We are having the
privilege of actually participating in this great work of God.
And if we can actually get a picture
of the glory of that work, we can be almost desperate.
I just want to be part of this somehow.
To be part of this work of God.
Thanks, John, for joining us for,
talking about, Ephesians and the church and today,
maybe some of the hard issues with, the church.
how do we think about the church when there's abuse
or hurt or mediocrity or whatever?
but first, yeah.
Can you just give us a brief introduction
to who you are?
yes. John Coblentz, I, work at Faith builders
educational programs, serve there as pastor.
campus pastor and
an instructor and have really,
felt privileged, for the opportunities
that it affords to study, to learn,
constantly learning as I interact with students and, staff.
And this has been, been really enjoyable.
Yeah.
And I think maybe for, for this episode especially maybe some of your experience
before that where you spent time, you know, as a full time counselor,
might be relevant here just because of having seen
a lot of difficult situations close up and so on.
yeah.
I'll start with a quote, from the commentary you had written on Ephesians.
you say “The church in its current
state is not always glorious to us.
We are still imperfect.
Our music is at times off key.
Our theology is at times wide of the mark,
and our interactions with each other fall short of the love we profess.”
And, yeah, I mean, maybe starting with that.
How should we think about it when we feel like,
you know, our experience of church just feels mediocre?
Let's start there with the feeling mediocre.
We'll get into some of the, you know, even
worse situations later.
Well, I think we always have to realize that the church
is in the process of becoming, being shaped.
Jesus is constantly, working to bring us to maturity.
not only individually but as a group.
And Ephesians four focuses especially on that,
growing,
to the mature, to the perfect man it talks about there, or the mature,
but that's not, that's actually, the context is not about us individually.
It's about us as a group.
And so that’s the difficulty that we face sometimes.
And the reality is that we can get into
ruts, into
Ritualistic ways of living
in ways that they become empty of,
Christ's presence and, our interaction become routine.
And when our focus is no longer on Jesus properly,
we begin to act in ways that we shouldn't.
we had that in some of the New Testament churches and, Paul,
particularly, we have more record of his interaction
with the churches than some of the other apostles.
But, really addressed those things and called people to grow.
pointing out some of the characteristics
of carnality or, spiritual, immaturity.
And, so we face those things and,
it's easy in that then to become,
divisive, to want to separate.
at Corinth, we're of Paul.
We are of Apollos, and so his call to them was to come back to, really focusing
on Jesus and growing, actually personally growing, growing together as a group.
it is disconcerting.
It is, difficult where we feel
that the vitality is not there.
and I'm blessed when I hear people expressing
a yearning for more, a desire for a deeper, relationship.
But we have to be careful that we don't.
That in the process of yearning for that
with a group, we don't simply become critical and
neglect our personal pursuit
of Jesus and yearning for Him and love for Him
and allowing that actually to be contagious in the group.
yeah. That's helpful.
So you talked about the danger is becoming divisive.
And then you talked about, you know, people need to grow.
Churches need to go, need to grow.
Is that part of the key to responding well there is instead of,
you know, using all these imperfections as a reason
to be divisive and critical is to say, well,
I need to grow up.
I need to be contagious in my growing up
and actually,
just like a new believer needs to grow up, a church needs to grow up sometimes to.
Yes, I do think it is important.
It's so easy to see wrongs.
It doesn't take a lot of intelligence or spirituality
to see where people aren't what they ought to be.
It takes a significant maturity.
And you see Paul demonstrating this,
but it takes significant maturity to actually engage with immaturity
in ways that are actually helpful and draw people toward the Lord.
it has to be in our own hearts first.
And, they need to sense in us a deep love for Jesus.
And even in our, if we need to address things, in a group
or whatever, but that it is actually done out of our commitment to the good.
Not out of exasperation and,
criticism and just to point out wrong.
Yeah. That's
very helpful.
and that's the difficulty of growing up.
Yeah. That resonates.
