Hi, Nico Kennedy. Welcome back to the QVC podcast.

Thank you, Meredith. It's great to be here.

It's so nice to have you again. And for those of

you who are newer, I highly recommend going back

and finding my other interviews with Nico. But

because for this one we're going to cover some

more experiential territory. But before we get

into that, I do want to just do a little overview

of your focus area in terms of the research and

the work that you do and your substack. Brighter

Days, Darker Nights. Everyone should be

subscribing. Tell us a little bit about that.

Yeah, sure. I am really interested in, like,

health from the very beginning of life and

helping to optimize. And so it's kind of like a,

all of this circadian and quantum health, the,

the newborn period and to, you know, my

background is as a doula and so supporting mother

baby bonding, supporting the childbirth

experience, supporting postpartum experiences,

understanding infant development. I, when I got

into circadian health, eventually I realized it

was like a big light bulb moment. Whoa. There's a

lot going on here. Our circadian rhythms are

first programmed in early life and that can kind

of carry through for the rest of life. And then

it has expanded out because I'm very curious. And

so where I was really focused just on mamas and

babies, I've also learned like at puberty, at

menopause, in old age, there are also just stages

of life where our circadian health is very

different based on what our biology is like

trying to optimize for in those phases of life.

So I kind of am like, developmental circadian

biology.

We're gonna have to talk about that.

Absolutely. It's super cute because you always

hear like, oh, babies are just like little

grandma and Grandp when they're born with their

wrinkly little faces. And turns out, like,

grandma and grandpa don't really produce much

pineal melatonin. Little babies also don't

produce much pineal melatonin. And so in some

ways their circadian needs are very similar in

terms of really being attuned to light and social

cues. Unless the darkness and need for darkness

isn't as great in those stages because for the

old people, their pineal glands are often

calcified, so they're not going to produce pineal

melatonin. It is still important. There are, you

know, like I said, like, we could do a whole

podcast on that. Today we're getting together to

more talk about like day to day realities and all

of that. But yeah, fascinating stuff. And if You.

For those who are listening that are interested

and want to jump into that, like, my substack is

huge. There's. I'm getting close to like 300

posts in the archive there of just like all of

this nerdy stuff. I always have tons of citations

in my work.

Eco stuff for those listening who haven't been,

is like very, very deeply researched. So if you

hear her mention anything on here and you're

like, wait, what? I want to know more. Like,

there is more. She has definitely written on it.

So I just want to cover this a little bit. So

there's the newborn phase, puberty, menopause.

Yeah, Old age.

Our circadian rhythm rhythms change during each

of those periods. How so?

Yeah, yeah, they're different based on what's

happening with our hormones. So, you know,

newborn babies, the first six weeks of life, they

don't really produce much melatonin at all. They

get it from mom's breast milk. And then they do

start producing melatonin, producing more and

more. And melatonin climbs all the way through

childhood. Puberty happens at the point where

melatonin starts to fall. And then melatonin

declines across, across the lifespan, basically.

And then we see like, menopause tends to hit at a

particular phase when melatonin reaches a low

threshold. So you always hear about like, you

know, the, the female sex hormones is that it's

when those fizzle out. But actually melatonin is

also a sex hormone. Um, so you also see melatonin

falling and really amazing clinical trials with

melatonin supplementation at that stage, which,

you know, there's a lot you can do to boost your

endogenous melatonin as well. So we kind of

extrapolate from the research back and forth

because it's, you know, the research field is

kind of still catching up with the understandings

that we have in the world of quantum biology

where we're oftentimes like cross piecing

interdisciplinary research. So I think we'll see

a lot more with that going on. And then dementia

and arsenality hits when melatonin basically

becomes like negligible. Which is why I say like

the old folks are again, kind of like the newborn

babies. So it's like this graph where it like

goes up and then at puberty is the peak, where it

then like declines. So this whole full slope. And

then there are other things that happen with

cortisol and sex hormones and all of that kind of

thing. Women, women have like a monthly ride that

they go on where sleep is often more disturbed in

the Luteal phase. So yeah, there's all kinds of

things with circadian health. But the really, you

know, cool thing about all of the complexity is

it always boils down to like, the prescription is

always the same, which is to retune your

environment back to nature. Nature is the gold

standard. Nature takes care of everyone's

circadian health at the same time. So that's,

that's where it's, you know, nice and holistic.

And all of this is fascinating and can help

understand like, oh, why does grandpa always wake

up at 4 in the morning? Like why is my baby also

always up at 4 in the morning? And those kinds of

things. So it can explain differences in

behavior, but the prescription is always like the

environment and needs to support strong and

stable circadian rhythms.

Okay, so, because that was my next question. So

it's like the practical application is the same.

It's just supporting us at different stages.

Right.

We really need our adolescent children to be away

from that blue light or blocking that blue light

at night because this is the time in their life

where they're supposed to, supposed to be

producing it. Melatonin in abundance.

Yes, absolutely. Yep. It's really important.

Melatonin is a hormone. Melatonin is an

antioxidant. Like melatonin does so many things

for the body's health. So yeah, absolutely. We

really want those puberty years and childhood

years. Yeah, ideally. And you know, really all

the times, and that's what's so nice, is that

it's never too late to start. Except for in the

sense of behaviorally, it's much easier. I work

with families in my one to one work or

practitioners who are supporting families are

like the main people that I work with. And so

moms always report like, I wish I would have had

this sooner. Because it's a lot harder to onboard

a teenager to circadian lifestyle choices

compared with the moms who get this earlier on.

It is easier to raise someone up within it and

then they can. Like my children for example. Like

I was blessed to start playing around with this

when I was pregnant with my first child almost 13

years ago. So she's now approaching the teen

years and she can look out and be like, wow, the

kids you have video games. I feel sorry for them.

And you know, so there are things where in some

ways like people get more and more set in their

habits. So like the, the coaching aspect of it is

more difficult in later stages if you haven't

like started it early on. But our circadian

health is always flexible. Like there's you can

find so many studies for that dementia, senility

issue, even for the people who are, like, way at

the end of life and finding benefit for them

getting into circadian strengthening practices.

So, yeah, I love working in this field because

it's so effective and, you know, we can

oftentimes, within like, two days, start to

really feel a difference. I. I talk with. I was

just talking with a woman recently, too, that has

children that are teenagers that are. This is

actually a pretty common story where the parents

have divorced, and so one home is circadian and

the other home isn't.

Right.

And so then she's like, every time they come

home, it's a whole reset.

Yeah.

And. Or, like, you know, sleepovers or whatever.

And, like, you know, could I get them to, like,

bring blue blockers over there? Would that be

weird? Would.

Yeah, she's like, six months away from being

like, pack your blue blockers, put them on. I

don't care.

