Hello, hello, and welcome to the Borealis

experience. I'm your host Aurora. And I'm very happy and

excited to have Michael Koplow. With me today, it is an honor to

have him here because I was able to see what his mission is all

about what he's trying to make people aware of. And I just, I'm

just so very touched about what Michael is doing, it is very

important work, we will dive into what Michael is doing in a

second here. But to start with, I want to remind you that yeah,

we're all in this together, we're going through intense

stuff at the moment, and it is not fun. It is not fun. There's

lots of uncertainty, lots of pain, lots of unvoluntary change

that is being forced upon us. And before COVID, there was

people struggling already. So think about what COVID Now

amplified and more pain it brought in. I must say, though,

that COVID also brought a lot of beauty and like extraordinary

people out, you know, there's people who are under pressure

fooled, and just go into fetal position and are numb. And

there's other people who rise up to the challenges and see that

they have something inside of them, to support others to give

others hope. And I want to say I don't really know Michael yet, I

will get to know him a little better. But he is one of those

warriors who during COVID times was able to create something

that brings incredible value to our society. So welcome to the

show. I'm honored to be speaking to you today, Michael, if you

would like to Yeah, introduce yourself a little bit and share

your story with us. The more you go into detail, the better it

is, of course, but you stay in your comfort zone. Yeah, I would

love to know, what led you to this beautiful mission that you

are pursuing today.

Well, first of all, thank you for your beautiful introduction.

I appreciate that. And yeah, I can appreciate you highlighting

a little bit more extreme of difficult times for people post

COVID. Right. Obviously, everybody's going through

something that's kind of a natural human experience prior

to COVID. But yeah, I think the like how you worded it, right,

the the aptitude the level, it's definitely increased. So insane,

that my experience has actually kind of, I want to say, you

know, almost exploded since COVID, in a positive way. My

spiritual journey has very opened up, my spiritual journey

has started through addiction. I'm a recovering alcoholic

addict myself. And I first walked through the doors of

recovery in 2008. And had a three years of sobriety got away

from it, and continued to back to that old lifestyle of

drinking and using and everything that comes with it

right ultimately, ultimately pain for me and everybody around

me, right watching. And then through enough pain, you know,

walking back through the doors again of recovery and through a

spiritual process. You know, getting well I use the word

spiritually fit. And, and for a number of years. And, you know,

part of my story is getting away from it again, and returning to

the drink and the drug and to simplify me returning to that

drinking the drug. There's a spiritual walk that was

presented to me through a process of the 12 steps that

gave me a foundation and as we live human beings, there's a

fulfillment I think that we all seek, not just with addicts and

alcoholics And that fulfillment has started being filled in

recovery right and however you want to word it, whether you use

God higher power source the universe, something bigger than

me, right creator that had filled the void. But it's a

daily thing, right and the shiny things of the world would grab

my attention, money, material stuff, relationships. And that's

where I would steer off. So I've mentioned twice going back to

the drink and the drug life got good. And I really got separated

from my true self and got caught up in the worldly things. And

and that was had been my downfall so insane that by no

reason, am I saying there's nothing wrong with just with

succeeding in life, having nice things being successful

financially materialistically all that there's nothing wrong

with that. Don't get me wrong, I don't want to be a cop out of

not saying to be successful in life, but it's what my motives

are behind it, right? What is really going on here, right? So,

you know, I talked about some obsessions of you know, car

money, even physical, you know, I was addicted to the gym and

would get into trying to think of a better word, but I guess

they're just gonna say like stereos steroids and, and, you

know, those, those enhancements a artificial enhancements, is

trying to fill this inner void, right. So there's nothing wrong

with working out in the gym and being healthy, right? So they're

wrong with having a nice car. It's nothing wrong with having a

nice relationship. There's nothing wrong with being

financially secure. But what I found out as a common

denominator is we tend to go after those things in extreme we

all know the disease of more, right? I need more, it's never

enough, right? I have this vision if I have that, I'll be

happy, right? And, and I strive and I strive and I grind it out,

and I'm manipulating and maybe even lying, and so me, I can't

keep doing that stuff. Eventually, I'm gonna drink

because I burn out inside I self hatred might be extreme, but I

like the term. I'm an egomaniac with an inferiority complex

problem. So I'm trying to build this ego, right? I'm trying to

build this outside stuff, but inside the more I do that, the

more though I feel about myself, right, the low self esteem the,

the just the insecurities pile up and the self worth pile up.

