1 00:00:03,010 --> 00:00:06,540 Matt Edmundson: Well, hello and welcome to the e commerce podcast 2 00:00:06,560 --> 00:00:08,860 with me, your host, Matt Edmundson. 3 00:00:09,180 --> 00:00:15,030 Now this is a show that's all about helping you to deliver e commerce well. 4 00:00:15,159 --> 00:00:18,939 And to help us do just that, I'm chatting with my very special 5 00:00:18,940 --> 00:00:20,479 guest today, Ian Hammersley. 6 00:00:21,485 --> 00:00:25,775 From the Hammersley Brothers, from Smart E Business, he's, they've 7 00:00:25,775 --> 00:00:27,645 literally written the book they have. 8 00:00:27,695 --> 00:00:32,225 And we're going to be talking about how to scale e commerce beyond the magic wands. 9 00:00:32,570 --> 00:00:33,890 And quick fixes. 10 00:00:33,960 --> 00:00:34,970 Oh, yes. 11 00:00:35,290 --> 00:00:37,970 But before we get into that, dear listener, let me encourage you, 12 00:00:37,970 --> 00:00:41,020 if you haven't done so already, to sign up to the newsletter on 13 00:00:41,020 --> 00:00:43,410 the e commerce podcast website. 14 00:00:43,720 --> 00:00:45,450 Just head over to ecommercepodcast. 15 00:00:45,480 --> 00:00:45,820 net. 16 00:00:46,140 --> 00:00:48,330 And sign up for it, and we'll send you all the show notes, 17 00:00:48,330 --> 00:00:49,470 links, and all that sort of stuff. 18 00:00:49,890 --> 00:00:51,290 All free all to magically. 19 00:00:51,310 --> 00:00:52,050 It's awesome. 20 00:00:52,100 --> 00:00:53,440 So make sure you do that. 21 00:00:53,910 --> 00:00:57,450 And also let me give a big shout out to today's show sponsor. 22 00:00:57,460 --> 00:00:59,720 You've guessed it e commerce cohort. 23 00:01:00,090 --> 00:01:02,830 If you would like to know more about our monthly mastermind, our 24 00:01:02,830 --> 00:01:06,570 monthly membership do come and find out more e commerce cohort. 25 00:01:06,799 --> 00:01:07,039 com. 26 00:01:07,070 --> 00:01:08,080 All the information is there. 27 00:01:08,140 --> 00:01:09,440 Everything you could possibly want. 28 00:01:09,460 --> 00:01:11,860 Everything you could possibly want to know is all there. 29 00:01:12,030 --> 00:01:12,840 So check it out. 30 00:01:12,880 --> 00:01:13,530 Come join us. 31 00:01:13,530 --> 00:01:15,570 We'd love to see you in there. 32 00:01:15,820 --> 00:01:19,500 And as part of being on the cohort, one of the new features is we live stream 33 00:01:19,800 --> 00:01:24,400 the recording of the podcast into cohort. 34 00:01:24,580 --> 00:01:27,799 So you can come and listen to our live recordings like with amazing 35 00:01:27,799 --> 00:01:32,509 people like Ian, and you can get to ask your questions too, which is. 36 00:01:33,170 --> 00:01:35,980 thAt's just super, super important, isn't it, really, because you want to know, 37 00:01:36,150 --> 00:01:39,070 you want, you've got your questions, so if you're in Cohort, come and ask 38 00:01:39,090 --> 00:01:41,660 those, do join in on the live streams. 39 00:01:41,790 --> 00:01:42,010 Now. 40 00:01:42,950 --> 00:01:46,530 Before we get into the conversation, I was just saying to Ian, actually, before 41 00:01:46,530 --> 00:01:49,510 we hit the record button, that it's great to actually finally get to meet. 42 00:01:49,710 --> 00:01:54,770 He is a fellow e commerce podcaster, uh, the Hammersley Brothers podcast 43 00:01:55,140 --> 00:01:59,830 the e commerce podcast with those guys is definitely worth checking out. 44 00:01:59,850 --> 00:02:04,710 But actually It's it's one of those things where the person that connected 45 00:02:04,710 --> 00:02:09,020 us is actually Oliver Spock from Sweet Analytics, which is fascinating. 46 00:02:09,040 --> 00:02:12,050 Oliver's been on the show he's been in cohort as well. 47 00:02:12,070 --> 00:02:13,010 Legend of a guy. 48 00:02:13,459 --> 00:02:15,030 Thanks for the connection, Oliver. 49 00:02:15,280 --> 00:02:17,689 And if you want to know more about Sweet Analytics, check out sweetanalytics. 50 00:02:18,450 --> 00:02:18,710 com. 51 00:02:18,730 --> 00:02:20,530 It is a great little thing going on there. 52 00:02:20,530 --> 00:02:22,770 In fact, we're playing around with Sweet Analytics on one 53 00:02:22,770 --> 00:02:24,250 of our own e com businesses. 54 00:02:24,720 --> 00:02:27,040 As I read this. 55 00:02:27,130 --> 00:02:28,640 So there you go, check it out. 56 00:02:28,950 --> 00:02:30,280 Now let's talk about Ian. 57 00:02:30,600 --> 00:02:36,010 Ian is a standout entrepreneur, celebrated as a finalist for the Great 58 00:02:36,020 --> 00:02:39,059 British Entrepreneur Awards in 2014. 59 00:02:39,529 --> 00:02:43,439 And with a knack for e commerce, he enthralls global directors of 60 00:02:43,440 --> 00:02:48,960 mammoth online keynote speeches, while his best selling book, The 61 00:02:49,000 --> 00:02:53,970 Ultimate Guide to e commerce growth showcases his seasoned strategies. 62 00:02:54,450 --> 00:02:58,300 Beyond Print, Ian co hosts the Buzzin Hammersley Brothers e commerce 63 00:02:58,550 --> 00:03:03,209 podcast, sharing e commerce gold with thousands worldwide every week. 64 00:03:03,209 --> 00:03:05,820 So if you're an e commerce, go check it out, go subscribe 65 00:03:06,119 --> 00:03:06,989 because it's a great show. 66 00:03:07,029 --> 00:03:08,290 I listen which is important. 67 00:03:08,600 --> 00:03:09,900 Ian, great to have you on the show, man. 68 00:03:09,980 --> 00:03:12,799 Finally we get to have this conversation, so I'm super excited. 69 00:03:12,809 --> 00:03:13,519 Great that you're here. 70 00:03:13,529 --> 00:03:14,149 How are you doing? 71 00:03:15,415 --> 00:03:17,725 Ian Hammersley: hEy Matt, I'm really good. 72 00:03:18,325 --> 00:03:19,015 I'm really good. 73 00:03:19,255 --> 00:03:20,995 I haven't met, you recorded all that. 74 00:03:21,125 --> 00:03:22,775 I thought you did that as an after take. 75 00:03:22,785 --> 00:03:24,815 That's all like a live recording, isn't it? 76 00:03:24,845 --> 00:03:26,555 All your intro, your music. 77 00:03:27,415 --> 00:03:27,844 Matt Edmundson: Yeah, everything. 78 00:03:28,075 --> 00:03:28,555 I'm impressed. 79 00:03:30,245 --> 00:03:32,175 I don't know if I would be here when you hear it back. 80 00:03:32,415 --> 00:03:36,075 But no, we tend to do it all in one take, which is good and it 81 00:03:36,075 --> 00:03:37,335 keeps it all a little bit fresh. 82 00:03:37,715 --> 00:03:38,665 It is easy. 83 00:03:38,825 --> 00:03:39,185 Yeah, 84 00:03:39,355 --> 00:03:39,695 Ian Hammersley: it is easy. 85 00:03:39,755 --> 00:03:41,145 You know what, it's great to be here, Matt. 86 00:03:41,285 --> 00:03:44,385 And like you, I listen to your podcast and we were just saying before. 87 00:03:44,790 --> 00:03:48,200 When I'm pretending to work out at the gym, I put your podcast on. 88 00:03:50,370 --> 00:03:51,370 Is that where you generally 89 00:03:51,370 --> 00:03:51,810 Matt Edmundson: listen to podcasts? 90 00:03:53,895 --> 00:03:55,995 Ian Hammersley: Sit there doing my little walk on the treadmill. 91 00:03:56,085 --> 00:03:58,145 Yeah, listening to your your e commerce. 92 00:03:58,195 --> 00:04:00,325 No, it's great. 93 00:04:00,365 --> 00:04:01,305 It is great to be here. 94 00:04:02,025 --> 00:04:04,055 Yeah, I'm excited to get, let's get going. 95 00:04:04,105 --> 00:04:08,375 A wonderful briefing as well for our podcast, e commerce gold. 96 00:04:08,425 --> 00:04:08,715 That's... 97 00:04:10,845 --> 00:04:12,105 It's two, two old blokes, 98 00:04:16,115 --> 00:04:17,384 Matt Edmundson: two old brothers chatting, that's basically what it is. 99 00:04:17,385 --> 00:04:19,265 Two old blokes chatting about e commerce. 100 00:04:19,785 --> 00:04:24,115 But your, the thing I love about your show is you're in Manchester, right? 101 00:04:24,125 --> 00:04:24,145 Yeah. 102 00:04:24,525 --> 00:04:28,285 And your brother, Mark, he's in New Zealand. 103 00:04:28,495 --> 00:04:29,495 New Zealand, yeah. 104 00:04:29,775 --> 00:04:33,665 So this is this a case of the brothers just, we get on but we don't want 105 00:04:33,665 --> 00:04:34,985 to be anywhere near each other? 106 00:04:35,855 --> 00:04:38,825 Ian Hammersley: hE married a Kiwi, that's what he did, let's face it, if he wasn't, 107 00:04:38,855 --> 00:04:40,275 if he wasn't working with my brother... 108 00:04:40,995 --> 00:04:44,785 Either said bye, when your business partner says, Oh, I'm going to 109 00:04:44,785 --> 00:04:47,315 go and I'm going to move across the other side of the world. 110 00:04:47,845 --> 00:04:49,045 He said, this is a problem. 111 00:04:49,235 --> 00:04:49,525 Yeah. 112 00:04:49,525 --> 00:04:52,145 But we managed to, interestingly, the podcast came about 113 00:04:52,155 --> 00:04:55,145 because we're 12 hours apart. 114 00:04:55,185 --> 00:04:56,785 So he was driving into work. 115 00:04:57,200 --> 00:05:00,500 And I was driving home from work and we would start chatting in the car 116 00:05:00,550 --> 00:05:03,350 about e commerce because of obviously what had happened during the day. 117 00:05:03,750 --> 00:05:05,070 And so it was very natural. 118 00:05:05,230 --> 00:05:06,010 That's what happened. 119 00:05:06,060 --> 00:05:09,410 We ended up just starting to record those conversations and that's where 120 00:05:09,410 --> 00:05:10,910 the podcast came from, which was. 121 00:05:11,850 --> 00:05:14,969 As I say, when you go back to some of the early episodes, 122 00:05:14,969 --> 00:05:16,219 you're like, Oh, dear Lord. 123 00:05:16,249 --> 00:05:18,599 This is very low tech. 124 00:05:20,439 --> 00:05:21,149 This is not good. 125 00:05:21,559 --> 00:05:21,989 Matt Edmundson: Yeah. 126 00:05:21,989 --> 00:05:24,489 It's fair to say that I'm with you, brother. 127 00:05:24,509 --> 00:05:28,199 I, some of our earlier part, we were saying before we hit the record button, 128 00:05:28,199 --> 00:05:31,869 there are people that reach out to us and we do, I'm sure that you're the 129 00:05:31,869 --> 00:05:35,899 same way and you love to hear from the audience and people connect with me 130 00:05:35,899 --> 00:05:39,589 either on Instagram usually or LinkedIn and they say, Hey, listen, love the show. 131 00:05:40,029 --> 00:05:42,549 But every now and again, somebody says to us, Oh I'm loving the show. 132 00:05:42,589 --> 00:05:45,839 I decided to start at episode one and work all my way through 133 00:05:46,389 --> 00:05:48,989 and we're like, I'm really sorry. 134 00:05:53,949 --> 00:05:56,679 Those first few episodes I don't know how you guys did it. 135 00:05:56,719 --> 00:05:58,629 I've not heard your I should probably go back and listen to 136 00:05:58,629 --> 00:06:00,089 your early episodes, but for me. 137 00:06:00,320 --> 00:06:00,989 Please don't. 138 00:06:00,989 --> 00:06:03,889 And what I did was I just literally grabbed a microphone and just 139 00:06:03,899 --> 00:06:05,409 started spouting about e commerce. 140 00:06:05,449 --> 00:06:07,629 Just anything that I knew just came out of my mouth. 