Yeah, exactly. We. Yeah, we do notice. And so,

yeah, all of. All of the, you know, you know,

moms are especially on it. Sometimes it's the

dads, though. Sometimes it's the dads that are

totally, like, the circadian health champion. And

I think that the dads usually take a little bit

more of a proactive approach with the older

children, whereas the moms, I think, still

sometimes are, like, giving older children more

autonomy at that stage of life. Just kind of like

a general trend that's obviously not true for all

families. But in the earlier stages, it's often

the moms who are, like, you know, very much like,

packing the bags to go to the park and all that

kind of thing. So, yeah, teamwork. Teamwork.

Circadian community.

Yeah. And just. Yeah, just having people with

even, like, a slight familiarity with it, you

know, and it's. Things are really changing. Okay,

so. Okay, so it's. Adolescence is super important

now when we're talking about menopause and old

age, when our melatonin decreases. Are you, you

know, is it your view that there is a place for

exogenous supplementation during those. Those

times of life? Or should we do. Or is it more

like doubling down on in our darkness?

Yeah, that's a great. Yeah, great. Great

question. And so that's where I teach, I guess,

six, five or six sources of melatonin that we

have access to. So for me, I'm always working

with the endogenous. I am, you know, like, as a

doula, which is, you know, a form of being a

health coach. I'm not prescriptive So I always

recommend people to work with a practitioner if

they're going to supplement with melatonin,

because for one, melatonin supplements on the

market have been proven to be like wildly

inaccurate in terms of like what the stated dose

on the bottle is versus what actually it is. And

also to have a lot of contaminants and things. So

I'm like, you really should work with a

practitioner who's familiar with melatonin and is

confident in their source of melatonin and can

work with the melatonin in addition to any other

treatments he may be having. And there are some

acute situations where we absolutely. I would

never like a mom with preeclampsia, a mom who's

having her labor augmented with pitocin, a baby

who's in the NICU and can't breastfeed. Like

these are three that I encounter pretty often

where like in those cases we absolutely. For that

acute situation, it's probably worth working with

someone who can get that supplemental melatonin

for a long term thing like menopause lasts many

years. In that case, I'm a lot more likely to

want to lean harder on the body's own ability to

make melatonin. And so that's several ways. Like

there is the pineal melatonin you were mentioning

that comes out in the darkness, but we also have

the mitochondrial melatonin which comes out any

time of day, especially when mitochondria are

really happy and healthy and getting infrared

light signals. So yeah, I talk with people about

like optimizing their thermostat is like one of

the really low hanging fruit to like let your

days be warmer.

As much time outside as possible, even in the

shade, even when it's cloudy, because that

infrared light is getting us. Yeah, the daytime

kind of melatonin.

Exactly.

At night, because then we're getting. Releasing

the nighttime melatonin.

Right.

And then so lowering the temperature, is that

what you're saying?

Lowering the temperature at night and having a

warmer daytime. So even for people that are

living inside, it's like your daytime thermostat.

A lot of people keep it low for energy

efficiency, but like really like 72 to 76 degrees

Fahrenheit is where like optimal human

productivity hits. And most of us are, you know,

you see people doing red light therapies and all

kinds of things because we're all kind of heat

deprived for various reasons. And then the

nighttime sometimes might require like a air

conditioner or something, which also is less

energy efficient. That's one of the areas that we

bump into a lot when it comes to like building

design is that we are constantly trying to

optimize for energy efficiency, for cost savings

and pollution and all of these things that we're

concerned about. But creating a static, thermal,

highly efficient light is kind of like making us

these weird moon. Think of it as like being like

moon beings. It's kind of like just being under

like the full moon and it's like kind of cold and

kind of white light and kind of everyone's just

like kind of like weird and not really sure if

they're like super alert in a way.

I forget his name. He's like going to like live

forever. He look, he's literally like translucent

glow. He looks like a moon. Totally a moon guy. I

see what you mean.

Yeah, yeah.

So, okay, so we want to be away from that. So, so

it's summer, we have, we have the AC on, but in

the daytime we want to keep it up around 74 and

then we go to bed. We want to put it down lower.

We want to be mindful that there's a fluctuation

in temperature between the day and the night.

With the night being warmer, the night being

cold, the day being warmer. Okay.

Yeah, exactly. So that's just another form of.

Supports our melatonin.

Yep. And that's to support our melatonin. Yeah.

And so we know like, you know, women, one of the

side effects of menopause can be like the hot

flashes. And it can, you know, they can be more

sensitive to those thermal changes. And when it

comes with like. Yeah, I mean we just have so

much advice, same thing. You know, like I go, I

tend to default back because most of my work is

with mamas and babies. And so, you know, they

always tell baby like you have to have like a 70

degree room for your baby to sleep in with no

blankets and whatever. And meanwhile like for all

of history we were co sleeping and like the

temperature regulation would happen on with mom

and the temperature outside would actually be

rising and falling. And so the temperature rhythm

is usually the first to emerge in a newborn baby.

So at first they're like round the clock. And

then the first thing that happens is their body

starts being cooler in the night and warmer in

the day. And that's just like a really

fundamental circadian health pattern. And I like

to bring it up because across all stages of life

that thermal pattern is just a really important

piece. And if we are spending time outside, we

naturally get it. But when we're spending so much

of our time indoors, we don't always get that.

So, yeah, you can see, like, I'm out here in my

gazebo and it's lovely springtime weather. And

you've also seen me out here bundled up in my,

you know, sweatshirts and hoodies with a wool

blanket on my lap. Different crazy things that

I'm doing to keep myself, like, more enmeshed in

nature and, you know, have done huge amount of

work in my life to. From, like, living, you know,

me, my husband, our one child living in, you

know, a little apartment in the city. And it's

great because we can walk to the park and we can

walk to the grocery and, like, everything is,

like, you know, really set up and nice and tight

and convenient. And then eventually, you know,

like, I was having a lot of immune system

dysregulation at that time. Really, really bad

seasonal allergies, really, really bad skin

reactions, and resetting my circadian rhythms was

what. Actually, I didn't even notice right away

because I was doing it kind of like more on a

whim, but putting, like, the red light filter on

my computer and different things like that. It

was like, wow, that was a really mild allergy

year. That's great. And then the next year rolled

by, like, wow, another just, like, allergies.

Like, do I even have them anymore?

Right?

And it wasn't. I was like, I wasn't like, I'm

going to use circadian health to cure my allergic

contact dermatitis and seasonal allergies. But,

like, you know, two and three years down the

road, I look back and like, wow, I haven't had a

flare since I got my, you know, light

environment, right? And it took a long time to,

like, get out here where I'm living now, where

there's woods, there's space for the kids,

they're no longer in school, we're homeschooling.

