E068 - How Can They Be So Cruel? The Real Reasons Behind Narcissistic Behavior & Motivation In A Relationship With Phoenix Gould
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Speaker 6: [00:00:00] in this episode, you will discover the real reason behind a narcissist behavior and cruelty in relationships.
Speaker: Welcome to Heartbreak to Wholeness, the podcast helping you heal from the mindfuck of narcissistic relationships and move towards the secure, peaceful woman you want to become. I am your host, Bre Wolta, Relationship Clarity Coach and EFT Certified Practitioner. Let's dive in.
Speaker 9: Welcome back to Heartbreak to Wholeness and get ready for an episode where we dive into the narcissist's mind. In this episode, you will discover whether or not a narcissist really is hurting you on purpose.
You will discover why it's impossible to find resolution with a narcissist despite your best efforts. And you will discover how to easily spot manipulation tactics, so you stop second guessing your reality. Today, I am talking with Phoenix Gold, who helps people understand and heal [00:01:00] from narcissistic relationships.
If you are completely at a loss trying to understand how someone could hurt you like they have, this episode will blow your mind and give you a whole new perspective on narcissistic behavior. I know you're going to love it because I know you've been going down rabbit holes, trying to figure out how they can be doing what they're doing, why they're doing what they're doing and trying to understand what is seemingly incomprehensible and be sure to stick around to the end of the episode where I will pull an Oracle card that will offer you a message that you can use this week to stay more conscious in your healing.
Bre Wolta: Welcome to the podcast Phoenix.
Phoenix Gould: I'm delighted to be here with you.
Bre Wolta: I'm very excited for this conversation because I am asked over and over and over again by clients and people who reach out to me the behavior of the narcissist and how are they doing what they're doing? Why are they doing what they're doing? [00:02:00] And so I can't wait to dive into depth with you about all of the components of a narcissist's brain.
Bre Wolta: So let's start with that, that first question, the Do they know what they're doing when they're acting cruel, when they're, when they are manipulating, when they're gaslighting, they have awareness of what they are doing?
Phoenix Gould: Well, in my understanding, there are different levels of awareness. I think that some of them are not aware at all, and some of them are very aware. You know, it depends, but yes, there are some that are very aware and they're very calculated and they know what they're doing.
And there's some that really just are reacting to an internal urge and are not very aware of what they're doing and, and anything in between.
Bre Wolta: I think like a lot of, um, mental health right? They're on a continuum. And so we have the person who is full blown, um, Narcissistic Personality [00:03:00] Disorder, or NPD, and then people who have narcissistic traits. And I also know a little bit about like the different types of narcissists and a malignant narcissist, for instance, is going to be much more aware and calculated of the pain that they're inflicting because that is part of their dynamic as a malignant narcissist.
Phoenix Gould: Yes, yes, exactly.
Bre Wolta: . It's so hard, I think, for, for women to experience behavior from somebody that they would never intentionally do to someone else, right? As the person receiving it, you're like, I would never lie and cheat on, on my partner and then make them believe it was their fault, that they were asking me about the lying and the cheating.
so for us, as that, that receiving person to receive this behavior, it's very confusing, it's very confusing on. Why? Why are they, why are they doing these things? [00:04:00] Why are they spinning us in circles? Why are they gaslighting? Why can't they beat us in the same way that we
Phoenix Gould: Yeah. You know, this is truly one of the hardest things to understand because We see other people. As if they are the same as us, as if their brain is the same as our brain, but really that's not the case, right? So we can't understand the narcissist if we think of them as, you know, regular human beings.
We can understand them more if we become aware that really their brain is very structured in a very different way. And so the question of how, how could they do this to someone, you know, even their child, because our children are our greatest love. How could they do this to a child? And, and how could they do that to us?
Is it, um, to understand that we need to know that The narcissist really isn't capable of the same amount or the same, [00:05:00] uh, way of loving us than, than we are capable of. You know, love isn't really part of what their brain is capable of doing. And empathy is one of those other things, right? They have a very different kind of empathy to where they can, they can understand how another person feels, but it won't affect them and make them feel like, well, then I shouldn't do this.
The other thing is that nothing they do is really personal. And this is something that took me many, many years to understand. And, and to understand that it's, imagine that, you know, you're drowning in an ocean. And there's no land in sight. And all of a sudden there is like a floating piece of wood.
