Foreign.

Podcast is brought to you by Head Start Basketball.

For all the players that we work with, we do film with them throughout the year.

So on average it's about eight games.

And our thing is we can help you a little bit over time by watching your film.

And it's universal basketball.

Okay?

You, you just stood there with your knee straight when you could have went over there and boxed that guy out, right?

Or you're not in help here, is there a reason why?

Or you're standing at the wing, your teammate's driving down the slot, should you relocate to the corner.

So it's universal basketball stuff.

So we do that throughout the year, which I think is a really good way to have a relationship with them, number one.

And you're a basketball tutor for them, right?

And then for the guys that are serious about playing in college, it's preparation and it's not going to be the first time that they've heard terminology.

So when they get to college, we think that some of those guys will be a little ahead of the pack.

Kevin Driscoll is currently the Director of Real Hoops and has spent the last 25 years coaching or playing basketball at the high school and college level, including 10 years as a Division 1 assistant coach.

In his role at Real Hoops, Driscoll is a recruiting advisor, exposure camp operator and film study coach.

Driscoll previously spent four years as a men's basketball assistant coach at Marist College from 2018 to 2022 and also served as an assistant coach at Loyola University of Maryland of the Patriot league in the 20172018 season.

He was an assistant coach at New Jersey Institute of Technology in 2016-17 and was an assistant at Holy Cross from 2013 to 2016.

Driscoll has four years of experience as a director of Hoop Group Elite Camp and began his collegiate coaching career with three years as an assistant at Albright College from 2006 to 2009.

Driscoll began his coaching career as the head boys basketball coach at his alma mater Hamburg High School in Pennsylvania from 2004 to 2006.

As a player, Driscoll was a four year letter winner at Misericordia University, helping the Cougars to a pair of ECAC Division 3 postseason tournament appearances.

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Associate head coach at Montclair State University, and you're listening to the Hoop Heads podcast.

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Sure to take a few notes as you listen to this episode with Kevin Driscoll, director of Real Hoops.

Hello and welcome to the Hoop Heads podcast.

It's Mike Cleansing here without my co host Jason Suckel tonight, but I am pleased to be joined by Kevin Driscoll from Real Hoops.

Kevin, welcome to the Hoop Heads pod.

Thanks Mike, appreciate you having me on.

Thank you very much.

I've been listening for a long time.

Appreciate you as a listener and I'm excited to have you on.

Looking forward to diving into all of the interesting things that you've been able to do throughout your basketball life.

Let's start by going back in time to when you were a kid.

Tell me a little bit about some of your first experiences with the game of basketball.

What made you fall in love with it?

Oh man, I, I mean it started maybe like five or six, like first like kind of like memories basketball.

My dad was a local coach, you know, he was the junior high which was the seventh grade coach.

Our high school was like seventh to 12th grade at the time, which is pretty wild to think about now.

So he was the junior high coach for probably like 10 or 12 years and he also coached like elementary as well.

And so I remember being in kindergarten and my dad, he ran his own business so he would pick me up half days at like noon.

I would go have lunch with him and then he would take me to the seventh graders practice.

And so it was right from there like I was the little kid dribbling the, you know, the ball in the corner of the gym and just want to be around the older kids and thinking they were like the coolest people in the world and watching them pass and make shots and things that I couldn't do.

But when I watched them do it, I knew that, like, that's what I wanted to do when I got older.

So it's just one of those things, like early core memory for me in my life and just, yeah, that's, that's kind of how it all started for me and a little rinky dink town in Pennsylvania.

So when you think about your dad as a coach and going to the gym and watching him and just, I'm sure even if you weren't consciously aware of the conversations that you were having about his team and about coaching, when you think about yourself and what you eventually became as a coach, what are some things that maybe were influenced by your dad?

What, what characteristics did you steal from your dad that became kind of a part of you when you became a coach?

I, I didn't, I didn't think I would be, but, like, he was pretty old school, you know, and I, I think old school now especially is like a really good thing.

And I, I, I think that was part of it.

And he was pretty simple in a good way, not too complicated.

And it was all about the fundamentals, you know, and at that time, it was a public school that wasn't like a basketball powerhouse.

So it was a lot of teaching.

And can we get these kids to, you know, make layups from their right and their left hand, you know, whatever their strong and their weak hand was, can we get them to dribble with both hands, share the ball, play defense the right way?

So it was, it was really a simple, simple game from what he was teaching.

And a lot of those things is, you know, definitely things I learned early on.

As you started getting a little bit older and started to get more into the game, what do you remember about just how you went about getting better?

Did you approach it in any way scientifically or in an organized fashion, or were you just kind of out there playing and getting your, getting your work up in the gym?

I know it's, look, it's totally different today because of all the access that people have to YouTube and just trainers and all this stuff.

But just tell me a little bit about how you grew up in the game, trying to prove and be the best player you could be back in the day.

Yeah, I mean, I, I'll be honest.

I mean, I probably, you know, wouldn't be a great example if you studied, did a case study on me.

Mine was just, my, mine was just playing.

I mean, I played all the time.

I love to play, but like, there wasn't anyone locally who was like, oh, you can go work out with that guy, or he's a trainer.

Like, there was none of that.

I was really fortunate in the.

In the summers.

I would, you know, go to camps in the summer.

So, like, I went to the Pocono Invitational Camp, which I ended up running 20 years later.

Maybe I don't know what the math is, but, you know, going to.

Going to those camps in the Poconos was great because, like.

Like, it was, like, 92, and, like, Bobby and Danny Hurley were there, and they were like college kids and, like, their dad, Coach Hurley, was, like, running the drills, and the Hurleys were, like, sitting there.

Bobby and Danny both had full heads of hair at the time, which they don't anymore.

And then, like, Kevin boy was there, who was, like, this young hotshot coach at St. Patrick's and Elizabeth, and, like, you know, he was just on the rise.

And, like, Herb McGee was doing the shooting and teaching.

And so those are, like, super core memories, too, of, like, development and learning and things like that.

But, like, once I got back to, like, my hometown, there was no one that was, like, teaching those things.

So it was just like, play as much as you can, play with the older guys as much as you can.

And, like, getting into high school, I would play in the summers with, like, you know, men's leagues and things like that.

Older, slower guys that would just beat the crap out of you and teach you how to play.

But, yeah, I mean, I was an average high school player.

I was good enough to play in college at probably an average level, so I'm definitely no superstar player, but it's.

It's.

Yeah, it's one of my great loves, the game of basketball.

What's your favorite memory from being a high school basketball player?

What stands out for you?

You know, a lot.

We.

We were like, this little, like, farm town in Pennsylvania where I grew up, and there's a town or city, small city called Reading, Pennsylvania.

And, you know, Danielle Marshall, who played in the NBA, played at Reading High School, and Stu Jackson, who was a long time, you know, big college player.

I think he played at Wisconsin.

And then, you know, recently Lonnie Walker was a Reading High school graduate, played at m. The NBA for a few years.

So my little farm town went down and beat those guys.

And it was, at the time, the worst loss in the history of that gymnasium.

And when we came out on the floor before the game, their student section was singing, Old McDonald had a farm.

Because that's just.

We were all farm guys, you know, so that was.

That was definitely a great memory.

And we had it.

We had a good.

We had a good little high school team.

We fell short in a lot of the big games, unfortunately, but we.

We had a lot of fun.

And, you know, a couple of us still text once a week to this day.

So as you know from all the people you talk to on these podcasts, just like how basketball just brings people and keeps people together is really cool.

Yeah, that's what it's all about.

I mean, the connection that you build long after the wins and losses fall away, the relationships that you build, whether it's with your coaches or whether it's your teammates, those are the things that, again, you remember long after the.

Long after your time together on the court is over.

