Dear, dear listener, hi, this is John Dupuy. I want to ask a favor of you. If you like the podcast A Deep Transformation and you're getting a lot out of it, could you please help us by going to wherever you get your podcast, it's a Spotify or Apple or wherever it is, and write, write a review that would really help us to get this out. We really believe in what we're doing and we're really praying and hoping this is helping people and being part of the solution. So if you could do that, it would be greatly appreciated by Roger, myself and our team. God bless. Thank you.

Welcome to part two of our conversation with Dr. Sally Adnams Jones where she takes us through the current world political situation with a brilliant meta and frankly, jaw dropping clarity. Welcome to Deep Transformation. Self, society, Spirit, life enhancing, paradigm rattling conversations with cutting edge thinkers, contemplatives and activ. With Dr. Roger Walsh and John Dupuy. Join us in the evolutionary fast lane as we take a deep dive into transformational practice. Peak experience, profound understanding, powerful contribution.

With that said, we've got a yin and yang polarization. Trump looks at Canada and says, you are my worst nightmare. You're dei. South Africa's even more extreme dei. He's got that in his mind.

We should just say diversity, equity, inclusion, probably everyone knows, but just so we make it clear.

So how do we bring these back into healthy balance? From a personal point of view, Canada has been working really hard with America for decades and our economy and our security and our nationalities have become more and more integrated. So that's the feminine, the communal. We have merged to some extent. That's the feminine. Trump is saying, no, we need to become separate. That's the masculine, the parts and the whole. And we've agreed, we think this is now important, that we separate from America, that we become more accountable for our own generation of resources, our own security, our own economic independence. It's critical. So there's a, if you step back, it's the movement between parts and whole played out in politics. One is yang, one is yin, and the two value sets are trying to figure each other out. And they're both essential. I'm not going to decry or pathologize either one. If you look through history, all we ever do is oscillate between the two. So this is normal, this is healthy. However, we need to take into account the threats, the threats to our sovereignty, which is a non consensual breach of our independence, which is a threat economically. But really that's just A disguise for his desire to turn us into a vassal 51st state. So Canadians have become united about this threat to our sovereignty. It's an illegal, imperialistic threat which Americans are not aware of. They think it's a good idea to just merge with Canada. So.

Well, not all of them.

I think it's a horrible idea. Just for the record. It offends the hell out of me.

But anyway, half of the country realized that we're two separate states, and the other half are looking at our resources, our rare earth minerals, our lumber, our oil, our land and the Arctic. So it's a security issue, too. So there are several things we're doing. We have a wonderful new prime minister. He's a centrist. I'm a centrist because I'm a daoist. We need to bring opposites together. Our previous prime minister was to the left, so he didn't look at things like militarization and security and the more masculine aspects of becoming independent economically. He looked at merging. He was more feminine in his politics. So the new Mr. Carney, our new prime minister, is a centrist. He really believes in bringing these two things together. He's an integral politician, which I find fascinating. He believes in dei, and he also believes in militarization and security and work building a country, the masculine Yang energy. So he is trying to unite us, and he's very much succeeding. He's appealing to the conservatives who want to atomize, strip the country of resources, ignore climate change. And he wants to also include indigenous wisdom. We have tremendous indigenous wisdom in this country. He wants to include women and people of color and disability. So he is a uniting, integral leader, which is interesting. Not only that, He's a brilliant PhD in macroeconomics and has extraordinary experience in not only leading, he was governor of bank of Canada. He's the gov. He was invited to be the extraordinary, the governor of the bank of England during Brexit because he's a uniter and he understands yin and yang in the economic field. It's in extraordinary times for Canada, and he is not apologetic. He is not taking this line down. He's extremely assertive about Trump's imperialism and has asserted our independence and we're now coordinating with Europe. I could go on and on. I don't know if you want the details of how we're doing that.

Well, how did it feel when it first. When Trump started his bullying tactics and said, you don't even have a right to exist as a country, that was historical mistake should have never happened. And you'll be much happier if you're a 52nd state. And I'll do whatever it takes. Threatening, even military. I. I doubt there's American soldier that would attack Canada, but, I mean, in his, you know, his mind. So how did that feel? What was the impact?

