Michael Conner: [00:00:00] Good morning, good afternoon, good evening. Welcome to another episode of Voices for Excellence. I am your host, Dr. Michael Conner, CEO, and founder of the Agile Evolutionary Group, and proud host of VFE and today's guest, right during Black Excellence, our our Black Excellence series During Black History Month, I I, this is the only time you're gonna hear me compliment this brother.

Michael Conner: I, I love him to death. I love him like a brother, man, I tell you, he, man, I tell you, I can't even get it out. That's so much. I love Paul. When I first moved up to Rochester. I remember that everybody was saying, you gotta meet Dr. Paul Miller. You gotta talk to Dr. Paul Miller. And finally, when we got connected, about eight, nine months later, here we are, we're doing, we're causing some good trouble across the country.

Michael Conner: And I'm gonna tell the small story and I'm gonna have, I'm gonna have doc laughing. [00:01:00] So I went over Doc's house on Thanksgiving and when I went over to Doc's house on Thanksgiving, I brought my son. We wind up playing Madden and you know, Paul had a nice little lead over. My son and Paul had to go upstairs and, you know, handle family and everything.

Michael Conner: So he gave the, he gave the controller to me. Now, I, I put us behind. I'm gonna admit that Doc. I, I put us.

Dr. Paul Miller: Good. Thank you for your honesty, doc. He comes back, he gets us back up. That detail is important for those who are listening and might not be watching, but are listening. The word significantly is, is, you know, you're the, like the human dictionary.

Dr. Paul Miller: So would you like to define what significantly means for people?

Michael Conner: So Paul got us back in. So we're up six. You can see I'm crying about this because I still laugh about this. So we're up six, we're about 10 seconds to go. Paul kicks it off to my son. This is fourth quarter. Now. I know Paul wasn't [00:02:00] let, letting him do this because we want to come out with the W.

Dr. Paul Miller: Not at all.

Michael Conner: But my son runs back like a 96 yard kickoff return for the touchdown game over, right? I look at

Dr. Paul Miller: what is your son 10,

Michael Conner: I look up like, I'm like, yo, we doing.

Michael Conner: But anyways, man, just like again, Dr. Miller is such a huge voice in the education ecosystem nationally. Around within the charter network. He's currently the CAO for Exceptional, and he has just as many books out as Michael Jordan has rings. He wrote six books, right? Jordan can only do this. Dr. Miller can do this.

Michael Conner: Like I said, we talk, I, I would say probably either every day or every other day with some of the endeavors that we're going, that we're doing together. Again, just a, a man absolutely admire. I love, there's only one thing I don't like about him and you can see his background, but that's,[00:03:00]

Michael Conner: that's the, that's the D nine love that we have. So without further do in this black, in this black Excellence series celebrating Black History Month, it is no, no other person that I would rather have on this episode or on this podcast. Like I said, just means so much to me, uh, to my dear heart. Dr. Paul Miller, welcome to VFE in the Black excellent series, bro.

Michael Conner: What's, what's going on, man?

Dr. Paul Miller: Thank you, man. I, I, I'm, I'm happy to be here. You know, I can't wait to get, uh, a rematch with your son. You know, I let, what is he, 10. I let a 10-year-old come back and, and beat me with four seconds left. Like that doesn't sit well with me. I'm super competitive. And then he is got the nerve to say, all right, dad, it's time to go.

Dr. Paul Miller: He, he, he didn't say run it back, he didn't say anything. This dude said it's time to go. Like it was past his bedtime and he was sleepy. Uh, so like, yeah, I have some issues with him telling it's personal [00:04:00] and so we gotta rectify that situation.

Michael Conner: Oh man, doc, you got me crying over here, man. That's the first one.

Michael Conner: VFE. You got me crying, laughing, but it is so true though. He was like, he said, pops, you ready? And I'm like, you don't, you don't wanna play me. He's like, nah. He went, he went one and oh, he, he, he went like this. I won. He dropped the joystick, was like, I'm out. Let's go. I need my ride home. So what, just like driving Miss Daisy brought him back to the house.

Michael Conner: But Doc, thank you for coming on VFE. In all seriousness, I've been wanting to get you on the podcast for a long time. I purposely waited. For the Black Excellence Series, because we're just highlighting black excellence across the education ecosystem. And like I said, man, you're, you're one of the, the educators that are really, really challenging the status quo, really changing the status quo.

Michael Conner: So I want my audience to be able to understand and unpack your intellectual property, but moreover, the [00:05:00] vitality that you have for transformation. So Paul, like I said, is an absolute honor of your brother, but you know, education stakeholders, whether it be public or whether it be charter, you know, whether they're reading your bestselling books, engaging with you as a CAO for exceptional leading professional learning across 27 different charter, uh, networks even across the country.

Michael Conner: For those of you who, who do not know Dr. Paul Miller from Rochester, New York, what song describes your leadership signature within the ecosystem?

Dr. Paul Miller: Song, uh, you know, that's a good question. I always have to go with my theme song, uh, which would be, uh, juicy by Notorious Big, you know, and that's, that's always gonna be, um, you know, if you don't know now, you know, you know, because it's always gonna be about the struggle and then make it from the struggle to, to trying to, uh, live more of a lavish life.

Dr. Paul Miller: So, [00:06:00] so that's always my, my theme song that, uh, always runs a loop on my head, in my head and, and, uh, uh, pushes and motivates me. So, same thing. And I think the two should intersect between leadership, personal, and the professional should intersect because my personal values need to guide my leadership values.

Dr. Paul Miller: And so I try to bring the authenticity and the struggle to, uh, leadership as well as, as just, uh, you know, my personal endeavors.

Michael Conner: Yeah. Dr. Miller, you know, I I, I love that song, right? Authenticity. And look, I, we know that, you know, uh, the Notorious BIG Biggie was just him and Tupac. I mean, they were genius.

Michael Conner: They were, but they were both geniuses with how they were used in words. I remember from that song, juicy Birthdays was the worst days. Now we sit, we sit, champagne, birthday, come on, man. I mean, yeah, big biggie. In in that, in that, [00:07:00] in that track was just amazing. But you're right. When you think about the connectivity between the work that you're doing now, and then we're gonna go in depth with the background, the trajectory to how you got to being this, this bestselling author six times, uh, where you've written books that have just have influence and impact within the educational ecosystem, that alignment, that paralyzation of authenticity.

