1 00:00:39,750 --> 00:00:41,640 Brittney Sherman: Hey, there's Carlitos. 2 00:00:42,090 --> 00:00:43,140 I just cut you off. 3 00:00:43,140 --> 00:00:44,370 You were about to start, go for it. 4 00:00:45,585 --> 00:00:46,395 Sonia Meza-Leon: No, I wasn't. 5 00:00:46,455 --> 00:00:47,055 I wasn't. 6 00:00:47,235 --> 00:00:48,195 Oh, I thought you go, 7 00:00:49,725 --> 00:00:51,435 Brittney Sherman: okay, well, this is a fun start. 8 00:00:51,435 --> 00:00:56,835 Hopefully it's not a sign of things to come, but welcome back to 9 00:00:56,835 --> 00:00:57,375 Sonia Meza-Leon: Scott. 10 00:00:59,535 --> 00:01:00,555 We have 11 00:01:00,555 --> 00:01:05,385 Brittney Sherman: a big popular topic that may have fallen out of the headlines 12 00:01:05,385 --> 00:01:11,145 a little bit recently, but was huge news 15 years ago when it happened. 13 00:01:11,625 --> 00:01:15,855 Uh, Sonia, what is our true crime topic today? 14 00:01:16,095 --> 00:01:16,635 Today, 15 00:01:16,665 --> 00:01:20,355 Sonia Meza-Leon: we are talking about Dennis Rader, also known as BTK, 16 00:01:20,625 --> 00:01:23,325 which stands for bind, torture, kill. 17 00:01:23,625 --> 00:01:26,595 And he was essentially the BTK killer. 18 00:01:26,655 --> 00:01:30,755 Self-proclaimed, uh, not shy about letting people know that. 19 00:01:31,710 --> 00:01:36,930 He anonymously of course, took responsibility for the murders 20 00:01:36,930 --> 00:01:41,430 that happened, which there were 10 of them between 1974 and 1991. 21 00:01:41,670 --> 00:01:47,760 He was not actually caught until 2005 and he was caught because of his own. 22 00:01:48,180 --> 00:01:54,210 Um, I think I would call it, uh, a slip up, you know, and, uh, oh, 23 00:01:54,210 --> 00:01:58,230 definitely because of his hubris and a bit of his naive a D in my opinion, 24 00:01:58,230 --> 00:01:59,880 I mean, he was stupid for believing. 25 00:02:00,420 --> 00:02:00,540 It 26 00:02:00,540 --> 00:02:03,240 Brittney Sherman: was pretty, you know, we'll, we'll cover why it was dumb, but 27 00:02:03,240 --> 00:02:04,890 it was a really dumb way to get caught. 28 00:02:05,850 --> 00:02:06,690 Sonia Meza-Leon: Exactly. 29 00:02:07,050 --> 00:02:09,090 Um, but that sort of speaks to his arrogance. 30 00:02:09,360 --> 00:02:14,160 He is serving 10 consecutive life sentences right now in Kansas. 31 00:02:14,520 --> 00:02:16,470 He was born in Wichita, Kansas. 32 00:02:16,530 --> 00:02:20,550 Um, he spent his time there growing up and then he moved to park city, Kansas. 33 00:02:21,000 --> 00:02:24,510 He was born in 1945 on March 9th. 34 00:02:24,570 --> 00:02:31,500 And he was born to, um, Dorothea may Raider and William Elvin. 35 00:02:31,500 --> 00:02:31,950 Raider 36 00:02:33,360 --> 00:02:33,960 Brittney Sherman: sidebar. 37 00:02:34,650 --> 00:02:34,800 Yeah. 38 00:02:35,310 --> 00:02:41,070 I had an oboe instructor named when I was a kid and I have 39 00:02:41,070 --> 00:02:42,240 never heard that name since. 40 00:02:42,240 --> 00:02:43,530 So I think that's awesome. 41 00:02:45,090 --> 00:02:47,490 Sonia Meza-Leon: DOR Tia or door Dorothea. 42 00:02:47,760 --> 00:02:50,310 Well, I think what this same thing, 43 00:02:50,460 --> 00:02:53,100 Brittney Sherman: but like positions, I think it's the same thing 44 00:02:53,100 --> 00:02:54,990 because it's spelled the same way. 45 00:02:55,290 --> 00:02:58,440 It's just, she pronounced it like the original German intended. 46 00:03:03,945 --> 00:03:05,325 Sonia Meza-Leon: very macho. 47 00:03:06,165 --> 00:03:06,765 Um, all right. 48 00:03:06,765 --> 00:03:11,385 So Dennis Rader, he's one of, uh, four. 49 00:03:12,855 --> 00:03:14,355 Yes, he's one of four sons. 50 00:03:14,715 --> 00:03:18,855 Um, well, I'm not going to get too much honestly, into the Raider family, 51 00:03:19,304 --> 00:03:25,695 especially, um, you know, out of respect for the tenders, Raiders wife and his two 52 00:03:25,695 --> 00:03:32,984 children who had to endure the craziness that ensued after he was found out. 53 00:03:33,405 --> 00:03:39,285 And then of course, you know, these are people who were, you know, raised by him 54 00:03:39,285 --> 00:03:43,815 and who were married to him for all those years while he was doing these crimes. 55 00:03:44,084 --> 00:03:47,595 So, you know, I, I've watched a lot of documentaries with, um, in 56 00:03:47,595 --> 00:03:50,805 particular Dennis rater's daughter talking about, um, how they didn't 57 00:03:50,805 --> 00:03:53,265 know and how devastating it was. 58 00:03:53,265 --> 00:03:54,644 And I really feel for these people. 59 00:03:54,644 --> 00:03:56,714 So I'm not going to spend a ton of time on that. 60 00:03:56,805 --> 00:04:00,584 We'll talk a little bit later about some of the current situations, but, um, you 61 00:04:00,584 --> 00:04:05,924 know, I have to say Dennis Rader, BTK, I'm not going to say he's my favorite 62 00:04:05,924 --> 00:04:08,234 serial killer because that's a weird word. 63 00:04:08,295 --> 00:04:09,404 I do believe. 64 00:04:10,155 --> 00:04:10,605 Yeah. 65 00:04:10,665 --> 00:04:15,075 In my heart of hearts, I hate him the most of all other serial killers. 66 00:04:15,704 --> 00:04:16,555 And I'll tell you why. 67 00:04:16,575 --> 00:04:16,815 Okay. 68 00:04:16,904 --> 00:04:19,904 Um, and you got, yeah, no for sure. 69 00:04:20,265 --> 00:04:23,265 This guy for all of these years. 70 00:04:23,265 --> 00:04:28,155 So he, he, what what's interesting about Dennis rater and his ability 71 00:04:28,155 --> 00:04:32,925 to sort of, um, hide from the police and the authorities for so long 72 00:04:33,224 --> 00:04:35,655 was that he was not a stupid man. 73 00:04:35,685 --> 00:04:38,865 Certainly he was moderately educated. 74 00:04:39,135 --> 00:04:40,544 He was white. 75 00:04:40,635 --> 00:04:42,344 He was like five, nine. 76 00:04:42,664 --> 00:04:45,255 He was, you know, your regular old guy. 77 00:04:45,555 --> 00:04:50,685 He worked for in a variety of capacities that gave him access 78 00:04:50,985 --> 00:04:56,385 and taught him, um, how to really get really good at his crime. 79 00:04:56,865 --> 00:04:58,544 In addition to that, he had. 80 00:04:59,255 --> 00:05:04,475 Pretty serious issues, uh, sexual perversions. 81 00:05:04,715 --> 00:05:07,895 And when I say that, because there's lots of whatever's out 82 00:05:07,895 --> 00:05:09,035 there, you can fetish all day. 83 00:05:09,035 --> 00:05:09,605 How about it? 84 00:05:09,845 --> 00:05:12,485 But he enjoyed torturing animals. 85 00:05:12,485 --> 00:05:14,225 He endured joy tortured. 86 00:05:15,090 --> 00:05:19,890 People in particular women and, um, in ultimately murdering them 87 00:05:19,890 --> 00:05:26,820 and leaving him them in an UN undistinguished, humiliating state. 88 00:05:26,940 --> 00:05:30,090 Um, you know, and he did this for what, 30 years. 89 00:05:30,300 --> 00:05:32,550 I mean, it's kind of incredible to think that he went on for that 90 00:05:32,550 --> 00:05:36,780 long, especially because he taunted the police as much as he did. 91 00:05:36,780 --> 00:05:41,760 So, you know, let's, we'll dive into each of the murders individually, but 92 00:05:41,760 --> 00:05:45,300 Britney, any, anything you want to talk about in particular with Dennis Rader 93 00:05:45,300 --> 00:05:46,800 before we really start going down? 94 00:05:47,310 --> 00:05:48,420 And I think it's important 95 00:05:48,420 --> 00:05:51,120 Brittney Sherman: to paint a little bit of a picture of his background, 96 00:05:51,120 --> 00:05:52,620 or you covered it a little bit. 97 00:05:52,860 --> 00:05:55,710 Um, and we don't need to go into a lot of detail cause we're going to have a 98 00:05:55,710 --> 00:06:01,620 lot to talk about, uh, with the crimes themselves, but just to get to know the 99 00:06:01,620 --> 00:06:08,610 man Dennis Rader, before he became BTK, as he wanted to be known as, uh, he. 100 00:06:09,260 --> 00:06:16,190 When he was growing up as a child, he was a, a quiet, withdrawn, socially 101 00:06:16,190 --> 00:06:21,740 awkward kid who showed tendencies of violence early on, as Sonia 102 00:06:21,740 --> 00:06:28,610 mentioned, by killing animals and taking pleasure in that he was never a 103 00:06:28,640 --> 00:06:32,120 good student, never very intelligent. 104 00:06:32,510 --> 00:06:38,390 Um, I mean, he was a pretty good looking guy growing up, but always 105 00:06:38,390 --> 00:06:39,890 kind of struck out with the ladies. 106 00:06:40,250 --> 00:06:46,700 Uh, he graduated high school in 1963 and he went to a community 107 00:06:46,700 --> 00:06:48,020 college for a couple of years. 108 00:06:48,020 --> 00:06:53,660 And then in 1965, he went to Kansas Wesleyan university or college in Salina. 109 00:06:54,140 --> 00:06:58,880 And he dropped out because he wasn't really making his grades cause he 110 00:06:58,880 --> 00:07:01,460 wasn't a really a smart guy and. 111 00:07:02,205 --> 00:07:05,415 And this was of course, like the heart of the Vietnam war. 112 00:07:05,655 --> 00:07:08,535 And so he was afraid of getting drafted. 113 00:07:08,745 --> 00:07:12,375 So he enlisted himself in the air force. 114 00:07:12,585 --> 00:07:16,605 So he would not be on the front lines, on the battlefield. 115 00:07:17,830 --> 00:07:24,760 And so while he was in the air force, he started to show signs of his future. 116 00:07:25,030 --> 00:07:28,869 Uh, violent side is stalking tendencies. 117 00:07:29,169 --> 00:07:32,560 He would, uh, he had a very inflated ego. 118 00:07:32,560 --> 00:07:34,929 He envisioned himself like James Bond. 119 00:07:34,960 --> 00:07:41,890 He would go to bars and like I women, and like stalk them a little bit, not, 120 00:07:41,890 --> 00:07:46,390 not to your point where that he got, but he carried a gun with him because 121 00:07:46,419 --> 00:07:52,239 he felt like he was undercover and always needed to be protected and would 122 00:07:52,239 --> 00:07:54,250 step up if anything were to happen. 123 00:07:54,250 --> 00:08:01,539 And he was always prepared then, uh, he, he came back in 1969, I believe it was. 124 00:08:02,020 --> 00:08:11,405 And he in 1970 and he, uh, He, he met his future wife who Sonia, you 125 00:08:11,405 --> 00:08:12,645 know, I kind of agree with you. 126 00:08:12,645 --> 00:08:14,595 We don't need to discuss too much. 127 00:08:15,105 --> 00:08:17,385 Uh, they were, they dated for a short time. 128 00:08:17,655 --> 00:08:21,075 Paula Dietz is her name and they were married in 1971. 129 00:08:21,885 --> 00:08:22,065 Uh, 130 00:08:22,095 --> 00:08:24,705 Sonia Meza-Leon: after they were married, they had two children, Carrie and 131 00:08:24,705 --> 00:08:29,985 Brian, and for all practical purposes, you know, if you hear from Paula and 132 00:08:29,985 --> 00:08:31,965 from the kids, they had a very normal. 133 00:08:32,840 --> 00:08:37,970 Um, you know, they were, they were as shocked as everyone else. 134 00:08:38,270 --> 00:08:44,270 Um, and so betrayed, obviously when they heard about this, because until then, 135 00:08:44,570 --> 00:08:50,180 you know, there was no, there was no, um, information, you know, or nothing 136 00:08:50,180 --> 00:08:53,060 that would lead them to believe that he was capable of anything like that. 137 00:08:53,240 --> 00:08:58,640 I think there was only one time where Dennis Rader lost his temper with his son 138 00:08:58,850 --> 00:09:01,850 and they had to pull him off of the sun. 139 00:09:02,150 --> 00:09:04,190 Um, but that doesn't make you a murderer. 140 00:09:04,220 --> 00:09:06,680 That just means that you've got some anger issues. 141 00:09:06,680 --> 00:09:07,040 Right. 142 00:09:07,460 --> 00:09:12,740 Um, so, you know, really, there's a lot of interviews out there with, um, you know, 143 00:09:12,770 --> 00:09:17,120 the daughters, uh, and, and I don't know, maybe the son, but, um, it's a lot of 144 00:09:17,120 --> 00:09:18,470 Lynch, interesting information out there. 145 00:09:18,470 --> 00:09:20,180 I would definitely take a look at it. 146 00:09:20,360 --> 00:09:25,160 So, Brittany, as you said, there was a lot of let's go back to, um, you know, 147 00:09:25,160 --> 00:09:28,220 of course talking about the zoo Satan. 148 00:09:28,694 --> 00:09:30,824 Which is torturing, killing and hanging of animals. 149 00:09:31,395 --> 00:09:36,704 He also acted out a lot of sexual fantasies he had, and he will go on 150 00:09:36,704 --> 00:09:41,834 to talk about these fantasies and tell and say that ultimately that's what 151 00:09:41,834 --> 00:09:43,785 drove him to do the things he did. 152 00:09:43,995 --> 00:09:51,255 He called his drive a factor X, and he blamed everything really on factor X. 153 00:09:51,495 --> 00:09:55,275 And that seemed to drive really every move he made, um, or at 154 00:09:55,275 --> 00:09:59,025 least all the moves when it came to his, um, criminal behavior. 