141 00:06:07,639 --> 00:06:10,109 There was a little bit of a structure, but nothing more than that. 142 00:06:10,879 --> 00:06:13,909 And I think I got to about episode 19 and I said to the team, I 143 00:06:13,909 --> 00:06:17,119 said, listen, I'm really bored of the sound of my own voice here. 144 00:06:19,209 --> 00:06:22,569 So that's when we made the permanent switch to doing the interview 145 00:06:22,569 --> 00:06:23,989 style podcast, which was great. 146 00:06:24,719 --> 00:06:24,969 Ian Hammersley: Yeah. 147 00:06:26,014 --> 00:06:26,364 It's got better. 148 00:06:26,374 --> 00:06:27,204 Yeah, no, it's funny. 149 00:06:27,654 --> 00:06:30,474 And when when you start doing your podcast and like when, the book we 150 00:06:30,474 --> 00:06:33,034 wrote, obviously, you put in all this effort and you think literally no 151 00:06:33,034 --> 00:06:36,544 one's listening at all, so you don't really know how it's going to develop, 152 00:06:36,574 --> 00:06:41,184 but obviously over time the ramblings of things start to take shape and you 153 00:06:41,184 --> 00:06:42,644 form this sort of structure as you go. 154 00:06:42,694 --> 00:06:45,989 In some respects it's a philosophy of business really, is that, you don't 155 00:06:46,039 --> 00:06:48,129 let perfection get in the way of good. 156 00:06:48,569 --> 00:06:53,539 And people in e commerce, bringing it back to e commerce, who who try 157 00:06:53,549 --> 00:06:58,049 to get everything absolutely perfect, sit themselves in a, in a dark room 158 00:06:58,049 --> 00:07:01,369 somewhere for six months and then emerge thinking they've got it cracked and 159 00:07:01,369 --> 00:07:05,549 obviously the market's moved on and how e commerce works, it's almost like 160 00:07:05,559 --> 00:07:07,519 everything's in beta, you're testing. 161 00:07:07,899 --> 00:07:11,004 All the time and eventually, you get better and it's the 162 00:07:11,004 --> 00:07:11,914 same thing with everything. 163 00:07:12,324 --> 00:07:14,314 The podcast and any business really. 164 00:07:15,304 --> 00:07:16,594 Matt Edmundson: That's such a good way of putting it. 165 00:07:16,594 --> 00:07:17,454 Always in beta. 166 00:07:17,484 --> 00:07:20,044 E commerce is always in beta and I like that. 167 00:07:20,124 --> 00:07:24,644 I might steal that, if I do, I'll try and remember to give you the credit. 168 00:07:24,674 --> 00:07:30,084 But e commerce is always in beta and it, and you're right, we've all always got 169 00:07:30,094 --> 00:07:35,774 to Learning, always got to be improving, always got to be iterating, and that 170 00:07:35,784 --> 00:07:40,884 desire for everything to be just bang on perfect before you do something 171 00:07:41,364 --> 00:07:45,224 is quite a common desire, I think especially with people starting up, right? 172 00:07:45,284 --> 00:07:49,534 If they're starting out or if they're re platforming their website, everything has 173 00:07:49,534 --> 00:07:53,294 to be just so before they do it and it, I think you're right, I think by the time 174 00:07:53,294 --> 00:07:54,854 you've launched that perfect website, it's 175 00:07:54,854 --> 00:07:55,624 Ian Hammersley: out of date, right? 176 00:07:56,654 --> 00:07:57,034 Yeah. 177 00:07:57,264 --> 00:08:02,734 And and I think it's a danger throughout every phase of e commerce, right 178 00:08:02,734 --> 00:08:06,614 from the, from starting, but also the ones that are doing, much bigger, 20, 179 00:08:06,664 --> 00:08:11,124 20, 30 million plus, and it's like the danger of shiny distractions. 180 00:08:11,834 --> 00:08:15,594 And I think that, that is the fundamental thing that. 181 00:08:16,949 --> 00:08:20,299 Probably I've spent the most, I've been working in e commerce now for over 20 182 00:08:20,309 --> 00:08:25,429 years and the thing that, that I've focused on or seen is how you navigate 183 00:08:25,429 --> 00:08:29,239 through the shiny distractions of e commerce, because our industry is like... 184 00:08:30,094 --> 00:08:34,234 It's not like an accountancy industry or, a lawyer, solicitors 185 00:08:34,234 --> 00:08:37,564 where, it's been practicing for hundreds and hundreds of years. 186 00:08:37,634 --> 00:08:40,144 E commerce is literally embryonic. 187 00:08:40,254 --> 00:08:45,134 And so this, and it's moving so fast, it's like doggy years, and so if, if 188 00:08:45,134 --> 00:08:48,884 you spend six months doing something on your e commerce site, you're, and you 189 00:08:48,894 --> 00:08:50,084 think it's going to move the needle. 190 00:08:50,659 --> 00:08:53,689 And you get it wrong, it doesn't, you've like, all your competitors 191 00:08:53,689 --> 00:08:55,619 have just accelerated ahead. 192 00:08:55,629 --> 00:09:00,929 So I think it's knowing, because there's so much you can do and there's so many 193 00:09:00,949 --> 00:09:04,649 things that you can plug in and so many things you can focus on, Average 194 00:09:04,649 --> 00:09:08,999 Order Value, Lifetime Customer Value, Widget Plugins, all sorts of new tech, 195 00:09:09,159 --> 00:09:11,909 and you're like, what and how do I do? 196 00:09:11,999 --> 00:09:16,674 And it's knowing what to do and having a framework for taking That 197 00:09:16,674 --> 00:09:20,714 emotional, emotion out of it and coming up with the rationale to 198 00:09:21,744 --> 00:09:24,484 actually, have a clear, concise path. 199 00:09:24,764 --> 00:09:29,844 And, I think that's generally what most people will struggle with, is that scatter 200 00:09:29,854 --> 00:09:33,444 gun approach that's all over the place and it's I just, I know what I need to 201 00:09:33,444 --> 00:09:36,174 do, but I don't know what order I need to do it in, because if I get it wrong... 202 00:09:36,734 --> 00:09:40,514 A could be loads of money, but also it's time is the biggest worry, isn't it? 203 00:09:40,654 --> 00:09:41,044 I think. 204 00:09:41,504 --> 00:09:41,744 Yeah. 205 00:09:41,744 --> 00:09:42,204 Matt Edmundson: You lose. 206 00:09:42,874 --> 00:09:43,864 Yeah, you're right. 207 00:09:43,904 --> 00:09:47,604 It's I like the analogy with the accountancy company because they, like 208 00:09:47,604 --> 00:09:51,224 you say, they've had years, centuries to perfect in effect what they're doing. 209 00:09:51,224 --> 00:09:53,444 They've got software to help them now, but in effect it's a 210 00:09:53,444 --> 00:09:54,784 ledger with two columns, right? 211 00:09:55,254 --> 00:09:57,544 So it's what they, I did accountancy at university. 212 00:09:57,544 --> 00:09:58,634 The rules haven't changed. 213 00:09:58,684 --> 00:10:00,174 It's just, it is what it is, 214 00:10:00,689 --> 00:10:04,389 Ian Hammersley: we don't want to offend any accountancy firms, do we, but no, 215 00:10:05,009 --> 00:10:09,269 there's no sort of rule book for how you run your e commerce store really as 216 00:10:09,269 --> 00:10:12,239 opposed to, the ways that the accountancy firms are structured, isn't it? 217 00:10:12,239 --> 00:10:15,929 And it's, yeah, and it's just, there's an overwhelming danger 218 00:10:16,119 --> 00:10:18,059 to, to do the wrong thing next. 219 00:10:18,799 --> 00:10:22,409 And, and, and I think the other thing that people find, I think, is to 220 00:10:22,409 --> 00:10:23,799 navigate your way through all of that. 221 00:10:26,569 --> 00:10:26,939 BS, really. 222 00:10:26,939 --> 00:10:30,049 Take the example I always give, take something like website speed. 223 00:10:30,749 --> 00:10:35,099 peOple think, or often, people hear people say, website speed, you've got to make 224 00:10:35,099 --> 00:10:38,679 it faster you've got to make the website faster and then people will repeat, it's 225 00:10:38,679 --> 00:10:41,279 going to, it's going to, it's going to really improve your conversion rate. 226 00:10:41,669 --> 00:10:42,774 And it's will it? 227 00:10:42,934 --> 00:10:46,874 Let's think about it logically, like if you've got a site that's loading 228 00:10:46,884 --> 00:10:51,504 at I don't know, three seconds, on average, like a three second page load, 229 00:10:51,514 --> 00:10:53,764 which is, like pretty, pretty average. 230 00:10:53,794 --> 00:10:56,464 And if you, if you make a website faster, is it going to magically pay? 231 00:10:56,874 --> 00:10:57,694 Make people buy. 232 00:10:57,704 --> 00:11:01,514 It's if you put a self service checkout, like a fast service, like 233 00:11:01,544 --> 00:11:05,054 Tesco checkout in a high end jewelry store, on the high street would 234 00:11:05,054 --> 00:11:06,794 that magically make people buy? 235 00:11:06,814 --> 00:11:10,974 No, of course it wouldn't, but it's it's these are the sort of things that are 236 00:11:11,094 --> 00:11:16,314 spouted out in our industry and people go, Oh, it's gonna, there's this magic. 237 00:11:16,634 --> 00:11:20,474 It's a thing that's going to make people buy and I think it's a lot of 238 00:11:20,474 --> 00:11:25,564 the work that I do with my brother is actually taking it right back down 239 00:11:25,574 --> 00:11:27,794 to the basic fundamentals of retail. 240 00:11:27,904 --> 00:11:31,744 If our business was a shop, on the high street, how would we lay it out? 241 00:11:31,764 --> 00:11:32,914 And why would we lay it out? 242 00:11:32,914 --> 00:11:35,614 And how would we get people in and navigating around the store? 243 00:11:36,864 --> 00:11:38,644 It's much, much simpler. 244 00:11:39,244 --> 00:11:39,504 It is. 245 00:11:39,504 --> 00:11:40,530 Think about it from that perspective. 246 00:11:40,530 --> 00:11:41,074 Yeah, it is. 247 00:11:41,474 --> 00:11:44,604 Matt Edmundson: No, I like that because actually, for me, commerce is still a 248 00:11:44,604 --> 00:11:47,074 lot about old school principles, right? 249 00:11:47,134 --> 00:11:50,254 Technology's changing, the way people buy are changing, and 250 00:11:50,254 --> 00:11:51,784 we've got to keep up with that. 251 00:11:52,404 --> 00:11:53,754 But the principles of... 252 00:11:54,409 --> 00:11:59,539 How to deal with people, even online, are still pretty timeless, aren't they? 253 00:11:59,539 --> 00:12:03,099 And you still want to treat people properly, with respect. 254 00:12:03,099 --> 00:12:05,489 You still, there's all these things that you can think about. 255 00:12:05,589 --> 00:12:08,419 But we think because it's e commerce, those rules don't apply. 256 00:12:08,419 --> 00:12:11,319 So you do focus in on, Oh, I just want to get my site speed. 257 00:12:11,419 --> 00:12:15,299 I want to get that magic green number on the Google page speed test. 258 00:12:16,059 --> 00:12:19,139 And it's yeah, but if there's a fundamental problem with how you're 259 00:12:19,149 --> 00:12:22,749 connecting with people, how you're talking with people, the language you're using 260 00:12:22,749 --> 00:12:27,849 on the website, but I think I know which is the bigger problem to solve, yeah. 261 00:12:28,199 --> 00:12:30,439 Ian Hammersley: It's I think, in some e commerce businesses speed. 262 00:12:30,779 --> 00:12:35,129 If you've got people are adding, 10 things to the basket, like a, like AB two B site, 263 00:12:35,129 --> 00:12:36,779 the speed just be to quite important. 