00:00:00 Sana: Here is a diagnostic skill that most of us. We apply rigorously to everything except the one thing that matters most our own lives. I mean, we would never accept a doctor telling us that, you know, you have a heart problem without evidence, right? Listeners. Yeah. We would need a report or maybe, um, a blood report or maybe a diagnosis with a proper evidence. And yet, here's the irony, listeners. We accept our own internal verdicts about our careers, about our worth, our choices, without ever checking if they are fact or they are just kind of a narrative that we have been carrying for so many years. Oh, and today we learn how to tell the difference.

00:01:03 Sana: But before I introduce my guest to all of you, welcome back, dear listeners, I am Sana, And listen, as I'm sitting with someone who has an unusually rare combination of credentials. Hear me out. Carefully trained as an allergist immunologist, then a medical educator, then an ed tech founder, and now a coach, she still practices and teaches today. Which means her path has been additive rather than a series of departures. So let's get into the super interesting conversation, listeners, and let's welcome our guest, Lauren Fine. Lauren, welcome to the show. And it's such an honor having you here.

00:01:48 Lauren Fine: Thank you. And I, I can't thank you enough for having me. This is going to be a very fun conversation, I think.

00:01:54 Sana: I know, I know because the the topic itself is interesting. And secondly, I mean, it's definitely a very, very rare combination of credentials. Lauren. Um, I mean, different industries. Um, one thing which kind of, I find it very common is all of these, they are very, um, they're high pressure. They're very, very, um, front facing, uh, industries. Um, and I think, um, I, I can find so many patterns here, but we'll get to that. But before we get into the framework and the main discussion, um, if you can share with our listeners, you know, like how you got from the first from where you are now.

00:02:36 Lauren Fine: Canada is such a good question. And I don't think that I would have believed that I would have done all of these things. If you had told my younger self this, because it just doesn't all make sense until you put it together. So I decided at a very young age that I loved science and I wanted to go into medicine. There were many different factors that influenced that decision, and everything I did was about going into medicine. And, um, I did my medical school and my residency, my fellowship. And then I was in practice and I found that I had kind of, so to speak, reached the top of my mountain. And I didn't, uh, I never thought about what would happen if I worked so hard to get someplace. It got there. And then every day was about maintaining it rather than growing. And I found that I really loved education. I had opportunities in my clinical job to get into education with the medical students, and I fell in love with that as much as I'd fallen in love with medicine and I couldn't couldn't live without it. So I took on a job helping to build a new medical school and, um, you know, challenged myself again. I had, I was climbing a whole nother mountain there and I'm still maintaining my clinical practice a little bit. So like you said, I didn't, you know, give things up. It wasn't a series of changes. It was building. Um, and then I found that, you know, there were certain parts of education that I wanted to improve myself that were not necessarily part of my job. And that's how I got into the edtech role, uh, working on medical education platforms. And, uh, found that I coached throughout all of this, whether it be my, my patients, my colleagues, my students, and I wanted to have formal training in it so that I could grow in that respect as well. So just one thing just led to another. It was a very natural progression.

00:04:49 Sana: Because I think this, um, I'll call it as a strength. I think it's kind of that unique differentiator because I also believe, um, that's kind of an archetype that, you know, um, maybe you are a good problem solver or you are, um, you know, you love mentoring, you love guiding people or you love, uh, you know, empowering knowledge. Um, you would love to teach or you love to learn, you love to face challenges. I mean, different archetypes. Yeah. So that's one of the pattern that actually, I, uh, got a sense when I was reading through the intro, um, and I was trying to understand because, um, this is a very, very important distinction. Um, most reinvention transition stories. They are told that, you know, as leaving something behind. In fact, you know, when I, uh, sometimes share my reason behind leaving, you know, the quote unquote corporate life and then coming to something which is completely opposite of what my younger self would have ever expected. Um, the biggest reason was to leave that behind and explore something new. Um, completely different. But then, um, I think that's how, you know, the career change narratives, they are structured around loss. Um, I see articles or I see, um, videos or content and most of the, the career changes are around that, you know, you maybe a person didn't, uh, find the job role aligned with what they wanted. Or maybe there was some reason, for example, it could be Covid, it could be layoff, it could be, um, Um, disruption created or caused by technology or it may be, you know, just companies just decided to stop functioning some day, unfortunately. So, um, that's, that's how most of the career loss, um, career change narratives are built. But then what you are describing here, it is something more interesting that each stage it did not replace the last one, but it built on. And I think, um, just to begin with, this is going to reframe the whole conversation around reinvention because it suggests that you do not have to choose between honoring your past and then moving forward.