Yeah. So let's get into the body here for a moment. John. Every single Canadian is deeply traumatized right now. I'll be honest. We know that we're 10% in size of your economy. We are the little brother here. There's no doubt if Trump wants to take us, he can. He's about to spend, you know, a trillion dollars on his military. He's got the biggest military in the world. We have been traditionally peacekeepers in the world. We have a very small military. It's less than 100,000 soldiers. We don't have the equipment you have. We know that if Trump wants us, he will take us, and that is very profound. We also know that nobody will come to our aid because NATO has been demolished successfully. So who would risk taking on the United States as a NATO and America? Threatening a NATO ally is unprecedented. It was inconceivable 10 years ago. So we're adjusting to this very real threat. It's a very real possibility, and we're trying to figure out how he could do it. He could take Greenland, which he thinks is in his rights to do, for security for the globe. But if he attacks a NATO ally, which is Denmark, Canada will be drawn into that irrevocably. We always, it's our tradition, fight for the allies. We did that in both world wars. We've done that. It's our history. We will have to support Denmark. Wow. I mean, it's inconceivable. Trump's main idea is to get hold of the Arctic, and that is Canadian territory at this point, and he will use a lot of reasoning, false reasoning around that to do that. So we are under no illusion, number one, that he wants our rare earth minerals for his oligarchs, and he wants them in Ukraine and he wants them in South Africa. So what he does is divisive politics to destroy those democracies. Let's collapse the leadership, and we will gain access. I'm speaking frankly here now. And Canadians are under no illusion that it's not that he wants us as a cherished partner, which is the language of abuse. Let's call you the cherished partner when actually all we want to do is take your resources. So the language isn't consistent with the threat and the action, and we're aware of that. So militarily, for example, it's our feeling that the US has become under the Trump regime, and I'll use that word because he's moving into fascist authoritarianism. He's becoming an arms dealer. So he wants all the NATO allies to increase their budget from 2% to 5% to arm themselves against threats, threats which are never named. What he really means is you guys need to all spend your money with our military industrial complex. It's a trade economic warfare, but we'll put the context as possible. Atomic warfare. And most of our military budget as Canadians was spent with the American industrial military complex. We can't do that anymore. So it's backfired horribly on Trump. Let's just be frank. His threats, instead of being statesmanlike negotiations with NATO allies, he has alienated us all. And we will now create this 5% of our GDP spending amongst ourselves. So we are canceling the F35s that you are going to make. We've partnered with Australia to have over horizon radar. We're going to buy our military aircraft from possibly Sweden or France. We will partner with our NATO allies. And we don't really consider. Trump has removed himself from NATO.

He has.

We have to respond. We can no longer buy military equipment that we don't trust. He has said that there will be difficulty with spare parts, that he could put a fail mechanism in the F35s. So we will do our NATO obligation. We will increase our military spending, but it will be elsewhere. Now he's extorting us this week.

That's the word. Yeah.

With threatening. If we don't spend 60 billion with his military industrial complex, his Golden Dome vision won't include us.

We should say the Golden Dome is.

A defense anti ballistic missile defense system.

Yeah, yeah. Sally, if there's more you want to say about this too, but I wonder, you grew up in a very destructive political environment in South Africa. So you see, you've lived in. Lived in this. And I wonder, do you draw? How do you put those. These together if you do.

