Eddie: Welcome to episode 34 of the web joy podcast.
I'm your host Eddie.
And in this podcast, we interview guests about their origin stories and
what makes them excited and joyful to be part of the tech community.
I hope you enjoy today's episode.
The little pieces, all fitting together with Nicole Frank.
Welcome to another episode of Web Joy.
Today I have Nicole Frank with me.
Nicole, say hi to everyone
Nicole: listening.
Hi everyone.
I'm so excited to be here, so thank you for having me.
Eddie: Awesome.
It's my pleasure.
So, Kind of who are you, what do you do where you work, you know,
a brief rundown of yourself.
Nicole: So I am a, uh, senior UX designer now referred to as a product designer,
which is kind of confusing and I know a lot of people are in the industry, are
kind of confused by the title switching.
I work at a small startup based in Omaha, Nebraska, but I am located in Connecticut.
So I am leading the tax experience side of our application.
I also run my own kind of personal brand on Twitter.
Nicole Frank and I try to help others who are breaking into user experience with
like general things where it's like maybe you're applying for your first UX role.
How best to do that and try to guide people and give them some quick
tips that I wish I knew at the time.
So I really like that kind of community in helping out
Eddie: others.
That's great.
It seems like you keep pretty busy with all of
Nicole: that.
I do, yeah.
It's like a full-time job, but it's like a labor of love.
It's not like anything where it's like, oh my God, I have to.
Go and tweet this today, or I have to help out this person.
No, it's honestly kind of the best thing that I've ran
Eddie: into.
Well, you're investing into others, kind of helping them get their start.
So that's an interesting segue to like, Hey, how did you get your start?
Right?
Where were you, what were you doing?
When you kind of realized, I wanna get involved in tech, I want to do product
design, UX design, and um, what has that journey kind of looked like for you?
Nicole: It's been a long journey.
So remember like the early two thousands and like, I was like a kid and there was
like, you could design your own MySpace and put in code or, um, remember neo pets?
I was like obsessed with that.
Yeah.
Embarrassingly enough.
. Eddie: So that's good.
I think everyone had their neo pest phase.
Nicole: Yeah.
Everyone had like a phase where they were like making their
profiles and learning a little.
Like H T M L C S S, but it wasn't at the level that we have now.
So it was like everything was misaligned.
There was weird colors, whatever.
Yeah.
The days are kind of coming all back to me now, but in high school I went to.
This local high school and they're actually, they have specialized programs
because it's such a big high school.
So I did fine arts and I had my mindset on, hey, I wanna be an artist and I
wanna study under some like really great art professional and go to college for
it and get my master's in fine arts.
The recession happened and it made me take a step.
And say to myself, I need a corporate job.
I need to be able to support myself while the rest of the
world is like falling apart.
My family had issues during the recession.
Other people's families I knew had a really hard time.
So went to school and studied business and of course got the little minor in art.
So , that was like my way of kind of balancing.
being corporate and then also having that artsy side.
But after then I just focused on landing.
My job went to school in Boston, so it was like hyper-competitive
when graduating in what, 2015?
Yeah.
It was.
It was like a really weird time for a young, fresh out college person.
So what I did was get whatever job I could and eventually I worked
my way into the hedge fund field doing hedge fund accounting.
You would think it would be like your traditional accounting.
It's not.
It's literally telling like a hedge fund how much they're worth
over a certain period of time.
Could be daily, monthly, yearly.
And I thought to.
This sucks.
Like I don't wanna be . Yeah.
I don't wanna be in Excel all day long.
It's a great skill to have now in ux, but I literally was like,
okay, I need to change my career.
One of my friends was doing user experience over at New Balance in
Boston, so went back to school, but for my master's, literally same school
that he was going to at the time.
And I told myself, okay, I have six months.
To do this program.
It was a two year program, but I had my mind set on, I'm
gonna get a job in six months.
Wow.
And I landed a job designing hedge fund software for my first UX role, and the
rest has been a rollercoaster ride.
Eddie: That's awesome.
