1 00:00:02,727 --> 00:00:06,027 Eddie: Welcome to episode 34 of the web joy podcast. 2 00:00:06,237 --> 00:00:07,377 I'm your host Eddie. 3 00:00:07,617 --> 00:00:11,427 And in this podcast, we interview guests about their origin stories and 4 00:00:11,427 --> 00:00:15,777 what makes them excited and joyful to be part of the tech community. 5 00:00:16,227 --> 00:00:17,727 I hope you enjoy today's episode. 6 00:00:18,027 --> 00:00:21,567 The little pieces, all fitting together with Nicole Frank. 7 00:00:24,188 --> 00:00:27,068 Welcome to another episode of Web Joy. 8 00:00:27,128 --> 00:00:30,068 Today I have Nicole Frank with me. 9 00:00:30,368 --> 00:00:32,318 Nicole, say hi to everyone 10 00:00:32,318 --> 00:00:32,708 Nicole: listening. 11 00:00:33,038 --> 00:00:33,848 Hi everyone. 12 00:00:33,908 --> 00:00:37,058 I'm so excited to be here, so thank you for having me. 13 00:00:37,208 --> 00:00:37,748 Eddie: Awesome. 14 00:00:37,748 --> 00:00:38,603 It's my pleasure. 15 00:00:39,068 --> 00:00:43,043 So, Kind of who are you, what do you do where you work, you know, 16 00:00:43,193 --> 00:00:44,603 a brief rundown of yourself. 17 00:00:44,843 --> 00:00:51,743 Nicole: So I am a, uh, senior UX designer now referred to as a product designer, 18 00:00:51,983 --> 00:00:54,863 which is kind of confusing and I know a lot of people are in the industry, are 19 00:00:54,863 --> 00:00:56,963 kind of confused by the title switching. 20 00:00:57,593 --> 00:01:03,293 I work at a small startup based in Omaha, Nebraska, but I am located in Connecticut. 21 00:01:03,848 --> 00:01:08,588 So I am leading the tax experience side of our application. 22 00:01:08,978 --> 00:01:12,278 I also run my own kind of personal brand on Twitter. 23 00:01:12,278 --> 00:01:17,228 Nicole Frank and I try to help others who are breaking into user experience with 24 00:01:17,228 --> 00:01:22,478 like general things where it's like maybe you're applying for your first UX role. 25 00:01:23,078 --> 00:01:27,548 How best to do that and try to guide people and give them some quick 26 00:01:27,548 --> 00:01:29,498 tips that I wish I knew at the time. 27 00:01:29,858 --> 00:01:33,518 So I really like that kind of community in helping out 28 00:01:33,518 --> 00:01:34,058 Eddie: others. 29 00:01:34,118 --> 00:01:34,718 That's great. 30 00:01:34,723 --> 00:01:37,118 It seems like you keep pretty busy with all of 31 00:01:37,118 --> 00:01:37,358 Nicole: that. 32 00:01:37,538 --> 00:01:38,588 I do, yeah. 33 00:01:38,593 --> 00:01:41,708 It's like a full-time job, but it's like a labor of love. 34 00:01:41,828 --> 00:01:44,978 It's not like anything where it's like, oh my God, I have to. 35 00:01:45,448 --> 00:01:48,718 Go and tweet this today, or I have to help out this person. 36 00:01:49,018 --> 00:01:52,168 No, it's honestly kind of the best thing that I've ran 37 00:01:52,168 --> 00:01:52,708 Eddie: into. 38 00:01:53,038 --> 00:01:57,328 Well, you're investing into others, kind of helping them get their start. 39 00:01:57,728 --> 00:02:00,788 So that's an interesting segue to like, Hey, how did you get your start? 40 00:02:00,788 --> 00:02:01,088 Right? 41 00:02:01,178 --> 00:02:03,008 Where were you, what were you doing? 42 00:02:03,008 --> 00:02:08,018 When you kind of realized, I wanna get involved in tech, I want to do product 43 00:02:08,018 --> 00:02:12,278 design, UX design, and um, what has that journey kind of looked like for you? 44 00:02:12,753 --> 00:02:14,403 Nicole: It's been a long journey. 45 00:02:14,673 --> 00:02:20,553 So remember like the early two thousands and like, I was like a kid and there was 46 00:02:20,558 --> 00:02:26,283 like, you could design your own MySpace and put in code or, um, remember neo pets? 47 00:02:26,283 --> 00:02:27,753 I was like obsessed with that. 48 00:02:27,783 --> 00:02:28,263 Yeah. 49 00:02:28,268 --> 00:02:29,693 Embarrassingly enough. 50 00:02:30,393 --> 00:02:32,043 . Eddie: So that's good. 51 00:02:32,043 --> 00:02:34,023 I think everyone had their neo pest phase. 52 00:02:34,053 --> 00:02:34,413 Nicole: Yeah. 53 00:02:34,933 --> 00:02:37,683 Everyone had like a phase where they were like making their 54 00:02:37,683 --> 00:02:39,423 profiles and learning a little. 