1 00:00:00,583 --> 00:00:01,835 We are having the 2 00:00:01,835 --> 00:00:05,171 privilege of actually participating in this great work of God. 3 00:00:05,672 --> 00:00:08,800 And if we can actually get a picture 4 00:00:08,800 --> 00:00:12,679 of the glory of that work, we can be almost desperate. 5 00:00:12,721 --> 00:00:15,640 I just want to be part of this somehow. 6 00:00:15,640 --> 00:00:17,308 To be part of this work of God. 7 00:00:23,648 --> 00:00:26,609 Thanks, John, for joining us for, 8 00:00:26,943 --> 00:00:31,656 talking about, Ephesians and the church and today, 9 00:00:31,656 --> 00:00:36,244 maybe some of the hard issues with, the church. 10 00:00:36,661 --> 00:00:40,665 how do we think about the church when there's abuse 11 00:00:40,665 --> 00:00:44,210 or hurt or mediocrity or whatever? 12 00:00:44,461 --> 00:00:45,628 but first, yeah. 13 00:00:45,628 --> 00:00:48,757 Can you just give us a brief introduction 14 00:00:48,882 --> 00:00:51,801 to who you are? 15 00:00:51,801 --> 00:00:55,555 yes. John Coblentz, I, work at Faith builders 16 00:00:55,555 --> 00:00:58,600 educational programs, serve there as pastor. 17 00:00:58,641 --> 00:01:00,393 campus pastor and 18 00:01:01,436 --> 00:01:05,023 an instructor and have really, 19 00:01:05,690 --> 00:01:08,318 felt privileged, for the opportunities 20 00:01:08,318 --> 00:01:11,279 that it affords to study, to learn, 21 00:01:11,529 --> 00:01:15,950 constantly learning as I interact with students and, staff. 22 00:01:15,950 --> 00:01:18,953 And this has been, been really enjoyable. 23 00:01:20,163 --> 00:01:20,371 Yeah. 24 00:01:20,371 --> 00:01:24,834 And I think maybe for, for this episode especially maybe some of your experience 25 00:01:24,834 --> 00:01:28,630 before that where you spent time, you know, as a full time counselor, 26 00:01:29,130 --> 00:01:32,801 might be relevant here just because of having seen 27 00:01:33,218 --> 00:01:36,971 a lot of difficult situations close up and so on. 28 00:01:37,889 --> 00:01:38,098 yeah. 29 00:01:38,098 --> 00:01:42,936 I'll start with a quote, from the commentary you had written on Ephesians. 30 00:01:43,978 --> 00:01:46,648 you say “The church in its current 31 00:01:46,648 --> 00:01:49,609 state is not always glorious to us. 32 00:01:49,692 --> 00:01:52,570 We are still imperfect. 33 00:01:52,570 --> 00:01:55,198 Our music is at times off key. 34 00:01:55,198 --> 00:01:58,076 Our theology is at times wide of the mark, 35 00:01:58,076 --> 00:02:01,412 and our interactions with each other fall short of the love we profess.” 36 00:02:05,750 --> 00:02:08,753 And, yeah, I mean, maybe starting with that. 37 00:02:09,212 --> 00:02:11,798 How should we think about it when we feel like, 38 00:02:11,798 --> 00:02:16,010 you know, our experience of church just feels mediocre? 39 00:02:16,052 --> 00:02:18,388 Let's start there with the feeling mediocre. 40 00:02:18,388 --> 00:02:21,349 We'll get into some of the, you know, even 41 00:02:21,891 --> 00:02:24,894 worse situations later. 42 00:02:25,019 --> 00:02:29,274 Well, I think we always have to realize that the church 43 00:02:29,274 --> 00:02:33,236 is in the process of becoming, being shaped. 44 00:02:33,236 --> 00:02:38,825 Jesus is constantly, working to bring us to maturity. 45 00:02:38,867 --> 00:02:41,661 not only individually but as a group. 46 00:02:41,661 --> 00:02:44,831 And Ephesians four focuses especially on that, 47 00:02:45,999 --> 00:02:47,959 growing, 48 00:02:47,959 --> 00:02:52,714 to the mature, to the perfect man it talks about there, or the mature, 49 00:02:53,089 --> 00:02:57,093 but that's not, that's actually, the context is not about us individually. 50 00:02:57,093 --> 00:02:58,678 It's about us as a group. 51 00:02:58,678 --> 00:03:02,056 And so that’s the difficulty that we face sometimes. 52 00:03:02,640 --> 00:03:05,602 And the reality is that we can get into 53 00:03:05,602 --> 00:03:08,688 ruts, into 54 00:03:10,023 --> 00:03:13,109 Ritualistic ways of living 55 00:03:13,109 --> 00:03:16,487 in ways that they become empty of, 56 00:03:17,447 --> 00:03:21,910 Christ's presence and, our interaction become routine. 57 00:03:21,910 --> 00:03:25,788 And when our focus is no longer on Jesus properly, 58 00:03:26,039 --> 00:03:29,000 we begin to act in ways that we shouldn't. 59 00:03:29,000 --> 00:03:33,630 we had that in some of the New Testament churches and, Paul, 60 00:03:34,172 --> 00:03:36,799 particularly, we have more record of his interaction 61 00:03:36,799 --> 00:03:38,885 with the churches than some of the other apostles. 62 00:03:38,885 --> 00:03:44,224 But, really addressed those things and called people to grow. 63 00:03:44,307 --> 00:03:48,061 pointing out some of the characteristics 64 00:03:48,811 --> 00:03:54,525 of carnality or, spiritual, immaturity. 65 00:03:55,526 --> 00:03:58,738 And, so we face those things and, 66 00:03:58,780 --> 00:04:02,242 it's easy in that then to become, 67 00:04:02,867 --> 00:04:06,496 divisive, to want to separate. 68 00:04:06,496 --> 00:04:09,415 at Corinth, we're of Paul. 69 00:04:09,415 --> 00:04:16,047 We are of Apollos, and so his call to them was to come back to, really focusing 70 00:04:16,047 --> 00:04:21,928 on Jesus and growing, actually personally growing, growing together as a group. 71 00:04:23,554 --> 00:04:25,390 it is disconcerting. 