Speaker: 00:02:26

And on that note, Chris, why don't you explain a little bit what you meant by that?

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Because I'd like us to unpack that Thoreauvian mindset, just what this film talked about,

what he meant.

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so unpack that a little bit.

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Well, the big takeaway as Michael Pollan says it beautifully in the film

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Thoreau

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asks us to wake up,

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politically, environmentally, but personally, he asks us

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to stop and recognize where we've been sleepwalking through life, right?

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What we allow that quietly diminishes us, But also where we have agency, his work is a

call for us to live deliberately, And to constantly ask questions of society and of

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ourselves, most importantly.

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and to reevaluate our values, our choices, our opinions, and to freely change course when

we realize through paying attention, Freely change course to something that feels right or

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feels more right or feels better, feels truer.

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So when Eric says that

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he's been very confident as an editor for a long time, but never really knew himself.

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You know, that's the whole point.

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Thoreau, through the exercise of his life, through the experiments of his life, knew

himself better and in a way that most people never do.

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and in doing so, he's able to have a fresh perspective on the outside world.

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and

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It's shortcomings for all intents and purposes, but it's very Theruvian.

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What I thought was remarkable is how prescient it was for today.

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He talked a lot about how consumerism was beginning to consume his culture.

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early on, he was remarking how the dams were beginning to destroy the fishes habitats and

migrating.

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he saw it was all in the guise of

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more clothing that we really didn't need.

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it was people just wanting to have more.

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And I just watched I don't know if you've seen the documentary, Buy Now, which isn't

necessarily a fantastic documentary, even though it's on Netflix, but the concept behind

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it is completely true just outrageous, which is what the world is doing to, trick us into

buying more.

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BUY, buy now.

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Got it.

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Clever.

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because the woman that perfected the one click buying on Amazon and curated all of the

pages to make sure that as soon as we thought we needed something, we would go to Amazon

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and put it in our cart, she's on there because she got fired from Amazon from trying to

hold them accountable for stuff, telling how she did those things.

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and here's a guy from the the 1850s Who who wrote the cost of the thing is the amount that

I will call life.

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Which is required to be exchanged for it like okay you want that that new iPhone How much

do you really want it?

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Are you really are you willing to sacrifice all of this time Just generating another

iPhone that you could be using

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in Thoreau's Therovian world to be appreciating nature or exercising or making art or

whatever it is that makes you happy.

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And it's just uncanny that he is seeing all this at the birth and this is the important

part of what you're saying, It's the actual birth of the Industrial Revolution.

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It's just starting.

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There aren't any trains.

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Trains only to him.

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He's like, this is speeding up life.

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This is not good.

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Yep.

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And yes, he takes it 70 times.

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it is interesting because it does make our life livable.

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There is that contradiction.

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And wait till you watch this show and you learn the facts about the iPhones and how they

make them and what they do for our lives or the computers and what's happening in terms of

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nobody planning for the end of life of these things.

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And you begin to see our responsibility, which is...

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what he's talking about, the concept of living to work versus working to live, we've lost

that.

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We've completely lost that life balance And that's actually something I want to move into

next off this philosophical discussion.

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Chris, you and I had this discussion offline before we started, which is as filmmakers, we

are in a very difficult time.

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We're living this out right now.

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We can't just make the things that we're passionate about because it costs an incredible

amount of money.

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And right now our industry is completely upside down and it's very difficult to sell

anything and make any sort of return even if it's a narrative film, but much less a

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documentary film if you're an independent filmmaker.

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But even if you're an established filmmaker at a studio, it's difficult these days.

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I always encourage people on this podcast, to think from the end, back.

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You cannot think, I want to make this thing.

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I want to make this thing and let's get started.

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Wouldn't want this to be great.

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And you can't if you actually want to be successful and make a living being a filmmaker.

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So why don't you talk to me about, how you,

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have walked this line or your thoughts about this whole part of it.

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Because I know it's something you're really passionate about.

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Yeah, I think that, well, two things, first and foremost, if, if you're passionate about

storytelling, and you leap so far ahead that you're thinking about, How am going to pay

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for this?

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where is it going to end up?

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Where's it going to live?

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Who's going to distribute it, whatever, you may start thinking about it logically, or you

may just never start,

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That's true.

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We're in a unique place for our lifetime, right?

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But it's not unprecedented.

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I go back and forth and anytime that I start to get really nervous about the state of the

industry, film, television, I have to pause and remind myself about a handful of things.

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And we'll start with Henry,

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You know, humankind, our society has gone through several revolutions, and at each point,

I have to put myself in the mindset of the people that were alive at that time, to use

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Henry as an example, he's growing up as a boy, very agrarian society.

