Hi, Lynn. Welcome to What's Your Next Podcast.

Hello, Laura. Great to be here.

So happy to have you here. Tell us a little bit about yourself.

I have been writing books for 30 years. I started out in children's books when my kids were small. I had three kids in four years time, and it was all I could do, but my real dream was to write about people in history. I'm really intrigued by, the people behind the legends

Yeah.

I have found, they are just so not the same. So, I have been able through time to be working on this. I have, I always lose track. I think this will be my eighth book of historical fiction and for adults not. Not adult books. That always sounds so, X-rated. But anyhow, 'cause I really did enjoy my years as a children's writer, but this is really the real me writing about people and situations that I really want to understand because that's how I get to understand them. I write a book around them.

I love this idea of writing a book about it because it gives you the opportunity to have a hyper fixation, have a topic, have a person or era or specific, and

True.

being able, because you're writing a book, you gotta research and you gotta look for all the rabbit holes that it will take you on the meandering, and then your job is a writer. To have a murder wall in some ways, where they're solving a murder. I think of it like I'm an investigator and so it's like how to connect the dots and how to make the story to not only move forward, but also interesting enough that readers who just immerse themself and there's a sense of historical fiction can be boring. And it's no, it's fascinating. It's like we repeat history so many times.

Right, right. Well, I feel like people who think history is boring just. Don't know much history 'cause it, what I love is the more that you know, the more it connects and it's just a big puzzle. And I find that my books, they all have a connection. In fact, most of them in the previous book, even when I was writing it, I didn't know it. But I will mention the person in my book before the one that's coming out, the Woman with the Cure, was the last book I mentioned, Marilyn Monroe. I didn't know I was gonna write about her when I mentioned it. I had a mention in the Woman With a Cure. I mentioned polio. Anyhow, it all does connect and I do follow these, go down these rabbit holes and totally enjoy that. Again, it's like a big. Puzzle. Some people have said well, it's like being a history detective. I like that idea too. It's really much the same. It's just hunting down these leads and putting them together.

Well, I'm an investigator for my trade, so I can

Ah,

you it is

Is this.

see, when you get a lead and you're like, what is this coming? And then actually uncovering them and the research it takes and looking not just books and oral histories, but looking at evidence and.

Exactly.

And then your job as a investigator is not just, you have all this evidence, it's actually how to build a case or how to solve the evidence, so it's like you have critical thinking and you have a lot of curiosity. Like you kind of have to just go figure out okay, but does this make sense or. Is it, is the evidence here or what is happening? I think in your case it's kinda like an archeologist looking at the what happened and then share the history moving forward and make it in a way that feels engaging

That is the trick on top of it all because I agree completely that it is like being an investigator and taking all these clues and seeing if they're red herrings or how they fit together. Just looking at this larger picture to put together. My situation, it's a story and your situation, it's a case and there's usually a thesis. I always have a question that I start with that, that leads me through all this. I have to answer this question.

Yeah, so talking about your books, you Got Women Were Brilliant, which is a story between Monroe and Eve.

Arnold

and it's an interesting story of two women who are coming together and we hear from Marilyn Monroe from when she was Norma Jean to. What Marilyn Monroe was and Marilyn Monroe is like such a iconic, celebrity, like the OG celebrity that we, we have replicated over and not just the good things, but also the bad things and how people behave in the parasocial relationships. So talk to us about this top subject, about what made you lead, go down this rabbit hole. It is a recent history, which I love. Although it's been quite some time, so it's 70 years, six, it's,

The year that this is coming out, 2026 is the hundredth year of Marilyn Monroe. She was born in 1926, so this is her hundredth year anniversary. And there's celebrations around the world, exhibit exhibitions for her and things like that. In fact, I will be I'm hoping to go to one in England.

Talk

up on her.

Talk about what led you to talk to me

Ah,

as a subject matter.

