Emily (00:00.664)
Blast off!
Heather Shannon (00:03.902)
That was our guest blasting us off. We are here today with Emily Nagoski. Many of you have probably heard of her. We're going to be talking to you guys about keeping the spark alive in a long-term relationship or maybe reigniting it if it kind of went dormant for a while.
For those of you have not heard of Emily, she's the award-winning author of the New York Times bestselling Come As You Are and Come Together, as well as the Come As You Are workbook and co-author with her sister Amelia of New York Times bestseller Burnout, The Secret to Unlocking the Stress Cycle. She earned an MS in counseling and a PhD in health behavior, both from Indiana University with clinical and research training at the Kinsey Institute. Now she combines sex education and stress education
to teach women to live with confidence and joy inside their bodies. She lives in Massachusetts with two dogs, a cat, and a cartoonist. I was wondering if that was maybe not true anymore. OK. my god, it was after he sent it. That's so crazy. OK.
Emily (00:56.522)
Except that the cat, we lost the cat before Rich. Right after Rich sent you that bio, we lost the cat, alas. Yeah. Like it was really, it's really recent. She would let just for everyone who's like, no, she was 21. We knew it was coming. The good thing about it was she communicated really clearly with us when she was still like, no.
Heather Shannon (01:13.828)
Yeah.
Emily (01:25.746)
No, I don't care that I'm shitting all over your house. This is my life and I want it. Until one morning I woke up and she was like, I'm good, girl. Help me out. It was, yeah, it was actually like a really beautiful moment that she was so clear in her communication.
Heather Shannon (01:36.367)
it's time.
Heather Shannon (01:44.998)
That's amazing. I hope that that's the case when my diabetic arthritic 18-year-old cat needs to go. I feel like I'll know. I feel like he'll tell me. for, yeah, our listeners are used to my cats running around in the background. So hopefully we have a lot of cat-friendly people. All right, well, I have been listening to the audiobook version.
Emily (01:54.626)
Yeah.
Emily (02:10.786)
All right.
Heather Shannon (02:11.448)
come together. By the way, I'm like, does she have a theater background? I just feel like I'm feeling a little thespian vibes.
Emily (02:25.196)
don't want to say yes, but the reality is like, you know, I was in high school, drum club, and I participated in community theater, and I like all that stuff. I have no professional training, except that my twin, Amelia, has multiple performance degrees. She's a choral conductor. And when I was preparing for my TED Talk, for example, the big old TED Talk about arousal non-concordance, Amelia is the one who
Heather Shannon (02:30.394)
Yeah!
Heather Shannon (02:38.79)
Hmm.
Heather Shannon (02:42.758)
That's right, music professionally, yeah.
Emily (02:54.018)
trained me who was my coach while I was preparing. Yeah. And I, like, I, because the books are written in my voice, the only thing I ask for in my book contracts is that I narrate my audio books.
Heather Shannon (02:56.358)
is so cool!
Heather Shannon (03:06.916)
Yes. I was, I know, I I realize you have a very successful career in this, but I was like, if she ever wanted to be a voice actor, she could totally do it.
Emily (03:13.198)
No, because it's just the one voice. I have this voice and that's it.
Heather Shannon (03:17.734)
But anyway, so I'm enjoying that. yeah, you know, a lot of people that I work with as clients and that listen to the show are, you in committed relationships, long term marriages sometimes. And I kind of feel like it's inevitable and you mentioned this in income together that, you know, relationships go through seasons, you know, so I actually would love to start with that. Like, what are reasonable expectations of your long term sex life?
Emily (03:47.119)
Yeah, so I use this metaphor of the garden. I began using the metaphor of the garden with come as you are, like your sexuality is this garden. When you're born with this plot of rich and fertile soil, you're a family of origin and your culture start to plant things. And depending on like the nature of your soil, different things are gonna thrive, but you don't really get to choose any of the plants that got put in your garden early on.
Heather Shannon (03:47.461)
Yeah.
Heather Shannon (03:58.502)
Mm-hmm.
Heather Shannon (04:02.054)
Hmm.
Emily (04:14.508)
and they teach you how to tend the garden and you don't get to choose that either. But when you get to adulthood, you've got this garden of ideas about sex and safety and bodies and eroticism and joy and pleasure and gender. And as an adult, it's not fair that you didn't get to choose all that stuff, but you do have the opportunity to go row by row and make choices about what you want to keep and what you want to discard.
Heather Shannon (04:31.718)
Mm-hmm.
Emily (04:43.98)
And then when you get into a long-term relationship, and this is where we transitioned to come together, it's really about, well, at first, like early in a relationship, you're just like going to visit each other's gardens and finding out whether or not you enjoy spending time in each other's gardens. And eventually you start to create a shared garden where you bring your favorite stuff from your garden and they bring their favorite stuff from their garden. And you really hope that they are compatible. And...
Heather Shannon (04:54.234)
Yeah
Heather Shannon (05:12.825)
Mm-hmm.
Emily (05:13.998)
I talked to a couple while I was doing the Come Together tour and they were like, we thank you for Come As You Are, completely transformed our sex life. And I was like, so what exactly helped? Like what was going on? And they were like, we decided we were tired of it being bad. And we just weren't gonna have bad sex anymore.
And we needed information about like how to make it good. Cause we'd been following somebody else's rules. They were using the stuff other people planted in their garden. They're like, no, we're gonna, just like till everything under the soil and start from scratch and choose what works for us. And not every relationship has a moment like that where you are willing to speak frankly to each other. It has been true for the entire duration of my 30 year career.
Heather Shannon (05:45.52)
Hmm?
Emily (06:06.306)
that people very often feel more comfortable having sex with someone than talking to that same person about the sex they're having.
Heather Shannon (06:15.472)
That has always been so baffling to me. And I have found this especially with older generations where like they're totally fine, like getting naked, putting their genitals in and around each other. And that's fine, but they can't talk about it. I'm like, what? What?
Emily (06:29.698)
They cannot bring themselves to say the words. Yeah, and that just speaks to how much shame we are raised with, that we find a person who we're willing to do the sex things with, but we still have this part of our brain that's like, you can't talk about it, you can't say those words out loud.
Heather Shannon (06:49.542)
I feel like this is sort of just a recent theory I've been working on here, that we just have this weird obsession with being civilized. And maybe that's what part of it is about. however we've defined being civilized and sex can be sort of uncivilized, maybe.
Emily (07:05.792)
Yeah, so I think about it, it's undignified, maybe? And let's face it, sex is pretty silly. It's a very wacky, funny thing we do of taking off our clothes and rolling around like puppies and licking somebody else's body parts and letting them lick parts of our bodies and sometimes putting a part of one person's body inside part of somebody else's body. It's wacky. It's wacky. It is silly.
Heather Shannon (07:29.51)
Mm-hmm.
You
Emily (07:35.169)
It can be undignified if we're using a standard definition of dignity, but it is also an inherent part of living in a human body, indeed in a mammalian body. And it isn't for everyone, but if sex is a thing that you want to have be part of your life, you're totally allowed. And just as if you're in a long-term relationship, right, you have difficult conversations about all kinds of stuff.
Heather Shannon (07:40.358)
Mm-hmm.
Heather Shannon (07:47.526)
Yeah.
Emily (08:04.654)
If you've got kids, you have difficult conversations about the kids. If there's a money situation, you have difficult conversations about money. Buying like cooking and groceries and just things that have to happen, we know how to have hard conversations. Sex conversations have just that little bit of extra difficulty because, I mean, a lot of us were raised with shame around money.