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And then the industrial revolution kicks in, And all of a sudden,

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It seems to the people who are alive at the time that their ways of life are dissolving,

uh Everything is changing.

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Everything is new.

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Nothing is safe.

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we talk about it in the film that at this point, you know, many farmers, generational

farmers, their children would end up leaving the farm for the first time in five

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generations.

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and looking for work in factories because there was not enough land or the economy has

changed to the point where they're forced to do this.

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They're forced to break out and do something completely unnatural and new to them.

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And of course, that's got to seem like an absolute crisis at the time.

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But fast forward 40 years and all of a sudden, collectively, we're acclimated to the

Industrial Revolution and now we can't live without the train, et cetera.

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the same thing happened.

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So I went to film school in now moving in directly to relate to the film industry.

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I went to film school in the late nineties where, you know, and Eric was the same.

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Like we were filming with 8, 16 or 35 millimeter.

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I never shot with 35 millimeter because that's super fucking expensive, but like eight

millimeters, 16 millimeter and cutting on a steam Steenbeck you know, like we're actually

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cutting and splicing the film together, you know, whatever else.

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And right about the time that I was leaving film school, the digital sort of revolution

was taking place in cameras.

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And for me at that time, it was a godsend because I wanted to immediately, I wanted to

start making films.

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I wanted to start telling stories.

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But coming out of film school, knowing that I couldn't afford film,

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I couldn't gather the crew together that I needed, cetera, et cetera.

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It was almost impossible for one person to tell a story.

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In come digital cameras, right?

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So the industry at large bemoans digital cameras and thinks that it's going to be the

death of film, et cetera.

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It wasn't, it's a new tool and it revolutionized, democratized in a large sense, how we

tell stories, how filmmakers or photographers can work and work.

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faster and better and cheaper, It's going to change the art.

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Here we are at an AI revolution, you know, and of course, yes, it's super disruptive.

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The film industry is reeling right now for a number of different reasons, whether it be,

you know, COVID or strikes or fires or tax incentives or, whatever else.

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Now boom comes AI and everybody's, I shouldn't say everybody, vast majority of the

industry.

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is, crying wolf.

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We're all up in up in arms saying that this is going to be the death of acting, the death

of creation, the death of film, the death of this, that and the other thing.

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And I just I just I disagree.

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think I felt that way at first.

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I was seeing, Nano Banana and these image generating AI models coming out and the stuff

that they could do in five minutes.

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Like, yeah, it's going to it will ruin certain professions, you know, like

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I wouldn't want to be a retoucher, know, like stuff like that.

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It's creating.

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a voice actor, it's a challenge.

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Sure, absolutely.

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But it's going to be a challenge for everybody, in the creative industry for a while.

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But then we're going to figure it out, I believe, just like we did in the Industrial

Revolution and the digital revolution.

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100%.

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100%.

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Yeah.

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But we're going to realize that the AI is going to be the new tool to help propel

storytelling.

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So I'm not as doomsday about it as some of my colleagues are, some of my friends.

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agree.

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Go ahead.

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You know what still is, and always has been, super important?

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Best piece of advice I've ever been given in my life professionally, was that - the true

reward for a job well done is the opportunity to do it again.

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Has nothing to do with pay or credit or acknowledgement or you know, what have you.

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is, if this is the industry that you want to work in and you want to continue to work in

it.

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repeatedly over and over and over again, the most important thing you can do is a good

job, is to be like a team player and to be somebody that other people want to collaborate

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with, want to interact with.

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That is just invaluable advice because that's never going to change, ever.

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very, very true.

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Now, I will say it is still challenging.

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the reason I say that is, I've done a film.

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It's done very well, And I'm still having difficulty.

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getting funding for the next one.

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It's halfway done.

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I have lots of stories to tell and the ability to do it and a team that can help me and

having the ability to do that now in today's society is incredibly difficult.

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Now, does that mean it can't be done?

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No, I'm not giving up.

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I'm not gonna quit.

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I'm doing what I can do while I'm continuing to look for the next opportunity.

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And my point is, that's what we have to do now.

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we have to look and plan.

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I'm not going to stop, with my projects or my plans, but I am going to be super

intentional about the budgets and developing relationships for distribution and trying to

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figure out.

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how to solve this puzzle.

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we just have to be intentional networking and making our budgets smaller because we're

going to be making less money as documentary filmmakers.

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we have to educate ourselves on the industry, who the people are, what is happening out

there, reading the trades.

