1 00:00:00,484 --> 00:00:04,144 You found the backup wrap up your go-to podcast for all things 2 00:00:04,144 --> 00:00:06,484 backup recovery and cyber recovery. 3 00:00:07,144 --> 00:00:09,934 In this episode, we're talking about something that might make 4 00:00:09,934 --> 00:00:11,344 you a little uncomfortable. 5 00:00:11,749 --> 00:00:16,069 The idea that dis backups for all their benefits actually created 6 00:00:16,069 --> 00:00:20,119 a massive security problem that we're still dealing with today. 7 00:00:20,839 --> 00:00:24,169 I remember when we moved from tape to disk and it was amazing, 8 00:00:24,529 --> 00:00:28,609 but disk backup security wasn't actually part of the original design. 9 00:00:29,059 --> 00:00:31,939 Those backups sitting in ecolon slash backups. 10 00:00:32,254 --> 00:00:37,234 A threat actor can access them and delete them with one command persona. 11 00:00:37,234 --> 00:00:39,994 And I explained why this happened, and most importantly, 12 00:00:40,264 --> 00:00:41,974 what you can do about it today. 13 00:00:42,844 --> 00:00:47,464 By the way, if you don't know who I am, I'm w Curtis Preston, AKA, Mr. Backup, 14 00:00:47,644 --> 00:00:52,594 and I've been passionate about backup and recovery ever since I had to tell my boss. 15 00:00:53,149 --> 00:00:57,289 That there were no backups of that production database that we just lost. 16 00:00:57,769 --> 00:01:00,619 I don't want that to happen to you, and that's why I do this. 17 00:01:01,339 --> 00:01:05,569 Uh uh, on this podcast, we turn unappreciated backup admins 18 00:01:05,569 --> 00:01:07,519 into Cyber Recovery Heroes. 19 00:01:07,819 --> 00:01:09,859 This is the backup wrap up. 20 00:01:24,577 --> 00:01:25,987 Welcome to the backup wrap up. 21 00:01:25,987 --> 00:01:31,747 I'm your host, w Curtis Preston, AKA, Mr. Backup, and I have with me persona. 22 00:01:31,807 --> 00:01:33,337 I don't need no tape. 23 00:01:33,667 --> 00:01:35,527 Maldi, how's it going? 24 00:01:35,527 --> 00:01:35,947 Persona. 25 00:01:38,442 --> 00:01:39,187 I'm good. 26 00:01:39,187 --> 00:01:39,667 You know. 27 00:01:40,342 --> 00:01:42,682 don't think it's, I don't need no tape. 28 00:01:42,682 --> 00:01:43,822 I think it is. 29 00:01:44,122 --> 00:01:46,582 What's tape Malaiyandi, 30 00:01:48,652 --> 00:01:49,312 Yeah, you've, 31 00:01:49,462 --> 00:01:50,632 a VHS tape, right? 32 00:01:50,632 --> 00:01:51,232 Or a cassette 33 00:01:51,262 --> 00:01:51,832 yeah. 34 00:01:52,552 --> 00:01:53,182 Yeah. 35 00:01:53,242 --> 00:01:54,022 Linear tape. 36 00:01:54,022 --> 00:01:54,952 Open my friend. 37 00:01:56,332 --> 00:01:58,222 Digital data storage. 38 00:02:00,292 --> 00:02:02,572 Uh, exabyte. 39 00:02:02,577 --> 00:02:03,287 8,200. 40 00:02:04,597 --> 00:02:07,837 By the way, exabyte best named company in the history of naming 41 00:02:07,837 --> 00:02:10,327 companies, and it's not anymore. 42 00:02:10,807 --> 00:02:11,947 I wonder what happens, 43 00:02:12,037 --> 00:02:12,157 to Xite? 44 00:02:14,617 --> 00:02:17,947 not that company, exabyte. 45 00:02:19,702 --> 00:02:21,392 Someone must have bought that name. 46 00:02:21,847 --> 00:02:25,357 Well, surely, but 47 00:02:25,462 --> 00:02:25,882 surely. 48 00:02:25,927 --> 00:02:26,047 on. 49 00:02:26,107 --> 00:02:27,162 sir. I know what you mean. 50 00:02:28,372 --> 00:02:29,452 So Exabyte. 51 00:02:31,012 --> 00:02:31,792 It's interesting. 52 00:02:31,822 --> 00:02:32,182 Yeah. 53 00:02:32,182 --> 00:02:39,412 So some company, oh, a premium domain exclusively for sale 54 00:02:39,412 --> 00:02:40,942 on the brand bucket network. 55 00:02:40,942 --> 00:02:42,052 Guess how much it is? 56 00:02:42,457 --> 00:02:43,792 $150,000. 57 00:02:44,482 --> 00:02:46,072 $212,000. 58 00:02:48,652 --> 00:02:51,227 And I just made it 300 based on my comment. 59 00:02:51,257 --> 00:02:55,792 Yeah, so Exabyte was a, a tape drive manufacturer back in the day. 60 00:02:56,452 --> 00:03:01,222 Um, and it was the first tape drives, well, technically the second 61 00:03:01,222 --> 00:03:02,722 tape drive that I cut my teeth on. 62 00:03:02,722 --> 00:03:07,672 I also worked on quick drives, which were QIC, which were not quick. 63 00:03:08,152 --> 00:03:12,592 Um, the, they were actually quite slow, but 64 00:03:16,102 --> 00:03:18,052 grandpa's talking about tape again. 65 00:03:20,122 --> 00:03:22,072 Um, but you know what? 66 00:03:23,797 --> 00:03:27,157 The, the reason why we're having this conversation, like, and, and 67 00:03:27,157 --> 00:03:31,207 you know, and this isn't like a, we should all go back to tape episode, 68 00:03:31,237 --> 00:03:34,417 but I think it's one of those I think we should at least acknowledge. 69 00:03:35,737 --> 00:03:39,877 We, we can acknowledge the good that disk has done and it has done more 70 00:03:39,877 --> 00:03:46,747 good than harm, but it definitely, at least in one area has done harm. 71 00:03:47,527 --> 00:03:51,457 Um, so let, lemme just, um. 72 00:03:52,192 --> 00:03:52,582 Hang on. 73 00:03:53,322 --> 00:03:54,972 But, but, but, but, 74 00:03:55,222 --> 00:03:55,672 what, 75 00:03:56,142 --> 00:03:56,622 but, 76 00:03:57,262 --> 00:03:57,802 I'm gonna go back. 77 00:03:57,802 --> 00:03:59,242 I'm gonna, but we, we'll get to the 78 00:03:59,292 --> 00:03:59,622 no, no. 79 00:03:59,632 --> 00:04:00,262 button in a minute. 80 00:04:00,262 --> 00:04:00,682 What? 81 00:04:00,767 --> 00:04:02,127 but no, continue. 82 00:04:02,542 --> 00:04:03,142 Oh, okay. 83 00:04:03,202 --> 00:04:03,562 Okay. 84 00:04:04,282 --> 00:04:08,962 So I think that for the modern audience, grandpa does need 85 00:04:08,962 --> 00:04:10,042 to explain tape a little bit. 86 00:04:12,067 --> 00:04:12,577 Okay. 87 00:04:12,997 --> 00:04:15,577 Um, because tape, tape was not perfect. 88 00:04:15,577 --> 00:04:19,687 There's a reason that, that the world went to disk as a primary 89 00:04:19,687 --> 00:04:21,967 backup and recovery target, right? 