55 00:02:39,958 --> 00:02:45,388 Like H T M L C S S, but it wasn't at the level that we have now. 56 00:02:45,628 --> 00:02:47,788 So it was like everything was misaligned. 57 00:02:47,788 --> 00:02:49,618 There was weird colors, whatever. 58 00:02:50,368 --> 00:02:50,728 Yeah. 59 00:02:50,728 --> 00:02:55,828 The days are kind of coming all back to me now, but in high school I went to. 60 00:02:56,613 --> 00:03:00,393 This local high school and they're actually, they have specialized programs 61 00:03:00,393 --> 00:03:02,643 because it's such a big high school. 62 00:03:03,033 --> 00:03:08,673 So I did fine arts and I had my mindset on, hey, I wanna be an artist and I 63 00:03:08,673 --> 00:03:14,703 wanna study under some like really great art professional and go to college for 64 00:03:14,703 --> 00:03:16,683 it and get my master's in fine arts. 65 00:03:17,103 --> 00:03:20,603 The recession happened and it made me take a step. 66 00:03:21,103 --> 00:03:24,193 And say to myself, I need a corporate job. 67 00:03:24,373 --> 00:03:27,643 I need to be able to support myself while the rest of the 68 00:03:27,643 --> 00:03:30,013 world is like falling apart. 69 00:03:30,013 --> 00:03:32,623 My family had issues during the recession. 70 00:03:32,683 --> 00:03:36,223 Other people's families I knew had a really hard time. 71 00:03:36,763 --> 00:03:42,943 So went to school and studied business and of course got the little minor in art. 72 00:03:43,513 --> 00:03:48,403 So , that was like my way of kind of balancing. 73 00:03:49,388 --> 00:03:52,373 being corporate and then also having that artsy side. 74 00:03:52,673 --> 00:03:55,793 But after then I just focused on landing. 75 00:03:55,793 --> 00:03:59,723 My job went to school in Boston, so it was like hyper-competitive 76 00:03:59,723 --> 00:04:02,663 when graduating in what, 2015? 77 00:04:02,668 --> 00:04:03,143 Yeah. 78 00:04:03,413 --> 00:04:03,863 Yeah. 79 00:04:03,863 --> 00:04:04,553 It was. 80 00:04:04,843 --> 00:04:10,213 It was like a really weird time for a young, fresh out college person. 81 00:04:10,783 --> 00:04:15,193 So what I did was get whatever job I could and eventually I worked 82 00:04:15,193 --> 00:04:18,073 my way into the hedge fund field doing hedge fund accounting. 83 00:04:18,553 --> 00:04:21,013 You would think it would be like your traditional accounting. 84 00:04:21,013 --> 00:04:21,613 It's not. 85 00:04:21,613 --> 00:04:25,183 It's literally telling like a hedge fund how much they're worth 86 00:04:25,393 --> 00:04:27,163 over a certain period of time. 87 00:04:27,313 --> 00:04:29,803 Could be daily, monthly, yearly. 88 00:04:30,133 --> 00:04:31,423 And I thought to. 89 00:04:32,263 --> 00:04:33,403 This sucks. 90 00:04:33,523 --> 00:04:35,423 Like I don't wanna be . Yeah. 91 00:04:37,003 --> 00:04:39,343 I don't wanna be in Excel all day long. 92 00:04:39,823 --> 00:04:45,493 It's a great skill to have now in ux, but I literally was like, 93 00:04:45,523 --> 00:04:47,053 okay, I need to change my career. 94 00:04:47,698 --> 00:04:52,738 One of my friends was doing user experience over at New Balance in 95 00:04:52,738 --> 00:05:00,088 Boston, so went back to school, but for my master's, literally same school 96 00:05:00,088 --> 00:05:01,858 that he was going to at the time. 97 00:05:02,338 --> 00:05:05,548 And I told myself, okay, I have six months. 98 00:05:05,558 --> 00:05:07,418 To do this program. 99 00:05:07,568 --> 00:05:10,538 It was a two year program, but I had my mind set on, I'm 100 00:05:10,538 --> 00:05:12,248 gonna get a job in six months. 101 00:05:12,308 --> 00:05:12,728 Wow. 102 00:05:12,938 --> 00:05:17,888 And I landed a job designing hedge fund software for my first UX role, and the 103 00:05:17,888 --> 00:05:19,958 rest has been a rollercoaster ride. 104 00:05:20,108 --> 00:05:21,008 Eddie: That's awesome. 105 00:05:21,008 --> 00:05:26,738 I love that you took an area that you knew, like working in hedge fund 106 00:05:26,768 --> 00:05:31,628 companies and then you were able to like do that shift into design. 107 00:05:32,348 --> 00:05:34,628 While utilizing that background. 108 00:05:34,628 --> 00:05:34,778 That's 109 00:05:34,778 --> 00:05:35,288 Nicole: awesome. 