First Corinthians 14, 26, 33, and the new American Standard Bible reads, what is the outcome then?

Brothers and sisters, when you assemble, each one has a psalm, has a teaching, has a revelation, has a tongue, has an interpretation.

All things are to be done for edification.

If anyone speaks in a tongue, it must be by two or at the most, three in each, one in turn, and one is to interpret.

But if there is no interpreter, he is to keep silent in the church and have him speak to himself and to God.

Have two or three prophets speak and have the others pass judgment.

But if a revelation is made to another who is seated, then the first one is to keep silent.

For you can all prophesy one by one, so that all may learn and all may be exhorted.

And the spirits of the prophets are subject to prophets.

For God is not a God of confusion, but of peace.

In this pericope of scripture, St.

Paul just finished discussing the gifts of the Spirit, the importance of love above any of the gifts, and here he's in the middle of describing how we should order the exercise of our spiritual gifts during the church service.

Father Costello, how can this message for order in our churches help us today?

Well, first, I think that the first pivot that we have to make is that this is talking about an intuitive love and not an institutional movement.

This isn't natural.

This is something spiritual.

And it's a spiritual exercise, which I think causes a deeper commitment to the interior life that we all possess.

Because when you look at that, it's talking about love in a much more descriptive way than sometimes we can be used to, because love is spoken a lot about in many different churches.

But it can be kind of ambiguous, and it talks about beautiful ways to do that.

The thing that comes to me right now is where it says that the prophets are subject to one another.

And that's what we don't want to believe in our culture and in the west especially, is that we're subject to one another in love, because that's not it.

That's not an authoritarian subject.

It's love subjecting us to one another because we're all made and shaped in the image of God.

So I would tell people, stick to the intuitive side of that scripture, but also lean into the part where it says we're subject to one another in love and not in an authoritarian way.

But the prophets are subject to one another because it's loving to submit to the unity of the church in that manner.

Yeah.

Amen.

Hey, everybody.

Welcome to the whole church.

Podcast, Possibly your favorite church unity podcast.

It's cool.

If it's not though, we really don't mind.

I am really excited for today's episode.

We are going to be just kind of introducing, getting you guys to know a new friend of ours, Father Costello, who he grew up as a Pentecostal.

He is now an independent Catholic priest and a spiritual director.

Also a TikTok influencer.

Interesting all around great guy that you guys should get to know because we're going to be doing an episode here in August to celebrate the first 100 days of folk John XIV.

Maybe celebrate is the wrong word.

Reflect on the first hundred days.

We'll see.

We'll see if it's celebrated or not.

When we get there.

Hopefully celebrate.

Yeah, hopefully it'll be a celebration.

Excited for this.

You know, we're just building up the.

The whole church MCU model.

The wcu.

Yeah.

And of course at the head isn't Kevin Feige, but the one whom Kevin Feige hopes to model himself after, the one and only tj.

Toby Swan Blackwell.

How's it going?

Good, thanks.

And like Josh said, we're here with Father Costello.

He is grown up Pentecostal, which we can all relate to, naturally.

Everyone who's hearing this now, congratulations, you grew up Pentecostal, now you're welcome.

They just didn't know.

Currently an independent Catholic priest and a spiritual director is a TikTok influencer.

And that's something that we struggle with is short form content.

I'll say almost struggle is the right word.

Simply don't do TikTok Incapable of just.

Short form in general.

Mm.

Yeah.

I mean, that's not something weird.

If I thought we were capable of it, I might be willing to do an Instagram reel.

Right?

But I'm not.

I don't think.

I don't think you are.

I'm too long winded.

Yeah, yeah.

But if you're listening to this, you should check out the Onazal Podcast network website.

The link is below for shows like ours.

And you can also pay to subscribe on Apple Podcasts to support us.

That way you get some extra content from all the shows in the network, including this one.

So check us out there, rate us, interview us while you're over there or wherever you listen to your podcasts.

The ratings go a long way.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

And nothing goes a long way for church unity.

It's going to be silliness.

It's holy sacrament here because you can't be in disarray when you're being as Silly as I like to be.

Today we have a special silly question.

TJ and I will answer first.

Give our father a little bit of time to think about it.

How would the cars in Cars play ping pong?

I actually want TJ to answer first.

Too much pressure for me.

Yeah.