90 00:04:22,867 --> 00:04:25,957 But it also had a lot of good about it, right? 91 00:04:25,957 --> 00:04:29,587 And, and also it was not as bad as people thought it was, et cetera, 92 00:04:29,587 --> 00:04:30,517 et cetera, et cetera, right? 93 00:04:30,607 --> 00:04:33,607 And, and by the way, more tape is sold today than ever before. 94 00:04:33,937 --> 00:04:36,697 So that's, uh, that is a fact. 95 00:04:37,807 --> 00:04:39,157 But let's just go back to the. 96 00:04:39,997 --> 00:04:43,417 Back before disk based backups were a thing. 97 00:04:43,447 --> 00:04:45,657 By the way, at one point everybody did backups with tape. 98 00:04:46,077 --> 00:04:46,467 Right? 99 00:04:47,157 --> 00:04:52,257 And then at some point there was a company who tried to address the 100 00:04:52,257 --> 00:04:57,537 challenges that we had with tape by putting disk in front of the tape system. 101 00:04:57,552 --> 00:04:57,882 that, 102 00:04:58,377 --> 00:04:58,767 What, 103 00:04:58,907 --> 00:04:59,457 the challenges are 104 00:04:59,547 --> 00:05:01,767 well, hang on, just, I'm just gonna say this. 105 00:05:01,917 --> 00:05:02,757 I'm gonna finish this. 106 00:05:03,342 --> 00:05:04,572 Who, who was that company? 107 00:05:04,932 --> 00:05:06,522 And they were, we said they were crazy. 108 00:05:07,817 --> 00:05:08,257 IBM. 109 00:05:08,802 --> 00:05:09,072 Yeah. 110 00:05:09,072 --> 00:05:09,852 IBM Yeah. 111 00:05:10,662 --> 00:05:10,962 Okay. 112 00:05:11,172 --> 00:05:11,532 Anyway. 113 00:05:12,072 --> 00:05:17,322 Alright, so, yeah, so basically a tape drive, you know, you, you 114 00:05:17,322 --> 00:05:19,482 have a, you have a tape, right? 115 00:05:19,632 --> 00:05:24,762 And you have a tape drive that lays the data down magnetically 116 00:05:24,762 --> 00:05:27,042 on the, on the tape, right? 117 00:05:27,057 --> 00:05:27,747 strip, right? 118 00:05:27,747 --> 00:05:29,662 And it's like a physical strip that 119 00:05:29,772 --> 00:05:30,222 Yeah. 120 00:05:30,342 --> 00:05:30,732 Yeah. 121 00:05:30,942 --> 00:05:32,802 So you have two different kinds of tapes. 122 00:05:32,922 --> 00:05:37,182 You have cassettes and you have, uh, cartridges. 123 00:05:37,392 --> 00:05:42,192 So a cassette for, for those of us that remember cassette tapes, right? 124 00:05:42,372 --> 00:05:45,732 So a cassette tape, a lit. Technically a lot of people are like, oh, 125 00:05:45,732 --> 00:05:46,932 well, you mean like cassette tapes? 126 00:05:46,932 --> 00:05:49,092 Like, you know, like I had of my cassette tape player. 127 00:05:49,452 --> 00:05:49,662 Like 128 00:05:49,692 --> 00:05:53,082 So a cassette tape literally means a tape with two spools. 129 00:05:53,532 --> 00:05:53,622 Mm-hmm. 130 00:05:53,757 --> 00:05:54,177 Right. 131 00:05:54,417 --> 00:05:58,557 But most modern tape drives are what we call cartridge tapes, which means 132 00:05:58,557 --> 00:06:00,687 that they just have one spool, okay? 133 00:06:01,047 --> 00:06:06,897 And the way a cassette tape works is the tape stays entirely inside the the box. 134 00:06:07,107 --> 00:06:09,747 I'm making a really, that's the biggest cassette tape, actually. 135 00:06:09,927 --> 00:06:12,867 V-C-R-V-C-R would be a cassette tape, right? 136 00:06:13,257 --> 00:06:16,947 The tape stays in entirely inside the box, and it just goes 137 00:06:16,947 --> 00:06:18,027 from one spool to the other. 138 00:06:18,027 --> 00:06:18,357 Spool. 139 00:06:18,957 --> 00:06:24,567 A cartridge tape, like LTO is a single spool, and the tape is 140 00:06:24,567 --> 00:06:29,997 pulled entirely out of the, the, the cartridge and spooled onto another 141 00:06:29,997 --> 00:06:34,257 device for use, and then it, and then it's pulled back into the cartridge. 142 00:06:34,257 --> 00:06:34,587 Right. 143 00:06:35,247 --> 00:06:43,017 Um, there are also two ways of writing the data on the tape because, um. 144 00:06:45,072 --> 00:06:47,952 One thing that is important to understand about tape and this'll, 145 00:06:48,072 --> 00:06:54,192 this'll come to resurface, and that is that in order to get a good signal 146 00:06:54,192 --> 00:06:58,212 to noise ratio, which you'd need, you need a good signal to noise ratio in 147 00:06:58,212 --> 00:07:00,342 order to reliably write the data to. 148 00:07:00,657 --> 00:07:02,877 To tape, right, to a magnetic media. 149 00:07:03,687 --> 00:07:09,597 Uh, the tape head has to be going very quickly across the medium, right? 150 00:07:10,347 --> 00:07:12,117 Uh, the, the tape, right? 151 00:07:12,177 --> 00:07:15,062 And there are two ways that we make that happen. 152 00:07:15,957 --> 00:07:22,077 With a cassette tape system like the Exabyte 8,200 a IT, which is the 153 00:07:22,077 --> 00:07:27,507 most, probably the most modern, um, system that was a cassette system. 154 00:07:28,047 --> 00:07:29,787 It's a helical recording. 155 00:07:29,787 --> 00:07:33,867 The, there's a drum that's slanted and it spins, and the tape is 156 00:07:33,867 --> 00:07:37,887 pulled slowly across that slanted head and it writes slanted. 157 00:07:37,892 --> 00:07:38,032 Um. 158 00:07:38,802 --> 00:07:40,722 Stripes across the, the tape? 159 00:07:40,857 --> 00:07:41,427 an angle. 160 00:07:41,682 --> 00:07:41,952 Yeah. 161 00:07:41,952 --> 00:07:42,462 At an angle. 162 00:07:42,462 --> 00:07:42,822 Yeah. 163 00:07:43,302 --> 00:07:47,682 And, um, and the tape is actually going pretty slow and it's the head that's 164 00:07:47,682 --> 00:07:49,182 spinning, that's going very fast. 165 00:07:49,932 --> 00:07:55,092 The industry pretty much gave up on that design for whatever reason. 166 00:07:55,362 --> 00:08:01,562 And they went with the, linear type tape where you have a, a stationary head. 167 00:08:02,072 --> 00:08:06,902 And, um, and then it goes, the, the tape is pulled very quickly 168 00:08:06,902 --> 00:08:10,502 across that head in order to get that high signal to noise ratio. 169 00:08:11,132 --> 00:08:11,552 Right. 