264 00:12:36,779 --> 00:12:39,964 But like the average lifetime customer value, so the amount of times people 265 00:12:39,964 --> 00:12:44,254 shop online in a year in a typical e-commerce business is 1.2 times a year. 266 00:12:44,374 --> 00:12:46,744 It's like they're not coming to the site that often, like they're 267 00:12:46,744 --> 00:12:49,474 only buying 1.2 times in a year. 268 00:12:49,474 --> 00:12:49,564 Yeah. 269 00:12:49,994 --> 00:12:52,904 For them, they're not buying because the website's fast. 270 00:12:52,904 --> 00:12:53,864 They're buying because. 271 00:12:54,144 --> 00:12:57,324 They believe that, we've convinced them that there's our abilities there, 272 00:12:57,334 --> 00:13:01,374 that we've removed their anxiety, we've positioned the brand and actually believe 273 00:13:01,374 --> 00:13:04,224 that we're going to, we're actually going to get the product to us, that we want. 274 00:13:04,264 --> 00:13:05,914 And, that's why they buy. 275 00:13:06,204 --> 00:13:10,184 And I always think, going back to the analogy of e commerce, 276 00:13:10,184 --> 00:13:11,824 it is all about people. 277 00:13:11,854 --> 00:13:14,954 And if you're looking at your Google Analytics and you're looking at 278 00:13:14,994 --> 00:13:17,664 your sessions, like that's people. 279 00:13:17,664 --> 00:13:17,954 Okay. 280 00:13:17,954 --> 00:13:20,324 Apart from a bot, let's not talk about bots, but let, the 281 00:13:20,324 --> 00:13:21,744 sessions, it's people, isn't it? 282 00:13:21,754 --> 00:13:23,024 It's actually people coming in. 283 00:13:23,024 --> 00:13:23,734 And I always say. 284 00:13:24,254 --> 00:13:29,234 Imagine if your e commerce store was a physical shop on the high street 285 00:13:29,234 --> 00:13:32,934 and just close your eyes for a minute and just go imagine if someone, if 286 00:13:32,934 --> 00:13:38,134 I could see people coming into the shop and I might get people who, go 287 00:13:38,144 --> 00:13:42,814 over to a, a bunch of shelves and put something in the basket and then drop 288 00:13:42,814 --> 00:13:44,334 the basket on the floor and walk out. 289 00:13:44,899 --> 00:13:48,779 You could see this happening and then maybe some people would would go over to 290 00:13:48,779 --> 00:13:52,559 the till and they're about to buy and then they just leave the basket on the floor 291 00:13:52,589 --> 00:13:55,499 and then run out of the shop, or there was some people that were just about to 292 00:13:55,499 --> 00:13:59,259 put the credit card on the contact list and they just abandoned and then you 293 00:13:59,259 --> 00:14:03,699 end up like with all these empty baskets all over the shop and you'd have some 294 00:14:03,699 --> 00:14:07,379 people that had come in the shop and just walk out the door and it like, this is. 295 00:14:07,689 --> 00:14:10,369 This is how we break down the conversion rate, because it's like 296 00:14:10,369 --> 00:14:11,609 how many people add to basket? 297 00:14:12,009 --> 00:14:15,049 On average, it's about 10 percent should add to basket. 298 00:14:15,099 --> 00:14:18,059 And then of those people that add to basket, about 50 percent of 299 00:14:18,059 --> 00:14:20,379 them should go to the checkout. 300 00:14:20,399 --> 00:14:20,689 Yeah. 301 00:14:20,849 --> 00:14:25,529 And then about 85 percent of them who go to the checkout should actually buy. 302 00:14:25,559 --> 00:14:27,839 So if you think about, because if someone says to you, oh, get your 303 00:14:27,879 --> 00:14:30,279 conversion rate high, you just need to get your conversion rate high. 304 00:14:30,279 --> 00:14:32,159 It's it's completely pointless. 305 00:14:32,339 --> 00:14:34,449 It's like saying, be more successful, just sell more stuff. 306 00:14:36,149 --> 00:14:36,299 It's It's 307 00:14:40,399 --> 00:14:41,099 really irritating. 308 00:14:41,379 --> 00:14:43,379 So you've got to break it down to those things. 309 00:14:43,389 --> 00:14:48,269 And I think, what we often find as well is that in fact, true 310 00:14:48,409 --> 00:14:51,729 story, there's a business in Manchester, a fashion econ brand. 311 00:14:52,824 --> 00:14:56,584 That we're doing, we're pretty big, doing about 20 million and 312 00:14:56,614 --> 00:15:01,184 they wanted to improve their, they thought to improve their conversion 313 00:15:01,184 --> 00:15:02,384 rate, they'd improve the checkout. 314 00:15:02,414 --> 00:15:03,504 Let's improve the checkout. 315 00:15:04,124 --> 00:15:08,644 And they were obsessed over it, it took them about six months and spent a lot 316 00:15:08,714 --> 00:15:14,704 of money and time trying to make their checkout really slick and, roll it out. 317 00:15:15,174 --> 00:15:20,234 After six months of absolute blood, sweat and tears, and nothing 318 00:15:20,234 --> 00:15:22,424 happened, like no, nothing happened. 319 00:15:22,474 --> 00:15:25,324 There was no improvement to checkout whatsoever, no improvement to 320 00:15:25,344 --> 00:15:30,134 conversion rate, like the drop off was identical, there was no change at all. 321 00:15:30,734 --> 00:15:33,734 And when you look back and you go, obviously there wasn't 322 00:15:33,784 --> 00:15:35,844 going to be any change, because their checkout to order stats. 323 00:15:36,564 --> 00:15:39,714 Was already at 92% and the average is 84. 324 00:15:40,349 --> 00:15:43,224 So you're like, you're already way higher than average. 325 00:15:43,264 --> 00:15:44,914 But guess what's low? 326 00:15:44,914 --> 00:15:47,824 That like their add to basket stack was less than 4%. 327 00:15:47,824 --> 00:15:50,314 So they've got less than 4% of people running to basket. 328 00:15:50,319 --> 00:15:50,914 And you're like what? 329 00:15:51,154 --> 00:15:52,834 That's why you should spend your time. 330 00:15:52,894 --> 00:15:53,254 Yeah. 331 00:15:53,659 --> 00:15:57,709 At which then they did subsequently did spend the time and, they, they 332 00:15:57,709 --> 00:16:00,759 put a little bit of effort in there and they got the ad to basket up to 333 00:16:00,759 --> 00:16:04,429 about 6%, which was like revolutionary. 334 00:16:04,429 --> 00:16:06,859 They massively increased the conversion rate and I think they added like a 335 00:16:06,859 --> 00:16:12,269 couple of million quid, just by, and if they'd started looking at the how many 336 00:16:12,269 --> 00:16:15,949 ad to basket, how many go from basket to checkout and they looked, they see 337 00:16:15,949 --> 00:16:17,289 where the opportunity is and it's. 338 00:16:17,914 --> 00:16:22,274 Simple stuff like that, once you figure, once you understand that, you go, oh that 339 00:16:22,274 --> 00:16:25,044 makes sense, why are we faffing around, and the same thing about if it was a 340 00:16:25,044 --> 00:16:28,824 physical store, if you had a physical shop, you'd be like faffing around 341 00:16:28,824 --> 00:16:31,184 with the wallpaper behind the checkout. 342 00:16:31,904 --> 00:16:35,214 Because, you think that's going to make people check out better. 343 00:16:35,394 --> 00:16:38,784 Actually, it'd be far better to look at the fact that you, no one can find 344 00:16:38,784 --> 00:16:40,324 your bloody products in the first place. 345 00:16:41,544 --> 00:16:41,884 You No, 346 00:16:44,674 --> 00:16:46,344 Matt Edmundson: this is all good stuff. 347 00:16:46,354 --> 00:16:49,544 And I'm busy taking notes in cause I, all very helpful. 348 00:16:49,994 --> 00:16:53,814 What sort of things then if we go through this, going back to the example of the 349 00:16:53,814 --> 00:16:55,754 company, their add to basket rate was 4%. 350 00:16:56,829 --> 00:16:57,599 Work on that. 351 00:16:57,639 --> 00:16:59,989 They increased it by 50%, 6%. 352 00:17:00,609 --> 00:17:06,389 What sort of things would, did they do, or would you recommend people do to it? 353 00:17:06,649 --> 00:17:09,329 If they're struggling there, how do we increase our 354 00:17:09,329 --> 00:17:10,169 Ian Hammersley: add to basket rate? 355 00:17:10,569 --> 00:17:10,939 Yeah. 356 00:17:11,229 --> 00:17:13,754 So that particular business actually was very. 357 00:17:14,414 --> 00:17:18,219 tyPical of a lot of e-com businesses now that, if you break it down, 358 00:17:18,219 --> 00:17:19,869 so their add to basket was 4%. 359 00:17:20,169 --> 00:17:23,414 So that, so for them, we'd probably say, the average order 360 00:17:23,414 --> 00:17:25,954 value was about 80 pounds. 361 00:17:25,954 --> 00:17:26,674 Something like that. 362 00:17:26,679 --> 00:17:26,769 Yeah. 363 00:17:27,034 --> 00:17:29,704 So we'd say, okay, let's try and get your ba add to basket up. 364 00:17:29,924 --> 00:17:31,659 Let's try and really focus on it. 365 00:17:31,659 --> 00:17:33,999 So somebody like that, maybe about 8% and basically. 366 00:17:35,839 --> 00:17:38,479 Once you, if your ad basket is low, you have to look at where they're landing. 367 00:17:38,849 --> 00:17:44,169 So now the average amount of people that land on the product page, 368 00:17:44,169 --> 00:17:47,899 about 60 percent of a normal e com business land on the product page. 369 00:17:48,139 --> 00:17:53,424 So they don't go to the home, like 20 percent is home, 20 percent is category. 370 00:17:53,804 --> 00:17:57,544 And then 60 percent is product, so normally, and so the product 371 00:17:57,544 --> 00:17:59,004 page is the new landing page. 372 00:17:59,434 --> 00:18:03,144 And then you look at the fact that, how much was mobile, how much was desktop, 373 00:18:03,264 --> 00:18:08,164 and this particular business is 75 percent was mobile, and so you're like, okay, 374 00:18:08,324 --> 00:18:12,684 so they're all landing on the product page, and they're all on mobile, And 375 00:18:12,734 --> 00:18:14,294 so you that's where we need to start. 376 00:18:14,354 --> 00:18:16,424 And then you look at what are the most popular products? 377 00:18:16,424 --> 00:18:19,634 And there's no, the 80 20 rule, like there's always the best sellers. 378 00:18:19,634 --> 00:18:20,914 And you go these are the products they're landing on. 379 00:18:21,114 --> 00:18:24,464 So you then start to know exactly where they're landing. 380 00:18:25,054 --> 00:18:28,194 What device that they're on and obviously then you optimize that because you 381 00:18:28,194 --> 00:18:31,124 can't do everything You know that in this particular business had I think 382 00:18:31,144 --> 00:18:34,584 go thousand or two products a couple of thousand products So you're like 383 00:18:34,604 --> 00:18:39,314 actually the way where we should optimize is where we're spending the money 384 00:18:39,344 --> 00:18:43,214 like they know And the reason why the landing on the product page on mobiles 385 00:18:43,254 --> 00:18:46,479 because that's where they're at the ants Oh, that's where the customers were. 386 00:18:46,509 --> 00:18:49,459 Cause it was, they're looking at their own Google shopping and on Facebook 387 00:18:49,509 --> 00:18:53,229 product ads and all meta products. 388 00:18:54,029 --> 00:18:57,619 You Facebook when we looked at it, but you get a good idea. 389 00:18:57,619 --> 00:19:00,379 And basically the next thing to look at was that their 390 00:19:00,379 --> 00:19:01,509 bounce rate was really high. 391 00:19:01,729 --> 00:19:05,229 People are landing on the product page on the mobile and the bounce 392 00:19:05,229 --> 00:19:08,949 rate was like 80 about 85%. 