Mia Hobbs: Hello and welcome back to series two of the Why I
Knit podcast. My name is Dr. Mia Hobbs and I'm a clinical
psychologist who's passionate about knitting and its benefits
for our mental wellbeing. Each episode I interview a different
knitter about why they knit and how it benefits their mental
health. This week on the podcast I'm joined by Susan Yaguda.
Susan is an oncology nurse working at The Cancer Institute
in Charlotte, North Carolina. Susan joins me to talk about how
knitting has benefited her own wellbeing and also how she's
used knitting in her place of work with both staff and
patients. Please note that during our discussion, we do
talk about cancer and bereavement.
So hi, Susan. Welcome to the podcast.
Susan Yaguda: Good morning! Thank you.
Mia Hobbs: It's afternoon here but morning where you are.
Susan Yaguda: Oh, it's good morning for me!
Mia Hobbs: What's the time where you are?
Susan Yaguda: It's 8 o'clock.
Mia Hobbs: 8 o'clock, so early! Thank you so much for joining
me.
Susan Yaguda: That's okay, I'm a morning person.
Mia Hobbs: Oh that's good, me too. I always start the podcast
by asking where your story with knitting began.
Susan Yaguda: I grew up in a family of knitters, to be honest
with you. I'm the youngest of six. My mom, my aunts, my
sisters all knit, growing up. For some reason, I did not. I'm
not sure why. I did some cross stitch and that type of thing
and really enjoyed that. And then when my children were in
Montessori school, they were quite young, and another mom,
who was an amazing knitter, said, "Hey, could we do a
mother-daughter knitting group?" And so I was up for that, and
there were several other moms. So we would get together, the
kids would kind of knit for a few minutes, and then they'd go
off and do their own thing. But we really, as parents, enjoyed
the sense of community and of course learning a new skill.
That was about 20 years ago, I think, as my daughter is now 28.
So I think she was around 8 years old when we did that. And
I haven't stopped since. It's just been such a blessing to my
life for so many reasons that I'm really grateful to that mom
for spearheading it and getting me started on it.
Mia Hobbs: So you hadn't knitted at all before that point?
Susan Yaguda: No.
Mia Hobbs: Oh wow!
Susan Yaguda: The funny thing is now, my sisters and my mom... my
Mia Hobbs: Yeah. So it really feels like part of your
mom is quite elderly so she doesn't knit as much now, but my
two sisters and I get together with my mom (particularly before
the pandemic we would) for what we would call a girls weekend.
We all had our knitting projects and have tea and good food and
wine and just really enjoy a nice weekend together, and
that's such precious time when I think about it now, that we just
enjoyed one another's company, but it was always around
knitting too. Sometimes we would go to the local yarn shop where
my mom lives and just enjoy that as well. So now we all share
patterns. We ask each other about different techniques we
might have questions about, and so it's really become something
that I'm very... I'm very close to my sisters but it's been
really a nice thing to bond us as well.
connection with your family now?
Susan Yaguda: Yeah!
Mia Hobbs: And do your kids still knit?
Susan Yaguda: I have a son and a daughter, and thinking back like
20 years ago, I did teach my son how to knit and he's actually
very good. He didn't keep it up, though. And my daughter, she'll
pick it up from time to time. She actually lives in the UK
now. And so, you know, being away from home has been
difficult during these past couple of years. And so I really
have encouraged her because it's been so helpful to me to have
something in my hands. And so she'll pick it up now and then,
and does still enjoy it, so who knows what she might do in 20
years? So we'll see.
Mia Hobbs: I think lots of people that I've interviewed,
and certainly for me, have had long dormant periods where they
didn't knit, and then suddenly it was the right moment in their
life, and they pick it up and kind of go with it again. You
said there are many ways it's been helpful for you. I'd love
to hear more about that: about why you knit and how it's been
helpful for you.
Susan Yaguda: So the practicality of it - I really
enjoy giving homemade gifts, handmade gifts to people. So
that's definitely part of it. I'm a little choosier now, who I
gift with my knitting, because I think I hear other knitters say
too, some people don't quite get it. But definitely, I have an
appreciative pool of family and friends, and enjoy doing that
for them. But really it's a mindfulness practice for me.