So insane all that I'm trying to relate to, you know, addicts and

alcoholics because that seems to be a common denominator. I think

as human beings we all can relate to that but I find the

experience of alcoholics and addicts it's usually that's an

extreme level right? It's just it's there's no balance right?

It's just all or nothing and and so you know, this last couple

years my foundation of spiritual way of living is you know, it's

always been recovery you know, there's spiritual principles

that I practice and and I grow from that right but it's a daily

thing and something like I like to try to simplify for people

it's like you know, I've had this concept of you know, I've

been sober for a few years and I've sponsored people and I've

done this and I've done that you know, putting on step groups and

I've done all this stuff and I almost say that I've kind of

I've gained a spiritual bankroll you know, I look at our good

I've done in the last year and a half let Mikey little Mikey you

know, 10 do himself for a bit right, you know, selfish and

we're all selfish but like I said, it can get to extreme

levels as an addict and alcoholic and so I start to feel

those selfish needs are what I think I need and not to get away

from what I was saying. Yeah, kind of bankrolling this you

know, I've done all this stuff. So I for me, I have to say, What

am I doing today for my spiritual well being right? It's

a daily thing for me. So this may sound extreme, but I tell

myself it doesn't matter what I did. Yes. Doesn't matter how

connected I was with my higher self, my source I did use the

word God. But whatever resonates for you, doesn't matter how

connected I was, what I was doing to help others. I tell

myself doesn't matter what yesterday it's what am I doing

today? Right So, I think that kind of glaze over the gist of

kind of my life prior in the middle. Today, it's kind of,

there's all or nothing, right? I use this analogy is like, you

know, my spiritual journey I had this long leash for a while

where I could, you know, steer off and I've mentioned, you

know, the shiny stuff, you know, getting away into self centered

stuff, you know, whether I'm lying or, or just doing things

that are crossing that internal boundary and other people's

boundaries, right? It's that leaves for me today, it's so

tight, like I can't afford to steer off. So, you know, a lot

of people we have grace, right. And I mean, I certainly have a

level of grace and human, I'm not perfect, but it's very

tightened up. So I'm very focused of my recovery, my

spiritual way of linear living, it's really, it's really all or

nothing. So I gotta be all in today. For me. I'm certainly not

speaking for everybody in recovery. Everybody has their

own journey. So it's kind of cool, you know, to get into

where I'm at today, if someone is to ask, you know, what's

different for you to you know, you mentioned about being sober

before. What's different? You know, there's a lot of people

are skeptical, I had years of sobriety before. So it doesn't

really matter what I say to a lot of people, it's, I have to

show them. But if somebody is to ask me what is different, I have

a deeper surrender. I have an effortless more of an effortless

way about my life, I'm more present. And careful with

somebody new in recovery, and St. Effortless because there is

things we need to do.

You build this foundation. So I feel through that process that

I've gone through, I do have that foundations built a little

bit better than it was when I first walked into recovery. So

my way of life is a little bit more effortlessly, and I watch

things as they come, right. So things come to me a little bit

more, I'm able to be more present and separate myself from

those selfish attitudes or you know, needs or wants, or the

things I shared or better do this, and I better do that. I'm

more. Okay, today with me. And so when I say that, you know,

I'm involved in recovery. You know, one of my main goals of

being in recovery is to help the other suffering alcoholic

addict, right. As I've been been helped by so many, like,

amazingly, I could, you know, fill an hour easily of what

people have done for me and supported me, right, like it's

got to be highlighted. So this is just kind of given back,

right. It's not really about me in a way. Because I've been so

freely given. So insane that. Yeah, just through some events,

I was able to, I had an opportunity to do some outreach

work for an organization in my town. It's actually a local

organization in the Fraser Valley, but there's branches.