72 00:04:25,390 --> 00:04:28,434 It is, difficult where we feel 73 00:04:28,434 --> 00:04:31,854 that the vitality is not there. 74 00:04:32,230 --> 00:04:37,151 and I'm blessed when I hear people expressing 75 00:04:37,151 --> 00:04:42,407 a yearning for more, a desire for a deeper, relationship. 76 00:04:42,407 --> 00:04:45,410 But we have to be careful that we don't. 77 00:04:45,535 --> 00:04:48,037 That in the process of yearning for that 78 00:04:48,037 --> 00:04:51,958 with a group, we don't simply become critical and 79 00:04:53,001 --> 00:04:56,963 neglect our personal pursuit 80 00:04:56,963 --> 00:05:01,134 of Jesus and yearning for Him and love for Him 81 00:05:01,134 --> 00:05:04,804 and allowing that actually to be contagious in the group. 82 00:05:05,847 --> 00:05:07,098 yeah. That's helpful. 83 00:05:07,098 --> 00:05:11,102 So you talked about the danger is becoming divisive. 84 00:05:13,187 --> 00:05:17,483 And then you talked about, you know, people need to grow. 85 00:05:17,483 --> 00:05:20,111 Churches need to go, need to grow. 86 00:05:20,111 --> 00:05:25,992 Is that part of the key to responding well there is instead of, 87 00:05:27,118 --> 00:05:30,038 you know, using all these imperfections as a reason 88 00:05:30,038 --> 00:05:33,041 to be divisive and critical is to say, well, 89 00:05:34,000 --> 00:05:35,001 I need to grow up. 90 00:05:35,001 --> 00:05:38,004 I need to be contagious in my growing up 91 00:05:38,796 --> 00:05:41,257 and actually, 92 00:05:41,257 --> 00:05:44,677 just like a new believer needs to grow up, a church needs to grow up sometimes to. 93 00:05:45,428 --> 00:05:48,598 Yes, I do think it is important. 94 00:05:48,598 --> 00:05:51,642 It's so easy to see wrongs. 95 00:05:51,809 --> 00:05:55,396 It doesn't take a lot of intelligence or spirituality 96 00:05:55,396 --> 00:05:58,649 to see where people aren't what they ought to be. 97 00:05:59,567 --> 00:06:01,527 It takes a significant maturity. 98 00:06:01,527 --> 00:06:03,112 And you see Paul demonstrating this, 99 00:06:03,112 --> 00:06:07,950 but it takes significant maturity to actually engage with immaturity 100 00:06:07,950 --> 00:06:11,954 in ways that are actually helpful and draw people toward the Lord. 101 00:06:12,538 --> 00:06:14,624 it has to be in our own hearts first. 102 00:06:14,624 --> 00:06:18,419 And, they need to sense in us a deep love for Jesus. 103 00:06:18,419 --> 00:06:23,591 And even in our, if we need to address things, in a group 104 00:06:23,591 --> 00:06:28,930 or whatever, but that it is actually done out of our commitment to the good. 105 00:06:28,930 --> 00:06:30,890 Not out of exasperation and, 106 00:06:31,849 --> 00:06:36,145 criticism and just to point out wrong. 107 00:06:37,188 --> 00:06:39,107 Yeah. That's 108 00:06:39,107 --> 00:06:41,609 very helpful. 109 00:06:41,609 --> 00:06:44,320 and that's the difficulty of growing up. 110 00:06:44,320 --> 00:06:46,155 Yeah. That resonates. 111 00:06:46,155 --> 00:06:52,120 So John was speaking, at our church here this weekend, and one of the things 112 00:06:52,120 --> 00:06:56,416 you shared last night, you talked about stages of growth and the, 113 00:06:57,959 --> 00:07:00,920 you know, the infant spiritually 114 00:07:01,003 --> 00:07:03,798 who is hungry to take things in, 115 00:07:03,798 --> 00:07:07,844 the young man talked about in first John, you know. 116 00:07:08,177 --> 00:07:11,347 I write to you young men because you are strong and then you have 117 00:07:11,347 --> 00:07:14,350 the picture of the mature Christian. 118 00:07:17,061 --> 00:07:19,730 carrying a load on their back. 119 00:07:19,730 --> 00:07:20,481 yeah, that resonates 120 00:07:20,481 --> 00:07:23,693 with what you were saying about, you know, how do we address immaturity? 121 00:07:24,527 --> 00:07:27,196 Because in the, 122 00:07:27,196 --> 00:07:29,323 young man stage, and especially if we're talking 123 00:07:29,323 --> 00:07:32,326 about, men, 124 00:07:33,286 --> 00:07:36,289 you know, we talk about the young bucks 125 00:07:36,497 --> 00:07:39,500 who really do have zeal for something. 126 00:07:39,709 --> 00:07:43,212 but maybe don't know how to relate 127 00:07:43,212 --> 00:07:47,091 to people who are less mature and come charging in. 128 00:07:47,091 --> 00:07:48,801 And ya, part of that maturity. 129 00:07:48,801 --> 00:07:51,804 And you drew that picture with the, 130 00:07:52,221 --> 00:07:55,183 you know, the mature person 131 00:07:55,183 --> 00:07:56,184 carrying a burden. 132 00:07:56,184 --> 00:07:59,312 And I don't think this is the, a negative burden. 133 00:07:59,312 --> 00:08:04,192 I think you're referring to them, you know, carrying responsibility for others. 134 00:08:04,942 --> 00:08:07,945 And to me, that is a beautiful picture of 135 00:08:08,112 --> 00:08:11,115 a mature person who can relate well to immaturity. 136 00:08:13,659 --> 00:08:14,076 So, yeah, 137 00:08:14,076 --> 00:08:17,121 let me just shift our focus here a little bit. 138 00:08:18,664 --> 00:08:20,291 because 139 00:08:20,291 --> 00:08:24,337 you know what really makes it hard for someone to have a positive view of church 140 00:08:24,337 --> 00:08:27,673 and probably makes it hard to even think about, some of those 141 00:08:28,132 --> 00:08:30,218 glorious things we talked about in Ephesians. 