Okay.

So there's a sport called Techball.

Not sure if you're aware of that.

Nope, it's ping pong, but the table's much shorter because it's played with your feet.

And a soccer ball.

So it'd be sort of like that.

I think in the Cars world, it would just be a short ping pong table and they would do as they do in the Cars universe and just have a comically sized ping pong paddle and just play it like a regular table and hold it just kind of floating next to their wheel because that's how they do things in there.

The images that come up on a Google tech ball are incredible.

Yeah, it's T, E, Q, B, A, L, L.

If someone's trying to look for it.

Yeah.

Which you should.

Super awesome to watch.

This is now all I want to see in life.

But you should also answer the question.

This looks like the most intense combination of soccer and ping pong ever.

I don't know why I feel like I'm gonna go opposite TJ here.

I think they have a massive ping pong table with a.

With a racetrack around it.

And two of them are just like racing back and forth, you know, on different sides of the track.

That's what I see it as, like just all high speed craziness.

Yeah, that's my thought process.

But yeah.

Fellow casts, where you at, man?

How do you think the cars and cars are playing ping pong?

Irregardless, it would be hands free.

That's all I have.

Hands free.

That's the.

That's the answer.

They're using Bluetooth battles.

Their approach is between them and God.

But it's gonna be hands.

Nothing to do with me.

Yeah, that's fair.

That's a good answer.

Question.

So before we get into the main topic, one thing that we noticed that helps engender Christian unity is to listen to one another's story.

So would you mind sharing with us some of your story and how you've come to the place you're at now with your faith?

I would say that the most common thing that I say to people is that I feel like I'm a fulfilled Pentecostal by coming to the ancient church and into the sacraments.

I mean, you know, we believe that when I consecrate the Eucharist, that the Spirit comes down in what we call the epiclesis and makes the bread and wine somehow, some way, mysteriously, into the body, blood, soul, and divinity of Jesus.

I don't think it's easy to escape a charismatic reality if you believe that there's a transformation of the elements.

So I would say that my Pentecostal path led me to, in many ways, the place that I am now, and that I'm more charismatic and more Pentecostal, being a Catholic priest, than.

Than I was even when I was in those spaces, because they're hungering for something, you know?

And when I was Pentecostal, always felt like we had something special, but we also were incomplete.

And I think Sacramentology brings people to a complete experience with the Holy Spirit because it brings the movement of the Spirit into our bodies and into our lives in a tangible and tactile way.

I like that.

I like that answer.

Yeah, that's very nice.

So was it like a deconstruction moment or like a specific thing that you question that made you want to change, or was it just once you started seeing how the sacraments was done that you were like, I need to shift gears here in my denomination?

Yeah, I don't think my.

I don't think sacrament.

The Sacramento part was my deconstruction.

I mean, that kind of came later, because when I was 18, that's when I started attending Mass.

And it was until I was.

It wasn't until I was 22 that I started going to the Episcopal Church and really encountering deconstruction.

But so I would say maybe the answer is, is that the Sacramentology was my construction phase.

And then later on, like liberation and to, like, queer theology and some of the great deconstructionists, like Brian McLaren and Brad Jursack and those kind of people came later.

Yeah, but sacrament came first.

Sacrament first.

Cool, cool, cool, cool.

All right.

Well, so one thing I just want to get off the bat, because I'm sure it's probably confusing to a lot of people.

Could you maybe explain for our listeners the difference between an independent Catholic Church and then the Roman Catholic Church, and then what relationship does your church still have with the Roman Catholic Church?

Well, the first is how we structure.

Our ecclesiology and our authority.

We don't have a pope.

That's the most digestible way to look at it.

Most of our communities are run by groups of bishops who are forming consensus rather than the capability for one person to come to infallible Conclusions.

We don't have a, we don't have a figurehead or a authority figure in the form of the papacy.

We're not under the authority of Pope Leo, we were not under the authority of Pope Francis.

And the way that that was born was that the Reformation was so hot in the Netherlands that there began to be this movement coming forth of reform Catholicism to some degree different than the Reformation of like Luther and Calvin, but a reshaping and an evolution of Catholicism that challenged the doctrine of papal infallibility and the dogmatic declaration of the Immaculate Conception.

And you know, so we're not under the Pope.