393 00:19:09,019 --> 00:19:17,289 Yeah Now the average bounce rate for a product page should be less than 60%. 394 00:19:18,179 --> 00:19:20,489 So this particular business, how do they bounce rate at 80? 395 00:19:21,429 --> 00:19:25,819 And so there's the other, benchmark is if the bounce rate for the homepage 396 00:19:25,889 --> 00:19:30,309 should be less than 25 bounce rate for a collection or category page should 397 00:19:30,309 --> 00:19:33,599 be less than 50 and the bounce rate for a product page should be less than 60. 398 00:19:33,989 --> 00:19:36,689 So you go well normally when the ad basket is low, it's cause 399 00:19:36,689 --> 00:19:38,009 there's a bounce rate problem. 400 00:19:38,609 --> 00:19:40,389 So you go okay, if I get the bounce rate. 401 00:19:41,784 --> 00:19:46,724 Lower, we are naturally, we go, we should get an increase anti basket and 402 00:19:46,724 --> 00:19:50,024 if the ante basket's higher, we should get an increase of conversion rate. 403 00:19:50,024 --> 00:19:52,244 And if the conversion rate's higher, we should get an increase of roas. 404 00:19:53,109 --> 00:19:55,299 Which means we could then pull the traffic lever again. 405 00:19:55,299 --> 00:19:59,849 So it's just, it's following the route up rather than having this 406 00:20:00,059 --> 00:20:02,279 generic, let's do everything. 407 00:20:02,284 --> 00:20:05,429 'cause essentially in Ecomms, I think if you do everything, you don't do anything. 408 00:20:05,519 --> 00:20:05,969 Yeah. 409 00:20:06,269 --> 00:20:08,009 Because it's just waste of time. 410 00:20:08,059 --> 00:20:10,079 Often, and it can be expensive. 411 00:20:10,084 --> 00:20:11,729 So essentially with that particular business. 412 00:20:12,404 --> 00:20:15,404 It's, it was product page mobile and what you're really doing then 413 00:20:15,404 --> 00:20:19,024 is you're looking at okay, are we positioning the business correctly? 414 00:20:19,264 --> 00:20:21,104 Do they, do people know who we are? 415 00:20:22,024 --> 00:20:25,234 Do we pass the busy restaurant test, which is something that Mark and I came 416 00:20:25,234 --> 00:20:27,934 up with, which was the positioning. 417 00:20:28,054 --> 00:20:31,014 And sometimes people put their positioning on the homepage, like where 418 00:20:31,014 --> 00:20:36,684 the UK is leading such and such with, 50, 000 amazing reviews and then they 419 00:20:36,694 --> 00:20:38,014 don't put that on the product page. 420 00:20:38,014 --> 00:20:40,444 Then no one ever sees it because they're landing on the product page. 421 00:20:40,444 --> 00:20:42,334 So there's and the Busy Restaurant Test. 422 00:20:43,654 --> 00:20:45,574 I'll just tell you a story really quick. 423 00:20:45,694 --> 00:20:46,204 Go for it. 424 00:20:46,204 --> 00:20:49,524 If you, if I may, you don't want, don't wanna go down too many rabbit 425 00:20:49,524 --> 00:20:52,044 holes and you have to bring me back, Matt, and problems with you and me. 426 00:20:52,044 --> 00:20:54,474 We'll just end up chatting here for days. 427 00:20:54,529 --> 00:20:58,719 But the busy restaurant test is the idea that, let's say you are in a, someone 428 00:20:58,719 --> 00:21:02,019 like Paris or London or something and you're with your partner and you're 429 00:21:02,019 --> 00:21:05,379 hungry, you are really hungry and you are walking down the high street and you 430 00:21:05,379 --> 00:21:06,699 need to find somewhere to eat quickly. 431 00:21:06,699 --> 00:21:07,804 And two restaurants. 432 00:21:08,099 --> 00:21:11,639 And one, one restaurant is nicely full, nicely busy, and the other 433 00:21:11,639 --> 00:21:13,299 restaurant is completely empty. 434 00:21:14,069 --> 00:21:16,199 And you say which restaurant do you want to eat in? 435 00:21:16,719 --> 00:21:18,519 And you say I'll go to the busy one. 436 00:21:18,739 --> 00:21:19,299 Why? 437 00:21:19,389 --> 00:21:21,099 Because there's people in it. 438 00:21:21,099 --> 00:21:22,849 So there's evidence that it must be good. 439 00:21:23,189 --> 00:21:26,049 And you're like, at this point, you don't even know if the food's any good. 440 00:21:26,079 --> 00:21:27,219 You can't even see the food. 441 00:21:27,249 --> 00:21:30,799 You can't even see the menu, but people in it and you go it must be good. 442 00:21:31,039 --> 00:21:32,439 And there's loads of. 443 00:21:41,849 --> 00:21:47,069 There's a like nanosecond of time where people make the decision whether 444 00:21:47,069 --> 00:21:50,789 or not they should stay, should stick around, and am I going to find what 445 00:21:50,829 --> 00:21:53,149 I want in this e commerce store? 446 00:21:53,419 --> 00:21:55,479 Should I bother to invest my time here? 447 00:21:55,509 --> 00:21:59,369 Cause the overwhelming temptation is to go back into Google or Instagram 448 00:21:59,369 --> 00:22:02,099 or wherever the hell you work and try and find it from somewhere else, cause 449 00:22:02,099 --> 00:22:03,899 you can, it's not like being in a... 450 00:22:04,429 --> 00:22:09,169 A town on the high street where, you're the only, shop that 451 00:22:09,169 --> 00:22:11,389 sells hammers in this town. 452 00:22:11,479 --> 00:22:11,799 Yeah. 453 00:22:11,859 --> 00:22:15,849 And that's where like the e coms change and I think, you have to position it 454 00:22:15,899 --> 00:22:20,739 because you, you might be one of 300 shops in the town selling the same hammer 455 00:22:21,259 --> 00:22:24,999 or whatever you're selling, online is, it's like walking into the Trafford set. 456 00:22:24,999 --> 00:22:25,339 We have a. 457 00:22:25,819 --> 00:22:29,199 The shopping, big shopping mall near me in Manchester called the Trafford 458 00:22:29,199 --> 00:22:31,019 Centre, there's about 300 shops in there. 459 00:22:31,699 --> 00:22:35,759 And I always say to people, it's imagine if you walked into the Trafford Centre and 460 00:22:35,829 --> 00:22:40,629 there's 300 shops in there, all selling the same stuff that you're selling. 461 00:22:40,679 --> 00:22:44,494 And you're like, as a customer, where, why would you buy from you? 462 00:22:44,934 --> 00:22:49,574 How are you going to position people to get to come in and buy and that's 463 00:22:49,574 --> 00:22:51,934 a really difficult question for a lot of econ businesses because 464 00:22:51,934 --> 00:22:55,244 they often say things like, Oh we just got great customer service. 465 00:22:55,839 --> 00:22:57,999 We're a family business, we've got great customer service, we 466 00:22:58,009 --> 00:22:59,559 really look after your customers. 467 00:22:59,879 --> 00:23:02,309 And then you go to the website and you're like there's no evidence 468 00:23:03,309 --> 00:23:04,669 you are what you say you are. 469 00:23:04,699 --> 00:23:06,639 Like, there's nothing, you're not even saying that. 470 00:23:06,669 --> 00:23:11,179 And things like trust and credibility is a big one, and the only way to 471 00:23:11,219 --> 00:23:14,209 demonstrate trust and credibility is to prove it, to actually show it. 472 00:23:14,769 --> 00:23:15,849 You can't say, we're great. 473 00:23:16,169 --> 00:23:17,079 You have to show. 474 00:23:17,434 --> 00:23:22,224 Evidence of trust from customers and credibility often from a third party. 475 00:23:22,494 --> 00:23:23,364 Anyway, I'm rambling. 476 00:23:23,414 --> 00:23:24,364 I'm rambling a lot now. 477 00:23:24,364 --> 00:23:24,624 No, 478 00:23:24,994 --> 00:23:25,584 Matt Edmundson: it's good. 479 00:23:25,674 --> 00:23:26,194 It's good. 480 00:23:26,194 --> 00:23:31,554 I'm curious, as you're talking, who do you think is doing this well at the moment? 481 00:23:31,564 --> 00:23:35,424 Positioning their brand well, showing that sort of trusted 482 00:23:35,424 --> 00:23:37,044 credibility that you're talking about. 483 00:23:38,369 --> 00:23:41,619 Ian Hammersley: Yeah, there's a couple of examples that I always throw out there. 484 00:23:41,689 --> 00:23:45,249 One of them, one of them is Spoke London, so there's a business called Spoke 485 00:23:45,249 --> 00:23:50,169 London, it's a UK business, Southern Men's Chinos and what we often find is that 486 00:23:50,179 --> 00:23:52,559 the positioning of an e com business. 487 00:23:53,739 --> 00:23:59,569 It should be based on two things, like what people want and what they don't want. 488 00:23:59,899 --> 00:24:04,419 And the way to find this, so that spoke London, if you're buying, they 489 00:24:04,419 --> 00:24:05,969 sell men's trousers online, right? 490 00:24:05,989 --> 00:24:08,619 If you've, if you ever bought trousers online, particularly 491 00:24:08,629 --> 00:24:13,419 trousers, and for particularly for men, but the thing that we... 492 00:24:14,049 --> 00:24:17,389 One is we want it to fit like we're anxious about for 493 00:24:17,389 --> 00:24:18,549 what happens doesn't fit me. 494 00:24:18,659 --> 00:24:18,899 Yeah. 495 00:24:18,939 --> 00:24:20,770 Like that, that's what we're really bothered about. 496 00:24:20,770 --> 00:24:27,390 So their positioning is they're focused on the biggest pain or anxiety when 497 00:24:27,390 --> 00:24:31,540 you're buying something online, trousers which is fit, but will it fit me? 498 00:24:31,540 --> 00:24:35,470 And then that whole strap line is the best we know fit no one else, 499 00:24:35,490 --> 00:24:38,140 we've got over 400 custom fit. 500 00:24:40,240 --> 00:24:41,700 And so that's their positioning. 501 00:24:41,730 --> 00:24:47,110 And then they back that up with a quote from the Telegraph saying, 502 00:24:47,390 --> 00:24:52,500 the, the ultimate go to best fitting Chino we've ever tried. 503 00:24:53,020 --> 00:24:56,630 So they've got that third party and then their reviews from their 504 00:24:56,890 --> 00:24:59,710 customers are all talking about fit. 505 00:24:59,870 --> 00:25:04,070 Oh my God, I never thought I'd find a pair of Chinos that would fit me as well. 506 00:25:04,200 --> 00:25:05,550 And and it just repeats it. 507 00:25:05,550 --> 00:25:07,020 So they've positioned it on fit. 508 00:25:07,710 --> 00:25:10,630 And then they're backing it up with third party credibility 509 00:25:10,700 --> 00:25:11,960 and evidence from customers. 510 00:25:11,990 --> 00:25:15,870 And to be honest, like 50 percent of e commerce is about, 511 00:25:16,000 --> 00:25:17,020 it's about getting that yeah. 512 00:25:17,020 --> 00:25:17,780 Particularly now. 513 00:25:18,220 --> 00:25:18,930 And they did it. 514 00:25:18,970 --> 00:25:24,130 And each industry in e com, there's always a different like anxiety. 515 00:25:24,680 --> 00:25:26,480 Take something like gifting. 516 00:25:28,035 --> 00:25:31,035 The gifting isn't obviously about fit, but the gifting anxiety is, 517 00:25:31,055 --> 00:25:34,445 will it arrive on time for the event? 518 00:25:34,980 --> 00:25:36,990 Like for the birthday, is it going to arrive? 