You know, someone that is about to drown will hold on and clamp on to that floating piece of wood. And even if it was a person, that is that instant reaction, it's like a reflex. We would hold on to that so we won't drown. And it doesn't matter if that is a [00:06:00] child or, you know, another human being. They just can't see it as another human being.
They see us. as a floating piece of driftwood in the ocean where they're drowning. And that drowning is that their, their self esteem is so incredibly low and they have such a huge amount of shame that they cannot face. It is too much for them. I think this is really where, um, where, where the, where the strong difference came in.
Like as a child, they went through some kind of trauma. We know that. And where some other people were able to live with, With that trauma and made their home in that darkness of feeling like they don't have enough self esteem, esteem, they're being shamed, they're not worthy anything, they learn to live with those feelings.
The narcissist avoids these feelings of shame. and worthlessness by, [00:07:00] creating a life around themselves where they feel really powerful. Because when we're powerful and strong, then we don't have to feel small and helpless and ashamed. And in order to feel powerful and strong, they provoke emotions in other people.
And so they don't see other people as human beings. They don't have that capacity. They see other people as useful to help them from drowning in that, you know, in that intense shame. And, and this is why they do what they do is all they want to do.
is provoke emotional reactions in other people, whether that is love and admiration or hate, confusion, anger, fear, it doesn't matter. Any kind of emotional reaction that they provoke in another person gives them the feeling of being in control and being strong and keeps them from drowning in that ocean of [00:08:00] helplessness and insufficiency of those feelings of shame.
Bre Wolta: Yes, really constructing their reality, they feel like this, this shameful small person on the inside. So they have to construct this whole external facade of being in control and being in power. And they, they get fed that validation and that power based on who they're manipulating and why.
So, like, to your point, when they get the emotional reaction from us, they get the understanding that, oh, I can still push your buttons, I'm still in control. doesn't matter if they're making you say, I hate you so much, or they're making you say, I miss you, come back. Any type of strings that, it's like the puppet master who's just doing what they need to do. In order to get the reaction that they need in order to feel powerful and themselves in this false sense of identity that they are creating. [00:09:00] Another metaphor that I've heard that I love so much is the chess board.
they are the chess master and they're moving people as pawns to, to place people in specific situations so that they can progress, they can move forward, they can get the validation. And that's, It's so hard as the, as the person who is truly empathetic in these relationships to understand that you're, you're in a relationship or have been in a relationship.
With somebody who's not viewing you as a person, who's not looking at you like, I want to connect authentically and love you deeply, it's just, what can I get from you
Phoenix Gould: yes. It's very difficult to understand because most of the people we do know have empathy, right? It's unthinkable, before we've met a narcissist in our life, it's unthinkable that that kind of person could possibly exist that doesn't have that capacity for empathy and love. Which I find it's so [00:10:00] helpful to think of narcissists more like beings from another planet, like an alien has a complete different set of values and what's important to them.
They're not, not functioning the same way.
Bre Wolta: Yeah, I use that my clients too, where it's like, we're on this planet. They're on a whole nother planet and we are not going to understand their alien nature or their, their reasons for doing things. And I think sometimes that, in the beginning part of our healing, we can get stuck down these rabbit holes of really trying to figure out why and how the person did what they did.
And trying to intake all of this information around narcissists to learn about their psychology, to learn how they could possibly have done this to us. is some advice that you have for listeners if they're in that place of, I really just am trying to understand something that I can't make sense of?
Phoenix Gould: [00:11:00] What's my advice? That's a really good question because it seems like, every one of my clients is in that place at first where it's just like, I need to understand. And you know, actually we do. It's really hard to let go or it's really hard to make sense of anything. And, and until we really understand they cannot see you as a human being. Don't expect to be treated like a human being and what they do and say only makes sense. If you know that anything they have ever done and anything they will ever do is only to get fuel from you and that fuel is an emotional reaction. So don't try and make sense of any conversations you're having because they're not having a conversation to resolve a conflict.
They're not having a conversation to get closer with you, to connect with you. Any kind of conversation, any kind of action is only designed to provoke you. into giving [00:12:00] them an emotional reaction. Once that really sinks in, we know that talking to them about anything really isn't possible.
Bre Wolta: Which is, it gives you such freedom because I remember when I was in my toxic relationship, you know, I was, I was behind the scenes trying to read the self help books and go to therapy and learn all the ways to communicate. And then I would try to bring. Those new tools into our communication. And I would still leave most conversations feeling like it was my fault or that I was, that I was therapizing him, quote unquote, it would get spun up into some other amplified emotion.
at the basis of all of those, those three outcomes is an emotional charge. either I felt not good enough and like everything was my fault or I felt really angry and confused because he was word salading me with the gaslighting [00:13:00] or I felt like it was all my fault. so to your point of, you could have.
