1 00:00:00,050 --> 00:00:02,745 Ben: Do we not like the fan noise in the background? 2 00:00:02,926 --> 00:00:04,906 Carlos: Is that your laptop still just about to take off? 3 00:00:05,866 --> 00:00:08,476 Ben: It's been desperate, been trying to take off for years. 4 00:00:08,686 --> 00:00:10,576 Uh, but it can't seem to get off the stand. 5 00:00:15,568 --> 00:00:20,218 Carlos: So we are going to be talking about, uh, through the lens 6 00:00:20,218 --> 00:00:25,498 of Elon Musk's eyes, the scary, scary eyes of Elon Musk, we're 7 00:00:25,498 --> 00:00:26,758 gonna talk a bit about pricing. 8 00:00:27,088 --> 00:00:32,018 And we are gonna be, uh, sort of commenting on a blog post by a 9 00:00:32,018 --> 00:00:37,598 guy called Mark Ritson who I don't really know, but I, his, his blog 10 00:00:37,598 --> 00:00:41,948 post was shared by another guy called Tim, who is based in Bryan. 11 00:00:41,948 --> 00:00:45,578 And, um, it was curious, he was like, basically the title 12 00:00:45,578 --> 00:00:48,398 of the blog post is Five. 13 00:00:49,958 --> 00:00:50,798 What is the title of that? 14 00:00:51,008 --> 00:00:57,908 Five Lessons on Five Lessons On How Not To Do Pricing From Elon Musk's Twitter. 15 00:00:57,998 --> 00:00:58,088 Ben: Mm-Hmm. 16 00:00:58,358 --> 00:00:59,558 Carlos: So essentially. 17 00:01:00,293 --> 00:01:04,163 For those of you who have been living in a cave for the past month, 18 00:01:04,703 --> 00:01:07,703 there's a guy called, or maybe the past year or decade, there's a guy 19 00:01:07,703 --> 00:01:11,453 called Elon Musk, who I've been watching a documentary on the BBC 20 00:01:11,483 --> 00:01:13,373 iPlayer called the Elon Musk Show. 21 00:01:13,913 --> 00:01:17,423 Fascinating story, fascinating story about his experience, 22 00:01:17,503 --> 00:01:21,313 not only in building Tesla and SpaceX, uh, but also just. 23 00:01:22,273 --> 00:01:24,643 Um, well, they don't really talk about PayPal much. 24 00:01:24,823 --> 00:01:25,783 That's the interesting thing. 25 00:01:25,783 --> 00:01:26,124 Ben: Couldn't fit it in. 26 00:01:26,124 --> 00:01:26,803 Too short a program. 27 00:01:26,896 --> 00:01:30,076 Carlos: I don't think many people know that he was actually part of PayPal. 28 00:01:30,166 --> 00:01:30,286 Ben: Yeah. 29 00:01:30,286 --> 00:01:31,006 Carlos: Which is fascinating. 30 00:01:31,126 --> 00:01:32,866 But they talk about the company before PayPal. 31 00:01:32,986 --> 00:01:33,346 Ben: Yeah. 32 00:01:33,351 --> 00:01:35,206 Carlos: And they talk about him getting pushed outta PayPal. 33 00:01:35,266 --> 00:01:35,596 Ben: Yeah. 34 00:01:35,866 --> 00:01:37,726 Carlos: But also they talk about his childhood. 35 00:01:37,966 --> 00:01:38,236 Ben: Yeah. 36 00:01:38,236 --> 00:01:39,016 Carlos: And his parents. 37 00:01:39,046 --> 00:01:41,236 And that is super fascinating. 38 00:01:41,446 --> 00:01:45,616 Anyway, they come up to the idea of buying Twitter, uh, and the. 39 00:01:46,246 --> 00:01:53,026 Basically hims, his the power, he has a being having several hundred, I think 40 00:01:53,026 --> 00:01:56,296 he's the second most swallowed person on Twitter, over a hundred million 41 00:01:56,296 --> 00:01:58,696 followers in influencing markets. 42 00:01:58,696 --> 00:01:59,716 Ben: And he's an influencer. 43 00:02:00,016 --> 00:02:03,316 Carlos: He is a massive, big influencer. 44 00:02:03,406 --> 00:02:03,736 Ben: Yeah. 45 00:02:04,306 --> 00:02:08,716 Carlos: Now he's trying to influence the business model of Twitter and 46 00:02:08,716 --> 00:02:13,426 trying to, as I understand it, get it into profitability, which means. 47 00:02:13,921 --> 00:02:14,761 Dealing with pricing. 48 00:02:15,331 --> 00:02:23,191 And so, um, on this blog post, uh, there were these five things not to do 49 00:02:23,196 --> 00:02:23,641 Ben: Mm-Hmm. 50 00:02:23,881 --> 00:02:24,391 Carlos: With pricing. 51 00:02:24,391 --> 00:02:29,671 And I'm gonna, and, and broadly, and then to my view on it was there's 52 00:02:29,676 --> 00:02:31,471 like kind of three aspects to it. 53 00:02:31,531 --> 00:02:35,551 There's something around clarity, something around confidence, and 54 00:02:35,551 --> 00:02:37,291 something about communication. 55 00:02:37,741 --> 00:02:40,411 So, yeah, there, there's something about how clear are the prices that 56 00:02:40,411 --> 00:02:45,271 we present, um, how confident are we when we present them, and how 57 00:02:45,271 --> 00:02:49,081 do we communicate them in a way that that makes sense, you know, 58 00:02:49,081 --> 00:02:50,461 the, you clearly understand it? 59 00:02:50,761 --> 00:02:51,481 So the five lessons. 60 00:02:51,481 --> 00:02:55,021 Firstly, ignore research, go straight to tactics. 61 00:02:55,201 --> 00:02:56,521 That's one lesson not to do. 62 00:02:57,091 --> 00:02:58,411 Number two, thing not to do. 63 00:02:58,591 --> 00:03:01,351 Ignore strategy and go straight to tactics. 64 00:03:01,861 --> 00:03:05,851 Number three, create uncertainty around the price change. 65 00:03:06,211 --> 00:03:06,991 Wobble a bit. 66 00:03:07,591 --> 00:03:10,021 Number four, don't worry about framing. 