1 00:00:04,800 --> 00:00:07,470 Mia Hobbs: Hello and welcome back to series two of the Why I 2 00:00:07,470 --> 00:00:11,160 Knit podcast. My name is Dr. Mia Hobbs and I'm a clinical 3 00:00:11,160 --> 00:00:14,100 psychologist who's passionate about knitting and its benefits 4 00:00:14,100 --> 00:00:17,790 for our mental wellbeing. Each episode I interview a different 5 00:00:17,790 --> 00:00:20,850 knitter about why they knit and how it benefits their mental 6 00:00:20,850 --> 00:00:25,500 health. This week on the podcast I'm joined by Susan Yaguda. 7 00:00:25,950 --> 00:00:29,730 Susan is an oncology nurse working at The Cancer Institute 8 00:00:29,760 --> 00:00:34,380 in Charlotte, North Carolina. Susan joins me to talk about how 9 00:00:34,380 --> 00:00:37,770 knitting has benefited her own wellbeing and also how she's 10 00:00:37,770 --> 00:00:40,560 used knitting in her place of work with both staff and 11 00:00:40,560 --> 00:00:43,740 patients. Please note that during our discussion, we do 12 00:00:43,740 --> 00:00:45,840 talk about cancer and bereavement. 13 00:00:52,350 --> 00:00:54,690 So hi, Susan. Welcome to the podcast. 14 00:00:54,990 --> 00:00:56,460 Susan Yaguda: Good morning! Thank you. 15 00:00:57,230 --> 00:00:58,910 Mia Hobbs: It's afternoon here but morning where you are. 16 00:00:58,000 --> 00:00:59,890 Susan Yaguda: Oh, it's good morning for me! 17 00:01:00,850 --> 00:01:02,050 Mia Hobbs: What's the time where you are? 18 00:01:02,860 --> 00:01:04,030 Susan Yaguda: It's 8 o'clock. 19 00:01:04,120 --> 00:01:07,330 Mia Hobbs: 8 o'clock, so early! Thank you so much for joining 20 00:01:07,330 --> 00:01:07,630 me. 21 00:01:08,050 --> 00:01:09,760 Susan Yaguda: That's okay, I'm a morning person. 22 00:01:09,820 --> 00:01:13,360 Mia Hobbs: Oh that's good, me too. I always start the podcast 23 00:01:13,360 --> 00:01:15,640 by asking where your story with knitting began. 24 00:01:19,260 --> 00:01:22,950 Susan Yaguda: I grew up in a family of knitters, to be honest 25 00:01:22,950 --> 00:01:28,050 with you. I'm the youngest of six. My mom, my aunts, my 26 00:01:28,050 --> 00:01:34,620 sisters all knit, growing up. For some reason, I did not. I'm 27 00:01:35,550 --> 00:01:40,560 not sure why. I did some cross stitch and that type of thing 28 00:01:40,560 --> 00:01:49,800 and really enjoyed that. And then when my children were in 29 00:01:49,830 --> 00:01:55,710 Montessori school, they were quite young, and another mom, 30 00:01:55,740 --> 00:02:01,140 who was an amazing knitter, said, "Hey, could we do a 31 00:02:01,140 --> 00:02:05,880 mother-daughter knitting group?" And so I was up for that, and 32 00:02:05,880 --> 00:02:10,800 there were several other moms. So we would get together, the 33 00:02:11,010 --> 00:02:15,270 kids would kind of knit for a few minutes, and then they'd go 34 00:02:15,270 --> 00:02:22,020 off and do their own thing. But we really, as parents, enjoyed 35 00:02:23,130 --> 00:02:26,700 the sense of community and of course learning a new skill. 36 00:02:27,180 --> 00:02:33,480 That was about 20 years ago, I think, as my daughter is now 28. 37 00:02:33,510 --> 00:02:37,440 So I think she was around 8 years old when we did that. And 38 00:02:37,710 --> 00:02:43,890 I haven't stopped since. It's just been such a blessing to my 39 00:02:43,890 --> 00:02:51,570 life for so many reasons that I'm really grateful to that mom 40 00:02:51,570 --> 00:02:57,180 for spearheading it and getting me started on it. 41 00:02:58,020 --> 00:03:00,330 Mia Hobbs: So you hadn't knitted at all before that point? 42 00:03:00,630 --> 00:03:02,040 Susan Yaguda: No. 43 00:03:02,040 --> 00:03:02,640 Mia Hobbs: Oh wow! 44 00:03:02,520 --> 00:03:06,995 Susan Yaguda: The funny thing is now, my sisters and my mom... my 45 00:03:02,780 --> 00:04:18,380 Mia Hobbs: Yeah. So it really feels like part of your 46 00:03:07,083 --> 00:03:12,349 mom is quite elderly so she doesn't knit as much now, but my 47 00:03:12,436 --> 00:03:17,965 two sisters and I get together with my mom (particularly before 48 00:03:18,053 --> 00:03:23,494 the pandemic we would) for what we would call a girls weekend. 49 00:03:23,582 --> 00:03:29,110 We all had our knitting projects and have tea and good food and 50 00:03:29,198 --> 00:03:34,025 wine and just really enjoy a nice weekend together, and 51 00:03:34,113 --> 00:03:39,817 that's such precious time when I think about it now, that we just 52 00:03:39,905 --> 00:03:44,732 enjoyed one another's company, but it was always around 53 00:03:44,819 --> 00:03:50,436 knitting too. Sometimes we would go to the local yarn shop where 54 00:03:50,524 --> 00:03:55,877 my mom lives and just enjoy that as well. So now we all share 55 00:03:55,965 --> 00:04:00,967 patterns. We ask each other about different techniques we 56 00:04:01,055 --> 00:04:06,584 might have questions about, and so it's really become something 57 00:04:06,671 --> 00:04:11,849 that I'm very... I'm very close to my sisters but it's been 58 00:04:11,937 --> 00:04:15,360 really a nice thing to bond us as well. 59 00:04:18,380 --> 00:04:19,730 connection with your family now? 60 00:04:20,000 --> 00:04:21,530 Susan Yaguda: Yeah! 61 00:04:22,280 --> 00:04:23,900 Mia Hobbs: And do your kids still knit? 62 00:04:25,910 --> 00:04:30,200 Susan Yaguda: I have a son and a daughter, and thinking back like 63 00:04:30,230 --> 00:04:36,500 20 years ago, I did teach my son how to knit and he's actually 64 00:04:36,500 --> 00:04:40,580 very good. He didn't keep it up, though. And my daughter, she'll 65 00:04:40,580 --> 00:04:44,240 pick it up from time to time. She actually lives in the UK 66 00:04:44,240 --> 00:04:51,140 now. And so, you know, being away from home has been 67 00:04:51,140 --> 00:04:55,490 difficult during these past couple of years. And so I really 68 00:04:55,490 --> 00:05:00,110 have encouraged her because it's been so helpful to me to have 69 00:05:00,110 --> 00:05:04,400 something in my hands. And so she'll pick it up now and then, 70 00:05:04,430 --> 00:05:11,060 and does still enjoy it, so who knows what she might do in 20 71 00:05:11,060 --> 00:05:12,260 years? So we'll see. 72 00:05:12,000 --> 00:05:14,520 Mia Hobbs: I think lots of people that I've interviewed, 73 00:05:14,520 --> 00:05:17,640 and certainly for me, have had long dormant periods where they 74 00:05:17,640 --> 00:05:20,880 didn't knit, and then suddenly it was the right moment in their 75 00:05:20,880 --> 00:05:27,120 life, and they pick it up and kind of go with it again. You 76 00:05:27,120 --> 00:05:29,970 said there are many ways it's been helpful for you. I'd love 77 00:05:29,970 --> 00:05:33,900 to hear more about that: about why you knit and how it's been 78 00:05:33,900 --> 00:05:34,650 helpful for you. 79 00:05:35,680 --> 00:05:38,800 Susan Yaguda: So the practicality of it - I really 80 00:05:39,460 --> 00:05:45,580 enjoy giving