gotcha. I got so excited about the centennial. Okay. What led me to talk about Marilyn, or want to know. To write this book about her. I have been intrigued with her since I was a little kid. I was really little eight years old when I saw her for the first time in seven year itch. I saw it on tv. They played it, it must have been the year after she died. Anyhow I saw her on there and she just, I felt. So worried for her because everybody, all the men, everybody was kinda after her and she's just flitting around and somehow she gets away from them. But I worried about her. I thought, everybody's always after her. And I also thought, with how sexy she was and how, everybody was, wanting her, I thought, is that how women are supposed to be? The whole thing kind of confused and worried me. So as I got older, I really wanted to write about her because as I said, that's how I understand people. I really want to know. I write about them because you're forced into doing all the research. So anyhow I wanted to know about her, but you know, there's a lot of books about her and I thought, what is the way in. And finally couple years ago, I just, I thought, you know what about all the photographers? Because Marilyn Monroe is nothing, if not an image that was, that we all know it's her photographs that have sold her. And so I thought what about all the women that photographed her? What did they have to say about her? Well, I found out there's only one woman that she ever agreed to sit for, only one out of all those photographers. And I thought that was super interesting in its own way. But I wanted to know, what it was like between these two women because once I looked at their photos the photos that Eve Arnold is this one, photographer's name. Once I looked at her photos, I saw. There's this different side of Marilyn, she looked completely different than the photos that we're familiar with. There's a few that she posed for, but even they looked different and I had to know what was it about them that their pictures were different and together than anyone else's. And some people say, well, it's just real obvious is a woman doing it, but. It wasn't just that, it was that they had this relationship and that's what I explored in this book, 'cause it, Eve actually did not want to photograph her 'cause she was trying to get her career off, a very slow start because she was part of the Magnum agency, which was the biggest photo agency in the world is worldwide and it had all the biggest names and she was part of that. But she was always asked to photograph women. And they were wives of the famous men or movie stars. And so when Marilyn came to her actually and wanted her to photograph her, and Marilyn, and she didn't wanna do it, Eve did not wanna do it because it wouldn't enhance her career, but did convince her after a really bumpy start that you'll read in the book. They went on to have this relationship that both of their,

I love this idea of exploring relationship among women, especially women that has been such a icon for the male gaze and having this idea of another person who's taken the photograph, not just because she's a. Women, but to be able to connect with and have this, from a female gaze, that's a very different take on things.

mm-hmm.

to have, and to share a more vulnerable side or a different side, because we're not sexualizing, we're, that's not the purpose. I think that's what makes you unique and for you to explore this relationship. Why, this happened and it's, I, the fact that Jean or Marilyn sought her out. And how to quarantine some ways. This relationship, it's

Mm-hmm.

because it, when we think about Marilyn Monroe, we think of everything's handed down to you. Like you don't have to work hard. You get so much attention. Like things are, like, celebrities are like, everything's free. And it's like you kind of have to work a little bit more to really get to that point.

Though, I feel like that is Marilyn was option to that. I feel like her fame. Was not created by the studio or by other people. It was her. In fact, the studio, even though she made them money hand over fist, they really hated her. I think it's because she did have power and they didn't have the power over her. And so she is really responsible for it's Norma Jean, creating Marilyn Monroe and infusing Marilyn Monroe with this. Persona that people believe this Marilyn Monroe. And I think too, that's what it was so important for her to do with Eve. She actually let Norma Jean out, she actually let Norma Jean appear and you, that's why she looks so different. See Norma Jean. It's almost scary how different she looks and you see her and you, I loved her. I loved her. When you look at Eve Arnold's pictures of her, she's a this bright young woman, and you think about all that. She succeeded. Coming from, nothing worse than nothing. She had a horrific childhood, all those foster homes and being in an orphanage, and her mother was schizophrenic and never loving to her. She had to give her up when she was, when Marilyn was just a couple years old. But so Marilyn had no love really, but yet she. This character that everybody loved. And when you see this Norma Jean behind it all, it's so moving. And I hope this book brings this Norma Jean to readers and they could see her. 'cause I think she's incredible. Now, was she unstable? Of course she had to be from her background, she had, this was built on sand. Her whole persona was totally built on sand and she was very needy.

Mm-hmm.

If, just knowing this and knowing what she achieved I just respect her all the more, plus I go into the book, there's behind it all, she had some physical problems. I don't know if I wanna give those away. Here, but they really influenced her life. Her health did,

Yeah.

and this totally affected her acting and the way she was around people at times, and when, people say, oh, she was late and all this stuff. Part of that sometimes was her crippling lack of self-confidence. 'cause deep down Norma Jean knew that she was just a dirty girl, as I call her in the book. And but she also was very ill. And she, and all this, on top of all this is she could not sleep. She. That was one thing that Eve noticed and remarked about in her book that she wrote about Marilyn. And it's really a picture book, but she wrote about their relationship and about Marilyn's is a little biography as well. And actually that's what I base my book around is. Arnold's book it's all right there. I just had to put together the pieces and take her pieces and go beyond them for that, for Marilyn.

It's brilliant. I, as you were talking about Regina, I was like, oh, that's trauma. That's trauma. That's trauma. And it's, a childhood trauma can reflect so bad. They can make such an impact in your adulthood and sleep is an issue. Showing up late, like being needy, not believing there is unconditional love for you because you didn't have it. And how we act, how we react on things. And so building this persona in some ways is a safety for neuroma gene to not having to face the world because.

True.

the world, she was just not, she was one of many and she was not loved, or that's the message she received in her childhood that she owned it. And so, yeah, it's fascinating to see how far, people have come, like how much they overcome? They're scrappy

Mm-hmm.

