Speaker: 00:00:00

We are having the

00:00:01,835 --> 00:00:05,171

privilege of actually participating

in this great work of God.

00:00:05,672 --> 00:00:08,800

And if we can actually get a picture

00:00:08,800 --> 00:00:12,679

of the glory of that work,

we can be almost desperate.

00:00:12,721 --> 00:00:15,640

I just want to be part of this somehow.

00:00:15,640 --> 00:00:17,308

To be part of this work of God.

00:00:23,648 --> 00:00:26,609

Thanks, John, for joining us for,

00:00:26,943 --> 00:00:31,656

talking about,

Ephesians and the church and today,

00:00:31,656 --> 00:00:36,244

maybe some of the hard issues

with, the church.

00:00:36,661 --> 00:00:40,665

how do we think about the church

when there's abuse

00:00:40,665 --> 00:00:44,210

or hurt or mediocrity or whatever?

00:00:44,461 --> 00:00:45,628

but first, yeah.

00:00:45,628 --> 00:00:48,757

Can you just give us a brief introduction

00:00:48,882 --> 00:00:51,801

to who you are?

00:00:51,801 --> 00:00:55,555

yes. John Coblentz,

I, work at Faith builders

00:00:55,555 --> 00:00:58,600

educational programs,

serve there as pastor.

00:00:58,641 --> 00:01:00,393

campus pastor and

00:01:01,436 --> 00:01:05,023

an instructor and have really,

00:01:05,690 --> 00:01:08,318

felt privileged, for the opportunities

00:01:08,318 --> 00:01:11,279

that it affords to study, to learn,

00:01:11,529 --> 00:01:15,950

constantly learning

as I interact with students and, staff.

00:01:15,950 --> 00:01:18,953

And this has been, been really enjoyable.

00:01:20,163 --> 00:01:20,371

Yeah.

00:01:20,371 --> 00:01:24,834

And I think maybe for, for this episode

especially maybe some of your experience

00:01:24,834 --> 00:01:28,630

before that where you spent time,

you know, as a full time counselor,

00:01:29,130 --> 00:01:32,801

might be relevant here

just because of having seen

00:01:33,218 --> 00:01:36,971

a lot of difficult situations

close up and so on.

00:01:37,889 --> 00:01:38,098

yeah.

00:01:38,098 --> 00:01:42,936

I'll start with a quote, from the

commentary you had written on Ephesians.

00:01:43,978 --> 00:01:46,648

you say “The church in its current

00:01:46,648 --> 00:01:49,609

state is not always glorious to us.

00:01:49,692 --> 00:01:52,570

We are still imperfect.

00:01:52,570 --> 00:01:55,198

Our music is at times off key.

00:01:55,198 --> 00:01:58,076

Our theology is at times wide of the mark,

00:01:58,076 --> 00:02:01,412

and our interactions with each other

fall short of the love we profess.”

00:02:05,750 --> 00:02:08,753

And, yeah,

I mean, maybe starting with that.

00:02:09,212 --> 00:02:11,798

How should we think about it

when we feel like,

00:02:11,798 --> 00:02:16,010

you know, our experience of church

just feels mediocre?

00:02:16,052 --> 00:02:18,388

Let's start there with the feeling

mediocre.

00:02:18,388 --> 00:02:21,349

We'll get into some of the, you know, even

00:02:21,891 --> 00:02:24,894

worse situations later.

00:02:25,019 --> 00:02:29,274

Well, I think we always have to realize

that the church

00:02:29,274 --> 00:02:33,236

is in the process of becoming,

being shaped.

00:02:33,236 --> 00:02:38,825

Jesus is constantly,

working to bring us to maturity.

00:02:38,867 --> 00:02:41,661

not only individually but as a group.

00:02:41,661 --> 00:02:44,831

And Ephesians four focuses

especially on that,

00:02:45,999 --> 00:02:47,959

growing,

00:02:47,959 --> 00:02:52,714

to the mature, to the perfect man

it talks about there, or the mature,

00:02:53,089 --> 00:02:57,093

but that's not, that's actually,

the context is not about us individually.

00:02:57,093 --> 00:02:58,678

It's about us as a group.

00:02:58,678 --> 00:03:02,056

And so that’s the difficulty

that we face sometimes.

00:03:02,640 --> 00:03:05,602

And the reality is that we can get into

00:03:05,602 --> 00:03:08,688

ruts, into

00:03:10,023 --> 00:03:13,109

Ritualistic ways of living

00:03:13,109 --> 00:03:16,487

in ways that they become empty of,

00:03:17,447 --> 00:03:21,910

Christ's presence

and, our interaction become routine.

00:03:21,910 --> 00:03:25,788

And when our focus is no longer on

Jesus properly,

00:03:26,039 --> 00:03:29,000

we begin to act in ways that we shouldn't.

00:03:29,000 --> 00:03:33,630

we had that in some of the New Testament

churches and, Paul,

00:03:34,172 --> 00:03:36,799

particularly,

we have more record of his interaction

00:03:36,799 --> 00:03:38,885

with the churches

than some of the other apostles.

00:03:38,885 --> 00:03:44,224

But, really addressed those things

and called people to grow.

00:03:44,307 --> 00:03:48,061

pointing out some of the characteristics

00:03:48,811 --> 00:03:54,525

of carnality or, spiritual, immaturity.

00:03:55,526 --> 00:03:58,738

And, so we face those things and,

00:03:58,780 --> 00:04:02,242

it's easy in that then to become,

00:04:02,867 --> 00:04:06,496

divisive, to want to separate.

00:04:06,496 --> 00:04:09,415

at Corinth, we're of Paul.

00:04:09,415 --> 00:04:16,047

We are of Apollos, and so his call to them

was to come back to, really focusing

00:04:16,047 --> 00:04:21,928

on Jesus and growing, actually personally

growing, growing together as a group.

00:04:23,554 --> 00:04:25,390

it is disconcerting.