142 00:08:31,177 --> 00:08:34,138 especially when there's been, 143 00:08:34,138 --> 00:08:38,768 you know, physical abuse, sexual abuse or just abusive leadership. 144 00:08:38,768 --> 00:08:40,269 And it's coming, 145 00:08:40,269 --> 00:08:42,647 you know, coming from somebody who's an official leader in the church 146 00:08:42,647 --> 00:08:45,650 or coming from somebody who's influential and the church, seems 147 00:08:45,650 --> 00:08:48,653 to condone it. 148 00:08:50,738 --> 00:08:51,155 Yeah, that's 149 00:08:51,155 --> 00:08:55,660 just a very difficult, situation to be in. 150 00:08:55,701 --> 00:08:57,495 can you 151 00:08:57,495 --> 00:09:00,581 offer any perspective there? 152 00:09:01,832 --> 00:09:05,127 Yes. Well, I certainly don't want to 153 00:09:05,127 --> 00:09:08,130 in any way minimize the pain or, 154 00:09:08,172 --> 00:09:12,468 sorrow or confusion of people who have experienced, 155 00:09:13,427 --> 00:09:18,558 unhealthy or wrong things from leaders. 156 00:09:18,558 --> 00:09:22,853 leaders are in a position where their words, 157 00:09:22,853 --> 00:09:26,148 carry special weight, their attitudes. 158 00:09:26,148 --> 00:09:29,694 and, John writes about, 159 00:09:29,777 --> 00:09:33,489 Diotrephes who loved to have the preeminence. 160 00:09:33,489 --> 00:09:36,909 And he cast people out of the church and so on. 161 00:09:36,909 --> 00:09:39,662 And so there is that 162 00:09:42,415 --> 00:09:43,833 difficulty, that, 163 00:09:43,833 --> 00:09:49,171 pain that people experience at the hands of those who are in authority 164 00:09:49,171 --> 00:09:52,842 that don't handle that in the way that Jesus calls us to. 165 00:09:54,218 --> 00:09:55,970 I don't, 166 00:09:55,970 --> 00:09:59,724 obviously situations vary considerably. 167 00:09:59,724 --> 00:10:04,270 And so we have to, we have to think in terms of, 168 00:10:04,312 --> 00:10:08,524 not being able to answer all of the particular questions. 169 00:10:09,400 --> 00:10:13,904 but there are a number of questions that I personally have tried to ask, 170 00:10:14,155 --> 00:10:18,951 when I've been in difficult situations, years ago in a situation 171 00:10:18,951 --> 00:10:23,998 where the pastor, actually became very angry at me, 172 00:10:24,040 --> 00:10:29,086 confessed this later, but at the time, this was a very painful, situation. 173 00:10:30,087 --> 00:10:33,466 but one of the things as I sought the Lord, in that, 174 00:10:33,549 --> 00:10:39,055 I think there is a time when we maybe need to move to another setting. 175 00:10:39,221 --> 00:10:42,224 in fact, in this situation, I even asked him if I should, 176 00:10:42,475 --> 00:10:45,019 and he thought it would be good if I would. 177 00:10:45,019 --> 00:10:49,482 So we’d been seeking the Lord, trying to, understand his will. 178 00:10:49,482 --> 00:10:54,612 And I remember specifically in praying, God spoke to me saying, 179 00:10:54,695 --> 00:10:58,699 you don't leave until I've done everything in you I want to do. 180 00:10:59,158 --> 00:11:02,745 And came to realize that God can actually do 181 00:11:02,745 --> 00:11:07,124 good things in us, even in difficult circumstances. And, 182 00:11:08,084 --> 00:11:09,293 in that case, 183 00:11:09,293 --> 00:11:12,588 one of the things that he worked on me was my pride. 184 00:11:12,588 --> 00:11:16,884 My, it was a, kind of an involved situation that I won't 185 00:11:16,884 --> 00:11:17,843 necessarily go into. 186 00:11:17,843 --> 00:11:22,014 But, I realized that God can actually do good things in us 187 00:11:22,014 --> 00:11:26,894 if we are open to him, even through, painful, things from leadership. 188 00:11:27,978 --> 00:11:30,981 and then I remember praying later 189 00:11:31,774 --> 00:11:35,569 and it seemed that God said to me, don't leave 190 00:11:35,569 --> 00:11:38,781 until I've done everything through you that I want to do. 191 00:11:39,407 --> 00:11:43,160 And realizing also that, sometimes 192 00:11:44,120 --> 00:11:46,706 in difficult relationships, 193 00:11:46,706 --> 00:11:51,252 we easily think of it only in terms of ourselves. 194 00:11:51,252 --> 00:11:55,464 And God may want to do something through us. 195 00:11:55,464 --> 00:11:59,260 And I realize that this pastor maybe needed me 196 00:11:59,260 --> 00:12:03,848 as much as I needed him, or that God is at least using him in my life. 197 00:12:03,848 --> 00:12:07,977 And, I think in that we don't ever justify wrong. 198 00:12:07,977 --> 00:12:10,730 We're not saying that that is right. 199 00:12:10,730 --> 00:12:13,607 But we look to God and allow him and be sure 200 00:12:13,607 --> 00:12:17,069 that our responses are being guided by him. 201 00:12:18,112 --> 00:12:20,197 I think that 202 00:12:20,197 --> 00:12:23,242 there are times when people, shift, 203 00:12:23,784 --> 00:12:27,329 we go to a different congregation or whatever. 204 00:12:27,538 --> 00:12:30,916 Sometimes that may be necessary, but not just jumping, 205 00:12:30,916 --> 00:12:34,003 not just quickly doing that, seeing that this is guided by God. 206 00:12:34,003 --> 00:12:38,507 I think we have to always be careful about making moves 207 00:12:38,966 --> 00:12:42,011 that are primarily about what we don't want 208 00:12:42,887 --> 00:12:47,767 and being sure that we are actually following God, coming to the church. 