You could have the most perfect way to set a boundary, like the, the verbiage to come in and set a boundary or to speak your feelings with somebody who's narcissistic, and you will never be heard. You will never be, it will never be a conversation where you find resolve, because to your point, they're not looking for resolve.
They're looking for the reaction. That is so important. I want listeners to like pause for a second and, and let that sink in. they're not, they're not coming to conversations looking for a solution or looking to actually hear you or care about what you're saying. They're listening to the point where they can take whatever you're saying and throw it
Phoenix Gould: Yes,
Bre Wolta: your face.
Yeah.
Phoenix Gould: is impossible. [00:14:00] What I, what I help my clients with in that moment when they're trying to figure things out, is also when you learn how to save people in water, when someone is drowning, you cannot swim in and help them because they will clamp onto you.
And you will both sink like a rock. It's like that with a narcissist. You cannot have, you cannot save them in that way. You cannot be with them. You cannot be too close because they will clamp onto you and you will sink like a stone or they're like a wounded animal. Right, that will lash out, that has teeth and you want to help it no matter how gently you approach that wounded animal and no matter what kind of techniques, you know, talking you have been studying, they are a wounded animal that will hurt you.
And so, yeah, think it's so important to understand that the narcissist is just a different, has a different [00:15:00] nature, has a is a different kind of human being that does not function the same way. Yes, they will not hear you. There will be no solution because all they listen for when you're speaking is how they can trigger you.
All they do when you're speaking is look for a button they can push. They don't see anything else. They're incapable of seeing anything else. You know, if they wanted, if they could, they would, I'm sure, because that life is horrible, right? The life of a narcissist is a terrible one, but They're not able to, all they see is buttons to push.
And when we say a certain thing, we light up, you know, like a little neon sign. I was like, oops, there's the button. I'll push it because that'll save me from drowning, in the next five minutes. That's the only thing they see. They're really struggling to survive.
Bre Wolta: And it's important to recognize that those buttons can can look like Um, agitation or it can look like, I love you so much and I miss you. And so another [00:16:00] place where clients of mine get confused is they're like, well, he just apologized for everything and he seems like he's really aware of what he did and he wants to try again and he's promising not to do X, Y, or Z.
And then they believe that because they, of course we want to believe that. And we go back several times, probably, are shown repeatedly that they, were sort of full of smoke, right? The thing never actually came to be. And so it's important for the woman listening to know that sometimes they will pull, they will push your button by telling you how much they miss you, how wonderful you are, how sorry they are, to elicit the emotion of love, of longing, of Okay. they will push the button of you're horrendous. Everything is your fault. I hate you. How could you ruin my life? Right, to agitate and to elicit anger from you, just because they're saying [00:17:00] one thing or the other doesn't really mean those things, it just, it just is intended to elicit the emotion, but that can be a trap.
It's, it's so hard to receive the I'm sorry, I love you, and not believe that they're saying I'm sorry, I love you.
Phoenix Gould: Yes. Because we are wired for connection, normal, regular human beings, we're wired for connection. And if we see a chance for connection, we want to go for that, especially if it's someone who we are attached to, someone who we have feelings for. I tell my clients to imagine the narcissist sitting there with like a fishing line and hook at the end and they're just throwing in different kinds of baits waiting for me to bite and that really helped me when when I was going through this is to visualize that and look for okay where's the bait here because you know every sentence has a bait in it really I mean there is nothing that narcissist will say or do [00:18:00] that is not a bait
Bre Wolta: we really have to come to the to see that because we fight it for a really long time. I think we, we continue to make justifications or excuses or talk ourself out of that, the intuitive knowing, or talk ourselves out of the things we're learning about narcissists. And I remember for me, moment when I finally couldn't unsee it anymore.
Like I allowed myself, I took the, the veil off and I could see how he was placing me in these different manipulations I couldn't unsee it anymore. And so you, for the woman listening, who's like, maybe some part of her body is. not feeling comfortable hearing this information because she knows it's true level.
Know that you will get there in time to the place where you're willing to see it then to the place where you're willing to do something with that
Phoenix Gould: yes
Bre Wolta: But [00:19:00] sometimes we're not ready to see it. Sometimes we're just in taking information and taking it in and learning it and and trying to make sense of it, but it's not really resonating on how it's applicable exactly to us.