Heather Shannon (08:29.38)
Yeah.
Emily (08:29.866)
And so we have to overcome that. In the same way, you have to overcome the shame about talking about sex so that you can have the sexual connection you want to. In order to have the money conversation, you have to believe that it is worthwhile, worth putting in the effort. And same thing with sex. You have to feel that it is worthwhile, it is worth the effort to overcome that shame and co-create the sexual connection that you want to have together.
Heather Shannon (08:59.238)
Yeah. Totally. I think the piece you're saying about believing it's worthwhile is actually really important. I surveyed my email list recently and was like, what's the main thing stopping you from getting help with your sex life? And I think one of the big ones is hope. There's a lot of like, I don't know if it's going to change. Yeah. Well, what do you say to that for the people who are kind of hanging out in that camp?
Emily (08:59.246)
Does that make sense?
Emily (09:19.126)
Yeah. Yeah, there's nothing I can do. People think.
Emily (09:28.14)
Yeah, what have you tried is my first question. Like what have you done so far? Because so often the answer is literally nothing. Literally not one conversation have they had. And no wonder they don't have hope if they feel like there's no way even to introduce the topic, to have the conversation. Of course it feels like an intractable problem because the wall, the barrier lives inside them, their bodies.
Heather Shannon (09:42.086)
Mm-hmm.
Emily (09:57.785)
They didn't put it there. They're not the ones who decided. I know what I'll do. I'll introduce this enormous wall of shame inside this person's body so that when they are dissatisfied with their sex life, they have no access to connecting with their partner and making it better. Somebody did that to you if you have that wall of shame. And you get to recognize,
Heather Shannon (10:06.692)
Hahaha!
Emily (10:26.412)
shit. When people start talking about sex, something happens inside my body. get a flush of like either shut down or activate fight or flight. And like no wonder I don't want to talk about it because somewhere along the lines, somebody taught me that sex is something scary that I need to be protected from. As opposed to learning that it is a potential source of joy and pleasure and connection and intimacy with a person.
that you get to choose.
Heather Shannon (10:57.134)
Yeah, there's like a lot that goes into it as much as it's like just have a conversation. It's like well yeah, there's the wall of shame about sex and there could be like attachment, you know issue walls up and
Emily (11:08.002)
Yeah, fear that if I bring it up, either my partner's going to take something personally and I'm gonna offend them. They're gonna hear the conversation as criticism and they're just gonna shut down. Or I'm gonna say something about what I want or like and my partner is going to like never be able to look at me again because the thing I say I want and like is so shameful.
Heather Shannon (11:34.992)
Yeah, rich.
Emily (11:35.129)
So I really recommend, if you are in a like, there's no hope situation or like, I don't even know where to start situation, start with a conversation about the conversation, the meta conversation. Like, can we agree that our sex life is not everything either of us would choose for ourselves? And if that's the case, let's talk about why we're not talking about it the way we talk about other stuff. Like, what are the things where you're successful?
Heather Shannon (11:39.267)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Heather Shannon (11:55.994)
Yes.
Heather Shannon (12:02.064)
Mm-hmm.
Emily (12:04.47)
at having the conversation. Money, kids, politics, there's all like mowing the yard, dividing up all of the chores that a shared household needs to have if you're a householding relationship. Like you have got hard conversations about lots of things. So what are your strengths as communicators? And if you want to, you can start with like, let me tell you about the time.
Heather Shannon (12:05.573)
Mm-hmm.
Heather Shannon (12:13.178)
That's it.
Heather Shannon (12:21.445)
Mm-hmm.
Emily (12:32.578)
I mean, this is a real life example from someone that I met at a conference. She's a boomer and in the late 50s, early 60s, she was like making out with a high school boyfriend and her mother comes bursting onto the porch and like shames that guy away, you need to leave and brings her into the house and says, what you were doing, that's sex. And it was very like just so shaming.
Heather Shannon (12:45.37)
Mm-hmm.
Emily (12:59.934)
so shut down and it comes from this place of fundamentalist evangelical Christian southern being a lady point of view. And the reason I met her at the conference is she had totally recognized what had been done to her and why in her marriage that failed she felt so shut down around sex and she decided she was just not going to do that anymore. She was going to figure out what it took. She was going to recognize that
Her eroticism, her pleasure in that kiss, her joy in sexual connection was as much a gift from God as any of the other aspects of her personhood. And she like taught sex education through her church now.
Heather Shannon (13:42.309)
Yeah.
Heather Shannon (13:46.966)
my God, that's so cool. I love that.
Emily (13:48.355)
Yeah. But like that early shaming, like you're not choosing it. So I was raised in quite a comparatively positive sexual education family. But even I, so I was about 11 years old. I must have seen the word vagina in a book at the library, because my mom was driving me home from the library. And I asked, hey mom, what's a vagina?
Heather Shannon (14:14.564)
Mm-hmm.
Emily (14:15.34)
I do not remember any of the words she said, but I do remember this like flash of emotion that happened in her body, this like confusion and embarrassment and like, I don't know what to say. So when I got home, I looked it up in a medical encyclopedia and that taught me what a vagina is, but her reaction taught me how to feel about it.
Heather Shannon (14:33.635)
Okay.
Heather Shannon (14:38.158)
Yes. Yeah.
Emily (14:41.048)
And there's a wonderful sex therapist, a personal hero of mine, Lex Brown James, who says that, yes, the president of ASAC, she's a miracle of a human being. And she says that truth is what happened, honesty is how you felt about
Heather Shannon (14:47.46)
I'll see you in a bit, bye!
Emily (15:01.602)
And those are both things that need to be acknowledged in a conversation about like when stuff hasn't gone ideally. So Eve and I raised in a comparatively sex positive situation, my mom just had this residual stuff from when she was raised. She didn't like choose to have that emotional reaction. I'm sure that if she had had like advanced warning that this, was gonna bring up the subject of genitals, she would have like worked through her stuff and not.
had that reaction, but because it came just like out of the blue, she wasn't ready. And a lot of us have similar kinds of stories.
Heather Shannon (15:39.622)
Totally. I'm thinking the first time I heard the word vagina and I remember thinking it was a made up word.
Emily (15:45.696)
It doesn't sound like a real word, right?
Heather Shannon (15:48.422)
Like and this kid was like that's what your genitals are called. I was like no I Don't think so
Emily (15:53.079)
Yeah. I'm trying, like, so vagina when I was 11, vulva when I got to college. Like that is the gap between fourth grade and first year of college is how long it took before I went from this is my vagina to, this is my vulva and my vagina is the part of it.
Heather Shannon (15:58.652)
Yeah.
Okay.
Heather Shannon (16:05.446)
Mm-hmm.
Heather Shannon (16:15.322)
Yeah, like, what about clitoris? I'm like, I don't even know what I learned about this stuff.
Emily (16:19.98)
Yeah, clitoris again. I remember getting diagrams of external genitalia in high school, because again, I had some sex education. But one, the illustration of the vulva did not include the clitoris at all. was just leaving it out. And the only question I specifically remember from the multiple choice
Heather Shannon (16:21.893)
Right.
Heather Shannon (16:29.638)
Mm-hmm.
Emily (16:46.702)
test on the sex education segment. So the prompt was, he's lying. And the correct answer was the withdrawal method.
Heather Shannon (16:56.08)
gosh.