170 00:08:12,032 --> 00:08:18,662 Um, but unfortunately that came with a side effect that the tape 171 00:08:18,662 --> 00:08:20,702 was not great at going slow. 172 00:08:20,702 --> 00:08:20,792 Right. 173 00:08:22,057 --> 00:08:24,542 Um, that you, 174 00:08:24,587 --> 00:08:26,717 do, how do you define fast and slow? 175 00:08:26,717 --> 00:08:29,237 Because I think people probably don't have a notion 176 00:08:29,342 --> 00:08:29,822 yeah. 177 00:08:30,137 --> 00:08:31,577 relative speeds of these, 178 00:08:31,697 --> 00:08:32,417 Great question. 179 00:08:32,657 --> 00:08:34,727 So in terms of megabytes per second, 180 00:08:35,172 --> 00:08:35,592 Mm-hmm. 181 00:08:36,317 --> 00:08:45,107 um, that, uh, like a modern LTO 10, which just started shipping, 182 00:08:46,217 --> 00:08:49,757 wants a gigabyte a second, right? 183 00:08:51,167 --> 00:08:51,677 Yeah. 184 00:08:52,247 --> 00:08:56,447 Um, and, and back when I was dealing with things like, it was like we 185 00:08:56,447 --> 00:09:00,047 were talking like 15 megabytes a second, 30 megabytes per second. 186 00:09:00,047 --> 00:09:04,877 And the numbers just, the problem is, in order to get the tapes bigger, you 187 00:09:04,877 --> 00:09:07,097 put the bits closer together on tape, 188 00:09:07,202 --> 00:09:07,622 Mm-hmm. 189 00:09:07,667 --> 00:09:10,427 as the bits got closer together on tape, the tape got faster. 190 00:09:10,752 --> 00:09:10,972 Mm. 191 00:09:12,077 --> 00:09:15,917 And so, and, but the problem is as the tapes got faster and faster, 192 00:09:16,067 --> 00:09:20,087 the ability to give data to the tape was what didn't get faster. 193 00:09:20,147 --> 00:09:21,287 And so you got this. 194 00:09:21,527 --> 00:09:22,637 fire hose to feed it? 195 00:09:22,877 --> 00:09:23,327 Yeah. 196 00:09:23,327 --> 00:09:24,677 And you couldn't, you couldn't do it. 197 00:09:24,707 --> 00:09:27,587 You, you, you know, you needed a fire hose and what you got was 198 00:09:27,587 --> 00:09:29,417 a, you know, a bathroom faucet. 199 00:09:29,987 --> 00:09:30,347 Right. 200 00:09:30,827 --> 00:09:31,427 Exactly. 201 00:09:31,427 --> 00:09:31,787 Right. 202 00:09:32,267 --> 00:09:35,657 Um, and, um, so. 203 00:09:36,542 --> 00:09:39,422 You had this fundamental mismatch between the ability of the tape 204 00:09:39,422 --> 00:09:42,362 drive to go needing to go fast. 205 00:09:42,362 --> 00:09:44,342 It couldn't go slow again. 206 00:09:44,462 --> 00:09:48,002 It had to go fast because of the signal to noise ratio. 207 00:09:48,212 --> 00:09:49,712 And so it couldn't slow down. 208 00:09:50,192 --> 00:09:53,282 Uh, if it slowed down, you get a low signal to noise ratio. 209 00:09:54,062 --> 00:09:54,362 well, 210 00:09:54,362 --> 00:09:54,572 Um, 211 00:09:54,662 --> 00:09:57,362 tape drives do have a low speed, right? 212 00:09:58,562 --> 00:10:01,802 so they have a low war speed, 213 00:10:01,922 --> 00:10:02,132 Yeah. 214 00:10:02,312 --> 00:10:02,792 but that. 215 00:10:03,122 --> 00:10:03,392 Yeah. 216 00:10:03,572 --> 00:10:04,742 not that low, 217 00:10:05,012 --> 00:10:05,282 It's 218 00:10:05,342 --> 00:10:05,642 right? 219 00:10:05,642 --> 00:10:06,362 There's just a 220 00:10:07,022 --> 00:10:07,292 Yeah. 221 00:10:07,412 --> 00:10:07,742 that? 222 00:10:08,132 --> 00:10:09,272 It's not like a megabyte a 223 00:10:09,542 --> 00:10:14,642 No, like in the case of LTO 10, it's probably 500 megabytes per second. 224 00:10:15,122 --> 00:10:15,512 Right. 225 00:10:16,022 --> 00:10:17,762 Which is still really fast. 226 00:10:17,792 --> 00:10:18,212 Right. 227 00:10:19,082 --> 00:10:26,347 And also when you, when you, um, when you match that with the. 228 00:10:27,017 --> 00:10:31,457 Type of backups we were doing, most backups are incremental backups. 229 00:10:31,727 --> 00:10:32,117 Right. 230 00:10:32,657 --> 00:10:36,047 Which supply like a megabyte every minute, right? 231 00:10:36,047 --> 00:10:39,167 You're, you're scrolling through the file system trying to find files or 232 00:10:39,167 --> 00:10:40,727 blocks that need to be backed up. 233 00:10:40,997 --> 00:10:44,537 You're not concerned with how many of them, uh, you know, right. 234 00:10:45,557 --> 00:10:49,667 So you, you had this fundamental mismatch between what was happening 235 00:10:49,877 --> 00:10:53,777 on the supply side and what was needed on, on the drive side. 236 00:10:53,777 --> 00:10:54,077 Right. 237 00:10:54,552 --> 00:10:58,722 And when you have that, you end up doing the shoe shining thing where you're, 238 00:10:58,722 --> 00:11:02,922 the tape is going back and forth to try to keep up with this slow, uh, speed. 239 00:11:03,707 --> 00:11:05,922 It, it cannot, literally cannot write slow. 240 00:11:05,922 --> 00:11:08,892 So what it's doing is it's, it's like imagine a car. 241 00:11:09,612 --> 00:11:13,182 Imagine trying to put people into a car that only knows 242 00:11:13,182 --> 00:11:14,592 how to go 60 miles an hour. 243 00:11:14,997 --> 00:11:15,477 Right. 244 00:11:15,657 --> 00:11:19,317 And what it's doing it, it's going up to 60 and then, you know, you're 245 00:11:19,317 --> 00:11:22,527 throwing people in the car and then it's backing up and you know, it, it is 246 00:11:22,527 --> 00:11:23,937 just crazy what it, what it was doing. 247 00:11:23,937 --> 00:11:24,147 Right. 248 00:11:24,147 --> 00:11:25,137 It was wearing out the tape. 249 00:11:25,137 --> 00:11:26,187 It was wearing out the drive. 250 00:11:26,637 --> 00:11:28,077 It was making the drive unreliable. 251 00:11:28,077 --> 00:11:28,767 And so, 252 00:11:29,412 --> 00:11:30,087 Everyone complained. 253 00:11:30,867 --> 00:11:37,597 Everyone complained and we started, uh, looking at a way to use disk 254 00:11:37,617 --> 00:11:41,007 as a way to ameliorate that issue. 255 00:11:41,127 --> 00:11:41,217 Right. 256 00:11:41,487 --> 00:11:45,297 Which goes back to your thing about IBM at the start 257 00:11:45,317 --> 00:11:46,467 Yeah, exactly right. 