155 00:09:59,175 --> 00:10:03,285 And what's crazy about it is, you know, here's a guy who, 156 00:10:03,314 --> 00:10:04,964 again, this is a very long time. 157 00:10:05,115 --> 00:10:09,105 And if you look at, you know, how he murders these people over time, 158 00:10:10,305 --> 00:10:11,714 I mean, it's all over the place. 159 00:10:11,714 --> 00:10:16,214 It's like some in the seventies, eighties, and then in the nineties, but like 160 00:10:16,214 --> 00:10:18,344 he skips like 10 years between them. 161 00:10:18,885 --> 00:10:23,084 Um, sometimes, you know, no, and I think that's, of course, one of the reasons 162 00:10:23,084 --> 00:10:25,905 they couldn't catch him also because we're always led to believe that serial 163 00:10:25,905 --> 00:10:27,974 killers, um, you know, they escalate. 164 00:10:28,005 --> 00:10:30,944 So in my opinion, when we get to the first. 165 00:10:31,685 --> 00:10:34,865 I feel like that's the worst crime he committed and nothing. 166 00:10:34,925 --> 00:10:38,525 I'm not saying, you know, not to, it's not picking favorites, 167 00:10:38,555 --> 00:10:41,975 but it was the one where children were involved and were murdered. 168 00:10:42,155 --> 00:10:47,645 And to start to me at that level is where I'm, I'm just terrified at this person. 169 00:10:47,645 --> 00:10:49,265 And also so angry with him. 170 00:10:49,475 --> 00:10:53,555 I have no tolerance for, for torturing children and the things that he, he did. 171 00:10:53,915 --> 00:10:57,425 Um, but let's talk about the sexual fetish that he was interested in, including 172 00:10:57,425 --> 00:11:02,495 voyeurism autoerotic asphyxiation and cross-dressing, he would always 173 00:11:02,495 --> 00:11:05,135 like in his neighborhood, when he was young, sneak around, watch women get 174 00:11:05,135 --> 00:11:09,095 undressed, he would wear women's clothing. 175 00:11:09,095 --> 00:11:11,675 He would masturbate with ropes and bindings on. 176 00:11:12,960 --> 00:11:15,750 He would even do that dress up thing. 177 00:11:15,750 --> 00:11:18,750 And, um, you know, in-between the murders, right? 178 00:11:18,750 --> 00:11:23,220 By the way, I don't know if you guys realize what autoerotic asphyxiation is. 179 00:11:23,670 --> 00:11:28,890 Um, it's a fairly, I don't know, common thing actually, which I 180 00:11:28,890 --> 00:11:34,350 it's shocking, but essentially it's the strangulation of yourself. 181 00:11:34,380 --> 00:11:40,170 Hence the auto, um, until you write about to the point where you climax 182 00:11:40,470 --> 00:11:44,819 and then you take off whatever you're strangling yourself with and it's 183 00:11:44,819 --> 00:11:48,180 supposed to really, um, sort of. 184 00:11:49,340 --> 00:11:51,410 Elevate your, your orgasm. 185 00:11:51,710 --> 00:11:52,430 Exactly. 186 00:11:52,460 --> 00:11:57,770 There are many people, um, out there in the world, um, celebrities who 187 00:11:57,770 --> 00:12:01,550 we know have died while trying, uh, well, well, not trying, but they 188 00:12:01,550 --> 00:12:02,960 did try cause they didn't succeed. 189 00:12:03,260 --> 00:12:03,650 Yeah. 190 00:12:03,680 --> 00:12:07,820 But, um, a couple of them that you will remember would be Michael Hutchins. 191 00:12:08,090 --> 00:12:13,040 And then also, um, you, I think David Carradine passed away like that. 192 00:12:13,160 --> 00:12:19,070 What I saw, um, on the documentation that I looked at was that Rader 193 00:12:19,070 --> 00:12:25,250 would tie himself to a rope that was tied to the bathroom door 194 00:12:25,250 --> 00:12:27,500 knob, and then leaned forward. 195 00:12:27,890 --> 00:12:30,770 So that's how he would control himself now. 196 00:12:31,190 --> 00:12:34,220 And I, and I guess, because he was so close to the floor, 197 00:12:34,250 --> 00:12:35,870 maybe, I dunno, I dunno. 198 00:12:35,870 --> 00:12:38,120 I don't know how he kept himself, but you know, there's always 199 00:12:38,120 --> 00:12:39,740 a risk when you're practicing. 200 00:12:39,800 --> 00:12:42,920 Autoerotic asphyxiation that you're not going to recover from it. 201 00:12:43,890 --> 00:12:47,580 Brittney Sherman: I don't know how he, how he got away with this, but there 202 00:12:47,580 --> 00:12:52,020 is a picture that he turned over to the police of himself when he was caught in 203 00:12:52,020 --> 00:12:59,610 2005 of himself wearing a woman's mask, which was a common theme for him while he 204 00:12:59,610 --> 00:13:06,450 was partaking in autoerotic asphyxiation and wearing some of his victims clothes. 205 00:13:06,870 --> 00:13:13,200 And he actually tied himself to a tree branch and was hanging in the air one. 206 00:13:13,200 --> 00:13:16,800 I don't know how you physically do that without actually killing yourself. 207 00:13:17,100 --> 00:13:20,820 And two, I don't know how you get away with that and set up a camera to take 208 00:13:20,820 --> 00:13:24,990 a picture of it, but it was a really disturbing picture that he was kind of 209 00:13:24,990 --> 00:13:26,820 proud to turn over to police officers. 210 00:13:28,310 --> 00:13:29,600 Sonia Meza-Leon: Oh, he was a weird dude. 211 00:13:29,600 --> 00:13:32,210 He, he definitely taunted the police. 212 00:13:32,420 --> 00:13:38,360 He wanted people to know that he, whoever he was, um, and he hourly caught 213 00:13:38,360 --> 00:13:40,940 himself BTK that he wanted them to know. 214 00:13:41,210 --> 00:13:42,740 Um, and we'll talk a little, a little bit later. 215 00:13:42,800 --> 00:13:45,890 I think we should go ahead and get into the crimes, but we can talk a 216 00:13:45,890 --> 00:13:49,640 little bit about how along the way he communicated with the police. 217 00:13:50,030 --> 00:13:54,050 Um, but you know, let's start, let's start, uh, at Dennis 218 00:13:54,050 --> 00:13:57,140 Rader, you know, Has two kids. 219 00:13:57,590 --> 00:13:58,820 This is right around the time. 220 00:13:58,850 --> 00:14:03,050 Oh, one more thing I do want to mention by the way he was going to, and he 221 00:14:03,050 --> 00:14:08,330 graduated from Wichita state university and of course he was studying, he 222 00:14:08,330 --> 00:14:10,520 was studying justice administration. 223 00:14:10,760 --> 00:14:17,570 So he, from an early, early, early on, he started really working out, um, and trying 224 00:14:17,570 --> 00:14:23,150 to educate himself on the typical, um, you know, the, the criminal justice system and 225 00:14:23,150 --> 00:14:24,830 how he could get work his way around it. 226 00:14:24,830 --> 00:14:29,330 And Wichita state university is also where BTK, I, uh, also known 227 00:14:29,330 --> 00:14:33,140 as Dennis Rader made a lot of the photocopies of the documents and 228 00:14:33,140 --> 00:14:34,580 letters he sent to the police. 229 00:14:34,760 --> 00:14:38,210 So they were able to trace those back to Wichita state university. 230 00:14:38,814 --> 00:14:43,015 'cause and, and just remember guys, if you read anything about this case, 231 00:14:43,015 --> 00:14:46,495 he was fairly crafty sometimes, but then other times he was fairly stupid. 232 00:14:46,495 --> 00:14:48,625 So I was like, well, I don't, I don't know what this guy's doing. 233 00:14:48,625 --> 00:14:50,245 He seems to be off the rails. 234 00:14:50,455 --> 00:14:53,965 He would make photocopies, he would never send the original letters to the police. 235 00:14:54,175 --> 00:14:56,965 I assume that's because he didn't want them to trace anything about 236 00:14:56,965 --> 00:15:00,625 the letters, but there was still, you know, you could still track down. 237 00:15:00,625 --> 00:15:02,845 And I think IBM helped them track down. 238 00:15:03,145 --> 00:15:07,225 Um, you know, at least the photocopy model photocopier models and where he could get 239 00:15:07,225 --> 00:15:10,765 them and they traced them back to Wichita state, but everybody in the Republic. 240 00:15:10,765 --> 00:15:12,355 So you couldn't really figure it out. 241 00:15:12,444 --> 00:15:16,735 It was, uh, it was too hard to track down, but they got to at least have that detail. 242 00:15:17,005 --> 00:15:17,995 But, um, yeah, no. 243 00:15:17,995 --> 00:15:21,595 See he for a guy who didn't have any time, he had some time. 244 00:15:21,775 --> 00:15:25,105 I mean, it sounded like every waking moment he had was either spending 245 00:15:25,105 --> 00:15:28,085 with his kids in his family, going to school or studying how to 246 00:15:28,505 --> 00:15:29,965 kill people and honestly stopped. 247 00:15:31,470 --> 00:15:32,130 Well, he, 248 00:15:32,520 --> 00:15:35,160 Brittney Sherman: I almost feel like he was, you know, he went 249 00:15:35,160 --> 00:15:41,700 to when he was trying to fill his time by being a community guy. 250 00:15:41,730 --> 00:15:45,840 And like, he was a boy scout troop leader. 251 00:15:45,870 --> 00:15:48,780 He was like president of the church council. 252 00:15:48,930 --> 00:15:50,850 He was always trying to be well-known. 253 00:15:50,850 --> 00:15:53,850 And I, I got the impression and I don't know about you, but I got the 254 00:15:53,850 --> 00:15:59,070 impression that the murders happened when the other activities died down. 255 00:15:59,070 --> 00:16:04,170 And he actually did the other activities to try and quell his urge to kill. 256 00:16:05,855 --> 00:16:08,825 Sonia Meza-Leon: Sometimes sometimes, but I think his number 257 00:16:08,825 --> 00:16:12,125 one priority was always, you know, the sideline piece of it. 258 00:16:12,395 --> 00:16:14,105 It just you're you're right. 259 00:16:14,105 --> 00:16:17,435 There were definitely moments in his life where either he was experiencing 260 00:16:17,435 --> 00:16:19,265 stress or pressure that would drive him. 261 00:16:19,355 --> 00:16:22,505 But most of the documentation in the letters that he, he first off 262 00:16:22,655 --> 00:16:27,365 he's very well, you know, written when it comes to or well documented. 263 00:16:27,365 --> 00:16:29,495 Anyway, he wrote, he has all of these letters. 264 00:16:29,495 --> 00:16:30,545 He has like journals. 265 00:16:30,545 --> 00:16:30,694 He has. 266 00:16:31,255 --> 00:16:34,555 Pictures that he drew of these poor people being tortured. 267 00:16:34,795 --> 00:16:38,785 And then he wrote a book and he, uh, and so nicely of him, he was 268 00:16:38,785 --> 00:16:40,105 like, oh, I'm writing this book. 269 00:16:40,375 --> 00:16:43,975 Um, but I'm going to donate the, donate, the proceeds to the victims. 270 00:16:44,185 --> 00:16:45,955 So I think he did that. 271 00:16:45,955 --> 00:16:50,285 And that was, again, really well-documented he spoke in, in 272 00:16:50,335 --> 00:16:53,245 depth with the police about exactly what happened at each murder too. 273 00:16:53,245 --> 00:16:56,365 So he, and that's one of the ways that they were able to tie some 274 00:16:56,365 --> 00:16:59,185 of these murders to him because he would, no one else would have known 275 00:16:59,365 --> 00:17:02,785 the information that he provided to them, um, except for the murder. 276 00:17:02,795 --> 00:17:07,345 So it was really, really weird and interesting, but, um, you know, let's 277 00:17:07,345 --> 00:17:11,755 talk a little bit about the first, um, set of murders because the first, 278 00:17:11,905 --> 00:17:16,825 the first set of murders actually were formers two adults and two children. 279 00:17:17,275 --> 00:17:22,555 And this was on January 15th, 1974 in Wichita, Kansas. 280 00:17:22,944 --> 00:17:25,675 The victims were Joseph Otero. 281 00:17:25,735 --> 00:17:27,865 He was 38, Julie Otero. 282 00:17:28,575 --> 00:17:32,445 Age 33, Joseph Otero Jr. 283 00:17:32,685 --> 00:17:37,035 And he was nine and then Josephine Oterra who is 11. 284 00:17:37,875 --> 00:17:46,755 So, um, I can, you know, let's walk through some of this, you know, I 285 00:17:47,065 --> 00:17:50,855 don't want to spend too much time on it because the, the, the, the 286 00:17:50,865 --> 00:17:53,205 stuff with the kids is just horrific. 287 00:17:53,595 --> 00:18:00,479 It is, um, By the way the bodies were discovered by the kids or the 288 00:18:00,540 --> 00:18:04,530 family's oldest son who was not there at the time and walked in on this. 289 00:18:04,560 --> 00:18:04,800 Yep. 290 00:18:05,310 --> 00:18:07,350 So, so very, very sad. 291 00:18:07,949 --> 00:18:11,399 Um, from what I understand, it sounds like that, you know, in typical 292 00:18:11,399 --> 00:18:13,409 fashion he breaks into the house. 293 00:18:13,439 --> 00:18:15,300 This is, was fairly common. 