Yeah. So I had a very, very interesting life, Roger, because I grew up in a country that was on the verge of civil war in South Africa. And at that time, America was very instrumental in condemning apartheid and sanctioning South Africa and being the moral leader of the Western world. I lived through America standing in its righteous contempt of fascism and abuse of anybody that wasn't a white male. So I grew up under the threat of constant civil war. I was in a. For example, a brief story. I was in a pub and I left. And an hour later, that pub blew up with a bomb blast. We were in the middle of horrific civil unrest, which is why I came to Canada in 1989. I did not want my two sons to be raised in a civil war because as white men, they would be conscripted into fighting and then later they would be discriminated against in the workplace. Once democracy happened, that's another whole story of how South Africa has become what it fought against. That's. Now Trump is trying to put the spotlight on reverse racism. So, long story short, I grew up very politicized. From the age of 14, I was aware of left and right politics. What is communism, what is fascism, what is Marxism? Or very different things. And the language today is just thrown around. It means nothing, but they have specific meanings. And I grew up with white male supremacy. That becomes a hegemony in the culture that you don't even know it's there until you become aware of it. And I had to become aware of it as. As a citizen who wanted to live in alignment with my conscience. I had to either reckon with how do I become an activist and a resistor of this, or do I leave? There were lots of reasons I did both. I even fought for the anti apartheid movement. I had to leave the country to do that. And I went to Britain. There's a whole thing there. Anyway, so I did try that. And then I immigrated to Canada, which is the country whose politics I align with as a social democracy. I'm a centrist. So this now is a new opportunity to bring my youth back into my awareness and go, wow, I've seen this before. This is. This is a reversal. The American idea of democracy that championed my values is now championing democracy in a very different way, which is looking more like supremacies and fascism or a hyper masculine politics. So one thing I would like to say to your listeners, because I have a very deep compassion for people going through this. I've lived through it. And I just want to say fascism never lasts long. It can't. It's not sustainable. I saw the end of it myself in a 1994 fascism, also called apartheid came to an end because the forces of democracy are just too strong and people won't let it last. But when you're going through it, it's very traumatic and it's a sense of moral injury for half the country. They don't want to be part of what they see as abuse, and they feel silenced because it's now becoming dangerous. To speak out or to even criticize knowing the steps of how these things happen in my country. Martial law was then part of our existence. I myself had my house watched, my phone was tapped. There were even secret police sent into my community, one of whom tried to date me to get information from me about the resistance. So things become extremely dangerous and just take hope from the fact that they can't last because they're not sustainable. And the main thing is to not fall prey to violence because one of the most difficult things is entrapment. People can pretend to be part of the resistance to instigate violence, which gives reason for arrest and which gives reason for martial law. So people feeling uncomfortable right now, do what you can, use your voice, use your legal rights. Resist, but non violently is my suggestion because we don't want to make this worse than it is. And most Europeans, most Canadians see it for what it is. We're hoping it's temporary. This presidential term can't last forever. There will be a correction. Yeah, we've got to stand solid, we've got to stand for justice, but be patient and non violent.

Yeah.

Sally, if you make the point that fascism is inherently unstable, it doesn't last. But one major reason it hasn't lasted has been active resistance and passionate sacrifice by a lot of people, in some cases unfortunately, second World War. But do you have any other practical how to steps for people who want to make sure for this country doesn't descend into, into authoritarianism or descend.

This is an extremely sensitive matter. There's always a line that cannot be crossed. People like Gandhi, who was also in South Africa and who's a hero of mine, people like Nelson Mandela, who was a South African, who's a hero of mine, these people I respect and admire found ways to be resistant and always had a line that cannot be crossed. So establishing what is that line, how do we agree upon that line and what are the actions we will take once that line is crossed? And those two gentlemen were both lawyers, it's important to note they knew the law backwards so they fought legally, which your justice system is doing. This week Trump's tariffs have been denounced as illegal. So that's the one front is do it non violently with the law, do it with sit ins and marches and protests. But there's a line that if that's crossed, there has to be physical resistance. Mandela himself chose to do that.

He, that's why they locked him up, because he, he said there that is a possibility.

If it was. Yeah, so what he did and he's the only person to have got a Nobel Peace Prize and be a terrorist. So the two exist. There needs to be a line that's demarcated and articulated. And at some point he chose to take up arms. He actually left the country. He got funding from other countries and created an army. In contra was seaswe and he armed Russian. The Russians armed him with AK47s and he started blowing up infrastructure and then they arrested him as a terrorist. He called himself a freedom fighter. So that's interesting. And they put him in prison for 27 years and then he was able to come out and negotiate the new dispensation. So at some point we don't do conciliation. Neville Chamberlain discovered that sometimes conciliation is a disaster.

Yeah. How did that work with Putin by the way? You know, didn't do a damn thing.

And on the other hand, Gandhi for example was absolutely committed to non violence, as was Martin Luther King.