00:04:25,390 --> 00:04:28,434

It is, difficult where we feel

00:04:28,434 --> 00:04:31,854

that the vitality is not there.

00:04:32,230 --> 00:04:37,151

and I'm blessed

when I hear people expressing

00:04:37,151 --> 00:04:42,407

a yearning for more, a desire

for a deeper, relationship.

00:04:42,407 --> 00:04:45,410

But we have to be careful that we don't.

00:04:45,535 --> 00:04:48,037

That in the process of yearning for that

00:04:48,037 --> 00:04:51,958

with a group,

we don't simply become critical and

00:04:53,001 --> 00:04:56,963

neglect our personal pursuit

00:04:56,963 --> 00:05:01,134

of Jesus

and yearning for Him and love for Him

00:05:01,134 --> 00:05:04,804

and allowing that actually

to be contagious in the group.

00:05:05,847 --> 00:05:07,098

yeah. That's helpful.

00:05:07,098 --> 00:05:11,102

So you talked about

the danger is becoming divisive.

00:05:13,187 --> 00:05:17,483

And then you talked about,

you know, people need to grow.

00:05:17,483 --> 00:05:20,111

Churches need to go, need to grow.

00:05:20,111 --> 00:05:25,992

Is that part of the key to responding

well there is instead of,

00:05:27,118 --> 00:05:30,038

you know, using all these imperfections

as a reason

00:05:30,038 --> 00:05:33,041

to be divisive

and critical is to say, well,

00:05:34,000 --> 00:05:35,001

I need to grow up.

00:05:35,001 --> 00:05:38,004

I need to be contagious in my growing up

00:05:38,796 --> 00:05:41,257

and actually,

00:05:41,257 --> 00:05:44,677

just like a new believer needs to grow up,

a church needs to grow up sometimes to.

00:05:45,428 --> 00:05:48,598

Yes, I do think it is important.

00:05:48,598 --> 00:05:51,642

It's so easy to see wrongs.

00:05:51,809 --> 00:05:55,396

It doesn't take a lot of intelligence

or spirituality

00:05:55,396 --> 00:05:58,649

to see where people aren't

what they ought to be.

00:05:59,567 --> 00:06:01,527

It takes a significant maturity.

00:06:01,527 --> 00:06:03,112

And you see Paul demonstrating this,

00:06:03,112 --> 00:06:07,950

but it takes significant maturity

to actually engage with immaturity

100

00:06:07,950 --> 00:06:11,954

in ways that are actually helpful

and draw people toward the Lord.

101

00:06:12,538 --> 00:06:14,624

it has to be in our own hearts first.

102

00:06:14,624 --> 00:06:18,419

And, they need to sense in us

a deep love for Jesus.

103

00:06:18,419 --> 00:06:23,591

And even in our,

if we need to address things, in a group

104

00:06:23,591 --> 00:06:28,930

or whatever, but that it is actually done

out of our commitment to the good.

105

00:06:28,930 --> 00:06:30,890

Not out of exasperation and,

106

00:06:31,849 --> 00:06:36,145

criticism and just to point out wrong.

107

00:06:37,188 --> 00:06:39,107

Yeah. That's

108

00:06:39,107 --> 00:06:41,609

very helpful.

109

00:06:41,609 --> 00:06:44,320

and that's the difficulty of growing up.

110

00:06:44,320 --> 00:06:46,155

Yeah. That resonates.

111

00:06:46,155 --> 00:06:52,120

So John was speaking, at our church

here this weekend, and one of the things

112

00:06:52,120 --> 00:06:56,416

you shared last night,

you talked about stages of growth and the,

113

00:06:57,959 --> 00:07:00,920

you know, the infant spiritually

114

00:07:01,003 --> 00:07:03,798

who is hungry to take things in,

115

00:07:03,798 --> 00:07:07,844

the young man talked about in first John,

you know.

116

00:07:08,177 --> 00:07:11,347

I write to you young men

because you are strong and then you have

117

00:07:11,347 --> 00:07:14,350

the picture of the mature Christian.

118

00:07:17,061 --> 00:07:19,730

carrying a load on their back.

119

00:07:19,730 --> 00:07:20,481

yeah, that resonates

120

00:07:20,481 --> 00:07:23,693

with what you were saying about, you know,

how do we address immaturity?

121

00:07:24,527 --> 00:07:27,196

Because in the,

122

00:07:27,196 --> 00:07:29,323

young man stage,

and especially if we're talking

123

00:07:29,323 --> 00:07:32,326

about, men,

124

00:07:33,286 --> 00:07:36,289

you know, we talk about the young bucks

125

00:07:36,497 --> 00:07:39,500

who really do have zeal for something.

126

00:07:39,709 --> 00:07:43,212

but maybe don't know how to relate

127

00:07:43,212 --> 00:07:47,091

to people who are less mature

and come charging in.

128

00:07:47,091 --> 00:07:48,801

And ya, part of that maturity.

129

00:07:48,801 --> 00:07:51,804

And you drew that picture with the,

130

00:07:52,221 --> 00:07:55,183

you know, the mature person

131

00:07:55,183 --> 00:07:56,184

carrying a burden.

132

00:07:56,184 --> 00:07:59,312

And I don't think this is the,

a negative burden.

133

00:07:59,312 --> 00:08:04,192

I think you're referring to them, you

know, carrying responsibility for others.

134

00:08:04,942 --> 00:08:07,945

And to me, that is a beautiful picture of

135

00:08:08,112 --> 00:08:11,115

a mature person who can relate

well to immaturity.

136

00:08:13,659 --> 00:08:14,076

So, yeah,

137

00:08:14,076 --> 00:08:17,121

let me just shift our focus here

a little bit.