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There's just a lot of simple things that we can do.

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to educate ourselves about what the changes are.

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Learn AI.

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Don't be afraid of it, right?

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100 % yeah, I mean in any creative endeavor Money is always the biggest hurdle And it

continues to be and it's getting worse and worse

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I wanted to ask you about that because you guys did it with PBS and I think before you

came out or maybe maybe it was after CPB got their funding cut.

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Was it before you had funding or after?

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So we're in a unique position because none of the films that we make, so far they're all

for PBS, uh none of the films that we make rely on federal funding.

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of the films that we make are either funded because it's through a nonprofit, WETA, PBS of

course is nonprofit.

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So all of the funding for our projects thus far

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are essentially charitable donations.

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know, they're, the money is raised through grants, through foundations, the money is

raised through individuals of wealth who are passionate about the topic.

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And it has become admittedly extremely difficult to do.

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Whether it's our responsibility, which makes it even harder because we are not good at it.

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Or we have executive producers.

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mean, in this case, speaking of the Thoreau film, our two executive producers, Ken Burns

and Don Henley, with names like that attached to the film, you would think that it would

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blow the doors open to funding.

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But it's the exact opposite.

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say the single reason, the only reason

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that this film has been made and is now being promoted and will be aired is Don Henley.

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Not that he personally funded the film, but he was responsible.

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He had the lion's share of the responsibility because of his passion for it and because of

his connections to open doors to pathways for funding for the project.

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Eric and I can't overstate that.

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anymore than, than is absolutely the reason why the film is being made.

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I remember when I was watching Ken Burns' master class and I was in the middle of my own

fundraising and he told me that he has two binders sitting on his desk of rejection

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letters from fundraising and I started bawling my eyes out.

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I was like, what?

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Ken Burns, you've got to be kidding me.

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How is that possible?

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But, and that was back when, but I guess it still happens.

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Super interesting, and then we can move on to whatever you want.

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I just want to say if you or your, listeners have ever seen, a Netflix series, or at least

it lives on Netflix now called the Movies That Made Us It is a phenomenal look behind the

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curtain at some of the most culturally significant,

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Touchstone films of our time, ET Raiders of the Lost Ark, etc, etc, etc and it is the

stories about how these films were almost not made and in and watching I devoured this

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series and I go back to it frequently because When I watch this and I see that Steven

Spielberg has a hard time sometimes getting films made George Lucas was almost unable to

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do X Y & Z that you know

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It makes me feel better about my own shortcomings and my own struggles.

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Because I mean, it's this way for almost everybody.

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Yeah, it is encouraging.

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That's so true.

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Thank you for that.

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Okay, I do wanna move on.

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We're going over time, but this is just such a fascinating conversation.

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The next thing I wanna ask you is, so many people Google how to make money with PBS

documentaries or how do I get my documentary on PBS?

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Can you help us with that question?

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I would love to find that website myself.

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If you know of it, please let us know.

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Yeah, that is I mean, for real, like, you know, we it's a what we do is it's full of

integrity and responsibility and and ultimately, satisfaction, personal and social

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satisfaction.

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But it is I mean, I can't sugarcoat it for anybody.

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I mean, it is fucking hard.

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as it's always the case, with film and television, who you know, can be

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crucial to the success or failure of a project.

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How persistent you are also is crucial to the success or failure of a project.

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one of our great friends David Cieri, who's our longtime composer and just an absolute

fucking genius.

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we were talking one time 12 years ago.

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somebody was asking him how, because he's a musician and he lives a breathes music and

it's his passion.

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Someone asked him because they were astonished that he was able to make a living as a

musician and how do you do it?

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He says well I'll tell you, the the first thing and most important thing, is to live

cheaply.

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He was living in Harlem at the time.

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He's like, you got to have an inexpensive apartment because that's the sacrifice right?

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I echo eric if somebody can figure that out i mean is in the in the time of a i, believe

me, i have used Chat G P T to answer that question.

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It is not worthwhile

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Then somebody must have taken the mantle of getting your show on PBS away from you and did

it themselves, yeah?

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Well, Ken is executive producing and by virtue of him executive producing, we have the

privilege of being associated with his brand, if you want to call it that.

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That's why at the beginning of all our films, it starts with Ken Burns presents.

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He also is doing this with his daughter and her company.

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And he has also done it with, Barrick.

220

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Barrick Goodman, another filmmaker.

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And for all I know, there are others that he's doing this with.

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These were kind of what they loosely call legacy projects within the Ken Burns world.

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And I think that is 1000 % a privilege.