homemade gifts, handmade gifts to people. So 81 00:05:45,580 --> 00:05:50,080 that's definitely part of it. I'm a little choosier now, who I 82 00:05:50,080 --> 00:05:53,830 gift with my knitting, because I think I hear other knitters say 83 00:05:53,830 --> 00:06:00,730 too, some people don't quite get it. But definitely, I have an 84 00:06:00,730 --> 00:06:05,710 appreciative pool of family and friends, and enjoy doing that 85 00:06:05,710 --> 00:06:09,850 for them. But really it's a mindfulness practice for me. 86 00:06:10,870 --> 00:06:15,370 It's definitely a way... sometimes for me in the morning, 87 00:06:15,400 --> 00:06:18,040 when I'm having my coffee, I'll just knit even if it's just for 88 00:06:18,040 --> 00:06:24,310 five minutes. It just sets my day straight with a calmer 89 00:06:25,540 --> 00:06:29,170 attitude, I think, about going into the day. And then 90 00:06:29,170 --> 00:06:32,980 definitely towards the end of the day, too, I might have a cup 91 00:06:32,980 --> 00:06:37,030 of tea and just pick up my knitting again. Even if I only 92 00:06:37,030 --> 00:06:41,560 have a few minutes to do it, I still appreciate those moments, 93 00:06:41,560 --> 00:06:46,690 just to de-stress, to kind of let go of anything that was 94 00:06:46,690 --> 00:06:50,350 going on during the day so that I can get a restful night's 95 00:06:50,350 --> 00:06:55,810 sleep. It really is a very big mindfulness practice for me. 96 00:06:59,560 --> 00:07:04,660 Other than my sisters, I don't knit a whole lot with others. 97 00:07:04,990 --> 00:07:09,220 But there is a sense of community, I think, around the 98 00:07:09,220 --> 00:07:15,550 knitting world, whether that's through social media or going to 99 00:07:15,610 --> 00:07:20,890 a local yarn shop. You can always talk to a knitter about 100 00:07:21,550 --> 00:07:24,640 what they're doing, what they're interested in, and it inevitably 101 00:07:24,640 --> 00:07:28,510 leads to other conversations too, that keep that kind of 102 00:07:28,510 --> 00:07:33,310 sense of connectivity amongst us. And I think, particularly 103 00:07:33,310 --> 00:07:39,340 during this pandemic time where we often feel disconnected, it's 104 00:07:39,340 --> 00:07:47,410 really an important tool to to being connected with one 105 00:07:47,410 --> 00:07:57,310 another. In my work it's really been important to connect with 106 00:07:57,310 --> 00:08:01,450 patients even, and to allow them to connect with one another. So 107 00:08:01,480 --> 00:08:06,700 I would say between being able to produce something that is 108 00:08:07,060 --> 00:08:11,890 homemade and I can gift from my heart, to the mindfulness 109 00:08:11,890 --> 00:08:15,280 practice, and then the connectivity piece of it, too, 110 00:08:16,180 --> 00:08:20,500 it's just been a really rich hobby to have in my life. 111 00:08:20,960 --> 00:08:24,110 Mia Hobbs: I'd love to go on to ask you, in a minute, more about 112 00:08:24,110 --> 00:08:27,050 your work and how you've used knitting there. But first of 113 00:08:27,050 --> 00:08:30,590 all, I'm curious for yourself, like have you got specific 114 00:08:30,590 --> 00:08:34,190 things you prefer to knit? Does it matter what the knitting is, 115 00:08:34,400 --> 00:08:35,780 in terms of the techniques? 116 00:08:36,320 --> 00:08:41,810 Susan Yaguda: Yeah. So I usually have two things typically going 117 00:08:41,840 --> 00:08:47,780 at once, and one is kind of a no-brainer - I can sit in a 118 00:08:47,780 --> 00:08:53,840 meeting and it helps me pay attention, but not have to count 119 00:08:53,840 --> 00:08:59,390 or follow a pattern or that type of thing. And then I like to 120 00:08:59,390 --> 00:09:06,740 knit just about anything. I've gotten into socks and go in 121 00:09:06,740 --> 00:09:10,640 spurts with that. Mittens... I had like a run on mittens! And 122 00:09:12,170 --> 00:09:16,760 I'm working on a sweater right now for a friend's birthday. 123 00:09:17,480 --> 00:09:21,680 Shawls... I really, really love to make shawls, especially if 124 00:09:21,680 --> 00:09:27,890 the designer has some really clear instructions. Hats off to 125 00:09:27,890 --> 00:09:31,040 designers! I think that it's just magic what they do, you 126 00:09:31,040 --> 00:09:35,540 know, to be able to create a pattern, put it on paper, so 127 00:09:35,540 --> 00:09:40,670 that I can just blindly follow the directions and then voila! 128 00:09:40,700 --> 00:09:43,640 Here comes some beautiful piece, you know, just because they've 129 00:09:43,640 --> 00:09:48,560 had that skill set to do that. So I do love to make shawls. I 130 00:09:48,560 --> 00:09:55,160 haven't done certain techniques, like brioche I haven't tried. 131 00:09:55,000 --> 00:09:58,510 Mia Hobbs: I haven't either, actually! I wondered whether 132 00:09:58,510 --> 00:10:00,280 maybe this was the year for me. [Laughs] 133 00:10:00,280 --> 00:10:04,990 Susan Yaguda: Yeah, me too! [Laughs] Yeah, so maybe try 134 00:10:04,990 --> 00:10:10,000 that. I've done some lace work, and again I've enjoyed that,you 135 00:10:10,060 --> 00:10:14,650 know, as long as I am able to pay attention to it as well. So 136 00:10:14,650 --> 00:10:16,750 having something that's mindless, and then having 137 00:10:16,750 --> 00:10:19,990 something where I do have to pay attention a little bit. I love 138 00:10:19,990 --> 00:10:24,820 cables - to me they're magic as well, just how slipping one 139 00:10:24,820 --> 00:10:29,590 direction or another just makes this beautiful pattern! And it's 140 00:10:29,590 --> 00:10:32,380 fun to work on those too. 141 00:10:32,000 --> 00:10:36,770 Mia Hobbs: So have you got times when you feel like you need the 142 00:10:36,770 --> 00:10:40,010 more complicated pattern? It sounds like there are times 143 00:10:40,010 --> 00:10:42,290 where you need the simple one, which is if you've got to pay 144 00:10:42,290 --> 00:10:45,470 attention to something else. I'm interested in the times you 145 00:10:45,470 --> 00:10:47,090 might need the more complicated one. 146 00:10:47,900 --> 00:10:50,750 Susan Yaguda: Yeah, when you have to pay attention to 147 00:10:50,750 --> 00:10:54,590 something, follow directions, make sure you're counting 148 00:10:54,770 --> 00:11:01,760 properly, it kind of takes your mind away from other things that 149 00:11:01,760 --> 00:11:08,210 might have been creating stress in your life or things you kind 150 00:11:08,210 --> 00:11:12,920 of need to let go of. It's a nice distraction, if you will. 151 00:11:13,190 --> 00:11:18,410 And then after working on something for a bit, the stuff 152 00:11:18,410 --> 00:11:21,260 that was bothering you previously just doesn't seem to 153 00:11:21,260 --> 00:11:25,310 be a big deal anymore and you can kind of let it go until 154 00:11:25,400 --> 00:11:28,730 maybe the next day. And you'll address it with fresh eyes and 155 00:11:29,270 --> 00:11:34,130 be able to