00:00:06 Sana: Welcome back, dear listeners to the Mindful Living Podcast. I am Sana, your host as always here. And listeners, today's one. This one is going to be very interesting because I'm joined by, I'm joined by someone, um, who has spent much of his life challenging conventional thinking And this is this is important listeners, you know, because most of the times, most of us, we are kind of hung on extremes, you know, like right, left, always good or bad. Um, or we are just kind of caged in, uh, validating or supporting or advocating a certain thing. But then what happens when you become an independent thinker?

00:00:54 Sana: So listeners, let's introduce my guest. So Tom Kladis, he's a writer, speaker, adventurer, and a lifelong student of possibility. His work explores the connection between faith, personal choice, and the stories that we tell ourselves about what is and what isn't possible. Through his writing and his unconventional, own unconventional life experiences, which we will get to explore in the conversation, he encourages people to open their minds. question limiting beliefs and approach life with curiosity instead of fear. So let's get into this and let's welcome Tom. Tom, welcome to the Mindful Living. And it's such an honor having you here.

00:01:42 Tom Cladis: Thank you very much for having me. I'm very happy to be here.

00:01:46 Speaker 6: Okay.

00:01:47 Sana: Tom, I'm so excited because I'm very sure listeners are going to have a blast, you know, when they discover the experiences that you have had. So, for someone who is, meeting you for the first time, just like me, who is Tom Cladis beyond all the titles and accomplishments, if you can share.

00:02:09 Tom Cladis: From Paris is, um, an adventure. He's very curious. He, uh, when I was, uh, when I was a very young boy. I have, Greek heritage and in Greek my name is Athanasios and that means the immortal one. And I thought that was a very interesting concept. It was hard for me to wrap my mind around it when I was six years old, but I always left my mind open to the possibility of what the immortal soul, the immortal one, means. Like living forever without limits. And I was always curious about that. And so, um, in leaving my mind open, um, it explored, it explored, um, you know, uh, the absence of limits. Um, and I've always wanted to challenge limits. I have, uh, I've never felt constrained by them. Um, and so, you know, as you said in the opening, uh, I'm all about opening people's minds. I compare the mind to a parachute. And um, the mind has well, minds have to be open to function properly. Just like parachutes have to be open to function properly. And so, you know, the closed mind, uh, invites the same outcome as the closed parachute. So whenever anyone told me that I couldn't do something, it was a challenge for me that why can't I do it? I really want to do it. And so I was always pushing myself to challenge limits. Um, when I was a very young boy, there was a, I had a motorcycle and there was this big jump and everyone was afraid to take the jump and they said it was too dangerous. But, uh, I took the jump and I had to take the jump and I, and I made it. Um, there's a, there's a, uh, so that's, that's kind of where I'm at. Um, I think I've always wanted to color outside of the lines. Lines are very limiting. Um, you're within the confines of these lines and outside the lines, there are no lines. That's where freedom is. And I've always. My challenge has been to open people's minds to the freedom that we all have, but we don't know about it. One example that I'd like to share with you, um, there's in the United States, there's a in Wisconsin, a young boy named Lance Myers. He was eighteen years old. He was working on his car at his girlfriend's house. It was up on a jack. The car fell off the jack and onto his face. And there was no one, no one around to help him. And so what? Lance lifted the car off his face and and survived. And the only thing that happened to him was he got some superficial cuts around his eyes because his glasses broke that he wore. And Lance was not a strong, strong. He was not a weightlifter of the, you know, big athlete or anything like that. And reporters asked him, Lance, how were you able to lift this car off your face? And he said, because I didn't want to die. I, I wanted to live. So Sana, in choosing to live, he subconsciously had to remove this barrier in his mind that he couldn't lift a car. And when he was freed of that barrier, he was able to lift the car off his face. And so, you know, it's I'm all about removing barriers in people's minds, not necessarily lifting a car like Lance. If he was if if he was just walking down the street and someone asked, pointed to a car and said, hey, Lance, lift that car. He said, I can't do it. But when he was faced with the choice between life and death, he, he. He chose to live. And so he removed that barrier in his mind that he couldn't lift a car. So I'm all about trying to get encourage people to remove barriers from their minds. And I do that for myself too. Um, I have wrestled alligators and, um, it's, you know, it's, you can, you can either focus on your fear or you can focus on a positive outcome and it's what you choose to focus on. So I walked into this pond full of alligators very carefully. And, um, I grabbed one of the alligators by its tail and it tried to, it tried to bite me as long with alligators though. They can't, they can't swivel all the way around to, to turn all the way around to bite you. So as long as you hold on to that tail, they can't get you. So you're, you're pretty inspired to hold on to that tail. And then eventually when they figure out you're not gonna, you're not going to let go. Um, they give up. And so I pulled the, I pull the alligator out of the pond, throw in REM motion. You throw the tail between your legs, jump on their back and grab their jaw and pull them back like this. And they're absolutely helpless. So I've always, you know, I've always challenged myself to do things where, where the challenge is to stay focused on what you want to happen, not on what might go wrong or on on something, on a negative outcome. Uh, I used to, uh, I lecture in schools with, with, uh, young kids. And when I go into classrooms, I take with me a two by four piece of board and I lay it on the floor. It's about ten feet long. I lay it on the floor and I challenge the kids. I said, hey, show me that you can walk across this board. And they think I'm being so silly because it's the easiest thing in the world for them to do. They walk across it, they run some of them hop, some of them go backwards and tongue. This is so easy. And then I say, okay, you've proven to me this is the easiest thing in the world for you to do. Now I'm going to lift the board and put it suspended between two desks about three feet high. I said, now walk across it, and again they do it. It's the easiest thing for them to do. And then I tell them, I'm going to put this band across the Royal Gorge, which is a big canyon in Colorado. It's a fourteen hundred foot drop to the bottom. I said, now walk across it and they say no. And I said, you have just proven to me that it's the easiest thing in the world to do for you. Why? Why can't you do it? And I said, well, we might fall. And I said, look, what's happened. You've chosen to shift your focus away from what you've proven is the easiest thing in the world to do, and you're focused on doubt and fear. And so that's, that's, I think that's a good example of how powerful the mind is. You talk about mindful living? It's a wonderful it's a wonderful title for your podcast. Um, you have to it's what you choose. The I say the challenge of life is the challenge of choice, what you choose to focus on. And so always choose to focus on what you want to happen and not what might go wrong.

