This is Transit Unplugged.

I'm Paul Comfort, and this week we bring you an insight into hydrogen fuel.

For public transportation as part of the recent infrastructure spending bills.

There's been a big focus on what's called hydrogen hubs.

These are 7 centers around the US where there is being spent a lot

of money to create centers where.

fuel, the hydrogen fuel can be brought in and produced and shipped out

from around the country to lower the cost per kilogram of hydrogen fuel.

And today we talked to two of the nation's top experts on the topic,

and that is Kirt Conrad, who is CEO of Stark Area Regional Transit Authority.

And Tim Sasseen who is Director of Market Development and Public

Affairs in North America for Ballard, which makes the fuel cells.

Kirt is a, is a favorite of mine on this hot topic.

He's written a chapter in my upcoming book, The New Future of Public

Transportation, as well as Doran Barnes has written a chapter on this topic.

Kirt has been the CEO of Stark Area Regional Transit Authority in

Canton, Ohio, the home of the NFL Football Hall of Fame, since 2009.

SARTA operates 110 buses with 240 employees.

They operate diesel, electric hybrids, biodiesel, and

compressed natural gas buses.

Also, they have 21 hydrogen fuel cell buses, which is the largest fleet in

the country outside of California.

And Kirt actually loans them around the country to trade shows, etc.

I actually got to see one in person a couple years ago, at the Transportation

Association of Maryland conference.

even though he's funny and he, I think, could have a second career in stand up

comedy, he really is a serious guy who's focused on this and a real good spokesman,

for the hydrogen, fuel cell, bus council, and all the work being done across

the country as people are looking at alternatives to move us to a decarbonized

zero emission future for buses.

This is a great, fun conversation that I know you're going to enjoy on

today's episode of Transit Unplugged.

Excited to have with me today, two of the leaders here in the United States

in the hot, hot, almost explosive topic.

Kirt said, I shouldn't say that of hydrogen fuel, but great to have you

with us, Kirt Conrad, who is CEO of Stark Transit and Tim Sasseen who is,

director of market development and public affairs for North America, for Ballard.

As those who listen to the podcast regularly know, zero emission buses

is one of the trending topics in our world of public transportation.

I was in Tulsa last week with Scott Marr, the CEO there, and he's all

in on CNG, compressed natural gas, because that's what they have a

lot of it right there, just like they do that in Fort Worth, Texas.

And so they showed me their entire, you know, setup and

how they fuel the vehicles.

So really there's four or five main types of fuel in the United States, right?

There is for buses.

There is diesel.

And then now we have what's called clean diesel, which is a lot

cleaner than the old versions of diesel, reducing particulates.

then you've got compressed natural gas, then you've got like a vegetable

oil gas that they're using in some places in Canada, modified fuel.

Then you go to battery electric and then hydrogen, and I know there's

probably some permutations as well, but those are the big ones.

And battery electric has been at the forefront.

But there was a lot of problems just this last month across Canada and

colder climates where many of the CEOs and folks I was talking to said,

Paul, our buses were hardly moving.

It was so cold up here.

I mean, we couldn't get much of a charge, et cetera.

and those of you who listened to Eve Wiggins on the podcast just recently.

From Mississauga, Canada, talked about, you know, the concerns that she

has with battery electric buses, but there's a whole new fuel type, which

has been around for ages, but it's really coming to the forefront of our

industry now, Kirt, and that's hydrogen.

Now, you're head of the, you're head of a big group that does this, just

give us a little bit of background on hydrogen, and then I'm going to go into

brand new federal funding in the U.

S.

for something called hydrogen hubs, which I want you to describe, but first,

just give us a take on hydrogen fuel in general and what's going on with it.

So hydrogen, if you can imagine like gasoline, hydrogen is a

fuel carrier, or energy carrier, you can store energy, just like you put

gasoline in your car, you put hydrogen in a vehicle, and you're storing energy,

and then what happens is the hydrogen is converted through a fuel cell, and

hopefully that would be a Ballard fuel cell that you're using to make your, Tim's

with the Ballard, your, your fuel cells.