138

00:08:18,664 --> 00:08:20,291

because

139

00:08:20,291 --> 00:08:24,337

you know what really makes it hard for

someone to have a positive view of church

140

00:08:24,337 --> 00:08:27,673

and probably makes it hard

to even think about, some of those

141

00:08:28,132 --> 00:08:30,218

glorious things

we talked about in Ephesians.

142

00:08:31,177 --> 00:08:34,138

especially when there's been,

143

00:08:34,138 --> 00:08:38,768

you know, physical abuse, sexual abuse

or just abusive leadership.

144

00:08:38,768 --> 00:08:40,269

And it's coming,

145

00:08:40,269 --> 00:08:42,647

you know, coming from somebody

who's an official leader in the church

146

00:08:42,647 --> 00:08:45,650

or coming from somebody who's influential

and the church, seems

147

00:08:45,650 --> 00:08:48,653

to condone it.

148

00:08:50,738 --> 00:08:51,155

Yeah, that's

149

00:08:51,155 --> 00:08:55,660

just a very difficult,

situation to be in.

150

00:08:55,701 --> 00:08:57,495

can you

151

00:08:57,495 --> 00:09:00,581

offer any perspective there?

152

00:09:01,832 --> 00:09:05,127

Yes. Well, I certainly don't want to

153

00:09:05,127 --> 00:09:08,130

in any way minimize the pain or,

154

00:09:08,172 --> 00:09:12,468

sorrow or confusion of people

who have experienced,

155

00:09:13,427 --> 00:09:18,558

unhealthy or wrong things from leaders.

156

00:09:18,558 --> 00:09:22,853

leaders are in a position

where their words,

157

00:09:22,853 --> 00:09:26,148

carry special weight, their attitudes.

158

00:09:26,148 --> 00:09:29,694

and, John writes about,

159

00:09:29,777 --> 00:09:33,489

Diotrephes

who loved to have the preeminence.

160

00:09:33,489 --> 00:09:36,909

And he cast people out of the church

and so on.

161

00:09:36,909 --> 00:09:39,662

And so there is that

162

00:09:42,415 --> 00:09:43,833

difficulty, that,

163

00:09:43,833 --> 00:09:49,171

pain that people experience at the hands

of those who are in authority

164

00:09:49,171 --> 00:09:52,842

that don't handle that

in the way that Jesus calls us to.

165

00:09:54,218 --> 00:09:55,970

I don't,

166

00:09:55,970 --> 00:09:59,724

obviously situations vary considerably.

167

00:09:59,724 --> 00:10:04,270

And so we have to,

we have to think in terms of,

168

00:10:04,312 --> 00:10:08,524

not being able to answer

all of the particular questions.

169

00:10:09,400 --> 00:10:13,904

but there are a number of questions

that I personally have tried to ask,

170

00:10:14,155 --> 00:10:18,951

when I've been in difficult

situations, years ago in a situation

171

00:10:18,951 --> 00:10:23,998

where the pastor,

actually became very angry at me,

172

00:10:24,040 --> 00:10:29,086

confessed this later, but at the time,

this was a very painful, situation.

173

00:10:30,087 --> 00:10:33,466

but one of the things

as I sought the Lord, in that,

174

00:10:33,549 --> 00:10:39,055

I think there is a time when we maybe

need to move to another setting.

175

00:10:39,221 --> 00:10:42,224

in fact, in this situation,

I even asked him if I should,

176

00:10:42,475 --> 00:10:45,019

and he thought it would be good

if I would.

177

00:10:45,019 --> 00:10:49,482

So we’d been seeking the Lord,

trying to, understand his will.

178

00:10:49,482 --> 00:10:54,612

And I remember specifically in praying,

God spoke to me saying,

179

00:10:54,695 --> 00:10:58,699

you don't leave until

I've done everything in you I want to do.

180

00:10:59,158 --> 00:11:02,745

And came to realize

that God can actually do

181

00:11:02,745 --> 00:11:07,124

good things in us,

even in difficult circumstances. And,

182

00:11:08,084 --> 00:11:09,293

in that case,

183

00:11:09,293 --> 00:11:12,588

one of the things that he worked on me

was my pride.

184

00:11:12,588 --> 00:11:16,884

My, it was a, kind of

an involved situation that I won't

185

00:11:16,884 --> 00:11:17,843

necessarily go into.

186

00:11:17,843 --> 00:11:22,014

But, I realized that God can actually do

good things in us

187

00:11:22,014 --> 00:11:26,894

if we are open to him, even through,

painful, things from leadership.

188

00:11:27,978 --> 00:11:30,981

and then I remember praying later

189

00:11:31,774 --> 00:11:35,569

and it seemed that God said to me,

don't leave

190

00:11:35,569 --> 00:11:38,781

until I've done everything through you

that I want to do.

191

00:11:39,407 --> 00:11:43,160

And realizing also that, sometimes

192

00:11:44,120 --> 00:11:46,706

in difficult relationships,

193

00:11:46,706 --> 00:11:51,252

we easily think of it

only in terms of ourselves.

194

00:11:51,252 --> 00:11:55,464

And God

may want to do something through us.

195

00:11:55,464 --> 00:11:59,260

And I realize that this pastor

maybe needed me

196

00:11:59,260 --> 00:12:03,848

as much as I needed him, or that God

is at least using him in my life.

197

00:12:03,848 --> 00:12:07,977

And, I think in that

we don't ever justify wrong.

198

00:12:07,977 --> 00:12:10,730

We're not saying that that is right.

199

00:12:10,730 --> 00:12:13,607

But we look to God and allow him

and be sure

200

00:12:13,607 --> 00:12:17,069

that our responses

are being guided by him.

201

00:12:18,112 --> 00:12:20,197

I think that

202

00:12:20,197 --> 00:12:23,242

there are times when people, shift,

203

00:12:23,784 --> 00:12:27,329

we go to a different congregation

or whatever.

204

00:12:27,538 --> 00:12:30,916

Sometimes that may be necessary,

but not just jumping,

205

00:12:30,916 --> 00:12:34,003

not just quickly doing that,

seeing that this is guided by God.