00:07:28 Speaker 4: So now you are right on.

00:07:31 Lauren Fine: Uh, and I challenge you and anybody listening who has made a change in their career or their path to think about the fact that when you change from one thing to another, you're actually not truly losing what you had in the past. There are things that you experience, things that you learn, things that become a part of you, for better or worse, that help you to build and be better at what you're doing now. So if my eighteen year old self, who was going to college decided that she wanted to go into edtech, I would not have been able to do what I did and build what I built. And if I decided I wanted to be a life coach earlier in my career, I would not be the same kind of life coach as I am now. So everything that we do helps us in some way to be a different version of our future self. And you know, the order that we do things in can really have an impact in the outcome of new things that we try and that we take on as a skill or a hobby or a career. So I challenge anybody who feels like they wasted their time to change that perspective and think of it as something that actually did help to be better at what they are doing now, even if it was a negative experience. I'm sure that there's something that is there that could have helped them or did help them. They just may not realize what it is yet.

00:09:04 Sana: No, I completely agree with you, completely agree with you. And I think, you know, it's definitely about the emotions. But then, um, I mean, in hindsight, if we look back, um, I think, you know, this just doesn't have only fits into the context of career, but in our lives, you know, holistically as well. Um, and it doesn't mean that, you know, I mean, I have to actually put so many caveats here that it doesn't mean that, you know, we are trying to romanticize the negative experiences, but we are trying to just, um, stress on the importance of, you know, what that negative experience taught you. Um, maybe it gave you. Uh, so for example, for example, um, you know, I worked in a startup, you know, uh, with a very small team of just six people. Uh, it was, you know, an ed tech startup actually, um, into B2B, you know, all the, um, technologies and programming languages training. Um, and I was doing corporate, uh, sales and business development in there. And I had a very interesting tenure during those seven, eight months of experience that I've had in that company. Um, especially regarding how and what you should communicate with, um, a new team member who is recently joining the company, even if you know that, you know, uh, deep down the team or maybe the company which you are working. Maybe it's not following the right approach in there. There are loopholes in there. But my mistake was that, you know, I rambled. I mean, I, I ranted just in front of that new team member. And, you know, I, I actually got the entire, you know, blame of that. Okay. You are just bad mouthing about the company. So you do not deserve to be, um, a part of this, this company, this team. And it was just three years into my career, I was not aware about it. And it's been one of the biggest lesson, uh, in how you can, you should communicate with your team, your managers, you know, there's a difference, definitely a difference between how you conduct yourself outside the company and when you are in your workplace or in a team, how you should conduct yourself. So that was one of the biggest lessons, unfortunately, out of a very negative sour experience. Um.

00:11:41 Speaker 4: Yeah.

00:11:41 Lauren Fine: And it sounds like what you're describing is that you, you may have been sharing facts, things that were true, but the way that they were perceived, maybe because of the emotion that you delivered those facts with may have been perceived by others as a story. It. And that can happen all the time. It happens to us when we look at our own situation, you know, or what somebody else tells us or how somebody else treats us. And many times we will look at it as a, you know, we will put adjectives or adverbs into those people or their behaviors rather than just stating, here are the facts. This is what happened. This is what they said. And take away the emotions completely. And when you look at them in that distilled manner, it's much easier to see what really happened and to respond to it with a more clear mind, rather than the emotions that we tend to get when we are first responding to something that does, you know, upset us or make us angry or frustrated. Um, so I, you know, I think that, you know, likely that is something that happened in that situation is, you know, you were, you're probably passionate about what you were saying. And it came off a different way because other people were perceiving the facts with the emotion that was coming with it. Yeah.

