1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:05,780 Kevin Mako: Hello, product innovators. Today we learn from a university professor and bestselling author on how the behavioral science 2 00:00:05,780 --> 00:00:08,860 Kevin Mako: of subtraction is so important in physical product design. 3 00:00:12,350 --> 00:00:21,310 Narrator: You're listening to the Product Startup Podcast, the show that helps bring your product idea to life by chatting with successful inventors, 4 00:00:21,710 --> 00:00:29,990 Narrator: product developers, manufacturers, and hardware industry professionals. Our goal here is to get to the bottom of what makes a product successful, from initial 5 00:00:29,990 --> 00:00:39,030 Narrator: idea to getting your product on store shelves. taking you step by step to build a functional product and scale your product business. 6 00:00:39,290 --> 00:00:44,810 Narrator: Hosted by Kevin Mako, one of North America's leading experts on hardware development for small 7 00:00:44,810 --> 00:00:45,850 Kevin Mako: product businesses. 8 00:00:46,570 --> 00:00:55,670 Kevin Mako: Now, onto the show. Welcome back, everyone. Today I'm very excited to introduce Leidy Klotz to the show. Leidy has his PhD in behavioral science and is a professor at the 9 00:00:55,670 --> 00:01:02,930 Kevin Mako: University of Virginia. He is the author of the New York Times bestselling design book called Subtract. His research has been featured in 10 00:01:03,010 --> 00:01:07,430 Kevin Mako: many publications, including the front cover of Nature magazine. Today, Leidy is going to share 11 00:01:07,430 --> 00:01:11,190 Kevin Mako: some valuable knowledge on how inventors, startups, and small manufacturers can both understand 12 00:01:11,190 --> 00:01:15,810 Kevin Mako: what it means to think about subtraction in your product development process, but also to learn 13 00:01:15,810 --> 00:01:21,870 Kevin Mako: what the best practices are for ensuring world-class subtraction thinking for your next product. Now on the episode. 14 00:01:22,670 --> 00:01:23,830 Kevin Mako: Hi, Leidy, welcome to the show. 15 00:01:24,010 --> 00:01:29,710 Kevin Mako: Hi, Kevin. It's great to be here. Great to have a fellow lecturer on the show. I understand that you teach in the engineering 16 00:01:29,710 --> 00:01:34,030 Kevin Mako: program behavioral science with studying in the school of design. 17 00:01:34,210 --> 00:01:41,410 Leidy Klotz: So I'm an engineering and architecture professor. I study the science of design and most of my intellectual contributions are in behavioral 18 00:01:41,410 --> 00:01:44,530 Leidy Klotz: science. Before we scare your listeners away, we promise not to lecture. 19 00:01:45,850 --> 00:01:52,850 Kevin Mako: That's great. Well, look, it's great to have the academic approach in here. And you've also got a lot of real world experience in this subject. You've authored the book. 20 00:01:53,210 --> 00:01:59,630 Leidy Klotz: Give us a bit of a history to how you got here. Maybe I'll go back to college because that's a, you know, a relatable spot for people. But I majored 21 00:01:59,710 --> 00:02:05,950 Leidy Klotz: in civil engineering in college. I was always interested in the built environment, so how physical things come together. Plus I didn't. 22 00:02:06,070 --> 00:02:14,570 Leidy Klotz: I realized I was going to have to take organic chemistry and more electrical engineering classes. If I went that other route, that wasn't appealing. So I'd always been 23 00:02:14,570 --> 00:02:21,690 Leidy Klotz: interested in the physical world and how we build things in that world. After college, I did construction management for a while. 24 00:02:22,090 --> 00:02:30,810 Leidy Klotz: So building school construction projects and got to see how those came together. I spent a ton of time when I was doing that, mainly managing the design process. 25 00:02:31,090 --> 00:02:37,530 Leidy Klotz: So I think that's where I really got interested. It helped reinforce my interest in all these things that happen before the physical 26 00:02:37,530 --> 00:02:44,830 Leidy Klotz: thing goes into the world that are incredibly influential in what that physical thing looks like and how it serves the people who are using it. 27 00:02:44,990 --> 00:02:52,490 Leidy Klotz: And so schools, for example, you think, oh, the way the school gets built is the contractor shows up and puts a crane and then starts erecting steel into the sky. 28 00:02:52,630 --> 00:03:00,990 Leidy Klotz: And it was like, no, way before that, there are people who are, figuring out if his school should even go in this place and what pink colors the superintendent 29 00:03:00,990 --> 00:03:09,010 Leidy Klotz: likes. And so I just found that whole messy design process fascinating in design being all these 30 00:03:09,010 --> 00:03:18,930 Leidy Klotz: people who are contributing to taking something from how it is to how they want it to be. And I liked that job, but I also thought that I would like doing teaching and research. 31 00:03:19,130 --> 00:03:23,270 Leidy Klotz: I really enjoy working with young people. And I really enjoy the more kind of theoretical, 32 00:03:24,090 --> 00:03:32,110 Leidy Klotz: philosophical questions. And so as I was doing that, I figured out how I'd go back for my PhD, study design with my PhD. 33 00:03:32,490 --> 00:03:40,510 Leidy Klotz: I studied architectural engineering, basically all the engineering that goes into a building. And then after I got my PhD and had my faculty position, you've got a lot of 34 00:03:40,510 --> 00:03:46,490 Leidy Klotz: flexibility. And I just thinking about, okay, where's the place that I can have the biggest impact on the things that I care about? 