209 00:12:47,767 --> 00:12:52,188 I think with the mentality, not primarily what can the church do for me, 210 00:12:52,188 --> 00:12:56,567 but what can I do for the church if I can borrow, Kennedy’s 211 00:12:57,943 --> 00:13:00,738 statement about our country. 212 00:13:00,738 --> 00:13:03,824 So with that way of thinking, 213 00:13:03,866 --> 00:13:08,537 the reality in a close relationship just as in a marriage 214 00:13:08,537 --> 00:13:12,082 and a family, in the church, there will be offenses. 215 00:13:12,082 --> 00:13:16,045 There will be things that happen that are hurtful that shouldn't happen. 216 00:13:16,045 --> 00:13:19,048 That's the process of our growing, our becoming. 217 00:13:19,673 --> 00:13:23,385 But how we respond to those things is so significant in terms of, 218 00:13:23,469 --> 00:13:27,223 the ongoing effect on us that Jesus 219 00:13:28,224 --> 00:13:31,227 has such grace that he can enable 220 00:13:32,144 --> 00:13:35,898 these wounds actually to be part of our development 221 00:13:35,898 --> 00:13:38,901 as we look to him. 222 00:13:39,693 --> 00:13:40,069 Yeah. 223 00:13:40,069 --> 00:13:43,072 And I think that is, that's so important 224 00:13:44,198 --> 00:13:47,201 in thinking about this picture, 225 00:13:48,494 --> 00:13:49,912 I guess I probably want to distinguish, though, 226 00:13:49,912 --> 00:13:53,290 between some of these, you know, those very hard relational things. 227 00:13:53,290 --> 00:13:56,919 And, you know, if you have a different kind of scenario where 228 00:13:58,128 --> 00:14:01,215 somebody is being sexually abused or something and they need to, 229 00:14:02,466 --> 00:14:04,927 I mean, need to find help, 230 00:14:04,927 --> 00:14:07,930 very likely need to gain some distance. 231 00:14:08,681 --> 00:14:12,226 I mean, obviously 232 00:14:12,226 --> 00:14:15,271 the immediate thing there is help from safe people. 233 00:14:16,188 --> 00:14:18,732 but then I'm thinking even afterwards, somebody, you know, maybe 234 00:14:18,732 --> 00:14:23,988 looking back on that, maybe they're now protected from the abuser, 235 00:14:25,030 --> 00:14:27,157 but it seems like that could so easily like, 236 00:14:29,118 --> 00:14:32,121 you know, cloud your whole view of church. 237 00:14:32,246 --> 00:14:34,623 Or you could feel like just, 238 00:14:34,623 --> 00:14:38,419 wow, I've seen what happens in church, and I don't want any of it or whatever. 239 00:14:39,336 --> 00:14:42,339 And obviously, you know, God wants a more redemptive 240 00:14:43,549 --> 00:14:44,717 response than that. 241 00:14:44,717 --> 00:14:48,095 But yeah, how would you maybe try to help 242 00:14:48,095 --> 00:14:52,433 someone see past some of that trauma in the past or something? 243 00:14:53,934 --> 00:14:56,812 Yes. Well, I certainly, do think that it's important 244 00:14:56,812 --> 00:15:01,025 we don't, encourage people to stay in relationships 245 00:15:01,025 --> 00:15:06,322 where, there is, crossing of boundaries like that in ways that are inappropriate. 246 00:15:06,322 --> 00:15:09,199 There is the need actually to reinforce boundaries 247 00:15:09,199 --> 00:15:12,202 and even create physical distance at times. 248 00:15:13,037 --> 00:15:15,956 where there's been that kind of abuse 249 00:15:15,956 --> 00:15:19,460 and people often do need 250 00:15:19,460 --> 00:15:22,546 help with that to be able to work through those things. 251 00:15:23,172 --> 00:15:26,967 there, you know, God in his grace does give us grace, 252 00:15:26,967 --> 00:15:29,970 but he gives it oftentimes through other believers. 253 00:15:30,512 --> 00:15:32,765 But becoming disillusioned. 254 00:15:32,765 --> 00:15:35,684 I would again, just want to say that 255 00:15:36,769 --> 00:15:37,603 we always 256 00:15:37,603 --> 00:15:40,773 have to be careful that we don't in the pain 257 00:15:40,773 --> 00:15:44,610 of a particular situation, don't lose sight of the bigger picture, 258 00:15:44,944 --> 00:15:49,531 and that it is an incredible privilege to be part of God's work. 259 00:15:49,531 --> 00:15:52,409 And that's where we have to come back to saying, 260 00:15:52,409 --> 00:15:55,996 you know, if I had a terrible, circumstance, that that doesn't 261 00:15:55,996 --> 00:15:58,999 mean that the whole plan is bad. 262 00:15:59,291 --> 00:16:04,964 just as when we have a very difficult personal relationship with somebody 263 00:16:04,964 --> 00:16:07,967 doesn't mean, well, I'm never going to have a relationship with anybody. 264 00:16:08,008 --> 00:16:11,011 We realize that does happen. 265 00:16:11,470 --> 00:16:13,764 but, we are, 266 00:16:13,764 --> 00:16:18,519 we are having the privilege of actually participating in this great work of God. 267 00:16:18,978 --> 00:16:22,856 And if we can actually get a picture of the glory 268 00:16:22,856 --> 00:16:25,985 of that work, we're all, we can be almost desperate. 269 00:16:26,026 --> 00:16:28,988 I just want to be part of this somehow. 