Emily (16:57.024)
Yeah. And that's relatively good sex education in America.
Heather Shannon (17:02.682)
Well, I know, even the fact that it exists. mean, yeah, I can't even imagine.
Emily (17:05.036)
Right? I got taught about condoms and how to use them, right? I got taught about that birth control is an effective way to prevent pregnancy.
Heather Shannon (17:17.04)
we got taught that. know that in junior high we had like abstinence only. It was kind of like, yeah, you know, and then it.
Emily (17:20.942)
Yep, me too. And I'm old enough that my junior high sex education was mostly HIV.
Heather Shannon (17:28.696)
Yes. Ours was HIV and don't get pregnant ruin your life. There was certainly no mention of pleasure or connection or anything. Yeah. Okay, so back to our committed couple people and relationships who probably have some of the same history.
Emily (17:35.266)
Mm-hmm.
Emily (17:41.388)
Right.
Emily (17:49.507)
Yeah, and acknowledging this history, like maybe it's easier before you start talking about your shared erotic connection that you're trying to repair, like talk about all the ways harm was done to you that like you didn't pick that.
Heather Shannon (17:52.667)
Mm-hmm.
Heather Shannon (18:06.022)
that.
Emily (18:06.936)
You're bringing all this garbage into the relay. And this is the stuff in your garden. These are the weeds and the toxic plants that just take over everywhere. Nobody wants that in there, but we have to recognize that they got put there if we're gonna notice them and pull them out like weeds and throw them on the compost heap to rot.
Heather Shannon (18:08.674)
Yes!
Heather Shannon (18:13.955)
Yeah!
Heather Shannon (18:27.866)
Yeah. And like how helpful to know your partner's weeds and to know that they're aware of them and that they want to remove on. Like that's.
Emily (18:31.918)
Yeah!
Yeah, which is why there's a whole chapter on gender stuff. The binary, this mirage of the gender binary that all of us got trained into very often from before birth, we're being trained that there are rules about how we use our bodies and what we're allowed to experience as erotic people and as loving people, like there are rules we have to follow. And
Heather Shannon (18:38.754)
Yes!
Heather Shannon (18:43.845)
Yeah.
Emily (19:01.058)
by getting explicit about like, here's what I was taught about what it means to be a man. Here's what I was taught about what I'm supposed to be doing as a woman. And here's what my identity is now. And here are the ways that this stuff doesn't feel like a fit. Or here's the ways that this idea seems good on the surface. And I really like the idea of being, I was raised as a girl and I identify as a woman. And I love the idea that like,
Heather Shannon (19:04.038)
Yeah.
Heather Shannon (19:13.166)
Mm-hmm.
Emily (19:30.752)
A core part of me is being nurturing. And also, there's only so much nurturing I can do without receiving nurturing in return.
Heather Shannon (19:40.196)
Yeah. Yeah, that's good. And I'm hearing you say it, also like, I feel like I was like born a feminist in a lot of ways. And yet I'm also sure I still have blind spots is to even like how I've been influenced to like be a woman and what that means.
Emily (19:57.315)
Yeah, when I see all kinds of social media resources about deconstructing the ways white supremacists, et cetera, patriarchal norms have been embedded in us from so early on in our lives, the last thing they ever touch on is our sex lives.
Emily (20:17.889)
Yeah.
Heather Shannon (20:19.238)
Yeah. But I mean, so I guess I want to say to people too, like it's a journey, you know, like maybe there's some things where like, recognize I was taught to like do the dishes as a woman, or I recognize that, you know, I was taught that it doesn't matter as much how much income you earn or whatever, or I was taught to like, yeah, always be nice or supposed to be pretty. And that's my worth in the world. But I do feel like
Because sometimes when I work with clients, there's some perfectionism, I think, that kicks in. like, well, I don't have all the answers. I'm like, just start. And then you'll probably learn more as you go. You can always revisit these conversations.
Emily (20:53.996)
Yeah.
Emily (20:58.424)
Yeah, you don't need answers to have the conversation. The conversation derives from the questions you have.
Heather Shannon (21:01.413)
Yeah.
Heather Shannon (21:05.432)
Yeah. Yeah. So can you say more though about the gender mirage and like kind of like why you even named it a mirage?
Emily (21:12.812)
Yeah. Okay. So if you live in the 21st century, Northern hemisphere, like Western civilization, which I'm saying with really heavy air quotes, you live, you were born into a world that taught you that there were two roles you could be assigned on the day of your birth. That role was assigned based on nothing more than the perceived shape of your genitals. I'm going to pause for a moment and just
Heather Shannon (21:20.742)
Hmm.
Hahahaha
Emily (21:42.979)
consider the gender reveal, because it's not a gender reveal, it is a genital reveal. And it feels creepy to me that we're having parties to talk about and celebrate the shape of our new baby's genitals. Our baby has a penis, everybody. Isn't that thrilling?
Heather Shannon (22:09.894)
I mean, I agree with you. Yeah, it's like, it's one of those things where I'm like, I guess maybe people feel like they know the child a little better because they have like a fact about the child, but I'm like, yeah, it's just the sex. It's not even the gender.
Emily (22:11.448)
Like.
Emily (22:19.47)
But, and this is the point, is we have this mirage that because we know the shape of the baby's genitals, we think we know who this child is gonna grow up to be. We think we know what kinds of toys they're gonna like to play with. We think we know what kind of ways they're going to love. And that's because from the moment we learn, my baby has a penis, we make a lot of choices about what toy options we offer, maybe.
Heather Shannon (22:25.956)
Yeah. Yeah.
Yeah.
Emily (22:47.958)
We have a lot of like innate unexamined subconscious ways that we interact with this baby's body. I met a woman in Italy actually who had red come as you are and was watching her brother, her adult brother change his baby daughter's diaper. he, you know, she was all clean and like how great dad's changing a diaper. We love that.
Heather Shannon (23:06.052)
Mm-hmm.
Emily (23:15.406)
and he turns away for a second to get the new diaper and when he turns back, Baby has her hand on her vulva. And his response is, don't touch that.
Heather Shannon (23:22.374)
Hmm.
Emily (23:27.246)
to which this woman, because she had red cum as you are recently, it was right at the top of mine, she was like, how would he have responded if his baby had a penis? Would it have been as like danger, the genitals are lava, as his response to his baby touching him? And how would he have responded if his baby had touched her feet? Like don't we love it when babies find their feet? Like did you find your feet? Or those your little toesies? Like can't we have?
Heather Shannon (23:35.995)
Mm-hmm.
Heather Shannon (23:53.326)
Yeah. Yeah.
Emily (23:56.846)
Did you find your vulva?
Heather Shannon (23:58.777)
Yeah. That's a great question. mean, she is allowed. And I think that I've had clients in their 50s who are ashamed for being caught masturbating as children, and it's still stuck with them. And they still feel like there's some kind of wrongness or dirtiness about their sexuality because of how their parent reacted.
Emily (24:00.343)
that feel good? Like, she's all loud.
Emily (24:10.392)
Right.
Emily (24:14.829)
Yes.
Emily (24:19.596)
Right. And just to get nerdy about it, what's happening in the brain, there's a mechanism in your brain, it's called the dual control model, where, yeah, there's a sexual accelerator or the excitation system that notices sex-related stimulation. So, you know, if you rub your genitals, your brain's going to be like, that is sex-related stimuli. I'm going to like hit the gas and turn on the ons in the brain and the rest of the nervous system and then out into the body.