35 00:03:46,490 --> 00:03:53,250 Leidy Klotz: I care a lot about sustainability in the built environment and sustainability in the things that we design. So how do we design things that don't 36 00:03:53,270 --> 00:03:58,910 Leidy Klotz: ruin the planet and that make life better for, you know, people. So when I got my first 37 00:03:58,910 --> 00:04:04,790 Leidy Klotz: faculty position, that's when I really said, okay, like there's a huge opportunity here with kind 38 00:04:04,790 --> 00:04:13,370 Leidy Klotz: of the intersection of behavioral science, all these new advances that people are coming up with in terms of how we think and decide and how we use decision-making shortcuts 39 00:04:13,370 --> 00:04:20,990 Leidy Klotz: and how can we pull the best knowledge from behavioral science into design because this is two fields that don't 40 00:04:20,990 --> 00:04:25,730 Leidy Klotz: often talk to each other, but design would have a lot to learn from behavioral science and vice versa. 41 00:04:25,850 --> 00:04:31,090 Leidy Klotz: I mean, behavioral science, a lot of the questions or ideas that they study could be design things. 42 00:04:31,210 --> 00:04:40,150 Kevin Mako: And that's where we'll get into subtract. That's amazing backstory. One of these things I find that in the world of design and engineering, something that's often 43 00:04:40,150 --> 00:04:48,310 Kevin Mako: forgot is the human factor. Right. The people coming up with the products are humans. The people designing the product are humans and the people who are buying it are humans. 44 00:04:48,310 --> 00:04:52,650 Kevin Mako: And this is where the element of behavioral science comes into play at all levels, right, 45 00:04:52,750 --> 00:04:57,830 Kevin Mako: from the initial onset, all the way through to design engineering and then selling the product at the end of the day. 46 00:04:58,090 --> 00:05:02,390 Kevin Mako: So figuring out that human factor actually weighs into a lot of the decision making 47 00:05:02,390 --> 00:05:09,810 Kevin Mako: along the way and is a really important consideration, which is why I was very excited to bring you on this podcast. And you've got a really popular book in the design industry. 48 00:05:10,090 --> 00:05:16,850 Kevin Mako: It's called Subtract. It's great book. It talks about this whole concept of thinking of subtraction as opposed to addition. 49 00:05:16,850 --> 00:05:25,490 Kevin Mako: So can you talk to us about what is the overall concept behind this idea of subtraction when you're developing a product and when you're trying to get something 50 00:05:25,490 --> 00:05:34,730 Kevin Mako: to market and also how that applies both overall and in modern standards of what's the science actually telling us today based on what you're researching on the back end? 51 00:05:34,770 --> 00:05:43,090 Leidy Klotz: I was playing Legos with my son when he was about he was three at the time and we're building this bridge and the problem we had was the bridge wasn't level. 52 00:05:43,190 --> 00:05:46,830 Leidy Klotz: And so I turned around behind me to add a block to the shorter column to make the level. 53 00:05:46,850 --> 00:05:54,590 Leidy Klotz: bridge. And by the time I had turned back around, my son had removed a block from the longer column. And so that right there is subtracting, right? 54 00:05:54,890 --> 00:06:00,770 Leidy Klotz: You've got this situation that you're trying to make better. In this case, we're trying to take a crooked bridge and turn it into a level 55 00:06:00,770 --> 00:06:10,290 Leidy Klotz: bridge. And one of the ways to do that is by adding something to the situation. I thought to add a block. And the other way is to take something away. 56 00:06:10,370 --> 00:06:16,670 Leidy Klotz: And that's what my son stumbled upon in that moment. So that's the definition of subtracting. And I think it's really important to 57 00:06:16,850 --> 00:06:26,690 Leidy Klotz: have the definition there to reinforce that definition because I think one of the reasons we don't subtract is we often conflate it with less. And subtracting is an action, right? 58 00:06:27,130 --> 00:06:35,750 Leidy Klotz: This is the act of taking something away. Less is the end state. Less is something has been taken away or nothing has been added in the first place. 59 00:06:35,990 --> 00:06:43,910 Leidy Klotz: So they're related concepts, but subtract is the action and the design activity that has to happen. We spent two years doing this research and I did 60 00:06:43,910 --> 00:06:48,750 Leidy Klotz: it with some behavioral science colleagues, Gabe Adams, Ben Combers, and Andy Hales, 61 00:06:49,410 --> 00:06:53,710 Leidy Klotz: who are here at the University of Virginia. And Andy's now at University of Mississippi. The research 62 00:06:53,710 --> 00:06:57,350 Leidy Klotz: was featured on the cover of nature, which for an academic, that's like the pinnacle of 63 00:06:58,390 --> 00:07:07,290 Leidy Klotz: what you can do with your research. And never happened to me before. It'll never happen again. And what we found was that people basically, when 64 00:07:07,290 --> 00:07:15,950 Leidy Klotz: you're thinking about design or trying to change something from how it is to how you want it to be, you think a lot of like I did in that moment with the bridge. 65 00:07:16,330 --> 00:07:19,510 Leidy Klotz: You say, okay, what can I add? 66 00:07:20,270 --> 00:07:28,330 Leidy Klotz: And you move on, add something. And if my son hadn't been there, I would have just added, never thought twice about subtracting and just moved on and been happy with it. 67 00:07:28,450 --> 00:07:36,250 Leidy Klotz: So our first thought, the first thing that comes to mind when we think about how we can make something better is what can we add to it. It's not that we can't subtract. 