110 00:05:35,498 --> 00:05:40,778 Yeah, it's definitely one of the ways I recommend to people now is like, 111 00:05:40,778 --> 00:05:44,738 take something that you know and make that the bridge to what you wanna do. 112 00:05:45,008 --> 00:05:45,548 That's really 113 00:05:45,548 --> 00:05:45,968 Eddie: cool. 114 00:05:46,238 --> 00:05:50,138 I've heard one or two people mention that, but not a lot. 115 00:05:50,138 --> 00:05:52,748 You know, a lot of people times people jump into just a completely 116 00:05:52,753 --> 00:05:55,378 new area and so I think that's a. 117 00:05:55,943 --> 00:05:58,073 Good way to stay stable. 118 00:05:58,073 --> 00:05:58,343 Right. 119 00:05:58,343 --> 00:06:01,313 Oftentimes when you're doing something new, it can feel really 120 00:06:01,313 --> 00:06:04,703 unstable and really, like you're in a completely new territory and it's 121 00:06:04,708 --> 00:06:07,673 like you kind of have almost like a little comfort blanket, right? 122 00:06:07,673 --> 00:06:07,853 Like 123 00:06:08,903 --> 00:06:10,433 . Nicole: Yeah, definitely. 124 00:06:10,433 --> 00:06:16,433 I kind of view it as a way to get your foot in the door, because back when I 125 00:06:16,433 --> 00:06:21,353 was applying for jobs, user experience in big cities of course is a little 126 00:06:21,353 --> 00:06:23,273 more competitive than like say up here. 127 00:06:24,008 --> 00:06:26,828 I don't know, somewhere that isn't like a populated city. 128 00:06:27,308 --> 00:06:32,738 So I often suggest the idea to a lot of people as a way 129 00:06:32,743 --> 00:06:35,018 to show your marketability. 130 00:06:35,078 --> 00:06:35,798 Like I. 131 00:06:36,533 --> 00:06:40,793 Know what I'm doing here, but I am applying for this junior role. 132 00:06:40,853 --> 00:06:42,713 You don't have to train me on the content. 133 00:06:43,133 --> 00:06:48,893 You just have to help me out in becoming a junior UX designer. 134 00:06:49,133 --> 00:06:49,523 Eddie: Nice. 135 00:06:49,523 --> 00:06:51,863 No, that's a, that's a good point because a lot. 136 00:06:52,318 --> 00:06:55,378 When you're changing industries, a lot of the onboarding is 137 00:06:55,378 --> 00:06:56,518 just learning the industry. 138 00:06:56,518 --> 00:07:00,208 So if you already know the industry, like you're a step ahead than anyone else 139 00:07:00,213 --> 00:07:01,648 who's gonna have to learn the industry. 140 00:07:01,648 --> 00:07:03,538 So that's a competitive advantage right there. 141 00:07:03,598 --> 00:07:03,778 That's 142 00:07:03,778 --> 00:07:04,198 Nicole: awesome. 143 00:07:04,318 --> 00:07:04,888 Yeah. 144 00:07:04,948 --> 00:07:07,558 I like my journey so far, even though it's been crazy 145 00:07:09,178 --> 00:07:12,358 . Eddie: And obviously like you've been doing design for a while and now you've 146 00:07:12,358 --> 00:07:16,288 started to do mentoring and consulting, like I guess, what is it that kind 147 00:07:16,288 --> 00:07:17,998 of sparked that interest in you? 148 00:07:18,328 --> 00:07:18,688 When 149 00:07:18,688 --> 00:07:20,038 Nicole: I was fresh out? 150 00:07:20,763 --> 00:07:26,853 Not outta college, but, uh, when I was switching into ux, there was no guidance. 151 00:07:27,093 --> 00:07:29,403 And I mean, I had really awesome professors. 152 00:07:29,403 --> 00:07:32,703 I went to a fantastic school and I'm really grateful for that. 153 00:07:33,033 --> 00:07:36,963 But there was no one to really hold your hand and say like, 154 00:07:37,473 --> 00:07:39,163 this is what you should do. 155 00:07:39,513 --> 00:07:44,643 Or like, if I was in your shoes, like this is what I would do or have done. 156 00:07:45,493 --> 00:07:51,668 So, I feel like whenever you can share that knowledge with anyone 157 00:07:51,668 --> 00:07:56,318 who's trying something new, it's more power to everyone in the community. 158 00:07:56,678 --> 00:07:57,368 Eddie: That's awesome. 