Heather Shannon (24:21.659)
Hmm.
Emily (24:48.142)
And at the same time, there's also a sexual inhibition system. And I don't mean is inhibition isn't shy. I mean shut off. And it responds to all the good reasons not to be turned on right now. And it's everything, everything you see, hear, smell, touch or taste, anything you think, believe or imagine, and any sensation in your body. And when you are interrupted,
Heather Shannon (24:55.6)
Mm-hmm.
Heather Shannon (25:04.069)
Right.
Emily (25:17.588)
and shamed for masturbating, what happens is you're aroused already because you're masturbating, somebody walks in and says something judgmental and shaming, and what your brain learns is that that level of arousal is itself a threat and a reason not to be turned on right now. So a lot of people who have those early experiences of being shamed and judged struggle with orgasm.
Heather Shannon (25:20.294)
Mm-hmm.
Emily (25:42.893)
because you get to a certain level of arousal and your brain's like, this is something potentially dangerous and we should not get turned on anymore. And it hits the brakes. And you have to learn how to let your body experience that level of arousal, let your body experience that pleasure. Know that you are safe and you are entitled to that pleasure. That sensation is not dangerous and you can allow that sensation to grow when you choose it.
which is how people who struggle with orgasm eventually gets to orgasm is because they, in a context of safety, they allow their body to experience pleasure without any performance demand. And the expectation, like I'm not allowed to have an orgasm right now. My job is simply to experience arousal and pleasure if arousal and pleasure wanna happen in my body and I can let them be at any scale.
that I choose. And I'm just gonna notice if I feel like a part of me shutting down, if I feel, if I hear a shaming voice, if I feel the shame sensations in my body, I'm just gonna notice that, just kind of set that on the back burner of my mind. And right now I'm just gonna focus my attention on the pleasure that's happening. So neurologically it makes sense that when people have shame in their background, it's going to be a barrier to accessing all the pleasure that's available to them.
Heather Shannon (27:10.104)
Mm-hmm. love that. I do internal family systems. So think that you just use the parts language. I love that
Emily (27:15.424)
love, yeah, super big into IFS.
Heather Shannon (27:18.782)
Yeah, so I think just making making friends with this part of you that you know is kind of like no orgasm scary unsafe You know just be like okay there that buddy
Emily (27:22.307)
Mm-hmm.
Emily (27:28.3)
Yeah. Yeah. Like, thank you so much for keeping me safe because you are repeating exactly what I was told. And the person who told us that is somebody who was responsible for keeping us safe. And now I've got that person for keeping me safe right inside of me. And can I tell you about how old I am now? Can I tell you about my marriage? Can I tell you about the wonderful person with whom I share?
Heather Shannon (27:41.295)
No.
Heather Shannon (27:48.774)
Please. Yes.
Emily (27:54.511)
sexual connection? Can I tell you about all the ways that I have survived in this world and managed to stay connected to my erotic body? Can I tell you the things I've learned about like how much 100 % permission I have to experience sexuality as an adult with full autonomy?
Heather Shannon (27:55.867)
I
Heather Shannon (28:16.454)
I'm so nice. Yeah.
Emily (28:18.028)
Right? And we all know with IFS that that protector is standing in front of an exile. And a lot of people have a sexual exile.
Heather Shannon (28:25.435)
Yes.
Heather Shannon (28:32.312)
yes. That's like part of why I do this work. Cause I just feel like there's so much shadowy stuff in the area of sex with this unconscious. And I was like, let's just shine the light of day on some of this stuff and like make it okay.
Emily (28:39.788)
Yes. Yeah.
Emily (28:45.954)
And the thing, what makes, I literally have a section on this in the second half of the book. What makes shadow work hard is that like it's in a shadow and it is like your body doesn't want to see it. Your brain doesn't want to see it. So unless you're like, I'm going to shine a spotlight there. And it's like, nothing, there's nothing there. No, there's nothing to see here, ma'am. Step aside, move along.
Heather Shannon (28:54.656)
Hahaha!
Heather Shannon (29:03.141)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah. I know. Our systems are so clever, honestly, like hiding things they need to hide. But like, I was actually doing some of this yesterday with a client. And she started out, she's like, it feels like a cluster of parts. And she used the word dark too, you know, and she was like, it's dark. But then as we continue kind of doing the work, we're bringing some self energy in and we're asking any like apprehensive or judgmental parts to kind of give some space and hearing out their concerns.
Emily (29:13.048)
So smart.
Heather Shannon (29:37.414)
then it starts to morph. So then it's like if there's a visual image or if there's a feeling of like, ooh, keep away, it starts to shift and change. And so it gets a little bit less dark and a little bit less dark until it's not dark anymore.
Emily (29:51.106)
Yeah.
Heather Shannon (29:52.73)
I think that's pretty cool.
Emily (29:54.168)
and then you meet somebody who is hiding.
Heather Shannon (29:56.993)
Right. Yes. Yeah, maybe the little exile comes out and was like, it was me. I'm here. Yeah. Please.
Emily (30:02.914)
Yeah, yeah. And you get to be like, hey girl, hey, you were safe the whole time.
Heather Shannon (30:08.176)
Yeah.
That's so cute.
Emily (30:11.814)
or you weren't safe the whole time. And I'm here now and you're safe now. And I will always keep you safe now.
Heather Shannon (30:15.354)
Right. Yes.
Heather Shannon (30:22.182)
It's really nice that we can reprogram ourselves and reparent ourselves from whatever social conditioning. And I think like you mentioned, it's like when our parents have certain reactions, like they're not trying to be jerks. You know what I mean? So I think we can also have some compassion for them. They're like, that's how they were taught. They also didn't think therapy was OK back then. You know what I mean? It's like they were doing the best they could. But it's like we get to take responsibility and make change now, which is
Emily (30:42.146)
Yes. Yeah.
Emily (30:49.344)
Yeah, I think it's reasonable for people to like move through an experience of anger that they did not get more and better education from whatever system, from school, from church, from family of origin, from whatever religious organization they may have been participating in, and from their friends, from the media. You can be angry about how bullshit
Heather Shannon (31:02.843)
Yeah.
Heather Shannon (31:13.477)
Yeah.
Heather Shannon (31:18.67)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Emily (31:18.892)
your education was. And you can forgive the people who were involved because they were recapitulating what was done to them. people are doing their best. Sometimes their best is really not adequate. It was still their best.
Heather Shannon (31:36.442)
Right. think that, yeah, that's very-
Emily (31:37.903)
And we started with a question of like, how do you have the conversation with your partner? Like if you've got all this living in your body and this is your barrier to starting the conversation and the reason you feel like you have no hope is because you are trapped in the darkness that you were taught to believe is inherent in sexuality? Yeah, yeah.
Heather Shannon (31:41.602)
I know! Yes. Yes.
Heather Shannon (32:01.638)
Yeah, there's like a lot to unpack there sometimes. You know, which is why people like us exist to help out with some of that. So let's talk a little bit because you also talked about in the book, like changing bodies and obviously stress. Like those are often things that happen where it's like, oh, someone had a health issue and then this life stressor, this caregiving of the parents. then it's like, now we haven't had sex in a while. I got kind of weird. How do we even deal with that?
Emily (32:04.544)
Yeah.
