This is an AI transcription, apologies for any typos.

[00:00:00] Matt: He is a nice guy, nothing but polite to me when I'm there, but I didn't wanna risk out in myself in case he gave a response that was kind of clearly uncomfortable, which would then mean I wouldn't be able to go back.

[00:00:13] Alex: Welcome to Stories of Men Beneath the Surface. I'm Alex Milia. Join me as we discover what it means to be a man in the modern era.

We've spoken about the many masks of masculinity before on stories of men in society. We all hide parts of ourselves that we think others might perceive as other or different or less masculine, and it can be incredibly draining. Like a lot of men, Matt was a regular, his local walk-in barbershop. He'd go in, make small talk, get his air cut, pay up, and part ways.

But it always felt like he couldn't truly be himself in what he perceived to be a hyper-masculine space.

[00:01:03] Matt: I'm always like, I think, I think with a lot of other queer men have had this sort of slight fear of using the barber and being like fully myself in that space. They're often quite hypermasculine environments, so I do a bit of kind of self-editing. So even though I've been going for such a long period of time, I started to sort of adjust myself on the kind of way in.

So adjusting the sort of little swish in my stat, walking in a way that I feel is a bit more like manly. You know, sitting down like, hi mate, et cetera. And like I don't call anybody mate unless they're a straight man that I'm not familiar with. So the guy who runs the barbers, who usually is the one that cuts my hair, is quite a kind of blokey bloke.

He's got a couple of pictures of his family, like up in front of the chair, talks about football. I found myself then and and have done whenever I've gone to see him trying to bring up quite either mundane topics that feel miles away from anywhere that could turn to relationship or family or social questions.

He is a nice guy. Nothing but polite to me when I'm there, but I didn't wanna risk out in myself in case. He gave a response that was kind of clearly uncomfortable, which would then mean I wouldn't be able to go back, which is kind of a weird thing to say, because I also think that like, surely you'd wanna know if your hairdresser or barber was homophobic, and surely you'd wanna get that out in the open if they had a problem with it, you just wouldn't go back.

But yeah, so, so then that day I, I paid kind of like shuffled out and then sort of like, whew, um, like kind of breathe this sigh of relief almost feeling like, yes, I've gotten away with it.

So yeah, two weeks later, like my hair's like starting to grow back a little bit. I like walked back down, opened the creaky door as usual, went to like sit and wait at the little bench and he was like, oh, hi mate, as normal. And then, um, he said, oh, can you go downstairs? I've had my hair cut downstairs by some of the other people there a couple of times, which is fine, which normal.

So, and I had similar experiences to what I had with the guy who runs the shop and I went down. And just kind of saw and could kind of see instantly this very flamboyant, what I read straight away as, as a gay guy working there. I was surprised to see someone who, yeah, in my opinion, was very visibly flamboyant and queer working there.

Again, like the manager had never said or done anything homophobic, but was just quite a blokey bloke. And so my first thought was like, oh, he's hired this guy. Like I thought I couldn't really compute. So, so the guy like spun the chair around straight away, um, and said like, hi, darling, come and sit down.

Which was strange. And I remember one of the other staff members then came downstairs with another customer. So then I had this kind of, uh, increased anxiety that I was sat next to this elderly person who was getting their hair cut by one of the other staff members, and. I felt super exposed. This goes back to being like at school and going to house parties when I wasn't out to everybody.

And like there would be a gay guy there from another school who I'd never met. You see someone who you know is a bit like you, which is good, but you also think, oh my God, they're gonna clock me straight away. They're gonna out me to everyone at this party. And that was the same kind of feeling. I thought, oh God.

Like I, I, I felt like I was kind of, Uh, I guess about to be outed accidentally in the barbers as a 30 something year old man.

[00:04:25] Alex: It's really interesting in our lives that. Other people can almost bring out our authenticity in who we really are because we can almost play this role of someone that we're not actually who, you know, it's not actually who we are. So it just seems like Carlos gave you that permission to be who Matt Hallward really is.

I'm sure.

