Welcome to Gospel Talks podcast, where we help Christians all over the world become more effective in relational evangelism and discipleship.

I'm George Bonoka.

I'm your co host today.

With me today is Pastor Jeff Musgrave, the founder and author of the Exchange.

And we're here to answer your questions about relationships, discipleship and evangelism and give you biblical practical answers.

Welcome back to episode number 25.

Thank you guys for your patience.

Taking these couple weeks, kind of taking a hiatus, not because we've stopped, but just because we're making a transition to a new platform for the podcast.

Just got to join a really cool community of podcasts called Christian Podcast Community.

I hope it's okay to mention that, Jeff.

Absolutely excited about it.

Very, very excited about it.

And we're also kind of catching up on our video production side.

So if you not had a chance to go over to our YouTube channel, lots of content there.

Thank you guys for your support, your encouragement.

And the listener questions are golden.

And so if you ever have a question, if you're watching us on social media or YouTube, Facebook, Instagram, and you want to drop a question in one of the comments, we do look at those closely and we will make an episode out of it.

Well, we're back here on the question of our listener from Kentucky and basically asking you guys at the end of every episode, say, hey, you know, you're praying to the Lord of the harvest that he send forth laborers.

What on earth does that mean?

And we're going to be kind of picking up here in Mark 4, and you know, the exchange, and I know, Jeff, you're very big on this for as long as I've known you, and that's now 12 years.

When I was 18 is when I first met Jeff and Anna and never been shy about God's promise in this regard, and maybe you can talk about it a little bit that the harvest is truly plentiful.

Whatever the naysayers might state about the condition of evangelism and the opportunities and the context, especially especially here in the United States, being colder, whatever that is, as hard as it may get, the promise still stands true and God will raise up the laborers.

I mean, that is the primary issue.

It's not a harvest problem, It's a labor issue.

Yeah.

In fact, I think when we say things like, you know, people are just hard these days, they're not interested.

We actually are impugning the power of the gospel and impugning the work of the Lord.

We believe that God is on the move that Right there he is actively working in the hearts of people, wooing them to Himself, and inviting laborers to join him.

And that's why we are so motivated to pray the Lord of Harvest, because the harvest is plenteous.

It's the laborers that are the problem.

And God's solution is to pray.

That's why the exchange is so passionate about laborers, about training laborers and equipping laborers.

And that's really the whole thrust and motive behind Gospel Talks itself.

Yeah.

Well, what do you see here in Mark chapter four as it applies to that particular topic?

Well, it's interesting.

You know, the whole promise of Jesus in Matthew 9 is about a harvest.

And then he uses several farming parables in the Bible as he teaches through life.

Of course, we know that probably one of the reasons he was using harvest parables is because it was all around him.

I mean, he was teaching in a rural area.

And so the harvest and farmers were all part of daily life there.

Some of that we have to kind of think through a little differently because it's not so much a part of our daily life.

And so I think extracting principles out of these harvest parables are quite important.

But I also think they're kind of fun.

I enjoy it.

So I'm actually starting today if anyone is wanting to look along on their Bible.

In Mark, chapter four.

Mark, chapter four, Jesus tells this parable that we looked at a couple of weeks ago in Matthew 13, where he says, you know, they got these different kinds of soils.

And the disciples are saying, jesus, why are you doing this?

We don't understand.

And so Jesus makes a promise in between both the parable and then the explanation of the parable.

And this is in verse 11 of Mark 4, where he says unto you, speaking of his disciples, it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God.

And I love that promise, George, because it helps me to recognize that this is not something difficult to understand, that God's not making it hard.

It does seem hard sometimes, but he's actually wanting us, his disciples, to see it and to understand it.

So that means when I look at these passages, I'm a little more motivated because of this confidence that he wants me to know, to find what he wants me to see there.

It's a tremendous promise from Jesus that He's the one that opens our minds so that we can understand.

That's pretty incredible.

So it's pretty exciting to me that when we read our Bible, we can expect the Holy Spirit to show us.

So it gives me kind of motivation to look into here and see, okay, what is it that God wants me to find in these parables that he's teaching us in verses 14 to 20?

We actually looked at this in Matthew.

Now we'll look at it again in Mark.

He gives us keys, and these keys actually help me.

They instruct me how to be strategic in regards to evangelism and discipleship.

What specifically is important and what we should focus on.

And I think the first key is right there in verse 14, where he literally says that the word or the seed is the word.

