The medicine of east Asia is based on a science that does not hold itself separate from the phenomenon that it seeks to understand our medicine did not grow out of Petri dish, experimentation, or double blind studies. It arose from observing nature and our part in it. East Asian medicine. From the examination of debt structures, but rather from living systems with their complex mutually entangled interactions. Welcome to qiological. I'm Michael max, the host of this podcast that goes in depth on issues, pertinent to practitioners and students. Of east Asian medicine, dialogue and discussion have always been elemental to Chinese and other east Asian medicines. Listening to these conversations with experienced practitioners that go deep into how this ancient medicine is alive and unfolding in the modern clinic. Hi, everybody. Welcome to the show. I'm pleased today to have Jim Sullivan with me here at the qiological. International headquarters in St. Louis, Missouri. He is an acupuncturist in the St. Louis area as am I. And we're getting together this morning to talk about the use of lasers in clinic. Now, CIM has been at this acupuncture thing for about 20 years now. He spent time in the Northwest where he graduated from nyum. He spent some time working in Springfield, Illinois, working in a hostile. He's got a background in cranio work, as well as acupuncture and currently working in a community acupuncture clinic here in beautiful arch city. Welcome to the show.

Thank you for having me. Thank you for having me this morning. Yeah, this is

great. And it's nice to be able to do it here at the

international headquarters. It's stellar.

So today the subject is use of lasers. I'm curious to know how you got involved with

lasers. Well, it, it comes down to basically my own curiosity. We got a tiny smattering and acupuncture. Over the years, I have stumbled across a few people doing them in their practices, primarily chiropractors. So sometimes it's fun to look over the fence and see what they're up to and understanding what I didn't know about them or how I might apply them. So my own curiosity, secondly, my own need. I get a lot of people that either can't or won't. Get acupuncture. Does it hurt? Are the needles, or sometimes people are just of an age that their skin is so crappy that needling wouldn't be a real appropriate for them or the situation. I remember Dr. Tan said that he used to, when he moved to a new town, he would take a stack of his business cards, a small travel kit of needles and go to the nearest happy hour and on Friday and ask people who has a. And then cure their head. Tom would do exactly. However, as I started to think about this cleanliness at a bar needling at a bar, the liability of needling at a bar that got really complicated, where you could do laser in that situation, I'm also did some trainings with acupunctures without borders for field use, a laser would be stellar. And how many of you have also. Found yourself in a situation one, a client is walking out the door and said, oh yeah, I didn't tell you about the headache I have. So you've got about three minutes to deal with this head. That they didn't tell you about in the first place, because you were too busy doing what they first told you to do, but you do want to help them. And so this would be something you could whip out quickly and easily and not have a huge investment in time. So that's good in that way. And the other one, and I hate to admit it, but how many of you have also had people in a hospital setting, a loved one, a friend who you wanted to do a little something for. To ease their pain and, or calm their mind or whatever, and whipping out needles and doing acupuncture just would not be appropriate or that, but you could always put a deep liability, right. Where you could pull one of these out and do that very quickly and effectively. And so curiosity need one of the other things. I recently taught a class for the acupuncture association of Missouri on this, and I used the term. Psyllium towel, which is a wing Chung form of Kung Fu it's the first form. And what it really translates to be is a small thought or the little idea form. And what it means is in these few little ideas, the entire system is laid out to you. So whenever I go to a workshop or something, I'm trying to grasp onto the one little idea that I can build into a. And that's what I try to do. And that's kinda what I try to do with, with my knowledge of lasers and how I built it up. I tried to. A few basic concepts to build on that. You can move forward into treatment with people without getting bogged down with a lot of dogma. Let's get into

some of the nuts and bolts about this. One of the big questions that I've got, and I suspect our listeners may have as well. How is a laser different than a needle in terms of, of how it stimulates the channel? Can you use it to sedate or to tonify. It's just, how do we use light instead