And I. I've been entirely remote since 2014. And

so sometimes people are like, oh, you're so

lucky. I could never. And it's like, well, if you

would have asked me in 2013, I might have said

the same thing. But, like, by making. By setting

my intention and working really, really hard,

making certain sacrifices, like, over the years,

like, we gradually improve and get closer and

closer to our ideal lifestyle where we're raising

our kids. We have plenty of time to spend with

them. They have plenty of connection with nature.

And all of these things that, you know, I just

know in my being are so important because I felt

the difference between being sick all the time,

basically, or, like, you know, A significant

amount of the year versus, you know, actually

being able to enjoy springtime blossoms and not

see that as a time of year of, like, dread of

like, suffering. Yeah, yeah.

And that's such a good point too, that. Yeah.

This is like a gradual, lifelong practice.

Yeah.

So there are certain things we could, you know,

if we're able to implement them right away, like,

amazing. But then what I find oftentimes is once

you implement some of the key basic things, you

start to notice, you know, you make decisions

that you could be making differently that you

wouldn't even have thought of before you've done

the other thing. So just like, allowing it to

unfold over time.

Mm.

And allowing your lifestyle to adjust to the

practice and the practice to adjust to you. And

there's no, like, one way to do it. There are

basic things we all need to do. Artificial light

at night, getting outside during the day. But how

we do that is really, you know, can be very

individualized and can change and improve over

time.

Yeah, yeah. And is very, very determined by the

environment you're in. Because, like, when I was,

you know, living over a busy intersection, it was

like blackout curtains all the way at night.

Right. And now I, like, have skylights and I'm

like, watching the moon and being up in the

middle of the night. And like this, you know,

like, alternating, like, somewhat polyphasic

sleep thing. That was one of the other topics

that sometimes people don't realize. Like, when

you get really deep into it, you start uncovering

all these things about biology that we just

didn't know about, like being able to enjoy the

light of the full moon rather than feeling as a

time of dread. And again, that's something that,

like, when I had a really, really strict

schedule, there's no way that I could have felt

okay about being awake for a couple of hours to

enjoy the moonlight and, you know, some time with

my spouse while the kids are all quiet and slee

sleeping. You know, that would have been really

stressful. I mean, I remember when it was

stressful because I knew my alarm was going off

at 4 00:26:20

45 in the morning or, you know, sometimes

at 4 00:26:22

even earlier. Right. And so, like, when you know

at 4 00:26:27

that your alarm's coming at a particular time and

at 4 00:26:29

you're awake in the middle of the night, like,

at 4 00:26:31

that's so stressful. But when you're totally in

at 4 00:26:35

tune. And again, this is more for, like, I live

at 4 00:26:38

in a temperate climate, so like, my sleep tends

at 4 00:26:40

to shift more. Whereas people who live like,

at 4 00:26:44

closer to the equator, like, the light is a lot

at 4 00:26:47

more Consistent around the year. And so we don't

at 4 00:26:49

have those long dark nights of winter where we're

at 4 00:26:52

going to be awake.

That there's. That it's somewhat normal to have

periods of wakefulness in the middle of the night

during certain times of the month.

During certain times of the month.

The moon based on.

In the season and the seasons. Yeah. So basically

whenever nighttime darkness passes 14 hours. So I

get a lot of people who live, you know, like I

live at 40 something degrees and higher, you

know, 40, 50, 60 degrees latitude, then we get

that where a significant amount of the year we

have this 14 hours of darkness. And this was

discovered by the same lab that eventually put

out the idea of using seasonal, of using like the

SAD lamps for seasonal affective disorder is

they're like, oh, light controls sleep timing.

And so if there's more than 14 hours of this

really dim environment, people will naturally

shift into a polyphasic sleep pattern which is

actually just like what the animals. And like

there was a really amazing study that just came

out this year that's one of the most

comprehensive sleep studies that's ever been done

on people living in non industrial societies

versus industrial. And so it's really interesting

that we have this idea of 8 hours of sleep as

being the norm and like beneficial. And these old

sleep researchers and what they see happening in

societies that don't live this, you know, modern

technological way is that that's not actually a

human normal, that's the, it's an artifact of 16

hours of artificial light. So that was a total

like mind blowing moment for me as a mom because

I have worked with so many moms who are like

trying to care for their babies around the clock,

but they're like, I was in bed for 10 hours,

like, why do I feel so tired still? It's like

they're getting woken up over and over. And so if

you just allow yourself more time in bed and a

more gentle. So oftentimes it's more like six

hours of sleep with a 20 minute to two hour nap

at a different time of day. So if it's like if

you have 16 hours of darkness in the winter, you

might sleep for four hours, wake up for like two,

two hours, go to sleep for another four hours and

then get up. So that middle of the night waking

is really stressful for people because they're

like, my circadian health was so good, why am I

not sleeping eight hours? Well, because your

environment, circadian health is so good.

Exactly. And then it's especially back to your.

Ancestral way of sleeping.

Yep, exactly. So yeah, usually like one like four

to six hour block that overlaps. The natural

darkness is like a stable necessity across all of

human time.

Okay. And then so yeah, it's not like you need

eight. So eight hours in a row is not the gold

standard. The gold standard is four to six in a

row while it's dark outside.

Yes. Yeah, absolutely. And then the other part as

needed. Yep, exactly. And the nap kind of shifts

like we all know about like the siesta. Right.

And so like in the summertime you have this

endless long day. And so it can like in the above

the Arctic Circle, traditionally it was like four

hours of sleep about midnight, four hours of

sleep around noon, like a totally biphasic sleep

pattern. And then like, you know, areas that have

the siesta, it's a little bit more temperate of a

climate. So it's like you have your main sleep

and then you have a shorter sleep in the heat,

you know, through the heat of the day and the

shade and then like going on and you don't even

ness in that second sleep. Depending on the time

of year, sometimes you're just like closing your

eyes for 20 minutes and it's just kind of like a

gentle drift and then you just drift back in and

you go. It's not always like a full, full blown

nap. Right. But that just having more flexibility

with that, like it doesn't really fit with like a

schedule of a 9 to 5. And you were talking about

puberty and like when I was growing up, I went to

public school and lived in a remote area where

the bus ride was over an hour. So it was like

catching the bus at 6:20 in the morning. And so

it was like alarms at 5 through my puberty years.

And those were the only years that I ever had

insomnia. And I'm like, you know, looking back

and like all of the stress and like thinking

about the lighting that we had and the sports and

like working out like right before bed and all of

these things that, right. I was doing like trying

to be healthy, trying to be good, trying to like

have a straight A student doing the

extracurriculars and you know, like immediately

waking on, flipping on those bright lights and

you know, being up at those times. And it's just

so stressful to the circadian rhythm. And a lot

of people just think of the circadian rhythm as

being like, I do the same thing every day. So

that's one of the other things that I'm always

like, sleep is an effect of the circadian rhythm.

