200 episodes later, I'm the one in the hot seat today.

Let's talk about LinkedIn podcasting and the stuff nobody tells you

until it almost breaks you.

I wanted this episode to be special for you listeners, and the only rules

for my host were that I wanted this episode to have emotion in it, so

it is very raw, very, very much me.

You'll hear me laugh, you'll hear me get angry at things,

and you'll also hear me cry.

I hope you enjoy it.

G'day everyone.

It's Coach Michelle J Raymond, your trusted guide for building your

brand and your business on LinkedIn.

And this is time for a celebration for me and for you listeners.

I am up to my 200th podcast episode and I never in a billion years ever

imagined that I would be recording something that had that title in it.

And it is just mind blowing as somebody that doesn't listen to podcasts, is this

committed to showing up every single week.

And I wanted to think about how I could make this episode interesting

for you, rather than just talk about, yay, I did 200 episodes.

Aren't I cool?

That's not helpful to anybody that's listening.

So I had this idea.

I wanted to go to the one and only PodMaster, Neal Veglio, who is a dear

friend of mine, my podcast coach, mentor, and probably counselor in the

background most of the time because I wanted to be a guest on my own show.

That's right.

I'm being a full-on narcissist in this episode and I am going to ask him

to hit me with your best questions.

Neal, thank you for agreeing to this craziness.

Oh it's an absolute honor and I can't wait to get started.

Look, I know that you have prepared questions, which I

don't know anything about.

The only way that I've set this up with you is I wanted it to be real.

Nothing's off limits.

and I'll answer whatever questions you ask me, so I'm a little nervous.

I'm sitting on the edge of my seat, but we're gonna get into this and just smack

straight into it right after this quick word about our podcast sponsors Metricool.

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Use the code, MICHELLE30.

Okay, Neal I've taken my big deep breath.

We are going to hit it.

What's your first question?

Let's do this.

I thought we'd start a little bit gently and get more of a sort of like an overall

picture of Michelle J Raymond, coach Michelle J Raymond, and you know what

Michelle does for the people that she helps, of which we know there are many.

So what I can ask you first of all is what is the most irritating misconception

that people have about what you do.

I think they think that I just give everything away for free.

That I just show up and do podcasts and write content and

you know, have a YouTube channel.

And that's the only way that people can work with me.

But the fact is, I do have a training business where I love

working with businesses to teach them how to grow their business.

So first and foremost, training is my absolute passion.

And these tools, like the podcast and all the content that I put out there are just

ways to give you little tasters of that.

But the main meal is definitely training.

But I've recently moved into doing things like Done for you services, Neal.

I've found in this world right now that training budgets got slashed.

There are teams out there that have halved in size as people got laid off.

So shout out to any of the listeners that have been through this.

But essentially what's happened is now there's these gaps where

people are like, oh, that's great that you got rid of half the team.

And no, AI can't just replace them.

So, you know, we need some help in the meantime to actually do the work.

So B2B Growth Co, Lil and I are in the business now.

We help more and more people with that done for you.

And sometimes it can be short term while you're trying to

maybe recruit for someone else.

And sometimes that's a longer term relationship, which are my

favourites, where I almost become like part of people's teams.

Probably the last thing that I do is I rewrite LinkedIn profiles for

people and I never thought this in a million years would also be something

that I would say, because somebody asked me a few years back, like,

Michelle, can you rewrite my profile?

We'd been working together for a little while and I was like, in

my head, I was like, oh God, no.

I can think of nothing worse if I'm being honest.

Like I was like, but I really like the customer and of course like, you

know, money in's always a good thing.

So I gave it a go.

And it turns out it's actually probably one of my favourite things to do because

I'm passionate about making sure that people don't undersell themselves in

their LinkedIn profiles, and most people in myself included, it's super hard to

write about yourself and especially when so much changes on LinkedIn to get it

right and having that optimisation so you show up in as many places, but nothing

makes me happier that when I do it for a client and then the feedback I get is.

Oh shit.

Is that me?

I was like, yes, that's you in your words.

You know?

And that's the kind of feedback I love because I can show people who

they really are out in the world.

So, uh, yeah, that's kind of fun.

But that's what I do.

If anyone's curious.

So when you are doing these profile rewrites, then, do you ever get any sort

of people, any clients that come back to you and they get a little bit icky about

what you've written and they've gone, oh no, I don't feel comfortable with this.

I wanna change it back again.

Has that ever happened to you?

They don't say that they wanna change it back, but they do

feel really uncomfortable.

Because it's the first time that they've probably ever seen somebody write about

'em in the way that I write about them.

So I discover what makes them unique.

I put it back to them in their own words.

So it's not like this really weird version, you know, written by in third

person, for instance, about them.

It is actually their own words and I uncover what they're really

passionate about in what they do and give it back to them.

And I do preface it before I start sending it back for the first round

of approvals and say, this will make you feel really uncomfortable.

Especially the women that I write the profiles for.

And I've got to work with some amazing people to rewrite their profiles

that are doing some amazing stuff and literally changing the world we live in.

And they look at it and they're like, oh wow.

Is that what I've achieved?

And I was like, yeah.

And I'm like, that's your words.

I'm not in the business of making stuff up.

I've just given it back to you like a mirror and shown you

who you are in the world to me.

And that is like just a blessing and one of my favourite things that I can do.

But yeah.

Does it make them feel really uncomfortable?

Absolutely.

Like do I love that piece the most?

Absolutely.

So obviously you live and breathe LinkedIn, obviously you got the

podcast, you got the YouTube channel.

You are massively prolific on LinkedIn, both on your own page and also the,

you know, the B2B company page the Social Media for B2B Company page.

Are there any days where you wake up, you get outta bed and

you think, oh, I just can't do LinkedIn today, like the rest of us.

A thousand percent, and those days are pretty frequent at the moment.