Michael Conner: You know, exudes within every single thread of your work, Dr. Miller. See you, you, you might be a biggie guy. Here's the difference. I'm, I'm a PAC guy, so, you know, I, I, I, I, I like, I like Tupac, you know, biggie. I just wish that they would've been able to came together towards the end of that. But absolutely great song is

Michael Conner: selection.

Dr. Paul Miller: Appreciate, I, I appreciate, uh, uh, pop, you know, uh, me Against The World is one of my favorite albums. You, you know, then, and, uh, there was quite a few. I, you [00:08:00] know, I appreciate, you know, uh, Machi Bailey, I appreciate almost all of, uh, his work as well. It's just not, you know, it just doesn't do it for me the way that Biggie does, but I I, I do appreciate it.

Michael Conner: Yeah. Yeah. You know what? It is funny you bring that up, Dr. Miller, because if I had a, somebody asked me. What, what is my song that describes my leadership signature? There's two of them. One is me Against the World in Tupac. Okay, so good call with that doc. You know me really well and the second you wouldn't have think of it, James Brown.

Michael Conner: Super bad. So those are my two songs with that. But Doc, I want to first, and you heard me say this before, and I want to congratulate you again for becoming the CAO. At Exceptional, which provides oversight for my audience out there. Exceptional provides oversight to 27 different charter schools and networks in the Monroe County, as well as Western New York.

Michael Conner: But what I want you to do, Dr. Miller, [00:09:00] is to unpack your responsibilities as a Chief Academic Officer for Exceptional. And now that you're there, what is the vision to improve the overall quality of leadership instructional effectiveness within the schools that you serve? And how will that direct, how will that direct work look like in context?

Dr. Paul Miller: Right, right, right. So exceptional started some time ago, but when exceptional was started, and it was started by some folks who weren't educators, and they were, they just really wanted to give back and, and they really wanted to help provide support for the charter sector. Um, and the reason being is not because, um, there's, they have anything against districts.

Dr. Paul Miller: So, um, many times people refer to the, the, the district schools, and they say public schools, but charter schools are public schools as well, like in New York State Charter to have a, uh, to have a, uh, private charter schools [00:10:00] illegal at this point in time. So you, it's, there's only public charter schools in New York state, and so.

Dr. Paul Miller: But people have a, uh, a need to help charters because of the funding gaps. So there's a huge funding gap here. Specifically, Rochester sees it worse than a lot of the other cities in New York state. So Rochester receives about 55 cents on the dollar comparatively to some other places that get quite a bit more like New York City, they, uh, get around 19,000 per child.

Dr. Paul Miller: Albany gets almost 17 per child, but Buffalo, Rochester, and Syracuse get a lot less. And it, there's a complicated formulas that we could talk about, but my point being is the reason why, uh, these folks came to fruition was that because of the gaps, we gotta do something to support, because there's nearly 10,000 kids who were in charter schools and they c composed of about 98% black and brown kids in about 90% poverty.

Dr. Paul Miller: Um, and almost all of the schools are within the circumference of, of impoverished neighborhoods. This may be [00:11:00] three or four that are in some of the surrounding areas here. And so they came together. And they were like, what are they gonna do? They ended up devising something called the Common App. So there's a common application that is for all the 27 schools, which will be 29 in the fall.

Dr. Paul Miller: 'cause two new schools are coming. One is Green Tech, Rochester, one that, um, I'm part of that founding team. And then there's Brick is also coming. So there's um, 29 schools as of the fall. But with that being said, they wanted to, uh, how do they support them? And there was no common application. So when, so parents, it wasn't complicated.

Dr. Paul Miller: So if parents went to a district school, they could go one place and apply versus. Applying for multiple schools. So they solved that problem and for a long period of time, that's what exceptional was. The majority of what they did is they created, uh, good Schools Rock, which is the, where the common app is housed.

Dr. Paul Miller: Also exceptional did [00:12:00] some things where they would contract support services out to schools and districts and to, I'm sorry, to the charter schools. Uh, I didn't mean to say districts, but charter schools. And, um, they would help support the schools by paying for some of the services. Um, but what they realized was there was a hole in the need because, um, even though they were doing a lot of good, there would be people within.

Dr. Paul Miller: The schools that challenged the exceptional because they're, they didn't have a real educator on their team. They, they, they were all business community, great people who were doing some amazing things. Um, but they wanted to bring some authenticity with education. So I was at Charter Champions and, um, we realized that we were going to have some financial issues moving forward, that we weren't going to get the funding that we needed.

Dr. Paul Miller: But, uh, myself and the CEO of, uh, exceptional, uh, Reverend Steven Johnson, we decided [00:13:00] that if we could come together, that we could get so much more done. And so if I could bring over the services that we were doing over at Charter Champions and I could help support from an academic standpoint, um, what they were doing, that exceptional and exceptional was in a good spot or is in a good spot to continue to raise some money and, um.

Dr. Paul Miller: They, they make, uh, they, they, they move well and are well respected within the business community and, and the district and just take a, a, a really good stance on things. So I moved over. So I moved over, um, and almost like a merger of a sorts. I brought all the services from Charter Champions. So now that's gonna be offered or is being offered through Exceptional, where we are now providing a pipeline for the schools as well.

Dr. Paul Miller: So one of our big pieces are putting more educators, specifically educators of color back into the schools. So in. The last three and a half years, [00:14:00] we've put over 3000 applicants in front of schools. Um, we have, uh, we've done teacher, uh, new teacher institutes and workshops and trainings. We've done some other things to try to provide community support and community engagement.

Dr. Paul Miller: Um, and so like even just last week for Christmas Exceptional, uh, due to some connections, we were able to partner with Rock Royal and we gave out over 400 toys back to the community. And again, we, we reached out to charter schools, but we reached out to all community members and we had a line around the corner for people coming to get toys.

Dr. Paul Miller: And it was about just filling gaps for the community and doing things in need. It wasn't specifically a, a, a charter school thing, but um, we're also going to be. Hyper-focused on improving the literacy rates in Rochester. So we have some goals to try to make sure that all of the schools are performing with higher rates of proficiency, whereas, you know, Rochester, for those who are listening who aren't [00:15:00] aware, Rochester has some of the lowest proficiency rates in the country, um, is, is Rochester like the third poorest city in the country?

Dr. Paul Miller: Often highest murder rates per capita in New York state, uh, that school district last year was 6 46 out of 6 46, I believe. A year ago. The proficiency rate was like, or maybe two years ago, was like 2% in, in math and 8% in ELA. And so right now I think it's hovering around 18 and 20, which there's been some improvements and some gains.