We come to conclusions by consensus, through synods of bishops and we reject papal infallibility in the doctrine of the Immaculate except the Immaculate Conception to some degree.

Some old Catholics do believe in the Immaculate Conception, but it's not a non negotiable.

That's interesting.

By the Immaculate Conception, do you mean the Immaculate Conception of Mary or also of Jesus?

So in regards to the, what the Immaculate Conception is, the basic way to describe the Immaculate Conception is, is that if Jesus is the Savior of the world and he's saving us from a virus, Mary was preserved from that virus from the beginning.

Jesus still had to save her.

But there's this sense that she was preserved from the mark of original sin in the Roman Church because Jesus took away that virus from the beginning rather than.

So at her conception.

The whole sin situation was taken care of.

And I won't say whether I believe that or not, but that's the, of Rome.

And that was dogmatized, made major doctrine, made major teaching in Rome.

And the original old Catholics, the original independent Catholics, had an issue with that.

Okay, I can understand how that makes a lot more sense than my initial thought, which was Jesus being, you know, an immaculate concept.

Right.

Okay.

I can see why someone would have a problem with that though.

Yeah, that's interesting.

A lot of people kind of conflate the Virgin birth and the Immaculate Conception.

Yeah.

So there is one thing we like to do that helps our audience and ourselves get to know you better.

And we call it our speed round segment.

And we're going to ask you a series of questions about what you believe and ask that you try to answer each and a single question.

You can just say you want to skip it, that's fine.

We're not allowed to ask you any follow up questions.

And there's just, what is it?

Nine, ten questions.

So one sentence, I'm ready or you can skip it, either one is fine.

You ready?

All right.

I'm ready.

Who or what is God?

I would say that God is the one thing that just is.

He was not created.

All right.

What is salvation?

Salvation is when the human soul, by the invitation of God, it's drawn into a unity with God.

What is the significance of baptism and the Eucharist?

Baptism brings us into the family of God in the sense that it is the ordinary means of grace.

It doesn't mean there aren't other ways, but it's the way that God instituted through the church to bring people into the family of God.

And the Eucharist is.

Girl.

Oh, my God.

How can you.

How can you answer that in one.

One question?

But I would say that in regards to relating it to the salvation question, the Eucharist is one of the ways that we consume God to become God.

All right.

What authority does scripture have?

Wow.

The authority that Scripture has in the church primarily is a centerpiece of an ongoing conversation about God within the church.

That's, I think, the most.

That's the authority that I can give it because it's something that I wrestle with a lot.

What should the Bible be to the church?

What authority does tradition have?

I think it anchors us in the most important things about our faith.

It doesn't necessarily have the final word all the way to the end and fill in all the details, but tradition is kind of like the skeletal model of a home, but yet you don't necessarily have the couch in there.

When you have the skeleton of home, you don't necessarily have the sink built yet, but it gives us a living and breathing structure that we ought not stray from.

All right.

Do you believe in a continuation of the gifts of the spirit?

100%.

I can't see a church that doesn't have the continuation of the gifts.

The only way for the church to cease to have the gifts is for the church to cease to have the Holy Spirit.

Not only do I believe in the continuation of the gifts, I believe it's impossible for any community to not experience them.

That even means, like in John MacArthur's church, where he completely denies them, the Spirit shows up.

That's the way it works.

If Jesus is mentioned, the Holy Spirit's going to show up charismatically.

It's.

It's.

It's kind of like gravity.

You can't really deny it.

You can say all day long that gravity is not true, but I'm sitting in this chair right now because it's true.

So if so, would you say the initial evidence of that is speaking in tongues?

No.

I struggle with that question, because I feel like that the.

That kind of pins the.

The baptism of the Holy Spirit into one linear moment, kind of like this moment in time.

I believe that the timeless nature of the Spirit, that there are many baptisms in the Holy Spirit and there are many evidences of that.

I mean, the Spirit can baptize us to love our neighbor more deeply.

The Spirit can baptize us to speak in tongues.

It can baptize us to be drawn toward the Eucharist.

So I.

I won't.

I won't pin the Spirit's baptism down to a singular moment.

All right.

Can God change?

God is suffering with us.

God is experiencing us every moment of our life because he lives in us.

Therefore, if something changes in us, God experiences a change.

I don't think his essence and nature changes, but I think because he experiences who we are constantly, that his experience is ever changing in that regard.