519 00:25:37,170 --> 00:25:40,300 So and then the second one is well, what happens if they don't like it? 520 00:25:40,870 --> 00:25:43,600 And so and then you go well Then we know that we know what they're bothered 521 00:25:43,600 --> 00:25:46,790 about because we can see it in the because that's what the negative reviews 522 00:25:46,790 --> 00:25:49,430 are You always we always look at we do something called the anxiety test. 523 00:25:49,490 --> 00:25:50,730 Yeah, you look at the reviews. 524 00:25:51,160 --> 00:25:55,220 That's brilliant all your competitors Like what people love about 525 00:25:55,220 --> 00:25:56,190 them and they hate about them. 526 00:25:56,190 --> 00:25:59,770 It's all online go on Trustpilot no one does this we like we love doing it. 527 00:25:59,790 --> 00:26:00,650 We love doing it. 528 00:26:00,650 --> 00:26:01,070 I'm with you 529 00:26:01,210 --> 00:26:03,810 Matt Edmundson: I spend a lot of time looking at reviews from other sites here 530 00:26:04,820 --> 00:26:06,890 Ian Hammersley: It's so good, and then essentially you go back, 531 00:26:06,970 --> 00:26:11,140 like gifting, and you say are we addressing the biggest anxieties? 532 00:26:11,385 --> 00:26:14,865 Which is, will it arrive on time, and what happens if they don't like it? 533 00:26:14,915 --> 00:26:16,785 And often the answer is no. 534 00:26:17,005 --> 00:26:20,945 You're not saying when it's going to arrive, guaranteed delivery, next day, 535 00:26:20,945 --> 00:26:25,585 or super fast dispatch, or, guaranteed next day delivery, in stock you don't 536 00:26:25,595 --> 00:26:27,155 even say if it's in stock sometimes. 537 00:26:27,425 --> 00:26:29,975 And then the second one is, what happens if they don't like it? 538 00:26:30,855 --> 00:26:34,525 You just put, 60 day returns don't put a bloody 14 day, or 539 00:26:34,695 --> 00:26:35,794 even a third, it's not enough. 540 00:26:36,095 --> 00:26:40,085 You buy a gift for somebody, you want an extended return, nobody returns 541 00:26:40,115 --> 00:26:42,175 gifts anyway, so it's like free money. 542 00:26:42,655 --> 00:26:46,455 So you have to put this, and you have to put it in the place that people 543 00:26:46,455 --> 00:26:48,755 see it you wouldn't put it in the terms and conditions, you've got 544 00:26:48,755 --> 00:26:51,135 to put it next to the after baskets so people can actually see it. 545 00:26:51,605 --> 00:26:53,775 And once you do that review mining. 546 00:26:54,735 --> 00:26:59,155 Your positioning becomes quite clear and, the job to be done for gifting 547 00:26:59,685 --> 00:27:03,165 is the emotional reaction that your gift recipient is going to receive. 548 00:27:03,215 --> 00:27:05,825 So if I gave you a gift, I'm going to be like, oh my god, 549 00:27:05,825 --> 00:27:07,265 Matt's going to love this. 550 00:27:07,605 --> 00:27:08,915 I can't wait to see his face. 551 00:27:09,565 --> 00:27:11,625 When I give it to them, that's the job to be done. 552 00:27:11,745 --> 00:27:12,825 That's what I'm buying. 553 00:27:13,475 --> 00:27:15,225 And the marketing then. 554 00:27:15,715 --> 00:27:21,715 On, on, on social should technically be little videos of people go, 555 00:27:22,005 --> 00:27:23,895 Oh my God, this is amazing. 556 00:27:24,175 --> 00:27:25,265 Thank you so much. 557 00:27:25,315 --> 00:27:26,595 Cause that's the job to be done. 558 00:27:27,355 --> 00:27:30,705 So it's on, it's just understanding I think psychologically where people 559 00:27:31,215 --> 00:27:36,815 are when they're starting that decision and what they want and we've 560 00:27:36,815 --> 00:27:41,085 done loads of bloody, work around if it's a problem, like if you're 561 00:27:41,085 --> 00:27:46,290 selling a, like a replacement fridge It's very different to selling a 562 00:27:46,290 --> 00:27:50,010 beautiful cashmere scarf of 500 pounds. 563 00:27:50,010 --> 00:27:50,790 Isn't it different? 564 00:27:51,270 --> 00:27:52,530 The needs are different, aren't they? 565 00:27:52,535 --> 00:27:52,625 Yeah. 566 00:27:52,625 --> 00:27:52,626 Yeah. 567 00:27:52,631 --> 00:27:55,650 So you have to, is it desirability, is it problem solving? 568 00:27:55,650 --> 00:27:56,370 Is it convincibility? 569 00:27:57,030 --> 00:27:59,940 But it's, to be honest, it's the same method. 570 00:27:59,945 --> 00:28:02,980 It's just you have to understand psychologically what, what doubt they 571 00:28:02,980 --> 00:28:06,340 want, which the anxieties, how can we get rid of all those anxieties 572 00:28:06,700 --> 00:28:09,970 and what do they want, which is desirability or preventability, 573 00:28:09,970 --> 00:28:11,290 and then you back it up with. 574 00:28:11,615 --> 00:28:12,985 With evidence that we've done it. 575 00:28:13,955 --> 00:28:14,525 Ah, great. 576 00:28:14,865 --> 00:28:16,695 Matt Edmundson: And everyone will be checking out Spoke London now. 577 00:28:17,730 --> 00:28:21,520 I've actually been on their website and they send me, or they used to send me, 578 00:28:21,520 --> 00:28:24,450 I've not sent me, maybe because I've moved actually, I told them my new address, 579 00:28:24,450 --> 00:28:28,070 but they send those little well done, mini catalogue type things, the little 580 00:28:28,070 --> 00:28:29,940 paper things, which are quite lovely. 581 00:28:30,455 --> 00:28:34,445 So I know the site that you mean, and yeah I fully appreciate, it's a great example. 582 00:28:34,555 --> 00:28:36,935 Were you involved with that, or did you just think it's a good example? 583 00:28:36,945 --> 00:28:37,315 No, 584 00:28:38,275 --> 00:28:40,565 Ian Hammersley: no, we, no, I'd to say, I think we did have a chat 585 00:28:40,565 --> 00:28:44,015 with them once, but, they're, like most of our great ideas, we just. 586 00:28:44,330 --> 00:28:47,890 We see somebody's doing a good job and we then we go, oh, that was clever. 587 00:28:49,800 --> 00:28:50,510 I like that. 588 00:28:51,230 --> 00:28:52,090 Matt Edmundson: I like that. 589 00:28:52,090 --> 00:28:52,930 We'll that a lot. 590 00:28:52,930 --> 00:28:53,040 Yeah. 591 00:28:53,440 --> 00:28:54,160 We do that a lot. 592 00:28:54,450 --> 00:28:58,080 And like you, I do a lot of mining through reviews. 593 00:28:59,010 --> 00:29:03,130 Not only our reviews, but the reviews of competitors, the reviews of similar 594 00:29:03,130 --> 00:29:06,940 products which might not even be a direct competitor and you're always 595 00:29:06,940 --> 00:29:10,890 looking for the common statements or the common questions that people have, or 596 00:29:10,890 --> 00:29:15,230 the common, this solved this problem, that sort of information, aren't you? 597 00:29:15,230 --> 00:29:19,730 And it's, I'm always surprised at how many people don't do it, but it is just 598 00:29:22,950 --> 00:29:27,960 Ian Hammersley: a gold mine And I think I actually call it like the gold nuggets 599 00:29:28,040 --> 00:29:31,400 of e commerce because, you always find... 600 00:29:32,110 --> 00:29:34,010 These really great reviews. 601 00:29:34,020 --> 00:29:39,780 So you know, we did it for a big cookware retailer in the UK, one of the biggest 602 00:29:39,780 --> 00:29:43,410 and we were looking at saucepans and like they're trying to, they're trying 603 00:29:43,410 --> 00:29:47,310 to sell, more saucepans and there was a non stick saucepan and you look at 604 00:29:47,310 --> 00:29:51,610 the, and it's like when I say this, it's so obvious, but like until you 605 00:29:51,610 --> 00:29:53,440 look at the reviews what they're good. 606 00:29:53,440 --> 00:29:55,890 And we, we looked at I mean we're nerds, we looked at 607 00:29:55,970 --> 00:29:57,750 thousands, one of the reviews. 608 00:29:58,040 --> 00:30:01,820 The good reviews is, it says things like, it's truly non stick. 609 00:30:02,190 --> 00:30:05,940 And it said, there was another one that said, It's so easy to clean, 610 00:30:06,160 --> 00:30:09,100 even my teenage son couldn't do it. 611 00:30:10,200 --> 00:30:10,890 You're like, there's 612 00:30:10,890 --> 00:30:12,260 Matt Edmundson: my box in Strathlane. 613 00:30:13,580 --> 00:30:14,420 Ian Hammersley: That's it! 614 00:30:14,630 --> 00:30:16,080 That's the job to be done, that's what you want. 615 00:30:16,450 --> 00:30:20,590 The opposite is is, basically, it's hard to clean and let it work. 616 00:30:21,025 --> 00:30:21,535 It was a pain. 617 00:30:21,535 --> 00:30:24,365 And so you know what people want, so you exactly, you know how to position 618 00:30:24,365 --> 00:30:25,815 it and then you know what to back it up. 619 00:30:25,815 --> 00:30:27,515 So yeah, it's like a gift. 620 00:30:28,455 --> 00:30:31,095 Lots of people don't do it, which is a mistake in my opinion. 621 00:30:31,245 --> 00:30:31,595 Matt Edmundson: Yeah. 622 00:30:31,995 --> 00:30:35,495 Now like you, I can't begin to tell you how many headlines I've used because it's 623 00:30:35,495 --> 00:30:37,175 a comment written in someone's review. 624 00:30:37,385 --> 00:30:37,540 Yeah. 625 00:30:37,540 --> 00:30:40,805 And you just think, even ChatGPT couldn't have come up with that, 626 00:30:40,815 --> 00:30:42,265 it's just, it's a beautiful thing. 627 00:30:42,740 --> 00:30:46,510 And so yeah, we, I like that, even my teenage son could clean it. 628 00:30:47,030 --> 00:30:50,030 How to sell out your saucepan range, just put that in the... 629 00:30:50,430 --> 00:30:52,210 Ian Hammersley: It's just, and once you see those reviews, 630 00:30:52,210 --> 00:30:53,910 you just know, ah, that's it. 631 00:30:54,420 --> 00:30:55,240 And actually the... 632 00:30:56,040 --> 00:31:00,000 We often find that people will install the latest Trustpilot widget or 633 00:31:00,180 --> 00:31:02,990 whatever widget, review widget, and they'll just plonk it on and go, Oh, 634 00:31:02,990 --> 00:31:04,560 there you go, I've put my reviews on. 635 00:31:04,960 --> 00:31:08,660 And it's no, because what problem is when you just plonk on the 636 00:31:08,700 --> 00:31:12,389 a generic review engine that's pulling through the latest reviews. 637 00:31:12,880 --> 00:31:16,100 You end up getting reviews on there that have nothing to do with 638 00:31:16,100 --> 00:31:18,130 the job to be done or anxiety. 639 00:31:18,610 --> 00:31:23,170 And, for example, for the cookware brand, we would know, for that 640 00:31:23,170 --> 00:31:27,720 saucepan, that people really want to see evidence that it's truly non stick, 641 00:31:27,730 --> 00:31:29,080 and that's what they're bothered about. 642 00:31:29,410 --> 00:31:32,370 So if the reviews come through and they go, oh, it arrived next day... 643 00:31:33,965 --> 00:31:36,425 People aren't buying the source because it arrives the next day. 644 00:31:37,895 --> 00:31:42,165 We often like to cherry pick the reviews and highlight them. 645 00:31:42,755 --> 00:31:43,745 And bring them out. 646 00:31:44,005 --> 00:31:47,875 And then, that's what you put in your Instagram, Facebook ads, you 647 00:31:47,875 --> 00:31:50,785 put in your welcome series, all your emails, that's what you put 648 00:31:50,785 --> 00:31:52,975 on the website, all over the place. 649 00:31:53,035 --> 00:31:58,105 You're starting to bring that story and tell that story on throughout everything. 