The medicine of east Asia is based on a science that does not hold itself separate from the phenomenon that it seeks to understand our medicine did not grow out of Petri dish, experimentation, or double blind studies. It arose from observing nature and our part in it. East Asian medicine evolves not from the examination of dead structures, but rather from living systems with their complex neutrally entangled interactions. Welcome to qiological. I'm Michael max, the host of this podcast that goes in depth on issues, pertinent to practitioners and students. Of east Asian medicine, dialogue and discussion have always been elemental to Chinese and other east Asian medicines. Listening to these conversations with experienced practitioners that go deep into how this ancient medicine is alive and unfolding in the modern clinic. Hello everybody. Welcome back to qiological today. We're visiting with Francis Turner. Francis spent 17 years touring and recording with a leading UK Baroque orchestra and inside. And during that time began to get interested in Chinese medicine, which she has now been practicing and teaching for over 20 years. She now runs a clinic in Chelsea England and has gone deep into the current of Jean Fon, the classic formulas with Dr. Fung Shirlon, who was one of the main students of the Shanghai, one master of the last century, Dr. Hussein. Both doctors, Fung and who have a unique perspective on the six levels, which will be a part of our discussion today, as we take a deep dive into the classic formulas and how they're used in modern practice and looking at some perspectives about the classic formulas and about the Shanghai Lewin that you might not have been exposed to yet. Francis. Welcome to qiological. Well, thank you very much delightful to have you here. So I suspect as for most of us, you entered the world of Chinese herbal medicine via the methods and the paradigm of modern TC.

Uh, absolutely. And, you know, I spent many, many years practicing and also teaching TCM and also trying to work out ways of teaching students in a way that would make it possible for them to learn it easily. Um, I spent many, many years trying to do that with varying success.

So what is it that gave you the nudge? Toward working with this particular perspective, you know, as embodied by functioning lung, you know, in his mentor, who she shou, what, what gave you sort of the heads up on this and what moved you in that direction?

Partly it was luck I'd say because there was just a, an information sent round about Suzanne. Webinars with Dr. From saloon. And, um, I had to look at this and strangely I'd just decided that I was never, ever going to do any more CPD.

Oh, the universe is so generous with us. Isn't it?

So I looked at this thing and I got a kind of tingling feeling, which is the feeling I get. When I think that I've absolutely got to do something. And so I pursued it. And even though the webinars were for us time and I'm in the UK, she meant that they were all in the middle of the night. I actually attended them all. From the first one, it was absolutely clear to me that this was the thing that I'd been looking for. Dr. Phone presented the six syndromes and cases from all the six syndromes. And every time he presented something, it was like, oh my goodness. That explains that. And, okay, well that's obvious. And you know, just, just like a whole load of pins dropping into place.

Can you give us an example? Of one of those pins dropping into place. An example of him explaining something from the, you call it a six syndromes. We often call it the six levels. Here are the six confirmations. I, I think we all know what we're talking about. Can you give us an example of, of one where you go, oh, well that explains that. Well,

one of the things is to show you and, um, I'd never understood the difference between the show, you, and then the choice and what particularly made, which suddenly there was this explanation of the ShaoYin as an exterior syndrome. And to me, this was completely amazing. And the idea that you can treat an exterior syndrome with a concurrent interior deficiency. I suppose that that was one of the main things that suddenly it made sense of that whole

syndrome. I remember reading in the various or books when I was a student about these conditions where there might be an exterior excess with a concurrent internal deficiency. It kind of made sense in a, well, how do I want to say this? You know, it may, I could wrap my mind around it, but actual. Uh, seeing it in clinic seemed to be a different thing. And here's the other thing for me, I remember learning the six levels. You've got your young levels, you've got your yin levels. And to take the idea of a in level thing, shall even in this case and thinking of that as having an exterior component, that's just mind blowing. Yeah.

Completely different, absolutely different. And then this, this whole thing that I've been thinking about a lot recently is that the TaiYin is absolutely the core of everything. So apart from the possibly the Taiyang hum, which is the cold damage where you use more long form, it was mainly everything else has an element of TaiYin deficiency. Even if it's not specifically named. So one of the core things that we're doing is we're deciding what kind of Italian deficiency is there. So is it a 20 in deficiency of body fluids or blood, or is it more of a TaiYin deficiency causing an excess of internal room or blood status? So that is underlying everything it's underlying the shaoyang and it's even underlying the TaiYin or windstorm.