Over the last four to six weeks, if I'm being honest, and there's other podcast

episodes that I know you've listened to over the last few weeks that I share

about this stuff, because ever since they changed that algorithm back in

June, and it's all about that whole relevance versus reach, allegedly, you

know, IE we are meant to be seen by the more of the right people as opposed

to more people, and it's had a huge impact, and it's not just like on the

performance of my posts, like, you know, I don't care about numbers that much.

What it is the impact that it's had on people in my community

globally and I mean everybody.

We were used to this being a certain way for so long, like 20 odd years,

and then overnight you change the rules of the game that we've been playing.

And then now how do I measure success?

Because it was always the number of impressions on your posts that was the

go-to, the bigger the number, the better.

And then those numbers, which had been so consistent for me for, you know,

the last 10 years I've been doing this.

All of a sudden they dropped by 30, 40%, just like everybody else's.

And then I'll do a post, which I put, not much effort into.

It takes off.

No rhyme or reason to a lot of this stuff.

And so between that going on for me and the way it's impacting everyone

around me as a really sensitive empath kind of person, I pick up

everybody else's feelings on the platform and it really impacts me.

So I've found myself over the last kind of month, especially, like I

had to take some time away, like I've been a DIY Reno person off the

platform, away from LinkedIn just because I needed some time away.

Because it made me question, not just LinkedIn.

Like the honest answer is that it made me question, how could I show

up say on this podcast, which is all about using LinkedIn for growth.

How can I write content if right now my business wasn't performing as much as it

was, if my content isn't performing as much as it was, despite how much effort

I was putting in, like, you know, the types of work that I'm doing and the

amount of effort that I'm doing, and I've got Lil in the background that's also

helping me keep all of this together.

Like, she's that constant that's putting out the content on the company pages

that you see, for B2B Growth Co and Social Media for B2B Growth podcast page.

Like she takes care of all of that.

So we're doing what we were doing.

The world changed, you know?

And I'm not sure whether it's just the impact of AI, I dunno

whether it's financial markets and impacts around the world, the

uncertainty that comes with wars.

I don't know, it just feels awful to me right now, you know?

And I'm like, I don't wanna play.

I like sunshine and fairies and glass half full, and LinkedIn doesn't feel like that.

And I'm not sure when it's gonna come back or if this is

just what I need to adjust to.

Um, and yeah, it's tough.

And I, I feel for a lot of people out there, because I have the

wisdom and benefit that comes with 10 years of experience.

I've spent 20 years in sales.

I know what I've gotta do to get this back up and running.

If you are just starting out, like, yeah, I don't know what you're

gonna do, you will need help.

I don't think you can spend time like we used to be able to do, figuring

it out for yourself, making mistakes.

'cause the amount of time that it will take you to see results unless you cashed

up and got huge investment behind you.

I get worried for people, Neal, like I, I genuinely get worried for people because

they burn through their savings and money.

Like it or not brings you choices.

It's probably something that Lil taught me.

Money gives you choices.

So if you burn through your savings, that has an impact.

It's not just about LinkedIn, it's about the life you have, your

family, the holidays you wanna take.

Like that kind of stuff.

That's what I'm most worried about for other people.

Not whether their post hits, you know, 500 or a thousand impressions,

like could not care less.

That is my least favourite part about LinkedIn.

But how do you use it to grow your business?

That's what I'm focused on and right now it's tough, myself included.

Okay.

Talking about yourself included, let's explore that for a moment.

So you said if you were having to start again, you wouldn't know what to do.

So let's imagine you are your own client.

What advice is Coach Michelle J Raymond, giving coach Michelle J

Raymond in the morning tomorrow.

What a fabulous question.

This is exactly why I got you here.

Coach Michelle J Raymond would look back.

The very first thing that we've gotta work out is what makes you unique or

different to everybody else out there.

Because if I look back when I set up B2B Growth Co, which had a completely

different name five years ago, and I was just faking it and figuring it out,

and just figured maybe during COVID, like I could teach my old industry,

which is the beauty industry, how to use LinkedIn to sell, like I had been

as an account manager working for someone else for the six years before

that, and it seemed like a good idea.

And I still think it was, but silly me, instead of just chasing down that

industry, all of a sudden got distracted.

And that was an industry, I was the only person in the world that

was creating content on LinkedIn.

I was talking about that industry.

It would've been such an easy transition.

But I thought I had to let go of that industry to set up this new business.

And in hindsight, I wish I'd just stuck to it because it would've been easy

to be Michelle, the LinkedIn trainer for the beauty industry globally.

I'd already built a community, I'd built up credibility, I'd built all of that.

I was different to everybody else.

So the one thing that made my journey different was, figuring out

that company pages were the thing that no one else was talking about.

And so therefore I could own that space.

And people that are listening to this going, yeah, but everybody talks about

my particular topic, no one's a unicorn or the monopoly in most industries.

Find your way of doing it, whether you like to be like the person that's

calling crap out and you know, like Neal does or if you care about other

people like I do or mixtures of both, like we both have the same.

This is why I think we get along so well 'cause we actually care

enough to call out the rubbish.

But I think you gotta stand for something as well.

I think that's important.

So going back, find something that makes you unique.

Have opinions and make a stand for something and just be really clear

and not try and make it fancy and polish it up to the point where no

one else understands what you do.

Because that's the danger on LinkedIn of trying to be professional.

And I think being professional on LinkedIn is what kills most people's results.

So are you saying then that you would now if this was tomorrow, if you had to set

in place a strategy 24 hours from now, are you saying you would double down on that?

Is that your approach?

Yeah, I would definitely double down on that.

I, over different periods of time have strayed away from things like

company pages, you know, like there are times when I get crappy with the

performance of them and I get really upset and just, I'm like, they're crap.

Why do we need to worry about it just like everybody else.