maybe be more productive in how to manage 156 00:11:34,130 --> 00:11:38,480 something that was going on. So there's also definitely times 157 00:11:38,480 --> 00:11:41,120 where I'm like, "I can't concentrate on this right now. 158 00:11:41,120 --> 00:11:45,020 I'm just going to enjoy the soothing aspect of the rhythm of 159 00:11:45,020 --> 00:11:52,130 knitting and just feeling it in my hands, and go forward with 160 00:11:52,130 --> 00:11:52,730 that, too." 161 00:11:52,810 --> 00:11:57,670 Mia Hobbs: Yeah. You're a nurse, working in oncology, and I'm 162 00:11:57,670 --> 00:12:00,070 really interested to hear about how you've brought knitting into 163 00:12:00,070 --> 00:12:03,790 your place of work. I'd love to hear more about that. 164 00:12:04,080 --> 00:12:10,740 Susan Yaguda: Yeah, thank you! So I manage a team of 165 00:12:10,740 --> 00:12:18,060 integrative providers. We have a wide array of services. So we 166 00:12:18,060 --> 00:12:22,380 don't treat cancer itself, but we help support people through 167 00:12:22,380 --> 00:12:26,520 their cancer journey at any aspect along the way. And part 168 00:12:26,520 --> 00:12:31,440 of my team is we have a group of artists. And so one of my 169 00:12:31,470 --> 00:12:35,580 artists had started with us as a volunteer, and then we were able 170 00:12:35,580 --> 00:12:39,780 to contract and bring her on, and she's just amazing. My whole 171 00:12:39,780 --> 00:12:43,320 team is amazing, but she was really just open to anything. 172 00:12:43,320 --> 00:12:49,050 And I said, "Hey, I really want to start a knitting and crochet 173 00:12:49,050 --> 00:12:54,540 circle for our patients and care partners." And she was like, 174 00:12:54,540 --> 00:12:59,430 "Sure, okay, but I need to learn how." [Laughs] So she went off 175 00:12:59,430 --> 00:13:04,650 and took some lessons at a local yarn shop. And, of course, this 176 00:13:04,650 --> 00:13:09,600 was several years ago, so she's a great knitter now, as well. 177 00:13:10,890 --> 00:13:16,260 And so she started this group. Now it's on Zoom because we're 178 00:13:16,260 --> 00:13:19,650 not meeting in person (hopefully, at some point in the 179 00:13:19,650 --> 00:13:21,780 future), but I'm really happy that we were able to still 180 00:13:21,780 --> 00:13:26,100 provide things virtually even, to help people stay connected. 181 00:13:26,730 --> 00:13:34,320 And so the purpose of the group was not to do great knitting, 182 00:13:35,250 --> 00:13:38,970 just like the purpose of the art programme is not to create great 183 00:13:38,970 --> 00:13:44,190 art but it's really to use it as a processing opportunity to have 184 00:13:45,030 --> 00:13:49,530 patients and care partners support one another. There's 185 00:13:49,530 --> 00:13:53,100 something about when people have something that they're working 186 00:13:53,100 --> 00:13:57,240 on in their hands, and for this group, obviously, it was 187 00:13:57,240 --> 00:14:04,110 knitting, the conversation becomes much better flowing, I 188 00:14:04,110 --> 00:14:09,060 think. People feel a little bit more comfortable sharing. They 189 00:14:10,230 --> 00:14:16,710 find that they have shared experiences and can maybe have 190 00:14:16,710 --> 00:14:19,020 their own experience authenticated because they're 191 00:14:19,020 --> 00:14:24,450 hearing it from somebody else. It's just a very healing process 192 00:14:24,450 --> 00:14:29,700 to have that type of support. And so Deborah, our artist that 193 00:14:29,700 --> 00:14:34,350 was facilitating this and continues to, really her role is 194 00:14:34,350 --> 00:14:41,520 just to maintain inclusivity with the group, to make sure 195 00:14:41,520 --> 00:14:44,910 that the environment remains positive, that people feel 196 00:14:44,910 --> 00:14:49,380 comfortable talking and sharing. And it's been just a really 197 00:14:49,380 --> 00:14:57,780 positive experience all around. We also had some fun things come 198 00:14:57,810 --> 00:15:04,200 out of that for community. So in our community, there's several 199 00:15:04,200 --> 00:15:08,160 organisations. We're very philanthropically dependent, and 200 00:15:08,460 --> 00:15:12,600 they help support us. And one is an organisation called 24 201 00:15:12,600 --> 00:15:19,080 Foundation that does a 24-hour bike ride every summer in 202 00:15:19,080 --> 00:15:24,390 Charlotte, where I live. It's a fundraiser, and a lot of those 203 00:15:24,390 --> 00:15:27,990 funds go to support the programmes that I manage. And so 204 00:15:27,990 --> 00:15:33,690 we got a bicycle, an older bicycle, and the people in the 205 00:15:33,690 --> 00:15:38,190 knitting and crochet circle yarn bombed it! It's so cool-looking. 206 00:15:38,340 --> 00:15:43,140 They did an amazing job. They had yarn bombed two chairs the 207 00:15:43,140 --> 00:15:47,940 year previously, and we displayed them at a gala that we 208 00:15:47,940 --> 00:15:51,930 had too, but this bike was something that we could give 209 00:15:51,930 --> 00:15:57,090 back to the organisation that supports us, just as a way to 210 00:15:57,090 --> 00:16:03,330 say thank you for all. So we bring it out when we have events 211 00:16:03,330 --> 00:16:06,780 with them, and they in turn have gifted it back to us, and it's 212 00:16:06,780 --> 00:16:12,180 actually hanging in our cancer rehab gym. But it's always just 213 00:16:12,210 --> 00:16:18,030 a really nice reminder that we are all community supporting one 214 00:16:18,030 --> 00:16:22,050 another through that. So that's been just fun. The chairs that 215 00:16:22,050 --> 00:16:26,190 they did, it was really whimsical, little mice and 216 00:16:26,190 --> 00:16:29,850 spider webs, and they did a beautiful job with that. And 217 00:16:29,850 --> 00:16:32,730 those are on display in our cancer institution now, so 218 00:16:32,730 --> 00:16:37,980 anybody can walk by and just enjoy taking a look at them. And 219 00:16:37,980 --> 00:16:45,780 then from a medical perspective, I mean this is purely anecdotal, 220 00:16:45,780 --> 00:16:51,480 but we had several patients who got chemotherapies that cause 221 00:16:51,510 --> 00:16:56,040 neurotoxicity, and they can get neuropathy in their hands and 222 00:16:56,040 --> 00:16:59,040 their feet, like a tingling and numbness. It really can be 223 00:17:00,210 --> 00:17:04,470 distressing and impactful on things, even like buttoning a 224 00:17:04,470 --> 00:17:10,020 shirt or walking safely, that type of thing. And one woman who 225 00:17:10,020 --> 00:17:16,290 was really involved in this group also said that the 226 00:17:16,290 --> 00:17:19,980 knitting helped her neuropathy, and she said, "If I could figure 227 00:17:19,980 --> 00:17:25,170 out a way to knit with my toes, I could address it in my feet as 228 00:17:25,170 --> 00:17:29,100 well!" But she swore that it was just keeping herself moving like 229 00:17:29,100 --> 00:17:34,830 that, and maybe the tactile part of knitting, that helped her. So 230 00:17:34,830 --> 00:17:37,770 that would be something that I would love to study at some 231 00:17:37,770 --> 00:17:41,040 point. Can we really be impactful on that with something 232 00:17:41,040 --> 00:17:47,880 so simple and low cost and extremely low risk, and make an 233 00:17:47,880 --> 00:17:51,150 impact on something that really can be distressing to somebody 234 00:17:51,150 --> 00:17:52,530 who's gone through cancer treatment. 