I love that you took an area that you knew, like working in hedge fund
companies and then you were able to like do that shift into design.
While utilizing that background.
That's
Nicole: awesome.
Yeah, it's definitely one of the ways I recommend to people now is like,
take something that you know and make that the bridge to what you wanna do.
That's really
Eddie: cool.
I've heard one or two people mention that, but not a lot.
You know, a lot of people times people jump into just a completely
new area and so I think that's a.
Good way to stay stable.
Right.
Oftentimes when you're doing something new, it can feel really
unstable and really, like you're in a completely new territory and it's
like you kind of have almost like a little comfort blanket, right?
Like
. Nicole: Yeah, definitely.
I kind of view it as a way to get your foot in the door, because back when I
was applying for jobs, user experience in big cities of course is a little
more competitive than like say up here.
I don't know, somewhere that isn't like a populated city.
So I often suggest the idea to a lot of people as a way
to show your marketability.
Like I.
Know what I'm doing here, but I am applying for this junior role.
You don't have to train me on the content.
You just have to help me out in becoming a junior UX designer.
Eddie: Nice.
No, that's a, that's a good point because a lot.
When you're changing industries, a lot of the onboarding is
just learning the industry.
So if you already know the industry, like you're a step ahead than anyone else
who's gonna have to learn the industry.
So that's a competitive advantage right there.
That's
Nicole: awesome.
Yeah.
I like my journey so far, even though it's been crazy
. Eddie: And obviously like you've been doing design for a while and now you've
started to do mentoring and consulting, like I guess, what is it that kind
of sparked that interest in you?
When
Nicole: I was fresh out?
Not outta college, but, uh, when I was switching into ux, there was no guidance.
And I mean, I had really awesome professors.
I went to a fantastic school and I'm really grateful for that.
But there was no one to really hold your hand and say like,
this is what you should do.
Or like, if I was in your shoes, like this is what I would do or have done.
So, I feel like whenever you can share that knowledge with anyone
who's trying something new, it's more power to everyone in the community.
Eddie: That's awesome.
So I was like, they gave you the general skills, but practically speaking
you were kind of just on your own.
Nicole: Yeah, and a lot of professions that I was in before, like the
financial field, there is no way to know what path to take or.
Even baby step to take.
So it's really overwhelming and I get it and I get a lot of questions
of which bootcamp should I do?
Should I go back to school, should I do this?
And it's kind of like, I wanna make sure that people have
information that's relevant to the careers that they might want
Eddie: today.
That makes a lot of sense.
That's really cool.
So obviously if you.
You've been in design this long and you're helping other people get
in, you must really love design.
What is it that kind of keeps you excited and kind of keeps you in
love with design and, and stuff?
Nicole: The thing I love about.
Design is, especially user experience design, is that you
can try so many new things.
You can learn something new every single day, and you can
specialize in many different areas if you choose to specialize.
It's kind of like a limitless like landscape in a way where.
You don't have to be stuck.
You can always try something new.
Eddie: That's awesome.
I love that.
Yeah.
You have all these different avenues to go down all these little, like choose
your own adventure kind of thing.
Yeah,
Nicole: and in finance, like what I was doing, it felt like such a linear
path and I hated feeling like, Trapped which user experience and design.
Like I have never felt that way.
There's always another opportunity.
There's always a new project.
It's all out there for you.
Eddie: Well, so obviously one thing we always like to talk about on this podcast
is like things that bring you joy.
So, I know when we talked, you kind of mentioned atomic principles
and, and different things like that that bring you joy.
So I guess kind of share with us how you view atomic principles and what it is that
about them that kind of brings you joy.
And then we can dive into that
Nicole: a little bit.
So I like to apply this in lots of different ways, but I like the concept
of starting very, very, And then building something beautiful out of
it, whether it's a design or your life.
And most people in myself included, get overwhelmed with,
Hey, we need this project, or, Hey, you need to do this in life.
It's like, how do I do all that?
And really what it is, is just executing these really small, basic steps that will
build on each other to create something.