Emily (32:30.478)
How do we find our way back to each other? Yeah, like so the garden that we like put all this effort into early on in our relationship, like it has just been overtaken by weeds, because it has been neglected because life happened and life does happen. It happens to like the whole origin of come together is how writing come as you are totally destroyed my sexual connection with my newlywed husband, who as we have established is
Heather Shannon (32:31.684)
Yeah!
Heather Shannon (32:38.118)
I'm done.
Heather Shannon (32:45.882)
Yep. Yep.
Heather Shannon (32:57.744)
Mm-hmm.
Emily (32:59.648)
one of the greatest human beings on the face of the earth.
Heather Shannon (33:00.646)
I know before we hit record I was like it's your husband just someone that like everyone likes because I could tell via email and Emily was like yes Yeah, yeah
Emily (33:07.852)
Yeah, everyone likes him. And I'm really lucky. And it doesn't matter how amazing he is. Like my life was so stressful. My brakes were just like jammed on. I would follow my own advice. Okay, so let's talk about solutions. The solution, you talked about keeping the spark alive. I say, fuck spark. Spark is not the thing.
Heather Shannon (33:19.451)
Yeah.
Heather Shannon (33:23.513)
Yeah.
Heather Shannon (33:27.995)
Yeah.
Heather Shannon (33:31.598)
Mm-hmm. Okay. Okay.
Emily (33:36.355)
Let's, if we talk about, Peggy Kleinplatz runs the Optimal Sexual Experiences Lab. And in her wonderful book, Magnificent Sex, so good, right? They've interviewed dozens of people who self-identify as having extraordinary sex lives. And don't you wanna know what that sex is like and how you get to be a person who has it? Desire, spontaneous desire, like spark?
Heather Shannon (33:41.286)
I love her book. Yeah. So good. Please everyone read it.
Heather Shannon (34:04.399)
Yeah.
Emily (34:04.748)
They really scrapes into the top 10 characteristics of great, optimal, extraordinary sex. It is not the thing that people who have awesome sex are looking for. They are looking for, well, the most important, they're looking for pleasure. So instead of waiting until you feel horny or trying to put a lot of effort into like creating a horniness experience for yourself,
Heather Shannon (34:13.04)
Mm-hmm.
Heather Shannon (34:23.302)
Mm-hmm.
Heather Shannon (34:32.698)
Okay.
Emily (34:33.816)
put a lot of effort into creating a pleasure experience for yourself and your partner. And when things are not too bad, you can start off with like, you set a time and I know scheduling is not for everyone. So sometimes it's gonna be spontaneously like, let's try it now. What do you think? But for a lot of people, scheduling is important because like, we're busy. There's nothing that happens in my life that isn't in my calendar. Right? Like.
Heather Shannon (34:54.512)
Yeah.
Heather Shannon (35:00.272)
Yeah.
Emily (35:02.818)
And it takes time and effort. What are you willing to eliminate from your calendar to create the time and protect the energy required to share an erotic pleasurable experience with this person? What are you willing to downgrade and make sex more important? So that's one part. And then the next part is what do do when you get there? And like get...
Heather Shannon (35:20.09)
Mm-hmm.
Heather Shannon (35:25.851)
that's
Emily (35:32.719)
whatever you want, but like a great place to start is to take off your clothes, let your skin touch your partner's skin and see what happens. Cause a lot of the time what happens is your body goes, Oh, Oh, Oh, this is a good idea. Yeah. Yeah. Let's do this. How about this? Yes. That's called responsive desire. And it is the way
Heather Shannon (35:45.958)
Yeah
Heather Shannon (35:50.224)
Yeah.
Emily (35:58.893)
Sexual desire works in most long-term relationships, not all long-term relationships. Some people experience primarily spontaneous out of the blue desire their whole lives. And those people have spontaneous desire privilege because we're taught that that's how it's supposed to work. But how it more often works is this responsive desire where you like throw the last of the kids' toys in the toy box. You put the last of the dishes in the dishwasher.
Heather Shannon (36:14.404)
You can't.
Heather Shannon (36:24.25)
Yeah.
Emily (36:24.296)
and you put your body in the bed and you're like, it's time, can we get this moving? Let's do this thing. And that's normal. That's, you are doing it right. If you are having, so Christine Hyde is a sex therapist in New Jersey who taught me this analogy. If you get invited to a party by your best friend, you say yes, because it is a party and your best friend. But as the date approaches, you start going, I'm gonna have to find childcare.
Heather Shannon (36:29.327)
Yeah.
Heather Shannon (36:33.346)
You me. Yes. Yeah.
Heather Shannon (36:49.274)
Mm-hmm.
Heather Shannon (36:53.924)
Right.
Emily (36:54.52)
gonna be traffic, do I really wanna put on hard pants at the end of a long week to go to this party? But you know what, you said you would. So you spend the time to remove the body hair and put on the body glitter and you trim your ear and nose hair and you put on the party clothes and you show up to the party. And what happens? A lot of the time you have fun at the party. If you are having fun at the party, you're doing it right.
Heather Shannon (37:00.71)
hard.
Heather Shannon (37:10.79)
you
Yeah.
Heather Shannon (37:19.398)
This is true.
Emily (37:23.99)
It doesn't matter how you felt, you put in the time and effort to show up and you enjoyed it. And there is no amount of being like spontaneously horny to go to a party that's gonna make that party worth going to if you are allergic to the food, if you are in the middle of arguments with people who are at the party, if they're not playing a kind of music you enjoy, if you're not having fun.
Heather Shannon (37:24.282)
Mm-hmm.
Heather Shannon (37:29.638)
Yeah
Heather Shannon (37:47.066)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Emily (37:53.474)
Doesn't that matter so much more than the fact that you were like, couldn't wait to get to this party?
Heather Shannon (37:59.857)
Yes.
Emily (38:00.513)
Which is why I say center pleasure. Pleasure is the measure. If you're having fun, you are doing it right. And if you're not having fun, that's a whole separate conversation about like what kind of sex, the way Peggy Klineplatz puts it, is what kind of sex is worth wanting. I like to say, what kind of sex is worth having? What kind of sex is worth protecting the time and energy that it takes to engage erotically?
Heather Shannon (38:19.013)
Yeah.
Heather Shannon (38:27.43)
Yeah, so one of my questions is, because I do feel like there's a category of people where they're kind of like, you know, I'll give them like a hand job or a blow job or like I'll do it because my partner wants to. But like, I'm not like really into it. like, it's almost like they think if we start touching, I'll get into it. And then it's just like, OK, I'm kind of just like laying here. It feels like duty sex or obligation sex. What's the difference between that and kind of just like,
Emily (38:51.085)
Yeah.
Heather Shannon (38:55.578)
Hey, maybe I don't have to get horny, but it still winds up being a great experience.
Emily (39:01.314)
whether or not you're having fun. Yeah, so here's like a super concrete conversation people can have. It's four questions. One, what is it that you want when you want sex?
Heather Shannon (39:03.459)
Okay.
Heather Shannon (39:08.997)
Mm-hmm.
Heather Shannon (39:13.755)
Mm-hmm.
Emily (39:15.348)
What is it that you like when you like sex?
Heather Shannon (39:19.248)
Mm-hmm.
Emily (39:21.164)
What is it that you don't want when you don't want sex? What is it that you don't like when you don't like sex? And let me tell you, sense of obligation is one of the most common things people neither want nor like when it comes to sex, feeling like they're required to, that they have to or else, feeling like there's something at stake.
Heather Shannon (39:26.874)
Mm-hmm.