294 00:18:15,300 --> 00:18:18,060 Emma of his, he would break into the house, he would have a gun. 295 00:18:18,179 --> 00:18:23,490 He would tell whoever he was breaking in that, you know, he was, he told a lot 296 00:18:23,490 --> 00:18:28,379 of them that he was going to rape them, but not kill them and then robbed them. 297 00:18:28,649 --> 00:18:32,610 And so, but he never, we all know he never raped anyone. 298 00:18:33,060 --> 00:18:35,850 Brittney Sherman: I mean, anyone, there was a lot of sexual tendencies, 299 00:18:35,850 --> 00:18:38,219 but there was never any indication of. 300 00:18:40,114 --> 00:18:40,685 Sonia Meza-Leon: Exactly. 301 00:18:40,685 --> 00:18:46,235 And there was never any semen or any physical, you know, proof of rape as well. 302 00:18:46,235 --> 00:18:52,475 So it seemed apparent that what he was after was a sexual, um, you 303 00:18:52,475 --> 00:18:56,804 know, sort of, uh, he was really trying to fulfill a sexual need, but 304 00:18:56,885 --> 00:18:59,195 didn't have anything to do, honestly. 305 00:18:59,885 --> 00:19:03,034 Sex per se with another person. 306 00:19:03,485 --> 00:19:06,725 Um, I think that, um, and as we can go through this, we'll talk a little 307 00:19:06,725 --> 00:19:10,054 bit more about it, but, you know, emotions of the people that Dennis Rader 308 00:19:10,054 --> 00:19:12,365 murdered were suffocated and strangled. 309 00:19:12,754 --> 00:19:16,205 Um, and, and then one of them I think was stabbed. 310 00:19:16,445 --> 00:19:21,965 But for the most part, he liked to watch people die slowly. 311 00:19:22,235 --> 00:19:27,185 And of course, if he was murdering more than one person, that he was probably, 312 00:19:27,485 --> 00:19:32,284 um, the, uh, the rest of whoever, the people there were likely watching him 313 00:19:32,314 --> 00:19:34,205 kill some of the people in front of him. 314 00:19:34,685 --> 00:19:37,534 So for instance, the Otero family. 315 00:19:38,314 --> 00:19:43,445 So we have a mom and dad who have their two children, nine and 11 with them. 316 00:19:43,835 --> 00:19:45,635 Of course, this guy goes into the house. 317 00:19:45,695 --> 00:19:46,385 They're terrified. 318 00:19:46,929 --> 00:19:49,240 This is the beginning of the BTK murders. 319 00:19:49,300 --> 00:19:50,980 So nobody has any idea. 320 00:19:51,310 --> 00:19:57,340 Now, remember in crazy ass, 1970s, um, where Brittany, you know, we just 321 00:19:57,340 --> 00:20:00,730 were talking about, you know, all the craziness that happens in the 1970s, 322 00:20:00,730 --> 00:20:04,300 like the California freeway killer, which there were multiple, the golden 323 00:20:04,300 --> 00:20:06,189 state killer, the east area rapist. 324 00:20:06,280 --> 00:20:09,639 Like it just doesn't seem like anybody like PR. 325 00:20:09,730 --> 00:20:12,010 I mean, nobody cared what, you know, it was a free for all. 326 00:20:12,100 --> 00:20:14,679 It was so easy to find people and to murder them. 327 00:20:14,980 --> 00:20:16,600 There seems to be so much tension. 328 00:20:16,870 --> 00:20:17,800 It was crazy. 329 00:20:17,800 --> 00:20:19,330 I know crazy. 330 00:20:20,235 --> 00:20:25,005 Like, I just, I mean, it, in a most of these crimes to me were targeted 331 00:20:25,005 --> 00:20:27,315 at women and what was even crazy. 332 00:20:27,315 --> 00:20:29,475 I think you and I talked to your dad the other day, but with the 333 00:20:29,475 --> 00:20:32,535 golden state killer, which has bananas, like I think around that 334 00:20:32,535 --> 00:20:35,775 time where the east area rapist, you know, the rapes were happening. 335 00:20:36,165 --> 00:20:39,405 If you got caught for raping someone, you would probably get like 30 336 00:20:39,405 --> 00:20:41,025 days or 90 days or even probation. 337 00:20:41,025 --> 00:20:44,535 You're not even going to get really in trouble coral Raisy. 338 00:20:44,685 --> 00:20:47,085 So maybe that's why Dennis Rader was telling these people, oh, 339 00:20:47,085 --> 00:20:48,105 I'm just going to rape you. 340 00:20:48,165 --> 00:20:51,105 Because at the time, apparently that was not a big deal or as 341 00:20:51,105 --> 00:20:52,575 not as bad as murdering them. 342 00:20:52,815 --> 00:20:55,095 But I was really confused a lot about Dennis Rader. 343 00:20:55,305 --> 00:20:57,705 Um, you know, I, I have questions along the way. 344 00:20:58,695 --> 00:20:59,295 Let's again. 345 00:20:59,295 --> 00:21:01,725 Sorry, go back to our first set of murders. 346 00:21:01,725 --> 00:21:06,225 Joseph Otero, Julio Terros Joseph junior and Josephine. 347 00:21:06,645 --> 00:21:09,795 So it sounds to me like Dennis Rader in his first foray. 348 00:21:09,825 --> 00:21:13,965 And by the way, this might've been his first set of murders, but he 349 00:21:13,965 --> 00:21:16,395 was very, very well-planned in this. 350 00:21:16,545 --> 00:21:19,995 He had, here's what he says that he used to do. 351 00:21:20,415 --> 00:21:24,465 He, because he spent quite a bit of time finding his art, his targets, 352 00:21:24,645 --> 00:21:28,365 and then he would find, spend quite a bit more time studying them. 353 00:21:28,485 --> 00:21:33,255 So he would, what he said he would do is he was, he would troll for 354 00:21:33,335 --> 00:21:36,135 a new victim or set of victims. 355 00:21:36,375 --> 00:21:40,275 And then he, once he determined who that would be or who they would be, he 356 00:21:40,305 --> 00:21:42,795 stalked them for a quite a period of time. 357 00:21:43,095 --> 00:21:46,245 He figured out how to get into their houses when they were 358 00:21:46,245 --> 00:21:47,655 home, who was going to be. 359 00:21:48,885 --> 00:21:52,845 And he made himself, um, you know, he planned around those events. 360 00:21:52,845 --> 00:21:54,165 So he was really good at it. 361 00:21:54,615 --> 00:22:00,975 So back to January 15th, 1974, these, this families, you know, in their house. 362 00:22:01,245 --> 00:22:03,855 Um, and again, Raider comes in. 363 00:22:04,365 --> 00:22:08,355 He's saying that he's only going to rape them or he's only gonna 364 00:22:08,535 --> 00:22:10,965 burglarize them actually just looking 365 00:22:10,965 --> 00:22:12,675 Brittney Sherman: for, he was like looking, he says he was 366 00:22:12,675 --> 00:22:16,095 looking for money and a car to get away because he was on one 367 00:22:16,095 --> 00:22:16,965 Sonia Meza-Leon: in criminal, on the road. 368 00:22:17,265 --> 00:22:17,565 Yeah. 369 00:22:17,565 --> 00:22:20,415 He loved to have this say, you know, this idea that he was 370 00:22:20,415 --> 00:22:22,005 all famous, which has bananas. 371 00:22:22,335 --> 00:22:25,845 Um, but that's somewhere something sort of consistent with his behaviors. 372 00:22:25,845 --> 00:22:29,055 I think she had a really like, his ego is huge. 373 00:22:29,745 --> 00:22:33,285 So here we have the entire family in the bedroom. 374 00:22:33,315 --> 00:22:38,325 Um, we will later know that they find Joseph, uh, the father 375 00:22:38,325 --> 00:22:40,245 and the mother in the bedroom. 376 00:22:40,635 --> 00:22:45,375 And what Dennis Rader does without getting into too much graphic detail is 377 00:22:45,405 --> 00:22:48,135 he puts a bag over Joseph Arturo's head. 378 00:22:48,615 --> 00:22:50,865 And while the other people are sitting there, right. 379 00:22:50,865 --> 00:22:52,515 We're all in the same room together. 380 00:22:52,515 --> 00:22:54,705 So clearly they could see what was happening. 381 00:22:55,095 --> 00:22:58,365 The daughter and the son were watching his parents like be murdered. 382 00:22:58,425 --> 00:22:59,055 Essentially. 383 00:22:59,115 --> 00:23:01,735 Brittney Sherman: It's important to know though he. 384 00:23:02,325 --> 00:23:07,544 Like his name would he bound all of the Otero family. 385 00:23:07,605 --> 00:23:10,605 He tied them up by their arms and legs behind them. 386 00:23:10,695 --> 00:23:12,105 So they couldn't fight back. 387 00:23:13,544 --> 00:23:13,935 Sonia Meza-Leon: Oh yeah. 388 00:23:13,965 --> 00:23:15,465 And he has he even. 389 00:23:16,365 --> 00:23:19,155 Brittney Sherman: He had a gun with him that he never had any intention 390 00:23:19,155 --> 00:23:23,175 of using, like you said, he w he didn't use guns in his murders. 391 00:23:23,175 --> 00:23:29,295 He had other means, uh, but he used the gun as intimidation to allow 392 00:23:29,295 --> 00:23:31,515 them to get the family to comply. 393 00:23:31,525 --> 00:23:33,585 So that way he could proceed with his crimes. 394 00:23:33,885 --> 00:23:37,725 A lot of people usually think of compliance as the best defense, 395 00:23:37,875 --> 00:23:42,225 because they believe that they will survive because that's what they are 396 00:23:42,225 --> 00:23:47,205 being told by the perpetrator where in most cases we ultimately find that 397 00:23:47,595 --> 00:23:50,145 compliance is actually the worst option. 398 00:23:50,415 --> 00:23:54,945 And most of the time it does not end well for the victims when they may have 399 00:23:54,945 --> 00:23:56,655 had other opportunities to fight back, 400 00:23:57,045 --> 00:23:58,275 Sonia Meza-Leon: especially with. 401 00:23:58,905 --> 00:24:00,165 You have a situation like this? 402 00:24:00,165 --> 00:24:03,254 Now, granted, there was, it was a very naive time. 403 00:24:03,254 --> 00:24:06,314 So I'm sure these people were hope we're believing them, but they had a lot 404 00:24:06,314 --> 00:24:10,365 at stake if they didn't and you know, what's weird is he rarely wore a mask. 405 00:24:10,605 --> 00:24:15,044 He which I also find really weird because here's a guy who was pretty 406 00:24:15,044 --> 00:24:18,074 well known in the, um, the town. 407 00:24:18,344 --> 00:24:22,304 And I don't know how big the town is, but I mean, to be involved in all the 408 00:24:22,304 --> 00:24:25,784 things that he was doing and to not wear a mask, I am shocked that people 409 00:24:25,784 --> 00:24:28,125 didn't, weren't able to identify him. 410 00:24:28,125 --> 00:24:31,935 But what everybody said was he's like a 5, 9, 5, 8 white 411 00:24:31,935 --> 00:24:33,645 guy with dark hair, big deal. 412 00:24:33,735 --> 00:24:36,764 Like, I mean, nothing interesting or out of the ordinary. 413 00:24:37,125 --> 00:24:39,465 Um, so really hard to track him down. 414 00:24:40,034 --> 00:24:40,274 Okay. 415 00:24:40,274 --> 00:24:45,615 So let's go back to Joseph Otero, Joseph Matera bag on his head, Dennis Raiders, 416 00:24:45,735 --> 00:24:49,754 centrally stuff, stuff, suffocating him, sitting there watching this guy. 417 00:24:50,504 --> 00:24:51,195 Die. 418 00:24:51,254 --> 00:24:52,814 That's what Dennis Rader liked to do. 419 00:24:52,844 --> 00:24:54,014 That's what got him off. 420 00:24:54,135 --> 00:24:59,024 He liked to watch the last breath come out of people's faces, whether 421 00:24:59,024 --> 00:25:04,274 it be a man, a woman or a child, and that's what, that's what got him off. 422 00:25:04,485 --> 00:25:06,344 That's why he masturbated to it. 423 00:25:06,645 --> 00:25:10,125 Um, and I'm assuming that it had something to do with him practicing 424 00:25:10,125 --> 00:25:13,155 autoerotic asphyxiation himself, but he knew what that felt like. 425 00:25:13,155 --> 00:25:15,915 And it got him to the, you know, all amped up or tweaked up. 426 00:25:16,004 --> 00:25:20,145 He called it teed up, I think is what he would refer to it as he was teed up. 427 00:25:20,145 --> 00:25:21,645 And he had to do something about it. 428 00:25:21,945 --> 00:25:26,024 Um, this guy, by the way, this fucker, he, I don't think there's a Pintu. 429 00:25:27,090 --> 00:25:30,870 Uh, w w bad enough for this guy, this guy, I think at the time, 430 00:25:30,870 --> 00:25:33,030 cause he's 10 consecutive licenses. 431 00:25:33,390 --> 00:25:38,280 Um, I mean, I would have said to death for sure, but I think at the time Kansas 432 00:25:38,280 --> 00:25:39,990 didn't have the death penalty in place. 433 00:25:40,380 --> 00:25:43,950 There are also some people who say that he murdered other people and he didn't tell 434 00:25:43,950 --> 00:25:47,130 the police about those people, because that would have put him around the time 435 00:25:47,130 --> 00:25:50,340 where Kansas did have the death penalty and he didn't want to disclose that. 436 00:25:50,670 --> 00:25:52,410 So all kinds of crazy. 437 00:25:53,850 --> 00:25:59,220 So, sorry, back to the here's this dad on the ground bag on his head suffocating. 438 00:25:59,670 --> 00:26:02,910 He passes out Dennis Rader, think this is a member. 439 00:26:02,920 --> 00:26:06,240 This is his first time that sort of enacting this on humans. 