It doesn't cause the circadian rhythm. It's. And

keeping the same exact schedule day to day

doesn't necessarily mean that you have, you could

have a stable circadian rhythm, but it doesn't

necessarily mean that it's a strong circadian

rhythm. So kind of making those differentiations.

And obviously I've gone really far in order to

allow myself and my family a very, very flexible

circadian environment that like, like I said, if

you would have asked me in like 2013, like this

would not have been possible. Like my, like I

said, my alarm was set for 4, 24, 30 in the

morning because I was working east coast from PA

that I could wake up before my daughter, daughter

get my work done, take, you know, my lunch break

would be getting her around, getting her up for

breakfast and all of that. Right. And like just

my life was very different then. So I completely

understand for the people who are like, no way, I

could never do that. Like, you know, there's no

way that I could be that flexible. There's no way

that I can nap. Same thing. Like moms who have

two toddlers, it's really difficult for them to

nap my life because of not putting my older kids

in school. They're like a whole pack, right? So

if there's a 13 year old around and my husband

can also work from home when he does have events,

they're, you know, we deal with that. But they're

usually evening because he's a musician, which is

another one. Like musicians get such a bad rap in

the world. You know, people who are circadian

savvy are always like, oh, musicians have the

worst circadian rhythm because they're always out

at night. And so like the things that we've done

to, to figure out that like if he has a night

gig, we're gonna make priority. Like my husband's

gonna have a nap in the afternoon to prepare for

the sleep disruption he's gonna get at night. And

then like figuring out the commute times of

everything so that he does get a period of sleep.

It overlaps the darkness. Even if he is, you

know, playing until two in the morning. Right. So

he has the nap before.

This is like a really important point because we,

you know, we're used to doing this level of

planning around eating, right? It's like going on

a trip or taking our children. We need to, we

account for the meal times. We account, okay,

well how we're going to feed and be like, okay,

well we can do like do a restaurant or some fast

food, but no more than, you know, we did a day of

that. Like, we have to get somewhere we can cook

and, you know, like, we think about. And it's not

a big deal that, of course, you plan around food.

And what I hear that your family has done is to

do that same thing with light and circadian

rhythm and to take it. Take that into account and

make it just as an important A factor.

Right. Yes, absolutely. Yeah. Keeping the

environment there, keeping the schedule there.

Yeah. And like you said, food, like, that's a

really big, important cue. Yeah. For the

circadian rhythm. So regular meal times is really

important. I would maybe argue even more

important than the regular sleep times. Just the

way the digestive system works. Yeah. So having

that.

So having. Having breakfast within what, like a

certain period of time upon waking and.

Yeah, before.

Okay, so tell us what your optimal would be.

Yeah, again, it's. There's flexibility, but,

like, optimal flexibility in all things. Yeah.

Getting that savory, like, shifting to a savory

breakfast. And something I always talk about,

too, is, like, that I do find that there is a

significant component of heat and warm food

because a lot of people like to have a cold

breakfast because it's convenient. And I totally

understand. And so sometimes we will do like a

first breakfast, second breakfast kind of thing

just based on the way the day needs to flow. But

as a rule, I really like to get at least one

solid warm meal in the morning for getting the

full, like, you know, belly weight and like, just

the warmth of nourishment. So this is a lot of my

work in exploring polyphasic circadian is through

work that was actually done by the Navy. And so I

think we talked a little bit about this before,

but the Navy has an incredible amount of control

over their sailors, and so they've been able to

do some incredible research. They also had some

horrible tragedies based on sailors being really

sleep deprived. And so they had really strong

need to figure out circadian health because the

ship has to operate around the clock.

Right. So that's where research that came out. I

forget sometime in the past five to 10 years that

shows sleep deprivation was, like, at the state,

you might as well be drunk.

Yep, exactly.

If you're driving or operating something

important like a ship.

Yes, exactly. So I always think about this, too,

in terms of, like, our ERs.

Yeah, yeah.

Sure.

If you get him on hours, 16 of his shift.

Yeah, exactly.

Basically had nine margaritas.

Yeah, so.

Okay, maybe not exactly, but.

Yeah, exactly. Yeah. So, yeah, so that's where I

learned about the it's really important to have,

like, they want to get their sailors to have

their at least one of those solid sleepover

windows overlapping the natural darkness. That's

where I found that from. And have tested and

experimented with it and found that, yes, that is

really true. You know, some people will say,

like, an hour of sleep before midnight is worth

more than two hours afterwards. Or, like,

different little, like, aphorisms you might have

heard around this idea. Because lots of people,

like, it's just the thing about circadian health

is, like, it's so obvious. So, like, at first

it's really counterintuitive. And you're like,

okay, I'm gonna try this. We're like, okay,

we've, like, went outside, we watched sunrise,

and we turned off all the lights. Like, what's

this like? And we're, like, sitting there by

candlelight and like, oh, this is really dark,

but it's kind of atmospheric. And pretty soon,

like, the kids are, like, all drowsy and sleepy

and, like, ready to sing a song and go to sleep.

And then eventually, like, you know, everyone

gets on board, and then you start pouring into

others. Like, a moment when a lot of families

reach out and they're super proud. They're like,

hey, I feel so cool. I just got red light tape

and put it over my refrigerators and my fans and

my VC or, you know, whatever appliances, and it's

like a milestone moment.

Crossed the Rubicon when you put red tape over

the light in your fridge. I was FaceTiming with

someone recently, and.

I was walking around.

It was a friend. It was so. It was casual. And I

opened the fridge while we were talking, and she

was like, what is that? Oh, the red electrical

tape over the light. She's like, you really take

this seriously, don't you? I'm like, yeah, I

really do.

Yes. And once you feel it, like, you just

understand it, and it's so visceral, like, for

people who are, you know, health coaches or

practitioners listening to this, like, it's

really cool because the, like, adoption rate and

people actually sticking through with this is,

like, so high compared with, like, I don't know,

like, exercise or diet. You know what I mean?

The circadian rhythm. Habit changes.

Yes.

Yeah, exactly. You know, that's. I mean, my

experience is all anecdotal. I haven't tracked

it, but it. That seems. That feels very true.

It's like, once people experience what it's like

to go to sleep and wake up in a circadian

optimized, like, there is no going back because

it's so. It is relatively easy compared to

anything else. And yeah, it's just like, oh,

yeah, I could feel like this in the morning.

Wake up without the sandman, without a headache,

really, because, yeah, I remember when I thought

it was just normal, like, oh, morning suck.

Yeah, same for years. And then, like, I forced

myself out of it because I'm like, I don't want

my children to grow up thinking that mommy is

terrible in the morning and that mornings are

terrible. Like, that's not. That's not a legacy

I'd like to leave. So I forced myself out of it.

Yeah.