That's
Eddie: awesome.
So it's like start with the baby steps and then like, so that you,
you aren't necessarily terrified and then like you can build on top
of that and make something big and
Nicole: awesome.
Yeah, like atomic design, like you're building small little atoms.
Right.
And then they become, Eventually like organisms, like they work
their way up and it's kind of a scientific way of looking at it.
And eventually you take all these little tiny components and boom, you have a page,
or you have an experience and a flow.
But also in life you can apply those same principles by, Hey, maybe I need to do
this really small habit every single day to build something great for my future.
Eddie: So yeah, figure now for you, like would you just pick a random habit
or are you starting with saying like, okay, here's my end goal, and then
like, what small habit gets me there?
How do you kind of think that through from your
Nicole: perspective?
So definitely having that goal in mind.
Like say you wanna become a lead designer, for example,
which is like my next big step.
It's like, how do I break this down?
This really big.
Into smaller steps and even daily things that will help me
progress forward in my career.
And by doing that, it's just so much more easier on your mind.
And you're not just like pressing yourself to like get this ultimate title.
You're building up the habits, the routines, the behaviors to become.
This person, you want to be in the future.
For me, it's that lead position.
It's like building a house in a way, right?
You need like a solid foundation before you get the house, and then all these
little things become a part of that.
What is Ultimate going going to be your home?
Does that make sense?
In a way,
Eddie: yeah.
Start with a foundation.
It's like, okay, a foundation just looks like right.
A block of whatever, it's cement or whatever they put in our foundations.
Mm-hmm.
, I'm not an architectural person, but you know, they lay a whole bunch of
cement and you look at it and you're like, well that doesn't seem like much.
And it's interesting because I've even.
I think, right, the small things can be bigger than we expect.
They've been doing a lot of construction around us and you sometimes look at the
foundation of what's gonna be a house.
And when you look at it, it actually on its own as a
foundation, looks really small.
Like I always look and I'm like, how are they gonna build a house on that?
Like that doesn't seem big enough.
But once they actually finished the house, the foundation was
a lot bigger than it looked.
It was just like an illusion because there wasn't that much there.
Yeah,
Nicole: you always look at people, at least I do, and I
go, wow, how did they get there?
And literally, the most successful people just build on top of whatever habits and
behaviors they need to become that person.
But even when I look at like a small button on a page, I'm
like, wow, that's so small.
Like what are we going to eventually.
with that, and then you see the whole thing built out and
it becomes this experience of what you dreamed it would be.
Just little pieces all fitting
Eddie: together.
Yeah.
I really love that the combination of these little pieces are greater
than the pieces themselves are.
Right.
Kind of like.
Um, I know we talk about in the sometimes like, oh, you have a team, right?
And the team should be greater than the sum of all the people in the team.
Right.
By working together, they create a chemistry that is more than what they are.
It's like you said, with say, a design system like the buttons and the.
Color palette and you know, the modals and stuff and like when you put all of that
together, suddenly you get an experience where when you just look at the one item,
it's just like, that's a cool button.
That's nice.
Like
. Nicole: Yeah.
It's like overwhelming to think of it.
And I absolutely.
I don't know how design system designers do this and just like create these like
little components to, for other people to consume, but it's like they have to
be so intentional with the way that they build things and how they hand them out
to people in a way that it's like, I wish I was like this in my everyday life.
Just making sure everything.
Perfect and so aligned.
So then it becomes like this giant thing and we're human.
We're not like design systems, so nothing's gonna be perfect in our behavior
or whatnot, but I just think it's like so interesting how they manage that.
Eddie: That is really cool.
I think it requires a specific type of mindset to be able to zoom in on
something small and like see how it impacts things from a greater purpose.
Couple episodes back, everyone probably heard an episode with Bonnie
Kate Wolf and she does icon design and so it's like she has to zoom
in to the pixel level to literally change us these individual pixels.
And yet like keeping in the back of her mind, like when you zoom
out, what does this one pixel look like at its actual like 100% size.