235 00:17:54,060 --> 00:17:56,340 Mia Hobbs: What's the kind of feedback you've had from people 236 00:17:56,340 --> 00:18:00,210 who've engaged in the knitting, so some of the people receiving 237 00:18:00,210 --> 00:18:01,200 treatment for cancer? 238 00:18:03,660 --> 00:18:07,410 Susan Yaguda: It's really heartwarming to go into the 239 00:18:07,410 --> 00:18:14,160 infusion suite and see people there knitting as a way to pass 240 00:18:14,160 --> 00:18:17,010 the time. Oftentimes, they're there for several hours. 241 00:18:17,000 --> 00:18:19,010 Mia Hobbs: Is that when they're receiving their chemotherapy? 242 00:18:20,410 --> 00:18:25,720 Susan Yaguda: Yeah. And they really appreciate the community. 243 00:18:26,860 --> 00:18:33,340 They come together when... you know, inevitably we have to say 244 00:18:33,340 --> 00:18:37,090 goodbye to certain people at different times, and they really 245 00:18:37,090 --> 00:18:40,840 come together as a community to support one another through that 246 00:18:40,840 --> 00:18:46,390 grieving process. I think it also shines the light on... 247 00:18:46,420 --> 00:18:48,880 well, for all of us but especially if you also are 248 00:18:48,880 --> 00:18:54,010 dealing with cancer... your own mortality, and really coming to 249 00:18:54,010 --> 00:18:57,640 terms with that, because you've lost somebody that you've been 250 00:18:57,640 --> 00:19:05,200 close to. So I really appreciate that they form kind of a support 251 00:19:05,200 --> 00:19:10,450 group amongst themselves. So that has been definitely one of 252 00:19:10,450 --> 00:19:14,500 the outcomes that I was hoping for. The other thing is they 253 00:19:14,500 --> 00:19:17,290 really have appreciated, particularly during the 254 00:19:17,290 --> 00:19:24,100 pandemic, having knitting as a hobby to continue with during 255 00:19:24,130 --> 00:19:29,650 their time when they've had to be more isolated, as well. The 256 00:19:29,680 --> 00:19:33,520 other thing that is so cool about this group is they also... 257 00:19:33,550 --> 00:19:36,400 (this wasn't intentional, they just kind of came up with this 258 00:19:36,400 --> 00:19:43,480 organically)... they'll knit caps for patients who have lost 259 00:19:43,480 --> 00:19:47,170 their hair because of chemotherapy, scarves, 260 00:19:48,070 --> 00:19:51,730 fingerless mitts, that type of thing, and then they go to our 261 00:19:51,730 --> 00:19:57,460 resource centre and then anybody who's in need can take something 262 00:19:57,460 --> 00:20:02,380 like that. To know that it came from somebody else who has 263 00:20:02,560 --> 00:20:06,820 walked your path as well, I think is really meaningful. 264 00:20:08,740 --> 00:20:10,660 Mia Hobbs: There's a project here actually, that I've seen on 265 00:20:10,660 --> 00:20:12,880 the news, called Knitted Knockers. I don't know if you've 266 00:20:12,880 --> 00:20:14,530 heard of that? 267 00:20:12,990 --> 00:20:16,948 Susan Yaguda: Oh yeah! We did that. People continue to make 268 00:20:17,036 --> 00:20:22,753 knockers. It's really taken off, hasn't it? It's so fun. And, you 269 00:20:22,841 --> 00:20:27,415 know, women who require a prosthesis really like the 270 00:20:27,503 --> 00:20:33,132 knitted knockers. They're soft, they're light, they're washable, 271 00:20:33,220 --> 00:20:37,970 you can form them to fit yourselves perfectly, they're 272 00:20:38,058 --> 00:20:43,423 free... you know, prostheses can be very expensive. With some 273 00:20:43,511 --> 00:20:47,997 local yarn shops in our community, we did a knitted 274 00:20:48,085 --> 00:20:53,099 knocker campaign, and then the fire department has a pink 275 00:20:53,187 --> 00:20:58,640 firetruck and so they stopped at the yarn shops, and we filled 276 00:20:58,728 --> 00:21:03,830 the firetruck up with knitted knockers! There were bags of 277 00:21:03,918 --> 00:21:08,931 them! [Laughs] And then they delivered them to the Cancer 278 00:21:09,019 --> 00:21:14,209 Institute, then we had to sort them and get them where they 279 00:21:14,297 --> 00:21:19,486 needed to be in that way. But that was such, again, another 280 00:21:19,574 --> 00:21:21,510 fun community project. 281 00:21:21,930 --> 00:21:24,930 Mia Hobbs: It sounds like some of the people in the group have 282 00:21:24,930 --> 00:21:28,800 been very inventive about finding ways to have a more kind 283 00:21:28,800 --> 00:21:32,250 of group knitting experience. Because I guess a lot of us, 284 00:21:32,250 --> 00:21:35,520 even if we're knitting in a group, often the project is just 285 00:21:35,520 --> 00:21:38,700 ours, I suppose, or we might be knitting something that's just 286 00:21:38,700 --> 00:21:41,730 ours. It's not that often you knit something that is part of a 287 00:21:41,730 --> 00:21:44,400 kind of cooperative project. 288 00:21:43,890 --> 00:21:47,672 Susan Yaguda: Yeah, we really saw it particularly when they 289 00:21:46,070 --> 00:22:26,630 Mia Hobbs: Yeah. And have you had the opportunity to go and 290 00:21:47,756 --> 00:21:53,136 were able to meet in person and work on the yarn bombing pieces, 291 00:21:53,221 --> 00:21:58,264 because they had to kind of plan it out together. And again, 292 00:21:58,348 --> 00:22:03,308 nobody was telling anybody, "Here, you have to do this." It 293 00:22:03,392 --> 00:22:08,604 just all came very organically. But it was fun to kind of be a 294 00:22:08,688 --> 00:22:13,900 fly on the wall and just peek in and watch them and hear their 295 00:22:13,984 --> 00:22:19,112 conversations. It just really fills my heart because that was 296 00:22:19,196 --> 00:22:23,820 exactly what I wanted when I said, "Can we start this?" 297 00:22:26,630 --> 00:22:29,780 join in with knitting with them at all? Or is that difficult? 298 00:22:29,760 --> 00:22:33,443 Susan Yaguda: I haven't since they have gone to Zoom, and it's 299 00:22:33,519 --> 00:22:38,047 also during my work day. So sometimes I don't have the time 300 00:22:38,123 --> 00:22:42,497 to do that during the work day. But when they did meet in 301 00:22:42,574 --> 00:22:47,025 person, I would often just stop by, because they're lovely 302 00:22:47,101 --> 00:22:51,552 people anyway so I would always love to catch up with them 303 00:22:51,629 --> 00:22:55,772 regardless, but just to again, like I said, hear their 304 00:22:55,849 --> 00:23:00,376 conversation and see what they were working on. To see them 305 00:23:00,453 --> 00:23:04,980 helping each other, because there were some that were very, 306 00:23:05,057 --> 00:23:09,507 very skilled knitters helping others that are maybe new at 307 00:23:09,584 --> 00:23:14,188 something, new to knitting or new at a technique, and really 308 00:23:14,265 --> 00:23:19,560 to have that fellowship within the group is really precious to watch. 