At 25, 26 years old, leading a group of adults that were in their late 30s, 40s and 50s, it didn't go very well.

The team who had exceptional results really began to ice me out.

I was really fortunate at that time that I had a senior vice president that I was reporting to.

He took me under his wing and said, listen, you're going about this the wrong way.

Leadership isn't about you being the smartest person in the room or you telling people what was best for them.

Leadership is really listening to the team and helping to really remove obstacles for them so that they can be successful.

Once I was able to win the trust back of that team, we actually won sales team of the year.

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Welcome back to lead the team with number one best selling author and in demand corporate trainer, Ben Fanning.

On this podcast, the world's most innovative senior leaders share their top success strategies to motivate your direct reports, cultivate your.

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Let's get started.

Here's Ben.

Hey there and welcome back to Lead the Team.

I've got a great one coming your way today with Naomi Brezzi, who is the Chief Revenue Officer over at rnl, a leading force and higher education enrollment, student success and fundraising solutions.

With a distinguished career that includes roles at Kaplan, Open Classrooms and other innovative organizations, she brings a wealth of experience in empowering leaders and building high performance teams.

She's a passionate advocate for women in leadership and she's committed to advancing opportunities for women and fostering equitable, inclusive pathways to success.

Naomi, welcome to Lead the team.

Well, thank you very much, Ben for having me this afternoon.

I'm excited to be here to join your podcast and to talk about all things leadership today.

Let's go.

So when was the time you faced a pivotal challenge in leading a team towards a difficult goal and how did it shape your leadership today?

Well, I'll tell you about a time early on in my career that really shaped the leader that I am today.

I started my career in banking on a trading Floor.

And after being in that position for probably about two or three years, I had the opportunity.

I was hand selected by the president of the Mid Market bank to lead a team.

My first really big leadership position.

I was leading a team of older men.

I was single, I was a New York City gal.

And I came in with the attitude, I'm going to show these men a thing or two and I'm going to really lead this team.

It's going to be my way or no way or my way in the highway.

And well, as you can imagine, at 25, 26 years old, leading a group of adults that were in their late 30s, 40s and 50s, it didn't go very well.

And the team who had exceptional results really began to ice me out.

And I didn't feel like we were really gelling.

And there was conflict between myself and those that I was leading.

I was really fortunate at that time that I had a senior vice president that I was reporting to, that I had went to and was lamenting to him that I was having these difficulties leading this team.

And he took me under his wing and said, listen, you're going about this the wrong way.

That's not what leadership is.

Leadership isn't about you being the smartest person in the room or you telling people what was best for them.

Leadership is really a large percentage of the time listening to the team and helping to really remove obstacles for them so that they can be successful.

And when they're successful, you'll be successful and the organization will be successful.

I hadn't had any leadership training up until that point and my SVP at the time and I decided that maybe getting me into a leadership course would be advantageous for all of us because I was selected as a high potential employee within the organization and they didn't want to lose me and they wanted me to be successful.

So I took a leadership course and really came back with a completely different mindset.

And as I have evolved through my career, and by the way, just to close out that story, it took me probably about six months to really win back the trust of that team.

But once I was able to win the trust back of that team through listening, removing obstacles, listening to what their concerns were and where they needed help in the field, we were able to be again the most successful sales team within our group and we actually won sales team of the year.

And when I went up on stage during President's Club to accept that award, I didn't go up there on my own.

I invited my team to come up and celebrate with me.

Because it wasn't me that led that team to success.

It was all of us collectively that were successful.

And we were all, we all earned part of that celebration, not just one person, but as that.

How that really transformed me was that I really began to understand that leadership was about removing obstacles for people, really helping them to be successful.

And that was further emphasized when I went to the Ken Blanchard company.

I went to the Ken Blanchard Company at a time when I was going through some personal transition.

I had recently gotten divorced and had moved from New Jersey to Charlotte with my 5 year old daughter and couldn't travel the way that I was and took this job at Blanchard kind of thinking, ah, you know, I'll take this job.

It was at a giant, giant pay cut to myself.

I don't know about these leadership skills, they seem kind of soft.

And I'll do it until I get my feet under me here in Charlotte and figure out like, you know, how to move forward as a single parent with a young child.