[00:04:42] Matt: I'm sure like everybody to an extent will kind of shapeshift a little bit depending on the situation they're in. But I think, um, I think when talking about men specifically, I think. Queer men, you know, have to do it to a, to a much different degree. And it's often about, um, personal safety. It's often about not wanting to be, you know, interrogated with questions that you constantly get from people outside of the community.

Who's the man and who's the woman in the relationship, all of those kinds of things. And so we do kind of shapeshift in that way. And I think what I kind of got from this, Flamboyant, Brazilian Barber was almost a permission to be like, okay, if I, if I want to be a little bit gay in this barber shop and talk about like, the fact that I'm married to a man and the fact that I'm, I'm on the board of an L G B T charity, that that is something that I feel like I'm able to do.

Whereas I really wasn't sure until that. So I think, yeah, you're right. I think giving that permission, you know, albeit whether it was accidentally or not, um, I think, yeah, it's definitely right in situations in

[00:05:54] Alex: my past where I've tried to keep up this pretense of someone who I'm not, it's very tiring.

It's very tiring to pretend that you are a completely different person to who you actually are. So as soon as almost someone else gives you the permission, or interestingly enough, you give yourself the permission. It just feels like all the weight that you were carrying off your sh uh, off your on your shoulders has been lifted completely.

[00:06:20] Matt: Yeah, I think that's exactly right cuz you've got this kind of feeling of, um, this feeling of being caught out and the minute that you, as you say, give yourself permission or someone else does, and the response is, you know, even, even neutral, but ideally positive, it is a huge weight. And you know, whether that is when.

I'm in a taxi and someone asks if I've got a girlfriend, or if that's at an appointment or, or being on the, on, on the phone to someone and they ask like, oh, um, who do you live with? Or, or, or whatever it might be like, I. Feeling able to answer those questions truly, um, or give kind of context to those questions without having to sidestep them.

It's a huge relief. You say, oh, I'm, I'm actually like on my way to see my boyfriend, and they say, oh, great, like, what's his name? Suddenly you feel like, oh, I don't have to be preempting every possible next question and thinking about how I'm gonna sidestep it or how I'm gonna deflect it, or, What lie I will use if I, if I don't want to tell you where I'm, I'm going, et cetera.

And I, I think it's worth saying as well, like I'm, I'm really aware of, um, the, the sort of privilege that I have as someone who, but at least kind of walking down the street, I sometimes would pass as, as not being gay. It

[00:07:39] Alex: is interesting that the sort of this feeling that I'm getting from you is, You still feel like you have to hide certain parts of your personality and who you really are, whether it's walking down the street, being in the supermarket, being in the taxi, or the barbers or whatever.

Why do you feel that

[00:07:54] Matt: way? I feel that way because I think a lot of people within the queer, queer community would attest to this, that attitudes towards queer people, they're still not as open armed and accepting as I think British society and media would like to. Portray and sometimes celebrate. So for example, if, if I go to like a kind of queer event or a queer festival or a queer like party or pride, et cetera, I will often, um, wear stuff that's a lot less boring than, than what I would wear day-to-day.

Like, I'll kind of dress up a little bit, my friends will as well, and like, that's great. But we will, and again, this comes from, you know, having the privilege to be able to afford a taxi, but. We will not travel in public transport wearing that. Um, and when we have, or when we've decided to walk home or even when we've been waiting for a taxi, we will get abuse and stick based on what we're wearing.

And similarly, I had an experience leaving a queer music festival a few years ago. Um, and within 10, 15 minutes of leaving the site, we, we got hate crimed and, and followed and had rocks thrown at us. And so I, I know from my own experiences and others that sometimes when you. Don't choose to self edit, and you either, you know, come as you are or you come as a slightly more embellished version of yourself.

If you're going to a party and you wanna wear something a bit kind of fancy, et cetera, that you are through no fault of your own, often opening yourself to at best ridicule and at worst danger and abuse. And that kind of trickles down into not just whether someone wants to go out wearing. A vest or a skirt or makeup, but it trickles right down into whether people feel comfortable disclosing who their partner is or whether they feel comfortable.

Correcting someone if they get misgendered and asking someone to use, you know, could you actually use these pronouns for me? That, that kind of fear has a huge ripple effect and is, is often why, you know, spaces like our clubs or our prides, et cetera, or, or even just being at one another's houses. It's often why we cherish spaces that are queer because to a degree, You get to forget about all of that stuff.