Yeah, two different paths. One takes a lot longer but eventually fascism falls. So that's interesting. One is violent and one is nonviolent. You have to have massive amounts of coordination for the non violent path. You have to have massive collective sit ins, protests, disabling of function, but it does capitulate regimes Capitulate, Yeah.

How do you awaken the American conscience? You know, is a good question to, you know, what we thought we were.

There is a study out of Harvard which is getting a lot of press at the moment which argues that looking across historical examples, it takes somewhere between 3 and 4% of the population actively involved in civil resistance or of one kind or another in order to affect dramatic transformation.

So Roger, just to encourage you that the rest of the world is with the 50% who are struggling with this regime and let me tell you, we're becoming coordinated resistors too. So in South Africa, external coordinated resistance helped collapse the regime. We're doing that now. So Canadians have stopped buying American products, we've stopped traveling to America. That's billions of dollars. We're not supporting your military industrial complex. We're coordinating with new economic partnership, including brics if need be, that China, Russia, Indian and South African community, which is extremely powerful. If America wants to sanction Mexico and Canada, we need to supply and market elsewhere. So that refusal to play with Trump is going to help the 50% of Americans who don't agree with Trump because they're going to feel it financially and sadly that's sometimes the only way to get non.

That's truly sometimes the only way. I have a conservative friend and it was all good. Trump was doing a good thing, but he did, he deals in the fertilizer industry. So then all the fertilizer stuff that we get from Canada for our farmers here, all of a sudden the prices are going up and all of a sudden he kind of develop a conscience. Oh, maybe this is not okay. And it's really sad and sorry, but when it starts threatening your wallet, you know, and your, your, your businesses and then people resist, you know, and, and some people just have a conscience that can just see it from a higher level and realize how wrong it is. I'm, I'm really impressed with your analysis. You know, we went from Taoism to world politics very well and you're really a good example of masculine and feminine thinking in one package. I must say. It's painful to listen to, but it's really good. Thank you.

So just to help your listeners who are American, Canadians still love you very, very much. We're trying to be strategic with our own counter tariffs red states, we're counter terrifying red states because we understand the blue states are feeling really abandoned right now. We're supporting you in this way even though it's painful. So just to say that we understand that this is the leadership that we're questioning, not the American people in general.

That'S very big of you, Sally.

I'm really impressed at how extremely well informed you are about what John was saying of a range of things from art and therapy to contemporary politics. And you're very well informed about contemporary politics and some of the issues and factors about government, etc. Do you have any, do you have reflections on the fact that this rise of authoritarianism is not unfortunately isolated to America, but is happening in many parts of the world? Hungary, Turkey, etc. And unfortunately some of our politicians have been going and bowing at the feet of the Hungarian president. So any comments on the larger movement here towards authoritarianism?

Yeah, this is a very tricky question because I think we're moving from nationalism now into a more world centric perspective. So when we get to look, try to look at the global dynamics, the macroeconomics of this, there's polarization happening. China, Russia, America being the biggest place players. Those presently with the present current regime in America are right wing institutions. So at the top, we've got a lot of top down leadership that wants to do social engineering on their cultures and are happy to use propaganda and misinformation and large militaries to including in America the encouragement of militias right now. So using the law and the military against their own people. So that's problematic. Globally. There's this power play between the three biggest players and they're all conservative, militaristic, right wing, male dominated philosophies that played down. There's no trickle up, it's oligarchal. So the rest of the minor players, like the new alliances in Europe, Japan, Australia, New Zealand and Canada, South Korea, where democracies that have different value sets but we're not as powerful. So that's really interesting. Our only way to become powerful is to unite and we're doing that through our democratic values and our economic trade. We have to survive this and we will pull together as the fourth pull. We have to do that. What's complicating this is the American oligarchs, who we would call the techno bros who are using their digital weapons to cause divisiveness in the fourth pole. In other words, destroy Europe by trying to make it more right wing. They naturally tend towards social democracy and Scandinavian countries in particular have the highest happiness levels, the highest levels of education, the highest medical care. Social democracy is labeled as communism. In America. It's not even accurate, but that what we're up against is the misinformation and the lies that the tech bros are spreading about the failure of democracy. They never cite the beautiful examples we have of social democracies that are highly functional. So they're using their digital abilities to grow right wing platforms in other people's countries. And they particularly are preying upon young men. So we have that issue is the radicalization of young men back to a right wing ideal of the 50s that never existed for anybody else but white men. The 50s were a disaster for everybody else. But they're growing this narrative that if you don't militarize as a group and insist that everybody else submit to you, you will have lost all your privileges. So this right wing tendency to militarize, reassert a certain type of masculinity, not an integral masculinity, a hyper masculinity of needing subservience and being prepared to fight for your privilege that that's coming into play here. It's a very complex issue. So there's a ground up problem of the radicalization of young white men and a global problem of a swing to the right with the Polariz.