00:13:13 Speaker 5: Yeah, yeah, it did.

00:13:15 Sana: And that brings me to the next question here, Lauren, because this is the framework and this is the core topic of this conversation. Um, and it is genuinely practical fact versus story. Um, if you can walk us through this, what exactly do you mean by it? What is the context like? Why is this important, especially in, in our career?

00:13:39 Speaker 4: Yeah. You know, I.

00:13:41 Lauren Fine: Think one of the, uh, the, the biggest places that we can use this in our career, there are actually two that I can think of right off the top of my head. One is, um, when we think that we want to make a career move, whether it's changing our career or applying for a job, um, going back to school, many times we tell ourselves a story that we're not going to get that job or we're not going to be able to get into that particular program or that school. And when we tell ourselves that we are telling a story, we actually don't know that until it happens, until we try. And so what we really need to do is sit down and say, okay, why am I telling myself that? What supports that fact? Okay, maybe it's true. Maybe the chances are very slim that I would get get this job or get in to to this. But that doesn't necessarily mean that I won't. And so I think we have to sometimes make decisions based on, you know, what is true and not necessarily what we think is going to happen, which is a story. Um, or what did happen? Like I applied for a job and I didn't get it because the manager didn't like me.

00:15:02 Speaker 5: Mhm.

00:15:03 Lauren Fine: Yeah. How do you know that the manager didn't like you? Oh, he. He looked at me funny. Okay. He had a particular look on his face. Do we know that? That is a look that he gives everybody? No. Because you just met him and you just interviewed with him. And so we have no idea. Um, you know, he said, you know something to me as I was leaving, um, that, you know, made me feel like I wasn't going to get the job and then I didn't get it, you know? Thank you for taking the time to interview with us. That sounds like they're saying goodbye. You know, that doesn't mean that you didn't get the job. Nobody said that. So I think a lot of times we misinterpret things partly to protect ourselves, right? We don't want to feel the pain that something like that, a rejection or a loss causes us. So we tell ourselves the story that prevent us from feeling that rejection or that pain or that loss again. So maybe we don't apply for another similar job because we think we're not going to get that one since we didn't get the other one, or we're not going to get into a program. So we don't try and apply for it or a job. So we don't try to apply for it. So we protect ourselves. So stories are really a protection from the pain that we might feel.

00:16:29 Sana: And I think, uh, there's a biological factor to this. Um, and I get a sense from how you explained it. And secondly, um, I also think that yes, sometimes we really, really, um, either ruminate or overthink a lot, um, either rationally or maybe emotionally that, you know, why this happened or, um, why, uh, you know, this interviewer or the HR is taking so much time to, um, get back to me. Okay. If the HR has written that, I'll get back to you, you know, universally that means I haven't gotten the job. Or maybe if the HR is not picking my call or responding to my text, um, one hundred percent, you know, and oh.

00:17:23 Lauren Fine: My goodness, yes, it happens all the time. It happens. Right? You, you send somebody a message and you might be the kind of person that replies back to people right away. And that if you are, That makes it even harder when people don't. Some people can't reply back to things when they have five things going on because they want to write back in a way that doesn't seem rushed. So there are a lot of different reasons people will not write back to you right away. Uh, and it's not necessarily because they don't want to reply or they're going to say something negative to you, or they're going to completely ignore you and forget about you and cut you off. Just because you're not hearing back does not mean any of those things. The only thing we know is that we wrote somebody a message and they haven't written back yet. We have no idea what is playing into that delay. So yeah.

00:18:22 Speaker 5: I think that's.

00:18:23 Sana: one of the biggest reasons that and especially, you know, especially when you have tried, uh, interviewing for so many jobs and you're not getting the expected, uh, success rate in there. And then, I mean, I, I know, I know, uh, because it can be a lot. And, you know, especially in today's age, um, it sometimes can be very, very mentally and emotionally taxing as well that, uh, you know, I'm, I'm opening myself to so many options and yet nothing is working. So what are the odds that, you know, this one is also going to work? So let's just, you know, chuck it, just give it up. And I do not want to, I just, you know, let's sleep on it and let's see. Let's give it away to the universe or, you know, something like that. Uh, and I think it needs a great, great deal of courage and resilience to keep going on.