It's definitely a way... sometimes for me in the morning,
when I'm having my coffee, I'll just knit even if it's just for
five minutes. It just sets my day straight with a calmer
attitude, I think, about going into the day. And then
definitely towards the end of the day, too, I might have a cup
of tea and just pick up my knitting again. Even if I only
have a few minutes to do it, I still appreciate those moments,
just to de-stress, to kind of let go of anything that was
going on during the day so that I can get a restful night's
sleep. It really is a very big mindfulness practice for me.
Other than my sisters, I don't knit a whole lot with others.
But there is a sense of community, I think, around the
knitting world, whether that's through social media or going to
a local yarn shop. You can always talk to a knitter about
what they're doing, what they're interested in, and it inevitably
leads to other conversations too, that keep that kind of
sense of connectivity amongst us. And I think, particularly
during this pandemic time where we often feel disconnected, it's
really an important tool to to being connected with one
another. In my work it's really been important to connect with
patients even, and to allow them to connect with one another. So
I would say between being able to produce something that is
homemade and I can gift from my heart, to the mindfulness
practice, and then the connectivity piece of it, too,
it's just been a really rich hobby to have in my life.
Mia Hobbs: I'd love to go on to ask you, in a minute, more about
your work and how you've used knitting there. But first of
all, I'm curious for yourself, like have you got specific
things you prefer to knit? Does it matter what the knitting is,
in terms of the techniques?
Susan Yaguda: Yeah. So I usually have two things typically going
at once, and one is kind of a no-brainer - I can sit in a
meeting and it helps me pay attention, but not have to count
or follow a pattern or that type of thing. And then I like to
knit just about anything. I've gotten into socks and go in
spurts with that. Mittens... I had like a run on mittens! And
I'm working on a sweater right now for a friend's birthday.
Shawls... I really, really love to make shawls, especially if
the designer has some really clear instructions. Hats off to
designers! I think that it's just magic what they do, you
know, to be able to create a pattern, put it on paper, so
that I can just blindly follow the directions and then voila!
Here comes some beautiful piece, you know, just because they've
had that skill set to do that. So I do love to make shawls. I
haven't done certain techniques, like brioche I haven't tried.
Mia Hobbs: I haven't either, actually! I wondered whether
maybe this was the year for me. [Laughs]
Susan Yaguda: Yeah, me too! [Laughs] Yeah, so maybe try
that. I've done some lace work, and again I've enjoyed that,you
know, as long as I am able to pay attention to it as well. So
having something that's mindless, and then having
something where I do have to pay attention a little bit. I love
cables - to me they're magic as well, just how slipping one
direction or another just makes this beautiful pattern! And it's
fun to work on those too.
Mia Hobbs: So have you got times when you feel like you need the
more complicated pattern? It sounds like there are times
where you need the simple one, which is if you've got to pay
attention to something else. I'm interested in the times you
might need the more complicated one.
Susan Yaguda: Yeah, when you have to pay attention to
something, follow directions, make sure you're counting
properly, it kind of takes your mind away from other things that
might have been creating stress in your life or things you kind
of need to let go of. It's a nice distraction, if you will.
And then after working on something for a bit, the stuff
that was bothering you previously just doesn't seem to
be a big deal anymore and you can kind of let it go until
maybe the next day. And you'll address it with fresh eyes and
be able to maybe be more productive in how to manage
something that was going on. So there's also definitely times
where I'm like, "I can't concentrate on this right now.
I'm just going to enjoy the soothing aspect of the rhythm of
knitting and just feeling it in my hands, and go forward with
that, too."
Mia Hobbs: Yeah. You're a nurse, working in oncology, and I'm
really interested to hear about how you've brought knitting into
your place of work. I'd love to hear more about that.
Susan Yaguda: Yeah, thank you! So I manage a team of
integrative providers. We have a wide array of services. So we
don't treat cancer itself, but we help support people through
their cancer journey at any aspect along the way. And part
of my team is we have a group of artists. And so one of my
artists had started with us as a volunteer, and then we were able
to contract and bring her on, and she's just amazing. My whole
team is amazing, but she was really just open to anything.