When you say TaiYin, what are you referring to

the teaching from.here? Is that the syndromes or locations? There are three locations and each location has a young and a year in syndrome. So the exterior of the body, the Taiyang is the young aspect and the ShaoYin is the unit spectacle. Whereas the interior, the Yangming is the young aspect. And the tie in is the unit aspect. And then there's this other incredible concept, which is the half interior, half exterior. And that's the ShaoYin and the choice. So I actually, essentially, it's a fairly simple concept the body, but we have to remember with the exterior, for example, is that the exterior includes everything pretty much. That's not the internal organs, so it includes the bones and the muscles and the ligaments and the skin and the skin poles and all of that. Once you start to broaden it in that way, then it's easy to see how things like rheumatoid arthritis can be part of an exterior center. Which means that then we can diagnose it as a Taiyang or ShaoYin.

Okay. So I understand that you spent some time with this. I suspect the people that are listening to our conversation are perhaps having a moment like I'm having right now, which is how do I wrap my mind around this? Because we have. It, at least in the schooling that I had. And I suspect it's very similar to the schooling that many of you know, those of you that are listening right now have had, it's like there's exterior or there's interior. And basically if it has the name young in it, it's exterior and it has the name union in it. It's interior. But I'm hearing you say something really different here because you're calling Yangming an interior.

Yeah, this is the understanding of the sixth. Syndromes is absolutely different from young being an exterior. And in being interior, just to reiterate, you have three locations and each location has a urine and a year in syndrome.

And when you say three locations, What are we referring to her?

So we were trying to the exterior and to the interior exterior so that the exterior is a location in the body. So when you get an invasion, it's not exterior because something's coming from the outside. It's exterior because the disease is manifesting in the areas of the body, which are considered to be exterior. That's the skin, the muscles, the bones, the joints, sometimes the lungs and the nose can be part or the head can be part of the exterior.

Got it. I can see where this can make it so confusing for many of us that when we think of something exterior, we were thinking of something coming from the exterior. As opposed to something manifesting in the exterior of the body itself. And that's really where the focus is with this. Am I correct in that?

Absolutely.

Okay. It's kind of like looking at one of those funny pictures. Well, they weren't, they're not pictures. I, I forget what they're called, but it used to be a popular thing in the Sunday newspaper here in the United States. Maybe 20 years ago, you look at this image. Actually, it was not an image. It looked like a television screen full of static. If you're old enough to remember what that looked like, but if you hold your eyes just right, you'll actually see that there's an image. There's a picture on the inside and it's actually in three dimensions. Did you ever see those things?

Absolutely. Yeah. You have to de-focus in a particular way and there

it is. There it is. And not only there it is. It has a certain dimensionality and you can actually walk around and look around inside of it. Once your focus is that way, I'm going to have to put a link to that on the show notes page to some of those things, because some of our listeners may not know what we're talking about, but once they see it and get it, I think they'll, they'll understand what we're talking about here. Perhaps you could

find a Chinese dragon.

I'll see what I can do about. You know, some years ago I stumbled across one of Dr. Hershey shoes books when I was in China. For some reason, at that point, I don't know this was 10 or 12 years ago. The Jing Fong was becoming very popular again in China. And the bookstores were full of all kinds of things that maybe hadn't been printed for a long time. And I remember picking up this book who she shoes and beginning to read it. And coming up to this very thing that we're talking about, although after speaking with you, I feel like I understand it better. Now, the thing that really got my attention about this is the way, not only that, that we look at the six confirmation. So the six syndromes is, as you say, but that there's ways that they connect that we use in clinic, but we don't really think about, so let me give you an example, the shaoyang in the jury. At least as I was taught, shaoyang goes into tie in when we're thinking about how things get transmitted. And then you got the Drury in, which is down at the bottom somewhere, and it turns into young, but nobody could ever explain to me how it turned into young. You know, it was just like, it's the end of yen. It's the beginning of Yangming it's collapsed exhaustion, maybe death Yon comes out of that and it never made sense to. Until I looked in this book and saw that well, and this is, as you pointed out the half interior, half exterior, the Dre in, in the shaoyang are the union young aspects of each other. Exactly.