And he's just making it very clear that when he's talking about planting seed and watching it grow and producing fruit, that what makes it happen is the word of God.

The word of God is the seed.

And then secondly, he tells us that these birds that come and pluck away, and then later the persecution that comes, and then later the weeds that come, all of those come as a result of the work of Satan in our lives.

So these are two keys for us to be able to look at and say, so we know that Satan is attacking the word and trying to keep us from using.

Utilizing the word in seeing fruit.

And so those things are all very, very helpful to me.

I do think it's important for us to rem.

Satan was defeated at the cross.

The reality is, though, that he is still in a desperate battle to thwart the rescue mission that Jesus completed in terms of being able to provide for us.

But now we're in the process of seeing people come to Christ, watching Jesus rescue their lives.

Satan is still doing his best to stop us because we are now the entrusted laborers that God is using.

Several things we see Satan doing in this passage that really helps us.

The first is we see him taking the word from their hearts.

I know you've seen this before, George, where you actually talk to someone, you feel like they're interested, and then it's like stuff gets between you and them and you don't get to see them for a while.

And it's like it falls through the cracks.

Yeah, yeah, happens all the time.

It's terrible.

It's a terrible feeling.

It is.

And I think that one of the things that it helps me to do is to say, okay, when that starts happening, rather than just getting my feelings hurt that that person doesn't want to see me anymore.

They just must not like this.

They don't want this kind of conversation.

But to recognize, no, that's the work of the enemy.

And remember, the Bible gives us this promise.

Resist the devil and he will flee from you.

And so that's the time to really pour on the steam.

And by the way, when I say that, I don't necessarily mean.

And I know you know this.

It's not necessarily that we're pouring on the steam to get more gospel to them, but that's where the relational side of things come in.

We want to take care of our friend.

We want to spend time with them, get close to them, because that's going to renew the opportunity to put the seed back into their life.

Absolutely.

It's.

There's an article actually coming out Anna wrote called Relentless Pursuit.

And those are words I've had in my mind for a long, long time.

She wrote this beautiful two part.

Two articles actually out of the same concept.

But, yeah, we have to be willing to go after him.

But you're right.

I mean, Satan hates this.

He's gonna try to.

He's gonna try to destroy it somehow derail it.

It's kind of terrible that way.

Absolutely.

And by the way, just a great place to put in there that we have these weekly blog posts that are published and we would love for you to see them.

If you're on our mailing list, we'll get a prompt of them.

I just encourage you to notice those when they come in.

If you're not on our mailing list and you would like to receive this, you can just go to our website, exchangemessage.org and go to the blog section and you can see there the most recent blogs.

And by the way, when you're there, connect with us there and send us an email so that we can have your email and get you on that mailing list.

Yeah, absolutely.

That's under Resources.

If you scroll at the top menu, you go under Resources.

Blog is the first option.

You guys will love those.

They'll be a great encouragement.

We've got several exchange trainers writing there, so there's a variety of writers.

But.

But yeah, you're right, Pastor Jeff.

This is a struggle.

You know that Satan, Satan trying to take away the Word, the most effective tool, you know, that God's given us for evangelism.

It's interesting to me as well that in the next soil that the attack on new believers is from Satan himself.

And what he says is that he attacks the Word in their lives.

And so again, this helps me recognize what the new believer needs is the Word.

Sometimes we get it in our brains.

We've given them the Word, they got saved, and that's the big crisis.

But now Satan pours on the steam.

He's really trying to keep them growing.

And again, what he persecutes and what he is constantly trying to destroy in their lives is the ministry of the Word.

So I think meeting weekly with the people that we've led to the Lord and helping them grow, that's where living the exchange comes in.

In terms of our circle of ministry is helping people not only to receive Christ using the Exchange Bible study, but then planning to weekly meet with them and try to help them grow in the Lord, see the reality of the life that God has given to them and let that life grow.

But grows through the ministry of the Word.

Absolutely.

And if it's.

And if it's what's.

If it's what he hates, if that's the thing he's trying to take away, it's a good indication to us as Christians that ought to be the thing we're pouring out.

That's what I love about the Exchange bible study.

It's 150 verses designed to answer the questions of somebody who doesn't know Christ.

Take them all the way from the unknown to being in a full relationship with Jesus, and it's Bible heavy.

It does that lifting for you.

And there's something about you getting out of the way and just letting them go right to Scripture and see the Scripture for.

For themselves.

Absolutely.

I think it's interesting as well.