270 00:16:28,988 --> 00:16:31,115 To be part of this work of God. 271 00:16:31,115 --> 00:16:34,118 again, not minimizing 272 00:16:34,284 --> 00:16:38,664 pain and, confusion that people can have 273 00:16:38,664 --> 00:16:44,211 in particular relationships and, don't want to minimize that, 274 00:16:44,211 --> 00:16:49,425 but don't let that particular pain or difficulty obscure 275 00:16:50,050 --> 00:16:54,388 who God is and what He's doing in Christ and our desire to be part of that. 276 00:16:56,181 --> 00:16:58,976 Yeah, thanks for that. 277 00:16:58,976 --> 00:16:59,309 yeah. 278 00:16:59,309 --> 00:17:02,938 The other situation I wanted to think about, 279 00:17:03,772 --> 00:17:07,234 with this theme of, think we're calling this episode 280 00:17:07,234 --> 00:17:10,404 something like, you know, do bad churches glorify 281 00:17:10,404 --> 00:17:13,407 God and 282 00:17:13,866 --> 00:17:16,118 maybe the framing is not 283 00:17:16,118 --> 00:17:19,121 quite the right framing, but, you know, thinking about 284 00:17:19,580 --> 00:17:22,583 how do we approach it when we have those problems? 285 00:17:22,624 --> 00:17:25,961 But yeah, another piece I'm thinking about here in terms of, 286 00:17:25,961 --> 00:17:30,299 you know, my question, how do we think about churches 287 00:17:30,299 --> 00:17:33,677 glorifying God when we see problems and so on? 288 00:17:33,886 --> 00:17:36,889 is just a thing of, 289 00:17:37,890 --> 00:17:40,893 you know, ethnic reconciliation or 290 00:17:41,018 --> 00:17:44,063 how do we relate across cultural lines or whatever? 291 00:17:45,481 --> 00:17:47,858 it seems like it's a big part of Ephesians 292 00:17:47,858 --> 00:17:50,903 says God is bringing together people from everywhere. 293 00:17:50,903 --> 00:17:52,654 Bringing them together. Now, walk in unity. 294 00:17:53,655 --> 00:17:57,451 you know, some years ago, I think this was 295 00:17:58,452 --> 00:18:01,455 maybe attributed to various speakers, but 296 00:18:02,122 --> 00:18:05,000 mid 1900s in America, there was a saying, you know, 297 00:18:05,000 --> 00:18:08,003 11:00 Sunday morning is the most segregated hour 298 00:18:09,338 --> 00:18:11,215 of the week. 299 00:18:11,215 --> 00:18:13,217 And this was, you know, pre-civil 300 00:18:13,217 --> 00:18:16,178 rights movement when there was official segregation. 301 00:18:16,512 --> 00:18:19,515 And they're saying, well, the churches are worse. 302 00:18:20,307 --> 00:18:23,310 And of course, 303 00:18:23,477 --> 00:18:27,397 we could get into a lot of debates and get a lot of opinions 304 00:18:27,397 --> 00:18:31,443 if we tried to assess, you know, what exactly is the progress since then? 305 00:18:32,069 --> 00:18:33,779 Because 306 00:18:33,779 --> 00:18:35,864 some people would feel like there's been a lot of progress 307 00:18:35,864 --> 00:18:38,867 and others would say there's not been much progress, and so on. 308 00:18:41,745 --> 00:18:42,454 But still, 309 00:18:42,454 --> 00:18:45,707 and I think about this in our circles. 310 00:18:45,707 --> 00:18:48,710 So Anabaptist perspectives we’re representing a certain, 311 00:18:48,752 --> 00:18:52,422 piece of the Anabaptist movement here. 312 00:18:53,966 --> 00:18:57,469 And it seems like 313 00:18:58,387 --> 00:19:01,390 we have a hard time relating at a church level, 314 00:19:02,141 --> 00:19:04,893 you know, beyond 315 00:19:04,893 --> 00:19:07,396 people who grew up in 316 00:19:07,396 --> 00:19:10,399 conservative Anabaptist circles or similar circles. 317 00:19:10,899 --> 00:19:14,111 and it makes me wonder sometimes. 318 00:19:14,111 --> 00:19:17,573 And I think other people ask these questions like, well, you know, are we 319 00:19:18,073 --> 00:19:21,785 missing something about these barriers or partitions 320 00:19:21,785 --> 00:19:24,788 that Ephesians talks about Jesus taking down? 321 00:19:26,999 --> 00:19:27,332 yeah. 322 00:19:27,332 --> 00:19:30,335 How do you think about some of those issues? 323 00:19:31,378 --> 00:19:36,258 Well, it's a big subject, and I don't know that I have the answer for all of them. 324 00:19:36,258 --> 00:19:39,636 There is this tension between, 325 00:19:40,721 --> 00:19:46,602 Between likeness and diversity. 326 00:19:46,852 --> 00:19:51,023 And I think with the kind of, 327 00:19:51,148 --> 00:19:54,109 disintegration, 328 00:19:54,443 --> 00:19:57,529 or, breakup of the church, 329 00:19:58,363 --> 00:20:02,576 we do find ourselves moving toward those that are like us. 330 00:20:03,744 --> 00:20:05,120 I think that 331 00:20:05,120 --> 00:20:10,042 even as conservative Anabaptists, we should think in terms of, 332 00:20:10,417 --> 00:20:13,629 resisting at least some level of that, 333 00:20:15,214 --> 00:20:17,007 like, just being like, 334 00:20:17,007 --> 00:20:20,928 and especially if we make it 335 00:20:20,928 --> 00:20:24,890 a fairly closed circle, that really bothers me. 336 00:20:24,890 --> 00:20:26,934 I think we should 337 00:20:26,934 --> 00:20:30,103 reach out to others and appreciate, 338 00:20:30,520 --> 00:20:33,190 where God is working in the lives of others. 339 00:20:33,190 --> 00:20:37,903 I don't know, that we can rectify 340 00:20:37,903 --> 00:20:43,825 everything, there, but it's a joy to me when in our congregation, 341 00:20:43,825 --> 00:20:47,371 we have people from different backgrounds, ethnic groups, 342 00:20:48,413 --> 00:20:50,582 whether it's race or, 343 00:20:50,582 --> 00:20:55,921 sometimes, we have a number of people from other backgrounds 344 00:20:55,921 --> 00:20:59,758 and I find great joy in that, even where they bring perspectives 345 00:20:59,758 --> 00:21:02,761 that are different from ours. And, 346 00:21:03,345 --> 00:21:06,473 I just find a lot of, joy in seeing 347 00:21:07,391 --> 00:21:12,562 how Jesus can bring people together from, different backgrounds. 