224

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And we are able to develop relationships with WETA in Washington, the PBS affiliate that

does all of Ken's films.

225

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And it exposes us to the intricacies and the at times inherent obstacles that come along

with the territory of a broadcast partner.

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So I kind of liken everything that Ken has done for Chris and I as tough love with the

best of fatherly intents.

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Just like your own father would, it's a process we have to realize how difficult the

filmmaking world is.

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We have to realize how hard funding is.

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I think a lot of people probably assume that we've been fed on a silver platter.

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While we're definitely not at that level of having to do everything by ourselves, this has

not been an easy 20 years developing our company, developing our films.

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And honestly, my appreciation for Ken just continues to go up and up and up because he

knows that, and he knows it's hard and he does not want us to have a silver spoon in our

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mouth.

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It's a gift that you have to earn.

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So I do think that we face a lot of the same and similar obstacles that a lot of

filmmakers face.

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And it's for all the right reasons.

236

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So how to negotiate PBS?

237

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Well, it's on a case by case basis.

238

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There's no one path.

239

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We've had to stand on our own

240

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with WETA and PBS often.

241

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And we face the same challenges.

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So I think we can relate to a lot of people out there, even though in some ways here I am

a 37 year veteran of Ken almost full time.

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I think maybe a year and a half of unemployment downtime.

244

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in since 1990.

245

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uh Some could say I'm a spoiled brat in some ways.

246

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No, I'm just lucky and I'm privileged and it doesn't fall short on me that gift that Ken

and his company and Paul Barnes as the senior editor and my mentor have given me is

247

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something that I just try to take forward and do what I can to help other people.

248

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and grow other people in the same fashion.

249

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The true reward for a job well done is the opportunity to do it again.

250

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Absolutely, great, great quote.

251

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The only thing I can contribute to this conversation about this issue is my distributor,

Joe Amodei of Virgil Films Entertainment, who I adore and must thank him for supporting

252

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our podcast, did get us in with American Public Television and they were willing to take

The Girl Who Wore Freedom if I would cut it down.

253

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to 56 minutes, which I couldn't do because I had made a 89 minute film, not with the idea

of putting it on public television.

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And had I cut it down to that it would have destroyed the integrity of the film.

255

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And so I could not, within that framework,

256

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put it on American public television.

257

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So that was a hard lesson.

258

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I should have made a shorter version.

259

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No.

260

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Exactly.

261

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Also, you may want to revisit that conversation, as we're all very well aware of, like the

broadcast model is it the this this concept that the vast majority of us are still relying

262

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on broadcast television.

263

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for our content is just factually inaccurate.

264

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we have already transitioned from broadcast to streaming.

265

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true.

266

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mean, I watched your documentary.

267

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Well, I guess I watched it.

268

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I watched a streamer copy, but I mean, I watched the American Revolution on PBS

documentaries on Amazon.

269

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Yeah, and so what that means for us for creatives for projects is that of course with with

broadcast television.

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Yes, there are very strict time limits time constraints.

271

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one of our episodes for the Thoreau project Eric did cut five minutes out of it just to

fit the broadcast time slot, but

272

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the streaming version has that five minutes added back in.

273

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my wife and I love The Pit.

274

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We just watched the most recent episode last night.

275

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it just does my heart good when I go to, like, all episodes and one's 33 minutes, one's 45

minutes, one's an hour and seven minutes.

276

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It's like, you yeah, right, exactly.

277

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So we're moving away from, and so is PBS, mind you.

278

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Like, as I just mentioned,

279

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Yes, we have a shortened version for broadcasts of one of the episodes, but the full, it's

no longer the director's cut.

280

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mean, it's like you just have streaming content that can live in the cloud, in perpetuity,

at whatever length it needs to be.

281

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So again, another one of these concepts that has taken.

282

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the industry maybe a little bit of time and maybe no time at all but like one of these

concepts that we've come to embrace that it is a benefit to our creative endeavors.

283

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And I think the big difference between what you described in your experience and ours is

that, first of all, we got lucky.

284

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The arc of each episode was perfect for us.

285

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Episode one being his childhood up until he's a mid-20s kid who doesn't know what to do

with his life.

286

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So what does he do?

287

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He goes to Walden Pond and tries this big experiment living alone in nature.

288

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That's episode two.

289

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And then at the end he says, perhaps I have several other lives to live.

290

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That's episode three, the later part of his life.

291

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They all fell, the arc all fell beautifully, but A, Chris and I didn't wanna make a two

hour film per episode.

292

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I think attention spans change and I think the expectations of your audience change.

293

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So we endeavored

294

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part of our vision was to create our episodes.