309 00:23:19,570 --> 00:23:23,560 Mia Hobbs: Yeah. And that's brilliant for both parties, 310 00:23:23,560 --> 00:23:26,200 isn't it? It's brilliant to be somebody who can share a skill. 311 00:23:26,200 --> 00:23:29,110 That gives you a sense of self esteem, I guess, doesn't it? And 312 00:23:29,110 --> 00:23:32,050 also to be able to be somewhere where you think, "Oh, these 313 00:23:32,050 --> 00:23:35,500 experienced people can help me with this thing I'd like to get 314 00:23:35,500 --> 00:23:35,980 better at." 315 00:23:36,430 --> 00:23:39,610 Susan Yaguda: Yeah, definitely. It definitely goes both 316 00:23:39,610 --> 00:23:40,510 directions. 317 00:23:40,510 --> 00:23:42,190 Mia Hobbs: Yeah. And you mentioned that you've been 318 00:23:42,190 --> 00:23:46,660 involved in a research project to do with knitting. I'd love to 319 00:23:46,660 --> 00:23:47,740 hear a bit more about that. 320 00:23:47,000 --> 00:23:52,490 Susan Yaguda: Yeah, sure. So one thing that patients receiving 321 00:23:52,490 --> 00:23:56,840 chemotherapy sometimes experience is something called 322 00:23:56,840 --> 00:24:03,380 chemo brain. And if you're not familiar with that, it is just 323 00:24:03,440 --> 00:24:09,650 difficulty after finishing chemo or even during, with tasks that 324 00:24:09,650 --> 00:24:13,100 normally would have come easily to you. So it could be things 325 00:24:13,100 --> 00:24:19,460 like sequencing or memory issues or word finding even sometimes, 326 00:24:19,910 --> 00:24:26,060 and it's very distressing to patients to experience this. And 327 00:24:26,060 --> 00:24:29,420 it's especially distressing when they finally finish treatment 328 00:24:30,200 --> 00:24:32,960 and then they're like, "Okay, I'm going back to work." You 329 00:24:32,960 --> 00:24:35,750 know, it's like some sense of hopefully some normalcy in their 330 00:24:35,750 --> 00:24:39,290 lives again, but then they're having really some difficulties 331 00:24:39,590 --> 00:24:47,690 functioning to their pre-cancer diagnosis levels. And so one of 332 00:24:47,690 --> 00:24:51,740 my colleagues is a neuropsychologist and she 333 00:24:51,800 --> 00:24:55,160 started knitting because we... This is another story, but we 334 00:24:55,160 --> 00:25:00,320 started with my teammates. We had a couple of knit nights and 335 00:25:00,380 --> 00:25:03,500 taught them how to knit, and several of my teammates 336 00:25:03,650 --> 00:25:08,090 continued to knit as well, which has been really fun. And Jen, 337 00:25:08,090 --> 00:25:11,630 the neuropsychologist, is one of those that has continued to 338 00:25:11,630 --> 00:25:15,920 that. And so finally, I was like, "I know how knitting makes 339 00:25:15,920 --> 00:25:20,090 me feel, as far as calming my mind and all of that." And we 340 00:25:20,090 --> 00:25:26,390 got talking about the bilateral aspects of knitting, and we also 341 00:25:26,420 --> 00:25:32,960 were thinking about chemo brain. It's not fully understood, why 342 00:25:32,990 --> 00:25:36,470 it occurs. It could be related to inflammation or who knows. 343 00:25:36,920 --> 00:25:40,010 But we were looking through the literature and did not see 344 00:25:40,040 --> 00:25:44,780 anything that looked at increasing neuroplasticity 345 00:25:44,810 --> 00:25:50,150 around cancer-related cognitive impairments. And so we wanted to 346 00:25:50,150 --> 00:25:55,430 see: could teaching somebody to knit make an impact on their 347 00:25:55,430 --> 00:26:02,030 cognitive impairment? So we did a pilot study, and we had the 348 00:26:02,030 --> 00:26:05,900 support from Universal Yarn, which is a big yarn company, 349 00:26:05,900 --> 00:26:09,470 particularly here in the US - I think it is in Europe, too. They 350 00:26:09,470 --> 00:26:12,950 have a headquarters very close to Charlotte, and they provided 351 00:26:12,950 --> 00:26:15,890 us with yarn and with needles and really put together these 352 00:26:15,890 --> 00:26:21,440 nice kits for the study. And we enrolled patients who had 353 00:26:21,440 --> 00:26:26,150 finished the chemotherapy and were self-describing some 354 00:26:26,150 --> 00:26:31,580 cognitive impairment. And they could not have been knitters 355 00:26:31,580 --> 00:26:36,230 before, so it had to be completely a new skill. And then 356 00:26:36,440 --> 00:26:42,020 they came in and we gave them a battery of neuropsych tests, 357 00:26:42,020 --> 00:26:45,740 which are all validated for the age group within the inclusion 358 00:26:45,740 --> 00:26:50,570 criteria. And then we had a volunteer working with us, and 359 00:26:50,570 --> 00:26:53,630 she taught them to knit. And so she would have groups of maybe 360 00:26:53,660 --> 00:26:57,650 1-3 women. They were all women. It wasn't designed to be all 361 00:26:57,650 --> 00:27:01,430 women, but that's the way it fell, which I think is another 362 00:27:01,430 --> 00:27:03,860 thing I'd like to change at some point along the road. 363 00:27:04,250 --> 00:27:05,600 Mia Hobbs: So that was who opted in? 364 00:27:05,580 --> 00:27:09,923 Susan Yaguda: Yeah. They learned to knit. They got a project - it 365 00:27:10,008 --> 00:27:15,033 was a scarf. And then they had another lesson, we gave them 366 00:27:15,119 --> 00:27:20,229 videos, we checked in with them every week, and then 8 weeks 367 00:27:20,314 --> 00:27:25,595 later they came back in. They had to have at least 8 inches of 368 00:27:25,680 --> 00:27:31,216 their scarf done so we knew that they were doing it. So we had to 369 00:27:31,301 --> 00:27:36,667 measure it, and then they were re-tested. And what we found was 370 00:27:36,752 --> 00:27:41,266 really fascinating, in my opinion. All of them tested 371 00:27:41,351 --> 00:27:46,717 within the normal range at the start; however, it may have been 372 00:27:46,802 --> 00:27:51,827 low for them. They were all college educated, they were all 373 00:27:51,912 --> 00:27:56,937 professionals, that's the group that we got for this pilot. 