What do you love about the Bible?

What do I love about the Bible?

Yeah, I like that it looks more like us than we would kind of want it to.

It's imperfect.

It has bizarre sides to it.

It has glorious sides to it.

And I think it looks more like the human soul than we could imagine.

And it reveals God.

So it reveals God in us.

It reveals the power and the perfection of God, but it reveals the fragility of humanity.

And I think that's pretty badass, in my opinion.

Yeah, I think we want the Bible to fall out of the sky, but it emerges from humanity, and I think we're threatened by that.

And I think it's beautiful that it came from humans.

I think that makes it more holy in an incarnational sense.

It's a very poetic way to look at the Bible.

I know some people who would love that.

So what do you love about the Church?

I think it's similar that it's always bad and it's always good.

And when people get really high on the positivity of the church, we can see its shadow and it can be kind of earthy and approachable.

But when people look at it scandal, the reaction ought not be to run away, but to lean in to it, because there's also power and.

And the presence of God there.

So I like that the church has a shadow and a shining because I think that makes it real.

So which, if any, of the seven sacraments do you follow?

All seven and all the ones that we can't label.

I think that life is sacramental, but I believe that the major seven are a good categorical organization for the main ones, but I won't limit those seven.

I think that there's, there's a lot of sacramental nature to the world that we, we don't know about.

All right, well, congratulations.

You've completed your first whole church speed round.

But we made it.

It can be hard, it can be difficult.

We made it, we made it.

Well, now the speed round's over, I can ask follow up questions.

Cheating.

But.

You were talking about the sacraments and how life can be sacramental.

A lot of people think sacrament as like, these are some of the nice rituals that our church does.

I think it's like similar to just ritual.

Could you maybe expound a little bit on what you mean by sacrament and why you think that life can be sacramental?

I think we first have to talk about the choice of God before we talk about the sacraments and that is that one of the number one rules in the sense of normal aspects of my theology is that God could have done everything, everything without us, but he chooses to do things with us.

And in that sense, I think the attitude of God in the sacraments is to come to us and allow us to participate in his life and to bring his life to the world in physical means along with spiritual realities, rather than pushing us away and saying, I'm God, I have all authority, I have all power, all the glory belongs to me.

He says those things are true, but also you get to participate in that.

So I think that's what makes the sacrament so powerful, is that God's inviting us into doing life with him, to co creating life with him when he didn't have to do that.

That was a choice of radical love on his part.

So when we come to a sacrament, it's just as much about the fact that human beings are conduits of his power as it is them being some kind of ancient ritual.

Yeah, I like that.

So one thing just shift gears a little bit.

You know, we talked to some about your ministry as a priest, but a huge part of your ministry right now also has to do with being a spiritual director and a TikTok influencer.

So I was wondering if you could mind, if you would mind maybe explaining some of what you do as a spiritual director and what you do as a TikTok influencer and what the work you do there.

Part of my philosophy of ministry is this ministry is not so much about bringing God to people, it's about recognizing God in people.

It's arrogant for me to believe that God is not already moving in the lives of the people that Come to me.

So I'm not here to like take God and put it on like a clean slate.

I'm here to say God is moving here, here and here.

And also I can invite them to things that they don't already have.

But my beginning place is discovery and not deposit into their life and in spiritual direction.

Being able to notice by the spirit, but also being a trained spiritual director, I sit with people for an hour and I'm able to notice the move of God in their life and ask questions and help them turn in, turn in to their interior life and tune into God within them so that they might be more sensitive to the movement of God in their life.

Because God is moving in their life.

There's not a human alive that God is not actively moving in and through even the worst of us.

That's beautiful.

Tick tock.

I don't even know.

I didn't know I was a tick tock influencer until you told me.

So I just, I think people deserve an easier spirituality.

I don't think it should be all hard.

And I think if somebody pops on my TikTok and there's a, like a moment of the power of God in their day just because they saw me talk about something or they saw a quote I put on, let it be made known that I'm trying to make the spiritual life easier and not harder for people.

And that's one of the beautiful things that social media has done for spirituality is it's provided like a way for some people to just be able to have like God pop into their day through a short, a short video.

And I think a lot of church leaders don't think that's enough.