00:09:27 Sana: That's there's a lot to register. Tom.

00:09:31 Tom Cladis: It is. I'm sorry. I get going and I can't stop.

00:09:34 Sana: It was it was actually I mean, I could have, I could have listened to you for hours and hours, and I'm very sure the same feeling. Right. You know, all the schools are having right now, but, um, I'll, I'll, I'll begin with the example that he gave, because that's what exactly one of your nonfiction book, you know, your title also says the same. Yes. And, um, you know, cheating death. I think in the mainstream, uh, we have seen the versions, final destination and all kind of that stuff. But then there have been, there have been, um, examples all over the world where, um, I think I'm kind of digressing from the context because it's, it was not that Lance. Lance cheated death. He actually overcame that fear of death. He had that strong will to live, which is kind of symbolic in today's day and age, Tom, because, um, I think we are all kind of restricted by this fear. Um, and I also want to bring in something which is actually on the other side of, you know, because when people would hear someone saying that, okay, you do the, you be adventurous, you know, you explore, you overcome your fear and you, jumping off of cliffs or maybe, um, doing parkour or, uh, doing something which, you know, conventionally people would say it's just, you know, fall into your death. It's a death trap. Mhm. Now there will be two kinds of people, you know, the someone who will be. Yeah, I think yeah. I mean, humans can do it, you know, let's be adventurous and let's try that out. But then there's another the other group will say there's a difference between fear and recklessness. So I want to ask you, Tom, because, there will be different, you know, people will be there with different kind of opinions and thought processes and belief systems. So how do you make sure that there's a difference between fear and recklessness? Because, uh, in the same context, I would also like to bring in the way that you, uh, you started, you know, you introduced yourself, um, and you would like to be known as an independent thinker. And I think, um, this is relevant in today's day and age because, um, either we will go completely, you know, reckless and careless. We wouldn't care about anything what we are saying, or we'll be so much controlled by that fear. Um, ruminating about the future. What are the repercussions going to happen if I just say the honest thing? If it is good, it is good. But if it is bad, it is bad. And if it is just for the sake of attracting engagement and likes and dislikes. And you know, the kind of negative marketing, especially in the online and digital world that we see, that's why so many of us, we're always having that fear that before saying something, we have to think more than twice, you know, because people will be ready to just call it a blasphemy. And that's what, you know, uh, we have mentioned in your introduction, um, on your website that, uh, as per George Bernard Shaw, all great truths, they start out as blasphemy. So I want to understand from you.