And that fuel cell through a chemical process actually converts

that power into electricity and it drives an electric drive motor.

So it's an electric vehicle, it's just powered by hydrogen.

So we have 21 vehicles here, we're the fourth largest in the country.

The large is outside of California.

We've been in operation about about 10 years and we got about

a million miles on our fleet.

We see that the, uptime performance is pretty well equivalent to

what we see in a diesel vehicle.

the nice thing about that, you can go 300 plus miles on a single refill,

and you can get that refill of hydrogen, down to about six minutes.

So it really is a drop in replacement equivalent for diesel.

Thank you, Kirt.

When I was up in Edmonton recently, we filmed an episode of Transit

Unplugged TV up there and also a podcast with Eddie Robar, who is the

Deputy City Manager and used to head up the Edmonton Transit Service.

He showed us the back of an engine and walked us through how it works, the fuel

cell, and I did a little clip of that, put it up on YouTube, and it got thousands

and thousands of views around the world.

Tim, that's what your company does, right?

You all produce those fuel cells?

Tell us about that and, you know, whatever you want to say about that.

Yeah, we started back in 1979, Jeffrey Ballard wanted

to replace the combustion engine.

We're working hard on it, but we've always been focused on heavy duty

about 32 years ago is when we put our first bus on the road, so transit's

always been square in our sights.

And really, that's all we do, is the hydrogen fuel cell.

the thing that converts hydrogen into electricity, just as if it were A

battery, we've been making and producing those in North America all this time,

up in Vancouver, Canada is where our R& D facilities are, but we've also

got a manufacturing facility in Bend, Oregon, and that's where the fuel cell

modules, buses in the United States, come from, from Ballard, and really

Buy America, as you mentioned, it has been really effective in coercing

and convincing Ballard to invest more and more in the United States.

That used to be just a little engineering office, but that we had acquired some

time back and slowly it's growing to take on more and more responsibility.

We're looking at bigger and bigger investments within the United States

to satisfy this market as it grows.

so we're fully bought into transit.

Transit has always been, there for us.

It's such an attractive market for introducing zero emission technology.

It's got all of the tough points of fleet management and fleet operations

that a big trucking fleet might have, but The economics of it value what's

provided to the customer and to the community much more so than a strictly

commercial venture and that's really helped us to grow together with transit

to make zero emissions ready and these drive trains really will adapt

quite well to these other, These other powertrains, these other chassis,

boats, and everything else.

Tell me how that works, Tim.

So when I looked at the, of course, I've seen one of Kirt's buses.

Kirt brought it down to TAM, Transportation Association of Maryland,

a couple years ago, and when I first got to see a hydrogen bus, and by the way,

Kirt, thank you for, I know you loan a lot of your fleet out around the country, so

the people can kind of see it in person.

But when I looked at it again up there in Edmonton at the CUTA

conference, It reminded me of the old flux capacitor on the DeLorean,

you know, from Back To The Future.

There's this thing in the middle that turns this hydrogen fuel in these

tanks that are on the roof of a bus.

And then what happens then, Tim?

Just walk us briefly through.

It's not too different from the engines that we're all familiar with,

but instead of burning that hydrogen and creating a high temperature and all

the particulate matter associated with it, instead of burning it, we react it.

So the fuel, it's a

chemical reaction.

Fuel cell.

What's that?

It's a chemical reaction.

Is that the, is that a good way to say it?

Yeah, that's a good way to say it.

It's a good way to say it.

The hydrogen hits the membrane and it reacts with the membrane.

So the proton goes across, the electron goes into your

electrical circuit, electrically, it looks just like a battery.

right.

In fact, we put 'em in parallel with the batteries as if it

were another battery pack.

And that's the beauty of it is that it gives you that ability for an electric

traction drive and electric drives are fantastic for things like buses

because they've got high torque and all the benefits that we know about the

shortcoming is that as you leave those batteries, the performance starts to

fade, not so with the hydrogen fuel cells.