Heather Shannon (39:43.109)
Yes.
Heather Shannon (39:47.355)
you
Emily (39:47.811)
There should be nothing at stake. Nobody should have anything to lose in a sexual. You shouldn't feel like I have to give my partner a hand job or a blow job or else our relationship could be at risk. If you're not having fun,
Heather Shannon (40:01.561)
Right, right.
Emily (40:06.35)
and you're doing it even if you don't like it and you feel like you have to do it or else you could lose your relationship, no wonder you are not having fun, right?
Heather Shannon (40:18.246)
Right. Yes. Yeah, I agree. I hate that for people. I'm like, let's just eliminate that category of sex, please.
Emily (40:23.394)
Yeah, and the source of the problem in that is their partner's belief that they are entitled to some amount of sexual satisfaction at the hands of their partners or they have permission to break the promises they made to that partner. They feel betrayed because their partner is less interested in sexual connection than they are.
Heather Shannon (40:30.703)
Mm-hmm.
Heather Shannon (40:39.014)
Mm-hmm.
Heather Shannon (40:53.231)
Yeah.
Emily (40:53.878)
And that, so the number one thing people want and like from a sexual experience is connection. For some people, sex is like way at the top of the list of the ways they experience connection. For some people, it's kind of a peripheral way that they experience connection. And it can change over your lifetime how important it is. And...
It is the case that even if you're a person who experiences connection like really intensely through sex and less so through, if you want connection and your partner is not available for sexual connection and you made an agreement that like we're the only people we're gonna have sex with, you can renegotiate that agreement or you can explore all the many other ways to feel connected to your partner that don't involve them doing something they do not enjoy. And maybe,
Heather Shannon (41:32.006)
Thank
Emily (41:48.547)
They just don't enjoy it during this season. Like maybe they're undergoing treatment for a medical situation. Like perimenopause has fucked me. Can I swear? There is no better way to explain what perimenopause has done to me than to say that it has fucked me up. And my, what I want, like, and need from a sexual connection has really changed. And I don't, I have not yet fully embraced.
Heather Shannon (41:50.886)
Right.
Heather Shannon (41:58.851)
of course.
Heather Shannon (42:07.354)
Yeah.
Emily (42:17.452)
some of those changes, right? And it's it's rough. Plus long COVID, like it's not great in my body right now. So we find the ways that are available to my brain and body right now for us to experience connection and pleasure and a sense that both of our bodies, one of the things, so there's four big things people want when they want sex. Connection is number one, far and away.
Heather Shannon (42:20.304)
leave in you.
Heather Shannon (42:25.271)
wow, okay. Okay.
Heather Shannon (42:34.054)
Mm-hmm.
Heather Shannon (42:47.12)
Mm-hmm.
Emily (42:47.168)
Another is that they want the pleasure, of course. And a thing that people don't want or like is for it to be painful or to be not pleasurable or for it to be all about gratifying one person's pleasures at the expense of somebody else's. They also want to feel desired and no wonder we have just spent a big chunk of time talking about all the cultural messages we hear about...
Heather Shannon (42:50.554)
Yeah. Yeah.
Heather Shannon (43:00.719)
Right.
Mm-hmm.
Emily (43:12.062)
the ways that no, you're not allowed to be desired. These parts of you are shameful and disgusting, of course. We want there to be a person in our life who's like, not only is it not shameful and disgusting, I am super attracted to these parts of you. Yeah, of course we want to feel wanted. Plus, almost everybody's gender script involves some aspect of being desirable as a sexual partner on the terms of the gender that we were assigned.
Heather Shannon (43:36.902)
make sense.
Emily (43:41.961)
And I forget what the fourth thing is, but it's in the book. I think it's literally chapter one or two. Like you don't have to get deep into the book to find out what people are saying are like the most important things. But you can find those things. like, yeah, how, if my body doesn't have access to eroticism right now, are there still ways that I can make sure my partner feels like deeply knows that he is wanted by me?
Heather Shannon (43:45.798)
It's in there, read the book people.
Emily (44:11.97)
that my lack of access to that has nothing to do with him not being like my favorite person on earth and super-de-cute and wicked hot. And like I enjoy all the parts of his body and like my body.
Heather Shannon (44:21.156)
Mm-hmm.
Emily (44:28.628)
intellectually and emotionally recognizes it, but sexually my body is like, parking brake's on, dude. Like I can't go anywhere. And I am truly, genuinely entertained. Truly. Like it's our favorite TV show, watching you masturbate. And you can know that I genuinely, like I like that. And I...
Heather Shannon (44:36.09)
Yeah. Right.
Heather Shannon (44:49.605)
huh.
Heather Shannon (44:55.622)
That's so nice.
Emily (44:56.674)
I will participate in some ways that are available to my body that I like. And that's... Does that make sense?
Heather Shannon (45:05.318)
Yeah, I think it's like a great example because it's really showing, and you mentioned this in the book too, like the importance of adaptability. You know, I think sometimes, and I've worked with these clients where they just, even though they hire me, they still are like, I shouldn't have to work on my sex life. And I'm like, no, you do. maybe in your 20s, you know.
Emily (45:10.904)
Yeah.
Emily (45:19.493)
Ha!
Emily (45:23.544)
That idea that it should just come naturally and you shouldn't have to talk about it, people are raised with the idea that if you have to talk about it, that already means that there's something wrong and you're doing it wrong. The people who have extraordinary sex talk about it all the time, just like you talk about your favorite hobbies. You talk about your favorite musicians and you make plans for going to the concert and then you excitedly get ready to go to the concert and then you go to the concert and then after the concert,
Heather Shannon (45:36.229)
Yes.
Heather Shannon (45:42.97)
Mm-hmm.
Emily (45:53.187)
You talk about how great the concert was, right? Like you talk about it because you're excited. There's a poet wrote an essay about his wife, a fellow poet who died. They lived in middle of nowhere, New Hampshire, and their New York literary friends would come visit them in middle of nowhere and be like, this is so beautiful, but what do you do?
Heather Shannon (45:54.924)
my god, it's so good, yeah.
Heather Shannon (46:06.788)
Mm-hmm.
Heather Shannon (46:10.747)
Mm-hmm.
Heather Shannon (46:20.347)
Yeah
Emily (46:21.204)
And the title of the essay, if you want to find it, is Third Things. And it's about the ways relationships over the long term are not about like turning toward each other and gazing into each other's eyes the whole time. It's about having shared things that activate your curiosity and your excitement. For a lot of people, a third thing is your kids. A third thing is your favorite hobbies. A third thing is art. A third thing can be your favorite sports team.
Heather Shannon (46:50.991)
Okay.
Emily (46:51.306)
And your third thing I believe can and maybe should be your sexual connection. If your sexual connection is important, it should be a thing that the two of you recognize you collaborate on and you co-create. And when it's not ideal, you can talk about like, okay, so what's happening now that makes it different from before? And what do we want to co-create together that's different from what it is now?
Heather Shannon (47:04.454)
15.
Heather Shannon (47:20.344)
Love that. I think one of the things you mentioned in the book that's a third thing, and I'm probably going to forget the name of it, is like, but the map of the rooms. Can you talk about that? Because I really like that. Thank you so much. Yes.
Emily (47:27.98)
The emotional floor plan, yeah. So this is another one where it's a pretty straightforward concept. So, Jak Pengsep developed this model of mammalian emotions as seven primary process emotions. And let me say, it's very strange that we made it to the 21st century without one universally agreed upon model of here's how emotion works. So I had to pick one and I picked
Heather Shannon (47:56.174)
Yeah.