Phoenix Gould: And that's okay, right? Because I think it's part of the process is that, you know, starting to see it, questioning, imagining that this person might be a narcissist, but there's always a little bit of hope. There's always a little bit of hope of maybe, maybe, maybe they're not. Maybe that is really sincere.
Maybe they did really see this. And so sometimes. We have to go through one or two or several cycles of the same thing again and again until we reach our personal limit of that patience, of that willingness to try again, I have some,, some patients who say, you know, I know he's a narcissist.
I know I shouldn't go back, but there's still the hope. I think I might have to go for [00:20:00] another round. But they're aware, at least, of the fact of, okay, I'm going for another round. Let's see, you know, how I feel after this one.
Bre Wolta: Yeah, we sometimes have to get enough data in order for it to be, overwhelmingly true, right? We think that if, if we just give them the benefit of the doubt, or if we just try one time, that they'll finally mean it. And we want that to be true. We're holding on to the hope, because letting go of that hope is like a whole level of grief that is really challenging to go through.
And so, that's also normal. If you're still in that place of, well, the last three times didn't work, but now he's saying something different. And I know I need to try again, because if I don't, I'm always going to wonder if. And we just have to naturally come to that place we know it's never going to change.
That we feel confident that [00:21:00] leaving is the right choice, even if it's the harder choice.
Phoenix Gould: And I find, you know, when, when, when we go back for another cycle, there are some opportunities there for really, really becoming aware, observing ourselves. You know, what gives us hope in this moment when we're with that person? Where is there a little red flag, you know, that, that our brain, our body shows us like, Ooh, this felt wrong.
And Ooh, now I'm trying to explain it away. Like there's a lot of opportunity. to learn about ourselves in that moment. We can use that really well. I feel when, when we feel like we have to go back and give it another chance, at least let's go into that phase with a lot more awareness, with a lot more love for ourselves, and with a lot more, tuning into our body.
What's my body telling us? Because our bodies are really smart and oftentimes they give us a sign and then our brain explains it away.
Bre Wolta: Yes.
So, for that, the [00:22:00] person who's in that position, they're listening to this and they're like, okay, he's on a different planet. He's not seeing me as a person, but I just, I can't. Accept that. I don't want to accept that yet in, in my situation specifically. I'm not even sure if he's a narcissist, right?
These are some of the, thoughts that I know went through my head when I was in this, this, um, debating phase with myself. So you have some recognition, but you know, you're not ready to leave. What tip would you give that listener to help her go into the, the next chapter with her eyes open
Phoenix Gould: I would suggest to do journaling. If that person is into journaling, journaling will really help, like at the end of the day, kind of go through the situations again and, and, and, and record, okay, at this point, you know, that person said this thing and it made me feel really strange. Like I did, that didn't make me feel good.
When, when we write things down, [00:23:00] we can look at it again and, and really look for, is that person trying to get reactions from me there might be a test that, that you could do, for example, where, you know, the narcissist is asking for some, for something, and we say no. The narcissist usually cycles through three or four manipulation techniques to get what they want.
A normal person would just, would just respect a no. It's like, okay. That's fine with me, you know, let's not do that. But a narcissist, putting up a boundary for a narcissist is the thing that they will fight, usually. And so when they don't get what they want, they will either be extremely nice to try and make you feel like, oh, but they're giving me so much.
Well, maybe I can give them this. If that doesn't work, usually they become [00:24:00] angry. You know, there might be some anger of like, Why do you, do you never do that for me? And why don't you? There will be that, that anger to provoke us into feeling angry. Fear or uncomfortableness. So we will just say yes. And if that doesn't work, then usually they will move on to being the victim.
Ha, poor me. No one cares about me. And if that doesn't work, then there might be the silent treatment, right? They just don't talk to you at all. And if the silent treatment doesn't get you to do what they want, then they will cycle back into be really, really, really nice. So there's like that, that loop that they will go through again and again and again until they get what they want.
And so that is either by. by provoking us into feeling obliged because they're being so nice or because we love them so much or feeling a fear because they're being angry or they provoke us into feeling guilt by playing the victim or they will provoke us into feeling unloved [00:25:00] and being abandoned through the silent treatment.