And I think I love selling, so maybe I'll, talk about selling more.

And there's plenty of people on LinkedIn that talk about that.

So I tend to go off the track, bring myself back on track, off and back on.

And that's probably from a lack of planning on my behalf.

Like that's not my strength.

I'm not a planner.

I need to probably establish more of that.

So if I was, talking to myself, this is the, the counselor

that you always are for me.

It is having that strategy and that planning, just like I teach my clients

in my G.R.O.W.T.H framework, g is for game plan, but taking time out of my

business to actually slow down for a minute and say, okay, what are we doing?

Where are we going?

And what makes me different is some questions I need to answer for myself.

Let's talk more about the podcast.

Let's get meta for a moment.

So 200 episodes.

Congratulations.

First of all.

That is, I can tell you now, as someone that works with lots of

podcasters and has done for many years, that's an incredible achievement.

The amount of podcasts that get to that landmark, probably fewer than

I could count on one hand, certainly when I've got a pint in the other.

But my question for you is, when did you first realise, because I know you

had a bit of a checkered past with your podcast when I first met you, you

weren't really that in love with it.

Let's be honest about it.

But present company, accepted listener, thank you very much for joining us.

But you know, that's the truth is the podcast wasn't really getting

you the results that you wanted.

You were thinking, oh, why am I doing this?

I'm not really into it.

When was the moment that you actually realised, you know

what, this could change my life.

Yeah.

And it is a confession.

The first, I would say, hundred episodes, I have thought about

going back and deleting those.

And if I I know I'm not allowed to.

And I know that they're part of the journey.

And I know that some people would have been around, you know,

we're talking years ago now.

But when I first started it, it was because, my friend Michelle Griffin,

she said, Michelle, you need a podcast?

And I was like, why do I need a podcast?

She's like, it's good for your personal brand.

I was like, oh, okay, whatever.

So I figure out the tech so that I can record it, you know, much.

Uh, and I'm not gonna say I figured out the tech well, but enough

to get it recorded and uploaded, uh, yeah, until I learn better.

If I could go back to my younger self podcasting days, go, just go

and speak to Neal, get him to do it properly for you the first time.

You could save yourself a hundred episodes.

Uh, but what happened was.

I did it because I wanted to have conversations with people.

I almost wanted them to become my friends, and there was no rhyme or reason to it.

There was no strategy.

There was no person that was a listener in mind.

It was all about me and what I needed and wanted.

And that was fine.

And having guests was always good to help keep me accountable, like, because I can't

be trusted, you know, back then to show up every week and do that consistently.

I literally just did whatever and the downloads were, you know, when you

see numbers like 30 or 20 and you're thinking, talking to 20 people, like,

what the heck is this microphone even on?

Like, is anyone out there listening?

Like, that's what it was thinking, God, this is a lot of work.

By the time you record and edit and you know, organise all the guests.

It's what, six, eight hours for the level and standard that I was doing

when someone like you is doing it, and sure you're an expert, so you could

probably speed some of those processes up, but it's not a half an hour show.

Half an hour is the amount of time I invested into it.

So there was a moment and when I started to see that the messages that I started to

get when I tightened things up were from people that I really wanted to work with.

And they were my favourite clients when they became clients.

We were aligned in values.

They knew exactly who I was, how I would show up, my approach to LinkedIn.

So, you know, in the early days before I got this sorted, it'd be like

people in engagement pods, and I'd wanna punch them through the screen.

I was like, no, we're not going down engagement pod route.

Like we can't do that.

Uh, so, but now, like the people I work with from the podcast are just amazing.

And as you know, I think it was like January, 2023, I got

a cease and desist letter.

from LinkedIn asking me to basically change the name of the podcast.

That was putting it nicely.

If I didn't do it, I would lose my whole LinkedIn account.

I had to change the name, which meant changing the website, removing

LinkedIn's logo from every YouTube banner that I'd ever created.

There was a long list of things and in a huge amount of work that I needed

to do, and by taking, it was called LinkedIn for B2B growth, which is a

great title for this podcast, and that I had to take it out and my numbers kept

sliding in a way that I couldn't stop it.

And you and I worked together, I think it was July, 2023, the first time.

'cause I knew at that point I either needed to have expert help

that would turn this around or flick the switch, say goodbye and

say, no more podcasting for me.

And that moment I think was the moment that I went, actually,

no, this is important to me.

I realised the loyalty that podcast listeners come with.

I realised that it's a really close and intimate relationship with podcast

listeners, even though I don't know who they are, like, and so it's weird and I

know you and I have had this conversation.

You are nodding your head.

For those people that'll be listening to this on the audio, Neal's like

nodding his head fiercely in agreement.

And it, it's just weird.

But I love it.

And I, for someone that doesn't listen to podcasts, I finally think I get it.

Neal, there you go.

There's your sound grab.

I think I finally get the power of podcasting and it ha it's

grown my business like absolutely.

Most of my new clients typically come from a lead from my podcast

now, like six, seven outta 10 easily.

Uh, which for someone that spends so much time on LinkedIn, you know, like

it makes you question things some days.

So let me understand that you are basically saying that the moment you

realised this podcast was changing your life was after the drama with

LinkedIn, after you felt that show was being taken away from you.

Everything you'd built with it was under threat.

That was the, it took that for you to realise, do you know what

this podcast is amazing and it is absolutely changing my life.

Yeah.

'cause I had to realize at that moment that I wasn't doing it for me and me only.

Like I love showing up and being in service of my audience and my listeners.

And this had become such an amazing way for me to do that.

And if you remember when we first spoke, like I used to always have

guests and I was far too scared and doubted myself severely, that I could

never record an episode by myself.

And remember, like I'm sure that there's dms between you and I, in fact, I know

that there are where I was going, oh my God, when I try and record one by myself,

this thing's taken me like an hour to do.

It's all too hard.