295

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And I think the difference is that as I was editing, unlike yourself, I was very mindful

of length, knowing it has to be at the most 52 minutes and 45 seconds before end credits

296

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for it to fit the PBS time slot.

297

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And ultimately when we got to episode three and realized that

298

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if we cut any more out of this, we're actually cutting important content.

299

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Then in the last three months of editing, I made sure that I incorporated little latches,

if you will, where I knew I could end this scene and start the, and have a moment and then

300

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start the next one and be able to lift it out effortlessly.

301

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So I actually pre-planned while we were getting ready to lock the film, I pre-planned

those five minutes

302

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so that it would not hurt the overall arc of the story.

303

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when you have that ability, yes, and you have that ability to do it in process rather than

finish it and say, oh crap, I gotta go and take 89 minutes to 60, that would be a whole

304

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different story.

305

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All right.

306

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Well, this has been a Sunday of a conversation and now I need the cherry on top, I have to

ask you about working with these celebrity voice talent.

307

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mean, George Clooney and Jeff Goldblum and Meryl Streep.

308

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I mean, just some of my favorites.

309

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And I know there is a interesting story about Jeff Goldblum.

310

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So let's start with him.

311

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How did that happen?

312

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Yeah, I mean, this was an embarrassment of riches, I mean, like we got we couldn't talk,

you know, again, who, you know?

313

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Yeah, never, never imagined.

314

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Yeah.

315

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So, I mean, you know, we Thoreau is a very enigmatic and interesting character, you know,

and we, Eric and I, at least always were keenly interested in.

316

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Jeff as the voice for Thoreau because he himself has just such a great character and

personality and idiosyncratic nature and the way that he imbues how he speaks and the

317

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words that he uses with feeling, with meaning.

318

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We just thought he'd be perfect.

319

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Several years ago, in the commercial world, I had worked with Jeff on a spot and in

between takes, he

320

00:29:21,106 --> 00:29:25,028

This was right around the time that Ken's Country Music series had come out.

321

00:29:25,028 --> 00:29:29,960

So in between takes he's like, God, guys, has anyone seen Ken Burns' Country Music?

322

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Oh my God, it's so amazing.

323

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And know, how he goes and it goes on and on and on.

324

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And I kept my mouth shut.

325

00:29:35,893 --> 00:29:38,454

I never said anything, you know, at the time.

326

00:29:40,178 --> 00:29:44,259

cut to, we're looking for voice talent for this project.

327

00:29:44,259 --> 00:29:46,960

I was like, well, I think Goldblum could be amazing.

328

00:29:46,960 --> 00:29:49,680

And I know he's a huge Ken Burns fan.

329

00:29:50,520 --> 00:29:55,923

So threw caution to the wind reached out to his agent and, told him the story and the

backstory, whatever else.

330

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lo and behold, after a couple of emails back and forth, we get this very curt email from

his agent says, Jeff would love to do it.

331

00:30:04,067 --> 00:30:10,654

It's like, yeah, mean, you know, it's total happenstance.

332

00:30:10,654 --> 00:30:11,829

It's serendipity.

333

00:30:11,829 --> 00:30:13,562

And then the rest, know, Mr.

334

00:30:13,562 --> 00:30:15,573

Henley has lots of connections.

335

00:30:15,573 --> 00:30:18,256

He lives in LA and in Dallas.

336

00:30:18,256 --> 00:30:24,842

but he we would we would chat with him and we would brainstorm different ideas for other

people.

337

00:30:24,842 --> 00:30:29,625

And, you know, again, we're we're very lucky and very privileged.

338

00:30:29,625 --> 00:30:32,557

it's not lost on us that, you know,

339

00:30:32,557 --> 00:30:37,369

Don said, I know this agent for Jeff, but he's also for Ted Danson.

340

00:30:37,369 --> 00:30:44,232

And Ted has been a very big supporter of the Walden Woods Project and other environmental

groups.

341

00:30:44,232 --> 00:30:49,494

And it was a very easy ask and a very, very straightforward, absolutely.

342

00:30:49,494 --> 00:30:53,462

Ted and Mary called us, Chris and I, to

343

00:30:53,462 --> 00:30:56,873

talk about the project and come to find out.

344

00:30:57,074 --> 00:30:57,555

Yes.

345

00:30:57,555 --> 00:31:08,000

And you come to find out that Mary wouldn't have, this is her own words, I wouldn't have

been, probably been an actress if it wasn't for Thoreau.

346

00:31:08,000 --> 00:31:15,445

She played the role of Lidian Emerson in a play in college and she did it so well.