And I said, "Hey, I really want to start a knitting and crochet
circle for our patients and care partners." And she was like,
"Sure, okay, but I need to learn how." [Laughs] So she went off
and took some lessons at a local yarn shop. And, of course, this
was several years ago, so she's a great knitter now, as well.
And so she started this group. Now it's on Zoom because we're
not meeting in person (hopefully, at some point in the
future), but I'm really happy that we were able to still
provide things virtually even, to help people stay connected.
And so the purpose of the group was not to do great knitting,
just like the purpose of the art programme is not to create great
art but it's really to use it as a processing opportunity to have
patients and care partners support one another. There's
something about when people have something that they're working
on in their hands, and for this group, obviously, it was
knitting, the conversation becomes much better flowing, I
think. People feel a little bit more comfortable sharing. They
find that they have shared experiences and can maybe have
their own experience authenticated because they're
hearing it from somebody else. It's just a very healing process
to have that type of support. And so Deborah, our artist that
was facilitating this and continues to, really her role is
just to maintain inclusivity with the group, to make sure
that the environment remains positive, that people feel
comfortable talking and sharing. And it's been just a really
positive experience all around. We also had some fun things come
out of that for community. So in our community, there's several
organisations. We're very philanthropically dependent, and
they help support us. And one is an organisation called 24
Foundation that does a 24-hour bike ride every summer in
Charlotte, where I live. It's a fundraiser, and a lot of those
funds go to support the programmes that I manage. And so
we got a bicycle, an older bicycle, and the people in the
knitting and crochet circle yarn bombed it! It's so cool-looking.
They did an amazing job. They had yarn bombed two chairs the
year previously, and we displayed them at a gala that we
had too, but this bike was something that we could give
back to the organisation that supports us, just as a way to
say thank you for all. So we bring it out when we have events
with them, and they in turn have gifted it back to us, and it's
actually hanging in our cancer rehab gym. But it's always just
a really nice reminder that we are all community supporting one
another through that. So that's been just fun. The chairs that
they did, it was really whimsical, little mice and
spider webs, and they did a beautiful job with that. And
those are on display in our cancer institution now, so
anybody can walk by and just enjoy taking a look at them. And
then from a medical perspective, I mean this is purely anecdotal,
but we had several patients who got chemotherapies that cause
neurotoxicity, and they can get neuropathy in their hands and
their feet, like a tingling and numbness. It really can be
distressing and impactful on things, even like buttoning a
shirt or walking safely, that type of thing. And one woman who
was really involved in this group also said that the
knitting helped her neuropathy, and she said, "If I could figure
out a way to knit with my toes, I could address it in my feet as
well!" But she swore that it was just keeping herself moving like
that, and maybe the tactile part of knitting, that helped her. So
that would be something that I would love to study at some
point. Can we really be impactful on that with something
so simple and low cost and extremely low risk, and make an
impact on something that really can be distressing to somebody
who's gone through cancer treatment.
Mia Hobbs: What's the kind of feedback you've had from people
who've engaged in the knitting, so some of the people receiving
treatment for cancer?
Susan Yaguda: It's really heartwarming to go into the
infusion suite and see people there knitting as a way to pass
the time. Oftentimes, they're there for several hours.
Mia Hobbs: Is that when they're receiving their chemotherapy?
Susan Yaguda: Yeah. And they really appreciate the community.
They come together when... you know, inevitably we have to say
goodbye to certain people at different times, and they really
come together as a community to support one another through that
grieving process. I think it also shines the light on...
well, for all of us but especially if you also are
dealing with cancer... your own mortality, and really coming to
terms with that, because you've lost somebody that you've been
close to. So I really appreciate that they form kind of a support
group amongst themselves. So that has been definitely one of
the outcomes that I was hoping for. The other thing is they
really have appreciated, particularly during the
pandemic, having knitting as a hobby to continue with during
their time when they've had to be more isolated, as well. The
other thing that is so cool about this group is they also...