When things are being told no. There's like this idea of having the we're against you and then basically have the world fall in love with you

Yeah,

Yeah.

I wondered if one of the reasons she wanted. Eve who was known, she's already making a name for showing the inner person that people don't see. I wonder if Marilyn really wanted Eve because she wanted to know if the world would love her if she showed her real self.

Yeah.

Because like you say, she just wanted to be loved and she hid behind Marilyn and everybody loved Marilyn, but would they ever love Norma Jean

Yeah,

and

In some ways, you're providing a love letter to Norm Jean, like you're writing in like a place where you human humanize the person and to see the floss and the strengths and everything, and we get to see a more holistic. View of what we think we know. I think we have lived in an image of photograph because as you said, it's all photograph, at least there's some movies here and there, but we haven't heard her voice like to like truly her voice, not the Marilyn Monroe voice. And I think you're providing, like a place where it's let's look at a different angle. Let's look at this relationship and this place where it's like the mass is not on. The mass is a, it's a TRO horse. It's driving you to get to where you need to go,

Mm-hmm.

see the individual.

Yes. Yes. And you brought up a point about the voice. This Marilyn voice was totally conjured and when she was really comfortable, she didn't use that voice. And I like to imagine in my book, tried to describe how she really talked, how she would talk. And she did try to drop that voice. She was always trying to grow. She was always trying to get out the Maryland mold. Frankly, she made that. It was great. So she was once it, she became famous and had come in with this Trojan horse persona. She wanted to. Be herself. She tried to sneak out and be herself, so she decided, she made a big announcement in 55. She left her studio and said that she wanted to be a serious actress. And so she, at that time, she tried to drop the soft voice. She refused for. Photographers would always tell her to bend over, over, they wanted to take shots of her. She refused to play along with the Maryland thing for quite a while, starting in 55 and to see how that went. There are a few interviews, but the ones I heard, she actually didn't talk much. I think she was really afraid, gonna do the soft voice so much, but she was afraid to speak, revealing herself was very scary and I can totally understand that. 'cause she knew that she was loved for Marilyn and she never was loved growing up. And so it's like she did not expect for Norma Jean to get that love though.

Yeah. It's just so fascinating. Thank you for writing about her

Oh, thank you.

I think it's powerful because it's a woman's history is something that's often ignored and the way the mystery of women and the expectation that we are supposed to be certain way and we're supposed to have a center live certain values, certain specific things. We're supposed to serve our purpose for somebody, for men. And actually I think, I love historical fiction writers who focus on female stories and women's voices and humanizes them challenging the archetype and actually providing a voice and providing examples. Future generations gonna look back and be like, okay, this was not okay, or this was, this is actually, we should not repeat itself. Because

Yeah.

Norma Jean's and Marilyn Monroe, we've seen so many celebrity archetypes who have fallen the same way. And some of them are fighting back and some of them are doing different voice. When I think about Britney's Pierce as a contemporary, for my time, her downfall, was a conservatorship and it's, but. seeing, like there's a, there might be a different path other than that, but

Mm-hmm.

Brooks, like yours, it gives us an example of what we may think. It's not acceptable and we can actually make a change in the future.

Yes. And actually Eve had her own issues as a woman. So, the story serves to show difficulties women had that they still have. But in the fifties, for example, Eve. Sixties and seventies, eighties. Anyhow, Eve was one of the few women documentary photographers, one of the few women photographers period, and she just had the hardest time, getting her toe hold and in fact, she got her first. She got her first solo exhibition when she was age 68. And here she was, she had photos all in all the magazines everywhere. She photographed everybody, and she didn't have her first solo exhibition until 1968 in the Brooklyn Museum. Of all things. But her and then later on she was made, it's an OBE sort of like being knighted by the English queen, and she got every photography award possible, but they came to her late in life after she had to prove herself and prove herself. And one of the cool things though, she found her strength. I think through Marilyn that being a woman and showing a woman's point of view is very valuable. There's, 51% of the world is are women. And so, their view is different and important. And I think she fought against that actually. Until Marilyn and understanding that the women's point of view is unique and important and can show more emotion that she fought against her women's subjects, but they actually, they're half the world, they're important subjects too. So it just took a long time for all this to hit for her.

I love this idea of like really looking for different women and really seeing what it was like and what it is still there's, we got privileges, but sometimes there's rights are been taken away. On that, our predecessor fought really hard to get those, and I think it's powerful to see how far we've come, but how. How recent it was, because this is not, I still think I grew up in the like I'm an eighties kid, so I still think the fifties is like 30 years ago. I know it's been a while, but I'm like, it's 30 years ago. It's oh no stuff. But it's been like, it's still recent. It's not we're not talking about 18th century literature, the historical facts we're talking about the 1950s it's.