347

00:31:15,445 --> 00:31:17,866

It was a play on Thoreau that she

348

00:31:18,104 --> 00:31:24,580

her, you know, the department head for the theater department or something said, you need

to go to a different school.

349

00:31:24,580 --> 00:31:25,641

You're really good.

350

00:31:25,641 --> 00:31:26,381

And she did.

351

00:31:26,381 --> 00:31:33,379

m Also their son-in-law wrote his graduate thesis on Henry David Thoreau.

352

00:31:33,379 --> 00:31:39,074

So there was this like wonderful little, you know, serendipitous connection to Thoreau.

353

00:31:39,074 --> 00:31:39,885

And then

354

00:31:39,885 --> 00:31:46,309

Don was willing to reach out to Meryl Streep and he went off and succeeded in that.

355

00:31:46,309 --> 00:31:54,914

And then the best was when he called us and said, I have this great idea for a narrator,

but I'm not going to tell you, would you give me permission to explore on trust?

356

00:31:54,914 --> 00:31:57,665

And we're like, of course, of course.

357

00:31:57,665 --> 00:32:02,039

And he came back and he's like, yeah, George Clooney is willing to do it.

358

00:32:02,039 --> 00:32:06,292

And when we go to do the, two day session with George.

359

00:32:06,353 --> 00:32:08,013

George loves to chat.

360

00:32:08,013 --> 00:32:10,874

is such a, they're all wonderful gentlemen.

361

00:32:10,874 --> 00:32:12,856

And Meryl Streep is a wonderful lady.

362

00:32:12,856 --> 00:32:19,008

But he, very genuine people, but he, I said, so, you know, how, how long have you known

Don Henley?

363

00:32:19,008 --> 00:32:20,844

He's like, I don't know Don Henley.

364

00:32:20,844 --> 00:32:22,050

We're like, what?

365

00:32:22,050 --> 00:32:27,825

And he said, yeah, I got, I got a call one day and you know, and someone handed me the

phone said, would you

366

00:32:27,825 --> 00:32:29,546

speak to Don Henley of the Eagles.

367

00:32:29,546 --> 00:32:36,792

And George was like, if Don Henley calls and asks you for anything, you say yes.

368

00:32:36,792 --> 00:32:43,557

And so it was just this wonderful, know, it was Don's passion for the film.

369

00:32:43,557 --> 00:32:45,659

He wanted it to be the best it could be.

370

00:32:45,659 --> 00:32:51,339

And he, he really, like all other aspects of this project, were so indebted.

371

00:32:51,339 --> 00:32:58,445

to him and to Kathy Anderson, his executive director of Walden Woods, the two of them,

there wouldn't be a film without them.

372

00:32:58,445 --> 00:32:59,736

amazing.

373

00:32:59,777 --> 00:33:03,502

Yeah, those voices really uh elevated the story.

374

00:33:03,502 --> 00:33:05,363

same was true for American Revolution.

375

00:33:05,363 --> 00:33:08,386

Every single time they come on, I'm like, that's Tom Hanks.

376

00:33:08,386 --> 00:33:09,568

that's Meryl Streep.

377

00:33:09,568 --> 00:33:14,062

They are just are so gifted at their job.

378

00:33:14,062 --> 00:33:15,933

And it doesn't matter who they are.

379

00:33:15,933 --> 00:33:18,386

They fully inhabit the character.

380

00:33:19,843 --> 00:33:21,578

What was it like to direct them?

381

00:33:21,578 --> 00:33:25,787

do you direct them or do you just let them do their thing?

382

00:33:26,423 --> 00:33:27,246

a little of both.

383

00:33:27,246 --> 00:33:28,287

I think

384

00:33:28,538 --> 00:33:29,957

depending on who it was.

385

00:33:30,026 --> 00:33:31,646

Yeah, depending on who it was.

386

00:33:31,646 --> 00:33:32,720

was hardest to wrangle?

387

00:33:32,720 --> 00:33:34,193

I'm guessing Jeff.

388

00:33:35,539 --> 00:33:36,400

No?

389

00:33:36,496 --> 00:33:38,976

no, not at all.

390

00:33:38,976 --> 00:33:39,463

391

00:33:39,463 --> 00:33:40,293

so great about him?

392

00:33:40,293 --> 00:33:46,078

Like he'd be in the booth and you know, we're prepping the next paragraph, the next bite,

right?

393

00:33:46,078 --> 00:33:48,639

And Jeff would ask for like a little backstory.

394

00:33:48,639 --> 00:33:49,800

It's like, what do you think?