68 00:07:36,570 --> 00:07:45,370 Leidy Klotz: It's just that our first thought is what we can add. And that's the new science. We did that with there were 18 different studies, all sorts of things with Legos with writing. 69 00:07:45,710 --> 00:07:54,310 Leidy Klotz: We did a miniature golf hole trying to make a miniature golf hole harder, easier. People would add stuff either way. And they would add even when it was wrong. So, 70 00:07:54,430 --> 00:08:03,370 Leidy Klotz: for example, we made a Lego structure where people had to protect a stormtrooper from a masonry block. And one way to do it was to add eight blocks to the structure. 71 00:08:03,550 --> 00:08:10,010 Leidy Klotz: The other way was to subtract one block. And people added eight blocks because of the way we set it up. And again, the reason is not because people are stupid. 72 00:08:10,090 --> 00:08:17,850 Leidy Klotz: It's just because our first thought is, what can we add? We solved the problem by adding or we think we've solved the problem by adding and we move on without considering 73 00:08:17,850 --> 00:08:23,170 Leidy Klotz: the other option. This is the part that I like about talking to designers. Some people are like, well, why is that a problem? 74 00:08:23,350 --> 00:08:32,910 Leidy Klotz: And designers immediately understand that, well, you're missing out on half your options if you're overlooking this basic way of making change. So that's some of the new 75 00:08:32,910 --> 00:08:38,610 Leidy Klotz: science. And then the book delves into some of the other reasons why we might have evolved this decision-making shortcut. 76 00:08:38,670 --> 00:08:48,130 Leidy Klotz: I mean, for a long time, adding has been beneficial just in terms of passing down our genes, right? If you acquire food, you're more likely to make it through lean time. 77 00:08:48,270 --> 00:08:55,850 Leidy Klotz: Throughout the history of civilization, for example, you know, think about the first product designers. The problem was that there wasn't any stuff at all. 78 00:08:56,030 --> 00:09:02,770 Leidy Klotz: So adding was the better way to make change for a long time. And now some of these opportunities we have to subtract are relatively new. 79 00:09:02,970 --> 00:09:07,370 Leidy Klotz: And so it makes sense that our minds might be wired to think of adding first. 80 00:09:07,370 --> 00:09:13,770 Kevin Mako: Try to summarize the first half of the book in five minutes. They have to get the book to see the full package, right? 81 00:09:14,070 --> 00:09:22,830 Kevin Mako: One of the things that first comes to mind, I think, of developing over a thousand products over my career to Mako Design is two terms that we use quite consistently. 82 00:09:23,370 --> 00:09:24,810 Kevin Mako: One is feature creep. 83 00:09:25,660 --> 00:09:33,140 Kevin Mako: And that's a big one in product development. Generally, by inventors and ideators, they want to add all kinds of features and it creates 84 00:09:33,140 --> 00:09:40,540 Kevin Mako: something that is really a negative experience to actually develop. and even for the end users at the end. So feature creep is a big one. 85 00:09:40,880 --> 00:09:46,600 Kevin Mako: The other one is something that we took pretty aggressively at the firm too. It's we call it smart minimum viable product. 86 00:09:47,060 --> 00:09:54,900 Kevin Mako: How do we make sure the product is launched with the minimum amount of features that are solving the pain point that they've discovered, 87 00:09:55,140 --> 00:10:02,080 Kevin Mako: but doing that in a really high quality manner, which is very different from tech, which is get something out there and then fix it later. 88 00:10:02,520 --> 00:10:10,760 Kevin Mako: Well, in hardware, we kind of take the opposite approach, but either way, it comes back to the same philosophy. It's very difficult for designers and innovators and inventors 89 00:10:10,760 --> 00:10:18,520 Kevin Mako: and ideators to subtract as opposed to that human desire, as you've mentioned, as you found in all these experiments that you've run with 90 00:10:18,520 --> 00:10:27,940 Kevin Mako: real people in an academic setting, you found that that is true human nature, is that you've got this natural urge or this desire to add things, even if it's wrong, 91 00:10:28,080 --> 00:10:34,700 Leidy Klotz: as you said. And that's very, very powerful, something that everybody consider in design. And one of the things you'll recognize this immediately, right? 92 00:10:34,840 --> 00:10:37,660 Leidy Klotz: And like one of the reasons we add and it's hard to take away is because 93 00:10:38,560 --> 00:10:46,100 Leidy Klotz: we want to display competence. And I was surprised when I did the research for the book, how biological that is. I knew that we wanted to display competence. 94 00:10:46,240 --> 00:10:47,380 Leidy Klotz: I didn't know add like this 95 00:10:48,100 --> 00:10:53,420 Leidy Klotz: evolutionary origin to it. So if you think about Bowerbirds, those are the birds that build the ceremonial nests. 96 00:10:53,980 --> 00:10:57,440 Leidy Klotz: And the male Bower birds build these nests and the female Bower birds go and look at 97 00:10:57,440 --> 00:11:04,460 Leidy Klotz: the nests and then decide which male to mate with based on which nests they like best. And then the female Bowerbirds go and build a nest to shelter the young. 