374 00:27:57,023 --> 00:28:01,707 However, the distress levels were quite high across the 375 00:28:01,792 --> 00:28:06,817 group. Post-intervention, they all improved cognitively, in 376 00:28:06,902 --> 00:28:11,757 certain domains at least. I think almost 70% of the group 377 00:28:11,842 --> 00:28:16,867 improved cognitively in at least one of the domains that we 378 00:28:16,953 --> 00:28:22,233 tested. Across the board, they all significantly reported less 379 00:28:22,318 --> 00:28:27,003 distress. That was just really validating, that there's 380 00:28:27,088 --> 00:28:32,283 something going on, whether it is neuroplasticity, or whether 381 00:28:32,368 --> 00:28:37,564 it's decreasing stress so you're able to manage some of those 382 00:28:37,649 --> 00:28:43,015 challenges better. I mean, who knows? We're really eager to dig 383 00:28:43,100 --> 00:28:48,125 a little bit deeper into the whole 'what's happening behind 384 00:28:48,210 --> 00:28:53,491 the veil' kind of thing. We had to close accrual early because 385 00:28:53,570 --> 00:28:59,937 Mia Hobbs: Because like you said, from a research 386 00:28:53,576 --> 00:28:58,601 of the pandemic. We ended up with 16 people, I think, going 387 00:28:58,686 --> 00:29:03,796 through and we'd wanted to get 18, I think. So just a little 388 00:29:00,105 --> 00:29:10,159 perspective, it would be great. It's such a shame you had to 389 00:29:03,882 --> 00:29:08,566 bit short of our original goal, but enough to have some 390 00:29:08,651 --> 00:29:13,761 significant data. And to this day, I hear from people in the 391 00:29:10,327 --> 00:29:20,716 finish early because of COVID. And it'd be great to do a trial 392 00:29:13,847 --> 00:29:18,531 study and they're still knitting! That's another win of 393 00:29:18,616 --> 00:29:23,897 the whole thing. So I look at this as such a low-hanging fruit 394 00:29:20,884 --> 00:29:31,776 with a control group and lots of measures. But even without that, 395 00:29:23,982 --> 00:29:28,581 for an intervention for a condition that is incredibly 396 00:29:28,666 --> 00:29:33,862 distressing for our patients, and how simple it could be, how 397 00:29:31,943 --> 00:29:41,327 it sounds like it has offered a great benefit, even just 398 00:29:33,947 --> 00:29:38,972 inexpensive it could be, how low risk it could be to really 399 00:29:39,057 --> 00:29:42,720 provide this for people who are interested. 400 00:29:41,495 --> 00:29:50,711 anecdotally, or in terms of stress reduction, or giving 401 00:29:50,879 --> 00:30:00,766 people a coping mechanism to take with them for the rest of 402 00:30:00,933 --> 00:30:10,652 their lives. That sounds like it actually has been a super 403 00:30:10,820 --> 00:30:15,680 helpful intervention already. 404 00:30:15,000 --> 00:30:17,850 Susan Yaguda: Yeah. And the neuropsych tasks were all 405 00:30:17,850 --> 00:30:22,560 validated tasks, so we really felt confident about those. They 406 00:30:22,560 --> 00:30:27,480 weren't tasks that you could do well with repetition, you know, 407 00:30:27,510 --> 00:30:33,180 we made sure we didn't have that practice benefit with the tests 408 00:30:33,180 --> 00:30:38,610 that she chose. So we do know that there was benefit. But 409 00:30:38,610 --> 00:30:41,100 yeah, to have a control group would have been nice, since they 410 00:30:41,100 --> 00:30:47,550 were each their own control, but there's so many areas that we 411 00:30:47,550 --> 00:30:52,890 could dig in and explore further that it makes it exciting, for 412 00:30:52,890 --> 00:30:53,430 sure. 413 00:30:54,140 --> 00:30:56,300 Mia Hobbs: And I think you mentioned, while we were 414 00:30:56,450 --> 00:31:00,650 messaging about setting up this conversation, that you'd quite 415 00:31:00,650 --> 00:31:03,590 like to have a group for professionals as well, so for 416 00:31:03,950 --> 00:31:08,420 healthcare staff. I haven't done it formally for that purpose, 417 00:31:08,420 --> 00:31:12,500 but in the past I've informally ended up having groups of 418 00:31:12,500 --> 00:31:18,770 colleagues in health settings to mainly create gifts for somebody 419 00:31:18,770 --> 00:31:22,460 who's having a baby, but have really noticed the positive 420 00:31:22,460 --> 00:31:25,820 effect it's had on team morale, and that we've had different 421 00:31:25,820 --> 00:31:29,720 conversations, that people have been kind of taking a lunch 422 00:31:29,720 --> 00:31:33,170 break for half an hour, once a week, to sit and knit together, 423 00:31:33,170 --> 00:31:36,470 and that it really did feel beneficial, I suppose, on a team 424 00:31:36,470 --> 00:31:39,740 level. I'm interested in what your hopes were for that. 425 00:31:39,750 --> 00:31:45,420 Susan Yaguda: Yeah, definitely. So we did do for just my 426 00:31:45,420 --> 00:31:48,750 department. At the time, we were in a different location while 427 00:31:48,930 --> 00:31:52,260 our current building was being built, and it was tight 428 00:31:52,260 --> 00:31:58,680 quarters, you know, which has its own challenges. But we had a 429 00:31:58,680 --> 00:32:04,110 couple of knit nights, and it was just a time again, for 430 00:32:04,110 --> 00:32:08,820 whomever wanted to, to come together, learn to knit. And 431 00:32:08,820 --> 00:32:13,320 then, similar to what you're talking about, we did find 432 00:32:13,530 --> 00:32:19,530 people sitting at lunchtime knitting. And then we also found 433 00:32:19,530 --> 00:32:23,070 we were able to help each other out with questions about a 434 00:32:23,070 --> 00:32:26,370 skill, or, "Oh, I dropped a stitch. What happened here?", 435 00:32:26,580 --> 00:32:32,490 that type of thing. And it did allow us as a group of 436 00:32:32,490 --> 00:32:37,650 colleagues to interact on a bit of a different level. And then 437 00:32:38,280 --> 00:32:43,800 several of my colleagues really use knitting now as a self care 438 00:32:43,800 --> 00:32:52,050 practice. It's a relaxing thing that they go to daily, almost, 439 00:32:52,710 --> 00:32:55,770 in order to just take better care of themselves. So that's 440 00:32:55,830 --> 00:33:00,480 been really positive. I think, you know, it's no surprise to 441 00:33:00,480 --> 00:33:06,870 anybody how strained the health care profession is right now, 442 00:33:06,900 --> 00:33:12,990 globally. And interestingly, before the pandemic, I had been 443 00:33:12,990 --> 00:33:17,370 working with some other people on my team on moral injury and 444 00:33:17,370 --> 00:33:24,630 resilience, and what can we do to help support one another, to 445 00:33:25,080 --> 00:33:31,350 build up resilience and address moral injury in a positive way. 446 00:33:31,710 --> 00:33:37,320 And then to think that we were doing that work before COVID, 447 00:33:37,800 --> 00:33:43,740 and now what people are having to deal with still two years 448 00:33:43,740 --> 00:33:54,000 later, it's unfathomable. And I really feel like we need to now 449 00:33:54,000 --> 00:34:00,330 kind of shift gears and look at trauma care. How are we helping 450 00:34:01,050 --> 00:34:05,700 our colleagues through trauma, because that's what this has 451 00:34:05,700 --> 00:34:12,300 been, for so many people. And I don't want to simplify things to 452 00:34:12,300 --> 00:34:15,150 the point of saying, "Oh, just give everybody knitting needles 453 00:34:15,150 --> 00:34:20,430 and some yarn, and it's all fine." But I do think that 454 00:34:20,730 --> 00:34:27,570 knitting serves a role in the toolbox as a self care practice, 455 00:34:27,630 --> 00:34:34,110 as a way of soothing. We know that the rhythm of the movement, 456 00:34:34,140 --> 00:34:42,060 of using both hands, has neurological impact. And so I do 457 00:34:42,060 --> 00:34:47,970 think that it could be a useful tool for colleagues to be able 458 00:34:47,970 --> 00:34:53,400 to use for self care. There was a study that some nurses in 459 00:34:53,400 --> 00:34:57,660 Washington did, that I think Project Knitwell helped support. 