And I think I'm okay saying PCRs. So Pacific Community

Resource Center, and they offer all kinds of things like

counseling and low income housing programs, around like

the homeless and and drug addiction. But we did this. And

then I was involved in doing outreach. That was what I was

attracted in helping them doing this outreach in the homeless

aspect that we have, which has grown I think everywhere,

definitely in the Fraser Valley, definitely in my community. So

I've reached out to them and just connecting with the people

on the streets with the mode of if there's any chance of helping

anybody, right. So in doing that, they came to me PCRs and

today we're doing a project about getting awareness. We're

all aware of the the the addiction pandemic, the opioid

crisis, the overdose crisis on the street level, we all can see

it daily, right. But there's been a spike, post COVID behind

closed doors and overdoses. So I did do a three video series. One

was just kind of a trailer of what we were getting at. So the

second video was to paramedics that showed their story of going

into homes where overdoses has happened, right. And we're

targeting the 25 to 45 year old male aspect, which I fit in

because although I was close to being on the street, I'm

fortunate enough where I've always had a roof over my head

for the most part. So I fit that category right as the attic

somewhat functioning, you know, I'm still hanging on to my job

by strings at the end. And so we targeted that category. And so

with the paramedics did a video on it that video. And I'm

definitely getting better at it but very video shy, and there's

a lot of root insecurities that stem right from a child right

fear of what people think of me fear of not being liked fear of

failing and not to get off track. But I'm well aware of

that stuff today through inventories and have processes,

right, check that and challenge that stuff to be right. But

anyway, back to the fear of being on video. Yeah, I was a

little nervous about it. But it went well. And how did why did

it go? Well, from my point, because I just suited up and

showed up, right? There's, there's, I just gotta be honest,

right? open minded and willing, right. And so we did this video,

and the local paper did an article on it. And it got a

little bit of buzz in the community. And I got a lot of

positive feedback. And, and I enjoyed the process, I enjoyed

the experience. So in saying that probably about there is

from when we recorded the video to where it actually went out to

the public was probably about a three month span. So I had some

time with it. And probably about a month after the video was like

released into the public forum like YouTube and the paper

editor pro sets, like I mentioned before, I have a

routine idea in the mornings ready to do some readings and

some meditating. And this thought come to my mind kind of

creating a show of highlighting the positive aspect of recovery.

And I know of a program that's out there and I watch it that

the root of it is a positive thing for sure I can never take

that way away from it. But it really focuses on the the

negativity of an addict alcoholic. And that's kind of

the whole show showing this part. And there's maybe five

minutes of, you know, coming together and trying to help this

addict and then you know, the credits at the end of the show,

you know that you kind of see that they make it or did they

not make it right, and there's very little of the positive end

of it. And, and other than that, I haven't seen a lot of stuff

focusing on the positive rate, we all know the negative, like,

every which way and it touches everybody lives, right. So this

concept, and then, you know, I have patterns of obsessing about

things, right, and these great ideas. And so after a day of

kind of excited about this idea, and maybe sharing it with a few

people that are close to me, I just kind of let it be, you

know, might Yeah, right, you're gonna make a TV show? Yeah,

you're gonna make a TV show and kind of chuckled about it. And I

let it be. And then, you know, a week or so I continued to get

these nudges, I started writing things down. Like, you know, how

I would lay it out some questions of, you know, what is

it about? Right, and, you know, really briefly, you know, some

of those questions, you know, what is what would it be about?

You know, why did I decide to make the show? What is it mean,

to me personally? Who is the show intended for? Why is it

important for a show to be made like this, right? And what is my

goal of making a show and so it's neat to see these things

kind of come together because I believe they are kind of

divinely, you know, guided right, and this intuition that I

think many of us can relate to right when we get connected get

awake. So that was cool. And I shared it with a few people and

I got some polite smiles great idea. Great idea. And once

again, it was like yeah, you know, and part of me is like,

means the mainstream TV as far as our as far as I believe that

only he's going to show something like that right? You

don't see spirituality talk of God or a higher power you don't

see that stuff. And so I just kind of let it be again. And

then I was needed some more so I shot it out to a few contacts

like the PCRs and couple people that I knew of it do filming

right for their profession, just kind of some small time stuff,

right and some other people that I thought might be interested

and got positive feedback and ultimately just came down when

you'd need some funds to get something like this going right

and, and I can I can support that at this moment. You know,

raising the family and just with the cost of living today, right?