Sally. I had a family member who is kind of in the Fox News bubble, right, Lives in that universe. She wasn't aware of any of the stuff about Trump and what he's done to Canada. So there's a large part of the population that they don't hear that they don't hear that on their news so called. That's been a tremendous hurt for this. How successful these propaganda issues have been in organizing people under these right wing basically lies. And Elon Musk has been going over to Europe and meeting with the leaders of these far right parties in Germany and in Britain, I know for sure. So there is that kind of using his wealth and influence to stir that up. But at the same time it's causing people to go, hey, democracy is precious, you know. And there was a novel, I forget that Sinclair Lewis I think wrote back in the 30s in the United States. And it was called It Can't Happen Here. And it was about a populist politician who got elected and moved United States into a fascist system. We heard that in the 60s too, I think was Frank Zappa wrote a song or an album, you can't happen here. And we always thought that, thought we were above it. It couldn't happen. We're America, we have democracy. It's what we do. We led the world. There are constitutional ideas and all this stuff, but it is happening and it can happen, but it can also make people appreciate freedom more and do what they have to do to conserve it and hopefully bring it back. And hopefully this is just a, a small it. It. As you're saying fascism can't last for long. Let's hope that it doesn't last very long in America. Kind of wakes up and go, no, this is not okay. And it may cause. It may take a financial disaster to happen for people to actually resist.

John, I'd love to add one point to that and that is, although it seems like we're repeating history and that we've seen this before, there's new elements that we've never seen before. So I don't want to be smug and always say this, this will end. We have added challenges, one of which is climate change that we're ignoring because right wing fascist leaders like to keep your attention in a small bubble. So there's that. That's new. We never faced that before. The other one is AI and the fact that the tech Bros have now taken over the skies.

Satellites.

The satellites. And they will be using that weaponry. It will turn to weaponry, which is part of the Golden Dome project, by the way. It will be from the skies. And so the tech bros have a body of knowledge that nobody else understands. And they will be assuming total power because they can, because we haven't stopped them, because nobody has put limits on AI. That's a huge danger that we have never faced before. So I don't want to be smug and say fascism always ends traditionally it has where we have new challenges, one of which is that the American tech bros and I include Elon Musk and Peter Thiel were both South Africans.

Interesting.

History. And I just want to briefly talk about that. They grew up in apartheid. They advocate for white male supremacy and they call that Western ideology. So some of this is correct, some of it's not. I don't want to be the one thing they advocate for, which is a new aspect of the fascist dilemma that we haven't faced before is what they call the great replacement theory. They are scared that white people are not reproducing at the same rate as other people. From their supremacy perspective, this puts Western civilization under threat.

They're not from Utah apparently, and they're.

Blaming women because women become empowered and they're not reproducing at the same rate. So white women, this is behind the scenes. White women are to them the critical linchpin of their theory. They need to take back their bodily sovereignty. They need to remove their abortion rights and they need to, this is coming, remove contraception and they need to start propagandizing about women staying in the home, recreating the 50s and having seven babies.

Yeah, and we should probably point out, Sally, that this is also part of a larger picture that a similar thing is happening both in China and Russia with similar kind of attitudes towards women and considerable political pressure to have more kids.

So this is part of the right wing move in the three major powers. So this is interesting, Roger, you point this out. This is now a global trend to make women responsible for the future of. It's basically eugenics. It's eugenics. Musk himself has. Believes his DNA is superior and he has 14 babies that we know of and some people say making his sperm freely available. This is a new aspect to the fascism. Eugenics has always been there, but now it can be propagated across the world through the digital Internet.