So that, there's a number of things in there. One of the things that occurs to me is I remember Dr. saying death comes from the, TaiYin not from the JueYin. Which is I think interesting. And he considers that all the depth closes to do with the TaiYin. Even if it says in the beginning of the phrase, in a ShaoYin syndrome, if there is diarrhea, then you treat this so anytime or whatever, he says that in that case, that means that there's been a transmission from the ShaoYin to the TaiYin because the diarrhea is a tie in sin, a symptom, but it's an interior cold. And that is the core of the shun handler and is to protect us from cold, which is what kills us. That was one thing that came out of what you said for me. Just then the second thing that came out of it was that it's very clear to me from having watched Dr. Fung in clinic, that there's no set line of transmission from one syndrome to another. So that disease can start in the tire and then it can transmit. For example, from over sweating or purging someone inappropriately, it can transmit to the Yangming or it can transmit to the TaiYin or it can transmit to the ShaoYin. There's no guarantee that it's going to transmit into any particular way. That is actually very useful. Because it means that you can absolutely follow the symptoms to where they're going. And, and it's very real in clinic that,

so it's not like a train schedule where this train arrives and then it goes here and then it goes here and then it goes there. It's more like cold comes in. It could transmit anywhere. And it's our job to figure out where is it now and where might it be?

Absolutely. And even, you know, even if you have an idea of what might happen, really, the job is where is it now? The whole thing is in the present. It's like, it doesn't really matter what happened last week, but patients always want to come and tell you what happened last week, but the Herb's yet that you give them dependent on what is happening today. And that's why we don't give people hopes for long periods of time, because these formulas are really strong and they really do what they say they do. So, you know, after you've had the formula for a week or maybe two weeks, you want to know exactly what's happened and some formulas, maybe even two days or three days. So you get to know which formulas acting, which particular way. In terms of the length of time that you can leave people on them, but basically you don't, you assume that things are going to change. You don't assume you're going to put somebody on a formula that suits them and they'll be on it for the rest

of their life. No, that's, I mean, that's antithetical to Chinese medicine thinking in the first place it is, but it's,

you know, there are a lot of patients, they like a formula and they say, can I have that one again? It's like, no, you can't, you haven't got the symptoms anymore.

Th this, I think this is just the way as human beings are we, something comes along and it helps us and we go, I love it. I want it forever. You know, likewise something comes along and we have a bad experience. We go, I hate it forever. And yet in that moment, we love it. Or in that moment we hate it. But really how do we connect with this moment? And especially as practitioners, how do we connect? And see, where is it now? Because I don't know about you, but I know myself, I can get kind of lazy sometimes and I'm thinking, well, this has worked before, you know, I think I'm seeing basically the same thing I saw before, but, you know, sometimes it's just because, well, it's been working, so let's not mess with it until maybe it's not working. How do you sort of focus your clinical eyes, so to speak? So that you can see what's happening right now.

Um, it's a question of trucking symptoms. So from the gene plan, point of view, what you're looking for is a symptom picture, not includes the time of pulse. If you have, let's say, if you have dry throat blurry vision first and rib side pain, for example, you know, you're in the ShaoYin or possibly the Dre yen, because those are the core symptoms of heat, both. So, but you're looking for all of them. If you just have the dry mouth you're prudently not, or you may not be. So, what you're doing is you're looking at all the whole, the symptoms they tell you. And then there are specific symptoms that you're checking out all the time and yeah. Making a diagnosis on that basis. What are some

of the key things you say? There are certain symptoms that you're checking for all the time. Are there some key things that you're looking for that help you to orient or what's going on with people?

Hot and cold a lot of time. So yeah, dry mouth thirst. That's a good one. And urination, both normal things. Really, um, sweating heat, peace at night nights symptoms in general, bloating, digestive difficulties. And then coughs and colds, or just coughs and wheezing and sinus problems. You know, you want the whole lot, it's a whole picture thing. There are certain lines in the Shanghai learners. I know, I I'm sure you know that. Give you the key symptoms for each pattern.

Oh, yeah, the Shanghai was full of that kind of thing.