But it wasn't until the circadian rhythm stuff

that I was like, oh, I just naturally happy in

the morning. Now I'm not talking. I don't want to

super engage with anyone the first 30 to 40

minutes, but I'm not grumpy.

Yeah, it's a big difference.

A big difference.

Yeah. So I love that too. That was during the. I

haven't done very much school with my kids

because it's never been something that just

worked out. But my oldest, I did try school

several times, and that was one of the big

hurdles for me is that she was not happy with

getting woken up at the same time every day. And

it just felt so right.

You mean sending her to school versus homeschool?

Yeah, exactly. Like, with homeschool, I can match

her activities and responsibilities with her

energy level that day. And when it was school, it

was like, if it's Math day, it's Math Day, and it

happens at this time.

My son has AP chemistry at. At 7:50am and I'm

like, you know, sorry about that.

Yeah, exactly. And I remember what that was like.

And when I was in the, like, flow of it, it was

like a challenge. I was like, okay. You know,

like, every day just felt like a race. And it was

like, okay. And I was working hard and, you know,

I was satisfied. It was. It was fine for that

time. But it's not like, once I became a mom and

saw like, the challenge, and I'm talking about,

like, kindergarten. Right. This is when I was

going through this and being like, oh, it is. You

know, it is 7am and we have to get to school by

8:30, I really better wake her up. And she really

doesn't want to. And she really doesn't want to

eat breakfast because I just woke her up and I

didn't, you know, I hadn't, like, taken her out

to the sun yet. It was like, straight from, like,

bedroom, bathroom, kitchen table for breakfast.

And like, have seen and talked with so many

parents too, where they're like, how do you get

your kids to eat breakfast? They're just like,

you know, so groggy. So, you know, and it's just

amazing, like when you get into a little, you

know, for me, I am doing this very flexible thing

with them. And so they, you know, generally are

pretty excited about whatever thing they're going

to do because it's just like in time. And so it's

more like we, you know, math time still comes

around. It's not like it doesn't, but it's not

like I'm like, yep, every, you know, Every

Tuesday at 8:45am she's going to be totally fed

and happy and ready to digest some new math

skills.

Yeah.

And so, yeah, for lots of people they'd be like,

no, that's way too impractical. I can't handle

that, you know, level of upheaval and everything.

And I, you know, totally understand that. So I do

tailor, we talk or how do we say, sometimes like

titrate, titrate the information. Right. So I'm

not like telling people who are just getting into

this who like are, you know, maybe they're just

going to dim their evening lights and that's

going to help them all sleep a little bit better

and have a better time with that 7am breakfast,

out to school and work and everything. And that's

fine. Like, it's not like you have to go all the

way into it. You can, you know, use light. Like

we were talking about the seasonal affective

disorder and using the light. So like, you know,

we can use artificial light and the artificial

thermostat. It's not like I don't use heat in my

house to be like totally primal with nature.

Right. We still like our creature comforts and so

finding the right balance and that's like, you

know, just kind of like step by step trying out

different things and feeling how all the pieces

fit together and you know, the different seasons

of life and all of that works. And then one of

the other things that I was hoping we'd have a

chance to talk about today is like, how do we as

circadian savvy people then choose to work on the

computer?

Yes, yes, that's, that's a big one. And yeah,

let's talk about it. I also want to say, because

I can feel people worried about my son. He goes

outside when he wakes up, then he eats a nice

protein breakfast and then he has like a 20

minute walk to school.

Oh, perfect.

During rain we drive him. But so I'm like, is

your brain awake by the time you get there? He's

like, yeah, mostly we do. Yeah, you know, do you

know we do do our best because you have totally

changed your life and doing like homeschooling

and living in a rural area, which is amazing. And

I love hearing how you have done that and how you

plan your day and how you plan your life. And

then I, I'm more in like closer to the quote

unquote normal, normal type of thing. My kids are

in public school. We, you know, we moved after

we'd been steeped in this. So we were like

purposely chose a house that was outside of the

middle of town and close to a forest preserve so

we can have our outdoor time and. Or not near a

whole bunch of other neighbors and things. But

yeah, I mean as we were saying, we all make our,

make our choices and do our best. That being

said, we also work on our computers all day long.

Yeah. So it's like the double whammy of light,

light pollution, EMF and being sedentary are like

the really big circadian health challenges there.

So yeah, I've been doing it for a long time and

have had phases where it has been absolutely

terrible. Like I said, kind of like that

catalyzing moment where I like got the red screen

filter that would automatically start blocking

blue light at sunset on my screen. And that was a

huge game changing moment where I suddenly was

not feeling as motivated was how I first

perceived it. Because with these lights it gives

us a cortisol boost. And when you stay up past a

certain level your body like squeezes itself so

it gives you that adrenal adrenaline kind of

boost which is actually kind of addicting. So

when I first got my, actually when my husband

first installed the red light automatic filter on

my computer and I lost the motivation that I had

for like that end of work surge because like I

said like at that time like I was a new mom. I

was going to school full time online and had a

full time online job. So it was really actually

super disruptive. But it ended up being in a good

way. But like I said, it was like.

My life is set up where I have to be productive

on my computer at night. And now with these

optimized environments, my fatigue is real, I'm

tired, can't work.

Exactly. So I found that I had to drop to part

time school and like for people that know me,

they know that I do a good job at whatever I do

and so concur.

And.

I'm, I'm not trying to brag, I'm just like, I

have, like I have.

To do things hardwired to over deliver and that's

just how they are.

So. Yeah. And I had my baby before I had finished

my degree. And so this is something many people

may not know about me, but I actually dropped out

of college four times before I finished. And so

this was one of those times where I was like,

well, I'm gonna have to pull back from this for

now and put it off. Like, I really wanted to have

that finality and finish and move into the next

stage of my career. And it took me a lot longer

than I wanted to in terms of like those

sacrifices that I had to make to get where I am

now. So one of the, this is amazing.

Though because most of the time people at that

age, I don't know exactly how, how old you are at

this time, but probably in your twenties. Right

Though that is a time where most of us will

sacrifice everything health related for.

Yeah.

For those external factors, for career ambitions

and all of the things. I certainly did. I do

believe we're starting to pay the price. Earlier,

like I went into mitochondrial dysfunction in my

30s, so there you go. But I'm so interested in

the fact that you were. That you made the choice

to prioritize your health and well being.

And to.

Delay these goals, not let them go, just put them

on a timeline that was going to work for your

biology.

Exactly. Yeah. So I did eventually finish my

degree. So, you know, that was great. It just

took longer than I thought and I was able to do

it.

In a way that was that because you are, you are

hardworking, you are ambitious, you do like to

get things done and do them properly. How did you

get to the point where you're like, you know what

I am, I'm going to slow this down, I'm going to

slow my roll on this.