of only piece of steel? Think of the difference between moxibustion maybe, and this is a generality, there will be, I've read different things in different books. The generality is a needle is good at moving the cheese, unsticking, the cheek, creating some more. When you put needles into tissues, you usually putting them down to the fascial layer. And when you excite the needle, some people believe you are putting pressure on the fascia, which has made out of collagen and elastin and mineral salts. And when you put pressure on mineral salts, you get piezoelectric fields. Yeah. It's pretty cool. Piezo electric fields are, are like what makes your quartz crystal watch? So now you are creating a spark that has a preference. It's going to follow the fascial planes or the meridians and send a message deeper into the body. Okay. These conduits, the meridians of the body, which are facially related that have a tendency to conduct electricity, also conduct light energy. So now you have a system of pathways that you can do that. Now. I think that the, the needles move. She in a more strong fashion, but sometimes when there's a lot of blockages, it's like sending a freight train and then hitting a barrier. It just stops. Whereas, if you can just make the cheese gently flow around the obstacle, as time goes on, it breaks up the obstacle. And that's how I see laser light working much gentle or more on the, on the terms of, of, of, um, moxibustion kinda like, uh, on, on a box. Is it on a buggy? Is that, is

that where they do the little, like tapping with pieces of incense,

incense on the, on the gene? Well points. And one of the things that does is it clears the entire channel, but very gently, it's like a nice gentle push rather than a shelf where the needle might be a little bit more of a shove needles. Wandering Wells tend to be kind of a shove. They tend to be a little bit of a shove where I think you could get away with. Incense on the points. But for example, what that does is that gently clears the entire channel. I will also say that the laser probably is a little bit more young energy where maybe the needle affects a little bit more of the yin energy of the channel

that would make sense, given the marriage the nature of light being young. Exactly. Yeah. So in terms of actually working with or stimulating the meridians is would you use laser. Differently than you would

use an acupuncture. Absolutely. And here's something to think about in the chiropractic slash physical therapy arena. Some of the machines can be $5,000, you know, there's several thousand dollars. And the reason why is that the amount of power based on their style of treatment has to be tremendously high. They're trying, for example, if your low back hurts, they're going to blanket the entire low back. So the head on these machines is about a four-inch square and to move a four inch square of energy. That way takes a lot. And that's going to take a big machine to do it. If your knee hurts, you irradiate the knee. If your back hurts your radiate, the back. If your shoulder hurts, you irradiate the shoulder and that's the level of thought that goes into it. And here's the interesting thing. The part that I wanted to get across in the class that I taught is that we as acupuncturists have a secret, we know how to open the gate. We know how to enter into the body by way of the Meridian system and points. We not a precision with personal vision, not a sledgehammer. So if we can persistently move into the Meridian system, we can have effect at other places in the body. The thicker, the tissue is the more laser light you need. For example, on your back, the tissue is fairly heavy and thick. So you need a lot of power to get through that. But for example, if you want to do a hand point, a DJing Wellpoint, so Jean well points, classically DJing, well points are used to stimulate the opposite end of the. That is classically how they're used. However, for example, the gene, well points on the hand, there was a research study and we have that here. Well, in a nutshell, I don't have that right here in, in, you know, we can put

that kind of stuff on show

notes page. Okay. Um, in a nutshell, um, they did a study on neuropathy of the hand. And carpal tunnel pain and dysfunction. And what they found is by applying laser light to the DJing well points, they got a tremendous amount of relief for the hand that lets me know that it doesn't necessarily always have to affect the opposite end of the channel. That is one thing it does do, but what it really appears to do is clear the whole channel gently, like you were talking about exactly. That's the magic, because if you. Apply to Jean well points, knowing that you're going to clear an entire channel slowly and gently. You don't need as much power because you're going to use the acupuncture points in the thin skin of the DJing. Well points to access the entire body and the entire Meridian. That's the magic. So

you don't need a big fancy laser.