Right. Yeah, I hear you. I feel that too because I just turned 70. To me that seems like a crazy number because, all this time has passed, but it doesn't seem like it, so time is a funny thing

time is a funny thing.

and maybe that's. That's one of the things that's fascinating about history. It just happened. It, as you mentioned earlier, it repeats itself and, we should be paying attention to it because it has lessons for us that we never learn.

No, we haven't learned, like honestly I feel like it takes a lot of courage to take a different choice. And so it's hard to make a different, so that's why sometimes we repeat self. I remember hearing the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results. It's like we're so confu so like into autopilot. They were like. is how it needs to be. And then you really wait, I'm not getting the result I wanted to. And I think that's what history really reminds us is like we're living

Yes.

anxiety, so,

Yep.

so let's talk some book combinations. What type of books do you read?

I read. Literary fiction, and that is, I'm an English major, and once you're an English major, you're always an English major. And so I love literature and that's, I have taken very few writing classes. Really I just have learned by my literature classes.

Yeah.

and I specialize in British literature. The Brits still to this day really have. Are magical with their words. I love Ian, and I'm reading him right now, his newest book, but you had asked earlier about my book recommendations and they're all American thinking about it.

So. I

yeah.

I think you're American.

Yeah.

You can always come back in later for an episode to talk about British literature, so you're more than welcome to. So it is okay. We're. I know British are smarter. I'm, I am like talking to a friend. I was like, yeah, you're like, you're British. You sounds smarter. I know it's not true because I watched Love Island and those 20 year olds are not smart. But the accent makes them smarter,

The accent's beautiful and. A lot of the English writers just their way of using words is

yes.

beautiful and that's why I like them. And I liked broken Country. I like broken country. I think. It takes place in England.

Claire Leslie Hall,

Right. And I love, who is the writer who did the marriage portrait? Didn't she do O'Farrell?

Yeah.

Yes. She's amazing. Hamden.

Her biography of the 13, nine? She almost died.

no.

Oh, it's, I think it's, I am. Sounds like it's like she had 13 brushes with death. It's a fascinating, it is such a, like a memoir. It's such a great one.

Okay. Thank you.

fiction.

Yeah.

and it's like brushes with death.

Wow.

What a powerful concept

well, she's so amazing anyhow. And Kate Atkinson, that's another one. So, I could sit, yeah. If you give me a minute, I could tell you the many British writers that I love, Kate Atkinson. Oh she's amazing in everything she does. She does historical fiction, some, and what was it? God in chains or God and love, life after life. I think it was one. And then she had all her mysteries, or I guess their thrillers with the Brody

Yeah.

anyhow she's so versatile. But thinking about other people that I recommend and, the first ones I went to are ones who really. Feed me like as I mentioned, didn't take a lot of classes and I don't teach writing, but I really feel like I get fed with really good writing, good books, and the ones I love in particular, I always, I put 'em down and I pick 'em right back up and read 'em again. Trying to figure out how they did it. And the funny thing is, they're always so darn good. I forget to, to look for, how they did it. I could never figure it out. I just go through it again. I loved lovers and writers. That was one I hardly even put it down before I picked it up and read it again. And I think I did it three times. Never figured out how she did it. Really good writing is magic, but it was worth reading several times in a row.

Yeah. Yes. I love, I actually just got recommended hard, the lover. It's been recommended for I don't know, like five people. They're like, you need to read this book. So I, I trust going back to Lily King's stock list is just a spectacular,

is an amazing woo.

So,

that came out. Her euphoria came out when I was just starting to do my historical fiction books and. I just was so inspired by her. She just created, this world is taking off on Margaret Mead, but you know, the language, like she invented a language and

Yeah.

Anthropological studies and customs and things. It was just amazing.

Oh my gosh, that sounds so good.

Have you not read euphoria? Oh, you must.

I have

It's so good.

I'm like, that sounds even better because this fur gonna make me cry. Because I was already told that the new one will make me cry,

Oh yeah. Actually the new one I think was such, it was a bit of a tear jerker

Yeah.

Writers and lovers better. I cried for that. Good books I cry for and, it's like a mark of a good book, but that one I felt like there was maybe more crying than I

Yes.

to do at that moment.

Yeah, it's.

It didn't land and resonate so much writers and lovers did.

I am gonna bump both because you know what, writers and lovers than me four are probably easier to find from the library.

I love sharing the little details. That's one thing I like about being a writer is just sharing the details. I learned I can't wait for people to read this because it was something so fascinating.

Yes. I love this. Oh, thank you. And thank you for a reminder.

So

Lynn, tell us, we're gonna find online.

Oh, it's just lynn cullen.com.

Awesome. Thank

Yes.

being in the show.

Yes, my pleasure. I could talk all day. So thank you so much for having me and your great questions.

Awesome.

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