So just kind of put it on the back burner again. And But a

month later, a friend of mine has been A friend of mine for

years, but we haven't been really close lately.

He's not in recovery. But he's on a spiritual journey himself

too, right? Pretty awake and connected. And so he reached

back to me, and he's like, Dude, he's like, I keep getting nudged

about this nanny got something here, right. And this is just be

such a positive thing for the times. And so he goes, I'd be

willing to put a promo video with you together and just

highlight the motive behind this, the ideas and assuming

it's like a GoFundMe page up and just see what we can do. So

yeah, we launched that the day you and me connected. And, you

know, we're over halfway, we wrote down a budget, what we

thought and while that budget is is I mean, for me, being in

recovery, in that there's no money motivation behind it

recovery, once you mix my business, my experience, and I

know we have a whole professional field and the level

and that's not my experience, and I'm not knocking it, I know

nothing about it very little about it. But in my experience,

you can't mix money with recovery. It just, it just

doesn't work. That's my experience. So I'm not saying,

you know, there's lots of teachers and stuff like that out

there. I just know, for me, I think if I start mixing those

two together, I'm in trouble. So it's not about money for me, my

partner involved in the project. I mean, he, I feel and he said

to like, you know, like, I do this as a job, right. So it's

for production costs travel. And I'd like to compensate the

guests a little bit right. For their time, and, you know, maybe

meals for the day and stuff like that. So that's kind of where we

got that budget from people might be asking, Where's this

number coming from? Why, right. And so it's something I really

want to highlight, you know, that's where that number is

coming from, right? There's some rental costs too, because he

doesn't have everything we need, as in the sense of multiple mics

and stuff like that. So we've, we've sat down, we've like, you

know, put some thought to this. Right. Um, it's not completely

being winged. But yeah, so it's, I've gotten a lot of positive

feedback. And like I said, we're kind of halfway there on the

budget. Yeah, I'll just kind of keep riding the wave. So I think

I'll probably take a break from talking now and let you share a

little bit

i Yeah, this is crazy. I mean, I knew this conversation was gonna

be good but you you're really blowing me away and thank you

just from an outsider's perspective, like I can see

clear as day why you had to keep going through suffering and pain

and getting yourself out of it again, because I see you I feel

your energy as a leader and as a healer. And as someone who's

going to bridge the gap and you know, help people understand

addiction better people who are you know, not not close in

contact with addiction, but maybe you know, I feel in every

family there is an addict or someone who wants to break out

of the system and be a pioneer. And you understand these

precious beings better. And what I also see in you is that you

can be a fierce leader of youngsters. So not only people

who are struggling already and helping them to recover but the

way you speak you are so like open and honest with your stuff

with your dark side that most people who never went through

intense pain or addiction they don't have that access to those

feelings and and you are so authentic and real with your

pain that I was really close to be crying here. I know that

we'll be able like that tool can be used to help people who are

you know, maybe still before the state of drifting off you know,

they still have a decision to make or am I go with the big

money and the bling bling or want to go into into depth and

do I want to get to know myself better before I make any

decisions in so I can see all this in you. It is just a matter

of time for you to see it yourself. And I'm, I'm so

excited about Yeah, the ideas that you have there. And I feel

it's, it's time like, don't wait, don't waste any time and

don't self doubt. Don't wait for too much approval from the

outside. You just need a small wolf pack that you can rely on.

And then and then go ahead because your energy is needed

out there. And yeah, it's it's very precious what you shared

already with us. I have one question. When it comes to

addiction, like, or let's just speak about your your

experience, because you said it is your self worth it is your,

your, like you have a complex not being seen and understood or

not feeling worthy. Do you sometimes go back and time and

try to rewrite your story like to know that? Yes, you went

through the pain back then you made conclusions about yourself

that are not correct anymore? And how to let those go. How to

redefine yourself. Are you like, can you relate?