I'm very lucky that I've, I've always worked in really inclusive places for, for queer people, but you know, lots of people have to self-edit at work, and then they may have to self-edit when they go home to the people they live with, whether that's family members or flatmates, they don't know very well.

People have to self-edit young people at school, and then when you get public transport or you've free a taxi or whatever else it might be, talking to a gp. All of these things that, you know, it really does kind of accumulate for a lot of people and that can be quite a hard thing and I, I am really lucky that.

In almost all avenues of my life, I'm able to be very open about who I am, and I'm lucky that I can self-edit to a degree. And you know, I've, I've gone to club nights of my friends before where I've actually worn like coat and joggers. And then when I've gotten into the club, I've like, I've got like little short shorts on and I've taken the joggers off, but like, and then we'll put them back on before getting in the taxi because I'm worried that taxis will drive off and not pick us up, which has happened before.

I'm worried that we'll get abuse from. People passing by as were waiting for taxis, which has also happened. And that is something that I think lots of women probably experience. A similar thing with self-editing in terms of the way you dress around safety and people from other marginal groups will understand in particular that idea of self-editing.

But um, there is a uniqueness to how the queer community experience it, because people who aren't queer don't have to self edit. Because they're not queer, if that makes sense. A straight person would never have to self edit because they're straight, and I think that's why it's kind of a unique thing.

[00:11:44] Alex: It's interesting you say that because as as a straight guy, even when I may meet other straight guys who are acquaintances or you just meet people in general, I find some people are not actually being themself. They're almost trying to elevate their masculinity or elevate. I'm. Putting myself out as more of a, a masculine alpha male man than I actually am.

And it's, it's interesting because I, I feel like, you know, like yourself, you know, you get older, you start to see for people for who they really are, and you start to be able to read people much better because I'm sure you're the same. You know, we're both living in London. I mean, I've traveled as well.

Like you have, you meet thousands of people. We almost. Take it for granted actually how many people we meet. And when you look into people's eyes as you get older, you start to see people who, for who they really are. And so I've had that sort of experience with people and I actually have to be honest as well, and say maybe sometimes I've tried to elevate my masculinity and I think perhaps I self-edit when I'm with a, a, you know, an alpha male old school.

Cockney taxi driver and he starts talking about football and I, I like football and, and all these so-called alpha male sports boxing or, so you do start to elevate more so, which I find interesting. So I think there's a lot of self-editing going on in the world and how different the world would be if we're all just exactly who we are as people.

Yeah,

[00:13:10] Matt: I definitely agree and I, and I definitely, I think that self editing is definitely something. That anyone and everyone can experience and like the example you've just given is, I'm sure there'll be other people that can relate to that who are also straight, straight men. Obviously selfing your kind of, your queerness is very unique to queer people.

But in that same sense, I think there is this kind of, I think this all kind of links in to this idea of kind of the, what many people try and project as like what being a man should be all about and, and I think that's why there probably are parallels and I think. Where self editing as a, as, as a gay guy comes into that, is that part of that, you know, ideal idea of what, what makes a man a man is like being straight.

And I think that's why a lot of they, they're straight guys that might see gay people as like lesser than them, or less, less manly than them. Um, which. May or may not be part of why, you know, lots of, lots of gay men with body issues want to get as big and as buff as possible. Like, you know, some of that might be to do with striving towards this specific idea of masculinity.

[00:14:12] Alex: You are in a community of people where, You're all accepted of each other. You feel like you can be who you really are, and I think it's all about having that tribe of people that you resonate with. I interviewed the comedian Stephen k Amos, and he talked about this. Who is your tribe? Who do you want to be around?

Is it something that clothes that you're wearing, the, the, the, the flamboyant nature of the clothes that you, you are wearing when you go into a different festival? I think you said you were at a queer festival. What is that bringing out in them? It's almost like they're being confronted with it in their eyes.