You don't. My suggestion are hand-held lasers and that's what I'm primarily talking about. Costing about a hundred dollars. Um, I like OMS, which is Oriental medical supply, but there's other companies you want somewhere in the range of 670 nanometers of wavelength, about five milli Watts of power. The head on these things is about eight millimeters compared to four inches square where their most appropriate. Would be, for example, the DJing well points or maybe even, um, Korean hand therapy, um, maybe some of the Dr. Tan points,

probably the dome points. Yeah. I was thinking that could be really helpful there

with the power that I just described about the five milliwatt power, um, hand points you would hold those for about 30 to 90 seconds. That's not bad. Another place where the skin is very thin, our ear points, you could do ear points. You could do the, not a protocol, which not only is good for addictions. It's good for stressing anxiety. Um, quite a few things like that. It's also, if you look at it, in terms of five element is a very well balanced five element treatment. That's why, um, acupuncturists without borders, that is one of the. Go-to techniques. Um, they primarily do that in the field first, and then they might find tune it with specific pain points. But a lot of times, if you just bring general pain down overall, you get the specific pain with it so much. So that for example, battlefield acupuncture as done by the air force is kind of a generic treatment. However, that generic treatment covers a wide range. It seems to be able to help destroy. The link between the event, the negative traumatic event, and current time it breaks that bridge. And that's a real issue in post-traumatic stress. It also seems to reduce pain, whatever pain the person is having by about 70% and they have done a recent and remarkable

I've I've I've used it myself. My only issue with the battlefield acupuncture is there. You're putting these studs in the. It's really not pleasant for most people. That is true, even though it helps with the pain

it's you can needle those points and also you can laser those points, laser them. I like the idea of lasering them. And if you lasered points, I'm looking at the range and I did some calculations to get to. That are absolutely boring, is looking at the density of tissue and the width of the head and the duration of time to get the amount of jewels that are therapeutically beneficial. Instead, it's a lot easier to think of hand points, 30 to 90 seconds, ear points, 30 to 45 seconds per point. So that's the magic place is 30 to 45 seconds per point. So you could do a 10, 10, um, uh, needle protocol and under 10 minutes. So now you could do battlefield acupuncture in less than 10 minutes.

You could do battlefield acupuncture and listen three or four minutes, actually exact what? The main points that they use. I'm just thinking in my own

practice needing study. Yeah.

I mean, someone comes in if they've got an acute pain going on, why not start with that and just see how much it knocks it down. That would be a great little,

the air clinical study does that. And they have nurses. Who put in battlefield acupuncture, let's say you have low back pain and some stress. They'll do that a few times. If that doesn't do it, you're kicked up to the doctor who actually does more full body acupuncture. They're kind of trained in the, um, I believe it was Berkeley has. Hunter or 300 hour acupuncture program. Um, the medical acupuncture program at Berkeley

says, I think it started out at UCLA. It's a

UCLA, I'm sorry at UCLA. Um, and it's a 300 hour acupuncture program and they have sent there. The air force has sent their doctors to that. And so it's a great program. If the technician can't handle it with a general treatment, then it is kicked up, but they go through the general technician first to. Stream down the amount of people actually seeing the doctors they're trying to be more effective. Yeah. So if they can cure your low back pain with battlefield acupuncture, you never need to see the doctor and boom, you're happy. They're happy. Everything's good. If it needs to be kicked up a notch, they do have someone there to kick it up a notch.

To know if you're using this in your, since you do community acupuncture these days, or that's a piece of your practice

piece, it's a piece.