The relationships are the ones that still.

Still stick around.

Did you always know you wanted to play college basketball?

Was that a dream that you had as a kid?

When you were 10, where'd you want to go to school?

Where was.

Where was your dream school?

Where'd you want to go?

Well, when I was 10, it was 1992, and I had just told you about, like, the Bobby Hurley thing at being at the camp, and it was Bobby Hurley and like Christian Laitner.

So I want.

Yeah, I mean, Duke, if.

When I was 10 years old, I thought I was going to Duke for sure, ye know, and then.

And then three years later, a friend from my hometown, his dad.

Was a.

An alum of North Carolina.

And I remember three years later, we went to North Carolina camp.

And then that all changed.

I fell in love with North Carolina.

And there was a kid from.

There was a rising freshman.

They were.

All the players were on campus in the summer.

There was this rising freshman from Daytona, Florida, who was like six, seven, hitting, threes, windmilling.

And then Jerry Stackhouse and Rasheed Wallace came back for like, an alumni game.

And Vince Carter, who I'm talking about from Daytona, he hadn't played one college game yet.

And they played this pickup game.

It was Shaman Williams, Ed Kota, Serge Wicker.

I mean, it was unbelievable.

And Vince Carter, like, windmilled on Jerry Stackhouse and like, then North Carolina became my team for a couple years.

So I guess.

I guess I was a little bit of a front runner at.

At that point.

I don't know.

You can root for Duke and Carolina at the same time.

That's a little.

Yeah, I. I switched, you know.

Well, I've been a Carolina guy my whole life.

And so just in the last.

Whatever.

So two weeks ago, they opened up against Central Arkansas, who.

John Schulman, who coaches at Central Arkansas, has been a friend of mine through the podcast for, I don't know, seven years, since I.

He was one of my first guests when I.

When I first started the show and I retired, and I retired in October.

And so one of the things that was always on my bucket list is I wanted to go and see a Carolina game in Carolina.

And of course, obviously, when I was teaching, it just wasn't usually feasible for me to be able to do that.

So I look up, when I retire, I'm looking up the Carolina schedule, and lo and behold, I see their very first game of the year, this year is against Central Arkansas.

So I texted Schulman.

I'm like, hey, man, can you get me a couple of tickets to, you know, to the North Carolina game?

He's like, well, let me work on it and see what I can do.

So he got me some tickets and my wife and my one daughter, who's here and not in college like my other two, we drove down to Carolina and got into the shoot around.

And then Jeff Lebo, who was friends with Shulman, gave me and my wife, my daughter, along with some other people that were there from Central Arkansas, a tour of the Carolina locker room.

Got to see the Jordan shoe wall, the whole film room, all the Jordan murals that they have in there in the hallways and stuff, and got to shoot around on the court at the Dean Dome.

I was like a little kid.

So you talk about being somebody being 10 years old.

My wife's.

My wife's like, you look like a little kid out there just taking.

Taking some shots.

My daughter's taking pictures of me standing at half court in the Dean Dome.

So again, as a little kid, it's just one of those things that.

Yeah, I was.

I was.

I was just like you, man.

I was totally unrealistic.

And I was probably even unrealistic up until the time I was, like, a junior in high school.

I still thought I was going to Duke or North Carolina or Ohio State at the time, and just because, again, there wasn't any information out there the way there is today.

So, yeah, I could totally relate.

Tell me about Misericordia.

I went.

I went to Misericordia.

I actually originally went to Albright College just for a semester.

My choices were Albright College and Misericordia my senior year in high school, and I had a teammate who was really good in high school, and he was recruited by Albright, and that was kind of like, why they were recruiting me and it was local.

So I kind of just went there because it was local.

That kid ended up being like on the all rookie team and it just wasn't the spot for me.

So I went to Misericordia.

I played for Dave Martin, he's the athletic director now at Scranton, whose women's team just beat Pitt.

As you, I'm sure you're aware, I'm a huge Advocate for Division 3.

I love the level.

I played with Willie Chandler at Misericordia, who's the head coach at Misericordia now.

And he scored.

You can look this up.

I'm 99% sure he scored 2,898 points and he had a career average of 26.1 per game.

I think he's the only reason I played college basketball because he was so good that he drew so much attention.

All I had to do was be able to catch and make a layup or get his offensive rebound and throw it back out to him.

And so I, you know, freshman year, I took my lumps.

And then sophomore, the Senior, probably like 20 minutes a game.

And we had a couple good teams and it was really fun.

A lot of guys we went to school with ended up being like coaches now like Willie, you know, Will's the head coach there at Misericordia.

There's some other guys at different, various levels.

One of my teammates is from college, is a big time ref now.

Ed Corliss, he's ref some, you know, Big east games, Big Ten games.

And he's, he's really working his way up the, the referee chart.

So it's cool to see all those guys staying at it, staying in it to some extent.

When did you know you wanted to get into coaching?

Was that something that you were thinking about while you were still playing or did that not hit you after your playing career until after your playing career was over?

Yeah, exactly.

I had no idea.

And then, you know, I'll be honest with you, I was like, not very motivated in my early 20s to, you know, get on into the real world.

Which, you know, you see that a lot in young males.

You know, they don't grow up till they're about 30.

So I was even more delayed than that.

So I, I had, you know, I got a job like back in my hometown.

Like a little marketing job is in between, you know, an intern and in an actual real position.

And.

The, the school that I went to, my alma mater, they were, they had a coaching change that summer and so I would just go up and work out with the guys and play with them and lift and stuff.

And I just told the athletic director, I said, just while you're trying to find a coach, just give me the key.

I'll come, let the guys in.

I'll work them out.

I'll shoot around with them.

And then once you find a coach, if there's any way I could be the coach's assistant, you know, I would love to just kind of be around you, and that's really all I wanted to do.

And they went two months, and they couldn't find a coach.

And I guess they got desperate one day, and they said, hey, we want you to be the coach.

And I was like.

Of what?

They're like the varsity team.

I was like.

I was like, all right.

So I ended up doing it, and whatever the school board is, is like, maybe it's seven people that vote, right?

So you need the majority, right?

So you need to get, you know, four votes, you know, versus the three.

And I got six votes.

One person voted against me.

The person that voted against me was my dad.

Nice.

There you go.

Yeah.

So he didn't.

He didn't.

He didn't want to.

He didn't want to play favorite, so he voted against me.

But anyway, so I got.

I got that job.

And it was.

It was just, you know, a step above the Bad News Bears.

And, you know, thank God for that, because I really knew nothing about coaching.

And it was just kind of like.

My first year was kind of like, I'm the energy coach.

Get you to play hard, you know, exert as much energy as you can, run two or three plays.

And I was.

Definitely wasn't tricking anyone with my, you know, whiteboard, let's just say that.

But we made an improvement from, like, two wins to eight wins.

And then my second year, we went from eight to 500.

We made the playoffs.

We lost at the buzzer in the playoffs, and everyone was really excited.

And, you know, it was good.

And then I. I was fortunate enough that I was able to latch on at Albright College in Reading, Pennsylvania.

So I went there after coaching at Hamburg High School in Pennsylvania, and then I spent three years with Rick Ferry at Albright College, and that was great.

Unfortunately, I couldn't dedicate as much time to coaching because I also worked in the admissions office.

So it was kind of like recruiting first and then, you know, be a part of the coaching staff.

But, you know, the.

The guys that were in that program then.

Brit Moore is the head coach of Elizabethtown College Mike Larkin is now on the staff at Rutgers.

Adam Van Zels is the head coach of Arcadia.

Ryan Van Zels is the head coach of Drew.

He just got that job.

So that, that was four guys right there.

And I'm, I'm, you know, I hate to find out who I might be leaving out, but there's, that's four guys right there that are now full time coaches.