And that next one where the weeds come in and choke again, it says that it's choking the Word.

And I just think there are so many this is now mature Christians that are not fruitful.

And I think that really is all of us from time to time.

And we need to look at our own lives and recognize that the things that are in our life that are crowding, they're not just crowding productivity, they're crowding the Word.

It's the Word, the ministry of the Word in our life.

So I think making sure we're making time for church, making sure we're making time and energy and seeing Jesus in the Word daily, spending that time not just reading your Bible, but spending time with him, seeing him as we spend that time in the Word.

The Word is the ministry that's going to help us with all of that.

Yeah, it's the growth factor in a Christian's life.

It's what the Holy Spirit uses to change us to become more like Jesus.

Definitely.

Absolutely.

So then it's interesting that he moves on to a different parable in this passage.

And in verses 21, 22, he says, you know, no one lights a light and Puts it under a bushel, he takes it out and he puts it on a lampstand because it's going to have better priority.

And I think one of the things that this helps me see is that in terms of being a light to the dark world, not only do I have to be strategic, but I also have to be intentional.

I think those two words in my mind really help me to determine the kind of life I'm living.

So I need to be intentional in that I am constantly carrying the light to people and I need to be strategic in that I want to get the word to them.

That's the strategy that we use over and over, is the exchange Bible study, because it's the word.

But those two going together so intentionally meeting people, letting them see Jesus in us, and then trying to shine that word into their lives by doing a Bible study.

Absolutely.

And.

And I think sometimes the opposite of intentional is not just being haphazard, but actually for most of us, we're aware of the needs around us.

It's not being timid.

It's not being timid.

Yeah.

I heard John Piper once say that we in Christianity have a built in timidity and it is not attractive.

Yeah.

It's just not a.

It's not a good thing for believers.

And yet we do have to struggle with that all the time.

Yeah, yeah, absolutely.

The last piece that I wanted to look at in this passage, verses 26 to 29, I call this the Parable of the Soul farmer because it shows a picture of a man.

And of course you probably know the passage.

I'm going to look it up here on my Bible.

It says, and the kingdom of God is like a man that would scatter seed on the ground.

He sleeps and rises night and day, and the seed sprouts and grows and he knows not how.

And the earth produces by itself, first the blade, then the ear, then the full corn in the ear.

And when the grain is ripe at once he puts in the sickle because the harvest has come.

And of course you can see how that parallels what we've been talking about, that the harvest is plenteous.

But this kind of shows us a bit of a process that goes on here.

And to me, this parable motivates me to be diligent and to not just hit and run, not just pounce on people and give them the truth.

And if they reject, they reject, but to be a soul farmer, to put in the seed, to be patiently waiting, watching, cultivating.

And so this is really, really helpful to me to Be able to see this process.

Yeah, yeah.

I gotta be honest, I've never thought about this parable as an instruction for evangelism.

I probably glanced right over it, you know, when I go through it in my Bible reading.

And, and I mean, we were talking about this before we even started recording, but this is packed.

I can't wait to see the things you're going to pull out of this.

But this is awesome.

I mean, right there, first thing, right off the bat, he's a hard worker, and that's okay.

We should relentlessly pursue.

And that's hard work.

Yeah, it is hard work.

And I think that we have to recognize that though God is the one that's doing the work, we have to work hard with him.

That's what God called us to do.

You know, we've talked in that Matthew 9 passage where Jesus first told about the harvest being plenteous.

He had preached the gospel to all the cities and villages of Galilee.

And he worked hard in those three years of earthly ministry.

Yeah.

I mean, there were times he was so exhausted he could fall asleep in the middle of a storm on a boat.

Absolutely.

Absolutely.

I think it's interesting too, though, to see that he is not only working hard, but he's waiting purposefully.

And in the waiting process, it says that he sleeps and rises.

And literally what he's doing is he is watching for God's miraculous work.

I think sometimes we, you know, there's two extremes in evangelism.

We just leave it all to God and people are gonna get saved or they're.

Or we try to make it happen.

And even though God calls us to work hard, we can't make it happen.

God is the one who makes it happen.

He's the one who's calling.

And I love the picture here where it says that he knows not how.

The implication is it's miraculous every single time to this farmer.

I mean, I don't even know how this happens.

I just put in the seed and out comes this harvest.

And it's all the work of God.

God built it into the system.

And as we use the seed, the word of God, there is going to be a work that God does in people's lives through a harvest.

Yeah, yeah.