So John was speaking, at our church here this weekend, and one of the things
you shared last night, you talked about stages of growth and the,
you know, the infant spiritually
who is hungry to take things in,
the young man talked about in first John, you know.
I write to you young men because you are strong and then you have
the picture of the mature Christian.
carrying a load on their back.
yeah, that resonates
with what you were saying about, you know, how do we address immaturity?
Because in the,
young man stage, and especially if we're talking
about, men,
you know, we talk about the young bucks
who really do have zeal for something.
but maybe don't know how to relate
to people who are less mature and come charging in.
And ya, part of that maturity.
And you drew that picture with the,
you know, the mature person
carrying a burden.
And I don't think this is the, a negative burden.
I think you're referring to them, you know, carrying responsibility for others.
And to me, that is a beautiful picture of
a mature person who can relate well to immaturity.
So, yeah,
let me just shift our focus here a little bit.
because
you know what really makes it hard for someone to have a positive view of church
and probably makes it hard to even think about, some of those
glorious things we talked about in Ephesians.
especially when there's been,
you know, physical abuse, sexual abuse or just abusive leadership.
And it's coming,
you know, coming from somebody who's an official leader in the church
or coming from somebody who's influential and the church, seems
to condone it.
Yeah, that's
just a very difficult, situation to be in.
can you
offer any perspective there?
Yes. Well, I certainly don't want to
in any way minimize the pain or,
sorrow or confusion of people who have experienced,
unhealthy or wrong things from leaders.
leaders are in a position where their words,
carry special weight, their attitudes.
and, John writes about,
Diotrephes who loved to have the preeminence.
And he cast people out of the church and so on.
And so there is that
difficulty, that,
pain that people experience at the hands of those who are in authority
that don't handle that in the way that Jesus calls us to.
I don't,
obviously situations vary considerably.
And so we have to, we have to think in terms of,
not being able to answer all of the particular questions.
but there are a number of questions that I personally have tried to ask,
when I've been in difficult situations, years ago in a situation
where the pastor, actually became very angry at me,
confessed this later, but at the time, this was a very painful, situation.
but one of the things as I sought the Lord, in that,
I think there is a time when we maybe need to move to another setting.
in fact, in this situation, I even asked him if I should,
and he thought it would be good if I would.
So we’d been seeking the Lord, trying to, understand his will.
And I remember specifically in praying, God spoke to me saying,
you don't leave until I've done everything in you I want to do.
And came to realize that God can actually do
good things in us, even in difficult circumstances. And,
in that case,
one of the things that he worked on me was my pride.
My, it was a, kind of an involved situation that I won't
necessarily go into.
But, I realized that God can actually do good things in us
if we are open to him, even through, painful, things from leadership.
and then I remember praying later
and it seemed that God said to me, don't leave
until I've done everything through you that I want to do.
And realizing also that, sometimes
in difficult relationships,
we easily think of it only in terms of ourselves.
And God may want to do something through us.
And I realize that this pastor maybe needed me
as much as I needed him, or that God is at least using him in my life.
And, I think in that we don't ever justify wrong.
We're not saying that that is right.
But we look to God and allow him and be sure
that our responses are being guided by him.
I think that
there are times when people, shift,
we go to a different congregation or whatever.
Sometimes that may be necessary, but not just jumping,
not just quickly doing that, seeing that this is guided by God.
I think we have to always be careful about making moves
that are primarily about what we don't want
and being sure that we are actually following God, coming to the church.
I think with the mentality, not primarily what can the church do for me,
but what can I do for the church if I can borrow, Kennedy’s
statement about our country.
So with that way of thinking,
the reality in a close relationship just as in a marriage
and a family, in the church, there will be offenses.
There will be things that happen that are hurtful that shouldn't happen.
That's the process of our growing, our becoming.
But how we respond to those things is so significant in terms of,
the ongoing effect on us that Jesus
has such grace that he can enable
these wounds actually to be part of our development
as we look to him.