But in the busy and chaotic lives that we have, it's important to give people the grace to, maybe they only have 10 or 20 minutes to actively dwell on God's nature and actively meditate on that.

And I'm going to give that to them.

I'm going to give them the easier path.

That's what it means to be a priest.

Making spirituality more accessible to people and not more difficult.

Right.

Everyone's super busy these days.

If you've got eight seconds of Jesus in your day, that's better than zero seconds.

So true.

Exactly true.

You gotta get what you can.

But our podcast is primarily focused on Christian unity.

So other than your relationship with, you know that your congregation has with other Catholic and the Roman Catholic churches, are there any other ecumenical efforts or relationships that your church maintains?

I think we have a lack of luxury in the independent movement.

To be so Catholic that we just kind of bar people.

There's no one in my church who was raised Catholic, and some of them are kind of, like, not really all the way there, but they show up and they receive the sacraments from us, and they receive the teachings.

But I think that independent Catholicism is inherently catholic as well as ecumenical.

So I think that my whole life is ecumenical.

I mean, much of the mainstream Roman Church would reject me, so I tend to hang out with, like, mainstream progressive Protestants.

And I just.

This Catholic door is open to people, and I don't turn people away.

I'm always trying to convert people to an aspect of my faith and not necessarily my whole faith.

So if I can get them praying the rosary or something, I'm happy.

But, you know, I don't live in this.

In a Catholic echo chamber.

Maybe not because I'm so pious and holy, but because I don't really have the luxury of living in this kind of narrow world.

It's just not possible in the independent movement.

And I consider that to be a gift.

All right, so is it, like, device, like, when you meet other Catholics and they find out you're independent, Is that, like, a point of contention for them?

It depends on who it is.

I mean, I've been every.

I've had everything but from being threatened with death to being told that I'm a heretic and blasphemous and an enemy of the mother Church, all the way to people not understanding why I'm not respected as a priest more.

And I just have to kind of.

I kind of have to, like, plow my little narrow part of the field and be in my part of the body of Christ and kind of say, I'm going to minister to the people that God's called me to minister to and kind of say, screw that noise with those people, because my job is to fill myself with the energy for my ministry and not focus on their criticism.

Not that I don't want to, but simply because when Jesus said, go into all the world and make disciples, baptize them in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, I have to prioritize that.

And if I'm responding to critics, I'm doing less discipling of people.

I'm not being a conduit of the sacramental life.

And I would just say if you.

If people can ignore the critics and do the ministry.

Yeah, yeah.

All right, so quick sidebar, because I found this amusing.

Last weekend, I was at a live podcast event, and I met Loser.

Yeah, I met One lady who attended the church that I'm technically a member of, because I do online.

Not technically, I just am a member of this church.

I just.

I'm not physically present that often.

So people go, you're a member of this church.

I've never met you before.

And I'm like, well, it's because I'm an online member.

Anyway, I digress.

Met this lady, told her, she asked about our podcast.

I mentioned, you know, the ecumenical work we did.

And she goes, oh, yeah, I grew up ecumenical, but my husband's always grown up Lutheran.

And I was like, that's really cool.

I felt like the Princess and the bride moment is like, you keep using this word.

I don't think it means what you think it means.

That's all.

What does it mean?

And here's what it means to me.

I believe each denomination has this treasure box that they can bring to the middle.

Ecumenicism is not about common ground because we can find common ground in five minutes.

It's about me looking at people who are not Catholic and saying, what gift do they have that we don't do as well?

What are they doing better?

And I think that's the power of it.

Ecumenicism should be sanctifying to the church and not some kind of side hobby that we're doing.

And that's why I think the work you're doing is important, because it makes the church holier when they're ecumenical.

It's not like some kind of, you know, weekend event for us to kind of pat each other on the back and placate each other.

It's holy work, it's sanctifying work, and people are closer to Jesus because of ecumenicism.

Yeah.

Yeah, I agree.

Thank you for saying that.

I know we've said it before.

We started this podcast because we were like, what's something that's not as contentious?

Because some of the other stuff that I had done in ministry before this, then I was like, ah, I'll just do this kind of light thing, talk about church unity, and turn it into a several year thing.

And realize this is incredibly difficult, actually.

But here we are, doing our best.

Yeah, I'm going to start saying that I grew up ecumenical, and that's really funny.