460 00:34:58,050 --> 00:35:01,740 And again, this was several years ago, with oncology nurses. 461 00:35:02,850 --> 00:35:07,860 They taught them to knit, and the outcomes and the feedback 462 00:35:07,860 --> 00:35:11,130 from those who participated was really positive, how it was 463 00:35:11,130 --> 00:35:15,840 really soothing. And when I was re-reading the manuscript, 464 00:35:17,190 --> 00:35:21,390 "soothing" kind of kept coming up, and I kind of feel like 465 00:35:21,420 --> 00:35:25,860 yeah, it is soothing. And that's maybe part of the benefit of us 466 00:35:25,860 --> 00:35:30,270 bringing it to somebody. We're not going to fix the issues in 467 00:35:30,270 --> 00:35:35,580 our healthcare system by knitting, but if we can help 468 00:35:35,580 --> 00:35:39,090 somebody feel better for a little bit of time and then be 469 00:35:39,090 --> 00:35:43,230 able to be a bit more refreshed to go handle what they need to 470 00:35:43,230 --> 00:35:49,980 handle, then maybe that's our role at this point. So I'm 471 00:35:49,980 --> 00:35:56,070 looking at creating honestly like a toolkit for my 472 00:35:56,070 --> 00:36:03,270 colleagues, our teammates across our system, that has a variety 473 00:36:03,300 --> 00:36:10,020 of ways to take care of yourself and to address the trauma of 474 00:36:10,020 --> 00:36:15,000 what you have experienced during all this time. So I think it 475 00:36:15,000 --> 00:36:16,500 will definitely have a role there. 476 00:36:17,440 --> 00:36:19,180 Mia Hobbs: Yeah, I think that's really true. I've had quite a 477 00:36:19,180 --> 00:36:21,700 few health professionals get in touch with me since starting the 478 00:36:21,700 --> 00:36:26,200 podcast, talking about the idea of having a group with their 479 00:36:26,200 --> 00:36:30,100 colleagues. And I think the tricky thing is, like you said, 480 00:36:30,100 --> 00:36:32,080 it doesn't have to be just knitting, and knitting isn't 481 00:36:32,080 --> 00:36:36,460 going to be for everybody, but the idea of maybe the system or 482 00:36:37,360 --> 00:36:42,760 prioritising self care for the health care staff, because you 483 00:36:42,760 --> 00:36:46,720 can't pour from an empty cup. And in the pandemic, it started 484 00:36:46,720 --> 00:36:50,470 off as a sprint and it's now a marathon. But people are just 485 00:36:50,470 --> 00:36:54,910 getting slowly more exhausted, I guess, and like you said, 486 00:36:54,910 --> 00:36:59,020 traumatised. But it is interesting, the idea of one of 487 00:36:59,020 --> 00:37:03,070 the trauma therapies, EMDR, is focused on using bilateral 488 00:37:04,120 --> 00:37:08,290 movements a bit similar to knitting. And when I spoke to 489 00:37:08,320 --> 00:37:13,780 Betsan Corkhill, I interviewed her for series one about that, 490 00:37:13,780 --> 00:37:16,450 and she said there have been ideas about doing some studies 491 00:37:16,990 --> 00:37:21,640 using knitting as the bilateral movement in the EMDR, so trauma 492 00:37:21,670 --> 00:37:24,520 processing. So it'd be really interesting. I think the tricky 493 00:37:24,520 --> 00:37:26,800 thing is funding for all of these studies. 494 00:37:27,280 --> 00:37:28,420 Susan Yaguda: Most definitely. 495 00:37:28,000 --> 00:37:31,240 Mia Hobbs: And also for the self care for the health 496 00:37:31,240 --> 00:37:34,960 professionals! That's also the problem, isn't it? Getting that 497 00:37:34,960 --> 00:37:36,460 as a priority and funding it. 498 00:37:37,080 --> 00:37:40,170 Susan Yaguda: Yeah, most definitely. However, if you look 499 00:37:40,170 --> 00:37:44,640 at the cost of replacing a critical care nurse, for 500 00:37:44,640 --> 00:37:49,260 example, it's quite costly, especially somebody who has a 501 00:37:49,260 --> 00:37:58,230 lot of experience. And then who are we replacing them with? So I 502 00:37:58,230 --> 00:38:01,560 think that's one thing. And, you know, I'm talking about health 503 00:38:01,560 --> 00:38:04,050 care professionals but it's really across the board. My 504 00:38:04,050 --> 00:38:08,820 heart breaks for our teachers, for parents with young children, 505 00:38:08,820 --> 00:38:15,420 and how they're managing all of this and trying to work and keep 506 00:38:15,420 --> 00:38:21,270 their children happy and healthy. It's across the board - 507 00:38:21,300 --> 00:38:26,250 service providers of any sort. Our resources are not an 508 00:38:26,250 --> 00:38:32,700 unending bucket. There is a bottom to that. So if we don't 509 00:38:32,700 --> 00:38:37,020 start to really take care of what we've got, it's going to be 510 00:38:37,200 --> 00:38:38,820 quite impactful. 511 00:38:39,140 --> 00:38:41,720 Mia Hobbs: Interesting, because I was going into a primary 512 00:38:41,720 --> 00:38:44,900 school to offer a therapeutic knitting group, and a number of 513 00:38:44,900 --> 00:38:49,220 the staff said, "When are you doing one for staff?" And I also 514 00:38:49,220 --> 00:38:53,450 love the idea of the parent and child knitting group that you 515 00:38:53,450 --> 00:38:57,080 started off talking about. I think that's a lovely idea, to 516 00:38:57,080 --> 00:39:03,410 be able to have an activity to share between parents and 517 00:39:03,410 --> 00:39:07,580 children. I'd love to ask you about a significant knitting 518 00:39:07,580 --> 00:39:11,690 project, Susan. Can you think of one, for yourself? 