Yeah.
And I think that is, that's so important
in thinking about this picture,
I guess I probably want to distinguish, though,
between some of these, you know, those very hard relational things.
And, you know, if you have a different kind of scenario where
somebody is being sexually abused or something and they need to,
I mean, need to find help,
very likely need to gain some distance.
I mean, obviously
the immediate thing there is help from safe people.
but then I'm thinking even afterwards, somebody, you know, maybe
looking back on that, maybe they're now protected from the abuser,
but it seems like that could so easily like,
you know, cloud your whole view of church.
Or you could feel like just,
wow, I've seen what happens in church, and I don't want any of it or whatever.
And obviously, you know, God wants a more redemptive
response than that.
But yeah, how would you maybe try to help
someone see past some of that trauma in the past or something?
Yes. Well, I certainly, do think that it's important
we don't, encourage people to stay in relationships
where, there is, crossing of boundaries like that in ways that are inappropriate.
There is the need actually to reinforce boundaries
and even create physical distance at times.
where there's been that kind of abuse
and people often do need
help with that to be able to work through those things.
there, you know, God in his grace does give us grace,
but he gives it oftentimes through other believers.
But becoming disillusioned.
I would again, just want to say that
we always
have to be careful that we don't in the pain
of a particular situation, don't lose sight of the bigger picture,
and that it is an incredible privilege to be part of God's work.
And that's where we have to come back to saying,
you know, if I had a terrible, circumstance, that that doesn't
mean that the whole plan is bad.
just as when we have a very difficult personal relationship with somebody
doesn't mean, well, I'm never going to have a relationship with anybody.
We realize that does happen.
but, we are,
we are having the privilege of actually participating in this great work of God.
And if we can actually get a picture of the glory
of that work, we're all, we can be almost desperate.
I just want to be part of this somehow.
To be part of this work of God.
again, not minimizing
pain and, confusion that people can have
in particular relationships and, don't want to minimize that,
but don't let that particular pain or difficulty obscure
who God is and what He's doing in Christ and our desire to be part of that.
Yeah, thanks for that.
yeah.
The other situation I wanted to think about,
with this theme of, think we're calling this episode
something like, you know, do bad churches glorify
God and
maybe the framing is not
quite the right framing, but, you know, thinking about
how do we approach it when we have those problems?
But yeah, another piece I'm thinking about here in terms of,
you know, my question, how do we think about churches
glorifying God when we see problems and so on?
is just a thing of,
you know, ethnic reconciliation or
how do we relate across cultural lines or whatever?
it seems like it's a big part of Ephesians
says God is bringing together people from everywhere.
Bringing them together. Now, walk in unity.
you know, some years ago, I think this was
maybe attributed to various speakers, but
mid 1900s in America, there was a saying, you know,
11:00 Sunday morning is the most segregated hour
of the week.
And this was, you know, pre-civil
rights movement when there was official segregation.
And they're saying, well, the churches are worse.
And of course,
we could get into a lot of debates and get a lot of opinions
if we tried to assess, you know, what exactly is the progress since then?
Because
some people would feel like there's been a lot of progress
and others would say there's not been much progress, and so on.
But still,
and I think about this in our circles.
So Anabaptist perspectives we’re representing a certain,
piece of the Anabaptist movement here.
And it seems like
we have a hard time relating at a church level,
you know, beyond
people who grew up in
conservative Anabaptist circles or similar circles.
and it makes me wonder sometimes.
And I think other people ask these questions like, well, you know, are we
missing something about these barriers or partitions
that Ephesians talks about Jesus taking down?
yeah.
How do you think about some of those issues?
Well, it's a big subject, and I don't know that I have the answer for all of them.
There is this tension between,
Between likeness and diversity.
And I think with the kind of,
disintegration,
or, breakup of the church,
we do find ourselves moving toward those that are like us.