And so I kind of went into this position with this mindset and I got there.

And one of the things that Blanchard culture is great at is they really put you through an intensive onboarding program.

And I really began to see the way that situational leadership and the model that Ken had developed along with his other academic partner, how this could really change lives.

And I learned the art of being a situational leader.

It's not you can't lead everybody the same way all the time.

It's how do you want them to reach a particular task or goal and where are they in their skill set and you lead that way.

The other thing that I learned from Ken was to be a servant leader.

You know the quote, leaders eat last in the army or in the military.

And I really began to understand that if I wanted to be successful, and I saw certainly did want to be successful, that I had to shift the way that I was seeing my team and working with my team and understanding again, as I've said, it's about listening to people and it could be sometimes business, sometimes they just need a 30 second therapist about something that's happening in their life outside of work and a little bit of understanding and empathy and sympathy, but really listening to what they need, helping to remove obstacles, being authentic, being genuine in the workplace.

And I have shared this with my teams throughout the year.

Listen, we spend a lot of time at work, let's try to have some fun.

But at the end of the day, your job doesn't define you.

What really matters are those that sit around your dinner table with you every night.

That's what really matters.

So if you need to go to the doctor, if you need to go to a recital, a soccer game, if you need time off, if you need to care for an elderly parent, if you need to take a pet to the vet, do what you need to do, work will always be here and we'll cover you on the back end.

Well, so many good examples in there and what a journey you've had.

Naomi, take you back to that first job you had or a first leadership role when you had to lead the team of older guys in sales and you won the big award at the end of the year.

When you came back, was there one conversation that you remember you had that allowed you start to change things or was there something you implemented in that moment that really helped you after you got that leadership training?

Because it sounds like that was instrumental in making that big leap forward.

I just really changed the way that I was showing up for the team.

This is a couple of decades ago, so I can't recall if there was one particular conversation with somebody that I had.

But I would say that it was just the way I had to change who I was and who I was showing up as a leader and my mindset and how I was showing up for work every day.

And I really, I came back, I felt very humble, right.

At 25, 26, I had a chip on my shoulder.

I had a pretty big ego.

I had just come off a trading floor.

Not many women are on trading floors.

So I kind of came from a very rough and tumble masculine environment.

And like I felt like I was a master of the universe and I came with that attitude and that wasn't helping me.

So I really had to come much more humbly.

I probably apologized to individuals or to the team and I wouldn't be surprised if I said let's.

I want to really, I want to be here to help you, not hinder you.

Oh, so good.

And yeah, what elite going to work for Ken Blanchard's company and that situational leadership model is powerful.

And I think it's, I mean it's really opened a lot of leaders eyes with that.

I will tell you that when I went to the first conference with Blanchard again, I was still kind of coming in thinking it was probably my first month or two, like thinking, I don't know about this.

I saw grown men stand and women stand in line for over an hour to meet Ken and get to the front of the line and cry and thank him because it had changed their lives.

And something in me just clicked and I said, oh my gosh, there's gotta be something to this.

Like you don't have this many people thanking you and being so grateful and appreciative of the books you've written and the teaching, unless there's really something to this.

And I really began to see the power of it when I began to deploy it in my own household with my now elementary age daughter who is very bright and she would be bringing math homework home.

And I'd be like, I don't understand what the problem is.

You're smart, you should be able to do this.

And I took a step back and I said, oh, we're reverting to Naomi's comfort zone and not what, what my daughter really needs.

And I began to deploy the skills that I had learned in situational leadership with my own child doing homework.

And it made such a difference.

I love it.

You apply it at home and then you start being able to find use of support at work and both worlds come together synergistically.

Absolutely.

I say you really learn and then eventually she'll start using it with you and then you'll know, man, I was a great teacher of that for sure.

So what's your advice for those from underrepresented groups who are on a mission to get to the C suite?

Or maybe they're already there.

I mean, I think it's really hard as a, as a woman who has been fortunate enough to.

I've been, I'm very A type personality, I'm really driven.

And about 10 years ago, somebody on my team had put the idea in my head that I could be CEO someday.

And up until that point, I never really thought it, like maybe I did somewhere in the recesses, but I never really thought that that was going to be my pathway.