It get stuck in my own head.

And the only way I got out of it again was I'm not doing it for me.

I'm doing it for the people that listen.

'cause I genuinely am in service of that audience.

And then when I finally got outta my own head again, had a strategy where

I would show up, create something that would be useful for other

people, that they could go away and immediately put into practice easily.

And it was easy to understand for everyone, no matter what

level that they were at.

I started enjoying it even more and I wanted to show up and I have guests

infrequently now 'cause I'm like, no, this is my moment and my microphone

and I've, I work so hard to build this and I've built it completely

organically, over that time, as you know.

It's just been from getting better and better at this craft.

Like, how can I be a better speaker?

I think the best compliment I've got is people keep questioning if I am one of

those AI generated videos and, I'm like, no, I just talk like this and thanks.

Is my skin routine working?

You think I'm like that perfect.

Uh, but you know, like that's what practice and commitment

and dedication to this.

'cause there are days when I think, God, is this thing working?

Why should I?

Is it all worth it?

And you know, then I have a podcast listener reach out and say, you

told me in the ads that you wanted people to reach out and connect.

Here I am.

And I'm like, yes, I genuinely do.

And I

Oh, so that does work then.

Brilliant.

It does, really does.

Who would've thought, I'm pretty sure that came out of our strategy session,

like when we were setting up those, little sound bites and just, getting better at

little bits of podcasting because it's not just as you would say, show up,

turn on the mic record and then go away.

Like, like, honestly, that just feels like someone's sliming you know, just,

it's like no one needs anymore talking at, and again, it's still for me, I'm

gonna say hard to do something which I'm so passionate about, and the people on

the other side and not know who you are.

So if you are listening to this and you hear the messages where I say,

please reach out and connect with me, like it's genuine, please reach

out and let me know you listen.

Love it.

Great answer.

What's the most excruciating myth about how to achieve LinkedIn success?

That you wish would just die already.

And why is it engagement pods?

You stole my answer.

I think, you know, in general that you can shortcut success and by that it

could be engagement pods, it could be using automation tools, it could be

using AI to write content that you think nobody else knows that you used ai.

We do.

We feel it like the feeling and the empathy and the emotions and

the humour and the sense of who you are as a person is missing from it.

And we can feel it, you know, like, and that's what I think is actually

missing on LinkedIn right now.

And unfortunately it happened at the time when the algorithm chopped things

in half and then the AI content came in that took the soul out of the platform.

And those two things happened at the same time, and it was really.

Ugly collision.

And I think that's why it feels so rocky out there at the moment, but trying to

cheat the system to get, results for your business, for your work, however

you use LinkedIn, that whole side of LinkedIn infuriates me at best.

And I'll keep it nice on the podcast so we don't have to use that bleep button,

uh, you know, over and over again.

But

it infuriates me.

Yeah it just infuriates me because.

Good people that are super smart that the world should hear their

voices are getting drowned out.

That is what's driving me crazy about it.

'cause those people give up.

Not all of the I, I call them like the mosquitoes at picnics.

Like they're all around and they swarm and they're annoying and you just

wanna slap 'em and make 'em go away.

That's the engagement pod and automation people to me, like go away.

Like no one wants another automated untargeted message about whatever crap

you're offering and that nobody, you didn't even find out did the person need.

That's the thing, like it takes time to build relationships,

trust and credibility on LinkedIn.

There's nothing I can do about that.

That's called being humans.

And if it's worth it to you, it's worth putting in the effort..

And it doesn't mean you have to have thousands of followers.

But it's time to actually cut those numbers, like forget about

the numbers and get back to why are you actually even doing this?

And I think if I can influence some people out there that might be listening to this

or see my content or whatever it happens to be, to actually go, oh yeah, that

automation tool that promises the world, but breaks the LinkedIn user agreement.

Yeah.

As much as I want my time back, is it worth the risk of alienating my target

audience and potentially losing my account and alienating your target audience?

That for me, is the biggest risk to anybody's LinkedIn strategy is

burning through those contacts.

Just because you think automation makes life easier.

I wish.

It just doesn't work like that.

If it did, I would be here sharing it with everyone.

I'm lazy at heart.

It may not seem like it, but I'm genuinely a lazy person looking

for the easiest way to do things, and that is unfortunately not it.

Tell us.

About a core belief that you've had around LinkedIn since you really

started taking this seriously that you've now U-turned on.

Oh, core belief.

Yeah.

Look, sometimes it is about engagement pods, you know, and this

is hilarious given the conversation that we've just had, and I haven't

done a full U-turn, but I can see the attraction to engagement pods.

I can see why people are drawn to them.

I can see the idea of being part of a community and helping each other.

I can see why people are attracted to it.

I also question some days whether being right about engagement pods.

So for people who dunno what it is, you pay to be a part of a group where

everyone likes and comments on your stuff.

You look like you've got hundreds of likes, hundreds of

comments, and you are so amazing.

Now, I fundamentally disagree with cheating the system, but there are some

days Neal, where I think like, what's the point of me trying to play by the rules

when no one else is playing by the rules or the people that aren't playing by the

rules are getting more opportunities, getting paid more, growing faster.

And you know, unfortunately people judge LinkedIn success by numbers

of followers that the person has.

And when you think about it, could go and buy 10,000 followers for about 500 bucks.

It's gonna take me inviting a hundred a week at a 40% acceptance rate.

I don't know, someone else can do the maths for me out there, but I'm

gonna have a lot more grey hairs by the time that 10,000 ever happens.

So some days there is a part of me that goes, am I the dumb one?

And then of course I just like slap myself across the face and go, Michelle,

you could never live with yourself.

You couldn't sleep at night.

But I'd be lying if I said that I hadn't thought about that recently

because some days it does feel like the only way to win is cheating.

