Welcome back friends to our podcast, your World of Creativity, and we're the podcast where we dive into inspiration and insight behind some of the world's most creative minds. And today we're gonna talk about mental wellness. Creative connections and a new way to approach your communications.

Perhaps. Our guest is a licensed professional counselor, a licensed chemical dependency counselor. She has decades of experience. Welcome in, Jill Robin Payne. Jill, welcome to the show.

Oh, mark, thanks for having me.

Jill is a true trailblazer. She started as her college, first intern at the National Institutes of Health. She later continued her journey through the VA hospital in Houston, and has authored a great book and trademarked a whole concept called Bempathy, which I know we're gonna get into is a blend of banter and empathy.

I think it's great when we coin these words. Yeah. Jill, let's start at the very beginning. What led you to [00:01:00] pursue mental health, and especially from the creative point of view? as your life's work?

So I'm gonna say it started when I was very young because my dad, who was an ophthalmologist and my mom who helped all these different types of people, she was a head of the Cerebral palsy center and and just was all over helping people way back when.

So they were good role models and then of course, genetics. So I've always been where I love relationships. That's just my thing. I love people. I really do. I love people. And you know what? It comes across that I love people. So there's some people that may drive you crazy. I still love humans and appreciate them.

So that's probably where it started. I volunteered in high school. I at. At nursing homes and college, I was a volunteer at the hospital. I went with my dad to visit his clients or his patient, should I say. And that's way back when. This is really [00:02:00] telling my age when they did cataract surgery, mark and they had to put bags on the sides of your head so you wouldn't move because there was no eye intraocular lens.

Yes. So that's how far back. And so then I just started to wanna help people in my undergrad is recreational therapy. I wanted to teach people how to play 'cause we don't do that enough,

We need it.

Yeah, we do. We really do. And and then I decided later on. When I was having problems in my marriage that my first marriage I'm married for the second time that I'd get a psychology degree and I would help people have happier marriages.

So that's how it all started and I. I'm here. I've been communicating since I was born. I probably popped out and said, Hey, mom and dad.

Let's talk about it.

Really. There you go.

It's terrific. Certainly this understanding and study of human behavior Yes. Led you to create now this innovative concept [00:03:00] called  Bempathy.

Yes. What is it, and how was the idea created for you?

So the idea was created, I was even on a PBS station about 10 years ago with my own little segment for six months called Meeting People. It's not a Game, which is my first book. And that was because we were meeting people more online. Or it was the beginning of where we were talking and the talking was becoming texting.

I would have my clients come in, mark and they'd say, oh yes, I talked to my. Partner. I talked to my boyfriend or girlfriend and I said, did you talk or text? And I go text. And so this has been going on for years and they've been studying it. So it's not just social media, what's changing our brains and changing our outlook and our behavior.

It's screen time. So I don't know if you remember way back when we got colored tv, my parents would say only one hour. And they had it, right? We need to [00:04:00] limit our screen time, we need to have less of it in schools because this is changing and they're doing studies now changing the frontal lobe of our brain where we do critical thinking.

We even have emotional IQ there. I. And so many different things. And so we don't even know all that it's doing. It is causing a lot of stress. The cortical steroid or the cortical hormone, excuse me, is on the rise when you're doing a lot of screen time, I. And that's how come people get a little bit anxious when they're, always on screen time or watching too much tv.

So this, so how does this combination then of banter and empathy how does it really play out, in real world day to day interactions?

We're doing it right now, yes. And it's banter with empathy. And so basically we are doing too much now. So it's a good combination because.

We're looking for balance in our life. We need to work with technology because technology is always gonna exist. It's [00:05:00] just, it's not just digital, it's just constantly advancing. That's what humans like to do. We like to better ourselves, and so we need to have this balance with the empathy and the banter.

And so they are doing even studies now where banter, which is. Chitchat with a little humor is getting our brains to synchronize. There's neuroscientists that are now just in the, about a month ago there was an article in the Wall Street Journal where this neuroscientist was just basically validating that bantering is a great thing and we need to start doing it more.

The problem is a lot of the kids don't know how much to do, so we have. We're too fast now and too much, and so we need to slow it down. And in my meeting people book, which is my first book I did, I even tell people, I say, you know what? Pretend there's a throttle on your leg, just like in a car, and you pull it back.

Just to slow down the process. So we're not just need, we don't just need to banter. [00:06:00] We need to also slow it down. And in  Bempathy, the first step is really empathizing. And I'm not talking empathizing emotionally. I'm talking cognitively.