206

00:12:34,003 --> 00:12:38,507

I think we have to always be careful

about making moves

207

00:12:38,966 --> 00:12:42,011

that are primarily

about what we don't want

208

00:12:42,887 --> 00:12:47,767

and being sure that we are actually

following God, coming to the church.

209

00:12:47,767 --> 00:12:52,188

I think with the mentality, not primarily

what can the church do for me,

210

00:12:52,188 --> 00:12:56,567

but what can I do for the church

if I can borrow, Kennedy’s

211

00:12:57,943 --> 00:13:00,738

statement about our country.

212

00:13:00,738 --> 00:13:03,824

So with that way of thinking,

213

00:13:03,866 --> 00:13:08,537

the reality in a close relationship

just as in a marriage

214

00:13:08,537 --> 00:13:12,082

and a family, in the church,

there will be offenses.

215

00:13:12,082 --> 00:13:16,045

There will be things that happen

that are hurtful that shouldn't happen.

216

00:13:16,045 --> 00:13:19,048

That's the process of our growing,

our becoming.

217

00:13:19,673 --> 00:13:23,385

But how we respond to those things

is so significant in terms of,

218

00:13:23,469 --> 00:13:27,223

the ongoing effect on us that Jesus

219

00:13:28,224 --> 00:13:31,227

has such grace that he can enable

220

00:13:32,144 --> 00:13:35,898

these wounds actually

to be part of our development

221

00:13:35,898 --> 00:13:38,901

as we look to him.

222

00:13:39,693 --> 00:13:40,069

Yeah.

223

00:13:40,069 --> 00:13:43,072

And I think that is, that's so important

224

00:13:44,198 --> 00:13:47,201

in thinking about this picture,

225

00:13:48,494 --> 00:13:49,912

I guess I probably want to distinguish,

though,

226

00:13:49,912 --> 00:13:53,290

between some of these, you know,

those very hard relational things.

227

00:13:53,290 --> 00:13:56,919

And, you know, if you have

a different kind of scenario where

228

00:13:58,128 --> 00:14:01,215

somebody is being sexually

abused or something and they need to,

229

00:14:02,466 --> 00:14:04,927

I mean, need to find help,

230

00:14:04,927 --> 00:14:07,930

very likely need to gain some distance.

231

00:14:08,681 --> 00:14:12,226

I mean, obviously

232

00:14:12,226 --> 00:14:15,271

the immediate thing

there is help from safe people.

233

00:14:16,188 --> 00:14:18,732

but then I'm thinking even afterwards,

somebody, you know, maybe

234

00:14:18,732 --> 00:14:23,988

looking back on that, maybe they're now

protected from the abuser,

235

00:14:25,030 --> 00:14:27,157

but it seems like

that could so easily like,

236

00:14:29,118 --> 00:14:32,121

you know, cloud your whole view of church.

237

00:14:32,246 --> 00:14:34,623

Or you could feel like just,

238

00:14:34,623 --> 00:14:38,419

wow, I've seen what happens in church,

and I don't want any of it or whatever.

239

00:14:39,336 --> 00:14:42,339

And obviously,

you know, God wants a more redemptive

240

00:14:43,549 --> 00:14:44,717

response than that.

241

00:14:44,717 --> 00:14:48,095

But yeah, how would you maybe try to help

242

00:14:48,095 --> 00:14:52,433

someone see past some of that trauma

in the past or something?

243

00:14:53,934 --> 00:14:56,812

Yes. Well,

I certainly, do think that it's important

244

00:14:56,812 --> 00:15:01,025

we don't, encourage people

to stay in relationships

245

00:15:01,025 --> 00:15:06,322

where, there is, crossing of boundaries

like that in ways that are inappropriate.

246

00:15:06,322 --> 00:15:09,199

There is the need actually

to reinforce boundaries

247

00:15:09,199 --> 00:15:12,202

and even create physical distance

at times.

248

00:15:13,037 --> 00:15:15,956

where there's been that kind of abuse

249

00:15:15,956 --> 00:15:19,460

and people often do need

250

00:15:19,460 --> 00:15:22,546

help with that

to be able to work through those things.

251

00:15:23,172 --> 00:15:26,967

there, you know, God in his grace

does give us grace,

252

00:15:26,967 --> 00:15:29,970

but he gives it oftentimes

through other believers.

253

00:15:30,512 --> 00:15:32,765

But becoming disillusioned.

254

00:15:32,765 --> 00:15:35,684

I would again, just want to say that

255

00:15:36,769 --> 00:15:37,603

we always

256

00:15:37,603 --> 00:15:40,773

have to

be careful that we don't in the pain

257

00:15:40,773 --> 00:15:44,610

of a particular situation,

don't lose sight of the bigger picture,

258

00:15:44,944 --> 00:15:49,531

and that it is an incredible privilege

to be part of God's work.

259

00:15:49,531 --> 00:15:52,409

And that's

where we have to come back to saying,

260

00:15:52,409 --> 00:15:55,996

you know, if I had a terrible,

circumstance, that that doesn't

261

00:15:55,996 --> 00:15:58,999

mean that the whole plan is bad.

262

00:15:59,291 --> 00:16:04,964

just as when we have a very difficult

personal relationship with somebody

263

00:16:04,964 --> 00:16:07,967

doesn't mean, well, I'm never going

to have a relationship with anybody.

264

00:16:08,008 --> 00:16:11,011

We realize that does happen.

265

00:16:11,470 --> 00:16:13,764

but, we are,

266

00:16:13,764 --> 00:16:18,519

we are having the privilege of actually

participating in this great work of God.

267

00:16:18,978 --> 00:16:22,856

And if we can actually get a picture

of the glory

268

00:16:22,856 --> 00:16:25,985

of that work,

we're all, we can be almost desperate.

269

00:16:26,026 --> 00:16:28,988

I just want to be part of this somehow.