348 00:21:12,562 --> 00:21:16,191 I think the New Testament example of the Jew 349 00:21:16,191 --> 00:21:20,279 Gentile coming together in one body is just amazing. 350 00:21:21,238 --> 00:21:23,282 And we can, at least I can 351 00:21:23,282 --> 00:21:27,411 look back and think about, well, they really should have done that. 352 00:21:27,411 --> 00:21:28,954 And that was really good, you know? 353 00:21:28,954 --> 00:21:35,377 And yet sometimes it seems like more minor differences today can keep us apart. 354 00:21:36,003 --> 00:21:38,422 And yet the work of Jesus 355 00:21:38,422 --> 00:21:43,302 is to bring diversity together and I think we should rejoice in that. 356 00:21:43,302 --> 00:21:46,972 And actually, I don't know that we have to necessarily try to look for somebody 357 00:21:46,972 --> 00:21:53,270 diverse, simply being open with, sharing, who Jesus is, with others. 358 00:21:53,270 --> 00:21:56,732 And, we have in our congregation, 359 00:21:56,732 --> 00:22:00,610 people from different backgrounds and I, for me, 360 00:22:02,154 --> 00:22:03,572 it's a great joy. 361 00:22:03,572 --> 00:22:06,450 And I think we should at least be open to those things. 362 00:22:06,450 --> 00:22:09,953 And particularly, I think, making our entrance, 363 00:22:10,704 --> 00:22:14,458 such that it's accessible to people, 364 00:22:15,000 --> 00:22:17,586 there are values 365 00:22:17,586 --> 00:22:19,796 that conservative anabaptists have that are good 366 00:22:19,796 --> 00:22:23,884 values, family values, work values and those kinds of things. 367 00:22:23,967 --> 00:22:30,015 But recognizing that people from different backgrounds can have, 368 00:22:30,015 --> 00:22:34,603 some diversity there and we making it such that there is entrance possible 369 00:22:34,603 --> 00:22:39,232 that actually they can come in and be part of us, one with us. 370 00:22:40,942 --> 00:22:43,612 Maybe I could just, illustrate that in one way. 371 00:22:43,612 --> 00:22:46,448 So our strong family values, 372 00:22:46,448 --> 00:22:49,284 when we have people coming into our congregation, oftentimes 373 00:22:49,284 --> 00:22:53,872 they don't have those, or they might come as parts of families or, 374 00:22:53,872 --> 00:22:59,002 and I think it's important that we include them in our family structures 375 00:22:59,002 --> 00:23:02,756 in ways that, that enable them to experience that closeness. 376 00:23:04,299 --> 00:23:08,845 almost like adopting them into our families, structures 377 00:23:08,845 --> 00:23:11,807 so that they don't just hear about our, 378 00:23:12,015 --> 00:23:14,476 family gatherings and wish they could have them, 379 00:23:14,476 --> 00:23:17,479 but that they can actually participate in those kinds of things. 380 00:23:17,854 --> 00:23:20,857 That would be an illustration of ways that we can actually 381 00:23:21,108 --> 00:23:24,111 pull them in in good ways. 382 00:23:24,403 --> 00:23:27,406 And that's actually. 383 00:23:27,781 --> 00:23:29,324 It's actually building a community. 384 00:23:29,324 --> 00:23:30,617 When you do that. That's right. Yeah. 385 00:23:32,619 --> 00:23:35,831 A sense of belonging, of identity and so on. 386 00:23:37,707 --> 00:23:38,500 Yeah, yeah. 387 00:23:38,500 --> 00:23:40,794 So I hear you talk about two pieces there. 388 00:23:40,794 --> 00:23:42,712 The one is 389 00:23:42,712 --> 00:23:45,549 the importance of, you know, thinking in terms of a local church 390 00:23:45,549 --> 00:23:48,552 and thinking of openness. 391 00:23:48,635 --> 00:23:51,638 and then the other one, which I think 392 00:23:52,681 --> 00:23:55,684 could be local church, could also maybe have to do with just, 393 00:23:56,143 --> 00:23:57,894 you know, who we associate with and so on. 394 00:23:57,894 --> 00:24:01,314 You talked about resisting that pull toward, 395 00:24:02,899 --> 00:24:06,945 you know, we associate with like and it becomes 396 00:24:07,779 --> 00:24:12,617 exclusive or becomes insular or whatever. 397 00:24:14,703 --> 00:24:15,078 yeah. 398 00:24:15,078 --> 00:24:19,040 Do you have any practical, any other practical tools 399 00:24:19,040 --> 00:24:22,043 or thoughts on 400 00:24:23,003 --> 00:24:25,172 what that means to resist that? 401 00:24:25,172 --> 00:24:28,675 I know in the last episode you talked about some of your purposes related to, 402 00:24:29,009 --> 00:24:34,222 you know, not creating disunity and what you can do, individually. 403 00:24:35,515 --> 00:24:35,724 yeah. 404 00:24:35,724 --> 00:24:38,894 Any practical suggestions on resisting the. 405 00:24:40,270 --> 00:24:43,273 Yeah, the pull to be insular, maybe. 406 00:24:43,315 --> 00:24:45,901 Yeah I think again 407 00:24:45,901 --> 00:24:53,533 the bottom line is a strong commitment to Jesus focus on Him 408 00:24:53,533 --> 00:24:58,914 and encouraging it in anyone that we interact with who loves Jesus. 409 00:24:59,456 --> 00:25:02,542 And in that, recognizing that, 410 00:25:03,585 --> 00:25:06,755 there are times when they may, 411 00:25:06,755 --> 00:25:09,758 we may find. 412 00:25:10,675 --> 00:25:15,138 that their questions and their challenges actually are healthy for us, 413 00:25:15,388 --> 00:25:20,310 where we actually have, barriers or hurdles. 