Emily (47:57.877)
though one that included sex.
Heather Shannon (48:01.67)
I mean, of course.
Emily (48:02.68)
For mammalian emotions, like can we not all agree that sex is part of it? So I took his science and I made a metaphor out of it. Like let's say there are seven emotional spaces that you can be in in your brain. You can be in, so there are pleasure favorable spaces. When you're in these spaces, it's comparatively easy for your body to experience pleasure. So lust is gonna be one of those. Care.
Heather Shannon (48:07.355)
Why else would I think that I wouldn't? Gosh.
Heather Shannon (48:19.206)
Mm-hmm.
Heather Shannon (48:28.474)
Mm-hmm.
Emily (48:32.472)
can be another one of those, though that's complicated. Seeking, exploring, curiosity, that's another one. That's an innate mammalian emotion. And there's play, which is an innate mammalian emotion. It is the motivational system of friendship. And I would say that the main thing that people learn is that play exists and that it can be a gateway.
Heather Shannon (48:34.65)
No.
Heather Shannon (48:39.684)
Yeah.
Emily (49:02.306)
think that sex is supposed to be like sexy from jump, like it should get started with something sexy as opposed to something silly.
Heather Shannon (49:10.906)
Yes. Yes. And sometimes my clients that are silly or playful feel like that part of them is not welcome in their sex life, but it's like so authentic and key to who they are. And that makes me sad. I'm like, let's just break up. It's allowed.
Emily (49:21.154)
Yeah, it's so beautiful and wonderful when people can get to the play space. And one of the struggles we had early on is that I get to the lust space through the curiosity space. When I was a grad student, I dated other grad students and I got to the lust space by us talking about each other's research.
Heather Shannon (49:36.719)
Okay.
Heather Shannon (49:45.624)
So cute and nerdy.
Emily (49:47.149)
Yeah, in grad school I was like, but those relationships were dissatisfying and ultimately ended for any number of reasons, not least because these are people who are good at sex and good at intellectual stuff and like just missing all of the emotional stuff. And then I married an artist who, when I, like I would start talking about affective neuroscience, not even realizing that I was trying to like,
Heather Shannon (50:06.864)
Hmm?
Emily (50:16.556)
get the horny started, and he would respond with a joke. And I felt like, because he's a cartoonist, he writes jokes for a living. And I would feel like he was dismissing and minimizing the science, and we were just missing each other in that way because he gets to the sexy space through the play space.
Heather Shannon (50:22.214)
Interesting.
Heather Shannon (50:26.308)
Yeah.
Heather Shannon (50:33.234)
interesting.
Emily (50:43.628)
So what happened is I gradually learned and like, I just am not good at getting to the play space. is not, it was not a thing I was granted lots of permission to do as a child. So like that pathway didn't get really strongly reinforced for me early in my life.
Heather Shannon (50:56.197)
Okay.
Heather Shannon (51:01.67)
I feel like you definitely seem playful now. Maybe you've worked on it. I don't know. Well, it's coming through now.
Emily (51:06.644)
I have so worked on it, I've been in therapy since I was 22.
So yeah, and also like when I teach, like it was easy for me to recognize the ways I needed to bring play into a classroom. Cause when people, when you talk about sex in particular, people go to the pleasure adverse spaces. They go to fear, they go to anger, they go to shutdown, panic, grief. And like, if I can like coax them into the play space, we can talk about like you.
Heather Shannon (51:22.046)
that's cool.
Heather Shannon (51:39.781)
Yeah.
Emily (51:41.782)
Like, let's talk about sex and look, doesn't have to be scary. It doesn't have to be a danger. doesn't have to be, you don't have to shut down. You can stay here and play with these ideas. So I learned how to get to the play space because it was my job.
Heather Shannon (51:51.758)
Yeah.
Heather Shannon (51:56.871)
That makes sense, because I saw you in person in Denver like a number of years ago, and you were chugging around the stage and having a great time, and I was like, oh my gosh, she's so playful. Yeah. Yeah.
Emily (52:00.889)
Yeah!
Emily (52:05.346)
Yeah, yeah, I learned how to do it at work first. And then it was like, I need to learn how to do this in real life. So like when I say that the person I married is like the best person, it's not just the best person, he's the best person for me, because a thing I needed was practice accessing the play space. And it didn't just improve our sexual connection, it made me a better human being.
Heather Shannon (52:08.954)
That makes sense, okay.
Heather Shannon (52:20.12)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Emily (52:32.852)
My whole adult life has been a process of learning to take myself less seriously.
Heather Shannon (52:38.096)
I relate.
Emily (52:39.562)
Yeah, yeah. like, finishing my PhD, for example, like I am not a person who's like, don't rely on external measures of blah, blah, blah, because like sometimes you achieve something hard and you're like, truly, genuinely, I can let go of a lot of the defensiveness I've been carrying around that was making me kind of an asshole for a while. And like, I just like I did it.
No one can ever take this away from me, even if all I ever do for the rest of my life is sit on the couch and eat Cheetos and watch reality TV. I still have a PhD. So I could stop needing to be a know-it-all. So like I'm in favor of that, but also I'm in favor of like, what if you didn't have to spend your entire life in school in order to feel like,
Heather Shannon (53:12.71)
Thank
Emily (53:32.938)
You already know as much as you need to and it's not a source of shame or embarrassment just because there's something you don't know.
Heather Shannon (53:39.974)
Yeah, it's so interesting how we all have our little things, you know. We sure do.
Emily (53:45.475)
Yeah, and like we all have partners who can bring out things we don't love about ourselves and those same partners can bring out like our favorite traits. I feel like one of the most important ways to know if a person is right for you, if you like who you are when you are around them.
Heather Shannon (54:02.458)
Yes. I noticed that in like friendships and just acquaintances, you know, like, I feel like this person sees me a certain way that I don't like. That's not how I want to see myself or this person brings out this other side of me because the way they see me makes me just think I'm like the best thing ever. You know, so I think that's so much of it too. It's like how someone makes us see ourselves in a way. Yeah. Yeah, totally. We were on the
Emily (54:18.744)
Yeah.
Emily (54:23.116)
Yeah. So that we can foster those parts of ourselves. Yeah, absolutely. Where did I start this? the emotional floor plan. Yeah. So...
Heather Shannon (54:32.876)
I've got lot of ADHD, so we digress a lot over here.
Emily (54:34.958)
Play important. Recognizing that you have a fear response to sex or an anger response or a shutdown, a panic, grief response to sex is important because there is no path into the lust space from those stress responses. Does that make sense? And like it takes two chapters for me to explain. is the, we're actually developing a card deck.
Heather Shannon (54:54.982)
that makes sense. Yeah, totally.
Emily (55:03.886)
Because people need to like lay it out. There's a lot of pieces. It's like a puzzle. And they need to like put it out in front of them to see what the relationship is. Because the goal is not to get to the love space. It's to get to the room next door to the love space. The room next door to where the room where it happens. You don't want to get right there, but you want to get in the room next door.
Heather Shannon (55:06.852)
Yeah, that's a great idea. Yes.
Yes, I like that because then it's
Heather Shannon (55:19.334)
Yes.
Emily (55:30.028)
and then allow yourself to transition into the lust space from seeking curiosity or care. No, seeking curiosity or play.