Dr. Paul Miller: And the charter schools usually, typically on average outperform the districts here by about three to 4%, three to four times. I'm sorry. So three to four times outperforming. So where, um, you know, when it was. When it was, I think last year, the proficiency was 12% must of the charter school was somewhere between 36 to 48% proficiency.

Dr. Paul Miller: Still not good enough, like it's hovering under state average for the charter schools as well. So we gotta do what we [00:16:00] can to help support that and push the charter schools to do better as well and get their proficiency rates up and and exceptional is really in the fight to try to support that.

Michael Conner: Yeah.

Michael Conner: Yeah. Dr. Miller, you, one thing that I, and to my audience, I remembered over the summer, Dr. Miller had invited me to one of his professional learning sessions that he had with classroom practitioners, ranging from the 27 schools. Now, the two new network Screen Tech, absolutely love that. Shout out to the founding principal of that, Dr.

Michael Conner: Kristin Richards, and then also Bri coming to Rochester. But the way Paul, Dr. Miller presents is so captivating and compelling. I also saw him speak a well-attended session. Roughly it was over a hundred people. That was at his session at the 50. Uh, 53rd annual Napsi conference that was held in Chicago.

Michael Conner: And I could just only infer Paul, now that you're with exceptional, that you are going to really [00:17:00] create this level of coherence in the context of instructional quality and pedagogical effectiveness and the intentionality that you have, that I saw you in two different sessions. One with teachers, one with broad leaders, just absolutely exceptional the way that you deliver that delivered a pd.

Michael Conner: I just cannot wait to see your broader impact within the Rochester community in much more, in a broader sense now, in this new concentrated focus role as the CAO overseeing, uh, 29 charter schools, but. Dr. Miller. Many have thought about writing a book. Many. I I only, I only want, I only want, I only wrote one brother.

Michael Conner: I'm working on the second.

Dr. Paul Miller: Yeah. That, that's amazing. Still.

Michael Conner: Yeah. I'm working on the second, but man, you got just as many books out as Michael Jordan got championships six. Right. And we're gonna talk about two here in depth, but can [00:18:00] you just, overall, I know that you have six books out, but can you provide a first to third floor elevator introduction overview of your books and what pushed you to publish these texts at a national level?

Michael Conner: And congratulations, because over 50% of 'em, from what I understand, are bestsellers. So we'll love to hear your, your description of your books.

Dr. Paul Miller: So, uh, you know, it was interesting because some years ago I had sat down and have a conversation. I met this brother at. Again, I feel like God has aligned my life with good people and has put me in place with people when, when I, I need folks.

Dr. Paul Miller: Right. And so whether it's been you or whether it's been other people that, um, have, there's been alignment. So there's this brother that I met, um, and he was in, he did trainings for the government. And so he, he, we were sitting down and, um, I look at him like, uh, uh, definitely as a mentor and, and he has just poured into me whenever we have the opportunity to get together.

Dr. Paul Miller: And so, [00:19:00] and his name is Jeff. And so when Jeff poured into me, he said something like, uh, and our relationship at this time was rather new as friendship, but he was just very open and willing to share. And he said. If you wanna take your career trajectory to a heightened state or, or be able to speak and, and be next level.

Dr. Paul Miller: He said, you need products. He said, you get great results. Like I, you know, I led schools that were 97% black and brown young men and 90% poverty. But I average a 95% graduation rate, a hundred percent acceptance in college, 25 million scholarship money every year for, uh, you know, years and years, for 11 years when I was there as the CEO.

Dr. Paul Miller: Um, so I've been able to build systems of work, but he said, unless you got some products, it's not gonna mean anything. And so I, he pushed me and he kind of lit a fire. And so I went back and, um, I was able to do a turn turnaround of, you know, I, I had one, my first book, which was. My research and I [00:20:00] turned it into a book.

Dr. Paul Miller: And, and then while I was doing that, I also started writing the second book and, and trying to figure out the process. And I wouldn't say that, that I'm, I'm not Shakespeare, right. So, so, you know, you, you, it's a learning process and I will say I believe that it's gotten, it's gotten better, um, and, and gotten to a point where I believe it's, it's, I'm producing work that I believe all of it was.

Dr. Paul Miller: Very useful and has been helpful for people, but also now I'm producing work that people actually want to read and that I, I believe if they read it, will help motivate, inspire, and change their lives and help transform, you know, and, and, and most of my, my books are really finding beauty in the struggle and how do we change our mindsets so that we can be the people that we wanna be, but also we can now in turn.

Dr. Paul Miller: [00:21:00] Utilize our new found mindsets to help others become the people they want to be. And so, you know, it's about transformation. It's about change. It's about unpacking your bags, your baggage, and, and so that you can be better for, for, you know, yourself, for kids, for your spouse, for, for, for other adults. And you can be the people that you're meant to be.

Dr. Paul Miller: So you can move from your gutter to your greatness. And, uh, and you know, and that's really what, um, it's all about for me, is changing mindsets. And that's the overall theme that I would say goes across, um, most if not all of the books.

Michael Conner: Dr. Miller, I appreciate your books and we're gonna be speaking about two of 'em.

Michael Conner: And one of 'em is kind of like a catchphrase where I, I assess myself, is this the good me or is this the hood? Me? But we're gonna get, we're gonna get into it,

Dr. Paul Miller: right? Right,

Michael Conner: right. When, when we talk about change in mindsets, right? And you use some key words. I, I would even call them meta themes, right? Within all your books is motivational, [00:22:00] inspiring and transforming, right.

Michael Conner: But overall change in the mindsets. I want to, I want to, I want to keep that phrase there, right? Change in mindsets for transformation, motivation and being inspirational. Because your book, right, and you, you highlighted just a moment ago from the gutter to greatness, right? To me and to my audience. I read that, that was one of the first books you gave me, Paul.

Michael Conner: I, I dissected it, but you know, me and my analytical brain, right? I started moving, I started moving towards this. Scientific, transformative, transformative nodes, processes that can be underscored within any type of change management, continuous improvement methodology or mechanism for leaders. I viewed it Dr.

Michael Conner: Miller, you're gonna laugh when I say this, right? I viewed this as a profound story where crowdsourcing design can be applicable for systems level transformation. Now, I want to provide another [00:23:00] context to it. If I was this book from Gutter to Greatness, right? I would use it in a doctoral class using the case study method to unpack specific themes around targeting strategies to change, uh, to change educational systems, to change models, right?