And I said, you know what?

Why can't I be in the C suite?

Why can't I be on a board?

Why can't I be CEO someday?

And I really began to do a couple of things that I think really, really helped me.

And this might sound a little bit silly, but I think you need to show up every day dressing the part.

I know that I've worked from, I've worked remotely for many, many years.

I have teams that work remotely.

I am supported by teams that work remotely.

And I've seen all gamuts of the spectrum between looking somebody that looked like they just rolled out of bed to somebody that looks like they're ready to go start the day and they're ready.

So I think you really have to show up every day with an executive mentality, a leadership mentality.

And you also have to, like, look the part.

The other thing that I really began to take very seriously, and I had always taken this seriously, but now I was being very intentional, was building my network and really using my network wisely.

And it wasn't just about catching up for the sake of catching up, but being intentional with how I was using my network.

So I really began to build my network of leaders that I admired.

LinkedIn has been a phenomenal resource for me to reach out to folks I have.

I'm connected to probably more than my fair share of CEOs, college presidents, workforce development leaders, and executives.

My career has kind of, over the last 20 years or so, really fallen into adult learning, workforce development, and higher education.

And so I'm connected to CEOs from Fortune 50 to entrepreneurs, to ed Tech individuals, to college presidents, investors.

And I try to be a resource for them as much as they're a resource for me.

So really building your network, making sure that if you are reaching out to these individuals that you are using their time wisely, their time is very valuable.

So those are two things.

But I think, you know, as a woman that is an advocate for women in leadership and as being half Spanish, when I look around at the board tables that I'm in front of, I don't see people that look like me or come from my background.

And I really think that's unfortunate.

And I think that the workforce is really missing out on diverse talent that could bring another point of view to really help an organization grow.

So in the last couple of teams that I have led and listen, I love men, I've been married, I date.

But I've really been intentional about opening the doors up for other women to be leadership and people of color to be leadership, because I don't think that they always get the benefit of the doubt the way that my white colleagues do, especially my white male colleagues do.

So I think you have to be show up with a mindset of growth.

You have to bring value to your position every day.

You have to really use your network intentionally, and you have to look and sound the part if you want to be taken seriously.

You've got to be serious about what you're doing.

You're creating the world of your teams with intention, and I love that.

And it sounds like you've really had to deal with some tough work situations to be included.

Well, I don't want to age myself, but in the early days of my career, some of the things that I've dealt with, some of the names that I've been called, some of, you know, my hard work that others have taken credit for.

I didn't know how to navigate big corporations and have a voice to advocate for myself.

My parents, who are amazing people.

My dad was from the silent generation.

My mom is.

When she was a boomer, they went to one job and they did that for 40 years, and that was it.

They didn't know how to help me navigate through very professional work environment and when people were being disrespectful to me, how to really navigate that.

Unfortunately, and I say this with love in my heart for my parents, they would be like, well, Naomi, that's just the way it is.

Like, that's the way women get treated in the workplace.

If my daughter, who's now 19 years old and in college, told me some of the stories I had shared with my parents, I would have been like, hold on, wait a minute.

Give them a different playbook.

We're not doing that.

And this is what you need to do to remedy that or remediate that in the workplace immediately or where.

Wherever she might be.

Yeah.

I mean, you.

You had to figure it out, and.

You did figure it out, and it's.

Awesome that you're able to give that those and help accelerate the careers of other people.

I really.

I really think it's part of, like, my leadership philosophy.

Our job isn't to step on people's heads as they're trying to come up the ladder, but to lift.

Put our hand down and lift them up.

And if I can do that for.

For people throughout their career, I'm happy to do it.

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Go to benleads.com apply to fill out a quick form where you can let us know a little bit about yourself.

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That's beneeds.com apply what's the one trait you wish you could instill in every employee?

And why do you think it's important?

I mean, I think this goes from the board level to the C suite, all the way down to employees that might just be in their first job.

To be authentic, to be honest, and to have a high degree of integrity.

I Think right now, culturally, in the US it's very unfortunate that we're in a culture of you have to.

If you make a mistake, you can't be honest about it, you can't be authentic about it.

You have to cover yourself and kind of use a mishmash of words or magical math to get your way out of it.