258 00:11:46,467 --> 00:11:52,392 And IBM was the, uh, the first company with what was originally called A DSM. 259 00:11:53,397 --> 00:11:58,077 Uh, and then it became called TSM, and now it's called Spectrum Protect. 260 00:11:58,347 --> 00:11:58,707 Right? 261 00:11:59,367 --> 00:12:03,147 Um, that this idea of disk staging. 262 00:12:03,207 --> 00:12:06,867 So we're gonna put the, we're gonna do all those incremental backups and 263 00:12:06,867 --> 00:12:10,467 put them up to disk and then we're just gonna spool them over onto tape. 264 00:12:11,047 --> 00:12:13,267 When they first started doing it, we all thought they were crazy 265 00:12:13,297 --> 00:12:14,587 'cause this was so expensive. 266 00:12:14,617 --> 00:12:16,717 This then became less expensive. 267 00:12:17,317 --> 00:12:18,097 Um. 268 00:12:18,547 --> 00:12:27,007 And And then what happened right around 1999, we started partying like it's 1999. 269 00:12:27,607 --> 00:12:30,097 Because someone invented what? 270 00:12:30,832 --> 00:12:31,462 Deduplicated 271 00:12:31,747 --> 00:12:33,487 Deed duplication. 272 00:12:33,667 --> 00:12:33,907 Yeah. 273 00:12:34,912 --> 00:12:35,132 And. 274 00:12:36,292 --> 00:12:40,732 This idea where we're going to find the duplicate blocks of data between 275 00:12:40,732 --> 00:12:43,942 different backup sets and we're gonna, we're just gonna put pointers. 276 00:12:44,272 --> 00:12:46,672 And the pointer thing doesn't really work on tape. 277 00:12:46,702 --> 00:12:51,262 I mean, it can technically work, but think about the idea of you having to 278 00:12:51,262 --> 00:12:53,452 load a hundred tapes to restore one file. 279 00:12:53,512 --> 00:12:55,822 And that's why DDU doesn't really work on tape. 280 00:12:57,382 --> 00:12:57,832 So. 281 00:12:58,972 --> 00:13:03,682 Uh, we went from using disk staging and then we more and more 282 00:13:03,682 --> 00:13:08,422 people started using d, you know, deduplicated disk storage, right? 283 00:13:08,542 --> 00:13:11,452 Avamar was the first company I remember working with right 284 00:13:11,692 --> 00:13:14,602 originally called Undo with two O's. 285 00:13:14,752 --> 00:13:20,452 Really funny that a company that, that Ddu had two o's in their company name, I 286 00:13:20,452 --> 00:13:25,222 think they got too many, too many Razrs, and, and so they changed it to Avamar. 287 00:13:25,987 --> 00:13:31,747 but I think one of the keys, right, that DDU became so popular, like you had 288 00:13:31,747 --> 00:13:33,857 mentioned, it's the cost of disk, right? 289 00:13:33,857 --> 00:13:34,327 disk was 290 00:13:34,327 --> 00:13:35,737 Yeah, yeah, 291 00:13:36,157 --> 00:13:39,847 the difference between disk and tape was significant. 292 00:13:39,847 --> 00:13:40,087 That 293 00:13:40,112 --> 00:13:40,402 yeah, 294 00:13:40,417 --> 00:13:41,857 were like, there's no way 295 00:13:42,292 --> 00:13:42,582 yeah. 296 00:13:43,027 --> 00:13:46,537 backup purposes, I can spend millions of dollars on this. 297 00:13:46,687 --> 00:13:49,302 It, it was literally like two orders of magnitude cheaper. 298 00:13:49,987 --> 00:13:50,377 Right. 299 00:13:51,037 --> 00:13:53,497 And people were like, well, we'll, we'll just deal with it. 300 00:13:53,497 --> 00:13:55,957 And so what this did was it brought disk down. 301 00:13:55,957 --> 00:13:58,892 It's still nowhere near as cheap as tape, but it made it. 302 00:13:59,527 --> 00:14:00,367 Doable. 303 00:14:00,457 --> 00:14:00,877 Right. 304 00:14:01,177 --> 00:14:05,587 And, you know, Avamar was the first one I remember working with back in 1999. 305 00:14:05,677 --> 00:14:10,657 And then, um, uh, data Domain was another big one and they did really well. 306 00:14:10,957 --> 00:14:16,327 And I worked with a number of companies, uh, along the way that did either target 307 00:14:16,327 --> 00:14:20,587 site Dedupe the way data domain did, or source I ddu the way Avamar did. 308 00:14:20,587 --> 00:14:26,767 And, and, and it, it basically made disk feasible. 309 00:14:27,667 --> 00:14:30,787 It made it, it made it not be crazy expensive. 310 00:14:31,057 --> 00:14:38,677 There was another thing that happened, um, that another technological change 311 00:14:38,677 --> 00:14:40,747 that happened right around the same time. 312 00:14:40,747 --> 00:14:42,307 Do you remember what that might have been 313 00:14:45,337 --> 00:14:50,077 that helped make disk backup media more affordable? 314 00:14:51,727 --> 00:14:53,317 Oh, this is like the nearline disks. 315 00:14:54,577 --> 00:14:54,997 Yes. 316 00:14:54,997 --> 00:14:56,107 So what, what do you mean. 317 00:14:56,677 --> 00:15:00,907 Oh, this is because previously enterprise disks were all fiber channel, 318 00:15:01,252 --> 00:15:01,762 Right. 319 00:15:02,737 --> 00:15:05,532 And then they started looking at serial a TA disks. 320 00:15:05,632 --> 00:15:06,022 Yeah. 321 00:15:06,197 --> 00:15:06,487 Yeah. 322 00:15:06,637 --> 00:15:10,807 to lower the cost because these did not need all the performance 323 00:15:10,807 --> 00:15:11,897 of your fiber channel disk. 324 00:15:11,947 --> 00:15:13,447 This is just backup media. 325 00:15:13,747 --> 00:15:16,057 It's your secondary copy. 326 00:15:16,057 --> 00:15:16,357 Right? 327 00:15:16,357 --> 00:15:16,777 You don't 328 00:15:16,822 --> 00:15:17,122 Yeah. 329 00:15:17,197 --> 00:15:18,517 on very expensive storage. 330 00:15:18,847 --> 00:15:22,807 Yeah, so when you coupled the fact that they were using Sada disks with, you know, 331 00:15:22,807 --> 00:15:29,077 less expensive sort of almost consumer grade disks with, um, deduplication, 332 00:15:29,497 --> 00:15:32,737 you put those two things together and backup disks suddenly became way 333 00:15:32,737 --> 00:15:34,717 more affordable than it used to be. 334 00:15:35,557 --> 00:15:37,897 And it came with some really great features. 335 00:15:38,782 --> 00:15:42,382 I'd say one of the best feature a co a couple of them. 336 00:15:42,382 --> 00:15:42,772 Right. 