159 00:07:57,373 --> 00:08:01,778 So I was like, they gave you the general skills, but practically speaking 160 00:08:01,783 --> 00:08:03,308 you were kind of just on your own. 161 00:08:03,878 --> 00:08:07,358 Nicole: Yeah, and a lot of professions that I was in before, like the 162 00:08:07,358 --> 00:08:13,388 financial field, there is no way to know what path to take or. 163 00:08:14,333 --> 00:08:16,043 Even baby step to take. 164 00:08:16,523 --> 00:08:20,873 So it's really overwhelming and I get it and I get a lot of questions 165 00:08:20,873 --> 00:08:22,673 of which bootcamp should I do? 166 00:08:22,678 --> 00:08:24,833 Should I go back to school, should I do this? 167 00:08:24,833 --> 00:08:28,343 And it's kind of like, I wanna make sure that people have 168 00:08:28,583 --> 00:08:31,793 information that's relevant to the careers that they might want 169 00:08:31,793 --> 00:08:32,333 Eddie: today. 170 00:08:32,513 --> 00:08:33,563 That makes a lot of sense. 171 00:08:33,713 --> 00:08:34,583 That's really cool. 172 00:08:34,703 --> 00:08:36,303 So obviously if you. 173 00:08:36,808 --> 00:08:41,248 You've been in design this long and you're helping other people get 174 00:08:41,248 --> 00:08:44,428 in, you must really love design. 175 00:08:44,428 --> 00:08:48,508 What is it that kind of keeps you excited and kind of keeps you in 176 00:08:48,513 --> 00:08:50,698 love with design and, and stuff? 177 00:08:50,908 --> 00:08:51,818 Nicole: The thing I love about. 178 00:08:52,323 --> 00:08:56,343 Design is, especially user experience design, is that you 179 00:08:56,343 --> 00:08:58,623 can try so many new things. 180 00:08:58,893 --> 00:09:04,023 You can learn something new every single day, and you can 181 00:09:04,023 --> 00:09:08,103 specialize in many different areas if you choose to specialize. 182 00:09:08,493 --> 00:09:13,863 It's kind of like a limitless like landscape in a way where. 183 00:09:14,258 --> 00:09:16,928 You don't have to be stuck. 184 00:09:17,348 --> 00:09:19,838 You can always try something new. 185 00:09:20,138 --> 00:09:20,828 Eddie: That's awesome. 186 00:09:21,038 --> 00:09:21,518 I love that. 187 00:09:21,518 --> 00:09:21,728 Yeah. 188 00:09:21,728 --> 00:09:24,968 You have all these different avenues to go down all these little, like choose 189 00:09:24,968 --> 00:09:26,378 your own adventure kind of thing. 190 00:09:26,528 --> 00:09:27,158 Yeah, 191 00:09:27,158 --> 00:09:31,328 Nicole: and in finance, like what I was doing, it felt like such a linear 192 00:09:31,328 --> 00:09:37,558 path and I hated feeling like, Trapped which user experience and design. 193 00:09:37,558 --> 00:09:39,688 Like I have never felt that way. 194 00:09:39,748 --> 00:09:41,548 There's always another opportunity. 195 00:09:41,548 --> 00:09:43,018 There's always a new project. 196 00:09:43,408 --> 00:09:44,968 It's all out there for you. 197 00:09:45,838 --> 00:09:49,678 Eddie: Well, so obviously one thing we always like to talk about on this podcast 198 00:09:49,678 --> 00:09:52,738 is like things that bring you joy. 199 00:09:52,743 --> 00:09:58,328 So, I know when we talked, you kind of mentioned atomic principles 200 00:09:58,328 --> 00:10:00,128 and, and different things like that that bring you joy. 201 00:10:00,128 --> 00:10:06,548 So I guess kind of share with us how you view atomic principles and what it is that 202 00:10:06,938 --> 00:10:08,468 about them that kind of brings you joy. 203 00:10:08,558 --> 00:10:09,818 And then we can dive into that 204 00:10:09,818 --> 00:10:10,238 Nicole: a little bit. 205 00:10:10,538 --> 00:10:15,788 So I like to apply this in lots of different ways, but I like the concept 206 00:10:15,818 --> 00:10:21,653 of starting very, very, And then building something beautiful out of 207 00:10:21,653 --> 00:10:24,113 it, whether it's a design or your life. 208 00:10:24,563 --> 00:10:29,003 And most people in myself included, get overwhelmed with, 209 00:10:29,153 --> 00:10:33,653 Hey, we need this project, or, Hey, you need to do this in life. 210 00:10:33,953 --> 00:10:35,873 It's like, how do I do all that? 211 00:10:35,878 --> 00:10:43,643 And really what it is, is just executing these really small, basic steps that will 212 00:10:43,643 --> 00:10:45,533 build on each other to create something. 213 00:10:46,248 --> 00:10:46,488 That's 214 00:10:46,488 --> 00:10:47,088 Eddie: awesome. 