Michael Conner: Because at the core is about students. Now, doc, high level, again, from gutter to greatness, right? What was in that text, and I want you to define greatness for my VFE audience. How do we design schools that reach students to ensure there's a personal pathway of greatness and whereas realized for them?

Dr. Paul Miller: Got you.

Dr. Paul Miller: So I think starting with, uh, defining what gutter means, and so, uh, the G stands for grieving, uh, your past. So u use the, um, use and develop the ability to understand, especially as, uh, for all people. But when I'm speaking [00:24:00] to men of color, we often don't, it's not safe for us to, uh, to dig into our emotions, our feelings, you know, we don't walk up to each other and say, Hey, uh, Dr.

Dr. Paul Miller: Conner, I, I, I think I need therapy, man. You know, because, because I need help with this. It's not just a. It's not one of the first things until you feel trust. And even when you feel trust, you know, within our culture, often being vulnerable like that is not always seen as, um, a positive seen as a weakness.

Dr. Paul Miller: And so be willing to grieve your past and, and it's okay. Um, you know, anytime there's a loss, you need to go through your grieving passes. They, um, the grieving time and, you know, you go through the different stages of grief and then you, you know what, as you're grieving learn, and the you means understand your wound.

Dr. Paul Miller: So you know what is, what does the wound, what really hurts you, what really affected you? What is it that's [00:25:00] clogging your gutter? So if you think about your gutter, what is clogging it is if there's debris in a gutter, uh, for. It's going to create a backup. It's gonna create damage to your outside of your roof, your inside of your house, and, and the exterior of your house, right?

Dr. Paul Miller: But once you remove that and you figure out what it is, the water will run freely. So that's understand what the wounds are. Then once you understand it, you gotta tell the truth about it, you know? So we don't often, uh, talk about it. We don't tell the truth about it. We hide it. We're ashamed of it. We need to speak it and, and tell the truth about it because you know what?

Dr. Paul Miller: That really happened to us. So if you were abused as a child. You know what, that really happened to you. You know, for me there was things that happened to me. So like when I say that meaning there was, I went through domestic violence, I went through hard times and hardships that affected the way that I went through [00:26:00] being left alone and, and feeling unloved and unwanted.

Dr. Paul Miller: And it's turned into and manifested itself into how I am as a person, how I am as a leader, how I am as a partner. And so I've had to, uh, I had to understand it and then I've had to tell the truth about it. And then what it also has been is the, the other t is I have to, uh, turn my pain into my purpose.

Dr. Paul Miller: And so I have to, you know what? I have to take all this pain that I have, but I have to think about what's my why, what am I deeply connected to, and how do I turn my pain into my purpose so that I can be purposeful and intentional and I can then. E equip myself with the tools that I need. So equipping myself with the tools that I need because you know what?

Dr. Paul Miller: You're, you're the master of your, your shipment, the captain of your soul. So, so I have to equip myself. So [00:27:00] yeah, I had to write this book to help start the healing process. Still going through the healing process. I had to get therapy, I had to talk to people. I had to write, I had to journal, I had to do what, I had to find the outlets that I needed to equip myself with the tools instead of sitting in that old mindset of how it used to be.

Dr. Paul Miller: And continuing that same mind frame as I go forward. And then as I'm healing, I have to stand in it and rise that R is rising. So, and rise to be the king and queens that, that you all are. Rise so that so, and not go back to what was there. Because once you've, once you've risen, move forward into the light that is shining in front of you.

Dr. Paul Miller: And so that's, that's what the, the gutter is all about. That's what, and so when you apply that also to, to schools and making, uh, best practices, I think what it comes down to, [00:28:00] uh, Dr. Conner is that as individuals and people and as leaders, for all my leaders out there, if you're not the best version of yourself, uh, you're not leading properly, you're not modeling the way.

Dr. Paul Miller: You're not doing the five tenets of leadership, uh, that s and positives say, uh, create the best organizations, which would be modeling the way or creating a shared vision, enabling others to, uh, I'm sorry, challenging the process, enabling others to act, and then, um, encouraging the heart, right? But the first starts, were modeling the way.

Dr. Paul Miller: And so if you're not working on your own healing, I guarantee you're not being authentic and your authentic self isn't showing up and your values aren't aligning to the school's values and your values not aligning to the school's values are making it so the school isn't driven from a mission aligned place that is going to create.

Dr. Paul Miller: People working together through collective efficacy. Right. And because we know that [00:29:00] CTE Collective teacher efficacy based on John Hattie's research shows that that's what moves the needle the most is creating, uh, schools that have healthy people and happy people that believe in the mission and vision that are led through values because they have trust within each other.

Dr. Paul Miller: And so those are the things that if a school is not doing that, which when I talk to most leaders, most leaders don't care about any of that. They skip by it and they just wanna go to the work. What happens is when they, when they skip by it and they just go through the work, they're missing out on really developing people, developing places.

Dr. Paul Miller: Yeah. We need to develop the systems and I could give you a system for almost everything, right? But if you're not going to develop the people, if you're not gonna create the environment that's needed, you're going to miss out. And it starts with you doing the work on yourself. You know, even in my other book, we need to do better changing the, the mindset of children through, uh, family, community, and education.

Dr. Paul Miller: And that part two is the teacher's guide [00:30:00] that's all about like, taking specifically all people but teachers through, uh, six different stages to end up, uh, working on themselves so they can be better for their kids, but they also can do these lessons with their kids. So they work on under, and it's about building empathy because a lot of it is, our teachers don't always understand our kids 'cause they often come from different communities.

Dr. Paul Miller: And so it's about. Understanding what, uh, the struggles of life look like. And then what's your identity? And then how did the past affect the, the present and what did that look like for the kids that you service? And then how do you overcome learn helplessness? How do you, uh, support your families and communities?

Dr. Paul Miller: And then six, last but not least is developing a championship mindset with it all. And so if you, if you go back there, I hope you, you see a common theme, even though it's said a little bit differently and is given differently, it's still a common theme of changing mindsets. 'cause if we can be better for [00:31:00] ki for ourselves, we're gonna be better for the kids.

Dr. Paul Miller: We service

Michael Conner: Dr. Miller. Uh, just an, an absolute exceptional response right to my, to my audience, right? And the way Dr. Miller unpacks gutter, it really adheres to pneumonic device of the, the alignment. When, when Dr. Miller was unpacking this, grieving your past. Understanding, telling the truth, turning pain into purpose, equipping yourself with the tools you need and rising.