Because if we emotionally. Empathize all the time. I don't know about you, but during Covid, oh my gosh.

I was just like a milk card too much. Yes. So we can't really do that. So when we're talking about  Bempathy, we're talking about cognitively empathizing, really understanding where that person's coming from. And then the next step is then you banter. We don't wanna just say right when we first started talking, right?

I talked about you, I talked about your dog. I wanted to find out more about you. That's really creating what is next, which is the third step, which is always focusing on a win-win.

We can't always win. If you focus on a win-win, you're going to have more of a chance of winning both parties than losing.

'cause you're focusing on. Winning. Sure. You don't go in the, what is it? The Indianapolis [00:07:00] 500. I'm gonna lose. You go in it saying I'm gonna win. The same with conversations and  Bempathy. You go in with the winning thought process and it's not all about me, even though I'd love it to be Yeah.

It's about us and we.

For sure.

So it's a team

and I speaking of teams, as I think about the listeners and their creative processes Yes. And the creative development of so many projects, in teams, it has to do with resolving conflict sometimes, all the way to improving collaboration.

Where can this concept help us in these kind of everyday creative interactions?

I'm so glad you asked because you're very much into business and I think life is a business. It's a career. And if we don't get ROI on a conversation, and that is, you probably can tell your audience is yes, return on investments, right?

So if I don't feel I'm getting anything out of a conversation, then I, it's gonna dwindle. I'm not gonna wanna participate. And [00:08:00] so I keep saying we need to make things fun. Life is hard. There's no reason why we can't make conversation fun. That's what banter's about. What happened to humor? What happened to humor.

We're afraid to say certain things and I don't mean making fun of other people. I mean making fun of things and being lighthearted. 'cause no one is perfect. And I think we need to step back, and this is part of  Bempathy. There's the  Bempathy triangle where you have a situation mark and then you step back either emotionally.

Physically or both so that you can see the big picture. And so  Bempathy is really not it's a, I think it's a movement. It's more of, it's a concept. It's a new way of talking in this fast paced digital life, so that every situation's different. Have you ever met one person that's the same?

Exactly.

I've never met all my clients are different. If I just did I [00:09:00] don't know. I can't even think of just a CBT on everybody. They might not, that might not work for them. And if I did do cognitive behavioral therapy, which is CBT, I would give various ways to do it because I need to speak your language and everyone has a different language.

Yes. And we need to sit back and like I said, empathize, put yourself in that person's PO position cognitively, that means up here in your brain. And and see how you can make that situation a win-win. And it's not manipulation. I talked to me. Oh, that's manipulation. Is it manipulation to want both parties to be happy right?

To actually connect with someone? Exactly. Is that manipulation? I don't know. It's something to think about

and you think about connecting with someone, even in a short period of time. But people we work with, people in our relationships, we, we never know where they are at that moment, but exactly.

Certainly the mental wellness part. In the creative process, we [00:10:00] face a lot of rejection. We face a lot of obstacles, and sometimes that goes deep. The fear of rejection or the Yes. Past traumas that we're bringing into the room. Yes. Where does this mental wellness come in?

And maybe there's a little empathy needed for a healing process. Exactly. Exactly. Or you can move on.

And so even in my books I talk about, there's something called the Map of reflection. I really, I love it. I created it during covid. It's not like Maslow's hierarchy of needs. I think it's as good.

So there, there goes my ego and we are the center of our world. So our world is us. If I am not content, no one in my world is going to be content around me and action creates reaction, which is Newton's law. I didn't create it. So we are the first we need to think about ourselves.

Matter of fact, can I tell you a quick story?

Sure.

You I tell this quite [00:11:00] often 'cause I think it's funny. I was sitting, this was a couple of months ago, I was sitting with my husband and we're watching tv. I. And us wives we're picking at y'all. And so I looked at my husband and I said, Byron, all you do is sit there, watch TV and stuff, your dag on face.

I probably used other words besides that. And you know what, he has the, he had the audacity to say, mark. He looked at me and he said, Jill, you're doing the same thing, right? Yes. So a lot of times we look at other people, and in  Bempathy it's banter with empathy, and we need to do that on ourselves first.

Because it's timing and position. If I'm not in the right space or position, then it's probably not the right time for me to have a really intricate conversation. And if I'm at work and I need to talk to my boss, take a moment. If you need to do that meeting that day, take a moment. It's no reason why you can't take five minutes before the meeting.