So it might be really nice to see how do they react when I say no. That of course doesn't mean apply to the beginning phase of the love bombing or when there's a love bombing phase because when the narcissist feels that we might be leaving them that we're thinking about it or that we have left and we just come back there will be a new love bombing phase where we get everything we want and even if we say no it's no problem at all right be aware look for those little look for the hooks you know are they trying to to Provoke an emotional reaction in you and what happens if you're just really blind if you don't give them any emotional reaction How do they react?
Bre Wolta: Yeah. Yeah. It's, it's interesting when you can look at your experiences with that, like sort of the scientific You're just going, you're doing an experiment and you're looking for data. And [00:26:00] for me, when I was in that situation, it was, it was easier to think of it that way than to think of it. Like I was trying to do something manipulative to see how he was going to react.
So for, if that's coming up for you, for the woman who's listening, know that this is not a manipulation. This is you something that will allow you to gather data around it. And the more data we have, the more that we can, we can. Put that up against the emotions that we're feeling and be able to sift through this mindfuck that happens from these experiences because are experts at spinning us around and making us believe certain things or feel certain things.
They are, they are that chess master, they've been practicing their whole life on people in this way, reading people to use that information against them later. And we are not skilled in those things. And so meeting yourself with some compassion that [00:27:00] you're going up against somebody who really knows what doing, and that's why it feels so confusing, there are things that you can start to do point, Phoenix, about journaling, keeping a diary of, of what is happening, especially when you try to say no to something or set a boundary around something, type of data that you can gather, I think is
Phoenix Gould: Yes, and really tune in with your own feelings, right? Because a good partner will make us feel respected, loved, supported and And the narcissist will make us feel like we're doubting ourselves. We don't know anymore whether we're thinking right or wrong You We feel guilty, we just feel bad, you know, all those negative emotions in a relationship, whether actually it is narcissistic or not, it should make you feel good.
So observe your own emotions. If you're not feeling good, what's the point of being in this relationship? No matter whether they're a narcissist or [00:28:00] not.
Bre Wolta: At the end of the day, the title of narcissist, or the classification, the label, doesn't really matter. Because they could be narcissistic or not. They can have NPD or not. And what matters at the end of the day is how we feel about how they're treating us, to your point. Is the relationship baseline in anxiety and tension and hopelessness, or is the baseline in safety and love?
We want the baseline to be in the ladder there because that's the person that we're spending the most of our time with. Your partner is. percent of your, your day, you know? So I think also, um, comparing your relationship to how you are with other people is really helpful. if you feel really anxious and hopeless and like everything is your fault with just your partner, also shines some light on something that might be happening in that dynamic versus you feeling really seen and held by your friends.[00:29:00]
your family and being able to set a boundary with them and then be like, yeah, I love you. That's fine. Versus you setting a boundary with that, the narcissistic person potentially and them spinning you around and all of these different manipulation tactics. So good. Any last or words of wisdom that you want to leave, leave the listener with
Phoenix Gould: Sure. I think that, , when we, when we go through that process of maybe separating from a narcissist or healing from narcissistic trauma, the most important thing we can do is to learn how to love ourselves, to be really kind and gentle with ourselves, with everything we feel, with everything.
We think, you know, validating our own feelings and emotions because that is one of the things that the narcissist will do is make us feel bad for feeling certain things. And we need to understand, and maybe hear this a million times, that there's nothing wrong with feeling anything. [00:30:00] Feelings are just feelings.
And we need to learn to first accept them, and then hopefully love them. And um, this is something that we can really practice. Whether we're with a narcissist or not, or whether we're thinking about it or not, like self love is the most important thing you can do for yourself.
Bre Wolta: Yes. Yes. that.
Phoenix Gould: If this would help your listeners, I have created an audio meditation that is based on the concept of radical self love, which makes such a huge difference when we can get to a place of radical self love. And so, uh, if you would like, we could attach that to the show notes with a link, so that, um, Your listeners can get an experience of what radical self love feels like, and then they can use this audio to practice if they wish.
Bre Wolta: I would love that. Yeah, we'll be sure to link that to finish these episodes, I always [00:31:00] pull an oracle card.
Phoenix Gould: Yes. there's some cards, maybe not the Oracle ones, but some of these cards. Yes.
Bre Wolta: I'd love your participation. So I have the guests just close their eyes. And you and I together, Phoenix, are going to tune into the audience, to the women listening. And we're just going to ask the deck, the universe, spirit, whatever the higher power is that resonates for you. What is the message that they need to hear today? Whenever you feel like the shuffle's complete, I'm starting to shuffle the cards here.