So, our Father Cass, are there questions that you think our audience might like to hear from you regarding, like, your church, your spiritual director, like, how you make content?

Any of that that you think we missed?

I would just say that I'm available as a spiritual director and a priest to your audience and that they can reach out to me and I'm accessible.

I don't.

I relentless, relentlessly try to connect with people.

Like, if someone friends me on Facebook and there seem to be reasonable a reason to connect with them, I immediately message them and say, I'm glad to be connected.

I probably talk to, like, three new people a week.

And, you know, my spiritual direction practices is open and available at a sliding scale rate for people.

But also, I don't turn anyone away.

So if people don't have the funds to compensate me, that doesn't mean that I tell them to go elsewhere.

So that's what I would say.

I would say that I just want to declare my availability to people.

Yeah.

Yeah, Right.

So what is.

What is.

He's not super far from us, so hopefully three of us can grab a beer sometime soon to talk about connecting.

Be great.

I tend to be sober, but I can grab the beer and, like, pray over it and, like, we can have holy water, holy beer.

I don't know.

I.

I can.

I cheat.

I'm not.

It's not like I'm fully, totally here, but I.

I'm.

I'm the priest at a sober bar, and I just feel a solidarity with my people by being largely sober.

But they've.

They've told me, like, you can be sober for us, but also, like, you don't have to be nice.

I like that.

So spiritual direction, what does that entail exactly?

For those who aren't quite familiar?

You meet with a spiritual director, and the director kind of speaks of their relationship with.

With God.

So if you and I were talking and you said, you know, I'm really struggling with my faith, I would say, potentially, tell me what faith means to.

So it's kind of like getting underneath and underneath and underneath and underneath, all the way down to the root of what we believe and what we're experiencing with God.

That way, we're not just throwing around terms like ecumenical.

We're sitting with what they mean to us and those spiritual realities.

So I would.

We would maybe begin in a little bit of silence.

And then, you know, Joshua might say, you know, I don't go to this church.

And I'm really struggling with the fact that I'm not there present because the people are persecuting me because I don't walk through the door.

And I would say, maybe that sounds like fear.

Is that fear for you?

Do you fear something?

Do you think God's angry with you?

So I'd ask questions.

Not that that's real for Joshua.

But yeah.

Yeah.

I do not get persecuted by my church for the rest.

For anyone listening who wants to know, it was.

It was hypothetical.

Yeah, for now.

For now.

One day I'll be persecuted.

Not yet.

I will persecute you for not going.

So just.

Just so that I have the experience.

I need that, you know.

Yeah.

It needs to be relatable.

So where should people go to follow you and to talk to you online?

They can go to my Facebook, which is Cass C A s space V O.

They can go to Father Costello.net and fill out the information there.

You know, the.

It'll go to my email.

Yeah.

Those are the best ways to contact me.

You can contact me on Tick Tock, which I believe is at Father Costello.

Is that true?

Okay, I'll say.

Can you.

Pretty sure you can send messages on Tick Tock?

Yes.

Lots of things.

There's lots of things you can do on Tick Tock, Joshua.

You just stop neglecting Tick Tock.

Just too old.

People don't know.

I'm actually like 95.

I just look like I'm in my 30s.

Yeah.

I think my grandma has a Tick Tock.

You know, it's funny, a lot of older people do have a Tick Tock.

I do.

I know that for some reason I feel like it just skips that, like the middle generations.

It's like, right.

There's a lot of old white dudes on there.

But I feel like it's like they just.

Younger boomers, older millennials.

We just.

They want to be heard.

We want to be heard.

We have a voice.

Your wife has a Tik Tok.

That's true.

That's how I cheat.

If there's something I really like, am slightly interested in, I just, you know, wait till she sees it and kind of like lean over and look at her phone.

You know, why do I need one?

I could cheat.

Silly.

Timeline cultivation.

I just think that it's incredible that we haven't done an episode about slothfulness.

And I just aired my.

My sin that I.

I am too lazy for Tik Tok.

That's incredible.

Anyway, one thing we like to do as we start wrapping up our.

Our episodes, Father Castella.

We like to just ask our guests if they had to provide a single tangible action that would help engender church unity.

Is there anything practical that you could suggest our listeners stop and go do as soon as they finish listening to this that's going to help better engender church unity?