337 00:15:43,132 --> 00:15:46,582 So, 'cause I, you know, I'm, I say good things before I say like how bad it was. 338 00:15:46,972 --> 00:15:47,182 Right. 339 00:15:47,572 --> 00:15:53,002 So one great thing is that it's super easy to do backup verification. 340 00:15:53,662 --> 00:15:54,082 Right. 341 00:15:54,412 --> 00:15:59,362 And, you know, and, and I remember when Veeam came out with, uh, their Sure. 342 00:15:59,362 --> 00:16:02,002 Backup, I think that's the name of it, their Sure backup feature 343 00:16:02,002 --> 00:16:06,952 where you could create a, a recovery group and you could, um. 344 00:16:07,927 --> 00:16:11,887 Um, you could automatically test your backups without 345 00:16:11,887 --> 00:16:13,357 actually having to do a restore. 346 00:16:14,557 --> 00:16:18,277 You, you could basically run your, you could run your VM 347 00:16:18,277 --> 00:16:20,137 from your backups, right? 348 00:16:20,212 --> 00:16:24,232 was an, and also they had the ability to do, to test your backups. 349 00:16:24,232 --> 00:16:24,712 I remember 350 00:16:24,967 --> 00:16:25,267 Yeah. 351 00:16:25,432 --> 00:16:28,372 feature where it was like, Hey, we will spin up everything in 352 00:16:28,372 --> 00:16:30,322 an isolated environment for 353 00:16:30,547 --> 00:16:30,697 Yep. 354 00:16:30,952 --> 00:16:34,372 to bring it up, to test everything, to make sure your backups are actually, 355 00:16:34,762 --> 00:16:37,312 uh, restorable and good to go. 356 00:16:37,312 --> 00:16:39,622 And then we'll spin everything down and you can continue on your way. 357 00:16:40,102 --> 00:16:40,462 Yeah. 358 00:16:40,522 --> 00:16:43,022 And that is only possible with disk. 359 00:16:43,522 --> 00:16:43,912 Right. 360 00:16:44,902 --> 00:16:50,752 Um, and then another thing that, that, that sort of came as a, and 361 00:16:50,752 --> 00:16:54,622 these are all things that modern day users, I think just sort of assume. 362 00:16:55,222 --> 00:17:00,082 That they're there, but they, they're new to those of us that have been 363 00:17:00,082 --> 00:17:06,112 around a few years, and that is the idea that I could replicate backups, 364 00:17:06,472 --> 00:17:06,712 Yep. 365 00:17:06,862 --> 00:17:07,252 right? 366 00:17:07,462 --> 00:17:10,702 So we could have onsite backups and offsite backups without. 367 00:17:11,872 --> 00:17:13,552 Handing tapes to a man in a van. 368 00:17:13,582 --> 00:17:15,382 'cause that's the only way we got data off site. 369 00:17:15,382 --> 00:17:18,352 We made a bunch of tapes, we copied 'em to a bunch of other tapes, 370 00:17:18,442 --> 00:17:21,142 and then we put 'em in a box and we handed it to a man in a van. 371 00:17:21,472 --> 00:17:26,572 Now, because we've really reduced, not just the total storage that we need to 372 00:17:26,572 --> 00:17:31,462 store backups, but the daily amount, like it was less than like a half a 373 00:17:31,462 --> 00:17:36,562 percent of the size of the environment each day, then we could replicate 374 00:17:36,562 --> 00:17:40,282 those backups and so we could have an onsite backup and an offsite backup. 375 00:17:41,032 --> 00:17:43,492 A hundred percent automated. 376 00:17:43,552 --> 00:17:43,942 Right? 377 00:17:43,942 --> 00:17:48,292 Which you may recall in the, the episode that just aired, uh, today as we're 378 00:17:48,292 --> 00:17:53,062 recording this, uh, automation, right? 379 00:17:53,182 --> 00:17:55,702 You can have a hundred percent automated backup. 380 00:17:56,092 --> 00:18:05,092 So backups are so much more reliable than they were back in the day. 381 00:18:05,092 --> 00:18:05,392 What? 382 00:18:05,692 --> 00:18:05,927 Yeah, sure. 383 00:18:06,592 --> 00:18:08,722 Also, the notion of virtual synthetics. 384 00:18:09,592 --> 00:18:10,132 Yes. 385 00:18:10,192 --> 00:18:10,402 Why? 386 00:18:10,552 --> 00:18:12,682 Why don't you talk about what, what's a virtual synthetic? 387 00:18:12,832 --> 00:18:16,342 so like you had alluded to earlier, Curtis, right, with tape, you sort of 388 00:18:16,342 --> 00:18:20,422 had fulls and incrementals, and in order to restore your data, you had to always 389 00:18:20,422 --> 00:18:23,992 go back to the full and then replay all your incrementals till you got to 390 00:18:23,992 --> 00:18:25,222 the point that you needed to get to. 391 00:18:25,882 --> 00:18:26,182 Yeah, 392 00:18:26,707 --> 00:18:31,747 with storage deduplication, you could actually create each 393 00:18:31,747 --> 00:18:34,567 copy being a virtual full copy 394 00:18:34,702 --> 00:18:35,092 right. 395 00:18:35,497 --> 00:18:40,327 your data, such that you only need to go to one copy in order to restore the data. 396 00:18:40,327 --> 00:18:42,097 You don't have to go do all the replaying. 397 00:18:42,367 --> 00:18:44,862 It significantly cuts down on your recovery. 398 00:18:46,057 --> 00:18:47,047 Yeah, agreed. 399 00:18:47,107 --> 00:18:50,107 Uh, and, and there, there were two ways to do that, right? 400 00:18:50,107 --> 00:18:53,557 You could do it through the software, the backup software, where you basically 401 00:18:53,557 --> 00:18:56,092 just sort of create a new full by. 402 00:18:56,722 --> 00:18:59,572 Copying, you've got all the stuff all in one place and you can just 403 00:18:59,572 --> 00:19:01,012 create a new fold by copying it. 404 00:19:01,222 --> 00:19:06,772 But then there were, there were products like data domain, um, that, uh, that they 405 00:19:06,772 --> 00:19:09,082 would just do it with pointers, right? 406 00:19:09,592 --> 00:19:13,612 And, uh, and so you don't, you could create a new fold that, that, that 407 00:19:13,612 --> 00:19:17,212 behaved like a full and look like a full to the backup software, but 408 00:19:17,212 --> 00:19:20,542 you didn't actually do any data movement and that's awesome, right? 