67 00:03:10,111 --> 00:03:11,281 Just set a price. 68 00:03:11,731 --> 00:03:15,961 Number five, value is all about the company, not the customer. 69 00:03:16,381 --> 00:03:16,651 Okay. 70 00:03:16,651 --> 00:03:18,901 So those are the five things 71 00:03:18,961 --> 00:03:19,446 Ben: Not to do. 72 00:03:19,451 --> 00:03:20,881 Carlos: To give you not to do. 73 00:03:20,971 --> 00:03:21,631 Not to do. 74 00:03:22,171 --> 00:03:25,171 So I thought we'd just like skip through each one and 75 00:03:25,171 --> 00:03:26,671 just give our own commentary. 76 00:03:26,671 --> 00:03:28,111 I'll kind of share a little bit. 77 00:03:28,411 --> 00:03:32,341 I maybe intro a bit with what Mark was talking about on his blog post. 78 00:03:32,911 --> 00:03:33,841 And then maybe you can. 79 00:03:34,321 --> 00:03:38,521 Chime in with any thoughts, uh, uh, and your own perspective. 80 00:03:38,611 --> 00:03:38,761 Ben: Mm-Hmm. 81 00:03:39,121 --> 00:03:41,401 Carlos: So, the first thing, and maybe from the perspective of happy 82 00:03:41,401 --> 00:03:44,328 pricing, Number one, ignore research. 83 00:03:44,748 --> 00:03:46,368 Go straight to tactics. 84 00:03:46,728 --> 00:03:52,878 So, um, what he was saying was basically pricing from the gut. 85 00:03:53,538 --> 00:03:55,158 Just like, ah, this is a price. 86 00:03:55,158 --> 00:03:59,268 And just not even thinking about, uh, asking or talking to anyone. 87 00:03:59,448 --> 00:04:03,633 So that's his thing is like, that's what he perceived Elon Musk doing 88 00:04:03,783 --> 00:04:05,493 with some of his pricing particularly. 89 00:04:05,493 --> 00:04:08,193 And so we're now, just to be clear, uh, for those of you who aren't 90 00:04:08,193 --> 00:04:10,353 familiar with Twitter, and I'm not particularly familiar with Twitter, 91 00:04:10,593 --> 00:04:14,013 there is a blue tick, which is actually a white circle with a white, a blue 92 00:04:14,013 --> 00:04:15,333 circle with a white tick, apparently. 93 00:04:15,843 --> 00:04:18,243 Uh, that is a verified user status. 94 00:04:18,513 --> 00:04:22,953 So that's to let you know that this person is really who they are, and they, 95 00:04:23,133 --> 00:04:25,023 they were wanting to charge $20 for it. 96 00:04:25,738 --> 00:04:29,148 Again said out of the blue, and there's other aspects that, 97 00:04:29,148 --> 00:04:30,078 the things they wanna charge. 98 00:04:30,438 --> 00:04:34,731 So anyway, first thing, giving a price without any research. 99 00:04:34,956 --> 00:04:37,536 Ben: So, yeah, so the context, you said he buys the company 100 00:04:37,536 --> 00:04:38,556 for a huge amount of money. 101 00:04:38,826 --> 00:04:41,736 It clearly doesn't make any money, lots of people, whatever, kind of 102 00:04:41,736 --> 00:04:43,326 contentious for range of things. 103 00:04:43,476 --> 00:04:45,246 He is then looking at ways of making money. 104 00:04:45,426 --> 00:04:50,016 Says you should charge for the blue tick, the verified thing says, oh, $20. 105 00:04:50,016 --> 00:04:53,526 But then in conversation, when he gets some kind of pushback 106 00:04:53,586 --> 00:04:56,726 on Twitter, basically saying, you know, you can sling it. 107 00:04:56,726 --> 00:04:57,656 I'm not gonna do that. 108 00:04:57,806 --> 00:04:59,426 He says, okay, what about eight? 109 00:05:00,656 --> 00:05:06,086 Um, so the, I think like the five points, one of the, one of the things 110 00:05:06,506 --> 00:05:10,136 more than I had sort of like specific thoughts about the individual points, 111 00:05:10,141 --> 00:05:13,196 it kind of felt to me, and in the same way your, your alliteration 112 00:05:13,196 --> 00:05:16,436 sort of spoke to it, it felt to me that the, the kind of the general. 113 00:05:16,786 --> 00:05:20,416 Idea that the article was talking about, which is right, is that essentially 114 00:05:20,416 --> 00:05:25,696 he, Elon Musk did what everybody shouldn't do, which is he basically 115 00:05:26,206 --> 00:05:29,686 didn't really think about it, didn't think it through, didn't look at it via 116 00:05:29,686 --> 00:05:32,266 the lens of the person who was buying. 117 00:05:32,506 --> 00:05:36,226 Didn't, you know, sort of No, no, no plan, no strategy, no 118 00:05:36,226 --> 00:05:38,806 thinking, no consideration, no care. 119 00:05:39,016 --> 00:05:43,416 Just wades in and from the gut kind of vomits a figure into the air, 120 00:05:43,596 --> 00:05:47,136 which of course, given that he is the most kind of followed person 121 00:05:47,136 --> 00:05:48,336 onto Twitter or whatever it is. 122 00:05:48,486 --> 00:05:52,116 And also kind of, you know, the man of the moment, everybody kind 123 00:05:52,116 --> 00:05:55,686 of looks at, vomits a figure into the air, which is kind of quickly 124 00:05:55,686 --> 00:05:57,186 sort of swatted back at him. 125 00:05:57,336 --> 00:05:59,436 I mean, even in a sense, I don't even know how roundly 126 00:05:59,441 --> 00:06:00,306 it was, swatted back him. 127 00:06:00,486 --> 00:06:03,966 A few people, clearly people he paid attention to swatted it back 128 00:06:03,966 --> 00:06:05,376 at him and he just responded. 