Yeah, well, part of it is like I said that, that

wanting to deliver. And so to me, and you know, I

have peers and colleagues and people I really

care about and they were totally fine. And what

was the saying back then, D's get degrees.

I, I know, I know it is. C's to get degrees. I

think D's is really okay, but okay.

Right.

They're like, whatever, you just do what.

You have to do. And that just couldn't sit. I

just, I just couldn't do that. So I had to, you

know, fully disengage and then reengage. When I

did have the energy for it. And that's something

that I've found, you know, also fits with kind of

maybe how I've ended up in this very extreme end

of like wintertime polyphasic. So sleep being

something that is like, good for me because I'm

like, if the moon's up and it's beautiful and

it's like crisp and frosty and the stars are

sparkly and my fire is crackling and my husband

also happens to be awake, like, we're gonna get

up and have some fun right now and like hang out

together. And like, all the kids are sleeping.

This is absolutely great. And if it means that

6am is gonna roll around and I'm still gonna

sleep, that fits with my energetic flow. And so I

think similarly with that, you know, decision at

that time to pull back from my college, keep the

work because I needed the work. But eventually I

did quit that job too. The east coast from

Pacific 1 and move into freelancing, where I was

able to control my schedule. Those things happen

pretty quickly. So I was like, okay, nighttime

night school's not working. That's when I'm

waking up at 4 in the morning and I can't give up

before in the morning. So I'm gonna quit the

night school for now, pick it up later. And then

I was like, okay, I definitely can figure out

this freelancing thing to have a job where I can

work on my own time. And so fairly quickly, like

the first month, I think, or the first year, I

remember like mapping it out. Like, the first

year, I earned like $5,000 less than I had the

year that I'd had that job. So it was kind of a

loss. But then the next year, I earned like twice

as much as I'd had with that job. So it was like

the short term loss was more than made up for in

the long term, like taking control of my schedule

and taking control of my work life. And that was

when I was like, you know, from then on I've been

like, fairly entrepreneurial, doing various

things online to figure out how to not have

someone saying that they want me to show up at

5:25am for a meeting, you know, so then once all

of that was like rolling and I felt like I had a

consistent freelancing business. Then at that

point, I went back to school part time. Right. So

it's just kind of like for me learning to tune

in, to follow my energetic flow and like, know

when I have energy to like, push. Like right now

I'm in my third trimester. Of pregnancy. I've

been through like my second trimester and I've

been so motivated. But like my first trimester,

it was like I had to rest during that phase. So

it's taken me a long time to like get comfortable

with that. Because of that, we tend to want to

just drive and drive and drive and drive and have

everything be predictable. And so I've learned

how to be a little bit more flexible, a lot more

flexible with my own ebb and flow and to trust

that I'll be able to catch up and have those

times where I'm going to surge and push and make

huge advances. And then other times where I'm

going to withdraw and I'm going to take things

slower and fill in, you know, my body's needs and

you know, maybe sleep until after 8 in the

morning, which for a mom with four kids I'd be

like, what? How can you do that?

Yeah, no, that's like sleeping till noon for a

non parent.

Yeah.

You know, I just really love how you are modeling

how to have a, you know, create a life that is in

alignment with, you know, the natural rhythms of

nature, of the seasons, of your body. And I'm

really thinking about, based on what you just

said, how many people, how often we feel like

there's something wrong or we're doing something

wrong if we're not able to stay in that hyper

productive.

Yeah.

Mode all the time. And we're not meant to, you

know. And so I love that you're modeling how to

be at peace with that. And it's like, you know,

yeah, sometimes we move forward and make quantum

leaps and other times it's like we just take care

of the basics. And I think that's an important,

you know, thing to remember in life. It's like,

you know, when I was growing up, it was always

like all of the media around getting your period.

Right. Like all of the ads, like take this or use

this and so that you don't have to slow down, you

don't have to change anything. You could stay

doing all the things you do all the rest of the

time, even when you have your period. And it

wasn't until later in life that I started to get

educated on the fact that like you're maybe

you're not supposed to be at that level all the

time. And there are times, you know.

Yeah.

That maybe, you know, maybe you're supposed to

chill out a little bit when you have your period

and not be doing gymnastics competitions or

whatever was happening.

Absolutely controversials. Yeah, definitely.

Yeah. That absolutely, yeah, fits. Definitely.

Yeah. The natural ebb and flow of, of energy. So

in the beginning of the podcast we talked about

my work with families because that's really what

is, has been primary for the past few years since

I made the pivot. But in the background, which

used to be my primary is doing business and

marketing consultations and you know, my journey

from being employee, driving my health into the

ground, being matched with, you know, clients

that, you know, that other people were placing

for me and how all that didn't fit with my

energetic flow shifting over into freelancing and

doing business and marketing consultations, which

I did for almost 10 years and then kind of put it

down and now that's something I still do in the

background and that you and I have been

collaborating on together with the, you know,

coaching program that we're doing. And it has

been so clear to me that the financial freedom

piece is a huge part of what keeps people locked

into their current paradigm. Because the in our

world, like money is one of the ways that we can

feel secure and so anything that's going to

potentially interfere with our money making

potential is very scary. So like sleeping in,

missing work, not being able to complete an

assignment, those kinds of things are, can be

viscerally terrifying to people. And I think

that's one of the where building circadian

community is so important and also where like

there was a time when I was closing down my

business cases that I thought I was putting it

down forever. And then when I went into health

and wellness space and found how much business as

the paradigm is right now doesn't serve people's

health and wellness and that health and wellness

practitioners as a group often are also not able

to fully actualize their visions without certain

necessary business and in this day and age,

computer skills. So in that background I've kind

of started distilling what I've learned about

running a computer based business, circadian

style as a homeschooling mom, right. It's like a

very wild, unique juggle of things that I figured

out how to make work and having certain rules and

processes, right. Like I used to be like a

digital business consultant and you know,

efficiency and all of that kind of thing. And now

it's a lot more and I tend to call what I do

workflows with the flows being a really important

part of it because it's not about, it is very

process oriented but it's about understanding

where processes can flex across time and also how

to be really efficient and make sure that the

time spent Online is doing valuable work and work

that brings like, that intrinsic satisfaction

there and that it is all structured in a way that

gives that flexibility, flexibility and freedom

to be able to accommodate your energy when you're

ready to just surge and rail, and also to be able

to accommodate, when you do need to withdraw and

replenish and focus your energy in other

directions. So that workflows element, there is

something that is kind of coming around now, and

I appreciate all of the opportunities that I have

to help people with, you know, optimizing the

work elements there with, you know, the circadian

and life and all the other things that we do.

Yes, because it does. It all fits together. And

if you have, yeah, the clarity of purpose, the

clarity of your goals and then melt, meeting that

with an optimized workflow, you can take care of

the basics in the downflow periods. And then when

that surge comes, it's so clear what to work on.