And I think that's really unfortunate.

We learn by making mistakes.

And if we can make mistakes and we can't ask for help when something is hard or challenging, we're just going to keep.

Continue to make those mistakes over and over again.

Honesty and integrity and trust in the workplace are for me, my biggest pillars.

And when I'm looking to build a team or to join a team or a board, those are things that I'm looking for in those other people.

I need honesty as from them as much as I'm going to give it.

And I think we can deliver difficult news in a compassionate way that doesn't kill somebody's soul in the workplace, but brings them along.

So is this level of authenticity, do you believe it to be more nature or nurture?

Nature or nurture?

Ah, that's a good question.

I really never thought about it.

I think that, I think we're taught, especially women, that we can't be vulnerable, that we have to be like, really tough and we have to be like the guys.

I don't think we have to do that.

I mean, in my current role, I showed up to my first town hall with my team of over 70 people.

I own everything from customer success to the marketing.

So I have sales and marketing and customer success and top of funnel all the way to growth and retention, the client journey.

I showed up, really, I just told them who I was.

And it was an interweaving of my professional career with some of my life challenges.

And a lot of people said that they had never been spoken, not spoken to a leader, had never shared that honesty in their life story.

And I think, again, we spend so much time at work, a lot of times our pathways in life aren't all that different.

And I think it's okay to be vulnerable and to tell people who you are.

And I think people appreciate that.

Yes.

Cool.

That's day one live activity.

It wasn't quite day one.

Maybe it was like week one, but it was, it was early on.

All right.

Early on.

Yeah.

Well, Naomi, just read your.

Send them your resume of all your great wins and why you're so awesome and why they should be so confident in your track record on this.

But it sounds like you gave them some of the not so big success as in the challenges and that that went a long way with them.

So.

So just kind of riffing on that.

What.

When is a time you had a twist or failure in your career and how to lead to your success or growth on down the road.

I would say that one of the things that I did before coming here to, to RL was I, I was working for a company.

I was really, really excited about the opportunity.

I was, I was hired to build out the entire US operations, everything from HR to sales to marketing, the entire thing like president of U.S.

division.

And it was a very difficult position because of differences in business culture between the company I was reporting to and the task I was being asked to achieve here in the US And I was working a ton of hours.

I was really beginning to feel burnt out and I was beginning to feel that there was a misalignment between myself and the CEO and the board.

And this was quite worrisome.

And I had been at a conference and had met with one of the lead board members and we had a really difficult conversation.

And I felt in that conversation that I was spoken to in a disrespectful manner.

And I didn't want to have a conflict, a face to face conflict with this person.

And I wanted to be respectful of their position and my position.

But I flew home like on a Thursday or Friday.

And on Monday I called up the CEO and said, I'm really sorry, but I think it's time for me to like, give you my letter of resignation.

I did this with no backup plan, no golden parachute.

No, no, no plan.

It was about a month before my daughter was going to graduate from high school.

So I knew I had a big college payment that was coming up due in a couple of months.

And it was probably the best thing that I ever did for myself to take a sabbatical and to really be able to spend time with my family, to really be present for my daughter and all of her senior year festivities.

I knew that I would not have been able to have done that because of my travel schedule.

To have a wonderful vacation, to spend time with my mom in the last six months of her life.

I didn't know it was going to be the last six months of her life.

She died unexpectedly.

To read, to really find myself again, and to really think about what I wanted to do in the next iteration of my career, I had, I was very fortunate.

Through my network, I had lots of.

I had more than my fair share of opportunities and job offers, But I knew that a lot of them weren't quite right.

And I waited for the one that I felt was going to serve me best in where I wanted my career to go and where I could serve that organization the best.

And so that's when I ended up at R and L.

Wow.

There's a lot of layers.

I'm not, like, the kind of person that does things like that.

I'm very analytical.

Let me think about this.

And my mom happened to be living with me at the time, and I got up from this office here, and I walked over to her bedroom, and I said, I just quit.

And she was like, what?

She's like, your daughter's going to college in a couple of months.

What are you going to do?

And I was like, I'll figure it out.

But I know what I'm worth, and I know what I'm capable of, and I'm not.