Everyone needs to go to the bathroom. Every now and [00:12:00] then, I tell people, just say, I need to excuse myself for a second. I'll be right back.

Just take a break.

Take a break. Take a break. Take a break. Exactly. Get a different perspective.

Throughout your career and work with so many clients, you, I'm sure you've taught behavior modification.

I know you've written some I've taught it, yeah. Rehabilitative guides and so forth. But thinking about habits. And how we continue to maybe repeat the same patterns, exactly the same conversations. So many of us say, boy, I've seen this movie, I've lived this experience before. Why do we keep repeating that?

But what helps us to maybe reframe some of those old habits.

First we need to realize we're doing it because a lot of times, just like I said, I looked at my husband and it was all his issue, not mine. Yes. And and we need to be able to receive it and understand that no one's perfect.

And then to me, I like to tell people to replace it with something that is. Positive, [00:13:00] something that adds to your life. If the habit is taking away, I have in my books, negative and positive instead of good and bad. Because what is good and what is bad? I, yeah, I really don't know. I know what will take away from my life.

So if smoking a cigarette is taking away. Then I'm going to look to replace it with something. And so we need to think about smoking. What do I get from of it? What do I get from it? What does it do for me? What am I doing? It is an oral fixation. I'm moving my hand. What else could I do to replace that?

That's how come I really talk about. Recreation and leisure activity instead of exercise. We need more movement in our life, so replace that with something that's a movement, something that's physical. I really do think that's a big thing. And then if that is difficult for you, then it's time to ask for help, and there's nothing wrong with that.

When I'm lost, I ask for help, even if my phone's not working,

yes,

I stop my car and I ask [00:14:00] for help.

Exactly. Sometimes these habits go a totally different direction and that I wanted to ask about your work in chemical dependency counseling. Many creatives often struggle with substance abuse, but I also wonder how creativity can contribute aid in the recovery process.

How can these things intersect for good?

So you're saying that do something creative.

Yes. In other words, how can the creative, really tapping into one's creativity, right? Help them in their substance abuse recovery,

right? So again, if you're using my  Bempathy, you're gonna want them to connect with something.

To me, when I talk to people, I don't believe in affirmations. I believe in saying something that you believe, so that I look and I talk with you, and if you say, I had someone say the other day to me more, I don't like people then I said to 'em, I said, you just said you were talking to your mom and that you love her [00:15:00] and you're talking to me and I think you like me, so therefore you like some people.

And then they said yeah. So then you change it to I Then you focus on, I like some people, I. Instead of saying, I don't like people, that in itself is gonna change your attitude. And if you have an addiction of some sort, I can't I just can't do anything with this. I've tried everything. Then we have you tried everything?

What have you tried? What is working? How, how often during the day are you sober? What do you do when you're sober? Focus on the positive. So I tell people. If you have a glass of. White milk, that sort of blah, and you wanna make it chocolate. You can leave the white milk in that container of that glass, and then you take a carton.

And with dynamics and physics, you pour the chocolate milk into that cup of white milk and that it will turn to [00:16:00] chocolate milk because the white is going to spill out and overflow. You will have a residue of that white milk. It'll turn mostly chocolate. That's what I tell people. Fill your day with positive things and the negative things are going to fall out.

We only have 24 hours in a day.

Exactly.

So these are different things and I really can't, I can't stress this enough. Life is not done alone. Even you have a dog, people that are by themselves. They have an animal. So it's, we're not an island and we need to remember that when we are in an issue.

And so it's okay. We need to find people that can help us with this issue and focus on the positive. I say, focus on what you want. Not what you don't want. I want my husband to I don't wanna say I want my husband to stop nagging me, or I want my husband to not put up the toilet seat. I just say I want him to put the toilet seat down.

We [00:17:00] need to say what we want more.

So good.

Very

go. I can tell Jill, from your, not only written work, but your interviews and I've watched a lot of your videos on social media. Oh, thank you. Thank you. It all seems to come from a very, personal, heartfelt. Caring. I noticed your philosophy spreading the goodness.

It really guides a lot of what you do. How can we take away this idea of, not just, I don't like people, that's something I find that many of us say sometimes when we're just a little overwhelmed. But where do we come from? A more caring and connecting, and as  Bempathy might imply an empathetic place.