So We, keep going just as strong with a full tank as we do when you get

close to empty because constant output.

It's a nice feature of hydrogen fuel cells.

And the addition is that we make heat.

So, not only can we store more energy up on the roof, but, you know, you

talked about this when you were off in Edmonton, that, we also have waste

heat that we can use in these colder climates, and it's going to be a

really big deal as we move into some of these, colder transit agencies.

Yeah, so the only, Kirt, you mentioned this to me before, and

you talk about it in the chapter that you wrote for my upcoming book, The

New Future of Public Transportation.

By the way, folks, if you want to Kind of read a really good description.

Take a look at Kirt's chapter.

It'll be available.

ebook will be available in the middle of April and the paperback in June.

but you describe it in great detail and with some humor,

which I always like about you.

But, the only thing that comes out is, is water out of your tailpipe, right?

And heat inside the vehicle to warm the vehicle up.

Correct.

Correct.

The advantage of the fuel cell versus a battery is the, the electricity is,

is, is consumed and immediately used.

whereas a battery, you're storing it and you have to discharge it, and so the

cold temperatures like Edmonton, Canada, that, because of the physics of the way

batteries work, they don't discharge as efficiently, so you may lose 40, 50

percent of your capacity or your range because of the cold, whereas a fuel cell

immediately uses it and doesn't have that same degradation from the cold.

Yeah, and the, on our year end podcast this year at the

end of 2023, I had Paul Skoutelas on.

Paul is the, president and CEO of the American Public

Transportation Association.

And when we talked about the trends that are happening in the

industry going into 2024, hydrogen fuel is one of those trends.

Foothills Transit, Doran Barnes, has, has also, one of the leaders

in the industry, has been a, a big proponent of hydrogen fuel.

But there's been a problem, Kirt, and the problem is Where do you get your hydrogen?

You know, do you have to have it shipped in?

Do you make it?

but there's something new happening and it's called Hydrogen Hubs.

Tell us about that.

So yeah, this is a project that really came out

of the Biden Administration.

It's linked to, The Biden administration 50 billion earth shot for hydrogen,

which is trying to get the price of hydrogen down to $1 per kilogram.

if anybody's in California, you may have seen it as high as $35 a kilogram.

So really trying to get it down to, a cost per kilogram that, that.

It is equivalent or cheaper than gasoline, but really the hydrogen hubs is a concept

coming out that hydrogen can be used, just not in transportation, but it can

be used in producing steel, chemicals, fertilizer, concrete, it can be used to

store energy, it can be used as an energy carrier, you can actually use it it's put

in your gas lines to offset natural gas.

You can burn on your stove.

You can, you can use it to, to make electricity.

And so really it's the idea that hydrogen is the element that society

is going to use to decarbonize.

It is the main arrow in our quiver that we're going to use to decarbonize.

And so the Biden Administration had put, $10 billion in the infrastructure bill to,

to fund, hydrogen hubs across the country.

Originally, there was like 70 that were proposed and got it down to 7.

and basically the, the hubs are based in the East Coast, Midwest.

there's 1 that we're a part of in the Appalachian area.

there's one in Texas, the upper Midwest, and then in the

California are the seven hubs.

And so really what they're trying to do is match manufacturing with

consumers and then hopefully we'll be able to replicate that hub concept

around the rest of the country.

That's interesting.

So, Tim, what is a hub?

and, and, you know, what is a hydrogen hub?

Is it a place where, I don't know, tell me what it is.

This is the place where federal policy really got it right.

They listened to industry, because for hydrogen, it benefits to have more and

more users and producers concentrated in a region, which is very different

from the grid and battery concerns.

The grid gets congested, and it gets difficult to run that distribution

infrastructure when you've got a lot of loads and flows together,

so you want them dispersed.

With hydrogen, to make it economically, you want to have

very large scale electrolyzers.

steam methane reformers or pyrolysis plants.

Big capital equipment to really amortize over that production cost and you

can get low cost hydrogen that way.

The same with the end users of it.