It's full of it. And really the more I do this, the more I realize that the way to get better at this medicine is to learn the sham handler and to really know, okay. Like line 263 is my main heat above symptoms and lines. 1, 2, 3 are my main Taiyang symptoms or close 20 is my main ShaoYin code. It sounds a bit kind of geeky, but it really is important to do it.

I had a patient recently with, uh, some bad acid reflux, which she didn't usually have, but, but she had it. I actually, I've been reading functioned loans book with our friend, uh, Paula Campanelli. We're slowly chewing through. And I mean, basically line by line, right? So we're learning some different lines and the things that go with it. And I had just done which is basically wager tongue with mark wager. Right. And this is for This is for running piglet. This is for things going up, including. You know, acid reflux. And there's a thing in there in, in Dr. Fund's book about how this can also be brought about by improper she gone practices and I'm thinking, well, that's interesting. I mean, how often are you going to see someone who's improperly practicing chigong and they've got this kind of, you know, running piglet thing and, and, you know, the various symptoms that go with things going up. Later that week, I get a patient who really didn't suffer from acid reflux, but now she had it and it was really bad. And then she was telling me about this new meditative practice that she does, where she sits and she brings the energy from the lower part of her body and she brings it upwards. Okay,

so you thought close.

Yeah. Yeah. So, and I'm, you know, and I'm nervous as a cat in a room full of rocking chairs, because generally speaking, I look at her and I go, Ooh, this is a woman who is much more of like a, uh, a bond shop type constitution. This is some of the stuff I picked up from Dr. Hall. Right. And, and I'm thinking, give her glacier, oh my God. You know, I, I mean, her is already kind of red. This could go really badly, right. It's going to go either really badly or it's going to help her. So I give her just a few days worth right. And send her home and, uh, I'll be darned, but it helped. And I, you know, I gave her some more and she's in way better shape now. And I also suggested that she try a slightly. Meditation practice. But I mean, there was, I mean, it was, it was in those lines. And how was I able to use that in the clinic? Cause I, I happened to have those lines in my head because I'd read it that week. So we really do have to kind of cultivate that and have it in us to be able to see it out in the world.

Absolutely. And the more I read it, the more I realized it's describing conditions that I see every day. It's just about translating the language used into something, which sounds familiar to me, you know, realizing it. But I've been working on the tetany chapter of the gin, GUI that's chapter two. And you know, what is this tetany thing? And it's actually to do with. Rigidity and compulsion. So both ends of that, this idea that there are two different types, really the soft and the hard and, and how, how you would deal with it. And it's so interesting that immediately one of my patients walks in today and she says, the, now I've just started thinking she's somebody who has Ms. And it became really obvious that I needed to use one of the folders that I'd been working on. From the technique chapter of the gin way. And it's extraordinary the way that happens, that as soon as you work on something, the patient arrives.

Yeah. When, when we start to look at it, we can begin to see it. Can you tell us a little more about that patient and how you're treating her with this particular perspective? This is a

patient who has Ms. Or she has just been given a diagnosis. Although for a long time, she had a doctor who wouldn't give her a diagnosis because it seemed like there was just some brain inflammation that would happen and then go away again and then happen again. I'm basically treating her with a child who prescription. So it's but I've got the Gwalia way up at 30. That's the cause of the degree of upsurging T that she has, which is massive. This is just a huge prescription. I've what else have I got in there? Let's see, I've got hunty in there as an addition of 40 grams. And then the child who quantity up often are at the normal dosages. But again, Jenny is also way up, it's doubled at 12 and I'm treating her for this, these extraordinary sensations in her book. So she gets like really cold sensations and burning sensations, and then that's combined with dizziness. And if he takes the formula, all of the upsetting, she goes, it just goes. And if she doesn't becomes back again, And then I'll have to say, you have to look at these. You have to look at your patients in the context of their lives as well. And not just CGI fund is something that's going to solve everything because she's somebody who's trying to do something that is impossible until she stops trying to do that. It's going to be difficult for her to get better.

What do you mean she's trying to do something impossible.

She's running. Um, an autistic company that cannot run in the way that it's running. And I can't really say any more because issues, but it's, it's something which is really wonderful what she's doing, but the funding is not really there. And yeah, it's a complicated issue. It's one of those things that I think that our lives and our health a completely. They're completely entwined. Somehow you can take herbs and it will make you feel better, but unless you actually address the cause of what's happening, you are not going to get completely better.