00:13:03 Tom Cladis: I want to let's start with the difference between fear and recklessness. Um, uh, I'm a Christian and, um, growing up, uh, I grew up, I went to Sunday school every, every Sunday and, you know, whatever a person's, uh, um, image of a supreme being is whether it's God or Allah or whatever the Supreme being is. I'm going to say God, but you can whatever anyone listeners, uh, image of a supreme being is just translate supreme being by definition for a supreme being, everything is possible because there's supreme. So we, um, in the, in the, Bible. Matthew. Matthew seventeen twenty. Jesus is telling us, uh, if you have the faith of a mustard seed, nothing will be impossible for you. And, um, it's that, that, that, uh, that was a very appealing passage for me because again, um, I was, I was at an early age exposed to the idea of no limits through my name. And it, it always bothered me that, um, the people say they believe in Jesus, but they don't believe what he says. Um, because people will say, well, there everything there, there are things that are impossible. They just automatically accepted those things without critically examining them. Um, you know, um, if you have, say there's a fence, okay. And the Supreme Being is on one side and on and, and on the side of the fence of this reframing of the Supreme Being, everything is possible. The moment you choose to believe that something is impossible, it puts you on the other side of the fence and you're in a land of things not being possible. And so, um, the challenge is to stay on the side of the fence of the Supreme Being on God's side of the fence. He also said in Luke ten nineteen, I have given you the authority to trample over serpents and scorpions, the title of my book, and over all the power of the enemy, and nothing by any means shall ever hurt you. And no one. I mean, they choose to believe in Jesus. They choose to believe in God, but they don't believe what he says. I got into a very, um, a spirited discussion with an archbishop at the Catholic Church, and I was discussing the, that passage from Matthew seventeen twenty. And, um, he tried to tell me that, um, well, that's not Jesus. Didn't mean that. Uh, you could move mountains if you have faith. And I said I, I told him, I said, you know, that sounds a lot like what the serpent told to Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden. God said, if you if you take a bite of the forbidden fruit, you'll die. And the serpent is challenging by saying, well, that's not what he meant. And I said, you sounded like a lot like the serpent in the Garden of Eden. And he didn't like that. And and the conversation ended. But see, that's, that's our challenge. I, um, uh, I honestly believe that that, uh, he created us to be masters in his image, to live forever and to be masters of our universe. He mentioned the title of my first book, How to Live Cars Off Your Face and Other Tips for Living Forever. I honestly believe that God continues to create us to live forever. But the fact that we don't is because we have it in our minds that living forever is impossible. It's. And so we. We program ourselves to die, basically. I know that's a, that's a really, uh, far out concept, but I mean, that's what we have to do. We have to, we have to, we have to get outside of, outside of our limits. You know, uh, Albert Einstein, who was one of the, one of the most brilliant men in the ever in the world, he said imagination is more important than knowledge because it takes you another famous, um, another famous, um, scientist in the United States, Thomas Edison, said, we only know one millionth of one percent of all there is to know. So based on that very limited base of knowledge, how can we say that anything is impossible? It's just it hasn't been discovered yet or it hasn't been done yet, so I. When anyone tells me something is impossible, I say, no, it's not impossible. It just hasn't been done yet. And that's why I think that that three letter word in, in in English yet is the most important world word in, in, in the language. Because when you say yet it leaves your mind open to possibilities. And