And I think it's interesting.
In our life, like taking and flipping that in the way you're talking about,
like you kind of have to remember both the individual action that might be somewhat
frustrating or mundane, but then thinking about what that looks like when you're
actually zooming out and like looking at yourself from a third person and like,
okay, but what does this person look like?
Who's doing this thing?
Right?
And uh, that it can be a tricky mindset, but I think.
Hearing you and thinking about, you know, the other episode that feels really
powerful to be able to kind of zoom out from your life and almost look at your
life from someone's else's perspective.
Nicole: Yeah, and a lot of, um, psychology, I don't have any studies off
the top of my head, but it's hard for.
any regular human being to think of a future self, right?
It's very much your experience is past and present and like even
financial studies have shown this about saving money is like you have
a goal in mind, but a lot of people.
reach that goal because of their actions.
Just little tiny steps.
Maybe saving 20 bucks a week, or maybe not buying, I don't know, like a giant
TV every month, , because there's some people out there like that.
But it's really just the basics that build
Eddie: you up.
And it's interesting.
This was not a planned segue for anyone listening, but you know, I think.
That kind of brings us back around to the fact that you do
mentoring and consulting, right?
Like it's oftentimes hard for us to view ourselves in a future
state, and it's hard for us to view ourselves like as a third person.
So I think that is a key part where like mentoring comes into place, right?
Someone else who can come in and look at us and see us differently
than we can see ourselves.
So kind of shifting there, how does that play into this, right?
Do you consider any of.
Things that we've been talking about as you go through, like mentoring
and what does mentoring look like with how you work with people?
Nicole: So I have a formal mentorship program, but as a way
to give back to the community.
I'll take on five people for nine weeks in just.
Coach 'em through like, Hey, um, this is my goal.
What do I do to get there?
And it's all about giving people homework and making this whole feeling
of I'm accountable to someone now and saying like, I have to achieve
these little goals to reach there.
And actually I was helping.
One, um, beautiful human being, and she just got her first UX offer
by the little changes . I know.
I'm so happy for her.
And when she messaged me, I was like, oh my goodness.
Like, go and celebrate, but I'm also gonna be celebrating you and whatnot.
So that was great to hear from her, but it was literally just these
little tiny steps that add up to this big goal of her getting an
offer that makes such a differe.
But yeah, I offer mentorship and then for those who follow me on Twitter, I'll
put out some quick hitting advice that I'm hearing from either my mentees or
people that are like DMing me, asking me questions because there's so much
out there that it's literally just.
Little tiny steps that people need to be taking or something very small that
they need to be informed about in the
Eddie: industry.
So you share information on your Twitter, then you occasionally take
kind of these small cohort of people to just mentor, and then you have
an official mentorship program.
Beyond that is what you were.
Nicole: Yeah, so if anyone wants to book time with me, I usually just
take whatever problem that they have, like any UX designer or developer,
and it's like, okay, how do we break this down so that you can achieve this
just like atomic principles where it's like you have this big thing that you
need to design, but how are we going to build it up and actually like ship
it out and make it a real product?
Eddie: That's awesome.
Yeah.
So.
If anyone is finding themselves running into challenges and needing to to have
some help, definitely we'll include all the information in the show notes so
you can reach out to Nicole and when she has an opening and can work with you.
Hopefully that will help.
Awesome.
Well, Nicole, thank you so much for coming on today.
It's been a pleasure just chatting and getting to know you, hearing your story.
Kind of nerding out a little bit about atomic principles and like life, you
Nicole: know, . Yeah.
I really appreciate being on here.
Thank you so much.
Absolutely.
Eddie: And everyone, thank you for listening and have a great day.
Thank you for joining us for episode 34.
Little pieces, all fitting together.
With Nicole, Frank, you can find out more about Nicole on her website.
Nicole Frank.
Dot com.
And you can find her all across the interwebs.
You can find links to everything we talked about in this episode, as well
as a link to Nicole's website and social media accounts in the show notes.
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