(this wasn't intentional, they just kind of came up with this
organically)... they'll knit caps for patients who have lost
their hair because of chemotherapy, scarves,
fingerless mitts, that type of thing, and then they go to our
resource centre and then anybody who's in need can take something
like that. To know that it came from somebody else who has
walked your path as well, I think is really meaningful.
Mia Hobbs: There's a project here actually, that I've seen on
the news, called Knitted Knockers. I don't know if you've
heard of that?
Susan Yaguda: Oh yeah! We did that. People continue to make
knockers. It's really taken off, hasn't it? It's so fun. And, you
know, women who require a prosthesis really like the
knitted knockers. They're soft, they're light, they're washable,
you can form them to fit yourselves perfectly, they're
free... you know, prostheses can be very expensive. With some
local yarn shops in our community, we did a knitted
knocker campaign, and then the fire department has a pink
firetruck and so they stopped at the yarn shops, and we filled
the firetruck up with knitted knockers! There were bags of
them! [Laughs] And then they delivered them to the Cancer
Institute, then we had to sort them and get them where they
needed to be in that way. But that was such, again, another
fun community project.
Mia Hobbs: It sounds like some of the people in the group have
been very inventive about finding ways to have a more kind
of group knitting experience. Because I guess a lot of us,
even if we're knitting in a group, often the project is just
ours, I suppose, or we might be knitting something that's just
ours. It's not that often you knit something that is part of a
kind of cooperative project.
Susan Yaguda: Yeah, we really saw it particularly when they
Mia Hobbs: Yeah. And have you had the opportunity to go and
were able to meet in person and work on the yarn bombing pieces,
because they had to kind of plan it out together. And again,
nobody was telling anybody, "Here, you have to do this." It
just all came very organically. But it was fun to kind of be a
fly on the wall and just peek in and watch them and hear their
conversations. It just really fills my heart because that was
exactly what I wanted when I said, "Can we start this?"
join in with knitting with them at all? Or is that difficult?
Susan Yaguda: I haven't since they have gone to Zoom, and it's
also during my work day. So sometimes I don't have the time
to do that during the work day. But when they did meet in
person, I would often just stop by, because they're lovely
people anyway so I would always love to catch up with them
regardless, but just to again, like I said, hear their
conversation and see what they were working on. To see them
helping each other, because there were some that were very,
very skilled knitters helping others that are maybe new at
something, new to knitting or new at a technique, and really
to have that fellowship within the group is really precious to watch.
Mia Hobbs: Yeah. And that's brilliant for both parties,
isn't it? It's brilliant to be somebody who can share a skill.
That gives you a sense of self esteem, I guess, doesn't it? And
also to be able to be somewhere where you think, "Oh, these
experienced people can help me with this thing I'd like to get
better at."
Susan Yaguda: Yeah, definitely. It definitely goes both
directions.
Mia Hobbs: Yeah. And you mentioned that you've been
involved in a research project to do with knitting. I'd love to
hear a bit more about that.
Susan Yaguda: Yeah, sure. So one thing that patients receiving
chemotherapy sometimes experience is something called
chemo brain. And if you're not familiar with that, it is just
difficulty after finishing chemo or even during, with tasks that
normally would have come easily to you. So it could be things
like sequencing or memory issues or word finding even sometimes,
and it's very distressing to patients to experience this. And
it's especially distressing when they finally finish treatment
and then they're like, "Okay, I'm going back to work." You
know, it's like some sense of hopefully some normalcy in their
lives again, but then they're having really some difficulties
functioning to their pre-cancer diagnosis levels. And so one of
my colleagues is a neuropsychologist and she
started knitting because we... This is another story, but we
started with my teammates. We had a couple of knit nights and
taught them how to knit, and several of my teammates
continued to knit as well, which has been really fun. And Jen,
the neuropsychologist, is one of those that has continued to
that. And so finally, I was like, "I know how knitting makes
me feel, as far as calming my mind and all of that." And we
got talking about the bilateral aspects of knitting, and we also
were thinking about chemo brain. It's not fully understood, why
it occurs. It could be related to inflammation or who knows.