270

00:16:28,988 --> 00:16:31,115

To be part of this work of God.

271

00:16:31,115 --> 00:16:34,118

again, not minimizing

272

00:16:34,284 --> 00:16:38,664

pain and, confusion that people can have

273

00:16:38,664 --> 00:16:44,211

in particular relationships

and, don't want to minimize that,

274

00:16:44,211 --> 00:16:49,425

but don't let that particular pain

or difficulty obscure

275

00:16:50,050 --> 00:16:54,388

who God is and what He's doing in Christ

and our desire to be part of that.

276

00:16:56,181 --> 00:16:58,976

Yeah, thanks for that.

277

00:16:58,976 --> 00:16:59,309

yeah.

278

00:16:59,309 --> 00:17:02,938

The other situation

I wanted to think about,

279

00:17:03,772 --> 00:17:07,234

with this theme of,

think we're calling this episode

280

00:17:07,234 --> 00:17:10,404

something like,

you know, do bad churches glorify

281

00:17:10,404 --> 00:17:13,407

God and

282

00:17:13,866 --> 00:17:16,118

maybe the framing is not

283

00:17:16,118 --> 00:17:19,121

quite the right framing, but,

you know, thinking about

284

00:17:19,580 --> 00:17:22,583

how do we approach it

when we have those problems?

285

00:17:22,624 --> 00:17:25,961

But yeah, another piece

I'm thinking about here in terms of,

286

00:17:25,961 --> 00:17:30,299

you know, my question,

how do we think about churches

287

00:17:30,299 --> 00:17:33,677

glorifying God when we see problems

and so on?

288

00:17:33,886 --> 00:17:36,889

is just a thing of,

289

00:17:37,890 --> 00:17:40,893

you know, ethnic reconciliation or

290

00:17:41,018 --> 00:17:44,063

how do we relate across cultural lines

or whatever?

291

00:17:45,481 --> 00:17:47,858

it seems like it's a big part of Ephesians

292

00:17:47,858 --> 00:17:50,903

says God is bringing together

people from everywhere.

293

00:17:50,903 --> 00:17:52,654

Bringing them

together. Now, walk in unity.

294

00:17:53,655 --> 00:17:57,451

you know,

some years ago, I think this was

295

00:17:58,452 --> 00:18:01,455

maybe attributed to various speakers, but

296

00:18:02,122 --> 00:18:05,000

mid 1900s in America,

there was a saying, you know,

297

00:18:05,000 --> 00:18:08,003

Speaker: 11:00

Sunday morning is the most segregated hour

298

00:18:09,338 --> 00:18:11,215

of the week.

299

00:18:11,215 --> 00:18:13,217

And this was, you know, pre-civil

300

00:18:13,217 --> 00:18:16,178

rights movement

when there was official segregation.

301

00:18:16,512 --> 00:18:19,515

And they're saying, well,

the churches are worse.

302

00:18:20,307 --> 00:18:23,310

And of course,

303

00:18:23,477 --> 00:18:27,397

we could get into a lot of debates

and get a lot of opinions

304

00:18:27,397 --> 00:18:31,443

if we tried to assess, you know,

what exactly is the progress since then?

305

00:18:32,069 --> 00:18:33,779

Because

306

00:18:33,779 --> 00:18:35,864

some people would feel like

there's been a lot of progress

307

00:18:35,864 --> 00:18:38,867

and others would say

there's not been much progress, and so on.

308

00:18:41,745 --> 00:18:42,454

But still,

309

00:18:42,454 --> 00:18:45,707

and I think about this in our circles.

310

00:18:45,707 --> 00:18:48,710

So Anabaptist perspectives we’re

representing a certain,

311

00:18:48,752 --> 00:18:52,422

piece of the Anabaptist movement here.

312

00:18:53,966 --> 00:18:57,469

And it seems like

313

00:18:58,387 --> 00:19:01,390

we have a hard time

relating at a church level,

314

00:19:02,141 --> 00:19:04,893

you know, beyond

315

00:19:04,893 --> 00:19:07,396

people who grew up in

316

00:19:07,396 --> 00:19:10,399

conservative

Anabaptist circles or similar circles.

317

00:19:10,899 --> 00:19:14,111

and it makes me wonder sometimes.

318

00:19:14,111 --> 00:19:17,573

And I think other people ask these

questions like, well, you know, are we

319

00:19:18,073 --> 00:19:21,785

missing something about these barriers

or partitions

320

00:19:21,785 --> 00:19:24,788

that Ephesians talks about Jesus

taking down?

321

00:19:26,999 --> 00:19:27,332

yeah.

322

00:19:27,332 --> 00:19:30,335

How do you think about some of

those issues?

323

00:19:31,378 --> 00:19:36,258

Well, it's a big subject, and I don't know

that I have the answer for all of them.

324

00:19:36,258 --> 00:19:39,636

There is this tension between,

325

00:19:40,721 --> 00:19:46,602

Between likeness and diversity.

326

00:19:46,852 --> 00:19:51,023

And I think with the kind of,

327

00:19:51,148 --> 00:19:54,109

disintegration,

328

00:19:54,443 --> 00:19:57,529

or, breakup of the church,

329

00:19:58,363 --> 00:20:02,576

we do find ourselves

moving toward those that are like us.

330

00:20:03,744 --> 00:20:05,120

I think that

331

00:20:05,120 --> 00:20:10,042

even as conservative Anabaptists,

we should think in terms of,

332

00:20:10,417 --> 00:20:13,629

resisting at least some level of that,

333

00:20:15,214 --> 00:20:17,007

like, just being like,

334

00:20:17,007 --> 00:20:20,928

and especially if we make it

335

00:20:20,928 --> 00:20:24,890

a fairly closed circle,

that really bothers me.

336

00:20:24,890 --> 00:20:26,934

I think we should

337

00:20:26,934 --> 00:20:30,103

reach out to others and appreciate,

338

00:20:30,520 --> 00:20:33,190

where God

is working in the lives of others.