Well, it was definitely the Nazi Nazi plan. I mean it goes right back to Adolf Hitler and Nazi Germany. The same thing with women and the master race and white people and women were breeders. That was their primary function.

Yeah, so that's why you take women out of the military, take them out of all the leadership, you take away their physical bodily sovereignty, you take away contraception and abortion. We're left with economic dependence on men again, which is what they would like, so that we Become basically breeders again.

Yeah. And I was going to mention, there's approximately 11,000 satellites above the Earth, summer stationary. And some are circling. And although 11,000, Elon Musk owns 7,000 of these satellites, people don't realize it. Fact check me on this. Okay. Fact check everything.

If he, if he could do what he did in Ukraine, which is cut off their Internet to make them behave, South Africa's noted that and won't take Starlink because they don't want to give Musk that power over there. So if he part of Trump's tariff deals now have become. We will make a deal with you if you take Starlink. Yeah, yeah. So global domination in the future is who has control of the skies. Because not only will that be the communication points, it will be digital surveillance, it will also be weaponry, the golden dome. So we are facing challenges with fascism as a repeat cycle, but in a whole new level.

Yeah, we never had the tools before that we have now. They didn't have the tools.

Yeah, it's a whole new range of challenges. And I'd like to add something, Sally, to your points about how do we, how do we respond? And it seems like, you know, you've, you've made some cogent suggestions, but it seems like the very question, what can I do? What's, you know, how, how do I, how can I respond? First, I think there it's a particular kind of question. It's, it's not just something you, you have an answer immediately. It's really a wisdom question which requires pondering over time. And there's no, unlike a simple knowledge question, it doesn't have a one time answer. It can unfold as we feel deeper into the question and deeper into ourselves. So this question, you know, for responding to multiple things, whether it's, you know, climate change or, or authoritarianism, you know, is what can I do? But below that, there's a question of what's what calls me because there's so many responses that are needed. And so what's the one, what kind of suffering, what issue, what challenge calls me and moves me and resonates in my heart? And we're much more likely to be to maintain focus and effective work for something we feel impassioned about. The third question is, what's the most strategic thing I can do? Those of us who are unfortunate, privileged positions have a number of things we could probably do. But the question becomes, what's the most strategic thing I can do? And where do I, where should I put my energy? And so it feels like all those are a part of this. And then for those of us of a spiritual orientation, it's all part of a lifelong question. How do I live my life so as to be an effective instrument of service, of awakening, of helping, of healing. So these are, these are just to acknowledge how deep these questions that you're raising go and that they are gonna, they're probably questions which will be with us hopefully for the rest of our lives. Hopefully not, not about fascism and authoritarianism. Hopefully, you're right. And that will, that will pass not only in America, but in many places. But these kind of questions will remain because the great issues that we're facing, as you're pointing out, not short term, they're with us for a long, long time. And we're going to have to live with and respond to them if we're to maintain even a survivable planet.

Yeah, you asked the perennial question. Really, Roger, which is how to stay on your bricks.

How to stay on the bricks. Okay, that's a good question.

I learned in China from the master was how do you stay grounded? How do you stay balanced? How do you meet your opponent? How do you learn when to surrender? These are the perennial questions. So I do believe that even though it feels intense right now, intensity is in cycles. We've had 50 years of peace and calm, economic prosperity, and now we're back in a cycle of pressure. And in cycles of pressure, the masculine always comes to the fore. That's the fight and flight and the autonomic nervous system. In times of peace, we go back into parasympathetic and we can relax and create so we can. My brief answer to you would be understand polarity. We're in a complex system of working with the nervous system at the core. Am I in fight and flight because my survival is threatened? Am I in rest and digest because I'm safe? I can go into my feminine or do I go into my masculine? Learning to self regulate is to me the fundamental skill that I'm daily tested with right now.