215 00:10:47,088 --> 00:10:51,228 So it's like start with the baby steps and then like, so that you, 216 00:10:51,233 --> 00:10:55,038 you aren't necessarily terrified and then like you can build on top 217 00:10:55,038 --> 00:10:57,048 of that and make something big and 218 00:10:57,048 --> 00:10:57,558 Nicole: awesome. 219 00:10:57,768 --> 00:11:02,718 Yeah, like atomic design, like you're building small little atoms. 220 00:11:02,718 --> 00:11:03,258 Right. 221 00:11:03,528 --> 00:11:07,483 And then they become, Eventually like organisms, like they work 222 00:11:07,483 --> 00:11:10,483 their way up and it's kind of a scientific way of looking at it. 223 00:11:11,113 --> 00:11:16,663 And eventually you take all these little tiny components and boom, you have a page, 224 00:11:16,668 --> 00:11:18,733 or you have an experience and a flow. 225 00:11:19,303 --> 00:11:24,673 But also in life you can apply those same principles by, Hey, maybe I need to do 226 00:11:24,673 --> 00:11:29,123 this really small habit every single day to build something great for my future. 227 00:11:29,798 --> 00:11:34,478 Eddie: So yeah, figure now for you, like would you just pick a random habit 228 00:11:34,478 --> 00:11:38,258 or are you starting with saying like, okay, here's my end goal, and then 229 00:11:38,258 --> 00:11:40,298 like, what small habit gets me there? 230 00:11:40,298 --> 00:11:42,758 How do you kind of think that through from your 231 00:11:42,788 --> 00:11:43,478 Nicole: perspective? 232 00:11:43,718 --> 00:11:46,838 So definitely having that goal in mind. 233 00:11:47,108 --> 00:11:52,148 Like say you wanna become a lead designer, for example, 234 00:11:52,148 --> 00:11:54,188 which is like my next big step. 235 00:11:54,698 --> 00:11:57,338 It's like, how do I break this down? 236 00:11:57,428 --> 00:11:58,268 This really big. 237 00:11:59,133 --> 00:12:04,653 Into smaller steps and even daily things that will help me 238 00:12:05,033 --> 00:12:06,393 progress forward in my career. 239 00:12:06,753 --> 00:12:12,273 And by doing that, it's just so much more easier on your mind. 240 00:12:12,273 --> 00:12:16,743 And you're not just like pressing yourself to like get this ultimate title. 241 00:12:16,748 --> 00:12:22,533 You're building up the habits, the routines, the behaviors to become. 242 00:12:22,833 --> 00:12:24,993 This person, you want to be in the future. 243 00:12:24,993 --> 00:12:27,333 For me, it's that lead position. 244 00:12:27,573 --> 00:12:29,553 It's like building a house in a way, right? 245 00:12:29,553 --> 00:12:34,173 You need like a solid foundation before you get the house, and then all these 246 00:12:34,173 --> 00:12:37,833 little things become a part of that. 247 00:12:38,103 --> 00:12:41,433 What is Ultimate going going to be your home? 248 00:12:41,843 --> 00:12:42,773 Does that make sense? 249 00:12:42,773 --> 00:12:43,313 In a way, 250 00:12:43,823 --> 00:12:44,303 Eddie: yeah. 251 00:12:44,303 --> 00:12:45,833 Start with a foundation. 252 00:12:45,833 --> 00:12:48,563 It's like, okay, a foundation just looks like right. 253 00:12:48,563 --> 00:12:53,273 A block of whatever, it's cement or whatever they put in our foundations. 254 00:12:53,333 --> 00:12:53,423 Mm-hmm. 255 00:12:53,663 --> 00:12:56,843 , I'm not an architectural person, but you know, they lay a whole bunch of 256 00:12:56,843 --> 00:13:00,443 cement and you look at it and you're like, well that doesn't seem like much. 257 00:13:00,863 --> 00:13:02,393 And it's interesting because I've even. 258 00:13:02,828 --> 00:13:06,398 I think, right, the small things can be bigger than we expect. 259 00:13:06,488 --> 00:13:10,508 They've been doing a lot of construction around us and you sometimes look at the 260 00:13:10,508 --> 00:13:12,608 foundation of what's gonna be a house. 261 00:13:13,088 --> 00:13:15,698 And when you look at it, it actually on its own as a 262 00:13:15,703 --> 00:13:17,048 foundation, looks really small. 263 00:13:17,048 --> 00:13:20,228 Like I always look and I'm like, how are they gonna build a house on that? 264 00:13:20,228 --> 00:13:21,758 Like that doesn't seem big enough. 265 00:13:22,208 --> 00:13:25,118 But once they actually finished the house, the foundation was 266 00:13:25,348 --> 00:13:26,738 a lot bigger than it looked. 