00:19:25 Lauren Fine: I agree with that. And I think that, you know, with regards to repeated rejection and repeated negative experiences, a lot of times I think what we do is we wear that feeling and that emotion on the outside of us. As much as we try to not do that and to go in with a positive attitude. If we go in with any bit of a negative attitude, like, I'm not going to get this, but I'm just going to do it anyway. I think people can see that. They don't necessarily know your whole story. They don't know exactly what's happened. And you've gone through a lot of rejection, but you don't go into it exuding from the outside, not, you know, not just what you're feeling inside or what you're trying to feel inside, but outside. They can see that you don't believe in yourself. So sometimes we have to tell ourselves a story that is different from what the facts are telling us, or what we think the facts are telling us, and we need to figure out what is the cost of me believing this story? The cost might be that other people are going to not believe in me if I don't believe in myself, and I then won't get the job because they're going to see me as I feel I am. And if we can rewrite things and create a different story, that those facts might be able to support a totally different outcome, we start to believe it, and it shows on the outside and that other people start to believe it as well. So if we can find a way to, you know, identify what the cost is and rewrite our story using those same facts, what is the other possibility? What else could happen with these facts? I might actually still get this job. I got the interview right. That's the fact. I got the interview. There's a reason that they've invited me. So just because I have not gotten the last twenty does not mean anything about this one. They don't know the other twenty interviews. They don't know what I said or what the outcome was or my attitude going in. So if I can rewrite my attitude and how I feel about myself and the story I'm telling myself as I go into this, I may change the outcome.

00:21:41 Sana: I think this is something where I think it's a it's a real test. It's the litmus test in there, honestly. Um, and that's how, that's how, you know, if we look at this as, you know, a kind of steps you just explained about fat story cost and then rewrite. And interestingly, also mention a simple camera test that listeners can try in real time. I actually personally want to understand, you know, if we can walk us through this, like, what is it? And how can, you know, let's say if I'm there, I can use it.

00:22:23 Lauren Fine: Absolutely. So the camera test is basically, if I were recording what happened in a particular situation. Uh, whether it was an interaction with someone where you felt like they got upset with you or they walked away with a sour attitude, or they didn't seem to be interested in talking to you. You know, we sometimes misinterpret what's happening. And if we were to take a camera and record the interaction, you probably would not be able to find facts that really said that story was true. Those facts might support the story, right? Like I said, you can create a story based on certain facts. I can tell you that there are three characters and, you know, a setting and a plot, right? And you can create a story with that. But my story will be different because other pieces that I put into it and that I observe and that I imagine even or that I feel emotionally are going to be different. So we are people, we're with other people. We're in a setting and there's a plot. But that doesn't mean that the story that I see is the same story that you see, or someone else who's in the room, right? The camera sees the same story. How we interpret it is really up to our own perceptions and emotions, and it can completely change the way that we look at something or react to something. And sometimes it takes us taking that step back and just saying, okay, what can I actually describe and prove and reproduce? If I told you that somebody crossed their arms while I was talking to them, okay, that might support that. They're upset, but maybe it was cold in the room. Maybe it was chilly and they just wanted to cross their arms, you know? Were they scowling? Were they smiling? Did they take a step back, you know. Did they lean in and listen? What was their body language otherwise? Because just crossing your arms does not mean you're upset. It could mean that you're cold again. So we we misinterpret things because we sometimes see certain things and don't see the other things because we we react so quickly that our emotions take over and create a tunnel vision that only allow us to see certain pieces. So when you have a camera, you can go back and look at it over and over and over and pick out the other pieces and be a detective and see what else there is that you might have missed in that moment.

00:25:12 Sana: MM. So that was interesting. It's like, you know, an unbiased, uh, non-judgmental pair of eyes just showing you what is actually there, you know, something like that.

00:25:28 Lauren Fine: Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. And you can interpret it however you want, right? Just like a piece of art, right? If you have a portrait or scenery and you have five different people interpreting that piece of art, they're going to interpret it differently and that's okay. But I can still tell you that there's, you know, green hills and a mountain in the background and birds. I mean, I can tell you what's there. What it means is all that's in my interpretation, but that's the story.