98 00:11:04,960 --> 00:11:13,620 Leidy Klotz: So the whole purpose of these initial nests is just to show that the Bowerbird that built them is competent, can interact effectively with the world. 99 00:11:13,800 --> 00:11:21,980 Leidy Klotz: That ties almost directly sometimes to feature creep, right? It's like if you've added something to the product, it shows that, hey, Kevin did this. What a cool idea by 100 00:11:21,980 --> 00:11:27,240 Leidy Klotz: Kevin, whether or not it actually serves the customer is another thing. But, you know, I struggle with this in writing. 101 00:11:27,300 --> 00:11:35,060 Leidy Klotz: You know, I write 200,000 words and then it ends up as a 70,000 word book. And it's harder to remove the words than it is to add them emotionally. 102 00:11:35,560 --> 00:11:43,340 Leidy Klotz: But if you recognize that, you know, hey, I've got this kind of investment of competence in the thing that I've added that can help you overcome that and take away. 103 00:11:43,520 --> 00:11:49,840 Leidy Klotz: Also, it's not that you can't show competence through subtracting, right? But I would argue that you might have to do more subtracting. 104 00:11:49,960 --> 00:11:55,080 Leidy Klotz: So if you think about some of the famous design, you know, the iPhone is a really cliche one. I don't even use it in the book. 105 00:11:55,160 --> 00:12:02,240 Leidy Klotz: The thing that was noticeable about the iPhone was the lack of features, right? And so that displayed competence through subtracting. 106 00:12:02,320 --> 00:12:06,480 Leidy Klotz: And I think sometimes by subtract, if you subtract just a little bit, nobody notices. 107 00:12:06,780 --> 00:12:11,700 Kevin Mako: But if you subtract a lot, people do take notice and you can display competence in that way. 108 00:12:11,800 --> 00:12:19,260 Kevin Mako: It's interesting that you mentioned the word competence because subtraction from anyone who's in the design world is difficult. 109 00:12:19,650 --> 00:12:26,900 Kevin Mako: I love your example about condensing a 200,000 word book down to 70,000 and how much increased difficulty that is. 110 00:12:26,900 --> 00:12:33,280 Kevin Mako: I think of the design slogan we had of our firm, brilliantly simple design, because true 111 00:12:33,280 --> 00:12:42,620 Kevin Mako: intelligence in design is being able to solve the pain point in the most simple way. It should be so good that at the end of design, when somebody looks at it, they go, oh, yeah, 112 00:12:42,740 --> 00:12:47,020 Kevin Mako: of course, that's obvious why it was done that way. And that's how it works. And that's how it should work. 113 00:12:47,640 --> 00:12:56,360 Kevin Mako: And that is really the most difficult part of getting it to that point in time. And I think that's where people who aren't in the design world as much, they might oversee that 114 00:12:56,360 --> 00:13:04,800 Kevin Mako: and not understand, like to get to that simple output that you see on so many products out there took a considerable amount of work and thinking to figure out how 115 00:13:04,800 --> 00:13:14,440 Leidy Klotz: to subtract and to subtract the right things in the right way in order to eventually get to that perfectly simple solution to that pain point. Yeah, that's, I mean, that's so good. 116 00:13:14,580 --> 00:13:23,920 Leidy Klotz: And that's the other thing that this kind of easy misconception to have is that simple is easy, right? And in fact, what we're saying is that simple is harder. 117 00:13:23,920 --> 00:13:33,560 Leidy Klotz: So number one, it's, it's more cognitive effort. It's not that you can't think of subtraction. It's just you have to go past your initial default. But then it's more steps, right? 118 00:13:33,860 --> 00:13:40,520 Leidy Klotz: I mean, so if you're doing prototyping, for example, with a product and you, you know, you do these iterations and you've got a product that basically 119 00:13:40,520 --> 00:13:49,960 Leidy Klotz: works. And then it's more steps to say, oh, would this also work without this piece or without this other piece? And so, yeah, you're exactly right. 120 00:13:50,080 --> 00:13:56,140 Leidy Klotz: More effort goes into it and there's less to show for it to the untrained eye. One challenge I pose in the book is like, 121 00:13:56,280 --> 00:14:02,160 Leidy Klotz: do you get people to recognize that, the users and clients, right? I mean, if you think about this 122 00:14:02,160 --> 00:14:06,040 Leidy Klotz: with the built environment, with buildings, for example, if you're an architect and you say, 123 00:14:06,120 --> 00:14:10,520 Leidy Klotz: oh, actually what you need is a much simpler building and the building ends up costing less 124 00:14:10,520 --> 00:14:18,260 Kevin Mako: to build and your fee is tied to the cost of the thing, you've actually just given yourself less money for doing more work. 125 00:14:18,400 --> 00:14:27,480 Leidy Klotz: It's something as designers we can kind of battle at a systemic level too. What are some of the examples that you've seen that really highlight this idea in physical 126 00:14:27,480 --> 00:14:37,200 Leidy Klotz: products of subtraction as opposed to addition? My favorite example is, will always be, I think, the strider bikes. So these are the little bikes for basically two-year-olds, maybe 127 00:14:37,200 --> 00:14:45,820 Leidy Klotz: even younger. My daughter wrote it when she was younger than two. And it's a small bike. It looks just like a regular bike, except it's got no pedals and drivetrain. 