Oh, yeah. 100%? Yeah, I can answer that question. Beautiful

question. By the way. I touched it briefly in the sense of I can

go back obviously, being at that young age, then not

understanding what's going on. But I can look back. And one of

the great things about a recovery process is doing I call

it an inventory, right. So we were diving deep, and it's not

so much. I mean, you've got to start by looking at the things

that we've done the way we've reacted to things and the way

we've acted out. That's the surface stuff, right? And And

for sure, we have to start there. But then it's like

getting under it right. And so through some inventory work and

from finally turning in, and I'll say this not to get off to

answering your question, but I think it's helpful for others, a

huge turning point in my life. And I think this is for any

human being not just an alcoholic or addict. turning

point for me, I'm getting shivers. As I say this my whole

life for most of my youth life, I was pointing my finger out

there, you know, if that changed, I'd be better whether

it's the relationship, the boss, I had more money, a new place to

live, if that guy pissed off and left me alone, and on and on.

And I did that for 30 years. So a huge turning point for me, was

looking inside, right, and really grasping the concept of

nothing outside of me needs to change, I need to change. My

perception needs to change, I have a disease, let's start to

mind. And then maybe many people can relate to this, let's say

disease, because I mean, I was in need of a psychic change.

Right? So to go back to asking your beautiful question, I can

look back through this process of inventory work. And remember

when I was five and six years old, and you know, being so self

conscious of my looks and what people thought of me, and I know

I mentioned this stuff, so just bear with me. Fear of failing

and fear of what people thought of me I was there's so many

fears of what everybody was thinking and, you know, a

professional level can relate that stuff, like social anxiety

and stuff like that. So I'm just going to try to simplify it for

me out was easy for me to understand. And that stuff just

grew, right. It just grew. I believe that. And I'm not

putting blame on anybody because everybody goes through this

stuff. But you know, when somebody said, Mike, you're

chubby, I mean, I, I that goes grew in me right? Or, you know,

anything negative. Like, here's a simple way of saying it. You

know, there was a time in my life where I could spit off 1000

insults or at least what I precepted to be insults I ban

how many compliments can i lay out? Do you think I never got

compliments? Of course I did. Maybe even more. But I wasn't I

didn't believe them. Believe the insults I believe. I believe the

negative stuff and half of that negative stuff. You know when I

say 1000 You know insults or situations. Half of them

probably I created them in My head just with assumptions and

thinking that's what people are meaning and stuff like that,

right? So I don't want to get too deep in that. But I hope

that kind of makes sense. So getting back, that stuff just

grew. So, for me, I don't know if that stuff would have ever

have changed if I didn't walk through the days are through the

doors of recovery. And then in recovery, I was forced to wake

up, what do I mean by waking up or one of the first levels of

waking up? Because I started watching myself, right? I

started watching the thoughts. And that's not real. That's not

true. So today, those stuff may still pop up. Right? He said,

when I talk about meditating or meditating, for me, it certainly

isn't sitting in a lotus position with no thoughts for

three hours at a meditating for me, meditating and sitting

upright, somewhat comfortably, and in focusing on breathing,

but watching those thoughts, and 90% of them are stories. Not

real.

Yeah, yeah. For me, meditation is the same. It's, it started

with being a torture. Like, are you kidding me? Like everybody

is so calm and peaceful here. And I just want things apart and

run out. And to sit with that energy to sit with with what is

constantly with you anyways, and now you're becoming aware of it

is so shitty painful. It is so crazy. But yeah, kudos to you.

We are still doing it. Yeah, we're still meditating and

sitting through it. And it's, it's yeah, that's just practice.

Practice,

not getting discouraged. So when I hear a story like that, you

relating to the noise at the beginning, and, and then

comparing yourself to others. I so relate to that. Right. And I

think that comparing myself in this expectation, you know, that

stuff, I've got to challenge that stuff.

A Yeah, yeah, totally. And, and you haven't gone through that

pain now. You can automatically relate to me and feel empathy,

right? You attracted me into your life, this is why we're

sitting here, and you will do so many more people. And I hope

that you can see also, that addiction and recovery is

awesome, like to focus on and is really needed. But you can even

go beyond and help people who struggle with burnout and

depression. And people who just went through divorce and are

going crazy in their minds, right? You can help so many

people, but you had to go through that pain first.

Unfortunately, fortunately, to be able to relate now and to be

able to forgive yourself and and yet live your purpose. It's it's

very, like tough probably at the beginning to see oh shit, I've

been a victim for my whole life. And I'm actually supposed to

leader. But it's also incredibly empowering and necessary for

guys like you to step out there and to become the leaders

because what my mission of my podcast is here is to put the

spotlight on to heart driven leaders away from from ego

driven pneus and, you know, money driven. And this money is

good money will be your outcome and your reward and everything.