409 00:19:20,962 --> 00:19:22,732 Um, now it will be. 410 00:19:23,197 --> 00:19:29,287 Just as I take a stab at this, it will be the most fragmented, full backup 411 00:19:30,307 --> 00:19:32,257 you've you've ever seen in your life. 412 00:19:32,287 --> 00:19:34,147 'cause the bits are all over the place, right? 413 00:19:34,897 --> 00:19:40,837 Uh, but it will behave like a full, and we don't, you know, again, backups are so 414 00:19:40,837 --> 00:19:44,017 much better than they were when, you know, back in the day because back in the day. 415 00:19:44,497 --> 00:19:49,147 The best I, the best design I had back before we went to disk was a 416 00:19:49,147 --> 00:19:52,957 monthly full, a weekly cumulative incremental or differential, depending 417 00:19:52,957 --> 00:19:54,667 on which product we're talking about. 418 00:19:54,697 --> 00:19:56,227 And then a daily incremental. 419 00:19:56,527 --> 00:20:00,547 So a typical restore you would restore the weekly full you would restore, 420 00:20:00,547 --> 00:20:03,907 I'm sorry, you would restore the monthly full, you'd restore the latest 421 00:20:03,907 --> 00:20:09,727 weekly differential, and then you'd restore six, um, incrementals, right? 422 00:20:09,877 --> 00:20:10,267 And. 423 00:20:10,747 --> 00:20:14,467 If any files changed multiple times, you were actually restoring 424 00:20:14,467 --> 00:20:15,907 the same data multiple times. 425 00:20:15,907 --> 00:20:19,207 Now we know exactly what the latest version is and we 426 00:20:19,207 --> 00:20:20,347 can just go straight to it. 427 00:20:20,782 --> 00:20:21,022 Yep. 428 00:20:22,552 --> 00:20:22,732 So 429 00:20:22,897 --> 00:20:25,597 But it all sounds amazing. 430 00:20:25,972 --> 00:20:29,177 why are you, uh, knocking on disk then? 431 00:20:29,572 --> 00:20:29,862 Yeah. 432 00:20:30,642 --> 00:20:33,157 RM minus R star, that's why 433 00:20:36,007 --> 00:20:37,597 DEL star, star. 434 00:20:38,947 --> 00:20:43,057 I I Is there, there, there's a, a recursive option to delete, 435 00:20:43,057 --> 00:20:44,887 isn't there slash r or something? 436 00:20:45,217 --> 00:20:46,477 Or is it back slash r? 437 00:20:46,657 --> 00:20:48,217 but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, 438 00:20:48,637 --> 00:20:49,147 Yeah. 439 00:20:49,867 --> 00:20:52,027 okay, so I agree. 440 00:20:52,867 --> 00:20:54,487 There's no agreeing or disagreeing. 441 00:20:54,487 --> 00:20:55,327 It's a fact. 442 00:20:55,327 --> 00:20:56,077 me, let me, it 443 00:20:56,197 --> 00:20:56,437 Okay. 444 00:20:56,797 --> 00:21:02,857 but are techniques with disk storage to help prevent 445 00:21:03,472 --> 00:21:03,692 Yes, 446 00:21:03,697 --> 00:21:05,017 of situations from happening, 447 00:21:05,372 --> 00:21:07,267 there are tech techniques. 448 00:21:07,957 --> 00:21:08,227 Yeah. 449 00:21:08,527 --> 00:21:13,147 Such as immutable storage or setting like object lock or whatever the 450 00:21:13,147 --> 00:21:15,097 mechanism is that the system supports 451 00:21:15,537 --> 00:21:15,877 Yeah, 452 00:21:15,907 --> 00:21:19,807 order to be able to prevent action 453 00:21:20,317 --> 00:21:27,337 there are many technologies that we have since invented in order to address, 454 00:21:27,577 --> 00:21:29,527 to solve the problem we created. 455 00:21:29,827 --> 00:21:32,407 Uh, I don't dunno if you've ever heard, uh, you know, NIT 456 00:21:32,407 --> 00:21:33,637 we never solve any problems. 457 00:21:33,637 --> 00:21:35,287 We just move them right? 458 00:21:35,692 --> 00:21:41,482 Um, we definitely created new problems, and the worst, I think the worst 459 00:21:41,482 --> 00:21:45,712 sufferers of this, and again, I, I don't want to pick on my friends at 460 00:21:45,867 --> 00:21:51,112 Veeam, okay, but Veeam customers and products like Veeam, it's not just Veeam, 461 00:21:51,232 --> 00:21:51,652 Mm-hmm. 462 00:21:52,162 --> 00:21:58,852 basically the default setup, you put the backups in, like e slash backups, 463 00:21:59,167 --> 00:21:59,437 Yeah. 464 00:21:59,452 --> 00:22:02,722 and then a a, a threat actor comes there and says. 465 00:22:03,427 --> 00:22:04,027 Look at that. 466 00:22:04,087 --> 00:22:08,797 E slash backups, R minus R, you know, well, I guess delete, delete 467 00:22:08,827 --> 00:22:11,557 startup star slash RI don't know. 468 00:22:11,557 --> 00:22:13,267 I should really look that up anyway. 469 00:22:13,267 --> 00:22:14,677 I know there's a recursive option, right? 470 00:22:14,707 --> 00:22:16,987 Or they, or if they have console access, they just right 471 00:22:16,987 --> 00:22:18,157 click on it, delete it, right. 472 00:22:18,427 --> 00:22:21,337 And then empty, empty, uh, recycle bin. 473 00:22:21,772 --> 00:22:21,952 Yeah. 474 00:22:21,997 --> 00:22:22,057 Yeah. 475 00:22:23,317 --> 00:22:25,987 And so that's the real prop. 476 00:22:25,987 --> 00:22:26,587 And, and. 477 00:22:27,907 --> 00:22:36,367 I remember, um, you know, I remember this, um, when I was at Veeam on many years ago. 478 00:22:36,547 --> 00:22:39,547 Um, you know, Veeam really acknowledged this, right? 479 00:22:39,547 --> 00:22:43,657 It, it was a difficult session, I think, for them to, to sort of tell people, 480 00:22:43,657 --> 00:22:47,107 Hey, this is a, this is a threat and we have this 'cause you remember, 481 00:22:47,137 --> 00:22:49,087 you remember the, what was the Veeam? 482 00:22:49,567 --> 00:22:51,577 The, no, what was the, no, no, no. 483 00:22:52,027 --> 00:22:55,537 What was the Veeam uh, motto? 484 00:22:58,957 --> 00:23:00,097 We make it easy. 485 00:23:00,772 --> 00:23:01,702 It just works. 486 00:23:02,662 --> 00:23:02,992 Right? 487 00:23:02,992 --> 00:23:03,682 It just works. 488 00:23:03,682 --> 00:23:04,072 Right. 489 00:23:04,282 --> 00:23:06,202 And so they were like, it just works. 490 00:23:07,372 --> 00:23:11,392 Having said that we need to, we need to do this thing. 491 00:23:11,392 --> 00:23:11,752 Right? 492 00:23:11,812 --> 00:23:14,182 And, and they've done a good job at responding to this threat. 493 00:23:14,212 --> 00:23:14,602 Right? 