And you know, when you look at other people who are allegedly winning at

LinkedIn and they're cheating and they are some of the best known or most well-known

names out there, um, yeah, I don't know.

But for those of you out there, don't worry.

I haven't gone to the dark side.

Do you know, I love that honesty, and I will, I'll be, you know, I'll.

I'll share, uh, equal honesty here that I actually, about a month

ago, I myself did research some tools and then I thought to myself,

should I, I mean, does anybody care?

And of course we got our friend Daniel, who's out there exposing all these people,

and I thought, whenever, be interesting if I showed up on one of his pods.

And then it's like the whole hypocrisy of I spent nearly 18

months during a mental health crisis going nuts on all this publicly.

And then it's that whole thing, isn't it?

Of you've had this very staunch position on it.

Like that is brand damaging.

If you suddenly go, do you know what, actually, I think I got this

wrong and now I'm doing it as well.

It's just not worth it, as you say, is it?

Yeah.

And I couldn't be someone, which seems to be a trait of people in

the engagement pods of pretending and denying that I'm not.

I'm not that person, Neal.

Like I am such an open book.

I will tell anyone anything about myself.

I have nothing to hide.

And so I would tell them, and then I would have to deal with like how I

felt about myself if I was to do that.

And I would feel like I'm letting people down that.

It implies that you are not enough, that this game can't be

won if you play by the rules.

And I, I wholeheartedly disagree with that.

Like I run a successful business.

I help other people to achieve goals on LinkedIn.

I know that it works.

And so I keep coming back to that on the hard days and I just keep

going back to why do I do this?

Problem solving and helping people.

The more I do with both, the more that my business grows.

And it's just like trusting in the process to grow the podcast.

Like if you'd asked me back in the beginning where I'd be lucky to get what,

50 to a hundred downloads in a month, that I would be getting 3000 downloads,

which again, there are people out there that are probably getting millions and

I'm like, no, I know my 3000 are real.

They're genuine listeners.

They get value from this.

It is helping them achieve their goals like that means something to me and I

don't want to jeopardise what fulfillment I get out of that by compromising

it with, oh, I cheated to get there.

Imagine giving up fulfillment.

That's not something that I'm prepared to compromise on.

There were some parts of my job I have to do because that's how you run

a business and you probably do 80% of stuff that you don't really like.

So you can do the 20% you do like, um, that's called owning a business when you

don't have, you know, 50 million staff to do everything you don't want to do.

And that's okay.

But I'm not giving up the piece that keeps me most fulfilled, which is

seeing my clients have those light bulb moments where they have that change

where someone does their first post.

When they get over that fear and start to put themselves out there,

nothing could replace that for me.

And if I just said, oh, just put it in here and throw it

and everyone's gonna like it.

People see through that pretty quickly and go.

Um, I don't understand.

Why do all these third world country people keep liking my content and how

is that gonna get me new business?

Like, uh, no it's not.

But hey, you'll feel good about yourself.

'cause you've got the dopamine hits, like yeah.

Hollow victory, right?

It quite.

So talking about, you know, you were saying about how you want

to grow everything authentically, including the podcast.

So for anybody that's been enjoying this show since episode 100, we're

now, we've established, we're now on, you know, we're at the 200 mark.

We're hopefully many still to come, but what do you think the biggest shift

your audience will have experienced with you since episode 100 to now?

My confidence in speaking my views and not just relying on

expert guests who I look up to.

And I used to think that only my listeners would show up just because I

had these well-known guests and I have had some pretty amazing guests on the

show who I love these people they've taught me, inspired me, are super cool.

But you know, as you said to me, Michelle, they show up week after

week for me, not for the guests.

And that was like, you know, smacked me straight between the eyes.

Like what the, like what?

Like, and I still, some days, and now I've got the confidence to say what I

wanna say in my own way and call out the things that I want to call out and

give people both sides to the story.

And I think that's what my listeners appreciate is that

I will give you both sides.

I'm not here to tell you exactly how to do LinkedIn, but I will tell

you, look, this is the upside, this is the downside you choose, right?

Like I will give you pros and cons, but it's ultimately coming back to you

to figure out what works best for you.

So as we go forward, I, you know, I think there's some of the beliefs that I have

around, you know, AI is probably the thing that's impacting LinkedIn and you know,

the world in general so much right now.

But I feel like we are moving away and using that as the decoy that's distracting

us from doing the real work that matters.

IE having conversations with people.

And it feels like if I use a tool, I won't have to talk to my customer.

I won't have to use empathy to understand what it's like for them.

And so going against the grain, I would be more popular, I think if

I just went, yay, AI here's your 20 prompts, and I will do some of that.

But in my heart of hearts, what's right for me is to say, no, you need

to go back and build relationships.

And that is the core of success on LinkedIn.

Finding those right people, connecting with those right people, nurturing

them, being patient over time is going to get people further than the latest

AI tool that can mimic your voice and pretend that the content was written by

you when we all can feel that it's not.

I just wholeheartedly believe that and use the tools to save you time elsewhere.

Like go for, I'm not an anti AI person, but I just, I think I have

to be a stand that it just can't be a part of relationships and, uh,

that's gonna go against what a lot of people out there are gonna tell you.

And I'm gonna have to be okay with that.

Just like I was when I was telling people that company pages should be

part of a business strategy on LinkedIn.

And people like, no, that's rubbish.

Like, you are wrong, blah, blah, blah.

I'm okay with that and I, I hope that my listeners appreciate that.

They may or may not agree with me.

That's totally fine.

Like, I hope that, you know, a group of them don't agree with me.

That's what I love about LinkedIn is that we can have different voices out there.

And the biggest, fear that I have is we end up clones of each other.

Like that would be the thing that would make me most sad about LinkedIn is if it

just became clones of clones, of clones.

Oh, I like the fact that you brought up clones of each other because you're

talking about AI there and about how a lot of people are sort of leaning into

automation and right, like they've just basically copied and pasted from ChatGPT.