395

00:33:49,800 --> 00:33:52,581

Like what was happening in Thoreau's life and what do you think?

396

00:33:52,581 --> 00:33:56,824

And then, and you know, very Goldg blum y he'd be like, we tell him and he'd be like,

okay.

397

00:33:56,824 --> 00:33:57,165

Hmm.

398

00:33:57,165 --> 00:33:57,375

Hmm.

399

00:33:57,375 --> 00:34:00,257

And he's like, you know, got his eyes closed and he's speaking into the mic.

400

00:34:00,257 --> 00:34:01,647

I am this then.

401

00:34:02,535 --> 00:34:03,755

feeling this.

402

00:34:03,755 --> 00:34:04,555

Okay, great.

403

00:34:04,555 --> 00:34:06,635

And then he would just go and it would be perfect.

404

00:34:06,635 --> 00:34:09,095

You know, it was like, okay, well, this is easy.

405

00:34:09,235 --> 00:34:10,122

Yeah.

406

00:34:10,122 --> 00:34:11,965

Ken gave us great advice.

407

00:34:11,965 --> 00:34:20,772

I asked him about Meryl Streep and I was like, when she was Eleanor Roosevelt and I asked

him back then, I said, how do you direct Meryl Streep?

408

00:34:20,772 --> 00:34:22,773

And he goes, oh, you don't.

409

00:34:23,601 --> 00:34:26,904

He says, no, you sit back and you enjoy the ride.

410

00:34:26,904 --> 00:34:34,111

And every once in a while you make a comment, but I can personally guarantee that the

comment almost always is,

411

00:34:34,147 --> 00:34:35,067

Wow.

412

00:34:35,247 --> 00:34:35,929

my God.

413

00:34:35,929 --> 00:34:36,950

wow.

414

00:34:36,950 --> 00:34:45,674

And, I think you have to, with any kind of celebrity, you have to see where they, you

know, how, what they're comfortable doing.

415

00:34:45,674 --> 00:34:47,995

George said to us, tell me if I suck.

416

00:34:48,756 --> 00:34:49,816

And he said it that way.

417

00:34:49,816 --> 00:34:52,037

If I suck, tell me I suck.

418

00:34:52,037 --> 00:34:54,558

And, and he didn't suck.

419

00:34:54,558 --> 00:34:58,880

He was, I couldn't believe how much of a natural he was.

420

00:34:58,880 --> 00:35:01,141

We just told him what kind of style.

421

00:35:01,535 --> 00:35:04,908

gave him some examples and off he went to the races.

422

00:35:05,969 --> 00:35:07,890

Wow, that was amazing.

423

00:35:07,890 --> 00:35:14,954

Well, your directing was impeccable for all of those voice talent, I gotta say, for sure.

424

00:35:14,954 --> 00:35:18,926

Well, this was just such a delightful series to watch.

425

00:35:18,926 --> 00:35:20,097

I thank you for making it.

426

00:35:20,097 --> 00:35:24,379

This conversation has been enlightening and inspiring.

427

00:35:24,379 --> 00:35:26,250

I just have loved getting to know you.

428

00:35:26,250 --> 00:35:28,076

I know our audience will as well.

429

00:35:28,076 --> 00:35:30,260

We're gonna have to divide this into two podcasts.

430

00:35:30,260 --> 00:35:31,282

We've gone a little bit over.

431

00:35:31,282 --> 00:35:32,534

I'm gonna let you go.

432

00:35:32,534 --> 00:35:38,467

But first, we do have to do everybody's favorite segment, DocuVu Deja Vu.

433

00:35:38,943 --> 00:35:43,929

All I'm gonna do is ask you for a documentary that our audience might love.

434

00:35:43,929 --> 00:35:45,087

I'm starting with Eric.

435

00:35:45,087 --> 00:35:46,232

Come on, Eric.

436

00:35:46,236 --> 00:35:48,448

Okay, okay.

437

00:35:48,448 --> 00:35:54,003

It's more appropriate, Chris, because my answer will be very quick.

438

00:35:54,003 --> 00:35:59,517

I do love documentaries, obviously, but I also have a hard time watching documentaries

sometimes.

439

00:35:59,517 --> 00:36:10,548

So my list is very short, but the ones that stand out in my mind way back, Crumb, ah it's

Terry, is it Zwigoff I think it's...

440

00:36:10,548 --> 00:36:12,308

441

00:36:12,308 --> 00:36:25,142

it's crumb is the story of a very eccentric odd 60s cartoonist and sometimes rated nearly

rated X material, hysterical and the guy was so off the beaten path.