339

00:20:33,190 --> 00:20:37,903

I don't know, that we can rectify

340

00:20:37,903 --> 00:20:43,825

everything, there, but it's a joy to me

when in our congregation,

341

00:20:43,825 --> 00:20:47,371

we have people from different backgrounds,

ethnic groups,

342

00:20:48,413 --> 00:20:50,582

whether it's race or,

343

00:20:50,582 --> 00:20:55,921

sometimes, we have a number of people

from other backgrounds

344

00:20:55,921 --> 00:20:59,758

and I find great joy in that,

even where they bring perspectives

345

00:20:59,758 --> 00:21:02,761

that are different from ours. And,

346

00:21:03,345 --> 00:21:06,473

I just find a lot of, joy in seeing

347

00:21:07,391 --> 00:21:12,562

how Jesus can bring people together from,

different backgrounds.

348

00:21:12,562 --> 00:21:16,191

I think the New Testament

example of the Jew

349

00:21:16,191 --> 00:21:20,279

Gentile coming together

in one body is just amazing.

350

00:21:21,238 --> 00:21:23,282

And we can, at least I can

351

00:21:23,282 --> 00:21:27,411

look back and think about, well,

they really should have done that.

352

00:21:27,411 --> 00:21:28,954

And that was really good, you know?

353

00:21:28,954 --> 00:21:35,377

And yet sometimes it seems like more

minor differences today can keep us apart.

354

00:21:36,003 --> 00:21:38,422

And yet the work of Jesus

355

00:21:38,422 --> 00:21:43,302

is to bring diversity together

and I think we should rejoice in that.

356

00:21:43,302 --> 00:21:46,972

And actually, I don't know that we have to

necessarily try to look for somebody

357

00:21:46,972 --> 00:21:53,270

diverse, simply being open with, sharing,

who Jesus is, with others.

358

00:21:53,270 --> 00:21:56,732

And, we have in our congregation,

359

00:21:56,732 --> 00:22:00,610

people from different backgrounds

and I, for me,

360

00:22:02,154 --> 00:22:03,572

it's a great joy.

361

00:22:03,572 --> 00:22:06,450

And I think we should at least be open

to those things.

362

00:22:06,450 --> 00:22:09,953

And particularly,

I think, making our entrance,

363

00:22:10,704 --> 00:22:14,458

such that it's accessible to people,

364

00:22:15,000 --> 00:22:17,586

there are values

365

00:22:17,586 --> 00:22:19,796

that conservative anabaptists have

that are good

366

00:22:19,796 --> 00:22:23,884

values, family values, work values

and those kinds of things.

367

00:22:23,967 --> 00:22:30,015

But recognizing that people from different

backgrounds can have,

368

00:22:30,015 --> 00:22:34,603

some diversity there and we making it such

that there is entrance possible

369

00:22:34,603 --> 00:22:39,232

that actually they can come in

and be part of us, one with us.

370

00:22:40,942 --> 00:22:43,612

Maybe

I could just, illustrate that in one way.

371

00:22:43,612 --> 00:22:46,448

So our strong family values,

372

00:22:46,448 --> 00:22:49,284

when we have people

coming into our congregation, oftentimes

373

00:22:49,284 --> 00:22:53,872

they don't have those, or they might come

as parts of families or,

374

00:22:53,872 --> 00:22:59,002

and I think it's important that we include

them in our family structures

375

00:22:59,002 --> 00:23:02,756

in ways that, that

enable them to experience that closeness.

376

00:23:04,299 --> 00:23:08,845

almost like adopting them

into our families, structures

377

00:23:08,845 --> 00:23:11,807

so that they don't just hear about our,

378

00:23:12,015 --> 00:23:14,476

family gatherings

and wish they could have them,

379

00:23:14,476 --> 00:23:17,479

but that they can actually participate

in those kinds of things.

380

00:23:17,854 --> 00:23:20,857

That would be an illustration of ways

that we can actually

381

00:23:21,108 --> 00:23:24,111

pull them in in good ways.

382

00:23:24,403 --> 00:23:27,406

And that's actually.

383

00:23:27,781 --> 00:23:29,324

It's actually building a community.

384

00:23:29,324 --> 00:23:30,617

When you do that. That's right. Yeah.

385

00:23:32,619 --> 00:23:35,831

A sense of belonging, of identity

and so on.

386

00:23:37,707 --> 00:23:38,500

Yeah, yeah.

387

00:23:38,500 --> 00:23:40,794

So I hear you talk about two pieces there.

388

00:23:40,794 --> 00:23:42,712

The one is

389

00:23:42,712 --> 00:23:45,549

the importance of, you know,

thinking in terms of a local church

390

00:23:45,549 --> 00:23:48,552

and thinking of openness.

391

00:23:48,635 --> 00:23:51,638

and then the other one, which I think

392

00:23:52,681 --> 00:23:55,684

could be local church,

could also maybe have to do with just,

393

00:23:56,143 --> 00:23:57,894

you know, who we associate with and so on.

394

00:23:57,894 --> 00:24:01,314

You talked about resisting

that pull toward,

395

00:24:02,899 --> 00:24:06,945

you know, we associate with like

and it becomes

396

00:24:07,779 --> 00:24:12,617

exclusive

or becomes insular or whatever.

397

00:24:14,703 --> 00:24:15,078

yeah.

398

00:24:15,078 --> 00:24:19,040

Do you have any practical,

any other practical tools

399

00:24:19,040 --> 00:24:22,043

or thoughts on

400

00:24:23,003 --> 00:24:25,172

what that means to resist that?

401

00:24:25,172 --> 00:24:28,675

I know in the last episode you talked

about some of your purposes related to,

402

00:24:29,009 --> 00:24:34,222

you know, not creating disunity

and what you can do, individually.