128 00:14:46,100 --> 00:14:55,260 Leidy Klotz: And how they work is the little kid pedals at like a Flintstone vehicle with their legs. And then the kids can balance, which is the surprising thing. I remember 129 00:14:55,260 --> 00:15:01,920 Leidy Klotz: my son was riding it around his great aunt's convent. She's a nun. And she's like, what? It was more 130 00:15:01,920 --> 00:15:11,080 Leidy Klotz: conceivable to her that there was like some magic like levitating thing in the bike that some inventor had come up with than just that this little kid, no, he can actually balance. 131 00:15:11,240 --> 00:15:18,100 Leidy Klotz: And so it's an amazing invention. It's added like two years onto kids bike riding lives. And I like it for a lot of 132 00:15:18,100 --> 00:15:28,000 Leidy Klotz: reasons. One is because it shows that we overlook subtraction. I mean, think about all of the bikes that were sold over the last 100 years and, you know, all these innovations, 133 00:15:28,320 --> 00:15:35,020 Leidy Klotz: fatter tubes, fatter tires, more gears, training wheels. And nobody thought, hey, what if we take these tires away? Would this be a 134 00:15:35,020 --> 00:15:41,420 Leidy Klotz: better bike for a certain segment of our population? And so it was overlooked for a long time when it finally was realized. 135 00:15:41,680 --> 00:15:50,800 Leidy Klotz: It changed that market and made things better for a bunch of little kids. And And the other thing I like about it is you mentioned the humans before, right? And I think one of the 136 00:15:50,800 --> 00:15:57,820 Leidy Klotz: things that really makes that design work. And the inventor is Ryan McFarland. And Strider Bikes is his 137 00:15:57,820 --> 00:16:04,380 Leidy Klotz: company. And he talks about his design process in my book. And he's a father, too. And he said that 138 00:16:04,380 --> 00:16:09,120 Leidy Klotz: the designer in him was thinking about the bike, but the father in him was thinking about the kid. 139 00:16:09,420 --> 00:16:16,900 Leidy Klotz: And that's when he realized that, oh, like the kid can provide the balance, right? So we don't need the training wheels for balance. The kid can do that. 140 00:16:17,140 --> 00:16:24,340 Leidy Klotz: We just need to make them able to propel the bike, which they can by pushing it with their legs. And so it was by considering not just 141 00:16:24,340 --> 00:16:30,800 Leidy Klotz: the product, but the person using the product, that this subtraction became a viable option. And I think 142 00:16:30,800 --> 00:16:37,140 Leidy Klotz: that's something that would hold true in a lot of different cases. I mean, even I'll tie it into writing and then shut up. 143 00:16:37,340 --> 00:16:46,360 Leidy Klotz: But in writing, if you leave things out, what you're hoping will happen is that the reader will fill those things in for themselves, right? You know, so Hemingway had this 144 00:16:46,360 --> 00:16:50,700 Leidy Klotz: theory of a mission and try to put just the bare bones of the story in 145 00:16:50,700 --> 00:16:58,180 Kevin Mako: there so that, and then rely on the reader's imagination. And so in that case, that's the human that he's designing for. So I think 146 00:16:58,180 --> 00:17:03,260 Kevin Mako: that's a really powerful principle that allows for subtraction. That's great. The strider bike 147 00:17:03,260 --> 00:17:12,620 Kevin Mako: example is so powerful too, because it was 100 years of bike manufacturing. Everybody trying to come up with innovations and companies coming out of the woodworks and coming out 148 00:17:12,620 --> 00:17:19,300 Kevin Mako: with all new things, everybody trying to capture various pieces of the market. And it was missed for that amount of time. 149 00:17:19,980 --> 00:17:28,540 Kevin Mako: And eventually somebody came around and made a massive business out of that super simplification of something that's been around that could have been invented a hundred years ago. 150 00:17:28,760 --> 00:17:36,320 Kevin Mako: And it's very recent. And I think that's something that's very profound. As a quick side note, you hear it in the industry occasionally where an inventor will come up and 151 00:17:36,320 --> 00:17:43,100 Kevin Mako: be like, you know what, everything's been invented, right? Is my idea really novel? Absolutely. Everything is not been invented. 152 00:17:43,340 --> 00:17:52,920 Kevin Mako: There will always be innovation for human history that will continue to occur to the end of time. So I can't imagine looking at that example and thinking about your 153 00:17:52,920 --> 00:17:59,940 Kevin Mako: own invention ideas and looking at it and thinking anything other than there's something new or novel or unique or a different way of spinning it. 154 00:18:00,180 --> 00:18:02,620 Kevin Mako: And a simplification can be one of those ways, 155 00:18:02,620 --> 00:18:10,960 Leidy Klotz: not just in a addition, which is what probably most of the people, I would even say on our show, talk about is things that they're adding or changing or combining. 156 00:18:11,600 --> 00:18:17,640 Leidy Klotz: But that example right there is a way that somebody took something, subtracted it, and made a fortune off it as a business. Yeah. 157 00:18:18,220 --> 00:18:24,000 Leidy Klotz: And before people write in your comments that the first bikes didn't have any pedals, that is true. 158 00:18:24,020 --> 00:18:32,360 Leidy Klotz: But that's also the example of like this kind of the first bikes also weren't able to be ridden by two-year-olds. And so it took this evolution. 159 00:18:32,620 --> 00:18:39,620 Leidy Klotz: of, okay, adding stuff, adding stuff, adding stuff, and then realizing, oh, to make it even better, we can take things away. 160 00:18:40,680 --> 00:18:49,460 Leidy Klotz: And one of the other, like, ancillary studies that we did was just to look at patents, so you can comb all the patent data that Google has. 161 00:18:49,560 --> 00:18:55,980 Leidy Klotz: So I think that's, like, back to 1975 or something. And we looked for additive and subtractive synonyms, basically, in there. 