I would say the first thing you should do is go and spend Five minutes meditating on the fact that the Holy Spirit has made you born for unity and not an enemy of unity.

It's human nature to come together, not to divide and conquer.

So do that and then find someone to talk to that doesn't look at God the same way that you do and let it challenge you.

Sit with their words.

So first sit with the reality of the Holy Spirit.

Because Christian unity, like at Pentecost, which we just had, Christian unity, is not a perfect moment.

It's a miracle.

It's supernatural.

We can't produce it in and of ourselves.

We have to go to the Holy Spirit in us, who is the glue.

The Spirit is the breath that glues the church together.

And this is who we are.

So don't think that you're.

That you're not made for it.

Know that you are, and then go listen to somebody.

And you're an ecumenicist automatically.

Yeah, right.

So what would change in the world around us if everyone listened to you?

We took those five minutes and then we went and talked to the people who see God differently than us.

What.

What changes?

I think the first thing that changes is that most people believe that they're not inherently good, that they're not made for goodness and closeness to neighbor.

I think it changes their perspective of themselves.

And when we change our perspective of ourselves, we automatically change our pers.

Our perspective of God.

And when we change our perspective of God, we automatically change our perspective of ourselves.

So I think they're changing and revolutionary.

I think they're having internal revolutions that I couldn't even imagine.

A lot is going on.

Right.

So before we wrap up, we like to do a little segment that we call our God Moments.

And we just share a moment that we saw God in recently.

Whether it be a blessing, a challenge, or a moment of worship, whatever it is, it's just something that you saw God in your life.

And I always make Joshua go first to give the rest of us plenty of time to think about it.

So, Josh, do you have a God moment for us this week?

Yes.

Last Sunday, I got a Sunday off.

Usually I have Saturdays off after work, Sundays.

And instead of going to my church, I finally get a Sunday off and don't go to my church.

It's crazy.

I went to our good friend Reverend Justin Coleman's church, and it was so great.

I got to see Justin.

And for those who don't know, he's just.

He's going through a lot right now and just able to give him just a big bear hug in the middle of his church.

And he didn't expect me to go to the service either.

And also, Justin's like, possibly the world's greatest hugger.

I've heard that.

I've heard that about him.

But I got to hug Justin.

It was great.

I'm gonna have to take off from my church and like bail out on my own people and get a hug.

Yeah.

From Justin.

Yeah, that's his church's new marketing ploy.

They don't.

They just don't know it yet.

But I got to hug Justin.

Then I saw my best friend spend a large part of the day with him.

And this is really.

This is gonna get really weird.

I got to hug Pastor Will because the podcast event was at his church.

And Trip Fuller, who gave me a big hug.

And then Will's wife, I saw who gave me a big hug.

And I usually, I'm not a toucher.

And it was just one of those things of like seeing these people who mean so much to me and learning to let down my guard enough to appreciate and embrace is just feels really meaningful.

And, you know, I was blessed that I was able to not be as.

I don't know the right word.

Hate hating a physical touch.

As usual that day, I was more okay with it.

And I think I got a lot from that.

So that was cool.

Good.

One time, Josh and I slept in a one person tent together, side by side, without touching each other for the entire night.

Just for context.

Yeah, we never touched somehow.

Okay.

Josh hates touching people.

I started to pray like that.

This podcast about to take a weird turn.

I just wanted everyone to have that context.

Josh hates.

I believe in holiness even though I'm gay.

That's what I was going to start saying.

But for me, my God moment, my little sister.

And this is only really gonna be meaningful for me.

I know most of our audience is older than me, and both of you guys, I think, oh, no, I'm way younger.

But my.

Oh yeah, you're way younger than me.

You're 95.

My little sister just turned 24.

That's crazy to me.

And I guess time just doesn't stop.

So it's been.

It's been kind of weird the past couple of days because my little sister is now 24 and it's gonna get her master's degree.

See, in my mind, my little brother's 10 and your little sister's still like 6 or 7.

Yeah, that's how it works.

That's how it works.

Wild.

Yeah.

So that's been pretty strange to think about the past couple of days.

Also, she went to the beach without me, which is the kindest thing that she could have done.

I can't stand the beach.

I hate it.

I love the beach.

If I could live on the beach.

That did not go the direction I thought it was.

I thought it was going to be like envy and strife and need for confessions, but you're like, that's the best thing she could have done.