129 00:06:05,376 --> 00:06:08,466 So it just kind of talks to all of this kind of acting from the gut. 130 00:06:08,916 --> 00:06:10,206 Not thinking about it. 131 00:06:10,206 --> 00:06:12,606 And you know, the problem of acting from the gut, like we sort of talk 132 00:06:12,606 --> 00:06:15,906 about on all the others is that's just loaded with our own sort of 133 00:06:16,146 --> 00:06:19,896 kind of emotional kind of flavor and judgment about it and then kind of 134 00:06:19,896 --> 00:06:21,966 reacting to what comes back at you. 135 00:06:22,236 --> 00:06:24,996 But this whole sort of thing, you know, not thinking, you know, not, 136 00:06:25,056 --> 00:06:27,666 not thinking about it outside in, which is like one of the ways we 137 00:06:27,666 --> 00:06:30,756 talk about it on, on the course that you are kind of pricing a little bit 138 00:06:30,756 --> 00:06:34,721 outside in, you are starting more from the, from the lens, from the 139 00:06:34,726 --> 00:06:36,461 perspective of the person who is buying. 140 00:06:36,641 --> 00:06:40,151 It's not just about you vomiting a figure into the air, because almost 141 00:06:40,151 --> 00:06:42,791 certainly the figure that you are vomiting into the air when you are 142 00:06:42,791 --> 00:06:46,811 pricing your own thing is one which is kind of clouded by your own 143 00:06:46,811 --> 00:06:50,591 stories, your own anxieties, your own worries, your own judgments, 144 00:06:50,591 --> 00:06:53,351 good or bad about what it is that you might, you might be doing. 145 00:06:53,561 --> 00:06:57,881 So the kind of the danger of doing what he did or kind of going inside out is 146 00:06:58,031 --> 00:06:59,861 there is no reason to what you're doing. 147 00:06:59,861 --> 00:07:03,406 There is no, you know, it is, it's not a, a qualified thing. 148 00:07:03,436 --> 00:07:07,576 There is no ne, you know, you have no idea whether the value of what you are 149 00:07:07,576 --> 00:07:09,286 talking about is kind of right or wrong. 150 00:07:09,496 --> 00:07:13,636 Now, for sure, someone like him, I would guess the $20 thing came about 151 00:07:13,636 --> 00:07:17,446 because you know, he has undoubtedly given that he just bought a company 152 00:07:17,446 --> 00:07:21,106 for $44 billion, an army of people who were really good with spreadsheets. 153 00:07:21,266 --> 00:07:23,846 I mean, that's what you would hope and expect if you're doing that. 154 00:07:23,846 --> 00:07:27,740 And so the army of people who are really good with spreadsheets, no 155 00:07:27,740 --> 00:07:30,800 doubt, look at the organization, you know, from all the stuff they could 156 00:07:30,800 --> 00:07:35,100 see and think, well actually, if we could get 20% of the people who have 157 00:07:35,100 --> 00:07:39,240 a blue tick to pay $20 a month, all of a sudden we'd make all of this money. 158 00:07:39,480 --> 00:07:42,360 To which he then probably just regurgitates that into the world 159 00:07:42,600 --> 00:07:43,800 going, okay, well there you go. 160 00:07:43,800 --> 00:07:44,550 So $20. 161 00:07:44,550 --> 00:07:48,300 But yeah, it just talks the idea of acting impulsively, acting from the 162 00:07:48,300 --> 00:07:53,010 gut, acting inside out, and not thinking about or caring about what the person on 163 00:07:53,010 --> 00:07:57,060 the other side of the table is thinking, doing or wanting, and that that 164 00:07:57,060 --> 00:08:01,895 essentially is setting yourself up for a kind of period of uncertainty and or 165 00:08:01,895 --> 00:08:04,505 anxiety and maybe a suboptimal outcome. 166 00:08:05,052 --> 00:08:08,142 Carlos: So there's another aspect, another point or another lesson around, 167 00:08:08,532 --> 00:08:14,707 um, uh, that Mark shared was value is all about the company, not the customer. 168 00:08:15,037 --> 00:08:15,367 Ben: Mm. 169 00:08:15,757 --> 00:08:17,527 Carlos: And I'm linking that to what you were saying. 170 00:08:17,527 --> 00:08:22,177 'cause there's a, sometimes I, I feel, and we've been guilty of it, about this 171 00:08:22,447 --> 00:08:24,637 having a defensive stance about prices. 172 00:08:25,117 --> 00:08:28,807 So it's like, oh, I'm charging this much 'cause we need to make some money. 173 00:08:29,347 --> 00:08:31,927 You know, it costs us this much and this much and this much and this 174 00:08:31,927 --> 00:08:33,847 much to actually make a profit. 175 00:08:33,847 --> 00:08:38,947 So, you know, you should pay us because we need to put food on the table. 176 00:08:39,457 --> 00:08:42,067 Now on one hand, yeah, that's fair enough. 177 00:08:42,487 --> 00:08:44,677 On the other hand, it's like, well, why should I care? 178 00:08:45,037 --> 00:08:46,957 Like you are a business. 179 00:08:47,617 --> 00:08:49,087 Am I am I, am I a charity? 180 00:08:49,897 --> 00:08:50,707 Am I giving you money? 