494 00:23:14,812 --> 00:23:16,372 But, uh, 495 00:23:16,657 --> 00:23:16,942 It takes 496 00:23:17,032 --> 00:23:19,632 there, there was a, there was a time there where, you know, 497 00:23:19,707 --> 00:23:20,947 a lot of people were attacking. 498 00:23:21,787 --> 00:23:26,407 Windows based backups, the biggest of which, uh, is Veeam, I still think 499 00:23:26,587 --> 00:23:30,487 they're probably the biggest Windows backup software, uh, in terms of 500 00:23:30,487 --> 00:23:32,077 number of installations for sure. 501 00:23:32,437 --> 00:23:38,287 Um, and so we just need to acknowledge, I I, I, that's my goal of this episode 502 00:23:38,707 --> 00:23:43,807 is I need you to understand the risk that your backups are under, right? 503 00:23:43,807 --> 00:23:48,517 We talk about this in other episodes, that backups are the number one target. 504 00:23:49,372 --> 00:23:55,642 Your, uh, of your threat actor, if they get, uh, an initial access, the first 505 00:23:55,642 --> 00:23:58,822 thing they're gonna do is try to figure out what your backup software is, and 506 00:23:58,822 --> 00:24:00,772 they're gonna try to take it out, right? 507 00:24:01,342 --> 00:24:06,082 And you can, you can address this, but again, the first thing we 508 00:24:06,082 --> 00:24:09,802 have to admit that we're powerless over, you know, step one, right? 509 00:24:09,802 --> 00:24:14,482 Admit that we're powerless over threat actors, uh, and, you know, appeal to 510 00:24:14,482 --> 00:24:18,022 a higher power of, uh, immutability. 511 00:24:20,647 --> 00:24:23,707 Of calling it Veeam, call it like networker or Avamar 512 00:24:23,707 --> 00:24:24,667 or something like that, 513 00:24:24,952 --> 00:24:27,232 Oh, like re rename, renaming the folders. 514 00:24:27,577 --> 00:24:28,927 and your process names. 515 00:24:30,142 --> 00:24:32,662 Rename it like, definitely not backups. 516 00:24:33,442 --> 00:24:35,572 E like, don't look over here. 517 00:24:36,442 --> 00:24:41,272 Um, e slash um, pork recipes. 518 00:24:42,367 --> 00:24:46,027 Um, you know, this is what, what do we call, what do we call 519 00:24:46,027 --> 00:24:48,157 that, that, that there are people that do that kind of stuff. 520 00:24:48,907 --> 00:24:52,267 Well, I was gonna say security by obscurity, but you are, you are correct. 521 00:24:52,267 --> 00:24:56,887 Obfuscation is definitely the i, the, the formal term, and you should do that. 522 00:24:56,887 --> 00:24:57,187 Right. 523 00:24:57,367 --> 00:25:00,577 These are, this is on the list of things that you should do. 524 00:25:01,267 --> 00:25:05,137 One of them that you've heard me talk about is, uh, and we're gonna talk this 525 00:25:05,137 --> 00:25:07,237 more about this in other episodes, but. 526 00:25:08,017 --> 00:25:10,897 Is to get the backups out of user space. 527 00:25:10,957 --> 00:25:15,727 It should not be in eco and back slash backups or slash backups, 528 00:25:15,727 --> 00:25:17,197 whatever, whatever os you're running. 529 00:25:18,277 --> 00:25:23,137 Is the other thing, also, don't run your backup software as root. 530 00:25:24,997 --> 00:25:27,847 Well, but you kind of need to, right? 531 00:25:27,997 --> 00:25:32,347 It needs to be by the way, your, your Linux is showing your, your Unix. 532 00:25:32,347 --> 00:25:32,707 Uh. 533 00:25:33,172 --> 00:25:33,252 Hmm. 534 00:25:35,977 --> 00:25:39,427 Like, you know, the fact that you're, well, we're both, we're both, you 535 00:25:39,427 --> 00:25:45,997 know, Lennox recovery, uh, recovering Lennox people, um, of course, but 536 00:25:46,272 --> 00:25:47,917 do, do you remember the world before? 537 00:25:48,067 --> 00:25:48,667 Lennox? 538 00:25:49,597 --> 00:25:49,837 No. 539 00:25:50,827 --> 00:25:51,097 Okay. 540 00:25:51,127 --> 00:25:53,347 Lennox was the thing by the time you were okay. 541 00:25:53,647 --> 00:25:55,087 Because I remember the world before Lennox. 542 00:25:55,147 --> 00:25:55,387 Yeah. 543 00:25:55,837 --> 00:25:57,427 I remember the world before Windows too. 544 00:25:57,967 --> 00:25:58,507 I do too. 545 00:25:59,137 --> 00:25:59,587 Yeah. 546 00:25:59,677 --> 00:26:00,547 And I remember like. 547 00:26:00,662 --> 00:26:03,842 all the fancy, nonstop kernel systems my dad used to work on. 548 00:26:04,312 --> 00:26:04,762 Oh yeah. 549 00:26:05,062 --> 00:26:05,422 Yeah. 550 00:26:05,692 --> 00:26:06,532 Your dad's old. 551 00:26:07,162 --> 00:26:08,752 Um, tell him I said hey. 552 00:26:09,352 --> 00:26:09,892 Anyway. 553 00:26:09,922 --> 00:26:12,292 Yeah, so there are, there are a number of things that we can do and we'll 554 00:26:12,292 --> 00:26:16,252 talk about them in other episodes, but just a, just a quick idea is one is 555 00:26:16,252 --> 00:26:18,442 to get the backups out of user space. 556 00:26:18,742 --> 00:26:23,482 So if you can see your backups as econ back slash backups, this is a problem 557 00:26:23,947 --> 00:26:24,307 Anyone 558 00:26:24,382 --> 00:26:24,592 the. 559 00:26:24,607 --> 00:26:25,207 see that too. 560 00:26:25,402 --> 00:26:26,602 Yeah, exactly right. 561 00:26:26,662 --> 00:26:32,662 Um, but if you're able to put it on, um, basically immutable, truly immutable 562 00:26:32,662 --> 00:26:37,942 storage, meaning again, the standard is if you can't delete the backups, 563 00:26:37,942 --> 00:26:39,622 then they can't delete the backups. 564 00:26:39,712 --> 00:26:41,842 If you could delete it, then maybe they can. 565 00:26:42,022 --> 00:26:42,352 Right. 566 00:26:43,672 --> 00:26:45,517 Um, but, um. 567 00:26:46,852 --> 00:26:49,222 You know, immutability, immutability, immutability. 568 00:26:49,282 --> 00:26:49,612 Right. 569 00:26:49,612 --> 00:26:52,972 You know, it keeps coming up in, you know, every episode, but 570 00:26:52,972 --> 00:26:56,662 it's like, if you don't have your backups on a truly immutable storage 571 00:26:56,662 --> 00:26:59,722 device, um, then this is a problem. 572 00:26:59,902 --> 00:27:00,292 Right? 