Michael Conner: Now, Dr. Miller, when you were, you were providing your answer, I started to unpack it in a variety of different ways. I kept on referencing back to Martin Berman's work, and he wrote, he, he wrote a, an abstract, it was called Pedagogy of the Poverty. Right? And everything you described is the antithesis to counter pedagogy of [00:32:00] poverty.

Michael Conner: Specifically you talked about empathy and moving away from a deficit mindset to this asset-based mindset where it is in, in essence, a strengths-based model. Dr. Miller, this is a sub-question because again, when we talk about leaders, right, having the necessary capacity. To look at it from this kind of like this vulnerable state where it's okay to exhibit that level of vulnerability to model the pneumonic device of gutter, as I like to say, grieving your past, understanding, telling the truth, turning pain into purpose, equipping yourself with the tools that you need in rising from a, a capacity standpoint.

Michael Conner: You, you referenced back to collective teacher efficacy number one on Hattie's work as you underscored in your statement. How do, how do we collectively reach this level [00:33:00] of efficacy when we have to define it from this gutter lens?

Dr. Paul Miller: I, I think you, uh, reach it by, by not shying away from it. By not running from it.

Dr. Paul Miller: 'cause running from it won't save you. Right? And so as people and as individuals, a lot of times what happens is there's, there's Dr. Michael Conner, and then there's Mikey. Right? Or Mike, right.

Michael Conner: I, I love the example. Yeah.

Dr. Paul Miller: And so, uh, Dr. Conner has risen to all kinds of success through his career. Like, and some of the success that I'm aware of.

Dr. Paul Miller: I know that you have been able to be the top a hundred administrators in the country. You have successful tech platforms that are used all over the world. You've been a successful superintendent that's ran district where you're, you, you've gotten all kinds of [00:34:00] results, you know, and so, uh, what people see, and the people that you service and the people that are, you are a leader amongst, they see Dr.

Dr. Paul Miller: Michael Conner and they see this, this man who's achieved all of these things, right? Um. But the truth of it is, is a lot of times, as, as I, I speak for, as a, as a man, right? And, and you can add your own testimony, but we hide the personal things that we've been through. You've hide those wounds, you've, that you've hid the time that you got punched in the eye somewhere.

Dr. Paul Miller: And I'm not saying that happened, right? I don't know if it did or didn't, but, or, or, or you and, and metaphorically, right? Or you've hi hid something that has happened. Well,

Michael Conner: we got Dr. Miller, we got punched in the eye by, by my son on Thanksgiving at that.

Dr. Paul Miller: Absolutely. We, and we hide that, right? And, and so, no, I'm gonna tell the truth about it, right?

Dr. Paul Miller: He got me and, and there was nothing I couldn't do about it, but [00:35:00] it did scar me deeply. But at the end of the day. You know, we, we don't share those things. We don't talk about those things. And, and most of the time you don't go into work talking about those things. And I'll give you an example that, um, that I like to, to give for something that, to bring it home.

Dr. Paul Miller: So I was at work and performing, and I was performing, uh, you know, like my schools were, get the school's getting results. We were, we were doing dope, amazing things, but I still don't think I was doing my best or as good as I could do. And a lot of times in your head you're thinking that you're better than you are.

Dr. Paul Miller: Right? And so I have to you one, I think. People in education need to humble themselves. 'cause a, if you're not getting results, you're not that good. So like that's one thing, right? And, and I'm gonna tell you the way it is. And then second thing is you, well, let me back up to that first thing because if you're, 'cause this bothers me, man.

Dr. Paul Miller: I don't go back to my story. But if people are not getting results. Drives me nuts when people [00:36:00] say, oh, there was such amazing Dr. Such and such and such an amazing, um, uh, amazing administrator. He, you know, because he was a nice guy, but if the kids aren't getting results, if they're not performing, if they're not doing what they're supposed to do and educating, and he wasn't that good of educating, it might be an amazing human being, but he's not that good of an educator and there he should have probably stopped and asked for help.

Dr. Paul Miller: He should have reached out. But education is a, is a, or is, and you wouldn't think this, but education is a, a platform of many egos. And, and people within education often don't wanna admit that they need help with support. And usually it becomes to their own personal trauma because they're insecure and they don't want to give away that, I don't know, or I need help and I need somebody to help me.

Dr. Paul Miller: So I get back to all of those things to say. I was doing a pretty good job. I was getting results, but I probably wasn't getting as good of results that, that numerically we were. But internally, how did my people [00:37:00] feel? Was I doing the best job that I could do? Was I leading them in all the ways that I could because I was missing something that was important?

Dr. Paul Miller: And so we did this exercise, it was like, you know, we have the opening days and we often focus on mission, vision, values. And I, I pushed those things. And so we did this values exercise, and one of the things they said on the values exercise, what do you value the least? And so I did the exercise and then I went home.

Dr. Paul Miller: At the time I was married, my ex-wife now. And so I went home to her and I, and I said, hun, let's, let's babe, let's try this exercise. We did it at work and it was great, and I would love to hear your back. And I think I'm, you know, so I'm thinking I'm, I'm about to get some cool points and I'm trying to talk to her and all this other stuff.

Dr. Paul Miller: And so. We do the exercise and the answer that I gave. So I had my list of things that I don't value, and when she saw that list, she stopped talking to me for about two weeks. And so what, [00:38:00] and the ladies who are listening to this are gonna be mad at me too, but I don't feel like this anymore. I was wrong and I've worked hard to improve.

Dr. Paul Miller: Let me start with that. So my answer was, I, I really don't value communication. And so when I was, and I was feeling like that, and I think I put it on my work answer too, that I don't value communication. So how could I not value communication, but consider myself to be a, uh, a, a astute leader or be this great leader if, even if I'm pretending like, I wanna hear you.

Dr. Paul Miller: I was at a point where, uh, even I don't really give a shit. I don't really give a care that I, you know, and I don't, I'll act like I wanna listen to it, but I really. Am I sincerely, genuinely wanting to communicate? And the answer probably would've been, no. I think I was covering it up good. But, uh, you, you know, and then I had to figure out why, why did I feel like that?

Dr. Paul Miller: And so she didn't talk to me for like two weeks. 'cause she said, that's your problem. You don't care about communicating and if you don't care [00:39:00] about communicating, how are we gonna be married and all this other stuff. And what I realized was it was due to some of my wounds. And it wasn't that I don't like to communicate, I didn't wanna communicate with her and I didn't wanna communicate with her.