Are you not concerned?

He says in a leading question kind of way about the potential for plagiarism

on actual human written work increasing.

I've had people steal my stuff, Neal, so if you want to find out what I'm,

my opinion is on this, I've had it happen by people that were genuinely

doing it in a way that they thought was respectful of me, and they were

really amazed with what I'd done.

And by taking it, they thought that I would see that as a good thing on my

side, you know, like that I had inspired them, like, don't come at me with,

inspired by like, honestly, rah, you know, like I just, you know, I'm gonna

Note to Lil Lion.

Sound a tiger Sound effect in there.

Because the thing is, I've had people steal my stuff and put my name in a

font in about two font on the last carousel slide down in the bottom corner

somewhere that if you get out a magnifying glass, you might see my name in there.

I've had things where people have taken my transcripts and they're just

basically presenting it as their own.

Um, I get that.

I put content out there that people can use and, you know, again I don't

want to turn into the cynic that holds it all, you know, and I stop being me.

When you take my stuff and go and present it as your own, and

especially I get people that are training their workplaces based on my

YouTube videos, based on the podcast.

You know, just give me some acknowledgement, say that you've used

my content, have that conversation within your workplaces so that the

is an opportunity for me to work with potentially some of your businesses.

I appreciate that some of you may not have the resources to be

able to work directly with me.

I have no problem with that.

It's when you take it and present that work as your own.

That upsets me.

I get that, it seems like I said as a compliment on that side.

But I've gotta eat, right?

Like I've got a family and I've got dreams and goals and things that I wanna do, and

this is how I, you know, do my business.

So stealing it, whether it's ChatGPT stealing it, which I've seen it do that.

Like when LinkedIn used to have the AI summaries, it literally

stole one of my frameworks and didn't put my name next to it.

And that's when I knew I was in trouble.

That was when I was like, okay, what are we gonna do here?

I don't know how to stop it.

I don't have the answers for that right now.

I do put stuff out into the public domain, like, and I get it and I just

don't know the balance between being of service and that content marketing

versus it's out there free for all.

You can steal my stuff and present it as your own.

I don't know where we go from there.

I don't know if you've thought about this yourself, Neal, I know

you put so much stuff out there in the world of podcasting as well.

what do we do to protect our IP?

My stuff is so bad.

Even AI doesn't wanna steal it, to be honest with you.

So I don't really worry about it too much.

I just carry on posting my nonsense and just hope somebody

somewhere thinks it's half decent.

It's half decent.

It goes all right.

I wouldn't have you here if it wasn't, but, you know, it's an interesting

time because there are generations that, you know, have grown up with,

you know, things like TikTok, where.

Somebody creates a really great idea, you then go and do your own

version of it and be inspired by it.

And that's perfectly normal on that platform.

And maybe it's just, I'm getting old these days, maybe I don't get it.

Maybe I need to change.

And there's probably a bit of self-reflection in here as well.

Maybe I don't give away as much, you know, like there's probably a fine tuning and

calibration to kind of go on right now.

But it just, that combined with some of the other things that we've

spoken about earlier in the podcast certainly has got me going i've got

a few question marks on what 2026 might look for me for my business

and, you know, working with clients.

And I think that's probably a good thing.

I don't think we can just keep doing same old and have it work out like it has

because the world has definitely changed.

Well, don't you think it's more about and sorry to you know, pontificate on your

own show a little bit here, but I think you raise a valid point about, you know,

how do you differentiate and you're sort of talking about AI making it easier for

imposters, but also the plagiarism aspect.

If you do have anything real to say, there is a risk that someone's

gonna go, oh, I like that.

I'm inspired by that.

Don't you think that's where the storytelling comes in?

Because nobody can actually have your stories.

Like a machine can't say, oh well my dad was a policeman and I worked

in beauty and now I'm teaching people how to put content out there.

They just can't do that, can they?

So do you think that is maybe the 2026 strategy?

Yeah, look, you have to put more of you into it, you know, like the more that

it moves away from generic and general advice into, like you said, it could be

storytelling, it could be my experiences.

And I think that's what I, you know, talk about with my clients so much is, you

know, your business and the people that you have within it are completely unique.

Your ways of doing stuff.

And so I think sharing about that definitely is important.

And I think we need to do more of that 'cause you're right, it can't be copied.

Your experiences can't be copied.

And I think that's where it becomes real and where people

can kind of latch onto that.

And most important, it becomes memorable because you made somebody feel something,

and I think that's where content for me in 2026, how do you make someone laugh.

How do you make someone angry?

How do you make someone get a little bit sad, a little bit happy?

Whatever the feelings are fired up in some way.

I think feelings and content, and that comes with storytelling is part of

what needs to happen, going forward.

Because that soulless content it's just not going to cut it.

Like, it's just awful, and it just feels, yeah, like what's the point?

And I think that's the tough question right now.

What's the point of the content that we're putting out there?

And if you don't have an answer for that, don't put content out.

You know, like take a minute and go back and think, why am I doing this?

You know, just because I want to tick a box and say I've

gotta do three posts this week.

Um, yeah, no, it's not a good enough reason really.

I love it.

Okay, so here's a deep one for you.

If LinkedIn disappeared tomorrow in this weird world where Microsoft just go, do

you know what we're selling and we're gonna sell it to some company that aren't

interested in social media anymore?

What are you doing?

Yeah, I'm gonna say podcasting, like, and I'm not saying that

just 'cause it's you, um, but it is something that I've realised.

So I'm active on, I have two, like three main platforms right now.

So I have LinkedIn as my primary.

I have two podcasts that I do Social Media for B2B Growth Podcast is my main one.

The LinkedIn Branding Show, is also a podcast that's coming up to 200 episodes

as well, which is kind of crazy when I think about it and have a YouTube channel.