The more that you have in one place, the more you can justify the economics

of building that hydrogen production.

So bringing together producers and consumers in one geographic

region makes a lot of sense.

Transportation of the hydrogen, it helps.

Hydrogen is typically consumed.

in gaseous or liquid form by fleet.

And when you move it by gas, you can only fit so much on a truckload, maybe

1, 500 kilograms or so, and the economic distance of that is probably something

from 100 to let's say 300 miles.

With liquid, you get much farther, 500 to 1000 miles, but still, beyond

that, the transportation of the fuel itself starts to become more expensive

. So, it makes sense to have them co located, and that's

the idea of hydrogen hubs.

So, the DOE set up through the Office of Clean Energy, deployments this concept

for a limited number of hydrogen hubs.

We've got seven of them throughout the United States, where people are

putting together business plans for producing and consuming the hydrogen.

And that allows fleets and other hydrogen consumers, industrial consumers, other

users of hydrogen, confidence to invest.

In hydrogen vehicle, in hydrogen technology, because

they know the fuel is coming.

So not only does it help to drive down the economics, it helps to build up market

confidence . That hydrogen is coming.

It is coming in a clean form and it's coming in a way that's

going to be economic and cost competitive, if not cheaper in the,

in the long run than fossil fuels.

It's very exciting.

I think, everyone is concerned about the environment.

They're concerned about clean air, clean water.

And so, to me, it makes sense to have multiple.

You know, all of the above kind of approaches, right?

So people are looking at all sorts of energy that emits less emissions.

but the practical question for people listening, to this podcast today,

most of whom work in and around the public transit industry is, you

know, how does this practically work?

So Kirt, could you walk us through if I'm a, transit CEO in Louisiana and All right.

I got you.

I heard Kirt.

I heard Tim.

I heard 10 things about this and I get that the grid is congested and, and I

need to maybe consider other options.

and so I don't want to have a problem, you know, if we get flooded

and all my vehicles are electric and the grid goes down and I've

got no way to evacuate my city.

I want to see what other options are out there.

I want to get a hydrogen bus.

What now?

So we, we kind of talked about earlier on, the, a lot of, a

lot of fleets have used compressed natural gas, which is a gaseous form.

And really what hydrogen is, is, is just another gaseous form of production.

So it fuels just like CNG does it, it acts like natural gas.

the safety protocols you have to do is take natural gas and really

us in the hydrogen field, maybe Tim is, but aren't really that bright.

And so we stole all of that infrastructure protocols from the natural gas guys and

applied it to hydrogen . So a lot of these safety protocols and fueling protocols

have been around for a long time.

But if you're trying to get hydrogen at your location,

you can either do it two ways.

One, produce it on site or get it delivered.

Producing it on site, you're either going to produce it through a form

that's called, through natural gas, or you're going to use, use

electrolysis to split water, split water, into, into hydrogen and

oxygen.

Interesting.

Is that, is that what, uh, you've been out to that location, right?

Where, uh, in Sunline Transit, they, I walked, I went, I went in

their factory where she made that.

Is that, is that what that process is?

They're breaking it apart?

Do you know?

Yeah, so, so Sunline and then, Champaign Urbana

have a one ton electrolyzer.

Okay.

That makes a ton of hydrogen a day.

Why we mix tons and grams, kilograms together.

I don't know.

I could go down this whole measurement thing of Yeah.

Imperial white kilo and, and I, I don't know.

And sometimes my, my accounting people are like, why do we get

it in gallons but dispense it in kilograms and like, I don't know.

That's, that's really good.

Yeah.

Keep going.

Oh, it's,

it's, I, I could get into whole monologue about measurements

and getting into this stuff.

It's kind of funny.

I'll have to have you on my next comedy routine.

We at a Kill a Juul or a mega mega.

There you go.

All right.

So you got to make a decision whether to truck it in or make it

yourself and there's a couple ways you can make it and then what?

And so, and so, really, let's just say the, the main, the main

way people do it is liquid hydrogen, which a liquid is at minus 500, 530

degrees in a, in a liquid form, and then need to convert it to, to, to, a gas.