But we were looking through the literature and did not see
anything that looked at increasing neuroplasticity
around cancer-related cognitive impairments. And so we wanted to
see: could teaching somebody to knit make an impact on their
cognitive impairment? So we did a pilot study, and we had the
support from Universal Yarn, which is a big yarn company,
particularly here in the US - I think it is in Europe, too. They
have a headquarters very close to Charlotte, and they provided
us with yarn and with needles and really put together these
nice kits for the study. And we enrolled patients who had
finished the chemotherapy and were self-describing some
cognitive impairment. And they could not have been knitters
before, so it had to be completely a new skill. And then
they came in and we gave them a battery of neuropsych tests,
which are all validated for the age group within the inclusion
criteria. And then we had a volunteer working with us, and
she taught them to knit. And so she would have groups of maybe
1-3 women. They were all women. It wasn't designed to be all
women, but that's the way it fell, which I think is another
thing I'd like to change at some point along the road.
Mia Hobbs: So that was who opted in?
Susan Yaguda: Yeah. They learned to knit. They got a project - it
was a scarf. And then they had another lesson, we gave them
videos, we checked in with them every week, and then 8 weeks
later they came back in. They had to have at least 8 inches of
their scarf done so we knew that they were doing it. So we had to
measure it, and then they were re-tested. And what we found was
really fascinating, in my opinion. All of them tested
within the normal range at the start; however, it may have been
low for them. They were all college educated, they were all
professionals, that's the group that we got for this pilot.
However, the distress levels were quite high across the
group. Post-intervention, they all improved cognitively, in
certain domains at least. I think almost 70% of the group
improved cognitively in at least one of the domains that we
tested. Across the board, they all significantly reported less
distress. That was just really validating, that there's
something going on, whether it is neuroplasticity, or whether
it's decreasing stress so you're able to manage some of those
challenges better. I mean, who knows? We're really eager to dig
a little bit deeper into the whole 'what's happening behind
the veil' kind of thing. We had to close accrual early because
Mia Hobbs: Because like you said, from a research
of the pandemic. We ended up with 16 people, I think, going
through and we'd wanted to get 18, I think. So just a little
perspective, it would be great. It's such a shame you had to
bit short of our original goal, but enough to have some
significant data. And to this day, I hear from people in the
finish early because of COVID. And it'd be great to do a trial
study and they're still knitting! That's another win of
the whole thing. So I look at this as such a low-hanging fruit
with a control group and lots of measures. But even without that,
for an intervention for a condition that is incredibly
distressing for our patients, and how simple it could be, how
it sounds like it has offered a great benefit, even just
inexpensive it could be, how low risk it could be to really
provide this for people who are interested.
anecdotally, or in terms of stress reduction, or giving
people a coping mechanism to take with them for the rest of
their lives. That sounds like it actually has been a super
helpful intervention already.
Susan Yaguda: Yeah. And the neuropsych tasks were all
validated tasks, so we really felt confident about those. They
weren't tasks that you could do well with repetition, you know,
we made sure we didn't have that practice benefit with the tests
that she chose. So we do know that there was benefit. But
yeah, to have a control group would have been nice, since they
were each their own control, but there's so many areas that we
could dig in and explore further that it makes it exciting, for
sure.
Mia Hobbs: And I think you mentioned, while we were
messaging about setting up this conversation, that you'd quite
like to have a group for professionals as well, so for
healthcare staff. I haven't done it formally for that purpose,
but in the past I've informally ended up having groups of
colleagues in health settings to mainly create gifts for somebody
who's having a baby, but have really noticed the positive
effect it's had on team morale, and that we've had different
conversations, that people have been kind of taking a lunch
break for half an hour, once a week, to sit and knit together,
and that it really did feel beneficial, I suppose, on a team
level. I'm interested in what your hopes were for that.