I think that
even as conservative Anabaptists, we should think in terms of,
resisting at least some level of that,
like, just being like,
and especially if we make it
a fairly closed circle, that really bothers me.
I think we should
reach out to others and appreciate,
where God is working in the lives of others.
I don't know, that we can rectify
everything, there, but it's a joy to me when in our congregation,
we have people from different backgrounds, ethnic groups,
whether it's race or,
sometimes, we have a number of people from other backgrounds
and I find great joy in that, even where they bring perspectives
that are different from ours. And,
I just find a lot of, joy in seeing
how Jesus can bring people together from, different backgrounds.
I think the New Testament example of the Jew
Gentile coming together in one body is just amazing.
And we can, at least I can
look back and think about, well, they really should have done that.
And that was really good, you know?
And yet sometimes it seems like more minor differences today can keep us apart.
And yet the work of Jesus
is to bring diversity together and I think we should rejoice in that.
And actually, I don't know that we have to necessarily try to look for somebody
diverse, simply being open with, sharing, who Jesus is, with others.
And, we have in our congregation,
people from different backgrounds and I, for me,
it's a great joy.
And I think we should at least be open to those things.
And particularly, I think, making our entrance,
such that it's accessible to people,
there are values
that conservative anabaptists have that are good
values, family values, work values and those kinds of things.
But recognizing that people from different backgrounds can have,
some diversity there and we making it such that there is entrance possible
that actually they can come in and be part of us, one with us.
Maybe I could just, illustrate that in one way.
So our strong family values,
when we have people coming into our congregation, oftentimes
they don't have those, or they might come as parts of families or,
and I think it's important that we include them in our family structures
in ways that, that enable them to experience that closeness.
almost like adopting them into our families, structures
so that they don't just hear about our,
family gatherings and wish they could have them,
but that they can actually participate in those kinds of things.
That would be an illustration of ways that we can actually
pull them in in good ways.
And that's actually.
It's actually building a community.
When you do that. That's right. Yeah.
A sense of belonging, of identity and so on.
Yeah, yeah.
So I hear you talk about two pieces there.
The one is
the importance of, you know, thinking in terms of a local church
and thinking of openness.
and then the other one, which I think
could be local church, could also maybe have to do with just,
you know, who we associate with and so on.
You talked about resisting that pull toward,
you know, we associate with like and it becomes
exclusive or becomes insular or whatever.
yeah.
Do you have any practical, any other practical tools
or thoughts on
what that means to resist that?
I know in the last episode you talked about some of your purposes related to,
you know, not creating disunity and what you can do, individually.
yeah.
Any practical suggestions on resisting the.
Yeah, the pull to be insular, maybe.
Yeah I think again
the bottom line is a strong commitment to Jesus focus on Him
and encouraging it in anyone that we interact with who loves Jesus.
And in that, recognizing that,
there are times when they may,
we may find.
that their questions and their challenges actually are healthy for us,
where we actually have, barriers or hurdles.
Maybe would be the thing to them actually joining with us.
And there are times when, we may have
just grown up with something and it just seems like the right thing to do.
And their way of thinking is not that way.
And it can be on just practical.
everyday kinds of living where if unconsciously,
we're putting pressure on them.
I'm just saying, as an example, we often do our own gardening
and canning and things like that, and it's almost like,
it's almost a part of our faith.
And it can, it can seem like.
And people who don't maybe don't grow up with that, are,
feel like,
oh, if I need to join your congregation, I need to have a garden.
and, and it can, I remember
one, young lady that was, coming to our church.
One of the things that she struggled with was a different view on pets.
It was surprising to me because I knew that there were people in our church
who had pets.
But for her,
you know, having a dog in her house and so on is very, very significant.
And, somehow she had picked up that that wasn't really acceptable.
among us.
And I just think those kinds of things can be hurdles
that are just unconscious,
values or practices or...
and again, where we can focus on loving people
as they are, you know, there are a number of places
where I run into it,
would be on things like, government assistance, for example.