Three are head coach one in the Big Ten.

And there was a lot of guys that just like, you know, really loved hoops and, and like Mike Larkin.

I mean I used to run like camps like in the off season and he, he would work like all my camps on the weekends, at nights.

Like he was all in.

Like he wasn't, he wasn't as much thinking about the Saturday night as like, how can I, how can I work out five or six local kids and get them better?

Which is pretty cool.

At this point at Albright, are you thinking that this is going to become your career or are you still kind of looking at it as I'm going to be working a regular job and if I can find these part time positions just to kind of feed my coaching, Feed my coaching Jones, that's what I'm going to do.

Or what was your mindset at this point?

I definitely thought career.

I, I wasn't worried about, you know, I was just thinking about basketball 24 7, you know, so these are, these are the things a lot of people admit on these basketball podcasts versus the real world.

Like I wasn't worried about making a million million dollars or my 401k at that point in time.

You know, again, I hate to say it, but I was just thinking about how can I get this to a full time thing?

Like, how do I do it right?

And this is like the early, you know, 2006, 2007.

And I would call, email anyone, it didn't matter.

So I literally would go through the America east, the nec, the Ivy, the patent.

I swear I would call these coaches, office numbers, just try to connect, try to understand what to do.

And this is a true story.

So Joe Jones was the head coach at Columbia and he called me back, one of 80 people to actually call me back.

He called me back.

When he called me, I thought it was a prank call.

And we talked for like 15 to 20 minutes.

And this is crazy what he told me.

And then actually what happened, he was like, listen, man, I played Division 3.

I forget if he coached Division 3.

I don't remember, but he played Division 3 and he's like, if you want to coach Division 1, then you gotta quit coaching Division 3.

And I was like, what?

I was like, yeah, you just gotta get out of Division 3 and you gotta take a different route.

And I had like, I just didn't understand what he was saying.

He's like, you gotta work for the hoop group.

You gotta work for Rob Kennedy.

You gotta do something like that.

And then I just started working every hoop group event there was for the next year.

And then, coincidentally, the hoop group was now looking for a move for a new facility.

And I was friends with, you know, I got pretty tight with Mike Farrelly, who was the director of the elite camps.

He's an assistant coach at Notre Dame now.

And, you know, Mike had told me, hey, we're looking at all these places to move the camp from the college in New Jersey they were leaving there.

I said, well, Albright, you know, we have.

Six indoor courts, and we have a parking lot in the back with six more courts.

So we have like 13 courts or 12 or 13 courts.

And like, really?

I was like, yeah.

So, like, hey, man, we'll come up and look at it.

And so Rob Kennedy and Mike Fairley came up and, like, I was like the liaison.

I was walking around with the president, the ad, and they're like, yeah, let's do it.

Let's.

Let's come to Albright.

So when they got there that summer.

I was again, like, the liaison.

So talk about your dedication.

I basically took my two week, two weeks vacation from the admissions office and just helped the hoop group guys run the camp the whole summer.

So it was like I was mopping floors, I was blowing leaves off the outdoor courts.

I was picking guys up at the airport.

You know, I met Kevin Boyle out front.

He literally dropped Kyrie Irving off to come to the camp.

Like, anything they needed me to do, I was doing.

And then at the end of that summer, they saw, like, I would, you know, I was in it, and they had a job available in the Poconos, and they're like, do you want to take it?

And I knew that wasn't going to be the way that Joe Jones, like, drew up the playbook to go and run the camps in the Poconos.

But I also knew it would help me get in, like, with the, you know, organization.

So.

So that was like 2009.

Then I went up and I spent the end of the summer running camps in the Poconos.

And I did that for, like the next year and a half.

What did you like about running camp?

Did you like it?

Yeah.

I mean, yes, I love it.

Like, I love being on the court teaching the fundamentals.

Like, camp is fun.

It's old school, and, you know, a lot of the times it's like more than middle school age kids up in the Poconos and, And being able to kind of develop and mold them and just be able to, like, teach them, like, new stuff that no one's ever taught them is like one of the fun parts about coaching, as we all know.

Like telling.

Telling a player, hey, try this or try that, and help them correct something or fix something and actually see him do it is like, it's the most corny, cliche thing, but it's awesome.

Like, that's why people coach.

Camp's really hard.

It's.

It's.

It's a pretty much 24 hours.

You know, you sleep with one eye open when you're running camp.

It's really grueling, but when it's over, it's.

It's a really proud accomplishment.

What were some of the key relationships that you built during that time at hoop group that helped you as you moved on in your coaching career?

Oh, man, so many.

So I went from the Poconos and then one of.

One of our co.

So one of our co workers at the hoop group, he had just left for Manhattan.

And this was the time, like I keep saying, these Notre Dame, Manhattan, you know, Sienna, Lasalle, all these guys went on, you know, different coaching careers and jobs.

But.

But we had one guy leaving.

He went to Manhattan, Matt Grady.

And then I ended up switching over from the Pocono camps to the elite camps.

And I joined Chad Babel, who now owns and runs made hoops, a little entity you may have heard of.

So.

So I went over and.

And worked with them and, and.

And what happened?

And I didn't realize this is like, a lot of people, like, college coaches are not college coaches.

High school coaches, AAU coaches, parents especially, really appreciated at the time you trying to get them to come to the camp and let them know, like, hey, you need to be here, because there's going to be 300 college coaches here.

And they appreciated the platform.

So I started developing relationships with, you know, again, those three groups of people.

The high school coaches, the AAU coaches, and the parents.

And what happened was, is like, now I'm like, man, I know, like, all these people in New Jersey and all these people in Philly and New York City, and it went from like D.C. to Boston.

And I could, you know, if I didn't know the person.

It would take one call to get in front of the people, you know.

And I started understanding that that was going to be my advantage, that when I talked to college coaches, I could fill them in on the information.

Hey, you like this kid from Jersey City.

Here's his deal.

You like this kid from South Philly here.

And I knew everything.

And, like, if you want to recruit him, you got to call this guy, right?

Call the AAU coach, call his uncle.

Don't call him.

Don't call her.

So I was helping college coaches, like, really vet a lot of the processes with a lot of players, you know, And I also got really into the academic side.

During that time.

We started an academic elite camp.

So I would always have a printout.

And I still, like, I remember seeing IV assistants and I say, here, here, take this list.

And I literally would give them a printout and there'd be 56 names on that.

And the range was.

The range went from kids that maybe weren't good enough for the Ivy, that ended up going to Tufts, to kids that went to Stanford.

But out of those X amount of names, they could.

They could start doing their research and find guys that could be good fits.

So I just kind of started showing people that I had the knowledge of who's out there for them to recruit.

And as you know, Mike.

You know, the five guys you put into the game have a lot to do with you, you know, winning those games.

Right.

So for me, for me to be able to tell all these people, like, and help them get good players, they.

They saw that I had value.

Yeah.

There's no question that that type of information and being plugged in in that way is super valuable.

It's funny, because one of the questions that I love to ask coaches is just how do you start your list?

Like, where does your list come from?

The initial group of whatever.

Some coaches say it's 30, some guys say it's 50, some guys say it's 75.

Like, where does that list come from?

And your story there that you're just telling, like, that's kind of where it starts, right?

You get some information from somebody and you put the kid on the list, and then obviously the coaches then go from there and do their own evaluation and figure out, hey, is this a kid that we want to recruit that's a good fit for our program?

But I'm always kind of fascinated how you go from this wild west of grassroots basketball to how do you narrow that down even to the 50 or 60 kids that you wanna.

That you Wanna take a look at?

And again, that's whether you're Stanford, whether you're nyu, whether you're whoever.

How do you figure out who those kids are going to be that you're going to recruit?