650 00:31:58,115 --> 00:32:02,835 And it's, I don't know that, this is, I think it's 50 percent of it is. 651 00:32:03,245 --> 00:32:06,605 It's about finding the right positioning and then backing it 652 00:32:06,605 --> 00:32:08,885 up with trust and credibility. 653 00:32:09,465 --> 00:32:12,655 Matt Edmundson: It is because I like, what you're in effect doing is you're talking. 654 00:32:13,295 --> 00:32:17,545 A language that matters to the customer in a way that they understand on 655 00:32:17,545 --> 00:32:22,035 you and this again goes back to the earlier comment of e commerce is about 656 00:32:22,035 --> 00:32:26,735 old school principles using in effect modern technology as a form of delivery. 657 00:32:27,390 --> 00:32:28,560 It's still the same thing. 658 00:32:28,560 --> 00:32:29,700 What matters to your client? 659 00:32:29,720 --> 00:32:33,640 Talk in a way that matters to them and and you'll be amazed 660 00:32:33,640 --> 00:32:36,090 at just doing that simple thing. 661 00:32:36,100 --> 00:32:37,640 It's it's quite an incredible thing. 662 00:32:38,220 --> 00:32:41,220 What's your just on a slight tangent here, Ian since we're talking 663 00:32:41,220 --> 00:32:48,480 about reviews, how let's say I'm a econ business just starting out. 664 00:32:48,520 --> 00:32:51,800 My reviews aren't great in terms of numbers. 665 00:32:52,410 --> 00:32:55,260 What sort of things can I do to go and get more reviews, do 666 00:32:55,260 --> 00:32:55,560 Ian Hammersley: you think? 667 00:32:56,400 --> 00:33:01,110 Yeah, I think the first thing to note is actually, the biggest 668 00:33:01,110 --> 00:33:03,790 thing you have to demonstrate with e commerce is really evidence 669 00:33:03,790 --> 00:33:05,690 that you can, back up your claims. 670 00:33:05,690 --> 00:33:11,880 And sometimes the worst thing you can do is actually put, we've got ten 671 00:33:11,890 --> 00:33:16,335 reviews, or, and I always say anything, actually anything less than a thousand. 672 00:33:17,120 --> 00:33:21,380 You know what, in some respects it can do more harm if you've got the 673 00:33:21,380 --> 00:33:23,980 widget on there, the Trustpilot widget that says, hey, yeah, we've 674 00:33:23,980 --> 00:33:29,590 got 200 reviews, rated, and it actually makes you look like you're, 675 00:33:30,450 --> 00:33:32,760 selling from your bedroom sometimes. 676 00:33:32,760 --> 00:33:33,960 You look, you don't, you look. 677 00:33:34,300 --> 00:33:39,050 So I actually say hide, you're better off hiding your, your 678 00:33:39,050 --> 00:33:40,670 kind of small review count. 679 00:33:41,630 --> 00:33:45,370 And you're better off, coming up with better positioning around, 680 00:33:45,710 --> 00:33:49,370 how many products you've sold or how many customers you've had 681 00:33:49,370 --> 00:33:51,170 or how long you've been trading. 682 00:33:51,390 --> 00:33:51,670 Yeah. 683 00:33:51,770 --> 00:33:56,530 Because it just looks a lot more impressive and I really don't buy the. 684 00:33:57,210 --> 00:34:00,240 obViously it depends on who you are and what you're selling, but generally, 685 00:34:01,140 --> 00:34:04,160 people are sceptical and, people don't know because when you're on, when you're 686 00:34:04,160 --> 00:34:07,910 in, when you're buying on the high street or in a supermarket, shopping 687 00:34:07,910 --> 00:34:09,790 arcade, you can see the shop, right? 688 00:34:09,790 --> 00:34:12,360 You know that it's there, it's credible. 689 00:34:12,360 --> 00:34:15,520 When you're online, people are much more sceptical about 690 00:34:15,520 --> 00:34:16,995 who the hell are these guys? 691 00:34:17,035 --> 00:34:18,465 Are they a guy in his bedroom? 692 00:34:18,465 --> 00:34:19,455 Are they a big mash and mash? 693 00:34:19,825 --> 00:34:23,354 And people don't want to feel that they're going to be let down. 694 00:34:24,544 --> 00:34:28,094 Yeah, generally, and obviously to try to get more reviews, really, you have to 695 00:34:28,104 --> 00:34:33,704 ask for it, we have, some industries tend to get, naturally, more reviews, we're 696 00:34:33,714 --> 00:34:38,909 working with a jigsaw company at the moment, and And they're selling jigsaws 697 00:34:38,949 --> 00:34:42,239 to probably slightly older demographics. 698 00:34:42,269 --> 00:34:44,579 And I think when they email them and say, can you give us a review? 699 00:34:44,789 --> 00:34:46,859 I think they go this is part of the process. 700 00:34:46,889 --> 00:34:48,049 I'm like, I've got to do this. 701 00:34:48,699 --> 00:34:50,239 So they get a little like. 702 00:34:50,775 --> 00:34:54,840 Over I think one's got 40, 000 reviews on Trustpilot, and we're 703 00:34:55,320 --> 00:34:57,040 like, holy God, how did you get that? 704 00:34:57,690 --> 00:35:00,880 And so I just asked for it, whereas in other industries, the same 705 00:35:00,880 --> 00:35:02,350 thing doesn't work quite as well. 706 00:35:02,670 --> 00:35:04,090 They're not bothered. 707 00:35:04,730 --> 00:35:08,270 Yeah but it obviously does over time, it does it does grow. 708 00:35:08,610 --> 00:35:08,930 Yeah. 709 00:35:08,990 --> 00:35:14,110 One, one, one little trick actually, just in the perspective of us completely 710 00:35:14,110 --> 00:35:17,170 learning all the time, whenever we're working with an e com brand. 711 00:35:17,955 --> 00:35:20,895 It's always something you learn and one did it the other day and they said, 712 00:35:20,895 --> 00:35:25,755 Oh before we send the, the review on Trustpilot or wherever it, whatever review 713 00:35:25,755 --> 00:35:29,195 engine it was we email them personally and we say, Hey, welcome to our brand. 714 00:35:29,475 --> 00:35:30,465 We're so proud. 715 00:35:30,785 --> 00:35:33,605 We're, we are, we're a family business, we really want you 716 00:35:33,605 --> 00:35:34,725 to have a great experience. 717 00:35:34,745 --> 00:35:36,644 So if there's anything that you're not. 718 00:35:36,855 --> 00:35:41,105 Entirely happy with, please let us know and we'll put it right. 719 00:35:41,545 --> 00:35:44,665 And they did a video of them and I think like one of them, like the, 720 00:35:44,855 --> 00:35:46,895 she's holding like the, she's at home. 721 00:35:47,045 --> 00:35:47,105 Yeah. 722 00:35:47,105 --> 00:35:48,245 She's holding a baby. 723 00:35:48,375 --> 00:35:52,520 And there's and they get so many emails back saying I was going to 724 00:35:52,520 --> 00:35:56,180 give you a one star review because it the, the postman left it on 725 00:35:56,180 --> 00:35:57,350 the, with the doorstep, whatever. 726 00:35:57,350 --> 00:36:02,075 But actually, I'll reach out to you and then that massively helped them 727 00:36:02,075 --> 00:36:06,075 get the the five star like rather than negative reviews because sometimes 728 00:36:06,165 --> 00:36:10,975 you can get the odd negative review and it's, it is as an owner, it's 729 00:36:10,975 --> 00:36:13,255 quite soul destroying, isn't it? 730 00:36:13,255 --> 00:36:13,655 Yeah, you 731 00:36:13,915 --> 00:36:14,915 Matt Edmundson: take it quite personally sometimes. 732 00:36:15,875 --> 00:36:16,475 No, you do. 733 00:36:17,245 --> 00:36:21,815 I remember with with Trustpilot when we were, we don't use Trustpilot anymore, 734 00:36:21,815 --> 00:36:26,050 but when we were, one of the problems that we found was again, it came 735 00:36:26,050 --> 00:36:29,280 down to sequencing with the emails, I think in some respects, but one of the 736 00:36:29,280 --> 00:36:34,290 problems we found was people treated Trustpilot like a customer service thing. 737 00:36:34,710 --> 00:36:37,740 So it's my order's not arrived yet, so I'm going to give you a one star review 738 00:36:37,740 --> 00:36:39,690 rather than going to customer service. 739 00:36:40,240 --> 00:36:41,520 Where's my order? 740 00:36:42,295 --> 00:36:47,065 Do to figure, it's just I think those, how we position those reviews, 741 00:36:47,065 --> 00:36:50,345 how we, the sequence in which we ask them is actually quite important. 742 00:36:51,225 --> 00:36:55,545 Because I think people do start to think, say things on there, which is 743 00:36:55,545 --> 00:36:57,315 that's actually a customer service issue. 744 00:36:57,785 --> 00:36:59,035 That's not a review issue. 745 00:36:59,820 --> 00:37:03,630 A review issue is the product was crap, or the product was great 746 00:37:03,650 --> 00:37:07,910 or a review issue is not, oh I've not got my tracking number yet. 747 00:37:08,070 --> 00:37:10,620 It's just, it's an interesting one, isn't it? 748 00:37:10,930 --> 00:37:11,610 Ian Hammersley: It is unfair. 749 00:37:12,100 --> 00:37:14,870 I think the only thing really you can do if you get negative reviews, 750 00:37:15,040 --> 00:37:17,270 I agree with you completely about the sequencing, is actually to 751 00:37:17,270 --> 00:37:18,980 drown the negative in positive. 752 00:37:18,980 --> 00:37:23,400 And sometimes you'll find facebook, you'll have some negative reviews 753 00:37:23,400 --> 00:37:27,139 on Google or Facebook and, you want to just get them above four 754 00:37:27,649 --> 00:37:31,889 because, people will find a way to, to make a comment, a decision. 755 00:37:32,399 --> 00:37:35,389 And you really just have to try and drown them out and forget about them 756 00:37:35,389 --> 00:37:37,409 actually, and not take them too seriously. 757 00:37:38,489 --> 00:37:41,189 The problem is sometimes, obviously we're told as marketers, yes, you have to 758 00:37:41,219 --> 00:37:46,069 listen to your customers, but actually, you don't want to listen to possibly Mrs. 759 00:37:46,069 --> 00:37:49,929 Miggings who's saying that, the website was hard to use and you end up putting 760 00:37:50,019 --> 00:37:54,690 like a big bloody, tick box on the, the, on the checkout that says, Do you 761 00:37:54,690 --> 00:37:59,450 accept that we may never, if you listen to your customer services to, in some 762 00:37:59,450 --> 00:38:04,900 businesses have actually moved the e com directors away from the customer service 763 00:38:04,900 --> 00:38:09,170 team because they're getting really depressed listening to the customer, 764 00:38:09,500 --> 00:38:12,646 and all I'm saying is that obviously we have to listen to our customers, we need 765 00:38:12,646 --> 00:38:16,626 to make the website better and answer questions, but the negative customers 766 00:38:16,636 --> 00:38:19,696 have a disproportionately loud voice. 767 00:38:19,716 --> 00:38:20,166 Yes they do. 768 00:38:21,006 --> 00:38:23,586 And it stops you doing. 769 00:38:24,221 --> 00:38:25,791 Things that are going to encourage growth. 