Susan Yaguda: Yeah, definitely. So we did do for just my
department. At the time, we were in a different location while
our current building was being built, and it was tight
quarters, you know, which has its own challenges. But we had a
couple of knit nights, and it was just a time again, for
whomever wanted to, to come together, learn to knit. And
then, similar to what you're talking about, we did find
people sitting at lunchtime knitting. And then we also found
we were able to help each other out with questions about a
skill, or, "Oh, I dropped a stitch. What happened here?",
that type of thing. And it did allow us as a group of
colleagues to interact on a bit of a different level. And then
several of my colleagues really use knitting now as a self care
practice. It's a relaxing thing that they go to daily, almost,
in order to just take better care of themselves. So that's
been really positive. I think, you know, it's no surprise to
anybody how strained the health care profession is right now,
globally. And interestingly, before the pandemic, I had been
working with some other people on my team on moral injury and
resilience, and what can we do to help support one another, to
build up resilience and address moral injury in a positive way.
And then to think that we were doing that work before COVID,
and now what people are having to deal with still two years
later, it's unfathomable. And I really feel like we need to now
kind of shift gears and look at trauma care. How are we helping
our colleagues through trauma, because that's what this has
been, for so many people. And I don't want to simplify things to
the point of saying, "Oh, just give everybody knitting needles
and some yarn, and it's all fine." But I do think that
knitting serves a role in the toolbox as a self care practice,
as a way of soothing. We know that the rhythm of the movement,
of using both hands, has neurological impact. And so I do
think that it could be a useful tool for colleagues to be able
to use for self care. There was a study that some nurses in
Washington did, that I think Project Knitwell helped support.
And again, this was several years ago, with oncology nurses.
They taught them to knit, and the outcomes and the feedback
from those who participated was really positive, how it was
really soothing. And when I was re-reading the manuscript,
"soothing" kind of kept coming up, and I kind of feel like
yeah, it is soothing. And that's maybe part of the benefit of us
bringing it to somebody. We're not going to fix the issues in
our healthcare system by knitting, but if we can help
somebody feel better for a little bit of time and then be
able to be a bit more refreshed to go handle what they need to
handle, then maybe that's our role at this point. So I'm
looking at creating honestly like a toolkit for my
colleagues, our teammates across our system, that has a variety
of ways to take care of yourself and to address the trauma of
what you have experienced during all this time. So I think it
will definitely have a role there.
Mia Hobbs: Yeah, I think that's really true. I've had quite a
few health professionals get in touch with me since starting the
podcast, talking about the idea of having a group with their
colleagues. And I think the tricky thing is, like you said,
it doesn't have to be just knitting, and knitting isn't
going to be for everybody, but the idea of maybe the system or
prioritising self care for the health care staff, because you
can't pour from an empty cup. And in the pandemic, it started
off as a sprint and it's now a marathon. But people are just
getting slowly more exhausted, I guess, and like you said,
traumatised. But it is interesting, the idea of one of
the trauma therapies, EMDR, is focused on using bilateral
movements a bit similar to knitting. And when I spoke to
Betsan Corkhill, I interviewed her for series one about that,
and she said there have been ideas about doing some studies
using knitting as the bilateral movement in the EMDR, so trauma
processing. So it'd be really interesting. I think the tricky
thing is funding for all of these studies.
Susan Yaguda: Most definitely.
Mia Hobbs: And also for the self care for the health
professionals! That's also the problem, isn't it? Getting that
as a priority and funding it.
Susan Yaguda: Yeah, most definitely. However, if you look
at the cost of replacing a critical care nurse, for
example, it's quite costly, especially somebody who has a
lot of experience. And then who are we replacing them with? So I
think that's one thing. And, you know, I'm talking about health
care professionals but it's really across the board. My
heart breaks for our teachers, for parents with young children,
and how they're managing all of this and trying to work and keep
their children happy and healthy. It's across the board -
service providers of any sort. Our resources are not an
unending bucket. There is a bottom to that. So if we don't
start to really take care of what we've got, it's going to be
quite impactful.
Mia Hobbs: Interesting, because I was going into a primary
school to offer a therapeutic knitting group, and a number of
the staff said, "When are you doing one for staff?" And I also
love the idea of the parent and child knitting group that you
started off talking about. I think that's a lovely idea, to
be able to have an activity to share between parents and
children. I'd love to ask you about a significant knitting
project, Susan. Can you think of one, for yourself?