And I think what that story you just told kind of gives people a little bit of an idea of.

Of where it comes from.

Right.

There are just people who are plugged in, and in that moment in time in your life, that's.

That's where you were, if that makes any sense.

Yeah, I was a lot more plugged in then than I am now, I can tell you that.

It's great.

It's crazy because it's, it's being plugged in is something you have to work at.

It's a skill.

And then you have to be able to communicate with people and you have to be able to, you know, be effective in what you're saying and how you're explaining, you know, players.

And, and you also have to be right.

You have to be like, in.

You can't always be like totally on the money with an evaluation, but you have to be close.

Like, you have to be in.

In, you know, in the Wheelhous.

Sure.

Because if, because if you just give him a list and all those players aren't even close, then that's the last time you're ever gonna.

That's the last time you're ever going to talk to that coach.

How long did it take you to feel confident that your evaluations were on.

Point being being around, you know, a lot of these grassroots basketball players, or like, not players, but grassroots guys that have been around and they've seen guys go through their programs and just, just, you know, talking to them and hearing their stories and they, they're saying, hey, I got this guy.

He reminds me of, of this guy who's now at St. John's or whatever.

And.

And then the other thing is, like at the hoop group is like, you're at all these camps, you're at all these AAU tournaments, you're at high school showcases.

You're always sitting on the baseline and you've, You've seen those guys, you know, that are evaluators and they have their own recruiting services.

And I was super lucky.

You know, it was the first I met.

Met Tom Kanchowski when I was at the hoop group.

And then Norm Evanson, I don't know if you know that name, but Norm, he, he passed away a few years ago and sort of Tom Kanchowski, of course, but Norman, like, I used to love Sitting next to him and talking about him, and he would describe players and, like, he was just unbelievable.

And he was one of my.

You talk about the lists.

He was my guy.

You know, my 10 years of coaching Division 1, I would.

I would print out his list and I'd say, hey, Norm, you got these six guys at.

In that are six, four to six, six.

And you have them rated this.

And he would tell me about all of them.

Then I would go and dive in.

But guys like that, you know, Adam Finkelstein, he was still doing that at the time, and.

And just having conversations with these guys.

And this is what all.

This is all you talk about.

You know, what do you think about the kid from St. Anthony?

What do you think about the kid from Roman Catholic or Gonzaga?

And at the hoop group, there's 12 guys, and they're all comparing and contrasting and arguing about these guys.

So it's constantly on your mind.

But it's really.

It is hard to project certain kids, you know, especially like, the really talented, like, raw, athletic kids when they're in, like, 9th and 10th grade, when someone who's been around so long is like, oh, that kid's gonna play in the Big Ten.

And you're like, what?

And there's a lot of guys out there that have been doing it for 20, 30, 40 years.

That pretty on the money with that.

Yeah.

I do think that one of the things that.

I guess in some ways I can understand it.

In other ways, I always find it amazing that guys can identify talent, yet at the same time, I always think that.

And again, not that I've ever run a scouting service or done anything close to what you're doing, but it's one of those things where you walk into a gym and you just can watch a game.

And I think if you know basketball, you can be like, well, that kid.

That kid's a basketball player.

And maybe I don't understand exactly what level he can be a basketball player at, but you can watch a game and be like, okay, that kid hasn't.

The average person walks in, right, and is looking for the kid that scores 10 points or 15 points or 20 points in the 10 minutes that they watch.

Whereas you or I are watching just looking at their IQ and just the feel that they have for the game and all those kinds of things.

I think if you're a basketball person, like, you can sense that.

But what I always have a.

Always wonder about is, man, I look at a kid and I'm like, okay, this kid obviously can play in the game that I'm watching him play in.

But then how does that translate?

Does that translate to him being a, a high level Division 3 player?

Is he, is he a D2?

Is he a mid major D1?

How does that all translate?

I think that's the thing.

Whenever I talk to somebody that has done what you did in terms of evaluating, that's the piece of it that always is interesting to me is how do you figure out the level?

Like, clearly the kid can play, but how do you figure out the level?

And then like what you said is a whole nother level of figuring that out.

Where here's a kid who's in 9th or 10th grade who is super raw, maybe doesn't have the basketball skill, but you look at their body and just their athleticism and somebody can project the fact that, hey, this kid can take it to the next level.

I'm always kind of amazed by that.

Yeah, I, I agree.

I, I, I did have a time where I was pretty darn good at it, like 10, 12 years ago.

Now, I'll be honest with you.

Like I, I tell the coaches with what I'm doing now, it's like, I'm not really sure, but I think you should take a look at them.

That's what I say.

Because like, like a really, like a really good D3 prospect, like some of the Ivies might be looking at, like if they're high academic, like those kids that go to Tufts and Williams and NYU and they're, they're not that far off, the kids going to the Ivy League.

So to make those, like, I think that's one of the hardest ones.

And then like the D2 level is, is so good and people have no idea how good it is.

Like the Sunshine State Conference in Florida, like, forget about it.

I mean, it's basically Division one, you know, and that, that's a whole nother bowl of wax too, where, like there's some D2 leagues that could be better than D1, there's some D3 leagues that could be better than all, like a D2 league.

And so that's, that's a whole thing that it is, hurts the common person with their knowledge, you know, of the recruiting.

Yeah, there's no doubt.

I think when I, that's when I always think about this piece of it, I think about education, right?

Education of the parents and education of the players in terms of how good you have to be to play college basketball at any level.

Like, people don't understand.

You go and you watch like a seventh, eighth, ninth, Grade game.

And you listen to the conversations of parents who are sitting in the stands, and they have no concept at all of.

They're like, well, who's that school?

Or, what's that school?

Or, why is that school over there watching them?

And they, you know, It's a Division 3 or Division 2 school that isn't on TV that they'd never heard of.

And they're like, oh, come on, you know, like what?

I'm like, do you have any idea, like, how good the players are that play at those places?

Like, you have no clue.

Like, your kid would be doing cartwheels if they eventually had the opportunity to play at any level.

And I just think that the average person has no idea.

I know when I first started doing the podcast, Kevin, I used to ask Division 3 coaches, I'm like, when you're recruiting a kid, how many kids do you talk to that when you ask them, have you ever seen a Division 3 basketball game?

What percentage of those kids say, I've actually seen a game?

And a lot of guys would be like, it's like 75% of the players that are being recruited by a Division 3 school that have never even seen.

Yeah.

A Division 3 game, they have no idea how good those players are.

No, it's.

It's like, yeah, the Division 3 thing, it, to me, like, what people perceive of it is almost a joke because they think it's like rec ball.

They think like, oh, it's Division 3.

It's not that serious.

And, you know, I'm doing this recruiting consulting now, which I'm sure we'll talk about at some point, but I've.

I've had.

I've had a lot of kids go on visits.

That's what I try to get them to do in the fall.

I want you to go D3 practices and games.

And I had.

I had a dad.

I spoke with him today, and he was like, you were right, man.

He's like, every possession, there's blood in the water.

These guys are trying to kill each other.

I said, yeah, I told you.

I said.

I said, when your son goes back and plays his high school game this year, they won't.

They won't.

Their best possession of physicality and how hard they played and how fast they were won't even be close to the worst possession in that game.

You just saw when you watch Susquehanna play York.

And they just don't.

They don't understand, you know, and.

And Division 3, I think after the Portal and the Nil and all that stuff, I think Division 3, from what I'm gathering, is better today than it was five years ago.

I do think that there's a lot of guys that potentially might have been scholarship players five years ago are not getting scholarships and consequently are ending up at Division 3 schools.

And I think the other thing that Division 3 has a big advantage over the other levels at this moment right now is, is that, yeah, the Portal is kind of always right.

It's almost always been there for Division 3.