440 00:26:06,630 --> 00:26:08,400 And so Dennis Rader thinks he's died. 441 00:26:08,760 --> 00:26:10,740 So moving on, the fun is gone. 442 00:26:10,800 --> 00:26:13,590 He moves on to the wife, Juliet or Tara. 443 00:26:13,710 --> 00:26:15,240 Now again when remember 444 00:26:15,690 --> 00:26:18,870 Brittney Sherman: actually no, no, no, it was, it was reversed. 445 00:26:18,900 --> 00:26:22,440 He actually, he actually killed or thought he killed Julie 446 00:26:22,440 --> 00:26:24,300 first, before he attacked Joseph. 447 00:26:24,600 --> 00:26:24,930 And it was 448 00:26:24,930 --> 00:26:25,290 Sonia Meza-Leon: Julie. 449 00:26:27,345 --> 00:26:29,265 Well, both of them did multiple times. 450 00:26:29,295 --> 00:26:32,355 I think they came to over and over again because he just didn't 451 00:26:32,355 --> 00:26:35,715 know how much he had to, like, you know, just strangle them. 452 00:26:35,985 --> 00:26:39,615 Um, it was, I think, more than four, um, it sounded like, and I don't know who 453 00:26:39,615 --> 00:26:41,175 could attest to that except Dennis Rader. 454 00:26:41,175 --> 00:26:45,525 So, I mean, he's, he's telling his own story, but he struggled with it and he 455 00:26:45,525 --> 00:26:49,725 was, he admitted that his, he went back and forth between them multiple times. 456 00:26:49,905 --> 00:26:54,855 And he, and then I think what, and one time Joseph doTERRA came back to, he had 457 00:26:54,855 --> 00:26:56,475 bitten a hole through the plastic bag. 458 00:26:56,535 --> 00:27:00,765 So Dennis, Dennis Rader took off the plastic bag, put on a t-shirt and then 459 00:27:00,765 --> 00:27:02,025 put the plastic bag on top of that. 460 00:27:02,025 --> 00:27:03,195 So he couldn't bite through it. 461 00:27:03,735 --> 00:27:06,945 So they went back and forth with this quite a number of times, 462 00:27:07,095 --> 00:27:09,225 which must've been horrific again. 463 00:27:09,665 --> 00:27:10,785 It's awful horrible. 464 00:27:10,785 --> 00:27:11,745 Horrible. 465 00:27:12,195 --> 00:27:17,025 So again, so those have been Julie either dead or unconscious, but pretty 466 00:27:17,025 --> 00:27:20,175 sure dead, um, hard to tell because I think they were there, you know, 467 00:27:20,505 --> 00:27:23,055 I don't know how long they were in the house before someone found them. 468 00:27:23,055 --> 00:27:27,555 Probably not that long because the kid who found them was, um, I did 10th grade. 469 00:27:27,555 --> 00:27:28,965 So he would've been staying there. 470 00:27:28,965 --> 00:27:29,505 Certainly. 471 00:27:30,075 --> 00:27:37,185 Um, again, these Joseph and Julia, um, you know, suffocated, strangled, 472 00:27:38,699 --> 00:27:42,840 Now that we have those two folks, either dead or incapacitated. 473 00:27:43,229 --> 00:27:46,290 He turns to the Joseph Jr. 474 00:27:46,500 --> 00:27:48,689 Who is nine years old. 475 00:27:49,229 --> 00:27:53,159 He takes Joseph the nine-year-old into another bedroom. 476 00:27:53,669 --> 00:27:56,070 He ties him. 477 00:27:56,070 --> 00:28:01,260 Or if he's not already tied, he, it appears that they think he laid 478 00:28:01,260 --> 00:28:03,389 this young man, this little boy. 479 00:28:03,780 --> 00:28:07,409 Um, and this little boy was conscious and I don't know if it was mouth was 480 00:28:07,409 --> 00:28:10,110 gagged or not, but he's eyes were open. 481 00:28:10,110 --> 00:28:13,500 He was aware Dennis Rader could see the terror in his face. 482 00:28:13,919 --> 00:28:17,850 And I just can't find them how you would do that to a child, not only to dentistry. 483 00:28:18,495 --> 00:28:22,755 Do that to a child, but he had got off on watching the blast 484 00:28:22,755 --> 00:28:24,075 breath come out of Joseph. 485 00:28:24,345 --> 00:28:29,025 And he, the, like I said, the police have some thought that cause there 486 00:28:29,025 --> 00:28:33,855 are there, I guess chair marks in the carpet that he pretty much put the chair 487 00:28:33,885 --> 00:28:38,655 on over Joseph or around him or near him and just sat right there and look 488 00:28:38,655 --> 00:28:40,155 straight in his face while he died. 489 00:28:40,425 --> 00:28:42,645 Oh, what's so awful. 490 00:28:43,245 --> 00:28:43,605 Yeah. 491 00:28:43,725 --> 00:28:46,305 But if you're trying to get, if that's what you get off on, that's what you 492 00:28:46,305 --> 00:28:48,795 want to see what I don't understand. 493 00:28:48,875 --> 00:28:52,845 And it sounds to me like that most of these people had a 494 00:28:52,845 --> 00:28:54,975 t-shirt on over the plastic bag. 495 00:28:55,335 --> 00:29:00,015 So that's a little conflicting because if you're, what are you seeing, if you can't 496 00:29:00,015 --> 00:29:02,865 see their face, when they're dying, you just waiting for them to stop breathing. 497 00:29:03,075 --> 00:29:05,085 And then, you know, that's a little different than looking 498 00:29:05,085 --> 00:29:06,615 someone in the eyes as they die. 499 00:29:06,915 --> 00:29:07,865 So my thought is. 500 00:29:08,545 --> 00:29:09,025 I don't know. 501 00:29:09,125 --> 00:29:12,625 I don't remember what Dennis Rader says, or if he's saying it accurately, 502 00:29:12,625 --> 00:29:15,925 but I'm not sure if he ever discloses, which he puts on first with Joseph. 503 00:29:15,925 --> 00:29:18,865 He definitely said that he put the t-shirt on first because he didn't want 504 00:29:18,865 --> 00:29:20,665 them to buy through the plastic anymore. 505 00:29:22,285 --> 00:29:24,055 That's just, that's all he kept coming back to life. 506 00:29:25,135 --> 00:29:25,555 Uh, 507 00:29:26,065 --> 00:29:28,015 Brittney Sherman: well, yeah, I mean, yeah, sure. 508 00:29:28,045 --> 00:29:31,585 But while, well, I, I didn't hear anything about the t-shirts actually, 509 00:29:31,935 --> 00:29:35,995 um, certainly about the, you know, the other stuff he discussed, but 510 00:29:36,025 --> 00:29:37,315 I didn't know about the t-shirts. 511 00:29:37,315 --> 00:29:40,465 So that's, that's brand new information that is 512 00:29:40,465 --> 00:29:41,125 Sonia Meza-Leon: more disturbing. 513 00:29:42,265 --> 00:29:43,405 Oh, rebel. 514 00:29:43,795 --> 00:29:47,305 Um, Brittany, do you want to tell us about, so again, we know that 515 00:29:47,305 --> 00:29:48,775 little Joe Little Joseph died. 516 00:29:48,775 --> 00:29:52,405 Do you want to tell us about Josephine the last that's the only members. 517 00:29:54,195 --> 00:29:54,645 Brittney Sherman: Yeah. 518 00:29:54,675 --> 00:30:01,245 So, so Josephine to me, as you said, the Otero family is probably for you. 519 00:30:01,275 --> 00:30:03,315 The worst one for me, it's also the worst one. 520 00:30:03,525 --> 00:30:09,315 And it Josephine in particular because I just found this absolutely disgusting. 521 00:30:09,465 --> 00:30:20,175 So after Joseph, Julie and Joe Jr, have all been killed, he takes Josephine into 522 00:30:20,175 --> 00:30:29,235 the basement with her arms and legs tied up behind her and hangs her from a pipe. 523 00:30:30,495 --> 00:30:37,095 And she is strangled and dies hanging from a pipe while he. 524 00:30:37,995 --> 00:30:41,385 Masturbating next to her watching her die. 525 00:30:41,595 --> 00:30:45,314 And semen was actually found in the basement next to her 526 00:30:45,314 --> 00:30:46,935 body at the crime scene. 527 00:30:47,235 --> 00:30:49,395 Now we said he never raped anyone. 528 00:30:49,395 --> 00:30:54,945 He never sexually assaulted anyone, but he left DNA, which at the time was not 529 00:30:54,945 --> 00:31:00,885 known, but he left his mark and showed how severely, sexually driven he was. 530 00:31:01,125 --> 00:31:07,455 And to an 11 year old girl, this is the part that would, this is the first one. 531 00:31:07,455 --> 00:31:11,054 Well, I guess she's the fourth one, but the first crime for her spree. 532 00:31:11,745 --> 00:31:15,435 And it's, it's the most horrendous to me because like you said, not 533 00:31:15,435 --> 00:31:22,034 only is it killing children, it's getting sexual satisfaction out of 534 00:31:22,185 --> 00:31:30,764 doing so this, this man, who's a stand up citizen member of the church. 535 00:31:31,605 --> 00:31:35,415 Uh, at the time his wife was pregnant with his first daughter, Carrie. 536 00:31:35,834 --> 00:31:41,044 And like, he was this amazing family man who just, it was, I, I 537 00:31:41,084 --> 00:31:48,195 was so disgusted and the left is like I said, he left his evidence. 538 00:31:48,495 --> 00:31:49,754 He didn't really clean up. 539 00:31:49,995 --> 00:31:57,645 He, he, uh, uh, wanted it to be a disgusting scene that officers would 540 00:31:57,645 --> 00:31:59,834 find that would make the press. 541 00:32:00,165 --> 00:32:06,375 And, uh, it would be and unique a unique crime that he could take credit for. 542 00:32:09,405 --> 00:32:09,794 Sonia Meza-Leon: Yeah. 543 00:32:09,885 --> 00:32:11,595 So this is, this is the beginning. 544 00:32:11,625 --> 00:32:13,784 This is the beginning of, you know, BTK. 545 00:32:14,685 --> 00:32:15,615 Um, all right. 546 00:32:15,645 --> 00:32:22,754 So moving on to our next murder slash victims, more than one. 547 00:32:23,775 --> 00:32:28,065 Brittney Sherman: I think before we move on to the next victim, we have to talk 548 00:32:28,065 --> 00:32:35,775 about his first d'Elegance in reaching out for fame and taunting the police. 549 00:32:36,195 --> 00:32:41,145 Because after the Hewitt, he was actually, I believe seen leaving the 550 00:32:41,145 --> 00:32:46,245 house, but the person that saw him could not give an accurate description. 551 00:32:46,845 --> 00:32:50,985 And since he didn't feel like he was giving, getting enough press, 552 00:32:51,315 --> 00:32:58,725 he sent a letter to the television station, K a K E in Kansas, uh, 553 00:32:58,785 --> 00:33:00,765 admitting that he was responsible. 554 00:33:00,945 --> 00:33:06,855 And again, this guy not very intelligent, always had poor spelling and grammar. 555 00:33:07,215 --> 00:33:14,565 He wrote that he wants to be known as BTK for bind, torture, kill, 556 00:33:15,165 --> 00:33:16,965 except he didn't even spell it. 557 00:33:16,965 --> 00:33:17,445 Right. 558 00:33:18,285 --> 00:33:22,275 He grew up bind Totour you left out the R. 559 00:33:23,024 --> 00:33:23,534 Kill. 560 00:33:24,165 --> 00:33:30,915 So this guy was, I just thought it was, it was an early sign of what seemed 561 00:33:30,915 --> 00:33:37,514 to be a lot of mix ups, mess ups of things that I feel like you almost 562 00:33:37,514 --> 00:33:39,344 should have been caught sooner for. 563 00:33:39,794 --> 00:33:42,044 And then that didn't give him enough press. 564 00:33:42,284 --> 00:33:49,514 So he called a news editor at a newspaper and said, Hey, go to the library because 565 00:33:49,574 --> 00:33:53,834 I left a letter in engineering book and he was hoping someone would find it. 566 00:33:54,645 --> 00:33:59,715 And so this guy went and in the, uh, letter, he again, claims 567 00:33:59,715 --> 00:34:01,215 responsibility for the murders. 568 00:34:01,245 --> 00:34:06,615 And he said, you will know me as bind them, torture them, kill them. 569 00:34:07,004 --> 00:34:08,534 B T K. 570 00:34:10,754 --> 00:34:16,784 Sonia Meza-Leon: But L well, let's go back a minute because he, that letter was left 571 00:34:16,875 --> 00:34:19,875 and, well, I don't know when it was left, but he called them and let them know that 572 00:34:19,875 --> 00:34:22,194 letter was available in October of 1974. 573 00:34:22,214 --> 00:34:22,424 Right. 574 00:34:22,605 --> 00:34:27,014 But he actually had killed someone in April of 1974. 575 00:34:27,105 --> 00:34:33,764 So he killed another person and damaged her brother before the letter. 576 00:34:33,944 --> 00:34:36,495 And I think that's where he got frustrated was that there were 577 00:34:36,495 --> 00:34:38,504 two sets of, you know, crimes. 578 00:34:38,835 --> 00:34:42,045 And that's where he's like, what do I got to do to get some attention around it? 579 00:34:42,045 --> 00:34:42,225 Yeah. 580 00:34:42,284 --> 00:34:42,645 Good point. 581 00:34:42,645 --> 00:34:44,145 So that's where we start. 582 00:34:44,174 --> 00:34:48,015 That's where we talked about Kathryn Bright and her brother, Kevin Bright, 583 00:34:48,435 --> 00:34:53,205 who is a survivor of BTK and who has been on multiple interviews 584 00:34:53,205 --> 00:34:54,645 talking about what he went through. 585 00:34:54,884 --> 00:34:57,134 He saw the guy, he saw Dennis Rader. 586 00:34:57,404 --> 00:34:58,875 He saw his sister die. 587 00:34:59,234 --> 00:35:00,254 Um, he. 588 00:35:01,110 --> 00:35:03,870 Came back to live multiple times and somehow ran out. 589 00:35:04,320 --> 00:35:06,810 Um, but let's talk a little bit about what, what happened with 590 00:35:06,810 --> 00:35:08,220 Kathryn Bright in her home? 591 00:35:08,340 --> 00:35:14,100 Kathryn Bright was Burt murdered in 1974, April 4th, 1974. 