181 00:08:50,712 --> 00:08:50,832 Just. 182 00:08:51,682 --> 00:08:52,552 That can help. 183 00:08:52,552 --> 00:08:55,432 And I've seen it like with models like Patreon and people who just want 184 00:08:55,432 --> 00:08:59,482 to support artists to do their work, fine, but there's still some kind 185 00:08:59,487 --> 00:09:00,802 of value that people are getting. 186 00:09:01,252 --> 00:09:01,972 Not guilt. 187 00:09:02,302 --> 00:09:06,352 I'm not trying to get someone to pay you money by through guilt. 188 00:09:06,412 --> 00:09:09,532 I feel personally, I find that a bit challenging. 189 00:09:10,082 --> 00:09:13,812 Uh, but even just from a purely pricing strategy approach. 190 00:09:13,812 --> 00:09:17,652 It's like, well, what is it about the, this customer that, 191 00:09:17,682 --> 00:09:18,822 what's the good feeling here? 192 00:09:18,852 --> 00:09:20,502 'Cause guild doesn't feel like a very good feeling. 193 00:09:20,682 --> 00:09:21,042 Ben: Mm. 194 00:09:21,132 --> 00:09:23,232 Carlos: So that's, that's what I was picking up on there. 195 00:09:23,232 --> 00:09:28,002 So when I'm thinking about pricing from the inside out, it's like 196 00:09:28,032 --> 00:09:31,272 if this is this unfiltered, oh, I feel really, really scared. 197 00:09:31,272 --> 00:09:34,032 I really feel really, really desperate and I feel really, really, um, 198 00:09:34,272 --> 00:09:36,472 needy, can you please pay this price? 199 00:09:37,072 --> 00:09:41,302 That's when I think you are, well, you, you are gonna come up with 200 00:09:41,302 --> 00:09:46,042 either a, some resistance, uh, at best and ambivalence at worst, 201 00:09:46,042 --> 00:09:50,167 maybe someone just, essentially blatantly saying, that's not worth it. 202 00:09:50,587 --> 00:09:50,677 Ben: Mm-Hmm. 203 00:09:50,917 --> 00:09:54,697 Carlos: Because you're not talking to me about what I'm getting out of it at all. 204 00:09:55,267 --> 00:09:58,297 Um, and, and that's not based on any kind of, uh. 205 00:09:58,972 --> 00:10:03,472 At least some kind of understanding or knowledge of who you're selling to. 206 00:10:03,477 --> 00:10:04,372 Ben: Mm-Hmm mm-Hmm. 207 00:10:04,432 --> 00:10:05,362 Carlos: It's all coming from me. 208 00:10:05,422 --> 00:10:08,032 I need, I need, I need, I need this much money feed. 209 00:10:08,037 --> 00:10:10,312 I need you to pay this much money and I need it to survive. 210 00:10:10,492 --> 00:10:10,582 Ben: Mm-Hmm. 211 00:10:10,582 --> 00:10:11,092 Carlos: Please pay. 212 00:10:11,358 --> 00:10:14,298 Ben: I think it's a further, it's like, it's not, it's partly, you 213 00:10:14,298 --> 00:10:16,578 know, they're not coming at it from a position of knowledge or 214 00:10:16,578 --> 00:10:20,448 understanding about what me, the kind of customer or client might wanna do. 215 00:10:20,838 --> 00:10:23,268 But also it sort of talks to a lack of kind of care. 216 00:10:23,943 --> 00:10:28,143 Actually, I'm not, I don't really care about, um, kind of what's 217 00:10:28,143 --> 00:10:30,933 happening on the, on the other side of the other side of the table. 218 00:10:31,263 --> 00:10:33,633 Uh, and that kind of blindness of it really. 219 00:10:34,113 --> 00:10:37,563 Uh, because yeah, you know, there are two parties in all of these, in 220 00:10:37,563 --> 00:10:40,623 all of these transactions and better understanding what the, the kind of 221 00:10:40,623 --> 00:10:45,513 buying party wants and needs and values and sort of judges and all of those 222 00:10:45,513 --> 00:10:49,683 things will mean you are doing better work and you are also better understand 223 00:10:50,013 --> 00:10:51,508 what something is worth to them. 224 00:10:51,832 --> 00:10:53,902 Carlos: Well, I think the, the word for me the, the really 225 00:10:53,902 --> 00:10:55,462 important word there is care. 226 00:10:55,732 --> 00:10:56,092 Ben: Mm-Hmm. 227 00:10:56,302 --> 00:10:59,782 Carlos: Is like, particularly for the work and the kinds of people that 228 00:10:59,782 --> 00:11:03,502 we are talking to and surrounding ourselves with and wanting to work 229 00:11:03,507 --> 00:11:07,912 with, are people who care about the people, not just the money. 230 00:11:08,482 --> 00:11:12,382 And so, in terms of an outside in approach, it's like, I 231 00:11:12,382 --> 00:11:13,792 wanna understand these people. 232 00:11:13,792 --> 00:11:15,322 I wanna know what they're trying to do. 233 00:11:15,322 --> 00:11:16,942 I wanna know what they're struggling with. 234 00:11:16,942 --> 00:11:21,712 I wanna know what that means to them so that I can actually help them and I can 235 00:11:21,712 --> 00:11:25,507 work out what we're doing with the Happy Pricing course, how much money they're 236 00:11:25,507 --> 00:11:27,277 willing to pay for us to help them. 237 00:11:27,407 --> 00:11:30,257 And then with the inside out approach, I think what boundaries 238 00:11:30,257 --> 00:11:34,127 can I create for myself so that I'm not just pandering to anyone? 239 00:11:34,367 --> 00:11:34,457 Ben: Mm-Hmm. 240 00:11:34,577 --> 00:11:37,517 Carlos: I have some clear understanding and you talk about the course. 241 00:11:37,697 --> 00:11:39,947 What more money, um, could buy me? 242 00:11:40,337 --> 00:11:44,537 You know, what are the kind of the minimum, what's the 243 00:11:44,537 --> 00:11:45,467 minimum amount of money? 