162 00:18:56,200 --> 00:19:03,600 Leidy Klotz: And we, the eight most common additive words, the eight most common subtractive words. And additive words are way overrepresented. in innovation. 163 00:19:04,020 --> 00:19:09,780 Leidy Klotz: I don't know enough about that whole process. I'm sure there are other reasons why you would put additive words in. 164 00:19:10,020 --> 00:19:13,840 Kevin Mako: It gives you a better way to claim novelty, for example. 165 00:19:14,620 --> 00:19:21,040 Kevin Mako: But the fact that these additive words were way more likely than the subtractive words as the kind of differentiating 166 00:19:21,040 --> 00:19:27,620 Kevin Mako: things with pet and suggests that there's untapped opportunity in that specific type of 167 00:19:27,620 --> 00:19:36,560 Kevin Mako: innovation. With this podcast episode, you're showing everybody a new way to look at the world. A lot of the time with these innovations, as we look back in history, 168 00:19:36,680 --> 00:19:41,020 Kevin Mako: it was quite obvious. Everybody was looking left and then somebody looked right. And that's 169 00:19:41,020 --> 00:19:48,540 Kevin Mako: exactly what we're talking about here is looking at your project, looking at your hardware innovation that's coming out or that you're redeveloping or that you're thinking about 170 00:19:48,540 --> 00:19:57,200 Kevin Mako: your next version of and thinking about how could I remove things to add simplicity, both in from a user standpoint, a marketing standpoint and a production standpoint. 171 00:19:57,400 --> 00:20:05,160 Kevin Mako: The beauty of all that is if you can figure it out through great design, which is really what it will take to get there, than what you can do is save a lot of time and money. 172 00:20:05,500 --> 00:20:13,860 Kevin Mako: And even arguably, we talk about it a lot on the show too, it's arguably easier to market something that's simple and direct, especially when you've got a huge global population. 173 00:20:14,420 --> 00:20:17,440 Kevin Mako: You can really hone down on the people. Like you mentioned, the bikes. 174 00:20:17,880 --> 00:20:22,880 Leidy Klotz: Sure, maybe in the early days there were bikes with no pedals. And it was just marketed to everybody, but that didn't really fit. 175 00:20:22,980 --> 00:20:30,780 Leidy Klotz: Now there's a niche demographic, which is two-year-olds, that could really utilize that simple strip-down bike. Now, that's a smaller demographic than all bike riders, 176 00:20:30,780 --> 00:20:37,000 Leidy Klotz: but with a huge population around the world, that makes a massive business opportunity for that inventor that came up with that idea. 177 00:20:37,140 --> 00:20:44,220 Leidy Klotz: That's interesting because I was just talking about this stuff at a conference and people were like, well, how do you sell less? And I mean, my response was basically 178 00:20:44,220 --> 00:20:50,380 Kevin Mako: people who sell stuff are good at selling anything, right? You can sell stuff that's not good for people, right? 179 00:20:50,740 --> 00:21:00,200 Kevin Mako: But I hadn't thought of that argument that actually there's an advantage in trying to sell less and that you've got, you can hone your message even more. It's a simpler thing to 180 00:21:00,200 --> 00:21:06,360 Kevin Mako: explains that's that's interesting i was on a podcast with uh john lee dumis of uh e o fire a really 181 00:21:06,360 --> 00:21:10,280 Kevin Mako: amazing podcast huge i i think it's one of the biggest if not the biggest entrepreneurship 182 00:21:10,280 --> 00:21:19,540 Kevin Mako: podcast in the world we were talking about hardware on the show and one of the big things that he advocates is focus because the more that you can focus 183 00:21:19,540 --> 00:21:27,980 Kevin Mako: and find your niche find something really specific the exponentially easier it is to sell that thing because you are very targeted to the exact and 184 00:21:27,980 --> 00:21:35,880 Kevin Mako: specific people who are looking to solve that one pain point and you're the one person who is focusing on solving that and only that pain point. 185 00:21:36,120 --> 00:21:44,880 Kevin Mako: So they're more likely to choose you, even though you're new. Your product maybe doesn't have any or many reviews. Maybe it's a pre-sale thing. Maybe they don't know of your brand. 186 00:21:45,080 --> 00:21:52,360 Kevin Mako: All of these things they may overlook if you can target their pain point specifically and narrowly and hit only that. 187 00:21:52,560 --> 00:21:57,240 Kevin Mako: And when people look at it and say, yeah, well, it's a small niche demographic. Think about the global population. 188 00:21:57,320 --> 00:22:04,920 Kevin Mako: I always challenge people when they say that, when they're looking at the scale, of their business to look at it. And I challenge them to say, do you truly believe that in the 189 00:22:04,920 --> 00:22:09,980 Kevin Mako: next two to five years, you can saturate just that small market you're looking to achieve 190 00:22:09,980 --> 00:22:17,120 Leidy Klotz: worldwide? If you really think you will, then yes, okay, maybe broaden your horizon. If not, then focus on that. 191 00:22:17,300 --> 00:22:25,120 Leidy Klotz: And once you start to win in that market, now you can look to expand the product to other markets after you've not only conquered that, earned a lot of money from that, 192 00:22:25,460 --> 00:22:30,580 Leidy Klotz: but also have got a whole bunch of feedback from people on that specific pain point that you were looking to originally solve. 