so, um, then your mind doesn't close off and then you're able to expand. Expand your horizons and move beyond those lines. Um, in the, in the early nineteen fifties, um, scientists said that it is physiologically impossible for the human body to run a mile in less than four minutes. So Roger Bannister, a runner from England, chose not to believe that and not not to shut down and, you know, shut down. And the thought that I can't do it. And he was the first person to run a mile in less than free of that barrier of that limit. He was the first person to run a mile in less than four minutes. And now the record, I think, is three minutes and forty two seconds or something like that. Galileo, um, back in the sixteen hundreds was an astronomer, and he challenged the dogma, dogma, truth of the Catholic Church that, um, you know, the earth was the center of the universe. You said it's not it revolves around the sun. And the church persecuted him for ten years, which ultimately led to his death. But the fact was he was right. And it. Believe it or not, it took the the church four hundred years to admit that they were wrong. So we have to just not accept things at face value. Um, and when you don't accept things at face value, you open your mind and you start to take little, little baby steps. Um, Chinese philosopher said the journey of a thousand miles starts with a single step. You take these little single steps and pretty soon you're way outside the lines and you're living very freely. And it doesn't mean you have to wrestle alligators or jump off a cliffs, or jump out of airplanes or anything like that. Whatever, whatever. Something, whatever you want to do, if it's take a test, um, public speaking, um, you know, as an athlete, you know, being a good athlete, it's, it's, it's challenging your mind and, and again, it's, it's not this fear and recklessness, it's just challenge your mind to, um, focus on what you want to happen. And so I don't think a lot of people look at me and they'll say what I do is reckless. But in my mind, it's not the, uh, a few years ago, my daughter and I were in Salzburg, Austria. There's a big hill in Salzburg, and there's a castle on top of the hill. And we were taking a tour of the castle, and there's a castle wall that I wanted to do a handstand on, and it was a drop of about on the on the other side, about two hundred and fifty feet. And I asked my daughter to take a picture while I did the handstand. She said, I'm not going to take your picture. I said, dad, I said, Cassie, take the picture. And she said, no. And we got into about a fifteen minute argument. And finally she said, fine, give me the camera. And I, you know, I did the handstand now, now son, again, I wasn't thinking about falling. I knew one hundred percent with my heart, mind and soul that I would be able to do that handstand and I would be fine. And sure enough, I did the handstand. She took a picture. It's a beautiful picture and people would think that reckless. But in my mind it wasn't reckless because I knew what I could do and I there was no chance in my mind, there was no chance for to fall for me. So when it's in your mind. And there's no chance of something going wrong. Is that reckless or not? It's not reckless. And finally she said, I she wouldn't talk to me for an hour after that. And I said, Cassie. Cassie. And she goes, dad, I just didn't know how to say morgue in Austrian. Like she thought she was going to have to call the morgue to get my dead body after I fell off the cliff, I said, Cassie, I was so dialed in. And so that's just an example, what some people perceive as recklessness. I don't think it's recklessness in absence of fear and focus on what you want to do, anything, everything is possible. And so that's, um, Henry Ford was the famous automaker in the United States. And he said, whether you think you can or you can't, you're right. So that's the challenge. It's to harness our mind, mindful, mindful living. And it'll, you harness that energy that we are created with. And it depends on what you focus on and you'll be able to do it. It's not reckless. It looks reckless to others, but it's not reckless.