244 00:11:45,467 --> 00:11:48,507 I'm willing to, uh, sell my services for? 245 00:11:48,767 --> 00:11:52,477 Or what am I willing to give away consciously, not because of I need 246 00:11:52,477 --> 00:11:56,437 them, need the client, but because I feel like investing in that person. 247 00:11:56,497 --> 00:11:56,917 Ben: Mm-Hmm. 248 00:11:57,007 --> 00:11:57,727 Carlos: Investing my time. 249 00:11:57,727 --> 00:12:00,877 There's something, and this is where point lesson two about 250 00:12:00,882 --> 00:12:02,557 strategy, I think is interesting. 251 00:12:03,037 --> 00:12:07,297 You know, having a strategic understanding of pricing as opposed to 252 00:12:07,297 --> 00:12:10,417 just, again, throwing out some prices. 253 00:12:10,599 --> 00:12:13,389 Because I think about, when I think about strategic aspect of pricing, the 254 00:12:13,389 --> 00:12:16,899 thing that's springing to mind is like, I might have a product or service that 255 00:12:17,499 --> 00:12:24,159 I charge 49, 60, 90 $9 in, uh, before, in the past, but actually I'm reducing 256 00:12:24,164 --> 00:12:27,879 the price, not because the value is less, because it's a stepping stone 257 00:12:27,909 --> 00:12:29,469 to something else that I've created. 258 00:12:29,779 --> 00:12:33,379 And so this idea of like thinking about price, not in isolation of the product, 259 00:12:33,439 --> 00:12:37,069 but in terms of, in this case, when I think about strategy, what's the 260 00:12:37,069 --> 00:12:41,329 bigger journey, or the longer journey that my customers potentially go on? 261 00:12:41,689 --> 00:12:47,119 And so I'm pricing not only based on the value to them, but also how 262 00:12:47,119 --> 00:12:52,989 I think they'll feel more amenable to try this thing than this thing, 263 00:12:53,049 --> 00:12:56,049 than this thing 'cause it tells a story not only in terms of their 264 00:12:56,049 --> 00:12:58,869 own growth and development, but also how much they're willing to 265 00:12:58,869 --> 00:13:00,759 invest at different points of their. 266 00:13:01,344 --> 00:13:03,054 Education or transformation. 267 00:13:03,054 --> 00:13:03,144 Ben: Mm-Hmm. 268 00:13:03,617 --> 00:13:05,507 So the thing that was actually coming to my head as you were talking there 269 00:13:05,537 --> 00:13:08,267 was not directly what you were talking about, but don't say that personally. 270 00:13:09,467 --> 00:13:13,287 The thought that was actually coming up was if Elon Musk was 271 00:13:13,287 --> 00:13:14,847 on the Happy Pricing course 272 00:13:15,117 --> 00:13:15,357 Carlos: Yeah. 273 00:13:15,717 --> 00:13:19,077 Ben: Working out while two at Twitter, what would we have gone through, right? 274 00:13:19,107 --> 00:13:19,437 Carlos: Ooh. 275 00:13:19,467 --> 00:13:24,507 Ben: So obviously he would've begun the endeavor, the exercise, thinking 276 00:13:24,507 --> 00:13:27,447 about his attention, thinking about what he wanted to get out of it, thinking 277 00:13:27,447 --> 00:13:28,622 about all of those sorts of things. 278 00:13:28,642 --> 00:13:31,767 So it had some kind of clarity about the kind of direction he was traveling 279 00:13:31,772 --> 00:13:32,697 and the work that he wanted to do. 280 00:13:33,267 --> 00:13:37,372 Then the next thing that he would do, uh, on the course with his happy 281 00:13:37,372 --> 00:13:41,392 cohort of other people having made the relatively small investment compared to 282 00:13:41,392 --> 00:13:46,312 the 44 billion that he spent on Twitter, um, he basically would've done some 283 00:13:46,312 --> 00:13:49,942 more work thinking about what it is that the people were actually buying. 284 00:13:50,002 --> 00:13:55,197 So in his mind he's thinking this blue tick is worth something to people. 285 00:13:55,227 --> 00:13:58,737 So there is a universe of people who have that blue tick that 286 00:13:58,767 --> 00:14:00,507 presumably it is worth something. 287 00:14:00,867 --> 00:14:03,147 And actually, so one of the things we do is actually better 288 00:14:03,147 --> 00:14:06,567 understand, well, what is it that those people are actually buying? 289 00:14:06,567 --> 00:14:07,107 What is it? 290 00:14:07,107 --> 00:14:11,417 What is the change that those people are wanting, are enjoying by kind of 291 00:14:11,417 --> 00:14:14,207 wanting the blue tick and being willing to spend money on the blue tick. 292 00:14:14,567 --> 00:14:18,467 And so there will be a whole range of things which are important to people 293 00:14:18,617 --> 00:14:22,457 who have the blue tick, uh, about why they would want it, why it's important 294 00:14:22,462 --> 00:14:25,877 for them, which might be about status, which might be about how other people 295 00:14:25,882 --> 00:14:29,357 perceive them, might be about their own kind of credibility or their own 296 00:14:29,357 --> 00:14:33,227 respect or their own understanding or their own kind of sort of professional, 297 00:14:33,287 --> 00:14:35,147 um, sort of integrity or positioning. 