193 00:22:31,120 --> 00:22:40,500 Leidy Klotz: That's a really, I mean, people, they talk about that in the book industry, too. It's, you know, there's enough readers, right? Get the thing that you're doing right 194 00:22:40,500 --> 00:22:46,760 Leidy Klotz: and get it out there. The other example I really like, and I think your listeners would too, is the building block. 195 00:22:46,980 --> 00:22:56,520 Leidy Klotz: And so for almost all of history building blocks, we're solid. And there's this woman named Anna Anna Kaichline, who was one of the first licensed 196 00:22:56,520 --> 00:23:04,480 Leidy Klotz: architects in, I think the first licensed architect in pencil also had like an engineering slash product designy type background she invented some 197 00:23:04,480 --> 00:23:11,840 Leidy Klotz: toys i know you had a toy designer on as you're one of your previous yes and so she was a very much 198 00:23:11,840 --> 00:23:21,320 Leidy Klotz: a designer and she she studied the way that people were the work the workmen who were putting the buildings together with the solid blocks and she realized that if she kind of 199 00:23:21,320 --> 00:23:30,760 Leidy Klotz: created what she called the k block and so it's like this hollowed out block that could also be kind of fractured at the corners to make it more, more adaptable for building. 200 00:23:31,000 --> 00:23:38,600 Leidy Klotz: So she's, again, the reason I'm adding that detail is because she's, she came to this by thinking about the users. In this case, it wasn't even the users of the building. 201 00:23:38,780 --> 00:23:47,960 Leidy Klotz: It was the people who had to put the, put the thing together. And so her block became the precursor to those ubiquitous, you know, CMU blocks that you see. They 202 00:23:47,960 --> 00:23:55,320 Leidy Klotz: look like a squared off figure eight. And there are these hollow building blocks that everybody builds with now. They're lighter. They're less expensive. 203 00:23:55,320 --> 00:23:58,320 Leidy Klotz: They use less energy to, to, to fire, you know. 204 00:23:59,120 --> 00:24:04,980 Leidy Klotz: And they also, they also perform better in the building. The, you know, the block 205 00:24:04,980 --> 00:24:10,620 Leidy Klotz: plus the air void is actually better thermal performance than a solid block. 206 00:24:11,420 --> 00:24:17,580 Leidy Klotz: And so again, you know, this, this notion that, hey, there's nothing new to invent for the history, and for all of 207 00:24:17,580 --> 00:24:26,300 Kevin Mako: human history, we've got solid building blocks. And Kikeline, I mean, I think she was like the 20s. She served as a volunteer spy in World War II or World War I. 208 00:24:26,360 --> 00:24:35,860 Kevin Mako: So she was a remarkable person. So yeah, it was around the 20s that she came up with the hollow block and it's just, you know, obviously a better product for building. 209 00:24:36,080 --> 00:24:38,060 Kevin Mako: So that's another of my favorite kind of 210 00:24:38,860 --> 00:24:44,860 Kevin Mako: hardware subtractions. Really good example. And of course, to get there, it required great design to figure out how exactly that would work. 211 00:24:45,020 --> 00:24:51,900 Kevin Mako: And one of the things you highlight is she looked at not just the end user being the building or the people in the building and improved thermal 212 00:24:51,900 --> 00:24:57,560 Kevin Mako: properties, but also the person that was putting that in place and found out if I could make their 213 00:24:57,560 --> 00:25:01,900 Kevin Mako: job easier, save them money, give them a cheaper product that performs better, they're going 214 00:25:01,900 --> 00:25:06,000 Leidy Klotz: to change the game. And that's exactly what happens through subtraction. So if we're thinking about 215 00:25:06,000 --> 00:25:14,440 Leidy Klotz: our own products and for all the listeners out there, based on all the research you've done over the years on this subject, how do you subtract better? 216 00:25:14,780 --> 00:25:23,260 Leidy Klotz: How do you think about subtraction and be really a leader at the forefront of kind of this theory of subtraction so that they can apply this 217 00:25:23,260 --> 00:25:30,080 Leidy Klotz: to their designs and their thinking moving forward? And one thing that worked in our experiments, and I think works in the real world, our reminders. 218 00:25:30,340 --> 00:25:37,380 Leidy Klotz: And so people are kind of part of the way there on the reminder, listening to this podcast, they're putting subtraction top of mind. And then 219 00:25:37,380 --> 00:25:43,740 Leidy Klotz: hopefully they'll, you know, the next time they have a design decision to make, they're less likely to overlook it. 220 00:25:44,240 --> 00:25:50,160 Leidy Klotz: I'll say that these reminders in our experiments didn't prove very like transferable. 221 00:25:50,500 --> 00:25:55,500 Leidy Klotz: So just because you are reminded to subtract in one context doesn't mean you won't overlook it in another. 222 00:25:55,500 --> 00:26:00,480 Leidy Klotz: So I would say that a thing you could do to make those reminders more likely to work for you 223 00:26:00,480 --> 00:26:09,420 Leidy Klotz: is to think about your own design process and see how you could build those into the process rather than use them as like a one-off. You're always remembering it. 224 00:26:09,660 --> 00:26:18,480 Leidy Klotz: So this isn't a design example. But when I do my to-do list, I also force myself to write down stop doings, right? 