Dr. Paul Miller: I think it was also affecting how I communicated at work because I was shut down to communication because she would often make me feel unloved, unwanted, and uncared about, because. Our relationship. And because of going back further, that's how I felt growing up. And I had to dive in and figure that out.

Dr. Paul Miller: And as I figured out that I felt like that growing up and she was making me feel like that made it so I was afraid or didn't want to communicate with her. And so I had to start being conscious. And so consciously working on that and working on the healing that was needed behind that and figuring out where it was coming from, telling the truth about it, then I had to equip myself with figuring out where it came from and then so I could rise into a better future of [00:40:00] leading people differently.

Dr. Paul Miller: And what I realized was is communication was is the first and foremost. It's one of the biggest priorities on my list now. Because without it, people aren't going to effectively work together. You know, they need to understand the why. They need to understand the how, but that is something that as a leader.

Dr. Paul Miller: I had to admit that I wasn't doing well and that I could get better. And if I wanted to get to the success that I wanted to see, I had to say, man, there's stuff I need to work on.

Michael Conner: Yeah. Dr. Miller, you know, and why I love that, right, is not only do you continuously model the behaviors of vulnerability, I I, I think too, especially now and what I'm calling AC 2035 ready, the AC stage of education, we have to be able to now be keenly aware of where we're at [00:41:00] and then moving forward with the necessary moving forward with this acceptance or acceptance, and then the strategies to be able to address some of that previous grief or the previous hurt.

Michael Conner: And that's very intentional. Right. It's very intentional. And the reason why I said that the, the gutter from greatness can be used as a primary text in a doctoral class is how do we now teach that within our students? Right? And that's where now, and interjecting that or interfacing that into the instructional model where, yeah, you, you're getting your, your, your, your academic acceleration, your execution through standards, through innovation and everything.

Michael Conner: But how do we now teach students to be aware, have that level of awareness and acceptance, and then the necessary strategies to work in internally, having that intentional introspect to be able to move forward. That I, [00:42:00] I I love that doc.

Dr. Paul Miller: Now, now, you know, so Mike, that's why I, I was very purposeful. And thank you first of all, but I was very purposeful in creating, um, the 21 day challenge to go along with it, the workbook, which is moving from Your Gut of Greatness, which is, it's, it's actually 24 days of challenges.

Dr. Paul Miller: 'cause they say it takes 21 days to break a habit. So I created 'cause and initially what, going back to kind of just dig into the, the book thing for a second is when I wrote the book, um, it was taking longer than I wanted to get it, uh, um, to get it all edited and finalized and, and into stores and those things.

Dr. Paul Miller: But something put on my spirit that it's taking longer because there's more to do. And so, and so what I did was, is I created the workbook, which is, uh, 24 days called The 21 Day Challenge. Um, and it's 24 days of challenges to actually, um. Help people to break their cycles and start doing the work. [00:43:00] So, and as an online course, there's all those pieces, and I'm not using this as a sales pitch to really, but what I, what I am trying to say is this is something that people can actually do to, to work through some of the issues and help themselves.

Dr. Paul Miller: And, and it's simple. It's not rocket science, it's not, you know, it's not theoretical in nature, it's, it's actually doing the work and taking and having the discipline to actually. Put yourself on this journey of this challenge so you can begin the transformation needed. And it's all for you. It's not for anybody else to see unless you wanna share it.

Dr. Paul Miller: So, so yeah, tho those are things that were very intentional and purposeful. Like you're, you're saying, 'cause I want people to actually do the work and then I wanted them show how. And then in the 21 day challenge I did the work and I put my challenge in there so that people could see that I wasn't just talking about it.

Dr. Paul Miller: They could see I was actually being about it.

Michael Conner: Yeah. Yeah. Dr. Miller, to my audience, the Gutter from [00:44:00] Greatness again, that was one of the first books that Dr. Miller gifted me when I moved, when I moved to Rochester. So it is a great, great, great book. Please support Dr. Miller with that. You'll, you'll find it very resonating.

Michael Conner: And of course, at the end, Dr. Miller, we always provide our contact information at the end. I'm sure that people would reach out to you, but another text, right, that I think that you wrote was a genius text. The Good me and the hood. Me, you know, I always, you know, and to my audience, Dr. Miller and I, we always, we always joke around.

Michael Conner: I'm like, no, no. That's the good me, right? I was like, no, no, that's the hood me in there, but a genius text on how you wrote it. It, it, it, it explains the duality, the duality perspective of students coming from marginalized environments, right? And for my audience, the themes from the book, it meticulously, meticulously challenges the perceived notions about the hood.

Michael Conner: And that's why I truly appreciate this text. The hood should not be viewed as a deficit. And, [00:45:00] and I think that you were able to articulate that in, in, in this really profound and concise manner. But the hood in your text, it represents culture, it represents resilience, and it represents the community in this interconnected manner.

Michael Conner: So I want you to put this perspective, put this from a perspective of the AC state of education, Dr. Miller, and that's the after COVID-19. How do we shift educational and societal perspectives, mindsets to honor the both good me and the hood, me within our students in today's classrooms?

Dr. Paul Miller: Yeah. Yeah. And this was written for kids, um, you know, in a voice that I hope that they can understand.

Dr. Paul Miller: Um, and I think putting it into perspective is the things that our kids have seen and are seeing and see daily that's going to, that's going on around them. But again, if we could start working on healing and we could help our kids to start addressing [00:46:00] the things that are going on with them inside of them, the feelings that they're, that they're going through or dealing with earlier, um, what this book is about is, is trying to find the, the right voice where we all have that voice and we all have that, that conscious.

Dr. Paul Miller: We all have the, the good and evil, right? We all have that, and that voice is inside of, of all of us. And there's times that we have, uh, listened and there's times that we don't listen. And usually they both come with consequences, whether it be good or bad consequences. But if we can get our kids. To start self-actualizing enough to start healing enough to hear those voices and not turn them off, regardless of the circumstances that they may be going through their path is going to be so much easier and it's going to move so much quicker because they're gonna avoid certain pitfalls.

Dr. Paul Miller: And that's what this is all about. But as educators, what is our [00:47:00] obligation and our duty to helping our kids understand and find this voice that we know is inside of them, instead of just feeling like they're going to find or be a victim to their circumstances? Because how often do we see it? Again, it comes down to the mindset.