I see this all the time. I see it all the time that sometimes people come in and they've got this thing and they go, this is the thing that's wrong with me. And yet, sometimes the thing that I'm using air quotes here, the thing that's wrong with them in some ways is the thing that's right about them.

Yeah. Absolutely. Strength and weakness in the same place.

Yeah. You know, it's like some people have a real superpower because they're very sensitive. It makes them a great artist or a great writer or wonderful pot, you know, whatever. But that sensitivity also. I mean, they think they're broken because of their sensitivity and yet it's the source of so much of their generativity.

That's absolutely true. But you know, this particular patient I've been working with her now for about two years. And partly I think that the hubs has made her able to continue doing what she's doing. And then I think, oh, that's an interesting one. Isn't it? Should she have been able to, but then the say

I have had the same thought run through my mind. Am I helping them or hurting them by helping them to get through this thing? That's hurting them. Yes. But yeah, again again, who am I to say?

Exactly. So if someone comes to me for Herb's and my hopes, man, and feel better, that's what I can do is give them hopes and I will always do my absolute best. To make themselves feel as better as they can, but you know, this is another thing with the gym fan. What, how me doing training is different from otherwise looking at hubs is that somehow supports the body's own ability to make itself well, and I think that's because going back to what I was talking about at the beginning, it's because it really starts in the title. I mean, if I'm looking at this formula that I've given this particular patient, I'm talking about, there are quite a lot of tight in Herb's in there supporting everything underlying everything. And if we can get somebody tie into work, well, it's a digestion to work well and the body fluids to be nourished and generated, then the person can make themselves. If the conditions are right in their life. And that that's the way I work with the rest of my practices, where with the way I work with acupuncture and healing, I also do. So I love that about Jane fund, that here has this focus.

Well, you know, it reminds me a bit, I mean, when I hear you say the TaiYin, I mean, I immediately think of the digestive system as well. I mean, the lungs to some degree in what they do. But primarily the digestive system. And it makes me think about Lee dong your end, you know, and, and the earth school. I mean, here's another echo. Here's another doctor in another dynasty, hundreds of years later, looking at something similar.

Yes, indeed. And of course Lee doorman would have been absolutely familiar with the shun and the jingle. Otherwise, he could never have written the formulas that he broke.

So, so what is that about? Uh, uh, artists, all artists steal, really great artists, steal shamelessly,

and everyone stands on the shoulders of the people that went before them. We do. And that's how it is, you know, lead on you. And there's a fantastic, he's a fantastic doctor. I love formulas. The thing I like about the Shanghai and the functional and approach is that when I'm trying to teach students how to prescribe to any. It gives a deal limited number of hubs and formulas. And it gives a really clear system about how to use them. It says, you know, if you've got a Taiyang TaiYin together, you treat from the TaiYin, except if there's upsurge in Chine or excessive pain, that's really clear if you feel Taiyang a Taiyang Yangming together, you treat from the Taiyang. And then you can do with the Yangming possibly at the same time or possibly it will just go away on its own cord. So I'm very, very clear. And as a teacher, I really like that. And as a practitioner, I really

like that. Well, as a practitioner, it's a lifesaver because so often we see these concurrent situations. And it's like, okay, great. I see these two concurrent situations, but where do I begin? How do I start to untie this? Not

exactly. Exactly. And we find that to treat from the TaiYin and the Taiyang is repeated throughout the Shanahan in about, I don't know, six or seven clauses. So it was a really important thing. And of course, then you realize that that's because you have to stop loss of body fluids. So you've got to generate the body fluids and then you can do anything. And that goes back to the Taiyang. It sounds

like you have studied this long enough and deep enough and use it in your clinic and have enough experience that there's a few sort of axioms, I guess you could say. I mean, you just rattled a few off to us about, oh, there's this there's that this is where you become. Yes,

I think that's probably true. I've been doing this now since 2014. So where are we now? We're in 2018. So it's four years. And previous to that, I already knew my herbs and formulas really I've been teaching them for 10 years and more so. Yeah, I think I do begin to know it and I use it every week in clinic and I teach her an apprentice. Training in clinic every week. So what that does is it gives us a chance to look at things as a group and to discuss things and to discuss things clinically, you know, the symptoms could be this, or perhaps there could be that, well, we'll try this. And then if this happens, we'll know it wasn't, you know, Yeah. You have an idea. You don't always precisely know cause you don't always have the exact symptom picture or all the symptoms. Sometimes you have to take a punt on it and say, okay, no, I think it's this. And you have to know your flight to the mast and give the formula and then you get the feedback and then you know

exactly. And then you know what to do. I had a teacher when I was in school. Who said to us one day, he said, you'll know, you really know an earth, or you really know a formula when you have used it and it's worked and you've used it and it hasn't. And you know why?