267 00:13:26,768 --> 00:13:29,648 It was just like an illusion because there wasn't that much there. 268 00:13:30,088 --> 00:13:30,658 Yeah, 269 00:13:30,718 --> 00:13:34,078 Nicole: you always look at people, at least I do, and I 270 00:13:34,078 --> 00:13:35,938 go, wow, how did they get there? 271 00:13:36,358 --> 00:13:43,048 And literally, the most successful people just build on top of whatever habits and 272 00:13:43,048 --> 00:13:45,418 behaviors they need to become that person. 273 00:13:45,928 --> 00:13:49,288 But even when I look at like a small button on a page, I'm 274 00:13:49,288 --> 00:13:51,388 like, wow, that's so small. 275 00:13:51,388 --> 00:13:53,218 Like what are we going to eventually. 276 00:13:54,083 --> 00:13:57,443 with that, and then you see the whole thing built out and 277 00:13:57,443 --> 00:14:01,493 it becomes this experience of what you dreamed it would be. 278 00:14:01,733 --> 00:14:03,713 Just little pieces all fitting 279 00:14:03,713 --> 00:14:04,313 Eddie: together. 280 00:14:04,613 --> 00:14:04,943 Yeah. 281 00:14:04,943 --> 00:14:09,533 I really love that the combination of these little pieces are greater 282 00:14:09,803 --> 00:14:12,023 than the pieces themselves are. 283 00:14:12,083 --> 00:14:12,263 Right. 284 00:14:12,263 --> 00:14:12,833 Kind of like. 285 00:14:13,368 --> 00:14:16,758 Um, I know we talk about in the sometimes like, oh, you have a team, right? 286 00:14:16,758 --> 00:14:20,388 And the team should be greater than the sum of all the people in the team. 287 00:14:20,388 --> 00:14:20,658 Right. 288 00:14:20,658 --> 00:14:25,248 By working together, they create a chemistry that is more than what they are. 289 00:14:25,248 --> 00:14:29,748 It's like you said, with say, a design system like the buttons and the. 290 00:14:30,398 --> 00:14:35,678 Color palette and you know, the modals and stuff and like when you put all of that 291 00:14:35,678 --> 00:14:40,658 together, suddenly you get an experience where when you just look at the one item, 292 00:14:40,838 --> 00:14:42,758 it's just like, that's a cool button. 293 00:14:42,818 --> 00:14:43,478 That's nice. 294 00:14:43,478 --> 00:14:43,778 Like 295 00:14:44,408 --> 00:14:44,858 . Nicole: Yeah. 296 00:14:44,858 --> 00:14:47,138 It's like overwhelming to think of it. 297 00:14:47,138 --> 00:14:48,728 And I absolutely. 298 00:14:49,118 --> 00:14:54,278 I don't know how design system designers do this and just like create these like 299 00:14:54,278 --> 00:14:59,138 little components to, for other people to consume, but it's like they have to 300 00:14:59,388 --> 00:15:04,418 be so intentional with the way that they build things and how they hand them out 301 00:15:04,418 --> 00:15:09,998 to people in a way that it's like, I wish I was like this in my everyday life. 302 00:15:10,238 --> 00:15:11,708 Just making sure everything. 303 00:15:12,233 --> 00:15:14,033 Perfect and so aligned. 304 00:15:14,033 --> 00:15:18,353 So then it becomes like this giant thing and we're human. 305 00:15:18,353 --> 00:15:22,763 We're not like design systems, so nothing's gonna be perfect in our behavior 306 00:15:22,763 --> 00:15:28,133 or whatnot, but I just think it's like so interesting how they manage that. 307 00:15:28,463 --> 00:15:29,333 Eddie: That is really cool. 308 00:15:29,338 --> 00:15:35,663 I think it requires a specific type of mindset to be able to zoom in on 309 00:15:35,663 --> 00:15:41,003 something small and like see how it impacts things from a greater purpose. 310 00:15:41,483 --> 00:15:45,863 Couple episodes back, everyone probably heard an episode with Bonnie 311 00:15:45,863 --> 00:15:51,683 Kate Wolf and she does icon design and so it's like she has to zoom 312 00:15:51,683 --> 00:15:55,853 in to the pixel level to literally change us these individual pixels. 313 00:15:56,213 --> 00:15:59,903 And yet like keeping in the back of her mind, like when you zoom 314 00:15:59,903 --> 00:16:06,143 out, what does this one pixel look like at its actual like 100% size. 315 00:16:06,623 --> 00:16:08,483 And I think it's interesting. 