Our, the place where we live is a lot of people enjoy government assistance.
They take whatever they can.
And, even if that can help them
to avoid, or keeping their income low enough
that they can participate in some of those things.
And for us, we have a strong work ethic.
And, but again, we have, being able to interact with them
in ways that, help to nurture their love for Jesus.
And these kinds of things are things that we'll talk about and interact with.
But what we see them sometimes helping us
is they maybe push against some of the things that we are thinking.
We need to listen.
We need to care, need to, sometimes they actually will challenge us
and cause us to say, wait,
you know, maybe we're putting too much emphasis on something here.
yeah.
That's good. And these things apply.
We're talking cross-culturally here,
but these apply to relationships
in general as well, which is.
Yeah.
Yeah. Thank you for that.
yeah.
Any other thoughts on this theme?
with our question, do bad churches glorify God?
And if you want to tell me
that's a bad way to ask the question, you can do that too.
Yeah.
I want to say that again.
We really need to think in terms of
our gathering about more than just us
and, being,
making life comfortable for us
or solving our problems so that we enjoy church.
Church is not primarily about our enjoyment.
It is certainly about that.
But it's about the glory of God. And
so when we face problems thinking of it in terms of
how does this either contribute to the glory of God, how to solutions,
or and not necessarily just about how it affects us?
but that's it. That's a constant tension.
because God does want He cares about our comfort and enjoyment of church.
Right. But it's the bigger picture.
And, the reality is that sometimes we are detracting
from the glory of God, by the way that we're interacting.
I mean, you see that Paul's rebuke to the Corinthians, taking away from
the centrality of Jesus.
And, you know, he asked some very pointed questions.
Was Jesus or was Paul crucified for you?
you know, those kinds of questions and enabling them to see that
they were gathering around the wrong things there?
Yeah, that
seems like maybe
one of the biggest key applications
out of all of this
is remembering God doing something
that is bigger than just what am I receiving?
So yeah.
one thing I would say maybe additional is,
it's actually a concept I learned in a book on marriage,
but that marriage is not... marriage.
One of God's intention is that...
It's like a mirror for us.
My, as I interact closely with a marriage partner,
I actually begin to see myself and as part of God's design for my growth.
And I think we can apply the same to the church that, sometimes these difficulties
in relationships are actually God's way of showing ourselves,
showing us to ourselves.
and through that, we're opening ourselves to growth and to being refined.
And, again, being made more like Jesus in the process.
Yeah, yeah, that's a good picture.
And realistic.
Yeah.
Well, thank you for joining us for this episode.
Thank you for listening to this episode
and I hope it encouraged you in the situation you're in.
We'll also link here a similar interview we did with Dean Taylor, called Church
Is Hard, where he talked about various,
difficulties encountered in church life.
You can find that linked below.
You can also find a link to our website,
with links to essays, a little bit more about the ministry.
And all of our content.
The church in its current
state is not always glorious to us.
We are imperfect.
those are words from John Corgan's book on Ephesians.
And in this episode, he will share, how we can respond to that reality.
both are imperfections, as well as sin and abuse that can go on in the church.
Thank you for listening to this episode.
I hope you were encouraged to trust God
and contribute, to believers around you.
if you enjoyed this episode, you may also like an interview
we did with Dean Taylor, which was titled
Church is Hard.
The church is supposed to display God's glory.
but we also know well enough,
difficulties and failures, that often go with church.
so this episode, John Coblentz helps us to think about
how to respond, how to see God's glory,
in various kinds of info, cult situations or places
where the church doesn't seem to do well.
To this day.
There's the beautiful in Ephesians, and then there's us.
So I guess that's this episode.
Getting the reference.
Color reference again?
Yeah.
I'm not sure if I'll do these all at once or.
Or separate.
So I'm just going to go ahead and get one for each
episode just in case.
So long as I'm ahead of schedule,
it could be very efficient to do all these at once.