298 00:14:35,327 --> 00:14:37,127 Might be important for the work that they do. 299 00:14:37,132 --> 00:14:39,707 It might be important for their ability to. 300 00:14:39,842 --> 00:14:42,782 Grow and connect and, and grow more, more followers. 301 00:14:42,962 --> 00:14:47,072 There'll be a whole range of reasons that are actually important to people 302 00:14:47,072 --> 00:14:49,322 for why they want the blue tick. 303 00:14:49,322 --> 00:14:52,052 And all of those things do varying degrees and reasons, 304 00:14:52,202 --> 00:14:53,642 of course have a value. 305 00:14:53,672 --> 00:14:55,862 They have a value to, you know, why is it important for 306 00:14:55,862 --> 00:14:57,212 Carlos to have a blue tick? 307 00:14:57,217 --> 00:15:01,232 Because his followers think about him in a certain way, more likely to 308 00:15:01,232 --> 00:15:02,732 attract other followers as followers. 309 00:15:03,002 --> 00:15:06,002 People will pay attention more to things that he says or he doesn't say. 310 00:15:06,182 --> 00:15:07,922 So there is value in that to you. 311 00:15:08,257 --> 00:15:12,307 And so the, the, the task for Elon while he's on the course and with 312 00:15:12,307 --> 00:15:16,117 the tools that he gets, probably by joining the Momentum bit afterwards, 313 00:15:16,117 --> 00:15:18,937 'cause he is not gonna nail all of this just in the one go, he is gonna 314 00:15:18,937 --> 00:15:22,537 have to work at this for a little bit of time, is he kind better 315 00:15:22,537 --> 00:15:25,537 understands all of these motivations and clarifications and all of this things. 316 00:15:25,807 --> 00:15:28,777 And then he basically starts to experiment in a conversational 317 00:15:28,777 --> 00:15:30,847 sense with a pool of key people. 318 00:15:30,877 --> 00:15:33,007 'Cause of course he's not gonna do it with all the people who 319 00:15:33,007 --> 00:15:36,157 have a blue tick or all the people who might want a blue, blue tick. 320 00:15:36,247 --> 00:15:39,727 He's going to sort of experiment, be in conversation with a relatively 321 00:15:39,727 --> 00:15:43,357 small group of those people, you know, using questions, using conversations to 322 00:15:43,357 --> 00:15:46,747 understand what is it that the Carlos is of the world who have a blue tick? 323 00:15:46,987 --> 00:15:48,037 Why do they want it? 324 00:15:48,097 --> 00:15:49,237 Why is it important for them? 325 00:15:49,447 --> 00:15:51,187 What do they gain from doing that? 326 00:15:51,367 --> 00:15:55,417 And through being in conversation, he will start to better understand 327 00:15:55,627 --> 00:15:59,167 what the value of the blue tick is to different people at different times. 328 00:15:59,437 --> 00:16:02,107 And as he better understands what the value of the blue tick is to different 329 00:16:02,107 --> 00:16:06,397 people at different times, he's able to go into the fourth part of the 330 00:16:06,397 --> 00:16:10,747 Happy Pricing, uh, course and start to understand with what options might be. 331 00:16:10,747 --> 00:16:12,667 Because I think that's the other thing, which is kind 332 00:16:12,667 --> 00:16:14,137 of alluded to in the article. 333 00:16:14,677 --> 00:16:16,567 It spoke a little bit about framing there. 334 00:16:16,567 --> 00:16:17,437 There's no kind of frame. 335 00:16:17,437 --> 00:16:17,797 We're just. 336 00:16:18,022 --> 00:16:19,702 Vomiting a figure into the world. 337 00:16:19,882 --> 00:16:21,682 There does need to be some choice. 338 00:16:21,682 --> 00:16:24,712 You know, the Carloses of the world who have a blue tick, don't want 339 00:16:24,712 --> 00:16:28,522 to feel like a price is just being forced on their head, which is a 340 00:16:28,522 --> 00:16:31,462 yes no thing, I'm in or I'm out and this is the, you know, either, 341 00:16:31,467 --> 00:16:32,992 either I do this or I don't do this. 342 00:16:33,257 --> 00:16:37,277 There should be some opportunity for Carloses to engage at a different 343 00:16:37,282 --> 00:16:40,487 level, or there should be an opportunity for Carlos to understand 344 00:16:40,697 --> 00:16:44,657 the value of a blue tick at this price versus one at this price, might 345 00:16:44,657 --> 00:16:47,987 point to kind of different benefits or different ways of, of engaging. 346 00:16:48,197 --> 00:16:49,967 So that sort of suite of things, if. 347 00:16:49,987 --> 00:16:53,827 Elon would like to join us on the course he's of course very welcome to do that. 348 00:16:53,977 --> 00:16:55,147 But I think it's about that. 349 00:16:55,147 --> 00:16:56,287 It's about process. 350 00:16:56,287 --> 00:16:58,867 It's about, and again, what it's talking about in the article, there 351 00:16:58,867 --> 00:17:00,367 is about, it is about strategy. 352 00:17:00,547 --> 00:17:01,957 It is about thinking things through. 353 00:17:02,107 --> 00:17:03,247 It is about research. 354 00:17:03,277 --> 00:17:04,417 It is about framing. 