316 00:16:08,973 --> 00:16:12,843 In our life, like taking and flipping that in the way you're talking about, 317 00:16:12,993 --> 00:16:17,793 like you kind of have to remember both the individual action that might be somewhat 318 00:16:18,063 --> 00:16:23,013 frustrating or mundane, but then thinking about what that looks like when you're 319 00:16:23,013 --> 00:16:27,363 actually zooming out and like looking at yourself from a third person and like, 320 00:16:27,363 --> 00:16:29,373 okay, but what does this person look like? 321 00:16:29,373 --> 00:16:30,513 Who's doing this thing? 322 00:16:30,513 --> 00:16:30,963 Right? 323 00:16:31,263 --> 00:16:34,773 And uh, that it can be a tricky mindset, but I think. 324 00:16:35,398 --> 00:16:39,838 Hearing you and thinking about, you know, the other episode that feels really 325 00:16:40,348 --> 00:16:43,468 powerful to be able to kind of zoom out from your life and almost look at your 326 00:16:43,468 --> 00:16:45,748 life from someone's else's perspective. 327 00:16:46,018 --> 00:16:49,828 Nicole: Yeah, and a lot of, um, psychology, I don't have any studies off 328 00:16:49,828 --> 00:16:52,018 the top of my head, but it's hard for. 329 00:16:53,093 --> 00:16:59,408 any regular human being to think of a future self, right? 330 00:16:59,678 --> 00:17:05,318 It's very much your experience is past and present and like even 331 00:17:05,323 --> 00:17:09,578 financial studies have shown this about saving money is like you have 332 00:17:09,578 --> 00:17:13,088 a goal in mind, but a lot of people. 333 00:17:14,218 --> 00:17:16,423 reach that goal because of their actions. 334 00:17:16,453 --> 00:17:17,983 Just little tiny steps. 335 00:17:17,983 --> 00:17:23,323 Maybe saving 20 bucks a week, or maybe not buying, I don't know, like a giant 336 00:17:23,323 --> 00:17:28,063 TV every month, , because there's some people out there like that. 337 00:17:28,123 --> 00:17:32,683 But it's really just the basics that build 338 00:17:32,683 --> 00:17:33,163 Eddie: you up. 339 00:17:33,403 --> 00:17:34,933 And it's interesting. 340 00:17:35,233 --> 00:17:39,703 This was not a planned segue for anyone listening, but you know, I think. 341 00:17:40,003 --> 00:17:43,513 That kind of brings us back around to the fact that you do 342 00:17:43,513 --> 00:17:44,833 mentoring and consulting, right? 343 00:17:44,833 --> 00:17:48,283 Like it's oftentimes hard for us to view ourselves in a future 344 00:17:48,283 --> 00:17:52,993 state, and it's hard for us to view ourselves like as a third person. 345 00:17:53,083 --> 00:17:57,943 So I think that is a key part where like mentoring comes into place, right? 346 00:17:57,948 --> 00:18:01,963 Someone else who can come in and look at us and see us differently 347 00:18:01,963 --> 00:18:03,403 than we can see ourselves. 348 00:18:03,853 --> 00:18:08,053 So kind of shifting there, how does that play into this, right? 349 00:18:08,053 --> 00:18:09,223 Do you consider any of. 350 00:18:09,578 --> 00:18:12,758 Things that we've been talking about as you go through, like mentoring 351 00:18:12,758 --> 00:18:15,998 and what does mentoring look like with how you work with people? 352 00:18:16,388 --> 00:18:21,308 Nicole: So I have a formal mentorship program, but as a way 353 00:18:21,308 --> 00:18:22,898 to give back to the community. 354 00:18:23,138 --> 00:18:26,318 I'll take on five people for nine weeks in just. 355 00:18:26,658 --> 00:18:29,898 Coach 'em through like, Hey, um, this is my goal. 356 00:18:30,138 --> 00:18:32,238 What do I do to get there? 357 00:18:32,658 --> 00:18:37,368 And it's all about giving people homework and making this whole feeling 358 00:18:37,368 --> 00:18:42,558 of I'm accountable to someone now and saying like, I have to achieve 359 00:18:42,558 --> 00:18:44,088 these little goals to reach there. 360 00:18:44,093 --> 00:18:45,438 And actually I was helping. 361 00:18:45,643 --> 00:18:51,433 One, um, beautiful human being, and she just got her first UX offer 362 00:18:51,433 --> 00:18:53,533 by the little changes . I know. 363 00:18:53,533 --> 00:18:55,003 I'm so happy for her. 364 00:18:55,393 --> 00:18:58,273 And when she messaged me, I was like, oh my goodness. 365 00:18:58,273 --> 00:19:02,953 Like, go and celebrate, but I'm also gonna be celebrating you and whatnot. 