Like you could leave and leave one Division 3 school, go play at another Division 3 school.

So it's kind of always been there.

But I think that now when you're looking at it, Division 3 is really the only level where you can kind of go through the old school program building process that everybody used to go through.

Right?

Like, yeah, used to be, used to be you could get a recruiting class and be like, hey, these guys are gonna be really good when they're juniors and seniors.

And now if you're a Division 2 or Division 3, like, that's, I mean, that's, that's not happening.

It's, it's, it's a year to year process.

Whereas at Division 3 you can still bring in a kid as a freshman and think, well, maybe he's not ready to contribute now.

But again, talking like we did a minute ago about a kid who has potential, somebody's going to develop, and by the time they're a junior, a senior, now, suddenly that kid can be an integral part of what can be a really good team.

And I think that adds to the quality of play, just the continuity that you don't see at the other levels of college basketball right now.

Yeah, no, I, I, I definitely agree with that.

There are some cases where D3 guys are, you know, shooting up the portal to D2 and even D1.

But yeah, for the most part, I think that's kind of your, you're like old school, you know, development for sure.

I do have, I, I want to make sure I tell this story before I forget on this, the level of D3.

So I'm in Tampa, Florida.

That's where I live.

And I went to, two years ago, I went to Eckerd College.

My friend's the head coach at Dickinson.

His name's Al Seretti.

And he called me and he said, hey man, I'm coming down to your neck of the woods.

We're playing in like a holiday showcase or tournament.

I was like, oh, cool.

So I was like, man, I'll come see you play.

So they played at Eckerd College.

Nice.

You know, Division 2 school, small gym.

So I, you know, sat right in the front, which is where you want to sit and just see everything that's going on.

So they played Nazareth College, who have an unbelievable coach, so, like, really good coaches.

And I hadn't seen a college game in like three years because I got out of college basketball and kind of stepped away.

But the last game I had ever seen was I was coaching in the Mac Conference, Division 1.

And when I watched this Division 3 game, I was like, oh, my gosh, I did not realize this.

Fast, strong, physical, like, it was crazy.

And my one.

I don't have a whole lot of name drop stories, but this is a name drop now.

So Jeff Van Gundy was at the game because he's a Nazareth alumni.

And I'm.

I'm pretty sure I don't want to give you any false advertising, but I think he's like in the hall of Fame, maybe at Nazareth or was a good player there.

And I was like, that's Jeff Van Gundy.

I'm just gonna go talk to him.

So I talked to him after the game because I knew I had to, you know, talk to Jeff Van Gundy because he's like a basketball prodigy.

So I.

He was the nicest guy.

I talked to him for like 15 minutes and I was like, you know, what do you think about that game?

He goes.

He goes, I think if I was on the team, I would have a jersey, but I'm pretty sure I would never get into that game.

He goes, that's how good that game was.

And he was, he was right.

Like, it's just like, it's like 2 inches at this position, 2 inches at that position.

Maybe 10 pounds of muscle at a certain position.

And then a little bit is like the quick twitch from a point guard or something, the difference between this low Division one and Division three.

But like, man, it's, it's high level and, you know, only there's over 5 million high school basketball players in the country every year, and only 1.6% play Division 3.

So I think that tells you how good you have to be to play in college.

It really does.

And I think you make a really good point in terms of just the, the slightest of differences.

Right?

In terms of.

And most often it's just the physical tools, right.

That set a Division 1 player apart from a Division 3 player.

I've had the opportunity to watch either my son's team or some other teams just watching during the process of his recruitment or Just going to games and seeing some Division 3 schools play against some Division 1 schools and seeing the kids who are the high level Division 3 players going against the Division 1 guys.

And when you watch them, you, you see that the skill level of the best players in Division 3 is oftentimes equal to or better than the Division 1 player.

And the difference is just the Division 3 guard is 5, 10 and weighs 160 pounds.

In the Division 1 guard is 6, 4, 2, 10.

And the skill level is very similar, but just the athleticism and the size sets him apart.

But it's just very interesting to, to watch and as you said, I've had the opportunity to go and watch my son's team play all of last year and then through four games this year and just to be able to see, like you said, the physicality and the effort and the skill level and just the, the competitiveness of those games.

And I think people, just, people take it for granted.

People who are not yet to the college level as players, parents, and even some coaches, I don't think they necessarily understand, think of the AAU coaches, they don't understand how good that level of basketball is in any way, shape or form.

My go to statement is always, you have no idea how good you have to be to play college basketball at any level.

That's just, that's my, that's my go to statement.

Whenever anybody says something to me about who's recruiting them or who they want to be recruited by, I'm like, look, if somebody's recruiting you, take it as a compliment, man, and get, get an opportunity to play for four more years wherever you can, wherever you can do it.

Yeah, yeah, it's like the whole levels thing and kids not understanding levels and think they're a level higher than they are.

And it's, it's kind of like what, what am I missing here?

Like these 3D3 schools are recruiting you, they call you once a week, you want to play Division 2.

You've never hear those people keep, keep waiting and you're just going to miss out on, you know, could be an unbelievable opportunity.

And that's, that's my, I mean, well, you're, you're, I guess you're bold too.

But that's probably why I don't have any hair.

That's why I don't have any hair because, you know, just trying to educate, you know, student athletes, parents, whatever, on just the levels and how good things are and that's kind of like my full time job now, which I enjoy it but just, it's just so, so hard to.

It's so hard to explain to someone that has never, like you said, has never seen it or doesn't understand it and it's your whole life.

You know, like, for me, I was part of like.

Like four or five hundred college games.

You know, I sat in the front row as a player and assistant coach.

Like, I have a decent idea, you know, so you watch, you watch some like, you know, you go to ESPN plus and you watch a quote unquote low major game and you think you can play in that game.

You're not even paying attention to how great the passing is, right?

Like, just like you watch a high school game, they don't throw passes like that.

You watch a college game, the ball's going side to side.

It always lands in the guy's hand who throws it.

They snap the pass, and then the help's always, you know, the defense is always moving at the same time, and they're so good that the regular trained eye, they can't even, they get confused.

Like, they can't even tell how good they are.

But it's, it, it, it's really hard to explain, but I'm hoping you're picking up what I'm putting down.

No, it is.

And I'll give you a personal example.

Just thinking about my son who's now a sophomore in college, and I look at where he is today as a player.

Like, I watch him on the court in his sophomore year playing Division 3 basketball, and I watch the way he plays, how much more under control he is of what he's doing on the floor, how much harder he plays.

And he always played hard, but just again, how much that has even gone up another level and the skill that he plays with and just the physicality and all the things that you were talking about, just, I don't think we had any idea when he was in high school of what that was going to take in order for him to be able to get an opportunity to get on the floor at the college level.

And again, it's a, it's a process of just improving yourself and working and, and being in that environment every single day.

You either rise up to meet that, or again, some kids fall away.

And, and so often, again, people just, they just don't.

They just don't have any idea.

And that's what it comes down to.

They don't understand how good those levels are because again, they're just not exposed to it.

Right?

You only see, you only see what's on tv and then therefore you watch it and you're like, oh, if, if, let's put this way.

If you're used to watching NBA Games or Top 25 Division 1 college basketball games and that's your only frame of reference for what basketball looks like, then sure, maybe if you watch a Division 3 game compared to an NBA game, it looks a little bit slower and the players don't look quite as skilled.

Right.

If that's what you're used to seeing on tv.

But if you go watch it in person or you see a player that plays at that level, or that player that plays at that level shows up in your high school gym.

Guess what?

Guess what, kids?

Probably gonna, kid's probably gonna dominate.

Or if you try to step on the floor as a high school player at a Division 3 school, you're probably not going to do the things that you think you're going to be able to do at that, at that level, for sure.