But it should never be like your main focus and for you it is

not. So you have kids, you said you have two sons. Is that

correct? Yes.

Okay, how are ya? I four total boys, two girls.

Oh, cool. Very, very cool. Yeah, I hope I hope. Yeah, you guys

have an awesome time together and they are proud of you. Mike

question is having kids, I don't have kids. But if I was

comparing myself to you, you went through pain through

struggle. You're building yourself up now you're creating

something beautiful. In your kiddos, do you see that you

sometimes like try to overly protect them from going onto

that path? Or is it easy to trust because you see that you

can help them and guide them into the right direction? How is

it for you as a parent to not like project your experience

onto them? First of all, and second, if you were to see that

they have similar tendencies, how can you you help them? Like

how can you give them the tools that maybe you didn't have? Back

then?

Wow, this is this question is awesome. Um, how much time do I

have? Like, I don't want to kind of ramble on, I'm gonna get to

kind of have like about five minutes or we gotta close here,

I will wave at you getting close. Yep.

And why I say that it's I don't believe in coincidences, I'm

actually having a learning lesson as a parent, and I'm kind

of coming out of something. And so, you know, being in recovery,

having a spiritual journey, getting a week and just, once

again, really functioning in society as being a human being

on, you know, the worldly level on a spiritual level, right. So

I've caught myself, basically kind of parenting my children.

And this is something just coming out of so we had a couple

years of this a parenting my children as I was turning me. So

you know, nothing wrong. Like we have some pretty awesome

conversations, you know, I have a 16 year old and a 13 year old

and we can have some pretty deep conversations. But what finally

they taught me this, it was them actually pointing it out. But

what I caught myself doing is, I was pairing trying to parent

myself, right? So once again, having balanced right, so

there's no problem, you know, with teaching them or getting

them awareness about addiction. And, you know, this, this is

life of trying to fulfill things with wrong motives. And, and,

you know, you're trying to show them to be genuinely a good

human being. But I was coming at it as if I was parenting myself,

and something hit me one day, were getting back into that

balance level of you know, they're their own personalities,

they're their own people, and you know, anybody with children

system for a half hour and go, Wow, where did that come from?

Right? Whether they're a toddler or an 18 year old, and

everything in between? Yeah, they've, you know, physically

come from from a woman and you know, and father, but they're

their own thing, hey, they're their own beans. And so when I

say balance, I share my story, and I'll share my mistakes, and

hopefully, they don't do them. But the implementation I was

parenting myself, so, you know, being all over the making sure

that they're not going to go in any little Avenue what I did

when I was a youth, I've stepped back from that, and letting more

than be, you know, they're gonna make their mistakes. They're

gonna go through their trials and tribulations, right? And of

course, insane that, you know, there's the balance. Obviously,

I'm not neglecting, neglecting my children are not part of

their life. But I'm also not over them and you know,

smothering them the word you use, right? It's letting them

find their way. Right. And, you know, maybe my way or my way I

think they should be isn't their way. Right. So hopefully, I

didn't go off too much there. But I love that question.

Hopefully, I answered your question.

No, no, you did. Like it's, it's very interesting how every

father would answer this question differently. And I love

what you say, like we can all learn from this. I think as as a

father, it's probably hardest, like you say, they come from you

physically. So you kind of assume oh, yeah, they must be

like me. Yeah. But then to step back and to know like, no, they

actually their own personality, but they can still learn from

you so much. Especially if you're leading by example.

Right? That's the most powerful thing perfect. Yeah, it's it's

the only thing it's the only thing because everything that a

parent is trying to teach a child and not living at the same

time is for the garbage I believe. And it's it's very

inspiring how you approach it and how open minded you are

about it. And yeah, very evolved. I just, I just love

that so much. Is there anything else we would like to add to

this episode? Or did we cover everything? I want to make sure

to put the links to your videos, the link to your Facebook page,

into the show notes? Yeah. How else can people reach you? How

else can we make sure that more people hear about your

Send. Yeah, I'm pretty active on Facebook, I can shoot you my

email, I'll message that to you later. Also shoot you the other

video I did for that PCRs because I think a very high a

good point in that video, as we were really shedding light on

what the family member or the friend who's watching an addict,

you know, kill themselves through addiction? What are some

of their options? How can they approach it? And I think that's

powerful for people. So I'm going to send you that video

too. And can I can I say something real real quick. And

being in the recovery world, or whatever you want to call it?