355 00:17:04,567 --> 00:17:09,247 It is about having care for the Carloses of the world, and better understanding 356 00:17:09,247 --> 00:17:12,037 what it is for them about why. 357 00:17:12,062 --> 00:17:14,892 And the, you know, why, why would I even want a blue tick? 358 00:17:15,182 --> 00:17:16,142 What's it gonna do for me? 359 00:17:16,142 --> 00:17:19,592 And I think if you don't get into that space, you are never gonna be able 360 00:17:19,592 --> 00:17:24,152 to think about a price that speaks to, you know, speaks to you or speaks 361 00:17:24,152 --> 00:17:28,067 to somebody who might be willing or able to pay for the blue tick. 362 00:17:28,067 --> 00:17:31,322 Because undoubtedly there are many people who would pay for it if it 363 00:17:31,327 --> 00:17:33,092 was spoken to them in the right way. 364 00:17:33,212 --> 00:17:35,462 Uh, for the right reason with the right care. 365 00:17:35,579 --> 00:17:35,789 Carlos: Yeah. 366 00:17:35,789 --> 00:17:38,729 And I think it's interesting that whole, you know, giving that example 367 00:17:38,729 --> 00:17:40,279 of, would I pay for a blue tick? 368 00:17:41,004 --> 00:17:45,324 At the moment, no, because, uh, a I don't have a massive 369 00:17:45,324 --> 00:17:46,794 enough brand to defend. 370 00:17:46,854 --> 00:17:50,634 So my assumption now, so if we're gonna say like, someone who wants to pay a 371 00:17:50,639 --> 00:17:55,134 blue for a blue tick is potentially someone who's gonna have lots of other 372 00:17:55,134 --> 00:17:58,734 accounts who are trying to piggyback on their brand and their status. 373 00:17:59,184 --> 00:18:02,724 And so they want to be heard as the authoritative person for 374 00:18:02,724 --> 00:18:06,594 themselves, as opposed to be having their followers distracted or 375 00:18:06,594 --> 00:18:07,884 people distracted by other people. 376 00:18:07,884 --> 00:18:07,914 I. 377 00:18:08,694 --> 00:18:12,804 So depending on how important my brand is and how important it is 378 00:18:12,809 --> 00:18:16,014 for other aspects of my business, whether I'm a speaker, whether I'm 379 00:18:16,014 --> 00:18:20,244 a writer, whether I'm a politician, then that starts to tell me a story 380 00:18:20,244 --> 00:18:27,234 of like, ah, yes, actually $20 is cheap compared to losing a 10 grand 381 00:18:27,239 --> 00:18:32,429 speaking gig, or suddenly being defamed because I said something contentious 382 00:18:32,849 --> 00:18:34,709 online that people mistook me for. 383 00:18:35,274 --> 00:18:40,854 So even in that case, if I was someone, uh, on the maybe hundreds 384 00:18:40,854 --> 00:18:44,544 of thousands, and this is off the top of my head, if I Barack Obama and I 385 00:18:44,549 --> 00:18:47,484 had a hundred million followers, to be honest, I don't need a blue tick. 386 00:18:47,724 --> 00:18:47,814 Ben: Mm-Hmm. 387 00:18:48,054 --> 00:18:50,934 Carlos: Because everyone knows this is the place. 388 00:18:51,264 --> 00:18:54,054 But if I'm on that cusp where it's hard to differentiate, is that 389 00:18:54,054 --> 00:18:57,474 the real person or not, then there might be some value paying even 390 00:18:57,474 --> 00:18:59,874 $99 if it's core to my business. 391 00:19:00,204 --> 00:19:04,614 And this is the interesting thing here is like who is the core customer? 392 00:19:05,169 --> 00:19:08,319 Or of the blue, the, the Twitter's blue tick. 393 00:19:08,623 --> 00:19:13,093 Because then that, for me, from what you're saying, starts to dictate 394 00:19:13,093 --> 00:19:15,403 Okay, the where the price should be. 395 00:19:16,273 --> 00:19:20,203 And I think what's going through my head is like, how much money does Twitter 396 00:19:20,203 --> 00:19:22,898 need to make in order to, to whatever? 397 00:19:23,413 --> 00:19:27,013 Because if I'm gonna flip it on its head now let's talk about 398 00:19:27,313 --> 00:19:29,653 Elon buying Twitter itself. 399 00:19:29,773 --> 00:19:30,283 Ben: Mm-Hmm. 400 00:19:30,763 --> 00:19:34,903 Carlos: Why would Elon pay $44 billion for Twitter? 401 00:19:35,173 --> 00:19:35,263 Ben: Mm-Hmm. 402 00:19:35,833 --> 00:19:38,983 Carlos: Now, as I understand it from a quick Google research, they 403 00:19:38,983 --> 00:19:41,533 make $5 billion in revenue a year. 404 00:19:42,073 --> 00:19:44,983 Now I do, correct me if I'm wrong, you are the investor person. 405 00:19:45,403 --> 00:19:49,273 Uh, our rule of thumb, I've heard for tech stocks is like a 10 x. 406 00:19:49,573 --> 00:19:54,403 I'm not sure if it's on profit or of revenue as a valuation rule of thumb. 407 00:19:54,582 --> 00:19:57,582 Ben: There's not a quick answer to this point for the reason actually. 408 00:19:57,582 --> 00:20:00,702 Why A lot of this is kind of interesting because yeah, like an investor would 409 00:20:00,702 --> 00:20:03,912 say, oh, you know, there is a, there should be a multiple of profits. 