So.

All right, that being said, tell me a little bit about your experience as a Division 1 assistant as you move on from hoop group and what it was like for you at Holy Cross and Marist.

Yeah, was, it was great.

I mean, I worked for a lot of different guys, you know, for different circumstances, coaching changes and things like that.

But I started out at Holy Cross and I worked for Milan Brown.

He, he's the guy that hired me to get into the Division 1 coaching.

He's now the associate head coach at Pitt.

So he's, you know, he ended up.

You know, there was a coaching change.

He ended up out at Holy Cross and he ended up going to the College of Charleston for a couple years and then went to like back to back NCAA tournaments.

They had two guys that I think played in the NBA, two backcourt guys, and then he ended up at Pittsburgh, which was pretty cool because Coach Brown was Coach Capel, senior's assistant at Old Dominion.

So it's pretty cool how all that stuff works together.

But yeah, I worked for him and, and I, I to this day say he's, he's probably the best human being in college basketball.

He's just an unbelievable person.

Great guy, great coach.

And at the time at Holy Cross, like, he just, all the guys like you talk about, you talk about a team where the players wanted to play for the, the coach and it was that team.

And the first year I was there, we won 20 games.

So I thought, man, coaching is pretty darn easy.

You know, we had, we had a senior center who, he's still playing pro to this day, and I think he's in Germany.

And he was, like, a 6, 7 center that had every move and every counter, and no one could block his shot, and then he could hit threes.

Then we had another kid, Malcolm Miller, who was a junior, who played for the Raptors, who won an NBA championship in 2019.

So we had those two guys on our team, and we had other guys that were all conference, so we were good.

So, you know, my experience was the first game I ever coached was at the Boston Garden.

I coached against Harvard.

So, like, I remember, like, texting my.

My parents, and I'm like, hey, just seeing.

I'm going to the Boston Garden today to coach against Harvard in my first Division 1 college game.

And.

And, you know, coming back to your Carolina memory, we went Harvard, we lost.

Then we came home, we played Sacred Heart.

You.

I'm almost certain the score was.

Was 122 to 118 and, like, three overtimes.

So we won.

We ended up getting home from that game at, like, it was home.

But we got home at, like, midnight, one in the morning, and then we left at 5 in the morning to go to the Boston airport, and we flew down to Raleigh.

We played North Carolina, like, a day or two later.

And so that was my third game against North Carolina on espnu.

So I'm thinking, man, this is just like Hollywood, you know?

And we ended up.

We were tied with North Carolina with, like, a minute and a half to go.

And then you're a Carolina guy, so you'll know the name is.

Was the lefty Marcus Page.

Is that his name?

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, Yep, yeah.

Yep.

Yeah.

So they set, like, two flare screens for him late, and he buried him two in a row.

But, like, we literally were, like, right there.

It was tied at halftime, so it was really fun.

Good year.

We won 20 games.

We lost in the semifinals in the Patriot League.

We played in the CIT.

We.

We won our first game.

We lost the second one to Yale.

They had a 6, 7 kid that banked one off the backboard.

I think we were up one.

So that.

That was year one.

20 wins.

What a piece of cake this profession is, you know?

And then the next year.

The next year, we lose the kid.

His name.

His name was Dave Dzinski.

He graduated, and we had everyone back, and we just thought we were going to be great.

And unfortunately, we just had these injuries.

Like, we never had the same starting lineup, like, throughout the whole year.

And we ended up being, like, 8 and 10 in the league, which was, like, eighth place, and 10 and 8 was fourth place.

So that's how close the league was.

And like I said, they made a coaching change.

And.

So, you know, the rest of the staff, unfortunately, you know, you know, had to head out of town.

I was kind of fortunate because the new guy that came in wanted to keep someone.

And he was from Spring Lake Heights in New Jersey, where the hoop group is.

And I knew his brother, so Bill Carmody, his name was.

He was a head coach at Princeton, Northwestern, and then he was at Northwestern for like, 13 years.

He got let go there and was like.

There was like a year off and.

And they hired him at.

At Holy Cross.

And he kept me.

He never told me he was keeping me either, by the way, still to this day.

So I was in.

I was in limbo the whole year trying to figure out if I was still employed or not.

But the checks came.

The checks came every two weeks.

And we had the worst season that probably anyone's ever had.

We finished in ninth out of 10th place.

And we were 10 and 15.

No, no, we were 10 and 19 at the end of the regular season.

And it was the worst year.

And it was kids that were talented.

They were trying to get used to running the Princeton offense.

They were trying to get used to playing the 13 1.

And after 29 games, we were 10 and 29.

Two weeks later, we were cutting down.

Two weeks later, we were cutting down the nets.

We won the first four game in the NCAA tournament.

We beat Southern in the first four.

And that.

That next night we flew out and played Oregon, who was the.

The overall number one seed.

I think we lost by a hundred.

But they had.

They had Dylan Brooks.

They had Dylan Brooks, Chris Boucher, both NBA guys.

They had another guy that played in the NBA as well.

So, yeah, that was really, really good.

Really, really fun times.

And then I kind of.

I bounced over, around to, you know, NJIT and Loyola in Baltimore, just for a year each.

And then I was fortunate enough to.

My boss was let go at Loyola, and then I was fortunate enough to get hired by John Dunn at Marist.

I was with him for four years.

And Coach Dunn was the head coach of St. Peter's for a long time, and he was an assistant at Seton Hall.

Unbelievable.

Coach, if you ever want to learn anything about defense, try to go see his team's practice, especially in, like, September or October.

And it's literally a defensive clinic.

I remember, like, when I first started with him, I couldn't believe, like, all the things he would see all the things he remembered, he knew what was going to happen here.

It was unbelievable.

And he's literally.

He's a defensive savant.

And the one thing I always say about him is everyone's like, oh, he's a defensive coach.

He's a defensive coach.

And I would say, yeah, that's where it all starts.

But he's just as good as offense because he's so good at defense.

He knows what the hell's going on in every offense that any coach has ever run.

So he's good at both.

I always am amazed by guys that have that ability, like you talked about, to.

To see things and pick things out and know I can watch an entire play and I know exactly where the breakdown was and is.

And there's some guys that just have that photographic memory, for lack of a better way of saying it, or just their ability to immediately diagnose things.

I don't think everybody has that.

Oh, yeah, no.

Talk about photographic memory.

Like, he would say, did you see.

Did you see the point guard from Iona turn it over?

There was like 13, 17 on the clock in the second half.

He was bringing it over half court and there was a trap.

And I'm like, yeah, that was.

When was.

When was it?

I was like, two weeks ago.

Oh, my God.

It's amazing.

It's funny that you say that, because I have a guy that I coached with, so I was a high school varsity assistant coach for, like, the first, I don't know, 12, 13 years of my career.

And the guy who I worked for as my head coach, the best coaches I've ever been around, always had our teams super prepared.

And I think in all the time I coach them, I don't think we ever lost a game that we, that we should have.

That we should have won.

But anyway, he was one of those guys that just would remember, he'd be like, hey, do you remember that game against whatever four years ago, and it was in overtime and we had the ball and they got the steal and then we came down and blocked the shot and then we got fouled on the rebound and it was a one and one.

And yeah, I'm like, yeah, I'm like, I'm like, I have no rec.

I don't even remember the game, let alone that the specifics of the play that, that he's talking about.

And sometimes I, you know, I would look at him, I'd be like, are you just making this up?

Like, is this just complete.

Like, if I went back and looked at the film, like, is any of this even true because he'd have so many, he'd have, he'd have so many details.

But I think there are just some people that have that ability to recall that stuff that I certainly don't have.

Yeah, I know, it's, it's amazing.

And I mean, there's a reason that guy's successful.