And you don't need to be in super surge every

day, every minute, because you get as much done

in those surge periods when you have clarity and

an optimized flow than you would just trying to

hammer through it every day. And, yeah, I think

that's been what is. What is so fun about, you

know, Nico and I are doing this coaching program,

expansion circle and yeah, helping supporting

people to get that clarity and then helping them

to really break it, break it down, to actually

doing it in a way that works with their life,

that works with their biology, because we take

all of that into account. I had never really

thought about it like that just now. We've been

doing it for a few months now. I'm like, yeah,

this is really cool.

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. So, yeah, So, I mean, for

people who are listening, they probably are like,

what, you guys are doing a business coaching

program? Like, I have no idea about this, but

yeah, we, like, you know, we've been working on

all this stuff at IAQB and qvc and one of the

recurring things that, you know, people tell us,

you know, a lot of people go through the

certification program and are just, you know, it

fits right in with their existing business and

they're ready to fly. And then there's also a

significant group who, you know, are having

trouble with managing the time or figuring out

how they're going to pivot based on this

information. And, you know, this group often

includes practitioners who are licensed and their

license dictates how they're able to practice. So

that can create a significant hurdle to

integrating circadian light base. You know,

prescribing grounding, or, you know, these

different things that they learned in our

program. Right. And so figuring out how to maybe

even build a whole new business or education

program around, like, the synthesis of their

knowledge in a way that is, you know, safe and

comfortable. And so, you know, those two groups

of, like, the people who are just getting started

all together and the people who are going through

a major pivot, that was kind of the target that

we had in mind of like, how do we help these

people to, you know, fully achieve their vision?

Because, you know, we're all inspired by knowing

that LIGHT has such a foundational and, you know,

such a huge impact on our well being and health.

How do we effectively teach this and how do we

not burn out while doing so effectively live it?

Yeah.

And that's the beautiful thing about having your

own business. Like, it is filled with challenges.

However, you know, it's everything that you've

been saying, it is your business, so you get to

structure it however you want.

Right. And a lot of times people are.

Like, oh, well, I have to be on zoom all day or I

have to make this, make things last this long.

And I'm like, why? Why do you have to do that?

Who told you that? Oh, well, that's just how it

is, I think. So does it work for you? Do you want

it to be like that? No. Okay, well, it's yours.

Yeah. It's your business.

You get to decide how it's structured.

Yeah. So you had a background as an executive

coach before LIGHT took over your world?

Before I applied all those skills to organizing

information in a very unique area. Yes. Correct.

Yeah. So would you share a little bit about what

that, how that is now coming in? Because I've

been sitting and watching you do just amazing

transformational work with people. And I

experienced it when I was going through the IAQB

certification. And then now watching you do it

with other people and like, it's obviously a

natural skill that you have, but also something

that you dedicated yourself to learning how to do

that. And so. Yeah. Could you share just a little

bit about how you've done this? Yeah.

Yeah. So it's, I mean, it's, it's coaching is

coaching. Right. So you're supporting people to

reach their goals. A lot of people in this

community, those, those are health and wellness

goals. And my background, it was career goals,

business goals. You know, I also personal, I did

stuff that would be more considered life

coaching. But it's, you know, it's really

difficult to see a greater vision for yourself

when you're in it. Like when you're in the weeds,

you know, we're talking about this. You and I had

a call with Melissa, who helped us see a greater

vision for what we're working on than we could

see ourselves. And so the coaching skills are

really about holding space for people to see a

bigger vision they can see for themselves, and

then helping them get there in a way that feels

good, that is satisfying and fun and profitable.

You know, there's a lot of shame and fear around

making a sale and earning money and getting paid.

That is, you know, in a. In the quantum field,

sending out the signal that you're not available

for any of that. And so to get that clarity, as

we talk about, like, clarity, being a magnet does

require some support. And that's, you know, what

I, What I give because I'm. I'm not in. I'm not

in it. I'm on the outside. But I have, you know,

like, an unconditional desire for everyone to be

successful. Like, I just really want everyone to

be successful. And if you're in my world, I will

do whatever I can to help you be successful.

That's just how I am.

Yes, I've definitely seen that.

And I believe that people who understand all of

the things that we've been talking about, you

know, your success really matters to the world.

It matters to you that you. So you can construct

a life that feels good and that pays you, but it

also, for everyone listening for you. Your

success isn't a selfish ambition. It's a selfless

ambition.

Yeah, it makes such a huge difference the way you

show up at work, like, you know, goes back to

your family and all of the people that you care

about that are not related to your work, too.

Like, for all of you, you know, like, I've made

so many of these transitions for my family and

based on their needs as well as mine. You know, I

haven't talked as much about that, but there's

definitely, you know, things where, you know,

moments where I had to step back and look out,

say, oh, this isn't working for, you know, this

child, or, oh, this isn't working for my husband.

So even though I'm, you know, think that this is

the right way, like, have to roll it back and

figure out a different alternative path. And so

that, yeah, all of the. The things that we do

with lifestyle, like dreamlining and. And all

that visioning work, it's been so fun doing it in

community with you that we. We did had our first

group come through Expansion Circle, where We got

to kind of like play with the ideas and the, the

collaboration and the energy and dynamic between

you, Meredith and me, Nico, and the backgrounds

each of us, you know, bring to these

conversations. And you know that we both have

this kind of like coaching, sometimes consulting

more often coaching. But, you know, we, we each

do have a lot of experience and have tried a lot

of things in business and lifestyle and home and

circadian health and all kinds of health and, and

also like extensive like trainings and things do.

Meredith, I know that you're constantly learning

and growing your skill sets, and I'm also

constantly learning and growing skill sets and it

was so awesome to, you know, the first group of

people we collected were similarly also always

like learning and growing and trying new things.

So to jump in and be able to have these kinds of

conversations about what is your ideal lifestyle,

what is your workflow? How do you want to feel

when you do open your computer for the first time

in the morning? How does that feel? What does

that look like? What have you done before that?

And same thing, like, when you close your

computer, how do you feel about that time that

you spent? How do you want to feel? Like, what

are the changes between, you know, your ideals

for those moments and the day to day realities

and like, how do we bring, you know, coherence to

the ideal lifestyle that we wish we could have

and the, you know, life that we woke up to when

we rolled out of bed this morning at whatever

time it was.

That's it. I love that. Yeah, that's it exactly.

Because at the end of the day, it's just the day

we have the day we're in right now, right this

minute. And I love goals. I have goals, but it's

a moment to moment and we're allowed to make

those moments be in a way that generally

speaking, make us feel good.

Yeah.

And pass that on to others.