And I think there's something very innocent and humble about a person who looks at that seed and goes, well, I don't know how that happens.

I think one of the things to our detriment is sometimes when we are so, so, so trained in some of these things, that knowledge puffs up and then we get a little arrogant about, like, well, I can make it happen.

Because, like, you know, I took the exchange seminar, which.

The exchange seminar is awesome, but let me tell you, you still need God, you know?

Yeah.

In fact, I tell people all the time, you know, I wish I had a silver bullet and said, you know, if you do it just the way I tell you.

But it's really not about us.

It's about the Lord and how God does it.

I love the way it says the earth produces by itself.

And I just think we have to be willing to trust the Holy Spirit to use the word of God in the hearts of our friends and be patient.

It's a powerful waiting game.

You know, we have to be patient with them.

That doesn't mean, by the way, that we sit back and do nothing.

But it does mean that we don't try to push them.

We don't try to make it happen.

But we are.

I mean, looking at the way this soul farmer works, it says when the grain is ripe at once, he puts in the sickle because the harvest has come.

And it's clear he is watching for that to happen.

I had a opportunity this week, George, to interact with one of your friends.

I always write an email to people who buy something from our store.

And I wrote an email and got a email back from a guy that you had led to the Lord, and he was talking to me about that very thing, that he was just impressed not only by the impact that the exchange Bible study had on his heart, but your wisdom in letting him kind of figure it out and grow in his understanding.

Yeah, I think I can probably guess who you're talking about.

But, yeah, it's funny.

He's in love with the exchange.

I mean, he's buying it so much, I'm actually telling him, you might slow down.

I'm a little worried about you.

But he's in an exchange Bible study with a Catholic guy.

And what's amazing is that waiting does sometimes feel like you're doing nothing.

But waiting is a very active thing.

It might be passive aggressive, but you're sitting there, you're waiting.

That's a hard thing sometimes, you know, like, think of a soldier who has to keep watch and has to stay alert and active in his mind and not try not to, like, lose vigilance.

Waiting is evangelistic vigilance.

You know what I mean?

And so you're waiting on God, though, which means you're in prayer as well.

And it's amazing.

Yeah.

In his life.

I saw that completely.

Yeah.

I Think that this is.

You used a word passive aggressive.

I think we use that in kind of a bad way in some people's personalities.

But there.

There is a time in which we are waiting, but we're not waiting, doing nothing.

We're waiting, watching, anticipating.

And this is literally us trusting that the Holy Spirit is doing what he promised he'd do.

And then I love that he immediately put in the sickle.

He was.

At once he was ready.

He was excited about it.

And it shows that he was not just planting seeds.

I hear people say this all the time.

You know, I don't.

I don't see very many people saved, but I plant seeds all the time.

And I think to myself, you wouldn't be a very good farmer if all you do is plant and never expect to harvest.

Yeah, yeah.

I think we actually talked about this as an article topic one time for the exchange website.

We said was it.

We were going to entitle the article.

What kind of farmer is always planting but never harvesting?

Yeah, yeah.

One that's starving.

Yeah, yeah.

He's not living long.

So I do think that it's important for us to see that.

And these are just a couple of principles I'm going to extract and to be done that soul farmers have to play for the long game.

Yes.

So our connection with our unbelieving friends is working, recognizing that this is the work of God working in their hearts.

We have to be patient with them.

I have a friend, Michael.

He's on our board.

And literally the process from seeing him invited to do an exchange Bible study to when he got saved was almost a year.

He actually said no to begin with.

But then eventually the Lord used something, brought him back to an understanding.

I really want to look into this.

I wondered.

It took me so long to do that Bible study.

I genuinely wondered if the guy was genuinely interested.

But it was playing that long game, letting the Holy Spirit do that network.

You know, Michael is on the board of the exchange.

I think I said that.

And I don't think we could do our ministry effectively without him.

It's just that that's.

That's.

That's the product, that's the.

That's the fruit that eventually came out of that.

Yeah, yeah.

And I've spoken to Michael several times, and he's just a joy.

He's growing like crazy still.

And he's trying to lead his neighbor to Christ, going running with his neighbor to trying to, you know, co worker.

I can't remember which one it was, but anyway, he's.

He's always asking for prayers.

So that's really cool to see the fruit of that and actually meet these people.

Yeah, it is, it is.

And then secondly, the so farmer, when he puts that seed in the ground, he doesn't necessarily expect the harvest from the first contact.

And I just think this is a principle now.