00:22:39 Sana: Exactly, exactly. Yeah. I think you you covered a couple of important things. And this is not about, that because you are saying and this is exactly what and how I think that's why I am supporting that. But if we look at everything, a couple of things which I want to actually reflect upon on what you shared is, number one, you mentioned about critical thinking. I think, you know, it's hugely lacking in today's day and age and probably it's because of acceptance. Yeah, we are just accepting. We are just having our own echo chambers. And um, anyone who is either either challenging that echo chamber or having a different kind of idea, you know, just as the example that you gave, we Try to deem them as you know they are. They're having some kind of this malicious intent or some kind of, you know, self selfish, ulterior motive or agenda. You know, and.

00:23:42 Tom Cladis: Because we think differently, we must be weird or we must have bad intentions. They just can't wrap their minds about it around it.

00:23:52 Speaker 6: Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

00:23:54 Sana: And secondly, I think Tom, imagination and curiosity are something which I, I believe, you know, because I come from an education system which, follows that very standard template that you study, do not ask so many questions. just what has been given over to you? Hand it over to you. Read that study that you just, get up and regurgitate and that's it. You know, you are done and you get your marks, you get your scores, get your degree, get your job. The linear template standard. I think there is a very there is very less room for imagination and curiosity, which I believe, it has been affecting the generations in, across generations and now I, I also believe that there is a, now, especially the younger people, they are coming at the forefront to demand that kind of curiosity and imagination that why it has to be only this one single lifeline. Why can't it be a different kind of tangent or a trajectory for me, not only career, but my life. And you know, it will be, people will be again, it will be easier to judge. Okay, you're being a rebel. You are being, reckless or you don't have any fear of anything. You're just being careless and reckless. So, um, I think, um, we, we definitely need this mindful living. We need that patience, compassion and this critical thinking, um, that even.

00:25:30 Tom Cladis: If there was, yeah, I'm sorry if there was no curiosity or no imagination, we'd still be living in caves. You know, at some point someone said, well, we can do this better. And that's because they thought beyond, beyond the the limits, beyond what was known, beyond what was the the body of knowledge at the time, you know, so well, we can do this better. Every, every part of progress that's happened is because someone was curious and, and they had an open mind, well, we can do this. And I'm saying, and Edison was the same way, he says, but still we only know one millionth of one percent of all. There's there's so much more. And we just can't drop anchor, you know, when we drop anchor in the status quo. We're not growing. We're not moving and we're stuck. And it was, you know, the people who sailed with Columbus. They want the they want the comfortable ones. They didn't have comfortable. I mean, uh, they, uh, they, they were, they weren't comfortable. I think comfort is, is an enemy of curiosity because you get comfortable in your way of life and you get settled in and you stop exploring. And so, uh, I think you have to continue to be, um, curious and, um, and not drop anchor because drop anchor, you stagnate. And so, um, you know, comfort is comfort is the enemy.

00:27:04 Speaker 6: Absolutely. Yeah.

00:27:08 Sana: Oh, brilliant. I wish we could have more time, uh, to, to talk about this further, but I think Tom, this was such such an energetic and very, uh, invigorating, um, experience for me as a person, as a host. And I'm, I'm very happy because the, what we discussed today is kind of the essence, you know, exactly why I believe that mindful living, we all need mindful living. And it's not just about the cosmetic part of it. Um, but the deeper essence of exactly why mindful living is needed. Um, so I'm very sure our listeners are very curious to explore more about you, Tom, and about your body of work, your books as well. So how they can reach out to you and explore.

00:27:56 Tom Cladis: Thank you. Um, first of all, I want to say thank you so much, uh, for, for this time. Um, I've enjoyed speaking. I think we plugged in, we plugged into each other's energy and we elevated both of ourselves. And it's, I think that's, that's, that's a wonderful thing. My They can get Ahold of me through my website, it's w w w dot writes dot com, that's one word T o m c l a d I s w r I t e s dot com. Um, they can reach me via email at hello at writes dot com, and then I have an Instagram profile, it's Tom C underscore writes, but I welcome any discussion, any questions? As I said, this is it's an opportunity for both of us to grow and, uh, and to, uh, challenge whatever limits, uh, that we have. And, and, uh, again, I just, it's been just a pleasure to, to meet you and to speak with you. And I hope to continue the conversation at some point.

00:29:00 Speaker 6: Absolutely.

00:29:01 Sana: I would love to have you back. And listeners, all the links will be there in the show notes. So find all of that attached along with this episode on whichever platform you're tuning into the mindful living right now. And yes, Tom, thank you so much. I would love to have you back on my other shows as well. And because there is so much, so much to explore.

00:29:22 Speaker 6: There is so much.

00:29:23 Tom Cladis: And I would love to just, just whenever you whenever you need a guest or whenever you'd like to, I would love to continue conversation. Thirty minutes was just not enough time. But, uh, yeah, it was great. Thank you so much.

00:29:38 Speaker 6: Thank you.

00:29:38 Sana: Thank you, John, and thank you to all the listeners for being such a wonderful part of the Mindful Living podcast community. And if you feel that this conversation was worth giving a listen to, do share this episode with your loved ones, your friends, your colleagues, with everyone whom you know and do. Follow the Mindful Living Podcast on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you are tuning in. But thank you for being here. I'm Sana and I will be back soon with another episode. Thank you so much.

00:30:08 Tom Cladis: Thank you Sana.