Yes, exactly. When somebody has a reaction and you can read that formula and you can say, okay, the reaction is because of this whole. Like I had a patient the other day. She has the beginnings of Parkinson's and I was using non good movie. Now the longer, really were 15 each, which is the standard dosage at a certain point. I raised them and then she had heavy feelings in her legs and I read that formula and there was nothing else in it that could have done that. And as soon as I put the longer, really back down to 15, it was for. So, you know, that kind of thing, you learn that by clinic, that's absolutely the only way of learning.

Yeah. It takes a bit of courage to do this work, courage and attentiveness to what we're doing. You know, we're going to be wrong a lot of the time.

It's reasonably robot. I think it's like, you can be more or less. Right. And you'll get a fairly good result if you're absolutely right. You get an amazing result. It that's when you get like the keys in the lock and it turns, and it gives that satisfying click. And that's quite a lot of the time you get it more or less. Right. And then the patient is enough better that the thing has stopped bothering. That is also right. And if you've got it completely wrong, then the patients really will feel terrible, but you know why,

and then you can do something about it. And then hopefully you've learned something about the formula that you gave them.

And that's what obviously happened at the time of John, John gin, because he is always saying. You know, if this, this, and this happens because the doctor has inappropriately sweated or purged or inappropriate, he done something or else, then you do this. Then you use this formula. So like every other line is about how to deal with the top two, doing something wrong.

Maybe the shotgun lunch should be renamed. You know there, I mean, there is the classic of difficulties. Maybe we should call the Shanghai one, the classic of mistakes. Yeah,

it is quite funny. I could still be here again. I use the Chinese nutritional strategies app to answer the question. What foods can I recommend for my patients and insomnia? The answer drawn from the Chinese medical classic texts are beef liver. Beats chicken, eggs hops, Lily bulbs. Log-ins low deseed mulberries, oysters, rationales, spinach wi and yogurt. The Chinese nutritional strategies app has hundreds of clinical indications like insomnia and its database of more than 300 KM foods. This is along with our temperature flavor, actions, notes, seasonal recommendations, and differential diagnosis. This database is searchable by any of these criteria and sorting through it allows the practitioner to compile a list of recommended foods and then share those recommendations via email, or as a hard copy with the patient, more information is available@thechinesenutritionapp.com.

I want to come back just for a moment to. You mentioned a little while ago, that there was a formula that you used for this person with Ms. And a, you really bumped up the great sugar in it. So glacier is an interesting thing. It's a food grade herbs. It's used a lot in cooking in baking. Everybody's familiar with cinnamon and it's so common. I think it might be easy to write off what a powerful medicinal it actually is. I'd like to get your, hit your riff on wager and what it does, what it does really well. And also some cautions that people might want to use around its use. Again, it's a very common substance, but I, you know, there's contra-indications so could you give us a little riff on, uh, on cinnamon? Sure.