That's not to say that if he went into the field and there was fruit there that he wouldn't take it home with him.

I mean, I think that when we find people ready to be saved, we should immediately allow them to and encourage them to trust the Lord right then.

But recognize that our expectation is we gotta give people room and multiple touches with this truth before we can expect them to make a decision that's gonna be a credible decision.

I think this is a big deal.

I think the thing you're talking about is a huge, huge deal.

And when we don't have the patience to play the long game, I think we can really burn some relationships because you're forcing something and God hasn't.

He's not there yet with them.

And the guy, the guy you were talking with, emailing with that we had done the exchange together, we're right now we've built a friendship with some of his friends that they're not ready.

And I mean, six months, I mean we.

That guy's wife that we're building a relationship with, she's probably here in my house three times a week with Lexi sitting on my couch just talking about life.

And we're just sitting there waiting like we've been trained in the exchange seminar.

We're waiting for those surface conversations to go down to soul level conversation.

We're waiting for her to bring up some of those soul needs, but they just haven't done it yet.

And that's okay.

We just can love them and befriend them and wait for God to do his thing.

Yeah.

And by the way, I think all of you know by now George and Lexi are constantly doing the Bible study with people.

So they're not waiting because they're afraid.

They're waiting because they really believe God is doing, doing a work.

And I'm expecting it, I'm watching it, and I'm going to move when the time is right.

So that's really valuable.

I think that one of the things that you're doing there is that you're not focusing on yourself and what you want.

You're focusing on your friend and what she needs.

And I just think that's really critical.

And then the last thing, and this really is kind of the last one.

And that is that it doesn't do our friends any favors to try to push them, Just like it doesn't do the farmer.

He goes out and sees the apple tree and all the apples are green.

It's not going to do himself or that apple any favor by pulling it before it's ready.

You know, he just ruined the fruit and he's ruined his chance to have harvest.

So that's sobering.

That's kind of a sobering thought.

I mean, there are stakes in this thing, and doing it the wrong way could have harmful effects.

And I think anybody either, right?

No.

I think that when we try to push it, what we have forgotten is that conversion is a miraculous work of God, that it's not something that I do, it's not something that I can make happen.

It's really not even a decision that my friend makes, and I recognize it's in connection with the decision he makes.

But the actual conversion of a soul is a miraculous work of God.

And when we're trying to make it happen, we're actually showing that we've forgotten that.

That.

And there's something really relieving about all of this, for me, at least, Jeff.

I mean, there's something relieving about, you know, I don't have to feel like I have to close the deal here.

I'm not a salesman for God.

I.

I'm just available.

I.

I'm ready.

So I took the training and, and I'm.

And I've made myself aware of the resources and, and.

And I'm vigilant, but I'm also just waiting on God and, And looking to him and so relieving about all that.

It's beautiful.

You know, the older I get in the Christian life, the more I realize everything is balance, everything.

The balancing side of that is that Paul, as an ambassador, says that I am pleading in Christ's stead, asking people, please come back to God.

And so there's the aspect of patience, and then there's the aspect.

Sorry, Pastor Jeff, hold on.

So that you want to pick up with the aspect of patience.

Yeah.

So there's the aspect of patience, and then there's the aspect of literally pleading with people and recognizing they need Jesus, they need a rescuer.

Absolutely.

Yeah.

So it doesn't tame our passion about the topic, but it does help us time things with God.

I think so, yeah.

And I think sometimes it does tame our zeal a little bit if we're a little overzealous.

Right, Right.

Yeah.

We have to make sure we're not guided by emotions in any regard.

In the Christian life, we shouldn't let emotions control us, but certainly we should be emotional about this, right?

Yeah, absolutely.

Don't control by passion, but be passionate.

Exactly.

Exactly.

Well, is there anything else there that we haven't covered yet?

I'm Dawn.

That was really fun.

I enjoyed talking about that with you, George.

Oh, man.

That.

That little treasure there in Mark, chapter four, that little parable.

Boy, sometimes in those little ones is where you get this big, big treasure.

And it's.

It's kind of.

It's neat.

That was encouraging to me.

Well, that brings this episode to a close, and we thank you guys for listening.

Thank you for subscribing, sharing this with people.

You know that that is our growth plan and really appreciate the support out there for this.

And that does mean that we need your prayers to pray to the Lord of the harvest that he would send forth laborers and that he would help us at this time reach everybody with the gospel that we can, everybody in our influence.

Thank you, guys.

We love you, and we'll see you next week.