Dr. Paul Miller: Do we see as individuals and even with our kids that we service and that we, uh, our, our, our, our parents too, that we're educators too, that we're, that we work with, do we see that people often get typecast as because of their circumstances? Into the villain or the victim and that they're not going to make it.

Dr. Paul Miller: And the predictions that get made on their lives often can be looked upon as very negative. Um, and often by our own teachers and our own educators and our own leaders in our buildings, um, because of where they're coming from. Oh, this, this kid, he watches mom shoot up heroin, or this kid, uh, they don't have any food.

Dr. Paul Miller: Or This kid, you know, didn't turn in his homework, this kid. But if we can [00:48:00] teach people and we can teach our kids to hear the right voice and to help and heal themselves and move in the right direction and find success regardless of those circumstances, I think we've done our jobs.

Michael Conner: Absolutely. And Dr.

Michael Conner: Miller, you contextualize. I, I always like to say this tension that we see in the education ecosystem, empathy versus sympathy, right? Our students don't need a sympathy based model. They need an empathetic model to be able to accelerate their outcomes. To my VFE audience out there that are listening, the good me and Hood me is it, it's a, it's a, it's a kid's book.

Michael Conner: But this is where you, and for my classroom practitioners out there, teachers that are out there, you can actually use this book, whether it be in a shared reading activity, many lesson activity, read aloud activity. And if you want to, if you want to know what the correlating standards are from an ELA, perspective anchor standard one, anchor [00:49:00] standard two, anchor standard four, vocabulary anchor, standard five, text structure.

Michael Conner: But more importantly, you can get really deep in the context of anchor standard six, which is point of view. Like I said, it's just a, a genius written text where there's so many explicit and implicit messages that can be unwrapped and taught in depth. And I see this reciprocity. Dr. Miller, when I was reading the Good Me Hood, me and the Gutter from Greatness, where you have this connectivity from the leadership standpoint, adult standpoint, and then bringing it down to our babies generation alpha, generation Z as well.

Michael Conner: Like I said, very meticulously designed these two books. But the meta theme, or I should say the mega theme of this is around. How do we now prepare ourselves and the mindsets to, going back to those three key indicators you talked about earlier, motivation inspiring students and transforming students as well.

Michael Conner: But [00:50:00] Doc, on on, on a different note, I want to first like to congratulate you again. There's so many congratulations around Dr. Miller. Right? Congratulations to Dr. Miller because he is one of the founding members and he's a part of opening a new charter school in Rochester, New York called Green Tech Academy, K through five school, all boys that will be opening in August of 2026.

Michael Conner: The founding principal, CEO, which is Dr. Christine Richards, she has been doing a FA phenomenal job. Uh, pastor Johnson, who is the founding board president for Green Tech and then also Green Tech, Dr. Christine Richards, Dr. Paul Miller, as well as the team. They're utilizing and underscoring the Agile diagnostic and AI platform to move Green Tech from Year Zero and all of the micro implementation steps from an operational instructional standpoint to year one.

Michael Conner: So we are very, very proud to be a, just a, a slither [00:51:00] of being a part of the opening of a new, of a new school in Rochester, New York, but beyond the strategic partnership of using analytics and AI to move Green Tech from year zero to year one, focusing on an instructional standpoint and an operational standpoint and opening processes within Green Tech beyond all of that, right?

Michael Conner: Because that, that's great. Dr. Miller, why Green Tech right now in this rapidly growing educational environment?

Dr. Paul Miller: We're, we're, we approach, uh, education, uh, a little differently. And it's about building, uh, quality young people. It's about building quality staff. It's about building quality leaders. It's about building systems that work, um, so that our kids can be successful.

Dr. Paul Miller: And it's one of those places that if somebody is going to work there, something that I would say to my [00:52:00] staff previously and that people remind me of this all the time, this will probably be one of the hardest places you ever worked, because there's always gonna be one more thing. There's always gonna be one more thing asked of you.

Dr. Paul Miller: It's never going to stop. And if you're not okay with that, and so many people say, yeah, yeah, I'm okay until they get in there, right? But they, uh, if you're not okay with that, this really isn't the place for you because we have to act like. We are performing surgery and the person on the other end, if we don't perform it correctly, they're going to die.

Dr. Paul Miller: And so we have to act like performing in the surgery is someone's life on the line. And so we are putting people's lives on the line and our goal is to provide an education that helps to change and, and helps to. Make sure that they live a long, successful life because of the surgery that we just performed.

Dr. Paul Miller: And so, you [00:53:00] know, it's going to help change that trajectory for the young men here in Rochester, New York. And then my, my goal is to, is to take what we're, we're, what we're doing here, and transplant it into other communities as well, because you, you know, and I feel like I'm, you know, I almost feel like the Blues Brothers man, like on a mission from God where it's like you, you know, if there things get in the way, but it's not gonna stop it from happening.

Dr. Paul Miller: Going to create change for other communities and make sure that communities have the ability to, uh, to benefit from this type of education. You know, we're gonna, and, and which, you know, I've brought my brother here, Dr. Conner in on this. Uh, and we have developed a team of some other educators as well, where we're now not just going from one school, but we're going to try to, uh, duplicate and replicate this in many places.

Dr. Paul Miller: So we already have, uh, on the agenda to submit application for, uh, Niagara Falls in North Carolina this spring for [00:54:00] Texas in the fall. That's, that's three in 2026 that we're submitting for. Um, you know, so we got our work head out for us, and, and there's other opportunities that are popping up and other things we're doing that, you know, we wanna make sure that, uh, it, it comes to fruition before we make these big announcements.

Dr. Paul Miller: But. The goal is really to me, is how do we change communities for kids that look like us and make sure that they have the opportunity to survive because they can read, write, and do math, and they can critically think versus, um, the traditional way of just, uh, you know, uh, not giving them everything they need.

Michael Conner: Yeah. Yeah. And Dr. Miller very, very intentional. Right. And again, I, I, I look forward to not only just working with you, but just seeing your impact, right. And the broader ecosystem, domestically and, um, nationally, I should say. And you're absolutely right. Education's a civil right. We need to ensure that we bring that level of vitality, intentionality, [00:55:00] and rigor, uh, for students.

Michael Conner: Like you said, within the, the, the, the analogy that you provided, which is like a student have a surgery or we need to really have that urgency, is if where we're performing surgery, which I think we are right, and to the degree we are, we're surgically preparing our students for a future that is unprecedented, that is novel and that is uncertain.