442

00:36:25,142 --> 00:36:28,133

was it was a fascinating character study.

443

00:36:28,133 --> 00:36:31,735

I would also say Hearts of Darkness is a given.

444

00:36:31,735 --> 00:36:34,597

The documentary behind the making of Apocalypse Now.

445

00:36:34,597 --> 00:36:38,837

Yero Dreams of Sushi is one of my favorites.

446

00:36:38,917 --> 00:36:50,217

It's a slice of life about this guy who creates some of Japan's greatest sushi and it's

like in a subway.

447

00:36:52,117 --> 00:36:53,914

It's beautiful.

448

00:36:53,914 --> 00:36:58,393

You started off by giving me the disclaimer that you wouldn't give me any and now I have

three.

449

00:36:58,393 --> 00:37:00,538

Alright, one more, Thin Blue Line.

450

00:37:01,153 --> 00:37:05,026

Barnes edited it, my mentor, um so those are mine.

451

00:37:05,026 --> 00:37:05,558

one.

452

00:37:05,558 --> 00:37:07,070

All right, Chris, you're up.

453

00:37:07,304 --> 00:37:08,519

I'm only gonna give you one.

454

00:37:08,519 --> 00:37:09,936

It's my favorite of all time.

455

00:37:09,936 --> 00:37:11,192

uh Man on wire.

456

00:37:11,192 --> 00:37:12,234

I haven't seen that one.

457

00:37:12,234 --> 00:37:13,239

Man on wire.

458

00:37:13,239 --> 00:37:14,161

Man on Wire?

459

00:37:14,161 --> 00:37:27,424

it's about Philippe, I forget his last name, he's the gentleman, the tightrope walker who

strung a cable between the World Trade Center towers 1974 and spent an hour up there just

460

00:37:27,424 --> 00:37:29,245

walking back and forth and lying down.

461

00:37:29,245 --> 00:37:32,956

I mean, it is masterful filmmaking.

462

00:37:33,217 --> 00:37:36,408

It is, it's a phenomenal.

463

00:37:36,538 --> 00:37:39,119

film, I would recommend it to anyone and everyone.

464

00:37:39,119 --> 00:37:48,179

the whole story, of course, is told after the fact, right, in remembrance.

465

00:37:49,199 --> 00:38:00,860

And even though we know that he lives and even though we know that it was a successful

coup, the manner with which sort of

466

00:38:00,860 --> 00:38:05,507

that recreated situations is handled is nothing short of perfect.

467

00:38:05,507 --> 00:38:19,049

the filmmaker's ability to imbue the visual components of the film with information is a

master class in storytelling, visual storytelling.

468

00:38:19,049 --> 00:38:20,437

It is

469

00:38:20,437 --> 00:38:22,065

sweating just thinking about it.

470

00:38:22,065 --> 00:38:23,951

It's making me so nervous.

471

00:38:24,584 --> 00:38:31,844

of the most beautiful and well-made and most interesting documentaries that I have ever

seen.

472

00:38:31,922 --> 00:38:34,234

gracious, that is a huge recommendation.

473

00:38:34,234 --> 00:38:35,996

Well, I'm just gonna leave you with Buy Now.

474

00:38:35,996 --> 00:38:37,467

I think you need the information.

475

00:38:37,467 --> 00:38:41,801

I don't think it's a stellar documentary, but I think the information is what everybody

needs.

476

00:38:41,801 --> 00:38:43,965

So, all right, gentlemen, thank you so much.

477

00:38:43,965 --> 00:38:45,054

This has been amazing.

478

00:38:45,054 --> 00:38:47,467

I can't wait to have you back for your next documentary.

479

00:38:47,467 --> 00:38:49,018

Is there one in the works?

480

00:38:49,578 --> 00:38:50,458

Several.

481

00:38:50,703 --> 00:38:53,447

Yes, you need to listen.

482

00:38:53,978 --> 00:38:55,346

Glad to hear it.

483

00:38:55,604 --> 00:38:56,953

We just need funding.

484

00:38:57,058 --> 00:38:59,561

Yeah, join the club.

485

00:39:00,644 --> 00:39:01,545

All right, everybody.

486

00:39:01,545 --> 00:39:07,815

Thank you so much for listening to Documentary First, where we believe everybody has a

story to tell and you can be the one to tell it.

487

00:39:07,815 --> 00:39:10,159

All you gotta do is get some money.

488

00:39:10,159 --> 00:39:11,361

All right, see you next time.

489

00:39:11,361 --> 00:39:12,662

Bye, everybody.