Heather Shannon (55:33.531)
Mm-hmm.
Heather Shannon (55:36.868)
Yes, I think that's brilliant. Because it's like you're creating the conditions, you're not forcing it, you're allowing it. And I also think that mental shift of kind of at least being open to the pleasure is so important.
Emily (55:48.226)
Yeah, and if you are in a pleasure favorable space, you're gonna experience pleasure even if you never do transition into the lust space. And that's an improvement.
Heather Shannon (55:52.986)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Yeah. And I think that for people who are not experiencing much interest in sex, to look at, oh, maybe I'm spending a lot of times in the not pleasure or favorable rooms. That's good to know.
Emily (56:10.316)
Right. So when I tried to follow my own advice of like you take off your clothes, you get in the bed, you let your skin touch your partner's skin, what happened to me was not my body going, yes, what happened to me was I burst into tears. Because I was spending so much time in the fear space. I was so stressed, just like worried about whether or not I was doing it right and doing a good enough job. I was writing a book and working full time and...
Heather Shannon (56:16.41)
Uh-huh. Uh-huh.
Heather Shannon (56:31.462)
Thank
I don't know.
Emily (56:38.486)
What happened was my body would touch my partner's skin and it would say, I'm safe now. And it would just like let go of the stress response. And that came out in tears of like the relief of finally feeling like this is a place where I am fully safe, which is really lovely and nice. And it is not sexy. And what would happen after I finished crying is I would fall asleep because my body was exhausted.
Heather Shannon (56:44.731)
Mm-hmm.
Heather Shannon (56:48.955)
Mm-hmm.
Heather Shannon (57:05.997)
Yeah
Emily (57:08.022)
And then when I woke up, I could like take a bath, take care of myself, and then come back and have a sexy time. And my partner's incredibly generous, patient, understanding response was part of what held us together through this difficult time. He was not judging me. He didn't like shame me with his disappointment that we weren't actually gonna end up having sex today. He was like,
Heather Shannon (57:11.95)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Heather Shannon (57:21.658)
Mm-hmm.
Emily (57:34.722)
completely understanding, which is like, he's again, best person in the world. It was actually shocking to me when I told that story for the first time and somebody was like, I bet he was really disappointed. And I was like, if he was, I never heard about it.
Heather Shannon (57:49.649)
Wow, yeah. I mean, I think the crying and someone being present and holding space for you is so connective. It's just a different kind of thing. Yeah.
Emily (57:57.973)
so connected. Yes. And it was me feeling connected and somewhat him feeling connected, but he really, like the way he feels connected to me is when we are enjoying pleasure, when we are laughing together, when we are stimulating each other sexually, when we are at freaking Disney World and enjoying meeting Mickey Mouse or whatever.
Heather Shannon (58:04.208)
Yeah.
Emily (58:26.37)
Like he feels most connected to me when we are having fun. And that's great. It's good for me as a person.
Heather Shannon (58:32.806)
it. Yeah. And I mean, I also feel like when partners know like maybe we have to go through, I know there's not a crying room, but maybe we need to go through the crying room and the sleep room and the other rooms to get to that. Then I think it also helps people like really hold the space.
Emily (58:46.467)
Yeah.
Emily (58:49.804)
Yeah, I added to the emotional floor plan, also a utility room, which is just like your basic bodily needs. Sometimes you truly are just too exhausted for whatever reason and you can't get there.
Heather Shannon (58:56.027)
Mm-hmm.
Heather Shannon (58:59.814)
Yeah. I think that's very true.
Emily (59:04.342)
A solution to that? Like if you are just, if you're like just like I just do not have the energy. Maybe. If you're like but I do like the idea of us connecting sexually. How about I be pillow princess and lie here and you do stuff to me and there's no demand pressure or expectation that I'm gonna do any stuff to you because I'm exhausted.
Heather Shannon (59:21.113)
Nah
Uh-huh.
Heather Shannon (59:30.949)
Hmm?
Emily (59:31.042)
And there's no expectation that I'll necessarily have an orgasm, but like I get to feel pleasure and that's gonna be nourishing for my body. It's gonna be healing for my body to spend some time experiencing pleasure without performance demand or expectation. The way to ruin this kind of experience is to like do the like pleasure for the person who's exhausted and then turn it into a transaction. I did you, now you do me. No, that was not our agreement.
Heather Shannon (59:46.416)
total day.
Emily (01:00:00.493)
Our agreement was, you do me, and then we lie here and hold each other because I'm exhausted.
Heather Shannon (01:00:10.764)
It's important to communicate these things. And I agree to stick to the communication in Google. This was so amazing. Thank you for just sharing your personal story, sharing all your wisdom. I'm sure people learned so much. If people are wanting more of Emily and their life, more of the wisdom, more of the advice, where should they find you or connect with you?
Emily (01:00:15.416)
Yeah.
Emily (01:00:34.936)
The books are the number one thing. Come Together is the second book about sex and long-term relationships, Come As You Are is the first book about sort of women, broadly defined, women's sexuality, though everybody has, like people of many, many genders have found it useful. And if you're like, I'm in that exhausted part where I don't have, like I don't even want to think about it. Burnout is the book about.
Heather Shannon (01:00:40.922)
Mm-hmm.
Heather Shannon (01:00:47.237)
me.
Heather Shannon (01:00:52.806)
So do
Emily (01:01:02.218)
managing stress and recognizing the ways that the world is against you and the ways you need to build a bubble of love to protect yourself against the ways the world is against you.
Heather Shannon (01:01:14.086)
do love burnout. And I recommend that one a lot, especially for body image. I love the bikini industrial complex chapter. Oh, nice. It's like, it's just so important. It's so true. And I think we often underestimate the impact of media on how we feel as well. So that's usually like my first thing with clients who are struggling with that. I'm like, who are you following on Instagram? What are you watching? Let's let's do like detox of
Emily (01:01:20.824)
That comes directly from Amelia.
Emily (01:01:37.912)
Right. If it does not make you feel good, you don't have to follow it. And the last thing is Amelia and I started an updated podcast. It's called the Feminist Survival Project Zombie Apocalypse Edition 2025. We did it in 2020 for a year leading up to the election. And after this election, we started again, because there's an audience of women who are like, how am I going to make it?
Heather Shannon (01:01:43.802)
Mm-hmm.
Heather Shannon (01:01:54.906)
Sounds appropriate. Yeah.
Emily (01:02:08.268)
day to day. And our job is to be like, here's how we are making it day to day. As people who know all this stuff, we did all this research, we've done all this work. We're not like, Amelia's physically disabled by long COVID and uses a wheelchair. So we're doing this work from a place of like our bodies have been wrecked by the last few years.
Heather Shannon (01:02:08.486)
Totally. Yes.
Heather Shannon (01:02:25.222)
my god
Heather Shannon (01:02:38.331)
Wow.
Emily (01:02:38.606)
And yet we are still able to use all of the information that we've gleaned over the time of like writing these books. So was a feminist survival project, 2025.
Heather Shannon (01:02:43.589)
Yeah.
Heather Shannon (01:02:48.699)
That's amazing. We'll link to that. We'll link to the books and the show notes for anyone who's looking for them. But yeah, thank you again for being here. This was really lovely. And give my best to Rich. All right. Bye, Emily. Thanks, everyone, for listening. We'll catch you next week on another episode of Ask a Sex Therapist. Bye, everybody.
Emily (01:02:57.668)
I totally will. Thank you so much.