Michael Conner: But one thing that is certain is that if we can provide the necessary skills and competencies to, to our students even at the early onset, hence the design of Green Tech Academy K through five, I, I, I think we're creating a, a strong pretext. Leading into the future, and again, thank you for your, your, your courageous work with this Dr.

Michael Conner: Miller. Because one thing that I admire and appreciate about you is that you're very candid with the truth. You're very [00:56:00] candid. Obsolete. What I like to say, this kind of like this, the, the, this, the, the, you, we bring, you bring the rigor to where the conversation needs to occur. And to some people it feels uncomfortable, but I think that in order for us to really move forward, we have to, we have to prepare our educators or leaders to feel comfortably, uncomfortably uncomfortable about the conversations that we had.

Michael Conner: Then you talked about the quality, the staff systems, everything that worked together, but more importantly, how we can be able to elevate our kids strategically with the synergy that is needed. So, good. Brother, I don't know if I can ever do this to you, but this is the last question and I'm gonna try to hold you to three words.

Michael Conner: Try to hold you to three words. I don't know if I could hold you. Doc. Doc. Nobody listens to me, right? Nobody listens to me when I say you only got three words. They go three and and expand. So take it how it is. [00:57:00] But Dr. Miller, what three words do you want our audience to leave with regarding the title of this book?

Michael Conner: We need to do better in the AC stage of education.

Dr. Paul Miller: No worries. So let's see Three words for we need to do better. It's about you.

Michael Conner: Oh, you gonna be a roof hour? Please break it.

Dr. Paul Miller: Hey, you asked me to, it's about you. You asked me the three words.

Michael Conner: Well, I'm gonna ask you three and,

Dr. Paul Miller: well, you can't ask me one thing and then move the shoreline and then tell me to do something else, and then when I don't do it, you're gonna say, I didn't do it right the first time.

Dr. Paul Miller: I don't understand that, Dr. Conner. So, so, so you can't ask me one thing and then ask me to talk some more. Hey, man, because it, it, it's, it's a about you, man. It we, the only way we can change education or change the system is if we [00:58:00] start individually changing ourselves. Because we are the ones who are contributing to the system and creating the faults and defaults.

Dr. Paul Miller: Uh, you know, it didn't get like this by itself. How did it get this way? How we've been failing kids for so many years and it'd be okay because people have allowed it to be because of a lot of adult bs because of a lot of the idiosyncrasies, the bureaucracy, the politics. I, I'll, I'll, I'll wash your back if you wash mine.

Dr. Paul Miller: Whether it's good for kids or not, it's really not. Those things are, you know, I, I understand that quid pro quo happens and all that good stuff happens, but the truth of it is, man, it's about you. What are you going to do? And I don't mean you in general, I mean your audience. What are you going to do to change it?

Dr. Paul Miller: How are you going to change you? What are you not doing? What do you need to look at? How do you need to work harder? What needs to change [00:59:00] so that you can get the results that you need to get and so that we can do better? But first of all, you gotta admit that you ain't, you ain't doing right, you ain't doing what needs to do, you know, even if you are accomplished.

Dr. Paul Miller: Is there more? Could there be more? What is it that you're missing that your ego's getting in the way of?

Michael Conner: Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Dr. Miller, it's about you. Listen, it has, you know, from somebody that absolutely just loves you as a person, poor Miller, and someone that just absolutely loves your work. Dr. Paul Miller, thank you for everything that you're doing.

Michael Conner: Like I said. I know your work intimately, what you're doing here in the Rochester community, what you've been doing in the Mur County. Um, yeah, just, you know, in, in December, around Christmas, Dr. Miller as well as you know, Dr. Johnson, who's the founding board, founding board president for [01:00:00] Green Tech, uh, they were distributing over a thousand toys, over 1500 toys to the community.

Michael Conner: Just the work that he does, it, it just, not only one that needs to be emulated across the country, but two, it is really coming in a, a, a place of, of endearment. So, Dr. Miller. Thank you for everything that you're doing. Thank you for coming on VFV during the Black History Month, during our Black Excellence series.

Michael Conner: If anybody wants to contact you regarding whether it be the gutter for the gutter to greatness, whether it be the good me hood, me, whether it be we need to do better, or any of your texts, or just to work that you are underscoring as a Chief Academic officer, how would they be able to get in contact with you?

Dr. Paul Miller: Um, the easiest way to check me out is probably going to drp miller.com, dr p miller.com. All my information's there. You, you can, uh, check it all out. You can see information about the, the educated black man. You can see from the Good me to hood me.com. You can see, [01:01:00] uh, from the gut of the greatest books, like all the different stuff is there.

Dr. Paul Miller: But drp miller.com, drrp miller.com is probably the easiest way to get ahold of me. And, uh, you can, you can message me and, and I, you know, I do a pretty good job at responding.

Michael Conner: Yeah. Dr. Miller to tell you, you remind me so much of somebody back home that I absolutely love and admire and adore, Dr. Steven Perry, he has opened up the capital prep of schools that we're seeing across the,

Dr. Paul Miller: I'm the other light-skinned guy doing the work.

Dr. Paul Miller: And, and much, much more handsome too, by the way. I, I know Dr. Perry as well, but I'm, I'm the other guy, you know, he, he is, you know, that brother wears a bow tie everywhere that I, you know, I'm too, I, I'm too cool for that. So, so, you know, and, but I admire his work too. Good, brother. You know, I respect him, but I'm the, I'm the other light skinned guy doing the work, man.

Dr. Paul Miller: I'm the more handsome one. Uh.

Michael Conner: I tell you something about you light-skinned brothers, that [01:02:00] always takes something to my heart.

Dr. Paul Miller: What's up, Dr. Perry? Man, he's a good dude.

Michael Conner: Love, love Dr. Perry. But, uh, I'm getting back to you, man. Like I said, you remind me so much of him. Your work just compliments each other. I love both of you brothers.

Michael Conner: You know, I love Dr. Perry. When I was in Connecticut, you know, I get that was my light-skinned brother right back then. It could help. Yeah.

Dr. Paul Miller: You always need to keep on around, man. We're making you look good.

Michael Conner: And I got my light-skinned brother up here in Rochester, New York, Dr. Miller, I love you so much, brother.

Michael Conner: Thank you for coming.

Dr. Paul Miller: You too,

Dr. Paul Miller: brother. Thank you for having me.

Michael Conner: Absolutely. And on that note, onward and upward. Everybody have a great evening.