So, um, cinnamon tree is great. It warms the interior in order to help the body release the exterior. So that's the first thing it does. And there is very specific dosages for equations. So in that instance, you use 10 grams don't problem. Secondly, it descends the upsurging of Chine as you were talking about, and that's the And in that case, you'd have to increase the dosage to 15 grams at least, but you can increase it to 15 or 18 or 20 or 24. Normally I don't go up for both 24. This one that I just quoted was a very exceptional one. So that's absurd GT. The third thing that it does is it stops pain and it stops pain. His pain from an exterior central. And the most pain actually has an exterior component at least. And Qualia is absolutely amazing sometimes in combination with some other hubs, of course. Um, so those are three main things. And the fourth thing is that it can actually help skin disease. If the skin disease is from an exterior syndrome. And that's another interesting one because it's what it's hot, but it can actually help skin disease, which is manifesting as hot on the skin. And I think the reason for that is that it's exterior heat. So the key things about, um, uh, TaiYin syndrome is that the heat is on the exterior. If there is heat, which normally manifest is FEMA, but could manifest as heat in the. Those are some of the ways that you can use. Gwalia what you have to remember is that it does slightly promotes sweating. So the Contra indication comes because of that, because if someone has a huge amount of body fluid deficiency, you don't want to promote sweating. And for that reason you have Which I think is closed 28, something like that, which is what you have a going to 10 pattern where you take out the equator and instead you put pooling and budgeting. And what that means is that there's body fluid deficiency in a Taiyang exterior. So it's Taiyang Taiyang but there is no, there is much more body fluid deficiency. And the other clues where that happens is it's in the jink way, chapter six, which is the Shula chapter. And let me think which line eight, where you have and then in that line, you also have origin. So Taiyang is for a Taiyang Yangming syndrome. So you've got to go to Taiyang plus Longo. It's the same class Princer by byway and the fruits, and by way, push that formula into the ShaoYin in the, in the six syndrome differentiation system and a ShaoYin is an exterior syndrome with underlying lack of body fluids. In that case, in the gin way, the Gwalia is removed because it was considered to promote body fluids to make, to promote sweating too much.

To use this particular system, this particular way of working, you really have to know what levels you're looking at. Oh, definitely. You've gotta be able to dial that piece in very, very clearly. You have to

learn the basic symptoms for each of the patterns preach the syndromes. So for each of the symptoms, then you have to learn the basic symptoms for each of the formula. You have to see how they match each other. You learn them both at once. Naturally arise is not

for me. Sure. It's sort of a union process. You're looking from two different perspectives to inform how they work together. Yeah. So we've been talking about this particular way of working and DJing fond these days. And there's a number of different streams of DJing font. It's not an unusual thing these days, people know about it, but most of us have walked through that gate of TCM, you know, much like a native tongue. I think it's harder to acquire other languages when our thought process defaults to the first thing. And, and I think it's the same with practicing medicine as well. Right? So for those of us that are looking to acquire this whole new perspective on the illness and treatment, like with this current, from Dr. Fong and Dr. Uh, Dr. Hall, what are some ways to approach the study of using the Jing Fong? You know, when our first language, so to speak is TCM, how do we learn to acquire this new line? Any thoughts on that? Any ways that people can start to work with this and, and, and have some direction that they can follow.

There are several possibilities around for the six syndrome differentiation system. Um, one is that, um, Dr. Robidoux is going around the world, teaching a comprehensive course in various different countries. So that's one possibility would be to attend one of those courses and to learn it in a, uh, kind of more structured form or in a structured form. So. Yeah, I'm just going through each of the syndromes and what the pictures are and what it means and all of that in a theoretical way. So that's one way of doing it. The second way of doing it is the way that I've decided to do it, which is to simply run a clinic and to open the clinic to people, to come along and work with me. And that way it's more of a kind of organic way of learning. The third thing is the resource materials that we have. So one of the things, one of the great gifts that Suzanne has given us is the translation of Dr. Phone's webinars. Those are available on DVD, so you can actually buy, you can buy a copy for me. I have copies here and you can actually immerse yourself in it and listen to him talking and listen to her, translating it. And, um, while the way, many happy hours. So that's the way of doing it. There is a lack of source text still. So we were very much hoping that Dr. Fund's yellow book will be translated into English. I don't know whether that's something that's on the codes. Maybe you'd like to do that.

That would only take about seven years of my life.

Exactly, exactly. So what we do at the moment we use the Wiseman translation, more or less of the texts in my apprenticeship, but we don't use the commentary because it's not always the same. W well,

in fact, the commentary can be very, very different while, and I've seen this in Dr. Fund's book, and I've seen this in Dr. Who's. They will take a line from the Shanghai online and give you a rough explanation of the line from the Shanghai online, which you can get from Wiseman. You can get it. I mean, there's lots of places. Yeah. But then they go and put their own spin on it, which kind of gets into some of this stuff that we're talking about. They've got their own, it's like, here's, here's what it says. Here's sort of the standard way of reading it and here's how we think about it. And then they go into. Like the stuff that we've been talking about and it's, it can be very, very different. It is.