So are you using the

laser in there? I am. And it's very interesting. Maybe I'll do some body points for something else. And then, like I said, one cleanup issues or just little dangly, straggly issues. Sometimes someone comes in that is just so stressed out. That's a good application. Maybe I'll do the battlefield stuff first and then just put it in a few points and let them bake, you know, a little bit. And in that community style setting that works, I could spend five minutes on, on laser points, put a quick formula of points in, you know, a Dr. Tan Shen disturbance treatment or something, and then move on to someone else. The time in the community setting is always important. It's crucial. And you have to kind of, I hate to say cookbook, but you, you need to have some base strategies in your back pocket to whip out quickly. One of the other things that I do on the hand points, as I do some Korean hand therapy at a correspondence level that was developed by a Korean gentleman, um, in the seventies, And it was actually developed into an entire system that parallels in complexity, some of the Japanese systems there's tonification and sedation and five element theory, but at a very base level is what they call correspondence level all 365 points. Basically 14 meridians are on your hands. The center line, starting on the Palm surface of the hand, represents the front of the body. The back of the hand represents the back of the body. The Ming middle finger represents the face area on the pad of the finger, going down to the neck, being the first crease in the, in the knuckle there and moving on down into the torso of the body. Matter of fact, it's kind of interesting that in the Korean system, oh, approximately. They use for genital pain and that area a point around pericardium seven and Dr. Tan has always used that for genital pain, um, menstrual cramps, all those things. So there's a parallel system here. Maybe different systems have different dogmas, but still there's something going on here. Um, the back of the hand, Dr. Tan uses the first knuckle on the middle finger for neuro problem. So do the Koreans. So there's overlaps in the S the theories and the dog well might be different, but the application is very similar. Again, the skin on the hand is thin enough. You can do laser treatments on those and get effect, right? Yeah.

So does this mean that when you're using lasers in the way that we're talking about it today, these small handheld ones, not these big ones that you're basically treating Hans. Yours, you don't, you wouldn't use it on like a large intestine, 11. You wouldn't use it on a gallbladder.

No, uh, you know, gallbladder 21, everybody hurts there, but it doesn't have a horsepower to get through the meat. It just does it. And so people will use it on that and say, oh, these things don't work. How could this work, this doesn't work and they put it in their back box of junk and never doesn't see the light of day. Again, it's a difference between a broad sword and a fencing foil. You ha you change the style of practice to fit the two. You can't expect two tools to work the same. So maybe to release this area, I

do all bladder 21. You'd have

to, yeah. I could get fancy and use liver channel, which is a balancing point. Um, liver three liver, four or five, something like that, um, to get a different response. Yeah. So that's how I might use. And the biggest thing about this class that I want to say is get the, you know, if you have one it's one of these little ones, get it out of the drawer and start to think back to that. These are ideas that I came up with using it on DJing. Well points, Korean hand therapy points, um, ear points, maybe even some of the facial scalp points. The th the skin is thin enough. You can activate, there are other ideas. This is the psyllium tower aspect of this, the little thought, the little idea that plants a seed for the big thought. Maybe you come up with totally different strategies, but the thing that's going to remain the same as you're going to pick thin skin spots, because you don't have a lot of horsepower, right? You can use acupuncture, precision versus Western medicine, sledgehammer.

If you did want to use lasers on other parts of the body, you'd have to, you'd have to gear up for it basically and get one of these stronger.

Absolutely. One of the guys at the clinic had a thing, a, probably about a foot long and about, oh, I don't know that big around. It sounds like about the size of a lightsaber. Yeah, small lightsaber, but he took it and he put it on his piece of paper and burnt a hole in the paint. And I was like, that might be a little stronger than what we're thinking here.

This, this brings up another question of terms that I've heard about lasers, that you've got hot lasers and cold laser.