Now what I've discovered is that my highest quality clients that I can

work with, I come from my podcast, it hands down every single time.

And you can use that for your sound bites that, you know, my client,

Michelle J Raymond, says, uh, yeah, you can absolutely use that because

I've done the maths, I've seen it.

And the clients that reach out from YouTube, from those

videos, they're different.

They're often looking for free advice.

Uh, and you know, price points end up a bit outta skew, you know, like,

'cause they come in with a different.

They're looking for a solution or an answer to a question, they find that

via YouTube, whereas the relationship building happens on podcasting.

So I'd be on the, uh, blower straight to you going, uh, we need to find

me lots more podcast listeners.

I think I'd love to help businesses create podcasts as well, so that they have this

opportunity to build relationships with people and not just hide behind content.

Because I feel like content on LinkedIn for businesses is handed down to the

person with the least experience that they don't want to pay for someone senior and

they don't set that person up for success, whoever it is, and they just throw them

in the deep end and push them under the bus and say, yeah, you'll be right.

Like, you know, just, you can write a post.

You can do it like it's fine.

And so with podcasting, you will find out very quickly that doesn't work yet.

And if you don't think about who you're doing it for and why you're

doing it, and what will they get out of it and stop talking about yourself.

Then podcasting doesn't work.

I've got a hundred episodes I can prove to you.

I didn't get any business out of those episodes.

Like, that was just me doing it because I thought I needed to do

it to build my personal brands.

Um, and now that I realize that's not why I am doing it.

Yes, it does help me build my personal brand, but that's not why I do it anymore.

And yeah, the impact on my business has just been pretty amazing.

And again, I still can't believe that I'm having this conversation about podcasting

as someone that just didn't get it.

And you just didn't, as I've said to you, I just read the

transcripts and podcast episodes.

I could never understand why someone would wanna listen to them.

And, you know, I have a few podcasts that I listen to.

I now listen to yours.

I listen to Jay Sch Wetsons

that I've got three, I've got three now I've got three.

You know, like, and it's crazy to think.

That I've got three podcasts that I listen to now, which, you know,

again, for someone who can't learn via listening, that's a big deal.

But I have to be on the bike at the gym.

I can't be anywhere else.

I have to be stuck in the one spot.

You mean you stop listening to your dance remixes now and

No.

You only get a turn when I'm sitting on the, you know, like the

weights or like doing that when I need some actual motivation.

You are not it my friend.

I love you,

Love it.

I love

but I need my hard dance music to get me really going.

Like, you know that

Oh, I get those periods in a day too.

All right.

So that's great.

And actually that segues really nicely what you were saying about,

um, you know, uh, teaching people so.

You have taught a lot of people, let's be honest about it with your show, you

know, your, not just your podcast, um, which obviously has given immense value

over you'd say a hundred episodes.

But I mean, you were starting the journey.

I'm sure there was some valuable stuff in the first 100 as well.

So that's a lot of people that you've taught to grow on LinkedIn in that time.

But what's something, and I guess it's gonna be a harder one to identify

from your podcast audience, 'cause you predominantly don't know who many of

those are, but those that have fed back to you and those that have fed back to

you through the LinkedIn platform as well.

What's something that they've taught you about yourself?

I think the thing that those people teach me about myself.

Is self-belief.

And that might sounds like a, a cringe kind of comment, but the honesty of that

is that I'm one of those people that is a high performer in most of the things

that I do that never thinks I'm doing good enough, is the story of my life.

You have been on the end of my self-doubt kind of conversations

where I'm like, is this enough?

How are my numbers?

Where am I at?

Especially when I was questioning whether I should keep going with

the podcast, should I go by myself, shouldn't I, and those messages that

I receive from people, especially when they say things like, um, it's easy to

understand I'm not , going on like a lot of the other rubbish that's out there.

They know that they can apply it, they can relate to it.

Those kind of things really give me the encouragement to keep

going and shut the noise up in my head, which is pretty nonstop.

And it's not imposter syndrome.

Like, it's not that.

I know that I know my stuff, but I often doubt whether the people out there will

love it as much as I want them to love it.

I am that person that's like, do you love me?

Do you love me?

Do you love me?

Like, it's nonstop question in my head.

Uh, so when I get those messages, it's that moment where the self-doubt stops.

Just, you know, briefly, for me to actually enjoy this and

remember that I actually genuinely love doing it now, you know?

And I hope that they feel that, and I hope that people understand that I show

up every time and you think I've got it all together and it's easy for me.

And, Michelle can speak really good and all that kind of other stuff.

The fact is I have to show up week after week and get past my own stuff,

that I have my own version of it in my own head just like everybody else.

But I choose to do this for other people and get myself out of the way.

But yeah, when I get those messages, uh, you know, the, you know, podcast

reviews, they're like hens teeth.

So when they actually happen, and they're someone's written one, I am,

you know, high fiving myself behind the scenes, and it just gives me that

little pep in my step to keep going.

And who knows how many episodes that this podcast will end up like,

it, it's just crazy to think about.

But yeah, I have a lot of talking to do, but thank you to anyone that does

leave those messages and send them to me.

Like they, they genuinely mean the world to me.

And yeah, I appreciate anyone that's ever done that.

Last Last question and it's a biggie

Uh oh.

legacy.

20 years from now when you are all retired from your final house

renovation, looking back on all that delicious Metricool money.

What do you want people to think about when they think about you?

That I genuinely cared.

I want people on the other side to know that yes, this.

Is my business.

It absolutely is.

And I unashamedly, uh, I'm here to help other people grow their business.

Now, there's a piece of the story that I don't talk about very often about

why I do this, and so I think now's as good a time as any to share it.

But, um, about, I don't know, let's call it 20 years ago,

the timing doesn't matter.

I was driving home, uh, from Mardi Gras Parade here in Sydney back.