403

00:24:35,515 --> 00:24:35,724

yeah.

404

00:24:35,724 --> 00:24:38,894

Any practical suggestions

on resisting the.

405

00:24:40,270 --> 00:24:43,273

Yeah, the pull to be insular, maybe.

406

00:24:43,315 --> 00:24:45,901

Yeah I think again

407

00:24:45,901 --> 00:24:53,533

the bottom line is a strong commitment

to Jesus focus on Him

408

00:24:53,533 --> 00:24:58,914

and encouraging it in anyone that

we interact with who loves Jesus.

409

00:24:59,456 --> 00:25:02,542

And in that, recognizing that,

410

00:25:03,585 --> 00:25:06,755

there are times when they may,

411

00:25:06,755 --> 00:25:09,758

we may find.

412

00:25:10,675 --> 00:25:15,138

that their questions and their challenges

actually are healthy for us,

413

00:25:15,388 --> 00:25:20,310

where we actually have,

barriers or hurdles.

414

00:25:20,310 --> 00:25:24,606

Maybe would be the thing to them

actually joining with us.

415

00:25:25,106 --> 00:25:29,110

And there are times when, we may have

416

00:25:30,612 --> 00:25:33,949

just grown up with something and

it just seems like the right thing to do.

417

00:25:33,949 --> 00:25:37,452

And their way of thinking is not that way.

418

00:25:37,452 --> 00:25:39,704

And it can be on just practical.

419

00:25:39,704 --> 00:25:44,042

everyday kinds of living where

if unconsciously,

420

00:25:44,042 --> 00:25:46,127

we're putting pressure on them.

421

00:25:46,127 --> 00:25:49,881

I'm just saying, as an example,

we often do our own gardening

422

00:25:49,881 --> 00:25:53,260

and canning and things like that,

and it's almost like,

423

00:25:54,010 --> 00:25:55,845

it's almost a part of our faith.

424

00:25:55,845 --> 00:25:58,139

And it can, it can seem like.

425

00:25:58,139 --> 00:26:02,644

And people who don't maybe don't

grow up with that, are,

426

00:26:03,853 --> 00:26:04,396

feel like,

427

00:26:04,396 --> 00:26:07,941

oh, if I need to join your congregation,

I need to have a garden.

428

00:26:08,233 --> 00:26:11,111

and, and it can, I remember

429

00:26:11,111 --> 00:26:15,198

one, young lady

that was, coming to our church.

430

00:26:15,240 --> 00:26:18,493

One of the things that she struggled with

was a different view on pets.

431

00:26:18,493 --> 00:26:22,664

It was surprising to me because I knew

that there were people in our church

432

00:26:22,664 --> 00:26:23,290

who had pets.

433

00:26:23,290 --> 00:26:23,957

But for her,

434

00:26:23,957 --> 00:26:27,168

you know, having a dog in her house

and so on is very, very significant.

435

00:26:27,168 --> 00:26:31,047

And, somehow she had picked up that

that wasn't really acceptable.

436

00:26:31,256 --> 00:26:32,007

among us.

437

00:26:32,007 --> 00:26:35,010

And I just think those kinds of things

can be hurdles

438

00:26:35,093 --> 00:26:37,679

that are just unconscious,

439

00:26:37,679 --> 00:26:42,350

values or practices or...

440

00:26:42,350 --> 00:26:46,146

and again,

where we can focus on loving people

441

00:26:46,146 --> 00:26:50,317

as they are,

you know, there are a number of places

442

00:26:51,651 --> 00:26:53,820

where I run into it,

443

00:26:53,820 --> 00:26:57,657

would be on things like,

government assistance, for example.

444

00:26:57,657 --> 00:27:04,122

Our, the place where we live is a lot of

people enjoy government assistance.

445

00:27:04,164 --> 00:27:05,457

They take whatever they can.

446

00:27:05,457 --> 00:27:09,419

And, even if that can help them

447

00:27:09,419 --> 00:27:12,756

to avoid,

or keeping their income low enough

448

00:27:12,756 --> 00:27:15,925

that they can participate

in some of those things.

449

00:27:15,925 --> 00:27:19,012

And for us, we have a strong work ethic.

450

00:27:19,012 --> 00:27:23,516

And, but again,

we have, being able to interact with them

451

00:27:23,516 --> 00:27:29,606

in ways that, help to nurture their love

for Jesus.

452

00:27:29,606 --> 00:27:34,235

And these kinds of things are things

that we'll talk about and interact with.

453

00:27:34,235 --> 00:27:38,114

But what we see them sometimes helping us

454

00:27:38,156 --> 00:27:41,993

is they maybe push against

some of the things that we are thinking.

455

00:27:41,993 --> 00:27:42,952

We need to listen.

456

00:27:42,952 --> 00:27:46,915

We need to care, need to,

sometimes they actually will challenge us

457

00:27:46,915 --> 00:27:48,291

and cause us to say, wait,

458

00:27:48,291 --> 00:27:50,919

you know, maybe we're putting too much

emphasis on something here.

459

00:27:53,171 --> 00:27:53,463

yeah.

460

00:27:53,463 --> 00:27:56,466

That's good. And these things apply.

461

00:27:56,508 --> 00:27:59,511

We're talking cross-culturally here,

462

00:27:59,719 --> 00:28:02,180

but these apply to relationships

463

00:28:02,180 --> 00:28:05,183

in general as well, which is.

464

00:28:05,725 --> 00:28:07,686

Yeah.

465

00:28:07,686 --> 00:28:09,688

Yeah. Thank you for that.

466

00:28:09,688 --> 00:28:10,939

yeah.

467

00:28:10,939 --> 00:28:14,192

Any other thoughts on this theme?

468

00:28:14,275 --> 00:28:18,446

with our question, do

bad churches glorify God?

469

00:28:18,947 --> 00:28:19,698

And if you want to tell me

470

00:28:19,698 --> 00:28:22,701

that's a bad way to ask the question,

you can do that too.

