.

And like, you can either, like, buy into it or you just do what you want to do.

And then people might not jump on it the first time, but if you continue to do what you want to do, like the same with the podcast.

It starts with 12 people listening and then 500 listening and then 200 leaving again if you say something they don't like.

But it's like a constant for them back.

But through being, like, consistent through it, you'll find your people in your audience.

And I think that consistency is what I learned, like, through running.

And if I believe in it, probably there's other people believing in it.

Like the pop up we did in New York and now here.

Like, on paper, it's absolutely stupid to have so many brands in there.

And then it's like, I don't even have a brand.

I'm just there.

Yeah.

But I also don't feel the need to just have a brand.

To have a brand and do T shirts that, like, there's no need for me to do it.

Yeah.

So I don't know what I'm doing with physical eradication services, but it's going somewhere, right?

Did you trade.

I mean, so you said stopped drinking 10 years ago, and then you also just said running 10 years ago.

Did those happen the same time?

Kind of overlapping.

I used to cycle when I was younger.

Okay.

But yeah, like, I think 12 years ago, just out of necessity because of kids and stuff, I couldn't cycle as long as I wanted.

And then like, running took over because it's more convenient.

You can do it here, here, now.

And yeah, I sucked.

Like, my first 10k race I did with my dad, my stepdad.

And yeah, like 10k in like 59 minutes.

And I thought, I'm fit through cycling, but in running, I was not fit.

And that bugged me.

And then that all started, like, and pretty early.

It was like, I hate running around, like, the same track.

And then I found through Anton Krupica trail running.

And then that was like the whole, like, I saw some commercial and I was like, yo, that guy, like, he listens to nice music.

He looks pretty cool.

Like, that's what I'm gonna do now.

I love.

I wasn't even thinking we'd go down that path.

I mean, Anton Kaprichka.

Yeah.

So he was your gateway drug.

100%.

Really?

Yeah.

Oh, my gosh.

Do you remember what the ad was or do you remember the thing?

Oh, it was.

He was still with New Balance and like the whole shaving the shoe.

He was shaving the shoe in like his laboratory or something like that, cutting off the heel.

I still have the Vimeo video.

Really?

That Wolperdinger did.

Wolperdinger, yes.

Yeah.

Wow.

Yeah.

That's a long time ago.

Yeah.

I still have the shoes at home.

Oh, you had.

You mean the ones that they put the anti confich in the balances?

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

That's so cool.

Yeah.

You've got an Anton Kaprichka ness to you.

And what makes him unique as an influencer is that he's somewhat.

I mean, he's an anti influencer.

He'd probably hate to even say influencer.

Maybe not hate, because he seems like this guy who's at peace with himself.

Like you.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

So it's not so much that he would hate it, but he's just.

He's an anti influencer.

He's out front.

He's sort of like taste making but not trying to taste, which is probably the best type of taste making is the truest form of tastemaking.

He's just trying to Unapologetically who he is.

Yeah.

But even unapologetically doesn't do it service because he's not offensive.

He's not trying to be just.

He's the nicest guy.

He's such a badass runner and he gets burned out and he starts gravel biking across the country.

He just does what he wants to do and he.

And he looks great while doing it.

And brands use him as a canvas.

Like, he's like a canvas and brands can kind of paint themselves on.

I met him after we talked in Chamonix.

That was like a full circuit moment.

Like, while I was walking back to our Airbnb, he was walking down the street and I was like, right.

Right after we.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

On the way back.

I've never met him.

Yeah, that was the.

He was the chillest guy.

It was like we talked like we already knew each other.

Then he was like, yeah, if you're ever in Colorado, let me know.

I was like, all right.

Yeah.

And then you book a.

You book a plane to Colorado immediately.

Yeah.

I was like, okay, we're friends now.

Oh, man.

He's the.

Yeah, he's the best I just.

Yeah.

So so much about him was.

He was, he was in the.

He was in the zeitgeist.

He was among everybody, but he was not the same.

Yeah.

Because he, like, like I always say, like, I'm really competitive, but like not with anybody else.

Like, I don't.

Like in Valencia, I didn't run the time I wanted, but it didn't matter.

Like, I put in the training, I probably could have run that fast.

But also I don't.

And I think he was the same.

Like he wanted to be the best, but he wasn't like reliant on podium him all the time or like having all that for him, like time outside, I think was like the important stuff.

And like scrambling like.

Yes.

And like, I think it's.

Yeah.

Something that.

It's more important to me that I can do the training than doing the run.

Like last year before Snowdonia, I had the muscle tear on the day of the race.

Oh, that's right.

And that sucked.

But the training leading up was so good that I couldn't be mad at it.

I was like, all right, like next year I get to train again for this.

So it's not like I still got a couple of years of running in me.

So it wasn't that.

It really bothered me.

And I think through his injuries that he had and like his Achilles is somewhere weird and he doesn't want to have an operation and that's why he had to find other outlets to be in the outdoors.

And I think, yeah, some people should not be that like one dimensional when it comes to those sports.

Like, I think a lot of pros are really like one dimensional and that makes them really good.

But I think they miss out on a lot of other things through that.

And that's why I'm really happy that I'm not a pro, because I can venture wherever I want.

I mean, and he's of the era and you resemble that era where no matter how many podiums you're on, the money's not there.

But other brands, brands found ways to write them checks.

Because he was just so interesting.

Yeah, because he was telling stories.

I don't know what podcast it was, but they were talking about like all the old Solomon videos from back then, Solomon tv.

So good storytelling.

It wasn't just pros, it was just everyday runners that had a great story.

And I don't know why they stopped that.

To me, now they're just like a Formula one team with replaceable names that don't resonate at all.