So everything in the industry is gas is on board.

If vehicles on board, the cars you see in California, big

trucks, everything's gaseous.

It's a 10, it's a car's at 10,000 PSIA bus is at 5,000 PSI.

And then from there, you just dispense it.

You hook it up to could, could hook up the car and fuel it.

It's pretty simple to do.

How do I get a bus though?

Where would I get a bus from?

Who's making hydrogen buses?

OEM's doing it?

Like, like major manufacturers of buses?

Yeah, so, E& C was doing it earlier this year, but as you said that

they're going out, New Flyers is building them, we actually are taking our first

delivery of our first, New Flyer bus here, probably in the next couple weeks.

now on the small bus market, SARTA, we were actually the first ones in the

country to build a paratransit vehicle, and now there's a couple other ones that

are coming on market, so hopefully by the end of this year, you'll see additional

hydrogen vehicles, coming online.

But, you know, the one thing, it was kind of funny, we have the New Flyer rep here,

and I said, yeah, I just want a bus, can I go on your website somewhere, put it in my

basket, then check out on the other side.

He said, I want to, but you can't really do that, but you

can leave your credit card here.

There you go.

So, I mean, really building it isn't any different than a battery vehicle.

So they'll build it right on the line for you.

Yeah, build right on.

FD Om.

Okay, good.

And how much does, how long does it take and how much do they cost?

You just bought one, so give us roundabout numbers.

I know, you know, if you get the electric locks it may be a little bit more, but

, Kirt Conrad: it's gonna be white, 1.2 to 1.3, and it could be as low as.

under a million if you order more than 10 vehicles, and actually if you order

before midnight tonight with coupon code SAVE20%, you can get it lower.

You get

a ginsu knife?

Okay.

Yeah, yeah.

so how long will it take?

If, if, how long did yours take?

You just ordered one when?

Last April?

Yeah.

yeah, last April we should be getting about a year or so.

About a

year.

Okay.

All right.

So 1.

2 million and a year, and you can have a hydrogen bus.

You just got to make sure, then you got that year to figure out how you're

going to get the fuel in, whether you're going to truck it or build it up.

Yeah.

And you have to make sure you have the compressing station and, and,

and that, and you also have to make sure you have your building.

So everyone's used to the danger we have in, in, in traditional vehicles.

If you have a leak in your diesel vehicle, it hits the

ground and it may have a puddle.

And that's, that's the issue.

That's why you don't smoke near the gas tank.

try not to.

You're right.

I can tell you stories about that too.

On the comedy side about.

People digging up.

Anyway, so, so that's the floor down with nitrogen.

It's really from the ceiling down where you could accumulate in a pocket.

So you need to make sure you've got sensors in your building and you

also have fans, that kind of stuff.

So you have, you, you've got three parts you have to look at.

The bus, the fueling itself, and then the safety of the building

that you're going to maintain your vehicles in when you're, when you're

getting your, your bus, so to speak.

And if, Tim, if someone is interested, it, it, there's a

lot of stuff to it is what Tim, what Kirt's explaining, right?

It's not just the vehicles, the fueling, it's the facilities, but there's a

group called the Hydrogen Council that you guys are a part of where people can

get a lot of that information, right?

Yeah, the Hydrogen Fuel Cell Bus Council.

It's an organization of transit fuel cell electric bus users and potential

users and manufacturers as well.

They're doing a lot on the policy monitoring side, but also in education.

It's a great group to work with and to reach out to.

They're getting their information together now.

I'd say you check out their website and there's a lot of

information that they can provide.

Tim, when will these hydrogen hubs, so let's say I want

to find out, is there one near me?

Where can I get that information?

the Office of Clean Energy Demonstrations is

administering the hydrogen hubs.

That's a good place to start.

Simple Google search can get you there.

and they can redirect you also to each of the seven different hubs.

Each hub has an organization that administers it.

there's a part of the one in the Midwest.

but that group can help to guide you.

And they're all different structures.

some have heavy academic influence.