471

00:28:23,618 --> 00:28:24,202

Yeah.

472

00:28:24,202 --> 00:28:26,329

I want to say that again.

473

00:28:26,329 --> 00:28:29,416

We really need to think in terms of

474

00:28:30,542 --> 00:28:33,962

our gathering about more than just us

475

00:28:33,962 --> 00:28:36,965

and, being,

476

00:28:38,133 --> 00:28:41,344

making life comfortable for us

477

00:28:41,344 --> 00:28:44,681

or solving our problems

so that we enjoy church.

478

00:28:45,056 --> 00:28:48,226

Church is not primarily

about our enjoyment.

479

00:28:48,309 --> 00:28:49,894

It is certainly about that.

480

00:28:49,894 --> 00:28:52,897

But it's about the glory of God. And

481

00:28:53,064 --> 00:28:56,317

so when we face problems

thinking of it in terms of

482

00:28:57,110 --> 00:29:01,030

how does this either contribute

to the glory of God, how to solutions,

483

00:29:01,114 --> 00:29:06,035

or and not necessarily

just about how it affects us?

484

00:29:06,786 --> 00:29:09,330

but that's it. That's a constant tension.

485

00:29:09,330 --> 00:29:16,087

because God does want He cares

about our comfort and enjoyment of church.

486

00:29:16,546 --> 00:29:19,299

Right. But it's the bigger picture.

487

00:29:19,299 --> 00:29:23,428

And, the reality

is that sometimes we are detracting

488

00:29:23,428 --> 00:29:26,055

from the glory of God,

by the way that we're interacting.

489

00:29:26,055 --> 00:29:30,852

I mean, you see that Paul's rebuke

to the Corinthians, taking away from

490

00:29:32,061 --> 00:29:33,563

the centrality of Jesus.

491

00:29:33,563 --> 00:29:36,983

And, you know,

he asked some very pointed questions.

492

00:29:36,983 --> 00:29:39,903

Was Jesus or was Paul crucified for you?

493

00:29:39,903 --> 00:29:43,698

you know, those kinds of questions

and enabling them to see that

494

00:29:44,032 --> 00:29:47,035

they were gathering

around the wrong things there?

495

00:29:49,329 --> 00:29:51,247

Yeah, that

496

00:29:51,247 --> 00:29:53,500

seems like maybe

497

00:29:53,500 --> 00:29:55,585

one of the biggest key applications

498

00:29:55,585 --> 00:29:58,588

out of all of this

499

00:29:58,713 --> 00:30:00,590

is remembering God doing something

500

00:30:00,590 --> 00:30:03,593

that is bigger than just

what am I receiving?

501

00:30:04,803 --> 00:30:05,887

So yeah.

502

00:30:05,887 --> 00:30:08,890

one thing I would say maybe additional is,

503

00:30:09,390 --> 00:30:13,603

it's actually a concept

I learned in a book on marriage,

504

00:30:13,603 --> 00:30:17,065

but that marriage is not... marriage.

505

00:30:17,065 --> 00:30:18,858

One of God's intention is that...

506

00:30:18,858 --> 00:30:20,276

It's like a mirror for us.

507

00:30:20,276 --> 00:30:23,988

My, as I interact closely

with a marriage partner,

508

00:30:23,988 --> 00:30:27,909

I actually begin to see myself

and as part of God's design for my growth.

509

00:30:28,284 --> 00:30:32,372

And I think we can apply the same to the

church that, sometimes these difficulties

510

00:30:32,372 --> 00:30:35,625

in relationships are actually God's way

of showing ourselves,

511

00:30:36,292 --> 00:30:38,044

showing us to ourselves.

512

00:30:38,044 --> 00:30:44,008

and through that, we're opening ourselves

to growth and to being refined.

513

00:30:44,008 --> 00:30:49,430

And, again,

being made more like Jesus in the process.

514

00:30:51,432 --> 00:30:54,978

Yeah, yeah, that's a good picture.

515

00:30:54,978 --> 00:30:57,981

And realistic.

516

00:30:58,940 --> 00:30:59,399

Yeah.

517

00:30:59,399 --> 00:31:02,402

Well,

thank you for joining us for this episode.

518

00:31:04,237 --> 00:31:07,365

Thank you for listening to this episode

519

00:31:07,490 --> 00:31:10,910

and I hope it encouraged you

in the situation you're in.

520

00:31:11,744 --> 00:31:17,709

We'll also link here a similar interview

we did with Dean Taylor, called Church

521

00:31:17,709 --> 00:31:21,045

Is Hard, where he talked about various,

522

00:31:21,045 --> 00:31:24,048

difficulties encountered in church life.

523

00:31:24,465 --> 00:31:27,468

You can find that linked below.

524

00:31:27,802 --> 00:31:30,555

You can also find a link to our website,

525

00:31:30,555 --> 00:31:34,726

with links to essays,

a little bit more about the ministry.

526

00:31:35,685 --> 00:31:37,687

And all of our content.

527

00:32:42,418 --> 00:32:43,670

The church in its current

528

00:32:43,670 --> 00:32:46,673

state is not always glorious to us.

529

00:32:46,714 --> 00:32:48,841

We are imperfect.

530

00:32:48,841 --> 00:32:52,595

those are words from John Corgan's

book on Ephesians.

531

00:32:53,346 --> 00:32:58,810

And in this episode, he will share,

how we can respond to that reality.

532

00:32:58,810 --> 00:33:05,191

both are imperfections, as well as sin

and abuse that can go on in the church.

533

00:33:12,907 --> 00:33:14,701

Thank you for listening to this episode.

534

00:33:14,701 --> 00:33:17,787

I hope you were encouraged to trust God

535

00:33:17,787 --> 00:33:20,873

and contribute, to believers around you.

536

00:33:21,541 --> 00:33:25,169

if you enjoyed this episode,