225 00:26:18,640 --> 00:26:28,560 Leidy Klotz: So whatever you're, and that forces me not to overlook subtraction in my social life. but so if you can build those reminders into your design process 226 00:26:28,560 --> 00:26:37,540 Leidy Klotz: that can be really um really helpful in a good way to to find more of these options that we might otherwise miss um the book also you know 227 00:26:37,540 --> 00:26:43,140 Leidy Klotz: if you the book is seven hours of listening if you listen to it on uh on audiobooks and you know 228 00:26:43,140 --> 00:26:49,140 Leidy Klotz: that would be a little more of a kind of rearranging of your mental uh mental furniture to 229 00:26:49,140 --> 00:26:56,900 Leidy Klotz: help you think about subtraction more but i think the the reminders is a good a good good first step. Also, rules. 230 00:26:57,100 --> 00:27:05,180 Leidy Klotz: I mean, so reminders are very, okay, this leaves it up to you, but I think that I talk about the game, Jenga in the book 231 00:27:05,180 --> 00:27:13,280 Leidy Klotz: and compare it to Legos. And so Legos, basically what we do with Legos is build, right? And Jenga is essentially just building blocks, right? 232 00:27:13,720 --> 00:27:22,980 Leidy Klotz: But the rule of Jenga is that the first thing you have to do is subtract. The first thing you have to do is take away. And that very simple rule makes it so that you don't 233 00:27:22,980 --> 00:27:29,240 Leidy Klotz: overlook subtraction. It also creates very different behavior in this overall building block game. It gets taller and taller, 234 00:27:29,400 --> 00:27:38,260 Leidy Klotz: but it doesn't take up your whole living room as our Legos do. So rules is another one to the extent that you can put rules in place for yourself or for your teams. 235 00:27:38,800 --> 00:27:42,460 Leidy Klotz: That would be a good way to stop overlooking it. 236 00:27:43,660 --> 00:27:50,280 Leidy Klotz: And then I'll say one last thing is that it's what first you have to think of it, right? And then you have to choose it. 237 00:27:50,520 --> 00:27:58,800 Leidy Klotz: And there are barriers to choosing less as Right. You might think, oh, it would be good if I took this feature off, but then nobody's going to see 238 00:27:58,800 --> 00:28:02,600 Leidy Klotz: like the client's not going to want to pay me for it because it's going to look too simple. 239 00:28:03,540 --> 00:28:08,440 Leidy Klotz: And so I think in those cases, it's, you know, helping people see the, helping 240 00:28:08,440 --> 00:28:18,180 Kevin Mako: people see the extra effort that goes into taking away, helping people overcome this tendency to think that more is better. Also kind of reframing subtractions, right? 241 00:28:18,340 --> 00:28:28,200 Kevin Mako: So highlighting what's cool about what's not there, right? So highlighting the simplicity, highlighting the streamlines. nature, highlighting the things that have been cut out. 242 00:28:28,400 --> 00:28:37,440 Kevin Mako: So things that are kind of maybe viewed in a more positive way than subtracting is a good way to help convince people that choosing subtraction 243 00:28:37,440 --> 00:28:42,320 Kevin Mako: was a good option. Those are a number of great tips. Lots of notes there. I was taking a bunch down 244 00:28:42,320 --> 00:28:47,820 Kevin Mako: as well because it's so useful to look at all these different elements to consider the subtraction 245 00:28:47,820 --> 00:28:55,440 Leidy Klotz: side in addition to the addition to the addition side. I think it was Warren Buffett that said something along the lines of you write your to-do list, your top 25 things 246 00:28:55,440 --> 00:29:00,280 Leidy Klotz: you have to do and then you strike it across them all 20. That's the similar concept, right? 247 00:29:00,420 --> 00:29:02,940 Kevin Mako: And that can apply to anyone in their design thinking. 248 00:29:03,360 --> 00:29:12,100 Leidy Klotz: Of course, to really get to understand these topics in depth, your book is the place to go for this. You literally wrote the book on subtraction and that is the title. So where can 249 00:29:12,100 --> 00:29:21,140 Leidy Klotz: people go to buy the book and to learn more? Anywhere books are sold, there's a audio book. I mean, if you like Amazon, it's there. If you like the independent books, 250 00:29:21,200 --> 00:29:29,380 Leidy Klotz: stores it's there too. There's an audio book, a Kindle version. So wherever books are sold, and the publisher did a good job. Getting it out to libraries too. 251 00:29:29,580 --> 00:29:34,860 Leidy Klotz: Much appreciated for your words of wisdom on the show today. Thanks again. Thanks, Kevin. This is great. So fun to talk to end 252 00:29:34,860 --> 00:29:40,380 Narrator: your audience. Likewise. Talk soon. Thanks for tuning in to this episode of the Product Startup Podcast, 253 00:29:40,820 --> 00:29:47,360 Narrator: the show that teaches you what it really takes to bring your product to market and turn it into a big success. 254 00:29:47,620 --> 00:29:56,400 Narrator: This podcast series is brought to you by Mako Design. and invent, the original and leading firm in North America to provide global caliber 255 00:29:56,400 --> 00:30:03,100 Narrator: in-to-end physical consumer product development to startups, inventors, and small product business clients. 256 00:30:03,260 --> 00:30:08,880 Narrator: If you're looking for product development help on your invention, head over to Mako -design.com. 257 00:30:09,140 --> 00:30:18,060 Narrator: That's M-A-K-O Design dot com for a free consultation from one of MacoDesigns for design studios from coast to coast. 258 00:30:18,160 --> 00:30:20,380 Narrator: Thanks for listening and see you next time.