Some have heavy industry influence.

Some are governmental.

They're all different business models with different approaches to what

they're doing based on that funding.

And they're just finishing up their negotiations right now with the Department

of Energy for that final budget agreement.

That's great.

I mean, I could talk to you guys for another hour about all this,

but we're almost out of time.

Kirt, what final thoughts do you have for people who are interested in hydrogen?

Well, I think the bottom line is if you're really going to want

to find a drop in replacement for your diesel bus that can run in all, all times,

all kinds of weather and all kinds of, conditions, hydrogen vehicles for you.

Now, I will say that there are use cases where battery electric is probably has,

has a, as a, has a paratransit, is a good, good fit or peak hour commuter traffic.

We're actually gonna be getting a couple battery electric buses to run

into peak hour service into Cleveland.

So I, I think that there are ca use cases for both, but I think, the fuel cell

hydrant bus is your better choice to, to replace your typical D diesel 40 footer.

Yeah, everybody wants to decarbonize their fleet.

Tim, what are your, what is your final thoughts?

So, reach out to your fuel providers as soon as possible.

If you are interested in hydrogen fuel cell electric buses, there's a lot of

great things they can do operationally for you, but your timelines these days are

really set by All that fuel infrastructure and the partners that you work with.

So if you get interested, if you can visit places like SARTA, they definitely know

what's going on, but they're busy often.

but do check out the Hydrogen Fuel Cell Bus Council, get information, get involved

in the fuel conversation sooner rather than later, and folks like New Flyer can

set you up with the buses, no problem.

That's great.

And in our show notes of the podcast this week, we'll put links to all these.

Plus, Kirt's head of a group called, I think, the Midwest Center of Excellence.

There's one out west, right, where people can learn more.

Is that right, Kirt?

Yeah, that's, that's correct.

Along with Iowa State and Cleveland State, we put together a center where we do

outreach and training, for individuals coming into this new technology.

Yeah, and, and I guess to wrap it up from my perspective, no

one's talking down electric, battery electric, you know, it's just, it's just

what Kirt said, I think is what a lot of transit CEOs are telling me, and I

bet you I've talked to a half dozen in the last week who have said to me, you

know, look, We like battery electric.

It's great, but we need more options, because it doesn't meet all of our needs.

And so we're looking into other options.

And one of them is we're looking into hydrogen.

Others, you know, are looking into these other types of fuels I mentioned, like

in Vancouver, they just announced some different fuels they're looking into.

So there's lots of options, but the end goal, like, Stephen Covey, Seven

Habits of Highly Effective people says, begin with the end in mind.

I think everyone has the same goal in mind, which is to have

a clean fuel for their fleet.

To help contribute to a cleaner environment for all of us and

then you work your way backwards and see what works for you.

There's a famous quote, that Peter Rogoff is credited with.

It says, you know, if you've seen one transit system,

you've seen one transit system.

And, and that's because, you know, the, the, government structures are different,

the locations, the temperatures, the operating environment, all that is

different, and, this is an opportunity to educate yourself on one of the options

which will help fuel your fleet, and I thank you, Tim, and Kirt and Carter McCoy

from the, Hydrogen Bus Council for helping to set up this interview to kind of give a

little bit more information to people who are considering what their options are.

Thank you.

Thank you, Paul.

Alright, take care, guys.

Thank you for listening to this week's episode of transit

unplugged with our special guests, Kirt Conrad, and Tim Sasseen.

We've created a special playlist, including this episode, all

about hydrogen and hydrogen fuel.

So if you want to have a listen and dive deep into this topic,

well, that's the playlist for you.

Next week.

We have another episode swap and this time it's with our friend and

past guest, Brandon Bartek from the Future of Mobility podcast.

Brandon and his guest.

Larry Burns, who is a visionary leader in autonomous vehicles are talking

about the future of autonomous vehicles.

Make sure you don't miss a thing going on at Transit Unplugged by

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You can find everything@transitunplugged.com.

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So until next week, ride safe and ride happy.