And we, as a group, we're working on our interpretation, our commentaries of this, um, of the Chandon and the gin way, which maybe at some point will be published, who knows, but it's such an enormous job that, you know, to do something like that is yeah. But that's what we use day-to-day we use our own commentary and on our own commentary has been taken from dot from really mainly from the work that I've done with him in 2016 as well. So there are quite a number of us who went in and observed in his clinics and discussed things with him.

Would be very useful because when you look at any of the classical literature, there's always tons of commentary. I mean, doctors in Chinese medicine, talk to each other through the centuries through common.

Exactly. So when I'm thinking that we will just produce our own commentary on this 1,000, which will be informed partly by Dr. Fong, partly by, um, the translations of Suzanne will be due partly by our own clinical experience. And I think that's, you know, that is the only thing that anyone can ever do really is to present their experience and to acknowledge their teachers.

Oh, absolutely. Yeah. And to take the experience that we get from our teachers and clinic, meaning our patients.

Oh, definitely, definitely does absolutely vital. I mean, I, I w I will just say that sometimes is really works in clinic. Exactly how it's supposed to. So for example, I had a patient who came six weeks post viral, and she was absolutely exhausted with body pains all over. And she still had periodic heat sensations that could have been mistaken for hot flushes, but, um, I didn't think they were and for the head and dizziness and, and I have to say that five packs of plus language. And three packs of packs follow-up or the same formula, but with the tie who a normal dosage, instead of a raised dosage absolutely stopped it. It stopped it dead, and she's now completely fine. And that is somebody who could have just gone on and on and on and gone into chronic fatigue.

Well, chronic fatigue, or ended up with going to a conventional doctor and being prescribed some medicine for the rest of their life that would lock them into the situation and perhaps make it worse.

Absolutely, absolutely. Because it was just absolutely clear that there was still some kind of an infection going on that was subclinical in Western term. I really think that we shouldn't underestimate this medicine.

Well, there's a couple of times in this conversation we've talked about when the formula is right. It just clicks like a key and a lock. And I know I've had this experience I hear from, from the tone in your voice, you do to there, there's a part of us that goes, holy smokes. It worked that well, and it worked that quickly, but it really, really came. You

can, and that's, what's got to go into a book that kind of pace where it does exactly what it's supposed to. And on the other hand, what should go in is the person with Ms, where it works very, very well, but within a context that's really, really difficult. So both sides I think should go in because it's very easy just to put it.

Yeah, it's good to put in the tough ones. So when will you be publishing this?

So

we'll see, uh, great, well, Francis, I really enjoy the time that we've spent here together. Any closing remarks, anything else that you'd like to share with the listeners here before we say goodbye for today? Just that.

If anyone is wanting to study Chinese herbal medicine, this is a really good way to start because it's absolutely possible. And learnable and TCM is such a boss ocean. This it's huge. And I'm not saying that TCM doesn't work because it obviously does. But, you know, to find a teacher who will teach you, which formulas to use and which formulas not to use, it's almost impossible. There's just too many formulas and too many hubs. So this, it gives you a really good grounding in Chinese herbal medicine. And then after that, you can go off any way you like, you know, you can study any other doctor you like, but you'll absolutely know your basic curves. And the number of herbs that you need is less than a hundred. Acupuncturists and they want to study herbs. It's a really good way to start.

So this is sort of the lazy person's way to study herbs. You don't need to have as many, and you don't need to think as broadly.

Well, you could say that, but on the other hand, what you find is that the rigors of the diagnosis or anything but lazy as we've been talking about with. Learning the clauses and learning the syndromes and the patterns, and you really do need to learn them. So I think that my students would take exception with lazy.

It was sort of teasing, you know, and you mentioned this before, we were talking briefly about Lee and you were saying, yeah, his, a lot of his stuff came from the Shanghai loan. So if you know your Shanghai lunch, In many ways, it will help you to understand some of the other vast amount of formulas that are inside a TCM.

I think that's completely right. And of course, many of the TCM formulas, ocean hand, and formulas, it's a beautiful system and it works very well. And I would not have been able to sit here and say that to you. When I was doing TCM, I wouldn't have had the right.

Yeah, there are well, there's a real elegance to this work. Francis again. Thanks for making the time today.

Well, thank you very much, Michael. It's been a pleasure.