So they want to enact some sort of violence to actually make themselves feel better because they're in the closet themself and they can't be authentic. They can't be who they really are. And I think there's something in

[00:14:55] Matt: that. Yeah, I mean, I think there's, there's, there's definitely something around like internalized homophobia and, and how that manifests, um, you know, in people who aren't yet out and, and, you know, may act out in homophobic ways, but also in people who, who are now out, and I think I've got internalized homophobia.

I think a lot of gay men still have internalized homophobia and, and internalized queer phobia, you know, for by men, any other queer men and, and queer women, any queer people. Uh, and that comes from. Having this idea drummed into our heads all our lives that this is wrong, this is, this is alien. Um, to, to kind of normality and hopefully internalized queerphobia will be, will, will, will become a thing of the past.

I mean, it become a, a thing of the past quicker than Queerphobia generally will because, you know, you'd hope now, you know, section 28 is long gone and, you know, teachers in schools are doing a better job at, at including things in lesson plans. We see more media geared towards young people like. Heart stopper, et cetera, that's about celebrating queer identities.

Hopefully that will be something that, that, that shrinks a little bit. But I mean, obviously not all of these guys who, who are throwing rocks at people and chasing them, uh, they're obviously not all gay. Um, because otherwise no one would be reproducing. We'd all be gay. Um, so I think, uh, I, I think, uh, it's a really interesting one that we could probably chat about for ages, to be honest.

But you're right, it does come down to, you know, who is planting these seeds and you know, it's always gonna come from a more senior or adult figure. And, uh, yes, it is a tricky one.

[00:16:29] Alex: It was interesting, you, you mentioned school before, because I have to be honest, uh, the school that I went to, so this was 1998 to 2003 at my high school and.

There was no one that I knew of. It was about a thousand kids in the school. There's no one who was openly gay whilst at school. And I think the good thing about you said about section 28 and and schools and things like that is it's more, it's more open, it's more accepted. Of course, there's a lot that can be done in society, you know?

Absolutely. But the, I'm, I'm curious to know whether you think there's been any sort of small steps forward since. The late nineties, the early nineties. I'm guessing you are, you might be a similar age to me.

[00:17:11] Matt: Yeah. I mean, I think, um, I think there have been, there have been steps forward, um, o o obviously significantly since, since section 28, um, became a thing of the past.

I think. Um, we are now in a. In, in a time where worryingly, the, the current government we've got is really putting us at risk of, of a lot of that being rolled back. So we've heard, uh, you know, our, our own prime minister saying that trans kids who come out privately to teachers or support staff at school, it should be the responsibility of those teachers or support staff to then go and out them to their parents, which is like outrageous and, and could put those kids at harm.

And that's something that he thinks should be. You know, enshrined in law or in school policy, and we've had other ministers who have said that the same sex relationships shouldn't be, um, included within, within the education setting. And, and that it, you know, it's, it's kind of pulling people up too fast.

And, um, I think we are now at a point where a lot of the progress that has been made, there is a real risk that it, it will be rolled backwards. So I think it's really important to be aware of that and keep an eye on it. And, and also to be aware of the fact that. Things might have progressed for like L g b young people at school, but just in the same way as this, in wider society, the, you know, the situation for trans kids is still pretty volatile in a lot of schools.

Um, and we've not gone a trans-affirming or trans supportive government. And so teachers who want to do the right thing and support all kids, trans kids and kids that aren't trans, aren't given the support or the autonomy or the confidence to always do that because, We have got a trans hostile government.

And, and I think that is the biggest thing in, in terms of safety for queer kids at school, that that really needs to kind of be addressed, uh, by, by everybody kind of, you know, I got called gay all the time at school and um, and I think people just, yeah. Uh, it might have been because I was a little bit different.

I dunno if it, if it's, if they all thought, if they really processed it and thought, oh, he's definitely gay, that's why we're gonna say it. I think it was probably just because. They noticed I was a little bit different. And I remember going to like a local club that we would, we would often go to when we were at school.

Th this occasion was after we'd finished Sycamore and we, we'd been going there kind of while we were in Smore and this guy came up to me and said, oh, um, Kind of waved and said, oh, gay Matt. And, um, the, the girl I stood next to who was from our class said, you can't say that he's actually come out now.