I think he's been a Division 1 head coach for over 20 years.

It's like two or three years ago, all of Division 1.

You know, the defense is ranked and I don't know what, what effective field goal percentage or whatever, I, I, I forget what category it was, but I think it was overall some type of defensive.

Houston.

Houston was number one in the country and Maris College was number two.

I mean, so that tells you what you know, right?

Let's get into what you're doing now with real hoops.

Tell me a little bit about how you got it started, why you got it started, and what it is that you do on a day to day basis now.

Yeah, so, yeah, I got out of college coaching like three years ago.

I was just trying to, you know, I made, made a big life change and you know, it was, was actually, you know, dealing with some, some mental health issues too, which, you know, I think I don't mind sharing because I think people go through that.

So I just kind of totally got out of basketball and was like, start this new life or whatever and I'm just gonna do a regular job.

So I started doing that like the quote unquote, real world.

But the whole time, like basketball is kind of like, you know, hit me on the shoulder like, hey, there's still, there's still things you can do.

And so like, I remember I, I had, you know, my son was, I don't know, three, and then my daughter was like six months and I was just walking him through this park around where we live and it was a nice time of the year.

And so this guy was teaching these kids how to play basketball and I was like, oh my gosh, I can't believe what that guy's teaching these kids.

And I'm watching the kids, I'm watching the kids and I'm like, they're pretty good, like sixth, seventh, eighth graders.

They're talented, skilled, they're good.

And everything this guy was teaching them was not relevant, not translatable.

So I remember like waiting until the trainer left and I just went and talked to the parents for a little bit and I literally like grabbed their numbers and I kept in touch with them and I said, hey, if you want, come back next week and, you know, the four or five kids, I'll do, you know, workout with them.

And, you know, so I started doing it a little bit here and there, just on the side.

And.

And then I got this bright idea.

Well, all these other guys, they're doing all this stuff that's not even real.

And I'm.

My stuff's real.

It's real hoops or whatever.

So I just say I call it real hoops.

And then.

So the.

The original master plan was to be this guy that was a trainer and taught kids how to play.

And so I started doing that for a couple months, and I basically went out of business because they didn't want to jump, stop, and pivot, you know, so everything I was trying to teach that if they're good enough to play in college, I'll actually find out is the reality of it.

It does.

It doesn't fly.

So.

So that was, like, one of the first things.

And then a company called College Athlete Advantage got in touch with me, or vice versa, and they have a guy, Steve Schaefer.

I don't know if you know him, but he's Steve.

Yeah.

Yeah, he's.

He's unbelievable.

He's great.

So he's running the recruiting side of.

Or the men's side of the recruiting at College Athlete Advantage.

So they.

They picked me up to do, you know, recruiting, advising on the.

On the side.

And I really enjoyed it.

I liked it.

And then Steve left.

He started his own company, and he's doing really well.

And then I just kind of was like, yeah, I think I'm gonna see if I can do this as well.

So we.

We started hitting the ground running, you know, like 15 months ago, and begin building clients and just helping them through the recruiting process and advising and telling them what camps to go to, what camps not to go to.

Here's where you can be seen.

Hey, if you go to this camp, there's going to be 30 coaches there.

I'm going to text them, let them know you're there.

Right.

I'll send them your transcripts.

I'll send them your highlights.

And just trying to get to the information.

At a quicker pace than they could by sending out, you know, emails on their own.

And one of the big things we've been doing that seems to be really popular is we do film sessions with the players that we work with.

So, you know, at the Division 1 level, you got like, four or five coaches on staff, ops guys, video guys.

So they're just constantly Pounding film of all their players after every game, Practice, scrimmage, sometimes even a one on zero workout where a guy's just working out on his own.

They film it and they break it down.

They show them, hey, your jump hook, you need to do this or your free throw, you need to do that.

So film is, is such a critical part of the game.

And at the high school level you have film sessions where you study your opponent and you might have a film session which is a recap of your team, but very rarely is there individual film sessions because no high school coach could rip and edit and analyze eight players that played in the game and do.

You can't do it.

So what we do, and I have, myself, I have another former guy that coached Division 1 for 13 years, I have some former D3 guys that do it a little bit on the side is for all the players that we work with.

We, we do film with them throughout the year.

So on average it's about eight games.

And depending on when they start.

We love to do summer league games, we love to do fall league games.

And our thing is, is like, listen, we, we can help you a little bit over time by watching your film.

And it's universal basketball.

So it's never like, what the hell is your coach telling you?

It's, it's like, okay, you, you just stood there with your knee straight when you could have went over there and boxed that guy out, right?

Or you're not in help here, is there a reason why?

Or you're standing at the wing, your teammate's driving down the slot, should you relocate to the corner.

So it's universal basketball stuff.

So we do that throughout the year, which I think is a really good way to have, you know, a relationship with them, number one.

And you're also, it's like you're a basketball tutor for them, right?

And these are things that again, high school coaches, or they might be athletic directors, they might be teachers, they just don't have the time to do it.

So we can add another, we can kind of be an extension of their, their coaching staff.

And then for the guys that are serious about playing in college, it's preparation and it's not going to be the first time that they've heard terminology.

So when they get to college, we think that some of those guys will be, you know, a little ahead of the pack.

And yeah, film development on an individual basis is just missing.

So we're, we're really excited about all the progress we've made.

And yeah, so that's That's a little bit about what we're doing right now.

How do you start that and get your first client?

What's the process for getting the word out that, hey, this is what we're offering, this is what we're doing?

And then how have you continued to sort of build your clientele as you've gone along?

Really?

Like, it's built off trust and word of mouth and referrals.

Pretty much what runs the world, right?

Business.

Why a kid goes to a school is believing in someone, trusting them, and knowing that they know what the heck they're talking about.

So a couple years ago, when I was just, like, doing it on the side, I really got into the film thing.

And I just was calling every high school and AAU coach in the country that had really good players, and I was just doing film sessions with them as, like, hey, you want to try it out?

Check it out.

And I started to catch on.

And there's a kid named Ethan Lynn from New Jersey.

He goes to Montgomery High School.

And we had a film session.

He was coming off an injury, so he was probably a little down in the dumps.

He actually had pins in his ankles, and he hadn't played in, like, six, seven months.

So we did a film session.

They kind of liked it, like, hey, can we do another one?

I was like, yeah, definitely.

And we were.

This was, like, August, and we were watching film from January, February, before he got hurt.

But it was something to keep him mentally in the game.

And, you know, I built a relationship with him.

And the dad was actually.

Actually an Olympic tennis player.

His name's Benny Lynn.

So he.

He was a.

For Indonesia, and he was.

He was in 92 in Barcelona.

So he.

He said when he played tennis for Indonesia and he got to Barcelona, he was more worried about meeting Charles Barkley than he was playing in the Olympics.

But.

But so.

So.

So Benny and I, you know, became connected.

And the reason I tell you is he was a tennis player is because he runs an international tennis recruiting agency.

So he brings people over from all over Asia, brings them over to the States, sends them to camps in the summer, helps them get recruited.

So he was like, I think, you know, what.

What I'm doing in tennis, you should do on your own, you know, And I had.

I had been doing it with CA a little bit, so I knew it was a real thing.

And then he kind of, you know, gave me the confidence.

And then he started just.

He called.

He called two of his friends in California, because he spent time in California and all of a sudden, I had seven people in California that were my clients.

And there's a.

There's a guy in Fairfield County, Connecticut, who.

Who does all the shooting up there for people.

And he's like, listen, I can fix your shot.

I can't help you get recruited.

But Kevin, Ken, Now I got 10 kids from Connecticut, and then there's two programs that I've had three consecutive kids in.

So class of 25, class of 26, class of 27.