I have a suggestion. I don't think it works to out argue somebody. Get all your bullet points and just bury them. It just use, it causes resistance. One thing that I've tried to do and it ain't easy is to learn, for example, why MAGA feels the way they do and to be able to explain to them in language they can understand why they feel that way and they feel deeply heard and deeply understood. And at that point communication can start to happen. But if we just get angry and blow up, know Goddamn Nazis and blah, blah, blah, blah. Can't you see what's going on? That, that doesn't help. But there is a way of, of deeply understanding why these people have made the choices they've made and seeing it through their eyes and still being compassionate and, and to, to operate from that, that very open and deeply compassionate level, but at the same time with, with courage and strength. So it's, it's quite a, Quite an order.

Well, we're talking about an art here and a skill. Yeah. Sally, we're probably coming towards the end of our time here. Is there anything else you'd like to add?

I can only speak from my own experience that I am really enjoying connecting with nature while it's still here.

Yes.

I find that a daily practice for me to stay grounded. I actually go dig in the soil. I have a garden and I get really into big picture stuff by looking at soil and how weeds operate. Just in the garden is the same dynamic of who are the competitive plants, who are the symbiotic parasites. As I'm weeding, I see this as pattern of emergence. It's everywhere. And how do we tend that garden is the perennial question. And that garden is right inside me as well. It's in my gut. It's in my bio. The competition and cooperation that Darwin noticed is at every scale of existence, and it's inside me too. So just noticing I'm a fractal of the cosmic principles and how to work with that dynamic is, for me, a lifetime's journey. If I just do that one thing, I'll be happy.

That's beautiful. I love your. It sounds like your Taoist side is coming, coming out here. And I have a sense of you, you doing what the channel. One of the challenges for all of us is to do is to flow with, flow with the moment. And as the Dallas would say, or in Confucians even more to, to feel into what is called for and appropriate in this moment.

Yeah. And I just wanted to put this in. You were talking about nature the day after Trump was reelected. I got my truck and my dog and we went out into the high deserts of Utah and just hung out there in this vast, open, incredibly beautiful place. And it really helped me, you know, I, I should, I, I other. If I'd have just stayed in the house and I'd have been much more depressed and much more beaten. But just the power of, of the natural world that, that we come from is palliative. It's, it's healing. It helps. I'm not exactly sure why, but I spent a lot of time in wilderness, and it. And it does seem to help, whether you're, you know, you have your little rose in the window that you water every day or whatever, or you go out in the wilderness or go to the parks like you're talking about the Chinese in the center. Connecting with nature helps us to be connected with deeper patterns of existence and get through these dark, hard times.

Yeah, I really go back to the couple of sentences at the beginning. Meaning is found in work. Love and appreciation of beauty is the one I'd add. And so those are my daily practices, and it gives me all the meaning I've ever needed. I don't have a meaning crisis.

Well, it's beautiful that you rediscovered for yourself the same conclusions that Sigmoid. Sigmund Freud came to, that what counted in the end was love and work. Yeah. Beautiful. And you've produced some beautiful work. Sally. Your art therapy and your work with survivors and refugees is incredible. And your book, Art Making with Refugees and Survivors, is profoundly moving. So thank you very much for all you've. You've done and are doing, and thank you for your very deep reflections on the larger social political issues.

Really, really, really useful. Thank you.

Yeah. As we come to an end. Thank you. Thank you also to our team who make this possible behind the behind the scenes, our manager, Heidi Mitchell, and our tech whiz, Vanessa Santos, without whom this would not be appearing. So thank you, everyone, and thank you.

Listening and I might add, the community that is has latched onto this thing and made it grow much faster than we ever imagined that support this podcast and for the incredible people that we get to connect with and for all of you out there, God bless and. And let's get through this together.

Thank you.

John and Roger, thank you very much for being a part of this conversation. We hope that you were moved, as we are moved, being part of it ourselves. We'd also like to say that this is being funded by Roger and myself. It comes out of our pockets. So if you would like to help us to. Mainly to get this podcast out to more people because the bigger audience have, which is steadily growing, but the more people we can reach and the more marketing we can do, the more positive effect we can have on the world. So we've done that a couple of ways, but we'd like you to buy us a cup of coffee. Very simple. And I do that with podcasts that I support, and I find it's very satisfying. So thank you for your help. Thank you for your presence. And thank you for all you are and all you do. We love you.

Sa.