That is interesting. It has to do again with horsepower, for example, class one lasers. You'll, you'll have those in, in like your laser printer in your office, some of the equipment that you use to turn things on and off, uh, at home, those are class one lasers. Those are about one milli watt or. Not a lot of horsepower. You don't need any goggles. You don't need any protective equipment. Class, two lasers are considered safe for momentary viewing. So you can let it pass by your eye. I wouldn't stare at it all day, but if it passes by your eye, you don't need any goggles or anything like that. That's a class two. The, the ones we're primarily talking about our class three lasers, they're up to five milli Watts. Um, you don't need any goggles when you use them. Things like that would not want to look at it. You wouldn't stare at it. If you transitory passed it by your fine transitory, that's a class three a. Now the ones that we're talking about, the little pocket things, they're usually a class three B, they are 5 million. Up to 500, Billy Watts, protective goggles or glasses are recommended and you wouldn't want to look at this long-term directly. A brief pass would be okay. Then we move into the hotter lasers. Uh, class four lasers are 500 milli Watts are more, that would be considered a hot laser. You see that in surgery, you see that in industry, you know, once you're above 500, it doesn't have an into it. It's everything. 500 milli Watts to the James Bond. One that's melting the planet. It's anything higher than. And those would be hot layers and those definitely require equipment. And I will say that the ones that you typically see like in the chiropractor's office are high end class B lasers. Um, they are pretty hot, but not considered hot, but you do wear goggles, both patient and client. And that gets a little bit. We in turn are, are looking at it and we're putting it almost direct. If not directly on the skin, within a millimeter or two of the skin, you don't actually

contact the skin with the laser. You just hold

it above. You don't want to put the diode on the skin. So what they've done is they've recessed the diode, a few millimeters. So by pressing the laser against the skin, there's still a millimeter or so reset. And you can put it on there in the shroud will protect you from any visible light. You know, I'll sit on the couch and give myself treatments. You know, I'm

curious to know how you would recommend folks go about finding out more information about the use of lasers in a way that's not thinly disguised marketing because I've gone and given it a bit of a look like most of it, it really does it it's. It just seems more like marketing. Did anything else?

It is. Um, if you want some understanding of what lasers are, what they do, a book called light and laser therapy, clinical procedures. There's a fifth edition by a Curtis Turchin who is a chiropractor. I'll put that on the show notes, put that on the show notes page. It describes things like, what is. How do you calculate jewels? Things like that. This has a wonderful section on classes of labor lasers, why thicker skin and how to paint with the laser, things like that, where it breaks down is it doesn't talk too much about acupuncture points, et cetera. That gives you a wonderful background, but when it comes to treatment strategies, They're going with the Lark. If the shoulder hurts, do it kind of approach. So that's the good side, the bad side with this book. The good side is it gives lots of theory and understanding about the basics of wavelengths and jewels and all of them. The application of the treatment, I'm going to say that's where you have to start using your acupuncture knowledge and that's

what we're trained to do. Anyway. That's

what we're trained to do a second book that is a little bit more geared towards the lower power is laser acupuncture and introductory text. And it has tons and tons of research projects that have been done. It gives the application and how they did it and things like that. And then the outcomes who's doing the research on this stuff. A lot of Europeans, there are things going on in the United States. Like the one that I referenced towards the carpal tunnel and neuropathy was done, like, uh, the journal of physical medicine. So a very Western thing, and they were applying it with small handheld laser. Using acupuncture points to enter it. And those were the results they got. And so this book does have some, um, uh, United States, but it also, it seems like the Europeans are just a little bit ahead of us as lasers develop. The initial research was that it was therapeutic took place in, in Russia or other Soviet bloc countries and China. They seem to share research back and forth. Then it spread into Europe from Russia and eventually jumped into the United. We're kind of behind the power curve and application, you know, it seems

like the Russians have done a lot of innovative stuff with, for lack of a better term. And I hate this term, but I'm going to use it anyway. I'm using air quotes, energy medicine. They seem to look at alternatives, uh, and consider it more than we do here in the west. I

think the Russians definitely do some of it is a Gemeinschaft or a thought process. Their own mindset allows them that. Some of our own biases and backgrounds don't even allow us to think or do the research in that. And they're doing the research and they're exploring new options. They have a unique segue between the Asian thought model and European thought they are a segue back and forth, and they've had people passing through their country and on their borders and they get to share these ideas and they seem to ride the rail in both worlds where we are clearly. You know, our thought processes are different. Step one, step two, step three, linear. They think in circles,

which is the way we think in Chinese medicine and Chinese

medicine works. Exactly. And systems.

Anything else that you think our listeners would benefit from in terms of thinking about how to start using lasers or things that they should know about? Uh, bringing lasers into their practice.