00:26:05 Speaker 6: Mhm. It is the subjectivity. Yeah. Mhm.

00:26:09 Sana: No, I think it's a very, uh, clean and usable tool. I mean, camera is, of course, I think, you know, there is no, um. I mean, I've been always scared of camera, but I think, uh, you know, this is something which is clean and usable because, um, and I think sometimes, you know, most of the personal development, uh, discussions, conversations, they, they kind of try to, uh, get hung up more on these very minute details and, you know, uh, check this or try to read the room. I think sometimes we really try to, you know, over complicate everything. Uh, or maybe we are scared so much scared that, um, we try to just try to understand what could be the reason, even if it's actually genuinely it is not that reason. Maybe, you know, it's just it was not supposed to be an, um, let's look for the next option. And I understand, I understand, you know, how, how, um, someone can feel, especially in that position and state of mind, and especially when you have a lot of things riding on your shoulders. Um, and I think, uh, here, especially with this particular tool and practice what you're describing, it takes minutes, minutes. But then it also asks one honest question that what would a camera have actually recorded stripped of the interpretation. And I think it's an it's an entire diagnostic in one move. And it's also available to anyone the moment, you know, we are done with that.

00:27:57 Lauren Fine: Absolutely. I think the one thing that we miss is that there really isn't a camera that we have to just do our best to identify, you know, what actually happened, um, not necessarily how you felt about it or what somebody meant by what they were doing, but really, what were the actual actions, um, that you can describe and have somebody else imagine almost the same exact way. And then the interpretation is up to really up to you. Um, so yeah.

00:28:33 Speaker 6: That's right.

00:28:34 Sana: And before we conclude, um, Lauren, you work particularly with, uh, high achieving women navigating burnout and career transitions. Um, and for, for me at least, you know, this is going to be one of my favorite questions out of the list. Um, what, what do you think is, is the most common inherited rule that you see driving that specific group? Like, you know, the one that, uh, masks itself as ambition, but it is something else entirely.

00:29:11 Lauren Fine: Yeah. So I think when women are labeled as ambitious, they are often also marked as neglecting other things in their life. Because to be so ambitious and to try so hard and to push forward in a career, we do often have to sacrifice certain things.

00:29:34 Speaker 6: Mhm.

00:29:34 Lauren Fine: Um, but that does not necessarily mean that we do. I think that there's an assumption that we have sacrificed relationships with our families or our children. Uh, and, and there might be people who have had to, and, um, that, so this is not a universal truth, but I think that there's sometimes an assumption that because somebody is high achieving and works very hard and has climbed the ladder and changed, you know, positions and careers over time, that they must have given something up and maybe not have had the chance to dedicate as much to their family as someone else might have. But, uh, everybody has different abilities and capabilities of balancing and juggling different things in their life. So, you know, we can't necessarily make an assumption. Again, that's a story that we tell ourselves as an inherited rule that we tend to have. And I encourage any woman who is ambitious to prove other people wrong. Make sure that, you know, they show that they're able to do everything that they want to do. And, um, yeah, don't listen to, don't listen to people who are going to tell you that you have to give things up to, to achieve things. That's not necessarily true.

00:30:55 Sana: Yeah, necessarily it's not. And I think these preconceived notions, these are stereotypes. And I also believe that, uh, there's a cultural factor in there as well. Um, because, uh, sometimes, you know, these stereotypes can be so baseless or irrelevant. Um, I, you know, I mean, I have so many examples, you know, especially, um, you know, when you move out of a small town. Um, uh, you know, people kind of recognize you that, you know, academically brilliant. And now she's moving out from her home and going away to a big city. Got a great job. Um. Oh, she'll be like, you know, this, uh, super smart, maybe a bit rude or very confident or very, um, you know, uh, very, uh, straightforward. She'll be very rich. And sometimes even these stereotypes can be very, very, I have to use that word stupid. Um, and especially in the context of women, these are more and more they get more and more deeper and, uh, sometimes very, um, unfortunately, very, uh, very gender specific. Um, and I also think that, uh, there are so many women out there who are, who are, uh, uh, busting these misconceptions and, uh, getting out of getting themselves out of the preconceived notions and stereotypes. But I also believe that, uh, at the same time, not just for the sake of showing someone else that I can do it, but you can be a CEO, you can be a mother, you can be a wife. And it's not about the perfection that you know, you are perfectly you are a great mother, a great wife, you know, a great CEO. But I think it's more about the intention. And, um, of course, you know, uh, I mean, even if, you know, she's a woman, she's a human, so she cannot be one hundred percent, you know, perfect in everything that she's doing. But it's kind of, you know, very stereotypically assumed that even if you are professionally very, uh, brilliant or you are successful, you also have to make sure that, you know, the other end is also brilliantly managed, which sometimes it's not possible, but still it's somehow stereotypically conceived that you're you have to be perfect.