573 00:27:00,382 --> 00:27:04,672 And you're just, uh, leaving the, it's sort of like, if we're being chased by 574 00:27:04,672 --> 00:27:07,897 a bear, I don't have to outrun the bear. 575 00:27:09,892 --> 00:27:10,837 You just have torun me. 576 00:27:11,512 --> 00:27:12,562 I just have to cover from you. 577 00:27:13,582 --> 00:27:14,002 Okay. 578 00:27:14,392 --> 00:27:16,582 And, and what, what, what does that have to do with this? 579 00:27:16,732 --> 00:27:20,992 You don't necessarily have to beat every, you know, threat actor. 580 00:27:21,232 --> 00:27:25,282 You just have to be less, uh, appealing than the other person. 581 00:27:25,342 --> 00:27:25,792 Right. 582 00:27:26,362 --> 00:27:32,212 Um, and um, so there, there are techniques that we cover. 583 00:27:32,272 --> 00:27:36,982 Uh, by the way, I haven't mentioned, uh, my upcoming book, uh, how to, um. 584 00:27:37,072 --> 00:27:37,462 that's. 585 00:27:37,522 --> 00:27:40,072 Oh, the, the one that, yeah, the one that's right there. 586 00:27:40,942 --> 00:27:45,382 Um, the, uh, learning ransomware responsive recovery that I wrote with 587 00:27:45,382 --> 00:27:49,282 Dr. Mike Sailor, who is a blue team expert, uh, fighting a good fight 588 00:27:49,342 --> 00:27:50,812 out there in the trenches every day. 589 00:27:51,262 --> 00:27:55,072 And, um, uh, coming to a shelf near you. 590 00:27:55,192 --> 00:27:58,882 Uh, you can read, you can, you can actually see the early version if you're 591 00:27:58,882 --> 00:28:01,882 a o' rally learning platform, uh, person. 592 00:28:01,882 --> 00:28:02,932 You can see that right now. 593 00:28:03,682 --> 00:28:05,362 Uh, and then the, the. 594 00:28:05,977 --> 00:28:09,037 Regular version will be coming out in March of 2026. 595 00:28:10,357 --> 00:28:11,917 So, all right, so that's the thing. 596 00:28:11,947 --> 00:28:15,187 disk is awesome, except when it's not. 597 00:28:15,457 --> 00:28:18,067 Um, just like tape is awesome, except when it's not. 598 00:28:18,292 --> 00:28:22,162 yeah, you need to understand the limitations of different technologies 599 00:28:22,162 --> 00:28:25,252 and use it in the appropriate way, and then make sure you're 600 00:28:25,252 --> 00:28:26,782 able to cover the weaknesses. 601 00:28:27,682 --> 00:28:29,542 Man, man's got to know his limitations. 602 00:28:33,897 --> 00:28:35,122 Oh, Curtis. 603 00:28:35,227 --> 00:28:36,037 Dirty Harry. 604 00:28:36,877 --> 00:28:37,687 Love that movie. 605 00:28:38,197 --> 00:28:42,847 Um, I can't remember if I shot five or six. 606 00:28:43,657 --> 00:28:44,797 Do you feel lucky? 607 00:28:45,127 --> 00:28:50,287 Anyway, sorry if, if you don't know what I'm talking about, that would be early. 608 00:28:50,287 --> 00:28:53,917 Clint Eastwood, dirty Harry, uh, set. 609 00:28:53,917 --> 00:28:54,427 Where? 610 00:28:57,337 --> 00:28:57,967 Come on. 611 00:28:59,647 --> 00:29:01,417 All the dirty Harry movies are set. 612 00:29:02,437 --> 00:29:03,397 I don't know. 613 00:29:03,637 --> 00:29:04,327 San Francisco, dude. 614 00:29:04,957 --> 00:29:05,227 Oh. 615 00:29:06,412 --> 00:29:06,802 Yeah. 616 00:29:07,852 --> 00:29:14,032 Um, what the 44 Magnum, this is the 44 Magnum most powerful handgun in the world. 617 00:29:14,032 --> 00:29:15,592 Blow your head clean off. 618 00:29:17,422 --> 00:29:21,052 So question you gotta ask yourself is, do I feel lucky? 619 00:29:24,707 --> 00:29:27,107 I actually re-watched that just not that long ago. 620 00:29:27,232 --> 00:29:27,892 what I was gonna say. 621 00:29:27,892 --> 00:29:30,502 You know those lines too well. 622 00:29:30,532 --> 00:29:35,062 Well, I wa, I mean, I watched that movie many times and that's one of the most 623 00:29:35,062 --> 00:29:37,522 quotable movie lines, you know, ever. 624 00:29:38,272 --> 00:29:38,872 Um, 625 00:29:39,127 --> 00:29:40,897 is amazing that you have not seen 626 00:29:41,512 --> 00:29:41,872 what 627 00:29:42,487 --> 00:29:43,327 Kung Fu Panta, 628 00:29:44,242 --> 00:29:46,107 I have seen Kung fu Panta. 629 00:29:46,297 --> 00:29:47,107 but not enough. 630 00:29:47,107 --> 00:29:47,527 You can't 631 00:29:47,737 --> 00:29:48,237 Not enough. 632 00:29:48,442 --> 00:29:51,532 Not as many as you, how many times have you think you've seen Kung fu Panda? 633 00:29:53,467 --> 00:29:55,357 The 200 something. 634 00:29:55,877 --> 00:29:57,082 I, I don't, I don't. 635 00:29:57,772 --> 00:29:59,512 I don't get it anyway. 636 00:29:59,572 --> 00:30:00,112 All right. 637 00:30:00,232 --> 00:30:05,282 People, disk based backups are great, but, uh, they do have one 638 00:30:05,282 --> 00:30:10,172 major limitation and we made things better, but then we made things worse. 639 00:30:10,292 --> 00:30:12,992 And the, the threat actors are coming for you, backups. 640 00:30:12,992 --> 00:30:16,922 You've got to make sure that they can't get to them. 641 00:30:18,572 --> 00:30:19,082 All right. 642 00:30:19,472 --> 00:30:21,212 Uh, thanks persona for the chat. 643 00:30:21,912 --> 00:30:22,132 No. 644 00:30:22,277 --> 00:30:24,737 Then make sure you pick up Curtis's latest book. 645 00:30:27,332 --> 00:30:28,382 Persona's name's in it. 646 00:30:29,282 --> 00:30:29,942 Um, 647 00:30:32,162 --> 00:30:33,302 that is a wrap. 648 00:30:36,303 --> 00:30:40,983 The backup wrap up is written, recorded and produced by me w Curtis Preston. 649 00:30:41,553 --> 00:30:46,353 If you need backup or Dr. Consulting content generation or expert witness 650 00:30:46,353 --> 00:30:48,903 work, check out backup central.com. 651 00:30:49,653 --> 00:30:52,773 You can also find links from my O'Reilly Books on the same website. 652 00:30:53,433 --> 00:30:57,543 Remember, this is an independent podcast and any opinions that you 653 00:30:57,543 --> 00:30:59,433 hear are those of the speaker. 654 00:30:59,498 --> 00:31:01,358 And not necessarily an employer. 655 00:31:02,258 --> 00:31:02,978 Thanks for listening. 656 00:31:17,133 --> 00:31:17,253 I.