414 00:25:20,310 --> 00:25:24,606 Maybe would be the thing to them actually joining with us. 415 00:25:25,106 --> 00:25:29,110 And there are times when, we may have 416 00:25:30,612 --> 00:25:33,949 just grown up with something and it just seems like the right thing to do. 417 00:25:33,949 --> 00:25:37,452 And their way of thinking is not that way. 418 00:25:37,452 --> 00:25:39,704 And it can be on just practical. 419 00:25:39,704 --> 00:25:44,042 everyday kinds of living where if unconsciously, 420 00:25:44,042 --> 00:25:46,127 we're putting pressure on them. 421 00:25:46,127 --> 00:25:49,881 I'm just saying, as an example, we often do our own gardening 422 00:25:49,881 --> 00:25:53,260 and canning and things like that, and it's almost like, 423 00:25:54,010 --> 00:25:55,845 it's almost a part of our faith. 424 00:25:55,845 --> 00:25:58,139 And it can, it can seem like. 425 00:25:58,139 --> 00:26:02,644 And people who don't maybe don't grow up with that, are, 426 00:26:03,853 --> 00:26:04,396 feel like, 427 00:26:04,396 --> 00:26:07,941 oh, if I need to join your congregation, I need to have a garden. 428 00:26:08,233 --> 00:26:11,111 and, and it can, I remember 429 00:26:11,111 --> 00:26:15,198 one, young lady that was, coming to our church. 430 00:26:15,240 --> 00:26:18,493 One of the things that she struggled with was a different view on pets. 431 00:26:18,493 --> 00:26:22,664 It was surprising to me because I knew that there were people in our church 432 00:26:22,664 --> 00:26:23,290 who had pets. 433 00:26:23,290 --> 00:26:23,957 But for her, 434 00:26:23,957 --> 00:26:27,168 you know, having a dog in her house and so on is very, very significant. 435 00:26:27,168 --> 00:26:31,047 And, somehow she had picked up that that wasn't really acceptable. 436 00:26:31,256 --> 00:26:32,007 among us. 437 00:26:32,007 --> 00:26:35,010 And I just think those kinds of things can be hurdles 438 00:26:35,093 --> 00:26:37,679 that are just unconscious, 439 00:26:37,679 --> 00:26:42,350 values or practices or... 440 00:26:42,350 --> 00:26:46,146 and again, where we can focus on loving people 441 00:26:46,146 --> 00:26:50,317 as they are, you know, there are a number of places 442 00:26:51,651 --> 00:26:53,820 where I run into it, 443 00:26:53,820 --> 00:26:57,657 would be on things like, government assistance, for example. 444 00:26:57,657 --> 00:27:04,122 Our, the place where we live is a lot of people enjoy government assistance. 445 00:27:04,164 --> 00:27:05,457 They take whatever they can. 446 00:27:05,457 --> 00:27:09,419 And, even if that can help them 447 00:27:09,419 --> 00:27:12,756 to avoid, or keeping their income low enough 448 00:27:12,756 --> 00:27:15,925 that they can participate in some of those things. 449 00:27:15,925 --> 00:27:19,012 And for us, we have a strong work ethic. 450 00:27:19,012 --> 00:27:23,516 And, but again, we have, being able to interact with them 451 00:27:23,516 --> 00:27:29,606 in ways that, help to nurture their love for Jesus. 452 00:27:29,606 --> 00:27:34,235 And these kinds of things are things that we'll talk about and interact with. 453 00:27:34,235 --> 00:27:38,114 But what we see them sometimes helping us 454 00:27:38,156 --> 00:27:41,993 is they maybe push against some of the things that we are thinking. 455 00:27:41,993 --> 00:27:42,952 We need to listen. 456 00:27:42,952 --> 00:27:46,915 We need to care, need to, sometimes they actually will challenge us 457 00:27:46,915 --> 00:27:48,291 and cause us to say, wait, 458 00:27:48,291 --> 00:27:50,919 you know, maybe we're putting too much emphasis on something here. 459 00:27:53,171 --> 00:27:53,463 yeah. 460 00:27:53,463 --> 00:27:56,466 That's good. And these things apply. 461 00:27:56,508 --> 00:27:59,511 We're talking cross-culturally here, 462 00:27:59,719 --> 00:28:02,180 but these apply to relationships 463 00:28:02,180 --> 00:28:05,183 in general as well, which is. 464 00:28:05,725 --> 00:28:07,686 Yeah. 465 00:28:07,686 --> 00:28:09,688 Yeah. Thank you for that. 466 00:28:09,688 --> 00:28:10,939 yeah. 467 00:28:10,939 --> 00:28:14,192 Any other thoughts on this theme? 468 00:28:14,275 --> 00:28:18,446 with our question, do bad churches glorify God? 469 00:28:18,947 --> 00:28:19,698 And if you want to tell me 470 00:28:19,698 --> 00:28:22,701 that's a bad way to ask the question, you can do that too. 471 00:28:23,618 --> 00:28:24,202 Yeah. 472 00:28:24,202 --> 00:28:26,329 I want to say that again. 473 00:28:26,329 --> 00:28:29,416 We really need to think in terms of 474 00:28:30,542 --> 00:28:33,962 our gathering about more than just us 475 00:28:33,962 --> 00:28:36,965 and, being, 476 00:28:38,133 --> 00:28:41,344 making life comfortable for us 477 00:28:41,344 --> 00:28:44,681 or solving our problems so that we enjoy church. 478 00:28:45,056 --> 00:28:48,226 Church is not primarily about our enjoyment. 479 00:28:48,309 --> 00:28:49,894 It is certainly about that. 480 00:28:49,894 --> 00:28:52,897 But it's about the glory of God. And 481 00:28:53,064 --> 00:28:56,317 so when we face problems thinking of it in terms of 482 00:28:57,110 --> 00:29:01,030 how does this either contribute to the glory of God, how to solutions, 483 00:29:01,114 --> 00:29:06,035 or and not necessarily just about how it affects us? 484 00:29:06,786 --> 00:29:09,330 but that's it. That's a constant tension. 485 00:29:09,330 --> 00:29:16,087 because God does want He cares about our comfort and enjoyment of church. 486 00:29:16,546 --> 00:29:19,299 Right. But it's the bigger picture. 