No, that's pretty good.

Not be forced to go to the beach is beautiful.

Meanwhile, I am upset she didn't invite me to the beach, though.

So let her know.

Well, I'll tell her I love it.

Do you need spiritual direction for that?

Jealousy, perhaps.

So, Father Cass, do you have a God moment for us?

I do.

Are you ready?

Absolutely.

I was staying in a hotel recently because I took a few days just to sabbatical in a hotel.

And the last day I was there, I got up to go eat breakfast and there was this homeless guy sleeping in the steps.

And I looked at him, I said, bro, are you okay?

Like, you know, I'm, I'm nice because I'm a priest, but the people here might not be as nice to you.

You should probably get up and, and go before somebody like, has you thrown out of here in some drastic measure.

And I said, but can I get you something to eat?

And he said, oh, yeah, that'd be great.

So I went and I got these little like, Debbie cakes, the cream pie things.

Love that.

And I had this.

I had this self righteous moment of like, I'm gonna go and turn the corner and like down to him, because I have food, he doesn't.

I'm gonna do him a favor.

And as I was walking back to the stairs, the Holy Spirit said to me, don't you throw that at him, bend down and hand it to him as if he is a man like you are.

So I got to be brought down by the conviction of the Holy Spirit to say, just because you have charity in your heart and you wanted to do something nice, doesn't mean that you can use my love to undignify a person in the name of dignity.

So I bent down and I handed it to him.

And it felt like almost like handing Jesus a little oatmeal cream pie and realizing Jesus's humanity was in his humanity and that this was a person born in the image of God and that the real weak person in the moment was me and not him.

That is my favorite part about my job.

Unless my boss or her boss or his boss or his boss is listening.

I could feed all the homeless people I want.

They're brave enough to come inside.

They're getting something to eat.

But that is a beautiful moment.

I love that.

And if you're listening and you enjoyed the episode, please consider sharing with a friend.

Share with an enemy.

Share it with your cousins.

If you don't have cousins, I'll send you the info for my cousins.

Send it to them.

Don't ask for the info to his cousins.

That's an entire book.

200 page.

Just contact.

I have a lot bigger than the cousins.

And, you know, check out the merch on the store.

It's an easy way to support us.

Low effort.

You don't have to wear it.

I mean, it is comfy and it is good though.

Josh is wearing it currently.

I'm gonna get one of those.

But also order one size up.

It's my advice.

Order one size up.

They're wear small.

If I want to, I will.

Yeah, I'll do what I want.

Yeah, that's fair.

We can't tell him what to do.

Yeah.

I don't believe in predestination.

This isn't the.

Yeah, I'm not Calvinist, but if a Calvinist wants to be on the show, let us know.

Don't go there, bro.

But yeah, also, if you want to check out some of the other shows on our podcast, I don't think any of them are Calvinist.

The closest you can get is Christian.

Ashley, if you want to listen to let nothing move you.

He's more conservative.

Still not Calvinist, but he'll tell you about the Bible from a conservative viewpoint.

If you want a more progressive viewpoint of the Bible, the Bible after hours is an option on the network.

Also Systematic ecology.

TJ and I are both part of that talking about geek stuff, so it's always fun.

Mm.

We hope you enjoyed it next week.

Thank you.

Thank you for your time today, Father Cass, and we hope you enjoyed the show.

Next week, we'll be talking with Dr.

Leah Robinson, Pastor Will Rose, and Ryan does to discuss the similarities between sci fi stories, apocalypse stories, and eschatology in the church.

Then we're going to be interviewing Beth Allison Barr about her most recent book, becoming the pastor's Wife, how marriage replaced ordination as a woman's path to ministry, and how the idea of unity has been used to silence many female voices from speaking up.

After that, we'll be speaking with Jonathan Man.

Macny, I believe, is how it's pronounced on Anglican.

An Anglican autism researcher about his work with faith and those on the spectrum.

Finally, at the end of season one, Francis Chan will be on the show.

Yeah, he just doesn't know.

So someone does have to deal.

Season one is an infinite amount of time away.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Frank's Chan passes before the end of season one.

We're just gonna expect his ghost to come on eventually.

I just gotta say, I hope everybody listens to the Beth Allison Barr one.

She's one of my favorite people.

Yeah, she's got really good.