00:33:33 Lauren Fine: Yeah. I think that sometimes women write that rule on themselves. I don't it's not always written, uh, by other people. I think sometimes we create that, um, perception or that ideal, uh, for ourselves. And, and it's, I think it's important to realize that some people are, um, you know, their focus is on being a mother and that, and they're not perfect at that. And other people are a mother, uh, you know, an owner of a business, maybe also going to school. So they're, you know, studying on top of everything else and they're able to do an excellent job at all of those. So everybody has their own capabilities and we do the best that we can. I think that if we focus on doing the best that we can and recognizing, you know, where we need to focus our attention and who needs our attention. Uh, and also for ourselves to take care of ourselves. Um, I don't think it matters how perfect or imperfect we are. Um, I think that that trying to be perfect will just keep us from being able to achieve things that we might have been able to, because we put too much energy into that strive for perfection or the image of perfection. So, um, you know, don't get hung up on that and spend your energy trying to build something new.

00:35:05 Sana: I mean, it's, it's going to, um, uh, land hardest for a lot of listeners, you know, because, um, this is one of the biggest topic that, um, I've had lately a lot of discussion, especially on perfectionism. Um, and how it's not only just emotionally, mentally, but biologically also the kind of responses our nervous system, it tries to give it somehow. And, you know, it has learned itself to mask via perfectionism or via those self-limiting beliefs. Um, and I think there's a lot to it, a lot to it, and it's a very nuanced one. But then I think one thing definitely our listeners are going to take away from you, Lauren, and this conversation is that, um, number one fact story, cost rewrite, um, four steps. And I think for me, uh, which I'm going to retain now is the camera test. And I think, uh, it's, it's a very, it's a brilliant one. Simple yet a brilliant one. Very effective, I'm very sure. So it's definitely worth checking. And I encourage all of my listeners, uh, those of you who haven't done that yet, please go ahead and try it out. Or even if you have done it once again, just go and try it out with a different perspective after you are done with the episode. But Lauren, if they want to go and reach out to you, explore more about this, share their own experiences, how they can do that.

00:36:41 Lauren Fine: Absolutely. They can find me on Lauren dot com. It's L a u r e n f, like Frank I n e dot com. That's my website. And that's where they can also book a discovery call for coaching and, um, see many more things about, you know, what I've done and what they could do with me. So I encourage our listeners to come in and join me and see what, you know, what they can learn.

00:37:10 Sana: Of course, of course. And listeners, let me make that easier for you because all the links will be there in the show notes. Um, so yep, run the camera test on it today And, um, what would a camera have actually recorded with no interpretation attached. So you can just write down the facts or maybe you can put that in the journal. But that is step one of the framework. And it is often enough to see the story for what it is. And thank you so much, Lauren. I really, really, this was such a great, sharp, warm and genuinely usable episode conversation. Thank you so much.

00:37:50 Lauren Fine: Thank you Sanaa. I enjoyed it very much as well.

00:37:53 Sana: And thank you to all the listeners for tuning in to this episode Um, do share this with your fellow, um, founders or entrepreneur friends or your colleagues, your loved ones, and do follow on Spotify, Apple, or wherever you're tuning in, uh, so that you can get access to all the brilliant episodes that are lined up. But thank you so much. I'm Sana and I'll be back soon.