487 00:29:19,299 --> 00:29:23,428 And, the reality is that sometimes we are detracting 488 00:29:23,428 --> 00:29:26,055 from the glory of God, by the way that we're interacting. 489 00:29:26,055 --> 00:29:30,852 I mean, you see that Paul's rebuke to the Corinthians, taking away from 490 00:29:32,061 --> 00:29:33,563 the centrality of Jesus. 491 00:29:33,563 --> 00:29:36,983 And, you know, he asked some very pointed questions. 492 00:29:36,983 --> 00:29:39,903 Was Jesus or was Paul crucified for you? 493 00:29:39,903 --> 00:29:43,698 you know, those kinds of questions and enabling them to see that 494 00:29:44,032 --> 00:29:47,035 they were gathering around the wrong things there? 495 00:29:49,329 --> 00:29:51,247 Yeah, that 496 00:29:51,247 --> 00:29:53,500 seems like maybe 497 00:29:53,500 --> 00:29:55,585 one of the biggest key applications 498 00:29:55,585 --> 00:29:58,588 out of all of this 499 00:29:58,713 --> 00:30:00,590 is remembering God doing something 500 00:30:00,590 --> 00:30:03,593 that is bigger than just what am I receiving? 501 00:30:04,803 --> 00:30:05,887 So yeah. 502 00:30:05,887 --> 00:30:08,890 one thing I would say maybe additional is, 503 00:30:09,390 --> 00:30:13,603 it's actually a concept I learned in a book on marriage, 504 00:30:13,603 --> 00:30:17,065 but that marriage is not... marriage. 505 00:30:17,065 --> 00:30:18,858 One of God's intention is that... 506 00:30:18,858 --> 00:30:20,276 It's like a mirror for us. 507 00:30:20,276 --> 00:30:23,988 My, as I interact closely with a marriage partner, 508 00:30:23,988 --> 00:30:27,909 I actually begin to see myself and as part of God's design for my growth. 509 00:30:28,284 --> 00:30:32,372 And I think we can apply the same to the church that, sometimes these difficulties 510 00:30:32,372 --> 00:30:35,625 in relationships are actually God's way of showing ourselves, 511 00:30:36,292 --> 00:30:38,044 showing us to ourselves. 512 00:30:38,044 --> 00:30:44,008 and through that, we're opening ourselves to growth and to being refined. 513 00:30:44,008 --> 00:30:49,430 And, again, being made more like Jesus in the process. 514 00:30:51,432 --> 00:30:54,978 Yeah, yeah, that's a good picture. 515 00:30:54,978 --> 00:30:57,981 And realistic. 516 00:30:58,940 --> 00:30:59,399 Yeah. 517 00:30:59,399 --> 00:31:02,402 Well, thank you for joining us for this episode. 518 00:31:04,237 --> 00:31:07,365 Thank you for listening to this episode 519 00:31:07,490 --> 00:31:10,910 and I hope it encouraged you in the situation you're in. 520 00:31:11,744 --> 00:31:17,709 We'll also link here a similar interview we did with Dean Taylor, called Church 521 00:31:17,709 --> 00:31:21,045 Is Hard, where he talked about various, 522 00:31:21,045 --> 00:31:24,048 difficulties encountered in church life. 523 00:31:24,465 --> 00:31:27,468 You can find that linked below. 524 00:31:27,802 --> 00:31:30,555 You can also find a link to our website, 525 00:31:30,555 --> 00:31:34,726 with links to essays, a little bit more about the ministry. 526 00:31:35,685 --> 00:31:37,687 And all of our content. 527 00:32:42,418 --> 00:32:43,670 The church in its current 528 00:32:43,670 --> 00:32:46,673 state is not always glorious to us. 529 00:32:46,714 --> 00:32:48,841 We are imperfect. 530 00:32:48,841 --> 00:32:52,595 those are words from John Corgan's book on Ephesians. 531 00:32:53,346 --> 00:32:58,810 And in this episode, he will share, how we can respond to that reality. 532 00:32:58,810 --> 00:33:05,191 both are imperfections, as well as sin and abuse that can go on in the church. 533 00:33:12,907 --> 00:33:14,701 Thank you for listening to this episode. 534 00:33:14,701 --> 00:33:17,787 I hope you were encouraged to trust God 535 00:33:17,787 --> 00:33:20,873 and contribute, to believers around you. 536 00:33:21,541 --> 00:33:25,169 if you enjoyed this episode, you may also like an interview 537 00:33:25,169 --> 00:33:29,173 we did with Dean Taylor, which was titled 538 00:33:29,173 --> 00:33:32,176 Church is Hard. 539 00:34:28,858 --> 00:34:31,360 The church is supposed to display God's glory. 540 00:34:31,360 --> 00:34:34,655 but we also know well enough, 541 00:34:34,655 --> 00:34:38,576 difficulties and failures, that often go with church. 542 00:34:39,535 --> 00:34:43,581 so this episode, John Coblentz helps us to think about 543 00:34:44,207 --> 00:34:46,626 how to respond, how to see God's glory, 544 00:34:46,626 --> 00:34:51,130 in various kinds of info, cult situations or places 545 00:34:51,130 --> 00:34:54,133 where the church doesn't seem to do well. 546 00:39:09,096 --> 00:39:11,932 To this day. 547 00:39:11,932 --> 00:39:14,935 There's the beautiful in Ephesians, and then there's us. 548 00:39:15,811 --> 00:39:18,814 So I guess that's this episode. 549 00:39:25,946 --> 00:39:27,740 Getting the reference. 550 00:39:27,740 --> 00:39:29,700 Color reference again? 551 00:39:29,700 --> 00:39:30,076 Yeah. 552 00:39:30,076 --> 00:39:32,578 I'm not sure if I'll do these all at once or. 553 00:39:35,122 --> 00:39:35,790 Or separate. 554 00:39:35,790 --> 00:39:38,793 So I'm just going to go ahead and get one for each 555 00:39:38,876 --> 00:39:41,879 episode just in case. 556 00:39:45,800 --> 00:39:46,884 So long as I'm ahead of schedule, 557 00:39:46,884 --> 00:39:48,886 it could be very efficient to do all these at once.