Yeah, that was something I shared with too, or

you know, with the group when we were talking and

I was like, you know, those competitors out

there, those people who you think are doing evil

in the world, or those people who you think are

so far ahead of you that you could never be in

their shoes, but you kind of wish that you were a

little bit. They have the same hours today as you

do, the exact same hours in. So we have all kinds

of tools. Like there's, you know, workflow

optimization, there's delegation, there are

partnerships, there are tools, there are

softwares. Like, how do you, how do you choose

the right ones of all of like the different

things that at your disposal that are also at all

of your competitor or role model model, you know,

they also have them at your disposal. And so

obviously, like some people have more money or

some people have more experience or some people

have a, you know, different network or whatever.

But like the time in the day, that part is the

same for everyone.

Yes.

Yeah.

And so, yeah. So no matter where you're at, there

are, there are ways to structure things where the

momentum will, will be increased, the results

will be increased, the satisfaction be increased.

And you know, not to be harsh, but often what is

holding people back is they think it's all of

these limitations, but it's really not having

enough support to move out of your comfort zone

is often what it comes down to.

Right? Yep.

I'll leave it at that. Because it is like change.

I've been doing, looking at Martin Picard's work

lately and the idea like change is it taxes our

mitochondria like we need to have. So all of this

mitochondria optimization work that we've been

doing for our health, like, what is that

translating into? That's translating into energy

to live our lives. Like, what does that look

like? Anyway, I could go on, but I won't. So.

Okay, before we wrap, because I know, I know my

people and they're going to ask, they're going to

say at the beginning, Nico said there were six

ways to support your melatonin and you covered

four of them. So.

Okay, perfect.

Okay, I hear you all. We haven't even published

this yet, but I hear it, so I'm going to recap.

And you. Okay, so we have sunlight, darkness,

meal timing.

Yeah, sure. Meal timing. So meal timing. I

usually also include food because there are

certain foods that actually have melatonin in

them. So food based sources is kind of like

supplemental melatonin. So there's the food based

sources, there's the supplemental melatonin and

then there's this one. So is that. Are we only at

4? So maybe I should. Yeah.

So there's temperature.

Yep, temperature, temperature, darkness,

sunlight. And then there's the food, and then

there's the supplements, and then there's the

microbiome. Microbiome produces melatonin. So

when you're optimizing your microbiome health,

which is on your skin as well as permeating your

whole body, that also produces melatonin. And

then I guess there are actually more. But if you

are pregnant, your placenta also creates

melatonin that goes into circulation for mama and

baby. And then for babies, if they are

breastfeeding, I guess we're at 8. But breast

milk also contains melatonin.

So. Amazing. Okay, so in terms of. Yeah, so the

practical things, we want it. We want to eat in

the morning and stop eating before it gets dark.

And we want to be eating protein foods.

Tryptophan is the precursor to melatonin. Right.

And then you can look up lists of foods that have

melatonin and decide which of those might or

might not be appropriate for you there.

I love that suggestion.

Yeah.

What about movement and exercising?

Yeah, definitely. There are correlations there

too. You know, movement generates. He movement

stimulates. You know, anything that supports your

circadian health is going to support your. Your

melatonin production. Anything that supports

mitochondrial health is going to support

melatonin production. People always talk about

mitochondria as the powerhouse of the cell and it

makes ATP. And it's like, that's a whole other

topic. And people could go into the podcast

archives to hear people who are dairy expert

talking about that. But yeah, mitochondria also

make melatonin. So anything that's helping your

mitochondria be more healthy is also going to

help with that. Another thing about melatonin is

that it's inhibited by fluoride. So there are

things that you can do and that would also

probably be a whole other can of worms to get

into. But, you know, for women who are pregnant,

I'm always like, at least for this time, consider

not getting any dental fluoride treatments and

swapping out your fluoride toothpaste products

and things, and being mindful of fluoride in your

water just for the fact that it's. Is in

pregnancy particularly, melatonin is so key to

placental development, and placental development

is so key to the pregnancy going well as a whole.

So for that time, I'm always like, I don't. I

don't really have many qualms about saying, like,

for this phase of life, like, everything you can

do to optimize melatonin is going to be

beneficial for you and your baby. And that

includes eliminating fluoride along with your

artificial lights at night, artificial white and

blue lights. So, yeah, but you're right. We

didn't quite get to the end of that, and we

actually discovered a couple more.

We're in the flow. It's all flexible. Yeah, there

are many things and we talked about a lot of

them, and if you want to go deeper on any of

them, go to Nico's substack. And I'm sure she has

articles on.

Every single one of these things. Totally. Yep.

You can go in. There's a little search bar at the

top, so that's kind of fun. You can plumb the

search bar and then I'm also like super there.

And for people who do upgrade to a paid

subscription, it opens up a DM channel. So then

you can just be like, hey, Nico, what do I need

to read? Where do I find this? And then I can

pull up the article for you. Yeah, and that's a

really good way. And it's like super affordable

way to get just like some little coaching and,

you know, access to so many research papers and

all that. So, yeah, would love to chat over

there. It's fun.

Perfect.

Yeah.

So that's it. If you would like. Yeah. So if you

want to follow up on any of the health related

stuff we talk about, go to Nico Substack. I

recommend being, you know, paying for the

membership. It's a great group in there and Nico,

as you've heard, is very knowledgeable and we

didn't quite cover this, but Nico's like, like a

research maven. She's director of research at the

Institute of Applied Quantum Biology. She's

really good at it. She can help you find pretty

much whatever you need. She probably has it in

her. Her bibliographies. Yeah. And then if you

want the business coaching we were talking about,

that's at expansioncircle IO or you can go to

qpcpod.com and click on the little. The coaching

thing in there.

Yeah.

And Nico and I are both in there bringing our

expertise to support new paradigm professionals

in any capacity. So it doesn't really matter what

you do if you align with all the stuff we've been

talking about. We'd love to have you in there.

Yes, definitely. It's been so much fun and I love

chatting about all of this stuff and we've

created a very nice, comfortable space to come in

and talk and also do real transformative work.

Yeah, no, it's really cool. I'm so impressed and

proud of all of the people who've come through so

far. They've made such amazing progress. Nico, I

feel like we could talk for another two hours.

Yeah. But.

I do have a time limit from my podcast producer

on how long this podcast can be before he starts

making more money.

Yeah. Gotta optimize all the ins and all the outs.

Yeah.

So, yep, we can get together again another day.

Yes, we will do that. Yes, we will do this. You

know, stay tuned. Meredith and Nico's chats will

continue.

Yep. Thanks so much. It's always a pleasure to

talk with you and go through these things. And I

love that our listeners got to hear this little

more, you know, intimate version of what our day

to day lives look like. And you know, what we've

been working on, you know, publicly and somewhat

privately. So that was a great, great

conversation. I'm excited to share it around too.

So thank you.

Thank you, Nico. See you all soon.

Bye.