I'm going to.

Naomi is going to define Naomi, not somebody else.

Dang.

So.

So was the.

What the person said in the environment, you just.

Were you just so outraged, like.

Like, I need to quit, or it be like, what was the.

Because that's a big change in the moment.

And a lot of leaders might say, well, I'm thinking about.

I'm thinking this may not be the right fit, but I want to start looking for a job while I have this one, Or I'm going to kind of plan ahead, or I'm going to save my.

Have a.

More of a plan.

And if.

Like, what.

How did you know in the moment, like, hey, this is.

This is what I need to do.

So I love to work.

I mean, I work a lot of hours.

I work hard.

And I just knew, like, there was a lot of other little red flags that were leading up to that, But I just knew that I could not tolerate having my alarm go off one more morning and having to come down to the office and feel like what I was giving was not valued and not appreciated.

And I just felt like I deserved it to myself and to my family, to be authentic to who I was and not to allow somebody to continue to doubt myself and beat me down.

And I just.

It wasn't something that, like, it was very unusual, but I'm really happy I did it.

And, yeah, it's.

It's important, I think, for leaders, I'm taking away just to.

The more we can know ourselves and be true to ourselves.

There's a certain confidence in that.

And knowing that wasn't the right fit.

Knowing you didn't already.

I mean, didn't have your other thing lined up.

It wasn't like, oh, we'll take this job and shove it because I'm going to be making this at this other place.

Immediately.

After that happened, I probably called like three of my most trusted advisors and I said, so this is what I've done.

And they all kind of chuckled at me.

But probably within about two weeks or so I was already interviewing.

Yeah.

Wow, the network showed up for Naomi.

It sounds like in full they did.

And I'm very grateful.

But to your other point, you've been cultivating it for years, so don't wait until you're in transition to say, oh, I need to come up with a network.

I need to work on my network.

No, and I'm always working on my network and always when I, yeah, when I, when I can help other.

Connect other people to my network, I always say, listen, I'm happy to introduce you to this CEO or to this executive, but let's really make sure it's worthwhile of his or her time because I know that if I make that introduction and it's a waste of time, that's probably going to be a connection for me that I can't go to in the future.

Again, great, great advice.

Networking that actually works.

Make sure versus yeah, yeah, we get a lot of those too, where it's hey, you know this.

But to say, hey, this could this we.

I think this and doesn't.

Doesn't mean you're always going to hit a home run when you introduce people.

But if at least say, I believe this could be of value to you because of this.

Right.

It lets them know, hey, when Naomi's calling, she's thinking through this first.

It's got to be a two way street.

And like one of the things I always ask my network if I'm asking for something, I always say, so what can I do for you?

How can I help you?

Is there something that somebody I can introduce you to?

An investor, an attorney, a company?

How can I help you?

So I always make it a two way street.

All right, so starting to, starting to wrap this up, unfortunately, because I have a ton more questions and not a lot of time to do it in.

Why?

Why education for you?

Because you started out in more like the financial side in, in the center of the financial universe, New York City.

And then you go Kim Blanchard and in Kaplan and R L, it just seems like you've really has a special niche.

And what, what is it?

That's.

That's keeping you in this space that that's undergoing a lot of change.

I mean, tons of change.

Right?

This is an easy question to answer.

So when I was in banking and in finance, I really felt like, well, at, in the moment, it was great.

I was making money to make money and I was gaining a lot of experience.

I was exposed, I did international travel, I traveled all around the US I was exposed to a lot of executives that probably I would not have otherwise had an audience to.

So I'm very, very grateful to that time in banking.

And again, when I went Blanchard was like a turning point in my career.

So when I went to Blanchard and I saw the power of adult learning in the workplace, and now I had a five year old, right, that was looking up at me, something in me clicked and I said, you know what?

I don't want my daughter to grow up in a world where she thinks making money for the sake of making money, greed is not good.

And this is, I am now in a profession where I am helping others and I'm doing that through education.

So whether it's in the workplace, adult learning, workforce development, finding unique talent to place them in the workforce or through higher education, while I may not personally be working with these learners or these students or these folks seeking a job, my teams may not be working directly with them, but what we're doing and what we're providing is creating financial and career mobility for others so that others have the opportunity to buy a house, to buy a car, to send somebody to college, to take care of their aging parents, to have a wonderful vacation, to put a pool in the backyard.