410 00:20:03,972 --> 00:20:06,372 It should be, but of course that doesn't happen at all. 411 00:20:06,372 --> 00:20:13,982 Like Facebook bought WhatsApp for $19 billion when it was generating 412 00:20:14,252 --> 00:20:17,102 like not, not 100th of that. 413 00:20:17,432 --> 00:20:17,702 Why? 414 00:20:17,702 --> 00:20:21,422 Because the value of it to the buyer is worth that for the 415 00:20:21,422 --> 00:20:23,012 reasons, which it is for that. 416 00:20:23,012 --> 00:20:26,672 So all those things around multiples, and the rest of it is just the story 417 00:20:26,677 --> 00:20:30,062 that we tell ourselves to justify why we've done something, whether 418 00:20:30,062 --> 00:20:33,482 it's Elon Musk buying Twitter, or you know, somebody buying 419 00:20:33,512 --> 00:20:34,807 your service, whatever it may be. 420 00:20:35,292 --> 00:20:39,372 Carlos: And so this for me illustrates, well, I was trying to illustrate the 421 00:20:39,372 --> 00:20:40,812 values in the eye of the beholder. 422 00:20:40,872 --> 00:20:41,082 Ben: Mm. 423 00:20:41,262 --> 00:20:45,312 Carlos: Without asking Elon, why is it worth $44 billion? 424 00:20:45,312 --> 00:20:49,092 Because it might not be for anyone else worth, not even if you did the, 425 00:20:49,152 --> 00:20:51,852 you know, the calculations and the revenue, you know how much you're 426 00:20:51,852 --> 00:20:55,122 gonna return on investment over 10 years, it probably won't even 427 00:20:55,212 --> 00:20:59,112 touch a, like you said, a hundredth of the investment that he's made. 428 00:20:59,712 --> 00:21:00,912 But there's a bigger play. 429 00:21:01,602 --> 00:21:04,152 You know, what is Elon actually buying? 430 00:21:04,302 --> 00:21:05,262 Is the question. 431 00:21:05,652 --> 00:21:09,132 And then maybe when you understand the answer of that, then you say, oh yeah, 432 00:21:09,672 --> 00:21:12,132 I can see why it's worth $44 billion. 433 00:21:12,132 --> 00:21:15,732 As opposed to, why are you paying $44 billion for that thing? 434 00:21:15,942 --> 00:21:16,242 Ben: Yeah. 435 00:21:16,332 --> 00:21:18,157 To him in that moment is why it worth. 436 00:21:18,162 --> 00:21:18,642 Carlos: To him. 437 00:21:18,642 --> 00:21:19,242 Exactly. 438 00:21:19,722 --> 00:21:23,232 And so the invitation is to then transpose that situation 439 00:21:23,442 --> 00:21:25,842 to your customer when they're buying something off of you. 440 00:21:26,052 --> 00:21:26,442 Ben: Mm-Hmm. 441 00:21:26,772 --> 00:21:30,687 Carlos: Are they just buying the thing or are they buying something more? 442 00:21:30,867 --> 00:21:31,197 Ben: Yeah. 443 00:21:31,257 --> 00:21:32,607 Carlos: Something that's in their mind. 444 00:21:32,607 --> 00:21:36,867 Some, like you say, a good feeling or a solution that's in their 445 00:21:36,867 --> 00:21:38,307 heads, not necessarily yours. 446 00:21:38,312 --> 00:21:38,652 Ben: Mm-Hmm. 447 00:21:38,817 --> 00:21:39,057 Yeah. 448 00:21:39,057 --> 00:21:42,717 I mean entirely in their heads and never in yours. 449 00:21:43,147 --> 00:21:46,177 I think, I think where you got to there is a nice, that actually 450 00:21:46,177 --> 00:21:50,347 the value is in the eye of the beholder, is in the eye of the buyer. 451 00:21:50,927 --> 00:21:55,427 And so all this sort of stuff is actually that, that's the place 452 00:21:55,427 --> 00:22:00,107 we need to be is what is the story your customer, your client is 453 00:22:00,112 --> 00:22:04,517 telling themselves, and how is it that the thing that you have sort 454 00:22:04,517 --> 00:22:08,717 of supports them in that change, supports them in that journey, 455 00:22:08,897 --> 00:22:10,787 supports them in that transformation? 456 00:22:11,057 --> 00:22:12,347 'Cause that's the thing that. 457 00:22:13,417 --> 00:22:14,377 Somebody is buying. 458 00:22:14,887 --> 00:22:18,787 And so what we can do, all we can do is try and take the time 459 00:22:18,787 --> 00:22:22,717 to kind of understand what those stories might be so that we can 460 00:22:22,747 --> 00:22:26,737 start to understand how our thing, how our product, how our service 461 00:22:27,037 --> 00:22:29,077 plugs into helping them achieve it. 462 00:22:29,408 --> 00:22:32,558 Carlos: And I like the, you know, use of the word stories 463 00:22:32,558 --> 00:22:33,278 and thinking about stories. 464 00:22:33,278 --> 00:22:36,488 This is something that we're doing at the moment with Vision 2020. 465 00:22:36,488 --> 00:22:39,758 We're, we're kind of focusing a bit more on stories. 466 00:22:40,253 --> 00:22:44,071 And there's the stories that your customer's telling themselves and 467 00:22:44,071 --> 00:22:48,841 then there's how we relay that or reflect that story so that 468 00:22:48,841 --> 00:22:50,671 they feel a sense of empathy. 469 00:22:50,701 --> 00:22:54,001 'Cause I think the other aspect of this is there's value in trust. 470 00:22:54,766 --> 00:22:57,676 I'm more likely to pay someone who I trust who actually 471 00:22:57,946 --> 00:22:59,146 seems to see in my head. 472 00:22:59,686 --> 00:23:05,746 And that way, again, it doesn't have to be more stuff in order to charge more. 473 00:23:06,226 --> 00:23:09,046 There's something else around relationships, understanding, 474 00:23:09,046 --> 00:23:11,186 empathy, and caring. 475 00:23:11,832 --> 00:23:15,607 thank you very much for your words and your time and your ears. 476 00:23:15,907 --> 00:23:18,907 And until next time, uh, keep on pricing happy.