770 00:38:26,496 --> 00:38:30,206 Your recruitment offer, your retention offer, you just have to accept that 771 00:38:30,216 --> 00:38:34,936 they're going to be some people that that moan and, but it's, you might've 772 00:38:34,946 --> 00:38:38,686 had a thousand customers that are really happy and one that's then given you a, 773 00:38:38,716 --> 00:38:43,896 a negative review and then it's like whole businesses like change their 774 00:38:43,896 --> 00:38:48,936 entire strategy of one damn review and you're like, why are you doing why would 775 00:38:48,936 --> 00:38:49,476 Matt Edmundson: you do that? 776 00:38:49,516 --> 00:38:50,106 Yeah. 777 00:38:50,396 --> 00:38:50,826 Yeah. 778 00:38:50,896 --> 00:38:52,386 No it's I'm with you on that. 779 00:38:52,386 --> 00:38:56,416 I think it's one of those things where you, especially if you care about your 780 00:38:56,416 --> 00:38:59,696 business and I appreciate this is not true of everybody, but if you care 781 00:38:59,696 --> 00:39:03,416 deeply about the business you do have a tendency to take those negative reviews 782 00:39:03,446 --> 00:39:06,496 to heart and you take them personally. 783 00:39:06,896 --> 00:39:12,066 And I think very simply, you just look at the review and go, is there honestly 784 00:39:12,066 --> 00:39:13,286 anything that we can learn from this? 785 00:39:13,286 --> 00:39:13,886 Yes or no. 786 00:39:14,496 --> 00:39:14,636 Thank you. 787 00:39:14,956 --> 00:39:19,946 And how can we reach out to this person, offline, not in a in a 788 00:39:19,986 --> 00:39:23,466 commentary underneath, this sort of whole conversation plays out in the 789 00:39:23,466 --> 00:39:26,816 review, but how do we reach out to them and just talk to these people 790 00:39:26,816 --> 00:39:30,266 and just see what's actually going on before we make any crazy decisions, 791 00:39:30,316 --> 00:39:32,066 Ian Hammersley: yeah, like putting check boxes on the 792 00:39:32,196 --> 00:39:34,426 basket page and things like that. 793 00:39:34,426 --> 00:39:39,126 Matt Edmundson: Or just making your terms and conditions so convoluted. 794 00:39:39,556 --> 00:39:42,606 That was always something that bothered me a little bit, whenever you call a 795 00:39:42,606 --> 00:39:45,646 company up and they go, yeah, but our terms and conditions clearly state. 796 00:39:46,071 --> 00:39:47,921 The terms and conditions which I never read before. 797 00:39:47,931 --> 00:39:48,781 It's not our fault, is it? 798 00:39:49,581 --> 00:39:52,141 And you yeah, I just wanted you to act like a normal human 799 00:39:52,141 --> 00:39:53,191 being, if I'm honest with you. 800 00:39:53,291 --> 00:39:55,701 But apparently you can't cause you've wangled your way out of 801 00:39:55,701 --> 00:39:56,811 that and your terms and conditions. 802 00:39:57,371 --> 00:39:57,651 And it's. 803 00:39:59,411 --> 00:40:03,591 Yeah, I feel like I'm going to get on my soapbox in a minute, Ian, 804 00:40:03,741 --> 00:40:04,511 so I probably should avoid it. 805 00:40:04,511 --> 00:40:04,531 We 806 00:40:08,581 --> 00:40:13,391 Ian Hammersley: have our own e comm brands as well, and we always say, look, just, 807 00:40:13,441 --> 00:40:17,451 Just give them a, don't even worry about it, just give them a refund, obviously 808 00:40:17,821 --> 00:40:23,161 it depends on your costs and your margins, etc, but generally, just let it go. 809 00:40:23,511 --> 00:40:28,361 Just put it down to experience as part of the, the whole, all that ethos of growing 810 00:40:28,361 --> 00:40:32,921 an e com, like going back to the beta mode that's interesting, and, just generally 811 00:40:32,941 --> 00:40:35,146 try and stay to the course and keep going. 812 00:40:35,446 --> 00:40:35,776 Yeah. 813 00:40:35,806 --> 00:40:36,496 Matt Edmundson: No I'm with you. 814 00:40:36,886 --> 00:40:37,816 I'm totally with you. 815 00:40:38,356 --> 00:40:42,286 Listen, Ian, I'm aware of time and we're just, we are just losing it here. 816 00:40:42,666 --> 00:40:44,916 Tell me a little bit about the book. 817 00:40:44,916 --> 00:40:46,690 What I was fascinated with. 818 00:40:46,720 --> 00:40:49,550 'cause Chloe's is also, if you're not aware, they're listening. 819 00:40:49,550 --> 00:40:51,560 Chloe does an e-Commerce podcast, Chloe Thomas. 820 00:40:52,250 --> 00:40:55,800 whIch is also worth checking out, but Chloe's also written a book and I remember 821 00:40:55,810 --> 00:41:00,180 sitting down with Chloe going, what on earth possessed you to write a book? 822 00:41:00,280 --> 00:41:01,120 Why would you do that? 823 00:41:01,370 --> 00:41:04,580 So I'm going to ask you the same question Ian why and what 824 00:41:04,640 --> 00:41:05,670 was that whole journey like? 825 00:41:06,560 --> 00:41:08,820 Ian Hammersley: So the story behind the book, essentially my brother 826 00:41:08,850 --> 00:41:12,190 and I we've been in e commerce for, we're like, we're veterans now. 827 00:41:12,190 --> 00:41:13,670 We're like over 25 years. 828 00:41:14,510 --> 00:41:14,950 And. 829 00:41:16,080 --> 00:41:20,400 I think going back, quite early on and our focus really has been on 830 00:41:20,420 --> 00:41:25,040 answering a couple of questions, like two basic questions of e commerce, 831 00:41:25,040 --> 00:41:29,650 which is why some e commerce businesses scale and some don't like that. 832 00:41:29,650 --> 00:41:33,960 That was the, that was, and that still is the question that we set ourselves 833 00:41:34,100 --> 00:41:35,570 every day as we continue to go. 834 00:41:35,600 --> 00:41:38,120 And the book went into that really what are the. 835 00:41:38,500 --> 00:41:42,340 What are the successful things that e commerce businesses are doing that 836 00:41:42,340 --> 00:41:46,120 are growing and what are the ones that are stuck or just can't grow, is it, 837 00:41:46,160 --> 00:41:52,450 what were they doing, like what was consistent about both groups and that 838 00:41:52,450 --> 00:41:57,140 sort of, that was a bit of an obsession and it came down to some basic principles 839 00:41:57,190 --> 00:42:00,990 which we wrote about in the book and yeah, I think really we wrote the book 840 00:42:01,020 --> 00:42:05,750 probably as A bit of fun really, didn't think it would be, anyone would read 841 00:42:05,790 --> 00:42:09,600 you think what you're talking about, internally is common sense, but it's only 842 00:42:09,600 --> 00:42:10,910 because you've been doing it every day. 843 00:42:10,920 --> 00:42:15,710 You realize actually it's not, but the book was quite a cathartic exercise of it. 844 00:42:16,070 --> 00:42:19,270 And it really, it goes through the main KPIs that we look at when 845 00:42:19,270 --> 00:42:23,460 we're running our own e com brands and we, Mark and I, we're probably 846 00:42:23,460 --> 00:42:25,180 looking at four or five e com. 847 00:42:25,840 --> 00:42:30,520 We do analytics a day, and we have done for over 20 years, and through sheer, 848 00:42:30,990 --> 00:42:36,980 certainly no intelligence, but through sheer exposure, you get a very, like 849 00:42:36,980 --> 00:42:45,420 an unrivaled exposure to thousands, and you then get this sort of, this 850 00:42:45,440 --> 00:42:50,200 instinctive, and the book really talks about this, and I think the first one 851 00:42:51,530 --> 00:42:54,090 is really the maths, which is, which. 852 00:42:54,765 --> 00:42:56,325 unFortunately we can't get away with it. 853 00:42:56,365 --> 00:43:01,465 I was, I spoke in London the other week and at an event and I told a story 854 00:43:01,475 --> 00:43:05,305 that I was practicing for this speech and I turned to my, I've got three 855 00:43:05,305 --> 00:43:08,775 daughters and I turned to my daughters and I said, it's all about the mass. 856 00:43:08,835 --> 00:43:12,595 And they're like, no it can't be about the mass, take it back. 857 00:43:12,595 --> 00:43:14,975 And I was like this is a big part of in econ business. 858 00:43:16,155 --> 00:43:20,555 It was about that, and when we looked at the ones that were scaling, and the 859 00:43:20,555 --> 00:43:24,865 ones that were getting stuck, a lot of them had the maths on their side, 860 00:43:24,895 --> 00:43:28,865 so when I say the maths, like we're really talking about margin, life 861 00:43:28,865 --> 00:43:31,345 to customer value And, they had it. 862 00:43:31,415 --> 00:43:32,985 And you couldn't call it from the outside. 863 00:43:33,015 --> 00:43:36,695 I think as an e com professional, if you look at two e com brands, and you 864 00:43:36,695 --> 00:43:41,225 go that looks really slick, like really good, like beautiful, really well 865 00:43:41,225 --> 00:43:46,235 executed, great team, great marketing, great positioning, really nice. 866 00:43:46,285 --> 00:43:50,095 And the other one over here, perhaps a little bit rough and ready. 867 00:43:50,640 --> 00:43:54,420 And, but you couldn't, you cannot on that basis see which one's going to 868 00:43:54,420 --> 00:43:59,120 scale, like you can't, you have to go inside and the numbers are the key. 869 00:43:59,120 --> 00:44:04,860 So story we talk about in the book is there's two, the one on the left that 870 00:44:04,860 --> 00:44:09,840 looks super slick, that you think is going to scale, actually has low margin. 871 00:44:10,425 --> 00:44:14,895 Like 30 percent margin, which is pretty tight an average order value of 30 872 00:44:15,755 --> 00:44:17,595 and a lifetime customer value of one. 873 00:44:17,595 --> 00:44:20,485 It's not like it's a one gift, one product gift company. 874 00:44:20,955 --> 00:44:24,905 And you're like that's difficult because you've got so little room to 875 00:44:24,955 --> 00:44:29,995 play with when it comes to advertising, it's so hard to try to, cause you 876 00:44:30,025 --> 00:44:31,695 basically, we're at the mercy of. 877 00:44:32,050 --> 00:44:34,990 The Gorillas, which are Google and Meta, like they're the 878 00:44:34,990 --> 00:44:36,060 ones that we've got to play. 879 00:44:36,080 --> 00:44:39,970 We can't say to Google we're only want to give you 50p for a convert. 880 00:44:39,990 --> 00:44:43,300 They are literally going to dictate how much, you, they will allow 881 00:44:43,300 --> 00:44:44,690 you to recruit a customer for. 882 00:44:44,690 --> 00:44:45,780 So we've got to work with them. 883 00:44:46,000 --> 00:44:49,130 And the other side, that other one is a supplement type. 884 00:44:49,395 --> 00:44:54,375 Business of collagen type business and they've got margin of 60 percent Average 885 00:44:54,375 --> 00:45:00,785 order value of 50 and people buy 6 times a year, so over a year That customers 886 00:45:00,785 --> 00:45:06,825 worth, what, that's 200 or 300, so you can see how much easier it is to 887 00:45:06,825 --> 00:45:11,845 scale that one because you can really aggressively pull that traffic leaver 888 00:45:12,475 --> 00:45:14,865 and go for a very low New Customer ROAS. 889 00:45:15,495 --> 00:45:17,845 Whereas the one on the left, that gifting company, you're 890 00:45:17,845 --> 00:45:20,355 like, oh my, it's so difficult. 891 00:45:20,435 --> 00:45:21,115 Yeah, super tough. 892 00:45:21,185 --> 00:45:21,755 Super tough. 893 00:45:21,755 --> 00:45:25,735 So the maths, we talk about the maths it's basically the KPIs that we go through 894 00:45:25,735 --> 00:45:26,955 when we're running our own business. 895 00:45:26,955 --> 00:45:30,785 Like the, it wouldn't, and we said unexpected KPIs, but 896 00:45:30,885 --> 00:45:32,215 they're not that unexpected. 