I wouldn't invest heavily in cost. I would a hundred bucks to pick up one of these books, but also use what you know of acupuncture theory. Um, I think I've already, I want to say it one more time. Your points are 30 to 45 seconds, hand points, 60 to 90 seconds with a small laser. Some of the body points that are still thin skin that might be like UV to, um, two to three minutes. And you be too, can be used to influence back pain since it's unblocking the entire channel. Maybe you be 67, something like that anyway, but play with them and see it as options. Don't, don't allow just the way you've been doing things to dictate how you will do things in the future. Bring in this little baby thought and maybe it'll really flourish. Maybe you'll just use this on friends and family. Maybe you'll make this as part of a formal. Maybe you don't, I don't know where it could go for you. Yeah, well, it certainly

is worth experimenting and put or bucks to do your own experiment is. Exactly. That's not much of a barrier to

entry. I will say that when I first read laser acupuncture, an introductory text, they, they had several forms to fill out, to send to the FDA laser department. And at the very, very last out of this collection of forms. Send them in for every client. You see, they said, this is recommended and it has no regulatory mandate mandate to do this. So with the light, small lasers, you have no obligation to do any of that paperwork stuff. So don't let that throw you off track. We're free to experiment or free to experiment with lasers of this string.

You know, it's interesting. I've got a number of patients. Who take their critters to see some sort of alternative practitioner and sometimes they'll do acupuncture, but I've had a number of patients who get their animals lasered. It seems. Common room veterinarian world these days.

It does. Now I would guess that they're using more of a physical therapy style laser. Now there is research that shows that, you know, a four-inch head with lots of power over a hip joint does increase. Circulation does take pain away, all those things. They use it in athletic sports medicine all the time. So there is value there, but is it practical for us to apply it that way? Maybe not. Plus we have some added knowledge that they don't. It used to be that you could do acupuncture on animals. Most of those laws, as an acupuncturist with the guidance of a veterinarian, most of all states have changed their laws to stating that you have to be a veterinarian, but in the day I have done some animals.

When I was in acupuncture school, I used to acupuncture my cat. And the curious thing about that cat was she's a very nice cat, but she would never sit on your lap for more than five. Was she had an acupuncture needle in her and then she calmed

down and then she calmed down, well, I will share a story with you. I had a small practice in Tacoma, Washington, and it was kind of a horse shoe shape, building complex. I got there early. I walked out, I flipped my closed open sign and there's this really large Rottweiler walking around out there. And I wasn't afraid of him, but I was worried that he was scared clients off. So I went out and I talked to him for a little bit and he seemed. I also noticed the, had a little limp. I went in, I called animal control. They said they may get to him today, or they may not pick him up today. And I said, well, okay. So I went back out and talked to him some more and, and I, my first client of the day canceled. So I walked him in my office. I put him, I'd drop my table down. I had a hydraulic table and I dropped it down and I put him on it. I put a heat lamp on his hip. He liked that. So I did some new. He laid there. Just fine for it. I took the needles out. I took him out. He didn't limp anymore. He walked around, you know, and I put him in a back room waiting for animal control to came. They finally came. I gave it to him. I said, you know what? This was a good dog. Don't destroy him or anything. If you have trouble, call me, I will find a home or I'll take him myself because he's very, well-behaved. They didn't call me back later that day, I called them back and he said, oh no, his daddy came for him right away. And I thought, if that dog could talk, I got out for the day, I got an acupuncture treatment and I got to go to jail all in one day. The wisdom of animals. Exactly. You had a big adventure as a

great, any final thoughts that you'd like to share with our listeners before we wind this town today, just

that I think is acupuncture. Again, don't limit yourself to what you have always done. Our main thought is if there's any potential to help a patient or a client, what can I bring out of the toolbox to do so? Even if it's something as small as this, that just gives them a little temporary relief for a little bit, that's, that's a movement in the right direction that you can build.

Yep. Great, Jim, thanks for being with us today.