Right? And again, I say we need to sit with us. We need to think about us. And when I say that, I don't mean egotistical or I don't mean be a narcissist. Think of us as an example of all the humans in the world. We, not all of us feel pain. By the way, mark, most of us [00:18:00] feel pain. There's a very small percentage that don't and they die young because what does pain tell us?

It's a signal. It tells me to move. If I'm in a chair and I'm uncomfortable, I'm gonna move. I'm going to maybe change positions or I'm gonna get up and pick a new one. And so pain is very important and we need to listen to ourselves and think about what do humans really want? And we all wanna be heard, we all wanna be appreciated.

And you know what? I don't have to like my boss to appreciate his work. Good

point. I don't

have to Exactly. I don't have to like people to get along with them to get a project done. We need to start focusing on what we want. If I focus on, I don't like my boss, I'm not gonna get my project done. If I focus on gosh, he's very smart.

He really does have a great idea. Here. Here, let me, let's maybe work together on that idea. So this is what I'm saying with my  Bempathy. It's a bigger picture [00:19:00] than just communication. We gotta be able to communicate with ourselves. I have something in my book called Conversing with Self and third person, and to do it out loud, I tell clients to do it in their phone and listen to yourself, and you'll come up with ideas.

Believe me, you'll come up and if you don't, again, ask somebody

Yes.

I've left talking to you about your concepts and your approach. Also, on this creativity podcast, we also talk about how to get the work out. So I'd love to hear about your own creative process to author the books produce the books, publish Right.

Market the books. What has been your journey as an author?

Oh my gosh. Okay, so you really wanna know my whole book I've learned. Matter of fact, I told my husband if he wants to do a book. To get someone to publish it. I thought, lemme tell you what my mindset was, being a controlling individual.

I thought, you know what, when I first wrote my meeting people book, I said, I want to [00:20:00] publish this myself because I want to have my own, title, my own cover. And I heard all these things. When publishers get you, they change things. And I am so out there that I didn't want to be changed. Matter of fact, I have a saying in my office, I have a beautiful 1968 CAMA that my son used to have.

And I tell everyone you are that 1968 Camaro, that beautiful classic. You wouldn't wanna make it anything different, a Mercedes or anything. 'cause it wouldn't be that classic. You may wanna tune it up. Polish it and realign it. And that's how I feel about people. So I made the mistake of not going to a publisher and when you start publishing yourself your first book, then publishers will not look at you after that.

So I tell people, if you do want to do, if you're gonna write a book, I really would send it to publishers. Because then they help you out. They may take a percentage find a publisher that is your culture, that really [00:21:00] thinks like you and and will keep the concept that you have. And so I think that was a big I'm gonna say that was I don't like to say really a mistake.

It was an avenue that I think if I did it again, I would choose differently.

How did you like that? I didn't. So helpful. Say a mistake. That's right. I said it. There you go. Yeah. And that's part of  Bempathy. Think of different words to use and it makes us feel better. And yeah, no one's perfect.

Yeah. And I think we learn from people.

Good insight. Thanks for sharing that experience. Oh, you're welcome. Jill, what a joy talking with you today. I wanna be sure that listeners know how to connect with you and find your work. Where can we find you?

Okay I have a website that is my name, Jill robin pain.com.

And then I also am on Amazon and my meeting people book is also on all the audios and I'm on all the platforms. It's at Jill Robin Pay, so I am not a Payne, P-A-I-N-I-N-P-A-Y-N-E. And Jill, like Jack and Jill, Robin, [00:22:00] like the bird pane, like a window pane. So there you go. And,

Listeners, I'll put all those links in the show notes so it's easy to click and follow you.

Jill Robin Payne has been my guest. Jill, what a pleasure. Thanks for sharing this concept of  Bempathy. Yeah. This holistic approach to communication. I think it's given us a lot to think about and reflect on and really apply to our day-to-day life. I appreciate it a lot. Thank you so much. And listeners, I also wanna thank our sponsor, Whitecloud Coffee Roasters.

They supported this episode. Don't forget, you can enjoy a 10% discount off your order when you use the code Creativity at checkout. So visit whitecloud coffee.com and explore all their amazing coffees. And if you enjoyed today's episode, be sure to subscribe, rate and review the podcast on your favorite app.

Join us again next time. We're gonna continue our round the world journeys to talk to creatives everywhere about how they get inspired, how they organize ideas, and most of all, how we gain the [00:23:00] confidence and the connections to get our work out into the world. Until next time, I'm Mark Stinson, and we'll keep unlocking your world of creativity.