897 00:45:32,245 --> 00:45:36,015 The, the fairly logical ones, but it's a lot of it's telling 898 00:45:36,015 --> 00:45:38,115 stories of, of how we've. 899 00:45:38,530 --> 00:45:43,080 How we've, KPIs, like how you prove that, the antibasket rate and bounce 900 00:45:43,080 --> 00:45:44,730 rate and how it all comes together. 901 00:45:44,730 --> 00:45:48,410 But we know, at the day, we wrote the book because we enjoyed writing 902 00:45:48,410 --> 00:45:53,110 it, didn't really think it would be a bestseller, but it, shock, horror, 903 00:45:53,110 --> 00:45:57,990 people want to hear two, two, two boys from Stoke chatting about... 904 00:45:58,185 --> 00:45:58,755 Econ. 905 00:46:00,345 --> 00:46:02,645 Matt Edmundson: I'm always amazed how many people listen to our this podcast. 906 00:46:03,075 --> 00:46:05,702 I'm a boy from Derby, so not just down the road. 907 00:46:05,702 --> 00:46:06,579 Ah, we're pretty close. 908 00:46:06,579 --> 00:46:12,068 And I'm not in Derby now, but you do think, yeah, people actually are 909 00:46:12,088 --> 00:46:14,518 really interested in this stuff, which is always quite humbling. 910 00:46:15,348 --> 00:46:16,118 It's but it's lovely. 911 00:46:16,118 --> 00:46:21,668 So the book is called The Ultimate Guide to E Commerce Growth, Seven 912 00:46:21,728 --> 00:46:26,568 Unexpected KPIs to Scale an E Commerce Shop to 10, 000, 000 Plus. 913 00:46:27,298 --> 00:46:30,578 Do you I'm just looking at the picture on your website here. 914 00:46:30,968 --> 00:46:32,588 Do you change the cover for the U. 915 00:46:32,588 --> 00:46:32,788 S. 916 00:46:32,788 --> 00:46:33,328 market? 917 00:46:33,508 --> 00:46:35,158 So 10, 000, 000 plus? 918 00:46:35,773 --> 00:46:37,973 Or do you just leave the little pound symbol 919 00:46:37,973 --> 00:46:38,183 Ian Hammersley: in? 920 00:46:39,063 --> 00:46:40,683 a Sensible company would, yes. 921 00:46:45,283 --> 00:46:47,483 I'd be lying if we were that attentive. 922 00:46:48,493 --> 00:46:48,983 Fair enough. 923 00:46:49,873 --> 00:46:50,663 That's brilliant. 924 00:46:51,333 --> 00:46:52,013 The answer is no. 925 00:46:52,263 --> 00:46:54,918 I'll tell you what's funny about the American market UK. 926 00:46:59,293 --> 00:47:01,523 It might be doing like a couple of million, something like that. 927 00:47:01,623 --> 00:47:07,813 In America, that little small niche, is like 10 million and beyond. 928 00:47:07,843 --> 00:47:12,233 And just the market is so much bigger, the potential, it's hard, it's a 929 00:47:12,233 --> 00:47:16,583 competitive market, it's harder to crack but boy, if you could actually get in 930 00:47:17,183 --> 00:47:21,543 and start going, getting some of that market in America, it's a, it's huge. 931 00:47:21,543 --> 00:47:22,763 We have, we had a one, one. 932 00:47:24,053 --> 00:47:28,643 We were talking to the other day and he's selling like the ends of hose pipe, like 933 00:47:28,653 --> 00:47:33,233 hose pipe ends okay, hoses and little ends, and you think, oh, this is a tiny, 934 00:47:33,243 --> 00:47:37,173 in the UK, it would be like, I don't know, maybe 600, 000 pound turnover, 935 00:47:37,173 --> 00:47:42,843 maybe that, you 5 million and his nearest competitor, this is purely online, nearest 936 00:47:42,843 --> 00:47:49,353 competitor online is doing 60 million and the next one is doing 100 million online, 937 00:47:49,713 --> 00:47:51,683 selling these little ends of these. 938 00:47:52,578 --> 00:47:54,288 These hosepipes, I'm going to whoa, 939 00:47:54,718 --> 00:47:55,908 Matt Edmundson: where do I buy those from? 940 00:47:59,158 --> 00:47:59,938 I'm going to sell those. 941 00:48:00,268 --> 00:48:01,888 No, it's interesting what you say about the States. 942 00:48:03,093 --> 00:48:06,213 Our first, our beauty business, which we sold, we weren't 943 00:48:06,213 --> 00:48:07,533 allowed to sell to the states. 944 00:48:07,533 --> 00:48:10,033 We only had, we were only allowed to sell in Europe terms and 945 00:48:10,033 --> 00:48:11,023 conditions of the suppliers. 946 00:48:11,023 --> 00:48:12,523 We can talk about that another day. 947 00:48:12,563 --> 00:48:15,963 But our current side at the moment our supplement brand, we 948 00:48:15,963 --> 00:48:18,633 distribute to the states and it is a massive market for us now. 949 00:48:19,203 --> 00:48:22,143 Grown at a huge rate and it's. 950 00:48:22,593 --> 00:48:23,353 It's interesting. 951 00:48:23,563 --> 00:48:27,363 Australia is also a really interesting market, very up and coming, as is 952 00:48:27,363 --> 00:48:28,933 New Zealand, where Brother Mark is. 953 00:48:28,934 --> 00:48:30,143 There's only, the problem is in 954 00:48:31,503 --> 00:48:32,503 Ian Hammersley: New Zealand, there's only... 955 00:48:32,968 --> 00:48:34,098 It's only four people, yeah, 956 00:48:35,688 --> 00:48:37,558 Matt Edmundson: 300, 000 sheep, yeah, 957 00:48:39,388 --> 00:48:42,218 Ian Hammersley: it's like we're laughing because in New Zealand, in order to 958 00:48:42,248 --> 00:48:47,128 have a big Econ brand in New Zealand, you literally have to get the entire 959 00:48:47,498 --> 00:48:51,928 New Zealand population to buy from you, yes you do, because there's not enough, 960 00:48:52,008 --> 00:48:56,148 there's not enough people, so it, but likewise actually competition is a lot 961 00:48:56,148 --> 00:49:00,378 less, like there isn't as many people there because of the consumers, there's 962 00:49:00,628 --> 00:49:00,948 Matt Edmundson: not many. 963 00:49:01,773 --> 00:49:02,123 Very true. 964 00:49:02,373 --> 00:49:05,893 It is an interesting place for, we do a lot of business in New Zealand to be fair. 965 00:49:07,023 --> 00:49:07,673 Which is great. 966 00:49:08,133 --> 00:49:09,783 But no, interesting interesting. 967 00:49:09,783 --> 00:49:12,803 Listen Ian, I know we could, we're just getting warmed up. 968 00:49:12,903 --> 00:49:15,993 But if people want to reach out to you, if they want to connect, find out more 969 00:49:15,993 --> 00:49:20,623 about you, what you guys are doing the podcast, the book, the, cause you guys 970 00:49:20,623 --> 00:49:22,533 do a membership type thing as well. 971 00:49:22,533 --> 00:49:24,023 Where do people go find out more about that? 972 00:49:24,588 --> 00:49:28,848 Ian Hammersley: Yeah, the route most people find us through is either the 973 00:49:28,858 --> 00:49:32,978 masses of Facebook advertising that we ram down people's throats, though 974 00:49:33,838 --> 00:49:38,683 essentially if you Google Hammersley Brothers you'll see us in various forms 975 00:49:38,683 --> 00:49:40,323 and we've got the, we've got the site. 976 00:49:40,373 --> 00:49:45,614 The podcast is a, is a good gentle place to, to listen to us. 977 00:49:45,714 --> 00:49:48,724 But the Hammersley Brothers website is where we go. 978 00:49:48,934 --> 00:49:52,414 And essentially you can either, you can join one of the courses there and 979 00:49:52,414 --> 00:49:55,324 there's various different courses, trying to, some of them trying to get 980 00:49:55,334 --> 00:50:00,434 to different levels essentially get, get to 2 million, get to get beyond that. 981 00:50:00,494 --> 00:50:02,434 There's one that gets to 50k a month. 982 00:50:02,769 --> 00:50:04,858 Trying to focus on the right levels. 983 00:50:05,778 --> 00:50:06,818 But yeah, Hammersleybrothers. 984 00:50:06,858 --> 00:50:08,219 com is probably the best place 985 00:50:08,219 --> 00:50:08,599 Matt Edmundson: to go. 986 00:50:08,889 --> 00:50:09,609 Fantastic. 987 00:50:09,979 --> 00:50:10,529 Fantastic. 988 00:50:10,539 --> 00:50:14,319 We will of course link to that in the show notes as well, which if you're 989 00:50:14,349 --> 00:50:17,509 subscribed to the newsletter, we'll be coming their way to your inbox. 990 00:50:17,789 --> 00:50:21,169 Otherwise, sign up to the newsletter and we'll send it to you automatically. 991 00:50:21,569 --> 00:50:22,129 Mark, listen. 992 00:50:22,339 --> 00:50:26,289 Mark, Ian, I was thinking of your brother in New Zealand thank you so 993 00:50:26,419 --> 00:50:29,979 much for coming on the show, Matt, and genuinely loved the conversation, 994 00:50:29,979 --> 00:50:33,119 loved your insight, loved the down to earth Stoke manner that's quite 995 00:50:33,119 --> 00:50:37,709 nice, very refreshing, and yeah, I appreciate Matt, honestly, genuinely 996 00:50:37,709 --> 00:50:39,399 loved it, and we'll have to do it again. 997 00:50:40,629 --> 00:50:40,779 Ian Hammersley: Yeah. 998 00:50:40,799 --> 00:50:41,269 Thanks, Matt. 999 00:50:41,859 --> 00:50:42,429 Matt Edmundson: It's great. 1000 00:50:42,679 --> 00:50:42,779 Yes. 1001 00:50:42,969 --> 00:50:43,409 Great. 1002 00:50:43,419 --> 00:50:44,379 Thank you for coming on. 1003 00:50:44,649 --> 00:50:46,189 So what a great conversation. 1004 00:50:46,189 --> 00:50:48,799 Huge thanks again to Ian for joining me today. 1005 00:50:49,079 --> 00:50:53,479 Also a big shout out to today's show's sponsor, the e commerce cohort. 1006 00:50:53,489 --> 00:50:56,679 Remember to check out the e commerce cohort at ecommercecohort. 1007 00:50:57,649 --> 00:51:01,049 com and be sure to follow the e commerce podcast wherever you get your 1008 00:51:01,089 --> 00:51:05,029 podcast from because we've got some more great conversations lined up and 1009 00:51:05,049 --> 00:51:07,433 I don't want you to miss any of them. 1010 00:51:07,584 --> 00:51:08,244 Any of them. 1011 00:51:08,264 --> 00:51:08,654 No. 1012 00:51:08,934 --> 00:51:12,484 And of course, if no one has told you yet today, let me be the first 1013 00:51:12,484 --> 00:51:14,984 person to tell you, you are awesome. 1014 00:51:15,034 --> 00:51:15,474 Yes, you are. 1015 00:51:15,514 --> 00:51:16,294 created awesome. 1016 00:51:16,564 --> 00:51:18,284 It's just a burden you have to bear. 1017 00:51:18,594 --> 00:51:19,614 Ian's got to bear it. 1018 00:51:19,924 --> 00:51:20,674 I've got to bear it. 1019 00:51:21,144 --> 00:51:22,044 You've got to bear it as well. 1020 00:51:22,464 --> 00:51:25,324 The e commerce podcast is produced by Aurion Media. 1021 00:51:25,324 --> 00:51:27,644 You can find our entire archive of episodes. 1022 00:51:27,724 --> 00:51:29,294 on your favorite podcast app. 1023 00:51:29,314 --> 00:51:32,204 The team that makes this show possible is the wonderful Sadaf 1024 00:51:32,264 --> 00:51:34,324 Beynon and Tanya Hutsuliak. 1025 00:51:34,344 --> 00:51:36,274 Our theme song was written by Josh Edmundson. 1026 00:51:36,684 --> 00:51:40,234 And as I mentioned, if you would like to read the transcript or show notes, head 1027 00:51:40,234 --> 00:51:41,984 over to the website, ecommercepodcast. 1028 00:51:43,474 --> 00:51:44,054 net. 1029 00:51:44,534 --> 00:51:45,834 So that's it from me. 1030 00:51:46,384 --> 00:51:47,344 That's it from Ian. 1031 00:51:47,694 --> 00:51:49,284 Thank you so much for joining us. 1032 00:51:49,544 --> 00:51:50,934 I'll see you next time. 1033 00:51:51,194 --> 00:51:51,714 Bye for now. 1034 00:52:23,399 --> 00:52:24,089 Ian Hammersley: www. 1035 00:52:24,139 --> 00:52:24,319 crowd. 1036 00:52:24,319 --> 00:52:24,349 church. 1037 00:52:24,349 --> 00:52:24,379 org