I live two hours away and driving home at stupid o'clock in the morning.

I came across a car accident in the middle of the road where I ended up

trying to help that young person who ended up literally dying in my hands.

And you might be thinking like, you know, what has this got to do with LinkedIn?

Well, it turned out as part of that story that young person was killed by a

drink driver, and I saw the impact that it had on their family, and from that

moment it changed me because I realised that when people make bad decisions,

it has impacts on, you know, whole communities in this particular case.

What's that got to do with things?

Well, I always look and go, you know, as I shared earlier, money gives you choices.

And I like to think that if people grow businesses, they can hire people that then

get paid, that then can have choices and hopefully make good choices in their life.

And, are surrounded by people that will help them also make good choices.

And so this business growth for me is about giving other people choices

so that, you know, maybe just, maybe they don't make a decision like that

young person did that time, that had such a prolific impact on my life and

the people that were involved in that.

So if you wanna know why I do what I do, that's where it goes back to.

I knew that we would end up, uh, somewhere like this in this conversation.

And for those of you who can't see, I'm fighting back the tears right now.

'cause it's a good reminder to me of why I do this.

Um, and the bonus is I get to do what I love.

I get to help people and problem solve, which is my favourite

thing in the world to do.

Um, and I just happen to find LinkedIn to do it, you know,

because I still believe in the tool.

I still think it's an amazing way to connect with people that are experts

in their field all over the world.

But if I can help you grow your business so that we live in better

communities where people don't make dumb decisions, then that's a

reason to do another 200 episodes.

As far as I'm concerned.

What a beautiful answer.

Seriously.

Well done.

I'm very proud of you with that.

That was a great, uh, bit of vulnerability.

I'm gonna rerecord the question because I want it to fit better.

Is that all right?

You can do whatever you do,

you and I can

the metrical money part is appropriate given the response, so

No, I think it is because, no I don't think so

because, no I think we leave it as it is

because.

The genuine part is I do work hard and I do want to grow a business,

and I am unashamedly here to do that just as much as the personal

impact and legacy that I wanna have.

And, you know, someone like Lil Who shout out to Lil I couldn't

do all of this without her.

Like, and I couldn't do this episode without acknowledging who she is for

me and who she's in our business.

And if it wasn't for her, I wouldn't be here.

Like, it's just that simple.

Having her in my corner, it was her idea to do the business.

It's her that picks me up from the corner when I'm having those meltdowns where

I think, oh my God, nobody loves me.

Why do I keep doing this?

Um, I'm not very good at what I do.

All those kind of things that, like I said, my brain goes

through without having her here.

But I'm here to help my family have the dream life that we wanna have,

just as much as everybody else.

So, yeah don't cut it out because I'm proud of the partnerships that I build

by being who I am and, that's a part of my story just as much as everything else.

So, yeah, no need to rerecord it.

I'm just super proud that people, you know, like Metricool shout out to them,

have supported the podcast when I, again, didn't even think that anyone

would want to be a partner and support my podcast 'cause I didn't have enough

downloads, or it wasn't big enough, or it wasn't this, or it wasn't that.

And they were like, no, we'll grow together.

And I think that is what I love about this, is that I'm surrounded

by people we're all growing together.

So, yeah, it's, yeah, I've gotta grow my own business.

If I don't take care of my own business, I don't get to do the rest of the stuff.

So yeah they're equally important to me.

I love it.

Well done.

That was brilliant.

Yay.

Yay.

Oh, look, and I have to say thank you again so much for everything

that you've done to get me to this point, because you know full well

that those doubts that I have when I send you texts and go, where am I?

Am I at you?

Where's my ranking?

What's going on?

Like, or I can't make my downloads move, or nothing's

happening, or should I do this?

Or can we change my intro?

Or

blah, blah, blah.

All the crazy.

To be fair, you haven't done that for at least six months, so we're all good.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Like I've been busy.

Like, you've been lucky though.

It's just one of those things.

But I, you know, I wanna say to people, people like you, Neal, are how I've

become so successful at what I do and, you know, you take the podcasting

piece of what I do and it is leveled up significantly since you and I became

friends and have worked together.

So, you know, we're gonna make sure that people have all the

details to get in contact with you.

And if you have a podcast for God's sake, go and do one of Neal's podcast audits

so that you don't put in all the work like I was and get no results, because

I can tell you it was immediate and we've got the screenshots of his fixes

all of a sudden meant that my podcast is being, heard by the right people and

more people, and it was just a godsend.

So I appreciate your friendship.

I appreciate that you are always there when, you know, it all hits

the fan, especially around the podcast, and I'm like, oh my God,

LinkedIn's gonna steal my podcast help.

And you just jumped in.

I just wanna say I'm completely grateful for everything that you've done.

And yeah, to anyone out there that has a podcast or wants a podcast, Neal's

the only person that I ever recommend.

So thank you kindly.

Thank you so, and thank you so much for asking me to do this.

It's been a real honor and an absolute blast as well, and lovely

to hear some really nice, honest, genuine, vulnerable answers as well.

So well done for wearing your heart and your sleeve in audio and video.

I know, right?

It's gonna be there.

But you know, as we said, feelings for 2026 stories for 2026, like, it's not just

something that I tell my clients to do.

I have to show up and do it myself.

So, uh, you know, thank you for bringing those out.

I couldn't have done them talking to myself.

So this episode has delivered everything I hoped and thank you to

all of the listeners, all of those people that subscribe and download.

Uh, if you have listened this far, the whole hour and we are not

connected on LinkedIn, like please, like it was genuine, make sure that

we are in connect with Neal as well.

Uh, yeah, you'll have some fun with that.

So everyone, I'm gonna wrap this one up.

Thank you for sticking around.

It's been a long one, but I hope you've enjoyed it as much as what I have.

Until next week, cheers.