Susan Yaguda: Yeah, certainly. It's so interesting to hear
other people's stories about knitting through grief. And I
think that, for me, I have a pair of socks... it was just
Mia Hobbs: I guess you want to take really good care of them!
when I was just getting to knit socks, so I still was not very
confident about what I was doing. I had to pay attention
quite some bit. But my dad had gotten ill and finally we got
him into hospice care, which was such a blessing, and I'll never
forget sitting with my mom. It was New Year's Eve that year,
and it was just quiet in his room, and I really just wanted
to be there for her, as well. And so I had my socks I was
working on during that time. And I also wanted to give her the
space to to be with this man that she'd been with for 70
years, during his final days. So I could work on my socks and
kind of be there for my mom, but also be in the background for
her to have some quiet time with him. He ended up dying, like two
days later, very peacefully. And those socks are just so special
to me because it just reminds me of how blessed I am to have had
him for all these years as a father, but also how blessed I
Susan Yaguda: I do, yeah!
am to have been in that space with him and my mom. I'm just so
fortunate to be able to be there, and be there with both of
them. And for myself, as well. So those are my special socks. I
don't wear them a whole lot, but I pull them out once in a while.
Mia Hobbs: It's interesting, Susan, that you mentioned that
actually, because I think, like you said, grief has come up
quite a lot when I ask people about a significant knitting
project. And actually, you're not the first person to mention
the idea of knitting allowing you to offer kind of
companionship, but without conversation. So that's
something that maybe in the grief period... or also other
people have spoken about being with somebody who's unwell in a
hospital, and that the idea is you don't necessarily have to
say anything. And I think in a bereavement period, often there
isn't anything you can say that can make it any better, but that
you want to kind of be alongside somebody, and that knitting has
offered an almost unique way of being able to do that, where it
feels okay that there isn't a conversation happening at the
same time.
Susan Yaguda: Yeah. You're just holding space.
Mia Hobbs: Yeah. So those are your special socks. And it
sounds like you've got a very positive relationship to them
now, even though it was from quite a sad time, in a way,
also.
Susan Yaguda: Yeah, most definitely. He lived such an
amazing life, so it wasn't like there was regret by any means.
And I think that makes a huge difference in how you process
loss. I miss him, you know, I still hear his voice telling me
different things and stuff. But, again, it really comes from a
place of gratitude, for sure.
Mia Hobbs: Yeah, sure. So I always end the podcast with
asking: what's the greatest gift knitting has given you for the
rest of your life? I don't know what you think of when I ask
that question.
Susan Yaguda: Well, it's hard to choose just one. [Laughs]
Definitely, it's that anchor to a mindfulness practice which has
been really important to me, particularly through the
pandemic as well. And again, I love the connection with my
sisters and my mom, that we have that in common. And then the
ability just to make something and share a bit of myself with
somebody else, so that they know a piece of me was with them,
whether it's a shawl or a sweater or a pair of mittens or
whatever.
Mia Hobbs: When you say that, are you talking about gifts?
Susan Yaguda: Yeah.
Mia Hobbs: And also in the conversations you have sometimes
with your patients about knitting - I guess that's a way
of sharing yourself too, isn't it, to talk about what you're
knitting or what they're knitting?
Susan Yaguda: It is. It's a great way to form a connection,
and then people tend to feel safer, it seems, to talk about
other things once once you've kind of formed that bond, if you
will.
Mia Hobbs: Yeah, sure. Susan, it's been such a pleasure to
talk to you. Thank you so much for coming on the podcast.
Susan Yaguda: Thank you so much for having me, and thank you for
the work that you're doing. You're shining this great light
on the importance of using knitting and crafting for our
wellbeing and I really appreciate that you're doing
that.
Mia Hobbs: Oh thank you so much.
Thank you so much for listening to the Why I Knit podcast. If
you'd like to find out more about therapeutic knitting, you
can follow me on Instagram @knittingistherapeutic or at my
website www.therapeuticknitting.org. If
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