You just let me know when to stop. Okay,
Phoenix Gould: Stop.
Bre Wolta: so we got see through. Which is a picture of ribs, and you can see, see the heart through the ribs. I'm going to find the message in the book here, and I will read it aloud. See through brings a message of transparency and clarity. [00:32:00] It reminds you not to get lost in the content. Others may want to spin you a tale, but don't be fooled.
through the drama and the noise to see or hear what is really going on. What is beneath the surface of the skin? to understand what is behind the words or actions of another, the underlying need. Don't trust the words alone. See through also reminds you that transparency is a brilliant tool for living and relating authentically.
How are you showing yourself to others? clouding their ability to see you with too many words? Are your words not aligned with your actions? Where might you unveil the parts of yourself that will, that would be helpful for others to see you more clearly?
That
Phoenix Gould: Yes, I would say so. That made me think of, um, because there's so much conflict, of course, with a narcissist, but some people might think, well, in a regular relationship, there's also conflict. We will not always get along. But something that the card said was making [00:33:00] me think of the seeing through.
Even when you're in conflict with someone who you love, you will want them to feel good. In the conflict, you will ask them a question so that you can understand why they chose to behave in a certain way. There will be a lot of love and understanding and space, right? And so in the conflict with the narcissist, we can see through that, like, are you feeling good?
Are you feeling that they want you to feel good? Are you feeling they want you to feel shitty? That would be a really major indication of the quality of that relationship.
Bre Wolta: Absolutely. I love that, that, that little point that came through from the card. That's so important to remember. Yeah. Thank you, Phoenix, so much for your wisdom, your tips, your expertise, all of the things.
Phoenix Gould: It's been a real pleasure.
Speaker 10: I hope you enjoyed this episode as much as I enjoyed talking to Phoenix. I am such a psychology nerd. I [00:34:00] love trying to understand people's motivations and behavior, especially the narcissist. Because like we said in the episode, they live on a different planet. And so it's like observing this alien creature, and And when we can look at it with that distance, it really helps us to find perspective.
And I so, so hope that this episode gives you a different way of thinking about a narcissist that helps you detach from that personalization that can happen. I know you've likely been going down rabbit holes listening to a lot of podcasts or books or otherwise about narcissists and why they do what they do.
And this one, when I was having the conversation with Phoenix, I'm just like, yeah, yes, that makes sense. So I hope there's something from this that you hold onto that little golden nugget that you keep coming back to, keep reminding yourself of \ because we covered so much about narcissists in this, and I always say that in this relationship, [00:35:00] it's not, it's a podcast. It is a relationship. We're having a relationship. It's just a long distance relationship. Okay. Anyway, I digress. Um, we're recapping the episode so that, you know, you remember what you learned today and you can come back and revisit this episode over and over.
So now you know whether narcissists really hurt you on purpose. Now you know why it's impossible to find resolution with a narcissist, despite your best efforts, so you can stop banging your head against the brick wall of why isn't this working and what's wrong with me. And you know now how to easily detect those manipulation tactics.
Words today are hard, you stop second guessing your reality. If you enjoyed this episode, you are going to love episode 47. It's called, Was Any of It Real? Signs You've Been Deceived in a Narcissistic Relationship and How to Finally Understand the Heartbreak with Hilary Buckwalter Wilde. [00:36:00] That is an interview with a woman named, that's an interview episode where Hilary shares her story of what it felt like first hand to.
Understand that she was in deception and understand that she was living in this false reality for many years with her partner. Fascinating, beautiful, you're gonna love Hillary. It's a part one of two, so you can hit both of those.
And one thing I want to leave you with here at the very end is gathering information is important. Learning about narcissism and narcissists and their behavior and their motivation and their psychology is important.
And once you have the information, then it's time to move into the feeling. the feeling part of your healing. So having good support while you're, while you are actually processing and integrating what the experience was for you, what the trauma was for you, what your feelings are around how could I have been with this person and not know, not have seen it, [00:37:00] The healing doesn't stop with just understanding narcissism.
So please reach out to me. There's an interest form in the show notes that you can fill out. I would love to process through this with you. This is, this is what I do. This is my passion in the world is to help women heal and understand the mindfuck. Untangling it all so that you can be free, so that this person no longer has control over your mind, your life, your emotions, even from afar.
So I'm here for you. Always here for you. And this podcast is here for you. This podcast is for you. You are not alone. I will see you in the next episode.