592 00:35:14,460 --> 00:35:15,510 She was 21. 593 00:35:15,540 --> 00:35:20,730 Her brother, Kevin was with her and he was 19, uh, essentially done. 594 00:35:20,730 --> 00:35:25,200 And Ray, Dennis Rader broke into the house, um, from the front porch 595 00:35:25,230 --> 00:35:27,870 and he hid in the bedroom, which is what he would typically do. 596 00:35:27,870 --> 00:35:34,410 And sometimes for quite a long time, um, she arrived home and Raider wasn't 597 00:35:34,410 --> 00:35:36,330 expecting her brother to be there too. 598 00:35:36,630 --> 00:35:40,530 So of course he came rushing into the room, you know, gun 599 00:35:40,530 --> 00:35:42,480 out, um, the whole nine yards. 600 00:35:42,860 --> 00:35:45,030 He told them the same shenanigans, right? 601 00:35:45,030 --> 00:35:46,350 He was at war criminal. 602 00:35:46,350 --> 00:35:47,590 I just needed to get out of there. 603 00:35:47,620 --> 00:35:48,540 He needed money. 604 00:35:48,870 --> 00:35:51,600 He forced the two into the bedroom. 605 00:35:51,870 --> 00:35:54,810 Um, they tied each other up essentially. 606 00:35:55,170 --> 00:36:00,120 And then, um, He took Kevin into the other bedroom. 607 00:36:00,150 --> 00:36:02,100 Now this poor guy is still alive. 608 00:36:02,100 --> 00:36:04,260 Like, oh my God talking about this. 609 00:36:04,800 --> 00:36:08,160 Um, they takes Kevin to the other room so that he can have his way with Catherine, 610 00:36:08,880 --> 00:36:14,370 Kevin breaks out of the, the cord or the, whatever he was tied up with. 611 00:36:14,670 --> 00:36:19,020 He runs in there to the other room to try and help assist her in Dennis Rader shoots 612 00:36:19,020 --> 00:36:21,840 him right in the face, which is crazy. 613 00:36:22,050 --> 00:36:22,230 Yeah. 614 00:36:23,010 --> 00:36:24,810 Brittney Sherman: It doesn't like to use guns, but again, he 615 00:36:24,810 --> 00:36:26,190 was using it as intimidation. 616 00:36:27,600 --> 00:36:28,890 Sonia Meza-Leon: Well, it wasn't intimidation. 617 00:36:29,760 --> 00:36:33,330 He needed, he needed to get his brother away from the Kevin Bright away from, 618 00:36:33,330 --> 00:36:36,750 because that was in a way they were, I mean, he was going to be without man. 619 00:36:37,230 --> 00:36:37,680 Brittney Sherman: Totally. 620 00:36:37,710 --> 00:36:41,070 But I think that, I don't think he had any intention of using the gun. 621 00:36:41,070 --> 00:36:44,010 It was meant as intimidation, but he ha he was forced into a position. 622 00:36:44,880 --> 00:36:47,790 She had to use it, but that's not how he got satisfaction out of. 623 00:36:48,150 --> 00:36:48,480 Yeah, 624 00:36:48,480 --> 00:36:49,350 Sonia Meza-Leon: no, definitely. 625 00:36:49,350 --> 00:36:50,850 He was only using it. 626 00:36:50,880 --> 00:36:52,800 I mean, he didn't expect Kevin to be there. 627 00:36:53,280 --> 00:36:56,880 Um, that's, what's crazy about it, you know, so he was thrown off by this. 628 00:36:57,270 --> 00:37:00,780 Um, so of course he shoots Kevin in the head. 629 00:37:00,780 --> 00:37:03,000 Kevin goes down, he thinks he's dead. 630 00:37:03,240 --> 00:37:05,280 Apparently Kevin's not dead. 631 00:37:05,580 --> 00:37:09,690 Um, Catherine, um, you know, also put up a really big fight 632 00:37:09,750 --> 00:37:12,300 and he ultimately strangled her. 633 00:37:12,600 --> 00:37:18,270 Um, he, but it didn't work. 634 00:37:18,570 --> 00:37:22,320 He, I don't know if it was because she was so young, but you know, 635 00:37:22,320 --> 00:37:26,010 he, he, he couldn't control her as much as he wanted to. 636 00:37:26,280 --> 00:37:30,480 So he, um, ultimately ended up stabbing her to death, but her 637 00:37:30,480 --> 00:37:34,200 and her brother were very, very, very challenging for Dennis Rader. 638 00:37:34,410 --> 00:37:40,440 I mean, it was, um, not an easy, um, you know, not an easy murder for sure. 639 00:37:40,560 --> 00:37:40,620 Yeah. 640 00:37:41,625 --> 00:37:47,235 Maybe at, you know, in, remember Kevin Bright runs out, he escapes, he there's 641 00:37:47,235 --> 00:37:48,645 a lot of conversations with him. 642 00:37:48,675 --> 00:37:49,065 Yeah. 643 00:37:49,305 --> 00:37:50,505 There's tons of interviews. 644 00:37:51,015 --> 00:37:53,565 I have a feeling that's why Dennis Dennis Rader stopped. 645 00:37:53,835 --> 00:37:58,125 And then his next murder wouldn't occur until 1977, because he's probably scared 646 00:37:58,125 --> 00:38:01,995 that this guy who had seen him right in his face, like literally standing there 647 00:38:01,995 --> 00:38:05,535 with him, talking to him, you know, there's a guy out there who can, you 648 00:38:05,535 --> 00:38:07,875 know, who can essentially identify him. 649 00:38:08,175 --> 00:38:10,935 I have a feeling that Dennis Rader stopped or waited because of that. 650 00:38:11,085 --> 00:38:15,165 And then he got his courage up and he couldn't control his factor X and 651 00:38:15,165 --> 00:38:16,605 that's when he went back out again. 652 00:38:16,965 --> 00:38:21,195 But, um, yeah, Catherine, Catherine Bright, uh, put up a heck of a fight and 653 00:38:21,225 --> 00:38:23,565 ultimately that one didn't go as well. 654 00:38:23,565 --> 00:38:25,905 As I know, I think that Dennis Rader had expected. 655 00:38:26,145 --> 00:38:28,305 I don't know if he masturbated. 656 00:38:29,790 --> 00:38:33,779 At that scene or not, but it sounds to me like it was quite a debacle in, you 657 00:38:33,779 --> 00:38:36,720 know, he was just trying to get out of there and to think that he would 658 00:38:36,720 --> 00:38:39,660 have someone out there running around who knew what he looked like, but when 659 00:38:39,660 --> 00:38:42,240 they asked the guy multiple times and he was shot in the face, by the way. 660 00:38:42,390 --> 00:38:44,700 So the police really couldn't believe and they didn't know. 661 00:38:44,879 --> 00:38:47,069 And, and Kevin couldn't really say either. 662 00:38:47,250 --> 00:38:51,810 He was like, okay, 5, 8, 5, 9 white guy, you know, I mean, 663 00:38:51,810 --> 00:38:54,149 what looks like everybody else? 664 00:38:54,359 --> 00:38:56,609 You know, how do you, how do you pin that down? 665 00:38:56,609 --> 00:38:57,870 I mean, it was, it was tough. 666 00:38:58,200 --> 00:39:00,089 So that, that one's a, that one's a tough one. 667 00:39:00,089 --> 00:39:02,730 And I think it's really interesting to watch some of those, um, those 668 00:39:02,730 --> 00:39:06,720 interviews, Kevin Bryant was on Larry King live and he talked a bit 669 00:39:06,720 --> 00:39:09,299 about how that, how it went down. 670 00:39:09,540 --> 00:39:13,500 And if I'm not mistaken with the exception of some of the children who witnessed 671 00:39:13,500 --> 00:39:17,759 the murder of their parents in the later murders, Kevin Brightspot any one of 672 00:39:17,759 --> 00:39:20,339 the only witnesses that's still alive. 673 00:39:21,600 --> 00:39:25,020 So, uh, two more murders down a horrible. 674 00:39:25,020 --> 00:39:26,009 So now, well, 675 00:39:26,040 --> 00:39:27,190 Brittney Sherman: or, sorry, sorry. 676 00:39:27,270 --> 00:39:27,770 One more. 677 00:39:28,529 --> 00:39:28,950 Yes. 678 00:39:28,950 --> 00:39:29,190 Yeah. 679 00:39:29,250 --> 00:39:31,520 So, so we're at five murders and then once 680 00:39:31,520 --> 00:39:32,069 Sonia Meza-Leon: survivor. 681 00:39:32,460 --> 00:39:39,330 So moving on to 1977, this is when, for some reason in there, uh, Dennis 682 00:39:39,330 --> 00:39:40,710 Rader takes a break, not Brittany. 683 00:39:40,710 --> 00:39:41,549 You had said. 684 00:39:42,900 --> 00:39:45,960 You had said that his daughter, he, his wife was pregnant 685 00:39:45,960 --> 00:39:48,210 with his daughter was at 1974. 686 00:39:48,390 --> 00:39:48,960 Exactly. 687 00:39:48,960 --> 00:39:53,250 Brittney Sherman: So after actually he found out that his wife was pregnant. 688 00:39:53,580 --> 00:39:57,210 Um, I think she was so I know she was pregnant during the Otero murders. 689 00:39:57,210 --> 00:39:59,910 I don't know if he knew she was pregnant during your Terra martyrs, 690 00:40:00,150 --> 00:40:04,740 but he certainly found out at minimum after the Catherine Bright murder. 691 00:40:05,160 --> 00:40:07,530 And he was so excited to be a father. 692 00:40:07,770 --> 00:40:12,150 Like he, as I said before, like, I feel like he had this like empty, nervous 693 00:40:12,150 --> 00:40:15,810 energy that drove him to commit crimes when he didn't have anything else to do. 694 00:40:16,140 --> 00:40:18,390 But he was so excited to be a father. 695 00:40:18,390 --> 00:40:20,430 He decided I got to turn my life around. 696 00:40:20,610 --> 00:40:21,930 I got, gotta be a good dad. 697 00:40:22,380 --> 00:40:27,180 And so he took like three years off, like you said, he so BTK. 698 00:40:27,540 --> 00:40:29,009 He was so proud. 699 00:40:29,009 --> 00:40:31,050 He left all of this evidence. 700 00:40:31,230 --> 00:40:35,340 He claimed excitement for like, he, he claimed responsibility for it. 701 00:40:35,670 --> 00:40:36,570 And one of the notarized. 702 00:40:37,305 --> 00:40:40,214 But then he wouldn't dormant for three years because he was so 703 00:40:40,214 --> 00:40:42,015 dedicated to be a doting father. 704 00:40:42,375 --> 00:40:47,955 But ultimately that factor X crept back up and he couldn't suppress it anymore. 705 00:40:48,075 --> 00:40:52,365 He even referred to it as a monster or his evil. 706 00:40:52,725 --> 00:41:00,315 And so 1977 BTK strikes again against Shirley violin. 707 00:41:00,345 --> 00:41:01,335 I think that's how you pronounce her name. 708 00:41:01,335 --> 00:41:01,875 Sonia Meza-Leon: I'm not sure. 709 00:41:02,024 --> 00:41:02,265 Yep. 710 00:41:02,295 --> 00:41:02,685 That's right. 711 00:41:02,685 --> 00:41:03,585 Shirley violin. 712 00:41:03,825 --> 00:41:04,274 So 713 00:41:05,085 --> 00:41:08,085 Brittney Sherman: here's another instance of a young child. 714 00:41:08,295 --> 00:41:13,455 Child's not a victim here, but he uses the child essentially to bait the mother. 715 00:41:13,754 --> 00:41:15,225 He's trolling apart. 716 00:41:15,254 --> 00:41:15,285 I 717 00:41:15,285 --> 00:41:16,245 Sonia Meza-Leon: think he's a victim. 718 00:41:16,245 --> 00:41:17,234 You don't think he's a victim? 719 00:41:17,234 --> 00:41:17,924 Well, I mean, 720 00:41:18,464 --> 00:41:23,444 Brittney Sherman: he's totally a victim, but he's not, he's he, wasn't 721 00:41:23,444 --> 00:41:27,884 a victim of violence set the word. 722 00:41:27,915 --> 00:41:28,935 I don't even know the word to say 723 00:41:29,774 --> 00:41:30,585 Sonia Meza-Leon: he's a surplus. 724 00:41:30,585 --> 00:41:31,305 I want to survive. 725 00:41:32,475 --> 00:41:33,915 Uh, yeah, he was held hostage. 726 00:41:33,945 --> 00:41:35,055 I mean, he 727 00:41:35,055 --> 00:41:36,135 Brittney Sherman: was, he was held hostage. 728 00:41:36,255 --> 00:41:39,825 So this, this little kid, you know, he's, he's playing at the park 729 00:41:40,185 --> 00:41:48,705 and as we always say, and totally true stranger danger, uh, Mr. 730 00:41:48,705 --> 00:41:53,745 Raider comes up to this kid and shows him a picture of his wife and kids 731 00:41:53,745 --> 00:41:55,395 and says, do you recognize them? 732 00:41:55,965 --> 00:41:58,755 Uh, and the kid is like, Nope, no I don't. 733 00:41:59,025 --> 00:42:05,025 And I think what Raider was doing was trying to ultimately see this kid 734 00:42:05,055 --> 00:42:08,265 and, uh, follow him to his mother. 735 00:42:08,595 --> 00:42:13,245 Well, he never found the mother, so he just kept on kind of stalking 736 00:42:13,275 --> 00:42:16,785 the kid and the kid goes home. 737 00:42:17,475 --> 00:42:19,605 Raider takes his time. 738 00:42:19,905 --> 00:42:25,305 He's, he's very good at stalking women because in the three years 739 00:42:25,785 --> 00:42:29,985 that he kind of took his break, even though he wasn't violent, he. 740 00:42:30,405 --> 00:42:33,825 I was following women and stalking them. 741 00:42:34,035 --> 00:42:37,485 So he's watching this woman from the streets. 742 00:42:37,485 --> 00:42:41,715 He's watching this kid, he decides he's going to take his chance. 743 00:42:41,925 --> 00:42:44,715 So he goes and knocks on the door, the kid answers. 744 00:42:44,715 --> 00:42:47,205 And then he's essentially like, Hey, you remember me? 745 00:42:47,205 --> 00:42:48,855 I showed you those pictures. 746 00:42:49,125 --> 00:42:53,055 Well, I'm actually a detective and I need to talk to your mom. 747 00:42:54,015 --> 00:42:56,745 Sonia Meza-Leon: So, so you know, what's interesting about this kid. 748 00:42:57,185 --> 00:42:57,975 How old is this kid? 749 00:42:57,975 --> 00:42:58,365 Brittany? 