366 00:19:03,313 --> 00:19:07,753 So that was great to hear from her, but it was literally just these 367 00:19:07,753 --> 00:19:12,523 little tiny steps that add up to this big goal of her getting an 368 00:19:12,523 --> 00:19:15,443 offer that makes such a differe. 369 00:19:16,188 --> 00:19:21,548 But yeah, I offer mentorship and then for those who follow me on Twitter, I'll 370 00:19:21,548 --> 00:19:27,098 put out some quick hitting advice that I'm hearing from either my mentees or 371 00:19:27,098 --> 00:19:31,448 people that are like DMing me, asking me questions because there's so much 372 00:19:31,448 --> 00:19:34,478 out there that it's literally just. 373 00:19:35,018 --> 00:19:41,408 Little tiny steps that people need to be taking or something very small that 374 00:19:41,408 --> 00:19:42,818 they need to be informed about in the 375 00:19:42,818 --> 00:19:43,448 Eddie: industry. 376 00:19:43,598 --> 00:19:47,078 So you share information on your Twitter, then you occasionally take 377 00:19:47,168 --> 00:19:51,818 kind of these small cohort of people to just mentor, and then you have 378 00:19:51,818 --> 00:19:53,468 an official mentorship program. 379 00:19:53,828 --> 00:19:55,358 Beyond that is what you were. 380 00:19:56,173 --> 00:20:00,013 Nicole: Yeah, so if anyone wants to book time with me, I usually just 381 00:20:00,403 --> 00:20:04,633 take whatever problem that they have, like any UX designer or developer, 382 00:20:04,633 --> 00:20:09,673 and it's like, okay, how do we break this down so that you can achieve this 383 00:20:10,213 --> 00:20:14,623 just like atomic principles where it's like you have this big thing that you 384 00:20:14,623 --> 00:20:19,933 need to design, but how are we going to build it up and actually like ship 385 00:20:19,933 --> 00:20:21,493 it out and make it a real product? 386 00:20:21,793 --> 00:20:22,573 Eddie: That's awesome. 387 00:20:22,783 --> 00:20:23,113 Yeah. 388 00:20:23,113 --> 00:20:23,533 So. 389 00:20:24,353 --> 00:20:30,803 If anyone is finding themselves running into challenges and needing to to have 390 00:20:30,803 --> 00:20:35,333 some help, definitely we'll include all the information in the show notes so 391 00:20:35,338 --> 00:20:40,283 you can reach out to Nicole and when she has an opening and can work with you. 392 00:20:40,283 --> 00:20:42,173 Hopefully that will help. 393 00:20:42,233 --> 00:20:42,903 Awesome. 394 00:20:43,103 --> 00:20:45,653 Well, Nicole, thank you so much for coming on today. 395 00:20:45,653 --> 00:20:49,673 It's been a pleasure just chatting and getting to know you, hearing your story. 396 00:20:50,098 --> 00:20:54,358 Kind of nerding out a little bit about atomic principles and like life, you 397 00:20:54,358 --> 00:20:55,858 Nicole: know, . Yeah. 398 00:20:55,858 --> 00:20:57,658 I really appreciate being on here. 399 00:20:57,688 --> 00:20:58,948 Thank you so much. 400 00:20:59,098 --> 00:20:59,968 Absolutely. 401 00:21:00,508 --> 00:21:03,688 Eddie: And everyone, thank you for listening and have a great day. 402 00:21:05,766 --> 00:21:08,676 Thank you for joining us for episode 34. 403 00:21:08,946 --> 00:21:11,046 Little pieces, all fitting together. 404 00:21:11,346 --> 00:21:15,276 With Nicole, Frank, you can find out more about Nicole on her website. 405 00:21:15,576 --> 00:21:16,476 Nicole Frank. 406 00:21:16,536 --> 00:21:17,166 Dot com. 407 00:21:17,646 --> 00:21:20,046 And you can find her all across the interwebs. 408 00:21:20,796 --> 00:21:24,336 You can find links to everything we talked about in this episode, as well 409 00:21:24,336 --> 00:21:28,416 as a link to Nicole's website and social media accounts in the show notes. 410 00:21:29,226 --> 00:21:32,856 And if you enjoy this episode, why not help others discover it as well? 411 00:21:33,216 --> 00:21:36,246 Give us a shout-out on your favorite social media platform. 412 00:21:36,576 --> 00:21:40,716 And tag a friend or coworker that you think would enjoy the episode. 413 00:21:41,076 --> 00:21:44,076 Don't forget to follow us wherever you hang out online. 414 00:21:44,466 --> 00:21:46,836 Or subscribe to our newsletter to stay up to date. 415 00:21:47,406 --> 00:21:50,466 Thank you for listening and have a great day.