And I feel that like this is my calling in life.

Going back to something that I said earlier, it's not about putting your foot on their head as they're trying to climb the ladder, but pulling them up and helping them to be successful.

And I hope someday when I'm no longer here, that my friends, colleagues, but more importantly, but the most important person is my daughter, will look back and say, you know, my mom helped thousands and thousands of people to be financially and career successful through the work that she was doing with all of these amazing organizations she was, that were lucky enough to have her in a leadership position for them.

Wow.

Powerful response there and definitely attached to the greater why, the greater universal why.

To work in the first place.

Yeah, absolutely.

So I've got an 8th grader and a girl, and what's your advice to her for college success?

Because you, you, you were, you've worked across adult learning, right?

Children like the whole gamut of education.

And, and I'm asking this question too, in the idea of college is changing, right?

The whole system is, is evolving.

What's your advice?

How about if I give you a piece of advice, Ben?

Okay.

Give it to the parent.

That's even better.

My biggest piece of advice to a parent that has a child that's probably going to embark on some kind of career pathing over the next couple of years is just remember, this isn't your dream.

This is their dream.

Your job is to guide them.

Don't tell me that.

It's your job to guide them and to help instill the confidence as they begin to make probably some of their first and biggest adult decisions where they're going to go to school or whether they're going to go into the military or they're going to go into a trade.

It's your job to instill the confidence in them that the choices that they're making are the right for them right now.

And I would also say, and I shared this with my daughter, that, listen, just because you're starting at point A doesn't mean you're going to finish at point A.

Life has many, many chapters.

And you turn the page and it's a clean sheet.

I started my career in banking.

I went to adult learning.

I never thought that was going to be the place that I was going to end up.

I thought someday I would go back into venture capitalist or banking again or finance and retire really young with millions of dollars in the bank.

But I found a passion I didn't realize was there a little bit later in my career.

And I've had many iterations of that even in my career.

So just instilling the confidence in them and the guidance, you can guide your kids.

It's easy if you have an open and trusting relationship built already and a good foundation and they're going to do the right things.

Love that advice.

To the parents out there or if you don't have kids, to the.

Your nieces and nephews or your whatever.

Right.

We all have people in our lives that are younger, that are rising, that we want to see succeed.

Absolutely.

It's just like, how do we not get in the way of that?

And I like this word guiding.

And some of that.

And you, you kept applying back.

You kept saying the word confidence.

Get in the confidence, get in the confidence.

And that's.

That's key.

They can get sometimes paralysis.

Analysis on, am I making the right decision?

Why don't you make the decision for me versus them?

Making a decision, owning the results, and knowing that they can make that decision ultimately right on their path.

And you're right, we don't really know how our career, I mean, man, my husband all over the place.

I'd be doing all this podcasting stuff.

It's a beautiful journey.

What's your parting thought for our listeners today, Naomi?

Oh, gosh, you're going to put me on the spot here again.

I would.

I would say.

Oh, hold on, I have to think about this a second.

You have put me on the spot here, Ben.

That's good, because that's why I'm here.

Well, you've already.

One of the problems you have is you already said so many awesome things and great stories and insights.

It's hard to come up with another one.

And I would just say, like, believe in yourself if you really have a dream, like, let me back up.

Yeah, I would say just believe in yourself and, like, you know, don't.

Don't allow somebody else to define who you are.

You know, it's okay to make mistakes, it's okay to falter.

It's okay to not be sure.

But at the end of the day, we all have something valuable that we can contribute to the workplace, to society, and just keep on the path that you're going, as long as it's a straight and narrow path.

Naomi, thank you for coming on and lead the team, my friend.

It was fun.

Thanks so much, Ben.

This was a lot of fun.

It's not often that we get to talk about ourselves for an extended period of time, and I really enjoyed the time together.

It was really.

It was.

I felt like I really had to, like, be insightful about who I was.

So thank you for bringing that out.

You didn't have to, but you did.

You're insightful and very generous and I would say vulnerable and transparent and authentic.

So thank you for that.

Thank you.

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