750 00:42:58,395 --> 00:42:59,535 Six years old, I believe. 751 00:43:00,495 --> 00:43:00,855 Yep. 752 00:43:01,005 --> 00:43:01,575 He's little. 753 00:43:01,575 --> 00:43:02,355 He's a little boy. 754 00:43:02,355 --> 00:43:02,955 He's a little kid. 755 00:43:03,045 --> 00:43:05,685 There were three, there were three kids in the house at the time 756 00:43:05,685 --> 00:43:07,515 that Shirley Vian was killed. 757 00:43:08,385 --> 00:43:10,125 It's so awful. 758 00:43:11,235 --> 00:43:15,225 And the kid who, the kid, uh, they enter, I saw an interview with this kid, the 759 00:43:15,225 --> 00:43:16,815 six year old kid, who's now grown up. 760 00:43:17,505 --> 00:43:20,985 He saw everything and he blamed himself as an adult. 761 00:43:21,345 --> 00:43:22,635 Brittney Sherman: I mean, he's six years old. 762 00:43:22,635 --> 00:43:23,865 There's nothing he could have done. 763 00:43:25,095 --> 00:43:30,135 He again, he had his gun that he brought for intimidation. 764 00:43:30,585 --> 00:43:35,685 He forced the three kids into the bathroom and locked them in the bathroom. 765 00:43:36,315 --> 00:43:43,365 Uh, Ben, while he attacked their mother, uh, he told her that he was going to 766 00:43:43,365 --> 00:43:47,025 rape her, uh, and, but not kill her. 767 00:43:47,325 --> 00:43:50,835 And so she again, seemed to be compliant. 768 00:43:51,315 --> 00:43:57,495 Uh, they even smoked a cigarette together before he, she let him, well, 769 00:43:57,495 --> 00:43:59,595 she believed was letting him rape her. 770 00:44:00,075 --> 00:44:03,375 Uh, but of course he bound her. 771 00:44:03,465 --> 00:44:08,235 He put a cord around her neck and strangled her and then 772 00:44:08,745 --> 00:44:11,055 ejaculated into her panties. 773 00:44:12,315 --> 00:44:13,305 Sonia Meza-Leon: So hold on a second. 774 00:44:13,695 --> 00:44:18,525 So surely violin is sitting, I mean, who said that he, they 775 00:44:18,525 --> 00:44:19,365 smoked a cigarette together. 776 00:44:20,505 --> 00:44:21,225 I believe he did. 777 00:44:21,225 --> 00:44:22,155 Yeah, obviously. 778 00:44:22,395 --> 00:44:22,755 Yeah. 779 00:44:22,875 --> 00:44:23,475 Right, right. 780 00:44:23,835 --> 00:44:25,815 I can't imagine that. 781 00:44:25,875 --> 00:44:26,805 I'm like, what. 782 00:44:27,585 --> 00:44:28,845 I mean, I guess 783 00:44:29,035 --> 00:44:33,464 Brittney Sherman: I, well, I know, but like, if, again, I mean, I think these, 784 00:44:33,555 --> 00:44:39,225 I think these people unfortunately are thinking, okay, if I comply, I'll be okay. 785 00:44:39,674 --> 00:44:42,585 And so this woman is thinking my kids are in the bathroom. 786 00:44:42,915 --> 00:44:46,605 As long as they stay safe, I'll be compliant with this man, 787 00:44:46,875 --> 00:44:49,214 but he's not going to kill me. 788 00:44:49,515 --> 00:44:50,895 Of course we know that's not what happened. 789 00:44:51,075 --> 00:44:55,634 I'm just trying to, I'm trying to get in the mind of the victim to 790 00:44:55,634 --> 00:44:57,225 just think why they would come. 791 00:44:57,285 --> 00:44:58,915 They would work in the way that they. 792 00:45:00,035 --> 00:45:04,295 Sonia Meza-Leon: I probably thinking that, you know, doing whatever she 793 00:45:04,295 --> 00:45:07,145 could to make sure kids are safe, who were locked in a bathroom and 794 00:45:07,595 --> 00:45:10,865 something happens to her, then he's probably going to hurt them as well. 795 00:45:11,015 --> 00:45:13,055 The other thing is he doesn't have a mask on again. 796 00:45:13,055 --> 00:45:16,685 So, you know, the likelihood of her letting him go, yeah, the 797 00:45:16,685 --> 00:45:19,895 likelihood of her letting you know him letting her go, it's pretty slim. 798 00:45:20,045 --> 00:45:23,375 But I guess she's not thinking in those terms, even though you've had. 799 00:45:24,165 --> 00:45:25,785 Previous murders happen. 800 00:45:26,085 --> 00:45:28,305 And, and I'm assuming people remember that those 801 00:45:28,305 --> 00:45:28,995 Brittney Sherman: were three years. 802 00:45:29,115 --> 00:45:30,615 Those were three years ago now. 803 00:45:30,645 --> 00:45:35,025 So you kind of think that if you're living in that time, it's a little bit forgotten. 804 00:45:35,295 --> 00:45:38,535 You think that it's moved on it can't, it can't be the same 805 00:45:38,535 --> 00:45:39,975 Sonia Meza-Leon: thing, I guess. 806 00:45:40,065 --> 00:45:42,075 I mean, I just, I don't know. 807 00:45:42,105 --> 00:45:43,095 I would be on alert. 808 00:45:43,125 --> 00:45:45,345 I mean, they're in Wichita, Kansas. 809 00:45:45,735 --> 00:45:50,325 I mean, I, to, I apparently before this, there was very little crime 810 00:45:50,325 --> 00:45:54,645 or very little, um, you know, murder happening in which doc, Kansas. 811 00:45:54,855 --> 00:45:59,565 So all of a sudden it amped up like for, you know, three years in the seventies, 812 00:45:59,925 --> 00:46:02,685 I'm surprised, especially at the extent that which the kids were killed. 813 00:46:03,495 --> 00:46:07,800 Um, but you know, cause at that point they were like, The it's not just 814 00:46:07,800 --> 00:46:09,480 women, it's kids, it's a free for all. 815 00:46:09,480 --> 00:46:12,720 It could be men as well, back to Shirley VN. 816 00:46:12,960 --> 00:46:15,090 So she has a cigarette. 817 00:46:15,420 --> 00:46:16,800 They're doing whatever. 818 00:46:17,190 --> 00:46:22,290 Um, you know, as you said, he ejaculated into some panties, 819 00:46:22,290 --> 00:46:24,270 but didn't officially rape her. 820 00:46:24,690 --> 00:46:29,340 Um, and then the kids somehow, or another, there was an eight 821 00:46:29,340 --> 00:46:31,410 year old, a six year old. 822 00:46:31,410 --> 00:46:33,570 And what a younger kid, I 823 00:46:33,570 --> 00:46:36,150 Brittney Sherman: think, I think the other child was younger. 824 00:46:36,210 --> 00:46:37,890 Sonia Meza-Leon: These kids smart. 825 00:46:37,920 --> 00:46:40,740 Well, first off they could see out the door, the door wasn't all the way. 826 00:46:40,740 --> 00:46:42,000 Shut the guy. 827 00:46:43,005 --> 00:46:47,565 Demonstrator tied it shut so they could pull it a bit open and they did, and 828 00:46:47,565 --> 00:46:49,005 they watch their mother be killed. 829 00:46:49,424 --> 00:46:51,734 Um, then of course I'm sure that terrified them. 830 00:46:51,734 --> 00:46:55,035 So they broke the bathroom window out and they were able to escape. 831 00:46:55,214 --> 00:46:58,575 So now we've got four people who could identify Dennis Rader. 832 00:46:58,935 --> 00:47:02,234 A couple of, of three of them are children, but still, you know, you've 833 00:47:02,234 --> 00:47:04,944 got, you've got people and they were able to interview these poor kids and, and 834 00:47:05,115 --> 00:47:06,734 I'm sure gave them a lot of counseling. 835 00:47:06,734 --> 00:47:10,214 I mean, it must've been horrific because I think she was a single mother. 836 00:47:10,214 --> 00:47:12,765 So I don't know where these kids went after she died, but you know, 837 00:47:12,765 --> 00:47:14,265 this, this turned her life around. 838 00:47:14,714 --> 00:47:15,015 I don't 839 00:47:15,015 --> 00:47:15,134 Brittney Sherman: know. 840 00:47:15,495 --> 00:47:17,265 I don't know if there's anything more traumatic that you could 841 00:47:17,265 --> 00:47:18,375 ever experience in your life. 842 00:47:18,404 --> 00:47:19,665 Of course, it's life around. 843 00:47:19,685 --> 00:47:20,865 I mean, it's unreal. 844 00:47:21,884 --> 00:47:24,464 Sonia Meza-Leon: Um, especially if this guy harbors the guilt 845 00:47:24,464 --> 00:47:26,365 for this, because that's 846 00:47:26,415 --> 00:47:27,015 Brittney Sherman: so tragic. 847 00:47:28,035 --> 00:47:35,565 So later in 1977, again, he is, uh, he can't control his factor X anymore. 848 00:47:35,955 --> 00:47:41,654 So he decides to move in on one of the many women that he was 849 00:47:41,654 --> 00:47:47,384 stalking and he begins to have an obsession with Nancy Fox. 850 00:47:48,435 --> 00:47:54,855 So like many times you see in scary home invasion movies that are terrifying, 851 00:47:55,395 --> 00:47:57,465 the criminal cuts the phone line. 852 00:47:57,795 --> 00:48:03,555 The beginning of the nut of nightmares for generations caused by horror movies. 853 00:48:04,575 --> 00:48:12,225 He broke into her duplex and we did her there for a while 854 00:48:12,345 --> 00:48:13,424 for her to get home from work. 855 00:48:15,165 --> 00:48:16,875 He brought in his gun. 856 00:48:17,715 --> 00:48:24,345 He told her, which is oddly, I think kind of true that he had a sexual dysfunction. 857 00:48:25,440 --> 00:48:29,460 And the only way to fix it was to rape her. 858 00:48:29,520 --> 00:48:31,350 Now that part is crazy. 859 00:48:31,440 --> 00:48:32,760 Of course, that's ridiculous. 860 00:48:33,120 --> 00:48:38,010 But if we jump back to when he served his time in the Vietnam war, he 861 00:48:38,070 --> 00:48:44,730 actually hired a sex coach because he had, I dunno if it was true sexual 862 00:48:44,730 --> 00:48:51,420 dysfunction, but he felt that he was terrible at sex and needed guidance. 863 00:48:51,840 --> 00:48:55,170 I don't know if it's what we would consider like EDD today, or if it 864 00:48:55,170 --> 00:48:59,580 was really just, he wasn't as good as he hoped he would be, but he 865 00:48:59,580 --> 00:49:01,650 really believed that he needed help. 866 00:49:01,800 --> 00:49:04,680 So I think he was actually kind of calling up back on his early 867 00:49:04,680 --> 00:49:08,760 years as an excuse to attack. 868 00:49:08,790 --> 00:49:13,410 And in his words, rape this moment, which of course he would never do. 869 00:49:14,040 --> 00:49:18,870 They both changed clothes or took off their clothes, got into the bedroom 870 00:49:19,200 --> 00:49:23,490 and he prayed for, uh, proceeded to bind and torture and string. 871 00:49:24,990 --> 00:49:30,900 He even told her who she, who he was and confess to his previous murders to her. 872 00:49:31,620 --> 00:49:36,900 Sonia Meza-Leon: And then like, not like it couldn't get any worse, but 873 00:49:37,380 --> 00:49:42,000 at this time let's recall that Dennis Rader was working for ADT alarm company. 874 00:49:42,720 --> 00:49:44,040 I know isn't that crazy? 875 00:49:44,430 --> 00:49:45,300 Why not? 876 00:49:45,330 --> 00:49:49,770 You know, I mean, talk about having access and information that he would really find 877 00:49:49,770 --> 00:49:51,780 useful to be able to commit these crimes. 878 00:49:52,440 --> 00:49:58,740 So on his way to work the next day, um, uh, unfortunately it was when they 879 00:49:58,740 --> 00:50:03,390 found Nancy, Joe, and they found her because he called them and told them that 880 00:50:03,390 --> 00:50:07,710 there was a murder at her address who she was and that he had murdered her. 881 00:50:08,070 --> 00:50:12,630 He called, I mean, he called, I think he called the, um, he called the news. 882 00:50:12,630 --> 00:50:14,610 Who did he call the newspaper? 883 00:50:14,640 --> 00:50:15,630 Brittney Sherman: He called the police. 884 00:50:15,660 --> 00:50:17,130 He actually, he, no, I think he called 885 00:50:17,130 --> 00:50:17,850 Sonia Meza-Leon: the police. 886 00:50:18,060 --> 00:50:18,420 Oh, he did. 887 00:50:18,420 --> 00:50:19,260 He called the local police. 888 00:50:20,759 --> 00:50:22,140 Brittney Sherman: He called the police. 889 00:50:22,350 --> 00:50:27,689 And again, Dennis, not the most smartest, most intelligent guy he 890 00:50:27,689 --> 00:50:29,549 said, and I'm going to quote this. 891 00:50:29,879 --> 00:50:30,509 Yes. 892 00:50:30,660 --> 00:50:38,189 You will find a whole aside at 8 43 south Pershing Nancy Fox. 893 00:50:38,549 --> 00:50:39,660 That is correct. 894 00:50:41,069 --> 00:50:44,430 So he's trying to get caught. 895 00:50:45,359 --> 00:50:47,279 The police know are on high alert. 896 00:50:47,609 --> 00:50:54,120 He drops, the phone starts running away and I believe it was, it was 897 00:50:54,120 --> 00:50:59,430 a, a fire fighter, a first responder that actually picked up the phone 898 00:50:59,430 --> 00:51:02,850 and continue talking to the police and may have seen him running away. 899 00:51:02,850 --> 00:51:05,370 So there's potentially another 900 00:51:05,490 --> 00:51:06,000 Sonia Meza-Leon: witness. 901 00:51:06,100 --> 00:51:06,430 Yeah. 902 00:51:06,430 --> 00:51:09,879 But like white guy, five, nine, you know, dark hair. 903 00:51:11,350 --> 00:51:11,709 It's. 904 00:51:12,855 --> 00:51:13,935 He's so sloppy. 905 00:51:13,965 --> 00:51:17,025 Well, I'm, you know, like I said, I'm really shocked that he didn't get caught 906 00:51:17,025 --> 00:51:18,915 so much earlier because he was sloppy. 