And back Then it was like they were really like stories attached to the people that made them like feasible.

Although their running was like way absolutely not relatable.

But through their stories they became relatable.

They became relatable and now it's like, all right, like, Tom Evans trains like a maniac, blah, blah, blah, like, he's the fittest, he's the best, blah, blah.

I don't care.

Right.

What I'm interested in is like other stuff.

Are you seeing, what are you seeing out there right now?

Because my biggest issue right now is.

And this is not.

I'm not saying this is anyone else's problem, this is my problem.

I want to be inspired and I'm not.

And I'm trying to find it so often.

This isn't a big deal.

I'll just, I'm just, I don't, I don't look into anything that's happening and running to get inspiration.

But I'll.

I'm obsessed with Ernest Hemingway right now.

Yeah.

That's actually informing my running a little bit right now.

Especially because I live in the neighborhood where he used to live.

And so I'm like trying to tour like all the places that I'm reading in, you know, in the book.

What's inspiring you right now?

Just small, local, like I'm inspired by my kids and them exploring the world.

And other than that, I still go back to the old videos.

Yeah.

And like old music.

There's not much new stuff.

Like most of the stuff that's coming out now is like, same, same.

I don't know the last time that I watched a documentary or anything where I was like, all right, like, let's go.

This was sick.

I gotta go run right now.

Like, I watch it and I'm like, alright.

But then also there's like so much now.

Like, then you had to video on demand.

Yeah.

And you had to wait till it's done.

You got a trailer about Jen Shelton and then like four months later you can watch it.

And then you would watch it religiously.

I think there's not a lot of long form content that I'm really inspired by.

I'm inspired by my friends and them doing stuff.

Yeah.

But there's no.

I wonder if that's us.

And that's not the content's fault.

It's our fault.

And it's not because I feel the same way literally with Unbreakable, with Anton.

Yeah, all that.

That used to every.

So every year I'd go with my friends to run this race in Moab.

Every February yeah.

The night before we would watch that every time and it just made me want to go run the race.

Yeah.

And at this point, I don't know what I would watch the night before my next big ultra.

The one thing is the ten Year Satisfy video.

That's like basically a skate clip.

Three and a half minutes.

Joyce Manor.

Nice song.

I just leave that on repeat.

The song is great.

If you look there, you get nice visuals and then I go out run.

I mean, is there a moment.

So here.

But now this is what I go back to.

So maybe I'm not inspired to go run, but running still satisfies me, like the act of running.

So I think I want this content world.

I want all this great stuff to come and bring me like inspiration.

But in the end, when I'm out running, I'm so happy.

I'm just still as happy.

I mean, it's, you know, get all the.

There can be no such thing as running content.

Yeah.

When I'm running, I'm so happy.

Yeah.

That same.

Yeah.

And I want, then I want to transfer that and make content because I'm so happy.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

That's what I've told you before, like trying to do more like long form stuff about what I do.

But that's a lot of work if you're a one man army.

So.

Yeah, we'll see if that turns out to be good.

How.

How did.

So then if we were looking at the, the evolution of my Kratzer.

Yeah.

Where so at some point you quit music, you, you quit drinking, you're.

You're married, you're happy, you turn on Instagram and you start just.

I was so late to Instagram.

Yeah.

I mean, what's the story of that?

I founded a run club with a friend or with a friend.

Couple of friends.

Because we wanted.

I think it was for Berlin Marathon.

And then it was the beginning of like all that like run club stuff.

And then it was like pretty early in TSP's history and it was like, all right, like we're gonna found this run club.

And our main objective was to do comrades together.

And tsp, did you ever do comrades?

Not yet, but that was like the two goals.

And through being active with the run club, I met all the other run clubs, like I told you.

Andre from New York, Jesse Tsopo, blah, blah, blah, like the guys from rundom in London.

And through linking with all of them, you had like a network where you would go somewhere, Copenhagen half, and you would meet them.

And that was like the fun Part.

And then Instagram came to stay connected to all those people, because I live, like, outside of Nuremberg, and I don't really have a crew to run with anymore.

And through that, I started, like, documenting my running thing, where everybody in the beginning was like, yo, Mike, you're so cringe.

What are you doing?

No, but through skateboarding, like, we would go out and skate our shitty tricks, film our shitty tricks all the time.

And with running, I felt the same need to share what I'm doing.

And, yeah, maybe that resonated with people.

And through that, like, a lot of coincidences, it kept going to where it is now.

That's a good connection, because I. I hear people talk about the connection between skateboarding and running a lot.

Yeah.

And I think people talk about it more than it actually is there.

But that's so true.

You know, we'd have a camcorder and we'd film ourselves skateboarding.

Yeah.

It was so depressing.

Yeah.

To see what we actually look like.

Because I thought.

I thought I was ollieing so high, and then I see it, I'm like, oh, my God, it's depressing.

Feel the same way about my running.

Like, it's like, you know, I look like Kipchoge, or I feel like I'm working on.

I'm bringing my knees up higher or whatever.

Yeah, yeah, you see it.

It's like, oh, no, still not Tony Hawk.

No, no, but I think, like, that was, like, the main.

Main driver why I wanted to, like, record my running or, like, do stuff with it.

And then with not having bands anymore, I didn't know what to write about, so I started writing about running.

And, like, it just, like.

That's why I still compare running and skateboarding, because the creative drive behind it is the same.

It's not like, to be the best at something, but, like, art.

To show my art, so to say.

Yeah, that completely makes sense to me.

This will air long after Paris Fashion Week is over, but I hope you have a good week here.

Yeah.

Thank you for having me, man.

Thanks for taking.

As always.

Thank you.