And then the guy apologized and said, oh, I'm really sorry. I wouldn't, I wouldn't have called you that if I'd known you actually were gay. And I thought that was just quite interesting. Um, and kind of links in with what you say. I mean, I'm pretty sure I used to call stuff gay at school. Def definitely not people, but you know, we say, oh, that's well gay.

And like, I'm, I'm 90% sure I probably said that. And so I think. I'm, I'm glad that we've moved on from that being an insult, but yeah, it's just interesting how that unless you were a queer person and that was being directed at you often, that those words weren't necessarily used with the impact, the intended impact that they, they would've had.

[00:20:07] Alex: It's kind of really interesting as well that on this kind of idea of saying gay this, gay, that when you're insulting someone that it was to do with vulnerability. So say for example, if you said something was particularly personal, so it was around this sort of idea of feminine, something to do with feminine related to gay.

Which I found interesting. I don't know whether you had a similar experience to that.

[00:20:29] Matt: Yeah, definitely. And, and I think, to be honest, I think a lot of homophobia is, is rooted in sexism. And, and a lot of it is this idea that, you know, by being gay, you are more closely affiliated to, to what it means to be feminine and, uh, go like what it means to be a woman.

And so there's this idea that a lot of it is rooted in Yeah, sexism and, and that idea of vulnerability is. Associated more with women than it is men. And I think that's why, for straight men in particular, there is this kind of challenge around being able to be more open and vulnerable around mental health and uh, uh, you know, around anything else.

Um, because if this idea that that's a women's thing and that's not a man's thing, whereas, you know, perhaps gay men, queer men find it easier to be. Slightly more open books with vulnerability because we've been kind of painted with disassociation with women for all of history. Like we, you know, we, and, and we don't have a problem with that either cuz there's nothing wrong with that.

But we are so used to this idea that we're, we're called feminine. You know, what is feminine? What does that even mean? But we're so used to having had that, that, um, Yeah, that, that, that maybe that's why we're more comfortable generally than, than straight men with vulnerability.

[00:21:41] Alex: What's interesting as well, because I've met actually really masculine alpha male men and find out later that they're gay, and you do have this, I remember the first time that happened and I was kind of shocked by that.

But then after, since, I mean it's not really a big deal now, but sometimes we all t like you say, we automatically have this, well, that guy's more feminine, so. He might be gay. Whereas actually, you know, some people don't conform to the stereotypes that you, that you think knowing what you know. Now, this guy Carlos, has kind of helped you to just be who you really are when you go to the barbers.

What would you say to Matt of a few months ago when he was having his haircut by his usual barber before Carlos, if you had to go back and speak to him?

[00:22:24] Matt: I think I'd say try and be less afraid to kind of take those jumps in certain situations. I think it's really important that like everybody's safety is first, but kind of at the end of the day.

What was the worst that was gonna happen to me, sat in a barbershop if I'd come out, you know, if they go, if they go wrong, then they go wrong. But, you know, in a situation that feels fairly safe and fairly kind of contained, you know, take that risk a little bit more. And I feel like the kind of sort of smile and sentiment I got from the main guy as I left was more kind of upbeat than he'd been previously.

So actually, I feel like that. The whole knock on effect of that was a, a good thing generally. So yeah, don't, don't be afraid to jump as much.

One

[00:23:07] Alex: in five LGBTQ plus people have experienced a hate crime or incident. Because of their sexual orientation and or their gender identity in the last 12 months alone, four in five anti LGBTQ plus incidents and hate crimes go unreported with young people, especially reluctant to go to the police and report it.

So it's understandable why Matts would feel the need to self edit. Even in unremarkable circumstances, like getting your hair cut. It made me think after the conversation with Matt finished how straight men like myself take it for granted that LGBTQ plus people have to constantly come out when meeting new people.

And in 2023, it's easy to think that we're living in more progressive times, but there's still a lot of work that needs to be done. It's not just about tolerance from straight communities, it's about wholehearted acceptance. Once we have this in society, People like Matt will have a lot less anxiety around these inner conversations around having to come out.

What the barber might be thinking about him when he's getting his haircut, what the black cabby is thinking about both him and his partner when he is giving them a lift home, or even when a stranger is just looking over on the bus.