907 00:51:19,185 --> 00:51:23,595 And because he's like, uh, you know, I mean, how did no one ever 908 00:51:23,595 --> 00:51:27,315 notice this guy had a, no one ever be able to identify him? 909 00:51:27,495 --> 00:51:28,665 He was fairly well known. 910 00:51:28,665 --> 00:51:30,705 I mean, he was the leader of a church. 911 00:51:30,825 --> 00:51:32,565 He was a leader of the Cub Scouts. 912 00:51:32,625 --> 00:51:36,345 I mean, he knew people, he was respected, um, or at least early on. 913 00:51:36,345 --> 00:51:41,445 We'll talk a little bit later when he's a compliance officer with, which is when 914 00:51:41,445 --> 00:51:46,635 he really starts taking things out on, on hid, the people he's working with. 915 00:51:46,845 --> 00:51:48,645 I mean, it was kind of terrifying. 916 00:51:49,709 --> 00:51:53,520 So right around this time, again, BTK is feeling like he's on 917 00:51:53,520 --> 00:51:56,759 top of the world because he has successfully murdered another person. 918 00:51:57,120 --> 00:52:01,259 Um, apparently he must have forgotten about the guy that he left, uh, live 919 00:52:01,529 --> 00:52:05,160 Kevin Bright, because if he was going to say something or cause I'm sure 920 00:52:05,160 --> 00:52:08,790 Kevin Bright, you know, they interviewed and I'm sure that they publicized 921 00:52:08,790 --> 00:52:10,230 that he didn't have any information. 922 00:52:10,350 --> 00:52:12,930 So that must have been a sigh of relief for Dennis Rader. 923 00:52:12,930 --> 00:52:13,290 Right? 924 00:52:13,770 --> 00:52:17,520 So then at some point after he kills Nancy, Joe Fox Raider 925 00:52:17,529 --> 00:52:23,370 sends a sarcastic poem to the newspaper and he does sign it BTK. 926 00:52:23,700 --> 00:52:28,230 But for some reason, the news in it's a, it's a, it's a, uh, it's a 927 00:52:28,799 --> 00:52:33,450 poem about his murdering Shirley, um, which was one of his previous murders. 928 00:52:33,450 --> 00:52:33,750 Right? 929 00:52:33,750 --> 00:52:38,669 I think it was the one before Nancy and he sends it to the, the newspaper. 930 00:52:40,110 --> 00:52:43,800 Really even notice it, they send it to the classified section and then 931 00:52:43,800 --> 00:52:44,940 it doesn't have any money with it. 932 00:52:44,940 --> 00:52:47,280 Cause I guess that was around December. 933 00:52:47,280 --> 00:52:47,550 Right. 934 00:52:47,550 --> 00:52:52,290 So I guess they're thinking, you know, early 78. 935 00:52:52,290 --> 00:52:54,180 So probably before Valentine's eighth, they thought it was 936 00:52:54,180 --> 00:52:55,320 a Valentine's day thing. 937 00:52:55,500 --> 00:52:58,050 So they were, they didn't, it didn't include any money, so they're not 938 00:52:58,050 --> 00:53:01,380 going to run the ad, but they had it another time where they had something 939 00:53:01,560 --> 00:53:05,580 and signed by BTK where they just, you know, um, you know, they had gotten 940 00:53:05,580 --> 00:53:07,560 multiple letters from him by now. 941 00:53:08,010 --> 00:53:09,600 Somebody should have put this together. 942 00:53:10,170 --> 00:53:11,790 I mean, it's all in Wichita, right? 943 00:53:11,790 --> 00:53:15,120 So it's not even a matter of it being a different jurisdiction. 944 00:53:15,120 --> 00:53:15,960 It's all the same. 945 00:53:16,140 --> 00:53:20,460 I think the police struggled with trying to, um, even those went on for so long. 946 00:53:20,910 --> 00:53:24,780 I don't know if they didn't have enough manpower or they weren't focused or they 947 00:53:24,780 --> 00:53:30,030 didn't have, I mean, they, they certainly didn't publicize the information. 948 00:53:31,335 --> 00:53:36,195 It sounds to me like they had a moment where, and maybe they didn't, but 949 00:53:36,405 --> 00:53:40,305 Raider, you know, is upset with them because he's not giving them enough. 950 00:53:40,515 --> 00:53:44,595 And it leads them to believe in what he says to them is, you know, I'm going to 951 00:53:44,595 --> 00:53:47,625 do this again, and now he does it again. 952 00:53:47,625 --> 00:53:50,595 And the police do blame themselves a bit for not stopping it because they 953 00:53:50,595 --> 00:53:54,555 think if they acknowledged him in the Shirley, um, the Shirley murder, 954 00:53:55,275 --> 00:53:58,125 then they wouldn't, he it's possible. 955 00:53:58,125 --> 00:54:02,175 He wouldn't have murdered Nancy Fox surely, uh, via, I doubt that. 956 00:54:02,175 --> 00:54:04,035 I think he still would've murdered Nancy Fox. 957 00:54:04,634 --> 00:54:07,095 I honestly, I mean, we know that he progresses. 958 00:54:07,134 --> 00:54:07,305 Brittney Sherman: Yeah. 959 00:54:07,365 --> 00:54:08,355 Yeah, definitely. 960 00:54:08,655 --> 00:54:15,285 Uh, the w here's another area where I feel like he should have gotten caught, which 961 00:54:15,285 --> 00:54:23,445 has no shame or blame here, but he, he wrote a poem called Shirley locks that he 962 00:54:23,445 --> 00:54:29,235 sent to the paper and his wife actually read that poem and commented to a friend. 963 00:54:30,134 --> 00:54:32,685 That person writes like Dennis, they have poor spelling and 964 00:54:32,685 --> 00:54:34,005 grammar, just like he does. 965 00:54:35,145 --> 00:54:35,475 So 966 00:54:35,595 --> 00:54:37,424 Sonia Meza-Leon: she had no suspicion, but 967 00:54:37,485 --> 00:54:38,715 Brittney Sherman: she recognized 968 00:54:38,715 --> 00:54:38,924 Sonia Meza-Leon: it. 969 00:54:40,245 --> 00:54:44,595 Well, she caught him writing that letter and he told her that he was writing 970 00:54:44,595 --> 00:54:46,485 a free as criminal justice class. 971 00:54:46,845 --> 00:54:52,125 And yeah, no, she, not only did she see it in the newspaper later, but 972 00:54:52,125 --> 00:54:54,945 she saw it in his hands when he was writing it, he continued to write it. 973 00:54:54,945 --> 00:54:59,115 And then he went ahead and sent it and he talk and he told her that he 974 00:54:59,115 --> 00:55:03,645 was, it was, he was writing it for his criminal justice class about BTK. 975 00:55:04,065 --> 00:55:08,505 So he told his wife there's a letter in his hand was written about BTK, which was. 976 00:55:09,585 --> 00:55:11,565 No, that was his wife again. 977 00:55:11,565 --> 00:55:13,725 There's no you in a million years. 978 00:55:13,725 --> 00:55:15,645 I don't care if I was his wife. 979 00:55:15,645 --> 00:55:16,545 I wouldn't have known either. 980 00:55:16,545 --> 00:55:17,415 I wouldn't have thought about it. 981 00:55:17,475 --> 00:55:19,725 I mean, they've also got his phone call. 982 00:55:19,785 --> 00:55:21,705 They've got this voice, they released this voice. 983 00:55:21,735 --> 00:55:25,005 They released that recording a bit later, but again, I don't know why they waited. 984 00:55:25,185 --> 00:55:27,585 They needed some, the police really needed some strategy here. 985 00:55:27,735 --> 00:55:31,165 I don't think that they, um, they had a really clear strategy 986 00:55:31,165 --> 00:55:33,525 behind what they were trying to achieve other than solving it. 987 00:55:33,525 --> 00:55:36,885 And I don't know if they just really, they thought about it and they really 988 00:55:36,885 --> 00:55:39,615 plotted as well as they probably should have to actually make this happen. 989 00:55:40,545 --> 00:55:48,615 So, so again, Nancy, Jo Fox, 25 years old murder, December 8th, 1977 in Wichita. 990 00:55:48,915 --> 00:55:50,505 And she was strangled as well. 991 00:55:50,715 --> 00:55:52,905 Brittney Sherman: Victim number 992 00:55:52,905 --> 00:55:53,145 Sonia Meza-Leon: eight. 993 00:55:54,465 --> 00:55:55,425 Yeah, we are number eight. 994 00:55:56,235 --> 00:56:02,595 Brittney Sherman: So, uh, from 1978, December of 78, through 1985, or until 995 00:56:02,595 --> 00:56:11,025 1985, Dennis was able to quell his factor X and resumed his activities 996 00:56:11,025 --> 00:56:12,975 in the community and in the church. 997 00:56:13,185 --> 00:56:15,375 And his son was super into boy Scouts. 998 00:56:15,495 --> 00:56:20,685 So he became a troop leader who was active in the community until he was 999 00:56:20,685 --> 00:56:27,405 unable to keep that factor down and saw an opportunity being a troop leader with 1000 00:56:27,405 --> 00:56:30,885 his son on an outing of camping outing. 1001 00:56:31,305 --> 00:56:37,605 So victim number eight is Marine hedge, a widow and neighbor, uh, 1002 00:56:37,635 --> 00:56:40,815 from down the street of Dennis Rader. 1003 00:56:41,265 --> 00:56:48,375 So in this story on April 27th, he led his boy scout troop out on a camping 1004 00:56:48,375 --> 00:56:51,105 trip with a couple other chaperones and. 1005 00:56:51,960 --> 00:56:53,910 Said that he was going to go to bed early. 1006 00:56:54,270 --> 00:56:57,690 He took this opportunity while the kids were still up doing camping 1007 00:56:57,690 --> 00:57:06,930 stuff and drove his car to a bowling alley of all places had a beer then 1008 00:57:06,990 --> 00:57:12,960 pretended to be drunk and call the taxi to take him to Marines home. 1009 00:57:13,020 --> 00:57:19,080 When he got to her home, he did what his become his emo cutting her 1010 00:57:19,080 --> 00:57:24,450 phone line, snuck in through the back and waited for her to get home. 1011 00:57:24,550 --> 00:57:26,520 This is extremely similar. 1012 00:57:27,615 --> 00:57:30,615 Profiling and activity to Nancy Fox. 1013 00:57:31,174 --> 00:57:37,125 A man came home with her, which he wasn't expecting, but left Dennis came out of 1014 00:57:37,125 --> 00:57:43,875 the, uh, the, of hiding after the man left and choked 53 year old Marine to death. 1015 00:57:44,174 --> 00:57:45,435 Sonia Meza-Leon: Oh my God. 1016 00:57:45,975 --> 00:57:48,674 Uh let's I'm going to back up a little bit and talk about Marine because 1017 00:57:48,674 --> 00:57:51,705 I had a couple of things that are really important to say about Marine. 1018 00:57:52,245 --> 00:57:58,395 Um, number one, she's older than her other victim, his other victims. 1019 00:57:58,725 --> 00:58:00,615 Um, but that's, he was aging too. 1020 00:58:00,705 --> 00:58:03,075 So that actually doesn't surprise me that much. 1021 00:58:03,375 --> 00:58:08,325 She was 53 and most of his other victims were, uh, 40, uh, when it 1022 00:58:08,325 --> 00:58:09,525 comes to women and things like that. 1023 00:58:09,884 --> 00:58:10,904 Well, I thought they 1024 00:58:10,904 --> 00:58:11,865 Brittney Sherman: were like in their twenties. 1025 00:58:11,895 --> 00:58:14,145 Well, there were a variety of ages. 1026 00:58:15,044 --> 00:58:15,884 Sonia Meza-Leon: Actually you're right. 1027 00:58:15,915 --> 00:58:17,475 No, no. 1028 00:58:17,665 --> 00:58:18,794 They were in their thirties in there. 1029 00:58:18,794 --> 00:58:19,095 Yeah. 1030 00:58:19,095 --> 00:58:21,875 You're out 38, 28, 1031 00:58:21,875 --> 00:58:22,904 Brittney Sherman: 25. 1032 00:58:23,415 --> 00:58:23,774 Sonia Meza-Leon: Yeah. 1033 00:58:23,805 --> 00:58:25,225 So yeah, you're 1034 00:58:25,225 --> 00:58:25,365 Brittney Sherman: right. 1035 00:58:25,944 --> 00:58:30,015 You're totally right about, he was 40 now, so he was getting 1036 00:58:30,044 --> 00:58:31,665 older, so yeah, you're right. 1037 00:58:31,665 --> 00:58:33,884 I mean, he was like, he was actually almost like attacking 1038 00:58:34,274 --> 00:58:37,575 women similar in age to him. 1039 00:58:37,575 --> 00:58:41,384 And now he's 40, she's 53, but he he's aging. 1040 00:58:42,254 --> 00:58:42,674 Sonia Meza-Leon: Yeah. 1041 00:58:42,734 --> 00:58:43,055 Yeah. 1042 00:58:43,274 --> 00:58:47,895 Well, one of the reasons too is because he may have, I mean, his ability to 1043 00:58:47,895 --> 00:58:53,384 control them, you know, as if they're younger, it may not be that easy anymore. 1044 00:58:53,774 --> 00:58:54,345 What's interesting. 1045 00:58:54,464 --> 00:58:57,464 A couple of other things that are interesting about Maureen first off his 1046 00:58:57,464 --> 00:59:01,964 entire family, newer, she lived about six houses down, which is pretty ballsy. 1047 00:59:01,995 --> 00:59:05,535 If you asked me, Dennis knew this woman, um, you know, 1048 00:59:05,535 --> 00:59:07,154 she, I think she lived alone. 1049 00:59:08,715 --> 00:59:13,875 He, I cannot believe that he chose his neighbor six doors down to 1050 00:59:13,905 --> 00:59:16,095 stock and then figure out this plan. 1051 00:59:16,275 --> 00:59:17,475 It was right. 1052 00:59:18,735 --> 00:59:18,915 Yeah. 1053 00:59:19,545 --> 00:59:24,195 And his daughter recalls when this woman died and nobody tied it to BTK at all. 1054 00:59:24,345 --> 00:59:26,505 Even though it seemed fairly obvious, right? 