Community, one thing that continuously comes up and I want

to share people always talk about shame and guilt and they

go shame and guilt you know, I'm, I feel so much shame and

guilt and you can feel that, you know, just as a regular human

being or, you know, sober and we all can relate, you know, we

have this mindset Yeah, I feel guilty or I feel shameful and,

and something I want to pass on to people out in, you know,

anybody but definitely the people in recovery, because

shame and guilt comes up so much because it people's pasts is

something that I've learned to process because I've been that

person, for example, that's driven, you know, I'm driving

downtown, and I see something that triggers me. And I think

back of something I'd done, that was not very good, right? And

I'd sit there and I just pull it in, and that's who I am. And

sometimes I would curse at myself and say, you effing

loser, Mike and, and just believe that, right? So I've

come today to learn to separate healthy guilt. This is the way I

describe it. Maybe on a professional level. This doesn't

make sense. But the way I describe it as I've come to

differentiate healthy guilt from feeling shameful. So I say that

there's healthy guilt, unhealthy guilt is good. So shameful is

that example, I'm driving down the road, I think of something

that I did in the past. And I'm believing it and I'm telling

myself on a loser, this and that, well, that's just that's

just destroying my self esteem and confidence. Right? And that

is such a pattern and addiction, right? Whereas healthy guilt,

that same situation comes up, then I can go Yeah, I did that.

Oh, I clean that up I made that amends. Or are the ultimate is

is that don't do that today. I'm not that person. I've made an

amends. I'm not doing those things today. That is not who I

am. So I challenge that. Right. Because a lot of us can get

trapped in that and believing that's who we are. And through a

process. You know, like I mentioned the inventory and a

spiritual awakening, we can start challenging that stuff.

And it's not an overnight thing, right. So it's like, I don't do

that stuff, that it's not who I am. I've made amends for things,

and I've cleaned things up. And thank you very much. So healthy

guilt and shame fulness there's a difference.

That is like you just threw the most valuable tool at us that we

can all use. Thank you. Yeah, like, we all have done stuff in

the past. That is something that we can use because otherwise

it's like a vicious cycle. I feel shame. And then I go back

to the drinking go back to the city behavior because I don't

want to feel that shame. And now what you just gave us is to

break up that vicious cycle and to be accountable. Yeah, to

learn from the mistake, but not to to live in this poisonous

this poisonous shame feelings anymore. That kind of keep us in

that very low energy. So incredible ending. Wow, thank

you so much for for Yeah, pulling that out of your your

toolbox. Very valuable. And yeah, from the bottom of my

heart. Thank you so much for making the time today for

pouring your heart out for making us see you. Your energy

is incredible. And I'm just personally very, very happy that

we can thank you so

much for I really appreciate this opportunity. And I was a

little skeptical at the beginning of it when you first

talked about it. And you blown you blown me away with you and

your motive and your intent. And I'm just so grateful. You're a

beautiful soul like just absolutely. So I thank you so

much. Yeah, Kim like

Thank you. Well, I really hope you enjoyed this interview. I

totally enjoyed the conversation. And yeah, I will

Make sure to put the video links into the show notes. You can

contact Mike on Facebook or if you have any questions, any

comments, never hesitate and shoot me a message on Aurora

Eggert, my Facebook page. Also a note, if you are struggling

right now, if you feel like you need to talk about your stuff,

and counseling and visiting a psychotherapist is not really

necessary at the moment you just need someone to talk to need

someone to guide you on your path, then please contact me and

ask me to send you my calendar link so that we can schedule a

60 minute intro call where I can figure out if I can help you

with stuff that you're going through right now. I'm a love

and life coach and would love to assist you whenever you feel

like you need a neutral person to talk to. Alright, take really

good care of yourself and I'll see you down the road. I'll be

out there very soon again. Bye bye