519 00:39:09,510 --> 00:39:13,483 Susan Yaguda: Yeah, certainly. It's so interesting to hear 520 00:39:13,574 --> 00:39:18,812 other people's stories about knitting through grief. And I 521 00:39:18,902 --> 00:39:24,050 think that, for me, I have a pair of socks... it was just 522 00:39:23,720 --> 00:40:40,550 Mia Hobbs: I guess you want to take really good care of them! 523 00:39:24,140 --> 00:39:29,740 when I was just getting to knit socks, so I still was not very 524 00:39:29,830 --> 00:39:34,888 confident about what I was doing. I had to pay attention 525 00:39:34,978 --> 00:39:40,397 quite some bit. But my dad had gotten ill and finally we got 526 00:39:40,487 --> 00:39:46,267 him into hospice care, which was such a blessing, and I'll never 527 00:39:46,357 --> 00:39:51,776 forget sitting with my mom. It was New Year's Eve that year, 528 00:39:51,867 --> 00:39:57,195 and it was just quiet in his room, and I really just wanted 529 00:39:57,285 --> 00:40:02,433 to be there for her, as well. And so I had my socks I was 530 00:40:02,523 --> 00:40:08,123 working on during that time. And I also wanted to give her the 531 00:40:08,213 --> 00:40:13,271 space to to be with this man that she'd been with for 70 532 00:40:13,361 --> 00:40:18,870 years, during his final days. So I could work on my socks and 533 00:40:18,961 --> 00:40:24,560 kind of be there for my mom, but also be in the background for 534 00:40:24,650 --> 00:40:30,521 her to have some quiet time with him. He ended up dying, like two 535 00:40:30,611 --> 00:40:36,391 days later, very peacefully. And those socks are just so special 536 00:40:36,481 --> 00:40:42,261 to me because it just reminds me of how blessed I am to have had 537 00:40:42,352 --> 00:40:47,680 him for all these years as a father, but also how blessed I 538 00:40:42,590 --> 00:41:04,790 Susan Yaguda: I do, yeah! 539 00:40:47,771 --> 00:40:53,370 am to have been in that space with him and my mom. I'm just so 540 00:40:53,460 --> 00:40:58,789 fortunate to be able to be there, and be there with both of 541 00:40:58,879 --> 00:41:04,569 them. And for myself, as well. So those are my special socks. I 542 00:41:04,659 --> 00:41:10,530 don't wear them a whole lot, but I pull them out once in a while. 543 00:41:07,150 --> 00:41:17,890 Mia Hobbs: It's interesting, Susan, that you mentioned that 544 00:41:17,890 --> 00:41:20,080 actually, because I think, like you said, grief has come up 545 00:41:20,110 --> 00:41:22,540 quite a lot when I ask people about a significant knitting 546 00:41:22,540 --> 00:41:25,780 project. And actually, you're not the first person to mention 547 00:41:25,780 --> 00:41:29,680 the idea of knitting allowing you to offer kind of 548 00:41:29,710 --> 00:41:33,910 companionship, but without conversation. So that's 549 00:41:33,910 --> 00:41:37,720 something that maybe in the grief period... or also other 550 00:41:37,720 --> 00:41:41,200 people have spoken about being with somebody who's unwell in a 551 00:41:41,200 --> 00:41:44,950 hospital, and that the idea is you don't necessarily have to 552 00:41:44,950 --> 00:41:48,760 say anything. And I think in a bereavement period, often there 553 00:41:48,760 --> 00:41:51,880 isn't anything you can say that can make it any better, but that 554 00:41:51,880 --> 00:41:54,850 you want to kind of be alongside somebody, and that knitting has 555 00:41:55,150 --> 00:41:58,870 offered an almost unique way of being able to do that, where it 556 00:41:58,870 --> 00:42:01,570 feels okay that there isn't a conversation happening at the 557 00:42:01,570 --> 00:42:02,080 same time. 558 00:42:02,110 --> 00:42:04,780 Susan Yaguda: Yeah. You're just holding space. 559 00:42:06,730 --> 00:42:12,160 Mia Hobbs: Yeah. So those are your special socks. And it 560 00:42:12,160 --> 00:42:15,940 sounds like you've got a very positive relationship to them 561 00:42:16,090 --> 00:42:19,450 now, even though it was from quite a sad time, in a way, 562 00:42:19,480 --> 00:42:19,960 also. 563 00:42:21,280 --> 00:42:27,700 Susan Yaguda: Yeah, most definitely. He lived such an 564 00:42:27,700 --> 00:42:32,110 amazing life, so it wasn't like there was regret by any means. 565 00:42:32,200 --> 00:42:35,710 And I think that makes a huge difference in how you process 566 00:42:36,040 --> 00:42:40,090 loss. I miss him, you know, I still hear his voice telling me 567 00:42:40,090 --> 00:42:44,350 different things and stuff. But, again, it really comes from a 568 00:42:44,350 --> 00:42:47,110 place of gratitude, for sure. 569 00:42:47,570 --> 00:42:51,740 Mia Hobbs: Yeah, sure. So I always end the podcast with 570 00:42:51,740 --> 00:42:54,410 asking: what's the greatest gift knitting has given you for the 571 00:42:54,410 --> 00:42:57,200 rest of your life? I don't know what you think of when I ask 572 00:42:57,200 --> 00:42:58,040 that question. 573 00:42:59,420 --> 00:43:05,690 Susan Yaguda: Well, it's hard to choose just one. [Laughs] 574 00:43:05,690 --> 00:43:11,240 Definitely, it's that anchor to a mindfulness practice which has 575 00:43:11,240 --> 00:43:16,730 been really important to me, particularly through the 576 00:43:16,730 --> 00:43:23,750 pandemic as well. And again, I love the connection with my 577 00:43:23,750 --> 00:43:31,040 sisters and my mom, that we have that in common. And then the 578 00:43:31,040 --> 00:43:34,850 ability just to make something and share a bit of myself with 579 00:43:34,850 --> 00:43:40,370 somebody else, so that they know a piece of me was with them, 580 00:43:40,400 --> 00:43:43,190 whether it's a shawl or a sweater or a pair of mittens or 581 00:43:43,190 --> 00:43:43,370 whatever. 582 00:43:44,030 --> 00:43:46,130 Mia Hobbs: When you say that, are you talking about gifts? 583 00:43:46,510 --> 00:43:47,440 Susan Yaguda: Yeah. 584 00:43:50,290 --> 00:43:53,470 Mia Hobbs: And also in the conversations you have sometimes 585 00:43:53,470 --> 00:43:57,280 with your patients about knitting - I guess that's a way 586 00:43:57,280 --> 00:44:01,000 of sharing yourself too, isn't it, to talk about what you're 587 00:44:01,000 --> 00:44:02,500 knitting or what they're knitting? 588 00:44:03,130 --> 00:44:05,890 Susan Yaguda: It is. It's a great way to form a connection, 589 00:44:05,920 --> 00:44:10,120 and then people tend to feel safer, it seems, to talk about 590 00:44:10,120 --> 00:44:16,150 other things once once you've kind of formed that bond, if you 591 00:44:16,150 --> 00:44:16,600 will. 592 00:44:17,680 --> 00:44:21,160 Mia Hobbs: Yeah, sure. Susan, it's been such a pleasure to 593 00:44:21,160 --> 00:44:24,100 talk to you. Thank you so much for coming on the podcast. 594 00:44:24,400 --> 00:44:27,370 Susan Yaguda: Thank you so much for having me, and thank you for 595 00:44:27,370 --> 00:44:31,210 the work that you're doing. You're shining this great light 596 00:44:31,270 --> 00:44:36,610 on the importance of using knitting and crafting for our 597 00:44:36,610 --> 00:44:39,670 wellbeing and I really appreciate that you're doing 598 00:44:39,670 --> 00:44:39,970 that. 599 00:44:40,030 --> 00:44:41,500 Mia Hobbs: Oh thank you so much. 600 00:44:48,290 --> 00:44:51,350 Thank you so much for listening to the Why I Knit podcast. If 601 00:44:51,350 --> 00:44:53,510 you'd like to find out more about therapeutic knitting, you 602 00:44:53,510 --> 00:44:57,440 can follow me on Instagram @knittingistherapeutic or at my 603 00:44:57,440 --> 00:45:00,080 website www.therapeuticknitting.org. If 604 00:45:00,080 --> 00:45:02,330 you're enjoying the podcast, I would really appreciate it if 605 00:45:02,330 --> 00:45:05,930 you could leave a rating and a review on your podcast app. This 606 00:45:05,930 --> 00:45:08,390 will help grow the podcast and let more people know about the 607 00:45:08,390 --> 00:45:10,940 therapeutic benefits of knitting. And don't forget to 608 00:45:10,940 --> 00:45:12,470 subscribe too. Thank you!