1055 00:59:26,505 --> 00:59:28,635 At least maybe the daughter at the time didn't tie it. 1056 00:59:28,665 --> 00:59:31,965 But you know, it, if somebody dies six doors down from me, I'm 1057 00:59:31,965 --> 00:59:33,075 going to freaking remember it. 1058 00:59:33,075 --> 00:59:34,125 It's going to be a thing. 1059 00:59:34,125 --> 00:59:38,025 And it's like, you're your friend, you know, their family friend or whatever. 1060 00:59:38,445 --> 00:59:39,195 Um, all right. 1061 00:59:39,195 --> 00:59:44,765 So backing up to, to your point, Dennis re and that's why I wanted to say that 1062 00:59:44,775 --> 00:59:47,865 was because what's important about that is that's why he had to figure 1063 00:59:47,865 --> 00:59:49,605 out another way to get to her house. 1064 00:59:49,725 --> 00:59:54,165 Besides just walking down the street or taking a direct route, he needed an alibi. 1065 00:59:54,345 --> 00:59:55,875 So it was a Cub scout thing. 1066 00:59:56,055 --> 01:00:00,255 Then he had to come back into town, drop his car off at the bowling alley. 1067 01:00:00,255 --> 01:00:02,565 Like you said, it takes a cab pretends, like he's drunk. 1068 01:00:02,805 --> 01:00:04,455 Oh, let me get out right here. 1069 01:00:04,515 --> 01:00:08,115 So he has the cab dropper drop him off somewhere close to her 1070 01:00:08,115 --> 01:00:09,255 house, but not in front of it. 1071 01:00:09,255 --> 01:00:10,635 So nobody would have been the wiser. 1072 01:00:10,635 --> 01:00:10,995 Right. 1073 01:00:11,055 --> 01:00:12,735 Also, I want to sort of lay the scene of it. 1074 01:00:13,320 --> 01:00:17,580 This is a 53 year old woman, a woman that he knows a nice woman. 1075 01:00:17,640 --> 01:00:22,770 Apparently he stands there in hides for quite a long time and 1076 01:00:22,770 --> 01:00:24,270 then waits for her to go to sleep. 1077 01:00:24,570 --> 01:00:27,420 And then the middle of the night, he turns on the bathroom 1078 01:00:27,420 --> 01:00:29,040 light and the closet light. 1079 01:00:29,370 --> 01:00:32,040 Well, I'm sure she's pooping, you know, bricks by now. 1080 01:00:32,040 --> 01:00:34,770 Cause she's like, oh my God, there's somebody in my house. 1081 01:00:35,250 --> 01:00:38,100 He comes in and he lays down next to her in bed. 1082 01:00:39,630 --> 01:00:41,310 So freaking gross. 1083 01:00:41,700 --> 01:00:46,320 So yeah, same old bullshit that he always pulls. 1084 01:00:46,920 --> 01:00:49,680 Like you said, Brittany, you know, he strangled her, but 1085 01:00:49,680 --> 01:00:51,090 this is a woman that he knew. 1086 01:00:51,330 --> 01:00:53,130 This is what is perplexing to me. 1087 01:00:53,640 --> 01:00:58,290 Not only did he know her and not only did he murder her, but he defiled her. 1088 01:00:58,590 --> 01:01:00,810 He took her dead. 1089 01:01:01,665 --> 01:01:02,715 To his church. 1090 01:01:03,105 --> 01:01:05,925 He, he had it set up at the church. 1091 01:01:05,955 --> 01:01:07,935 He had like black plastic and all this shit. 1092 01:01:08,265 --> 01:01:09,975 And so he was ready for her. 1093 01:01:09,975 --> 01:01:13,565 And so he took her there and he took this to this nice woman. 1094 01:01:13,905 --> 01:01:14,895 And go ahead. 1095 01:01:15,525 --> 01:01:15,855 He 1096 01:01:15,884 --> 01:01:17,295 Brittney Sherman: was president of the church council. 1097 01:01:17,295 --> 01:01:20,265 So he had full access to the church whenever he wanted. 1098 01:01:20,415 --> 01:01:23,595 So this wasn't like a weird thing for him to go into it. 1099 01:01:23,985 --> 01:01:26,775 I mean, it might be weird to go in the middle of the night regardless, but it's 1100 01:01:26,775 --> 01:01:31,845 not like he was this guy breaking in and that had w that shouldn't have access. 1101 01:01:32,295 --> 01:01:32,895 It was okay. 1102 01:01:32,895 --> 01:01:34,335 That he was there when he was there. 1103 01:01:35,775 --> 01:01:38,745 Sonia Meza-Leon: Well, yeah, but he still brought a woman in and then back out. 1104 01:01:42,270 --> 01:01:43,440 Yeah, terrifying. 1105 01:01:43,590 --> 01:01:48,930 So he brings poor Marine and he's got this planned ahead of time that he 1106 01:01:48,930 --> 01:01:50,640 is going to take photographs of her. 1107 01:01:50,760 --> 01:01:55,740 And he ties her up in a variety of bondage, you know, I guess positions. 1108 01:01:56,070 --> 01:01:58,230 And he takes photographs of her. 1109 01:01:58,500 --> 01:02:02,790 And then when he's done, he takes her body and he dumps her in a remote location. 1110 01:02:02,940 --> 01:02:06,480 I don't think they find her for like nine days, this poor woman. 1111 01:02:07,080 --> 01:02:08,850 I mean, just so, so terrible. 1112 01:02:09,300 --> 01:02:09,540 What's 1113 01:02:09,720 --> 01:02:14,220 Brittney Sherman: of so weird about this to me is he's almost treating her with 1114 01:02:14,370 --> 01:02:19,920 reverence and taking these pictures and then he just decides to dispose of her. 1115 01:02:20,640 --> 01:02:24,780 Like it it's like kind of polar opposites, the way that he treats her. 1116 01:02:24,780 --> 01:02:30,480 I don't really, I mean, I don't understand what's going on in his head, but I just, 1117 01:02:30,840 --> 01:02:34,950 to me, this was, it was especially weird. 1118 01:02:34,950 --> 01:02:38,910 I think this was the weirdest strangest one for me, because it was just a bunch 1119 01:02:38,910 --> 01:02:40,230 of activities that don't seem to have. 1120 01:02:41,145 --> 01:02:41,715 Sonia Meza-Leon: Yeah. 1121 01:02:41,745 --> 01:02:44,595 Well, remember this was when he had come back from his hiatus too. 1122 01:02:44,654 --> 01:02:47,265 So of course he may have been a little off his game. 1123 01:02:47,595 --> 01:02:51,675 He maybe was teed up, like he says, you know, with factor X. 1124 01:02:52,005 --> 01:02:52,215 Oh. 1125 01:02:52,365 --> 01:02:58,215 By the way, he, um, I'm pretty sure that he nicknamed his penis. 1126 01:02:58,875 --> 01:02:59,595 Um, 1127 01:03:00,765 --> 01:03:01,755 Brittney Sherman: yeah. 1128 01:03:01,815 --> 01:03:02,235 That's okay. 1129 01:03:02,235 --> 01:03:02,865 I don't know. 1130 01:03:04,649 --> 01:03:06,149 Sonia Meza-Leon: Yeah, no, it's important though. 1131 01:03:06,210 --> 01:03:07,020 Oh, my phone died. 1132 01:03:07,020 --> 01:03:08,160 You have to look it up on your computer. 1133 01:03:09,330 --> 01:03:10,529 I can look it up right now. 1134 01:03:10,589 --> 01:03:14,490 So, um, S S B T or something is what it is. 1135 01:03:14,819 --> 01:03:15,270 Brittney Sherman: Okay. 1136 01:03:15,299 --> 01:03:20,790 Well, uh, while I look that up on my computer and I should probably block my 1137 01:03:20,790 --> 01:03:25,740 search history for this, um, you know, what's on you, we're going so strong. 1138 01:03:25,770 --> 01:03:27,720 I think this needs to be a two-parter. 1139 01:03:27,960 --> 01:03:30,810 So, um, I think we should wrap this up right now. 1140 01:03:30,839 --> 01:03:35,910 We actually have gone over an hour, but, um, we will come back 1141 01:03:35,940 --> 01:03:39,240 and talk about his last killings. 1142 01:03:39,509 --> 01:03:44,910 And then of course, how he ultimately got himself caught, which was 1143 01:03:44,910 --> 01:03:47,609 another horrible act of hubris. 1144 01:03:48,330 --> 01:03:49,500 Anything else you want to add? 1145 01:03:50,685 --> 01:03:53,055 Sonia Meza-Leon: Well, I think you guys can look forward to the second 1146 01:03:53,055 --> 01:03:58,575 episode where I'm going to have a lot of strong opinions about Dennis 1147 01:03:58,575 --> 01:04:02,295 Rader and my feelings for him as a human being more than they've 1148 01:04:02,295 --> 01:04:03,885 already had the victims through. 1149 01:04:04,185 --> 01:04:05,925 Yes, I, it will. 1150 01:04:05,925 --> 01:04:06,735 It gets worse. 1151 01:04:07,095 --> 01:04:07,815 It gets worse. 1152 01:04:08,025 --> 01:04:11,595 I can't, I can't even believe that it gets worse, but it gets worse 1153 01:04:12,225 --> 01:04:15,555 because, and we'll, we'll talk about it in a minute, but we'll talk about 1154 01:04:15,555 --> 01:04:19,305 the ninth victim and then we'll also talk about again, how he got caught. 1155 01:04:19,305 --> 01:04:20,925 So stay tuned, scar lettuce. 1156 01:04:21,165 --> 01:04:21,735 Brittney Sherman: All right. 1157 01:04:21,735 --> 01:04:23,715 Well, um, thanks for listening. 1158 01:04:23,775 --> 01:04:28,755 Stick around for the end to hear from some of our other favorite shows that 1159 01:04:28,755 --> 01:04:30,075 we like to give shout outs to you. 1160 01:04:30,075 --> 01:04:32,715 We always love supporting independent podcasters. 1161 01:04:33,135 --> 01:04:37,575 Uh, keep in mind, we are part of the pod all the time podcast 1162 01:04:37,575 --> 01:04:41,145 network, check them out on social media when you're checking us out. 1163 01:04:42,075 --> 01:04:42,405 All right. 1164 01:04:42,405 --> 01:04:43,935 We are the ladies of Scarlet. 1165 01:04:44,265 --> 01:04:44,565 Oh. 1166 01:04:44,685 --> 01:04:47,775 And, uh, Dennis Raiders nickname for his penis. 1167 01:04:50,865 --> 01:04:51,465 Keep killing it. 1168 01:05:00,995 --> 01:05:05,404 Nana Checko, a couple other podcasters that support us 1169 01:05:05,435 --> 01:05:07,475 and we want to give them some 1170 01:05:07,475 --> 01:05:07,955 Sonia Meza-Leon: support. 1171 01:05:13,055 --> 01:05:15,455 Hey fellow Scarlet, true crime listeners. 1172 01:05:15,875 --> 01:05:18,845 I'm CC the host of a new true crime podcast. 1173 01:05:19,145 --> 01:05:23,615 Sooner state, true crime as a born and bred Oki I'll cover cases 1174 01:05:23,615 --> 01:05:27,904 based in my wonderful home state of Oklahoma, the term sooner actually 1175 01:05:27,904 --> 01:05:29,615 refers to tutors in the land run. 1176 01:05:30,065 --> 01:05:31,835 My state's very first true crime. 1177 01:05:32,555 --> 01:05:36,154 New episodes are released twice a month in apple podcasts and most 1178 01:05:36,154 --> 01:05:41,375 podcasts apps or visit our website, anchor.fm/crime state to listen now. 1179 01:05:42,150 --> 01:05:47,940 So come away with me to my crime state on the Sooners state, true crime podcast, 1180 01:05:48,600 --> 01:05:50,340 and please stay sooner, safe out there. 1181 01:05:50,340 --> 01:05:50,760 Y'all 1182 01:05:56,420 --> 01:05:57,320 hi everyone. 1183 01:05:57,620 --> 01:05:59,990 I'm Ariel Cooksey, host of malice. 1184 01:06:00,320 --> 01:06:04,850 When violent acts occur, we tend to think the predators are monsters. 1185 01:06:05,330 --> 01:06:09,980 Surely no human could do such things, but if we're honest, only 1186 01:06:09,980 --> 01:06:12,050 humans commit malicious crime. 1187 01:06:12,590 --> 01:06:16,610 And if you're like me, you want to know why to find out. 1188 01:06:16,970 --> 01:06:20,930 Join me at malice, wherever you listen to podcasts by, 1189 01:06:24,290 --> 01:06:25,790 Hey, y'all I'm Brandon Hall. 1190 01:06:26,420 --> 01:06:29,510 I'm one of those two musics that he now will want a podcast about the good, 1191 01:06:29,690 --> 01:06:32,450 the bad and the dark side of nine 11. 1192 01:06:32,450 --> 01:06:36,980 Dispatching me and my co-hosts are 9 1 1 dispatchers with over 60 years of expanse. 1193 01:06:37,995 --> 01:06:41,265 Join us as we play 9 1, 1 calls and discuss them. 1194 01:06:42,195 --> 01:06:46,995 Oh, did I mention that we get dark 9 1 1. 1195 01:06:47,085 --> 01:06:48,135 What's your emergency? 1196 01:06:52,905 --> 01:06:53,745 Brittney Sherman: How many people did you 1197 01:06:53,745 --> 01:06:54,135 Sonia Meza-Leon: shoot? 1198 01:07:08,355 --> 01:07:12,375 yeah, my husband and they stopped my daughter and laid me. 1199 01:07:20,955 --> 01:07:25,905 you can find us on Facebook, Twitter, and Instagram at music city nine 11, and we're 1200 01:07:25,905 --> 01:07:27,915 downloadable on every podcast platform. 1201 01:07:30,105 --> 01:07:33,645 Brittney Sherman: We want to give a shout out to the pod all the time 1202 01:07:33,735 --> 01:07:39,555 podcast network that we Scarlet TCP are proud members of other 1203 01:07:39,555 --> 01:07:43,575 Sonia Meza-Leon: members of the pod, all the time podcast network, our creative 1204 01:07:43,575 --> 01:07:50,115 intuitive, another digital citizen history of a haunting round and round the podcast. 1205 01:07:50,475 --> 01:07:56,235 Real AKA truth podcast, ruck up podcast, random unnamed podcast. 1206 01:07:56,715 --> 01:08:02,145 Surburban folk three peas in a podcast, Ross sex podcast. 1207 01:08:02,445 --> 01:08:04,545 I think we're doing it podcasts. 1208 01:08:04,995 --> 01:08:07,725 Brittney Sherman: So if you like what you're hearing from Scarlet TCP, check 1209 01:08:07,725 --> 01:08:13,575 out these other shows that members of the pod all the time podcast network.