Because I helped the kid in 25, they referred me the kid in 26, and it just kind of kept going down the ladder.

So if you look at my map of clients, it's like, it's all the way up and down the East Coast.

So you got Connecticut, New Jersey, Philly.

Well, we have one in Nashville and then Florida, and then it goes over to Texas.

So I have a handful in Texas.

And then if you go to the west coast, you got like, seven, eight kids in California and then a kid in Oregon.

So a lot of it's just, you know, the referral process.

It's hard to just make a cold call and say, hey, I want to help you get to college.

I mean, that.

That's tough.

But you also have to do the evaluation because you want to make sure that you can help them.

You don't.

You.

You don't want to take a kid who's not even close and up front, oh, yeah, I can help you.

I can help you.

And then.

Then you get to the end of the road and there's no options, because I'm not.

I'm not putting my head on the pillow at night knowing that, like, you know, we're just not doing it the right way.

How important are the relationships that you have from your time in college coaching as far as being able to reach out to.

Being able to reach out to those college coaches and, and say again, as you build your reputation and you're talking about the kids that you have that you have a pretty good feel for where they can play.

How important are those relationships that you built during your time in college basketball to this whole process?

That's.

It's.

It's the most important thing.

Like I mentioned Brit Moore earlier.

He has a kid that was with me here in Tampa training for two years, and he.

This kid's a junior for him, averaging 12 and nine.

He's a six three guard, averaging nine rebounds a game.

And it was just me telling Britt, like, hey, check this guy out.

What do you think?

And he's like, yeah, and you know, it's early but they're 3 0.

And he said the kids played a big role in it.

And so.

What, what I've learned though, as you know, doing this is not, you know, I never liked when someone was like pushy or you got to take this guy, you got to look at this guy.

He's a no brainer.

Coaches hate that.

So I think a lot of it is like, what position are you recruiting?

What are you looking for?

What's your style of play?

Kind of asking them first, you know, and then say, all right, I got two guys, can you take a look?

What do you think?

You know?

Yeah, we like him.

We don't like him.

If you don't like him, then I'm going to keep helping the kid and his family.

I'm going to go to the next guy.

You're not going to hurt my feelings.

You're not going to hurt their feelings.

We're just, we're just trying to get options.

So that, that is definitely kind of how I operate.

And you know, depending on what the kid's goals are, if he's a high academic, then we're going to explore the nescac, the UAA Liberty.

Centennial, you know, and we're going to go through those leagues and just see what, where's the match?

He just, we need a six, five wing.

Okay, cool.

Here's a kid, check him out.

What do you think?

And that's, that's kind of, it's, it's just, it's, it's just, it's just connecting people.

You know, I, I tell people all the time, I don't, I don't have some fancy computer system, I can't solve algorithms, but I can call the people that we want to get in touch with.

What advice do you have for the parents and players themselves in terms of their interaction with the coaches in schools that they're interested in beyond just you reaching out to them?

Obviously at some point they are going to talk to the coaches and go on a visitor.

So what kind of advice do you give them in terms of if they're really interested in a particular school and the school is interested in them?

How do you go about just giving them advice in terms of what they should do to make sure that they're cementing that interest so that the coaching staff knows that, hey, you're right there, you know, you're in my top three or you're the place that I really want to go.

Well, just in general, like some of the things I, some Of the things I talk to everyone about, first and foremost is it's, it's your son's journey.

He's the lead singer, you're the backup singer.

They want to recruit him.

But while they're recruiting you, while they're recruiting him, they're also recruiting you.

So like, if you, if you just are acting wild or saying crazy things, like that's going to really resonate with them.

I mean, I can't tell you how many times I was an assistant coach and I would call someone and ask about the parents.

People ask me about the parents.

I mean, it's, it's, it's a deciding factor, you know, so that's one of the first things.

Also in preparation, talking to these student athletes is like, if I ask a kid like, how many points did you average last year?

We're like 17.2.

I'll say, what's your GPA?

What's your GPA?

I'll be like.

Like three.

I go, no, I go, you're going to this, you're going to go visit this college.

You better know that you have a 3.62.

You've taken four honors.

Here's where you had it.

You had a C in 9th grade.

Tell him about it.

And you have to be able to speak like that, you know, and you have to, like, you have to know what's going on, right?

Like, they're gonna draw a play up in two years and they're gonna ask you to execute this play.

They want to see a guy that knows what the heck's going on, that carries his head on his shoulders and things like that.

So, you know, we, we kind of just talked to him about that whole thing.

And the other thing I tell their parents and I said, listen, every person I've ever worked with, I'm working with the hardest working kid that's ever played basketball.

Do you realize that every time I talk to someone, the person I talk to their child is the hardest working kid ever, Right?

So I just, I tell them that, I said, you don't.

You can spare that.

You can save it.

Like, the coach has already heard that 17, 000 times.

Let it go, you know?

Yeah, so that, those are some of the things you kind of just try to educate the people on.

But you know, they, they want to know, how should I follow up with a text or an email, what should I wear?

You know, all these things.

And they're good questions and they're things that I used to just take for granted.

But being on the other side now to know you can help some people out with just things like that is, is really, you know, it's, it's fun to do.

What are some turn offs when you think about yourself?

When you were recruiting, you mentioned one if the parents are acting crazy.

But what are some turn offs that you tell people, hey, you got to avoid or you got to tell a player, hey, avoid doing these things that's going to turn somebody off.

Yeah, I, I mean, I remember one time at Holy Cross, we were on an official visit and I mean this is 10 years ago, so it wasn't as bad as it is now, but a kid was just like on his phone the whole time.

It was like, it's like a twelve hundred dollar official visit steakhouse.

And it's like this dude's on his phone.

Like, you know, you have to, you have to have a personality.

You have to talk.

You know, you don't, you don't have to be the most eloquent person, but you have to show these people that you're interested, you care.

And again, you can speak like you're more than just a basketball player.

You know.

You know, the character thing is really, you know, you were saying it earlier about kids playing hard and things like that.

Like there, there's this mold of kid, let's just use the Division 3 level, like a dime a dozen mold, right?

So when I call a college coach and it's a 6:1 combo guard, he can get, he can get a 6:1 combo anytime he wants, anywhere he wants.

So if he want, he'll, he'll get one on March 15, right.

So when you're in that category of player, like having good character, playing hard, being a good communicator, like you have to be a class act and it's part of it because you're just gonna, you're just gonna get crossed off the list if you're not, if you don't totally have your head on your shoulders the right way.

It's funny that you say that because so My son is 6 6, and I would always have this conversation with him like, dude, you're so lucky that you're six six, because you're gonna get a second and a third and a fourth look from people because there just aren't that many guys out there that are 6 6.

Conversely, look at a couple of your teammates who are fought between 59 and 5 11, white guys who shoot the ball pretty good.

Look at how many of those kids there are at this AAU tournament with 50 courts.

I mean, you could just start throwing.

You just start throwing darts out at people with your eyes closed, and you're going to hit a million of those kids.

And I think that, you know, you make a really good point that if you're in that category, which, let's face it, a lot of people are, right?

So you got to do some things.

You got to do some things to be able to.

To stand out.

And I think that the other thing that you talked about there is just being able to have a conversation with people.

And I found that, like with my own son, to be in a critical part of his recruitment, right, Is that he was able to, over the course of time.

Build relationships with the coaches that were recruiting him by talking on the phone, by having conversations in person.

When they showed up for an AAU tournament or when they showed up for one of his high school games, you could stop and like me as a parent, I could walk away from that conversation and leave him with the head coach knowing that he was going to be able to handle having an adult conversation.

And I think when I look at the process that we went through, I think his ability to have those conversations was a big part of what enable them to have, you know, a few schools that ended up giving him the ability to make a choice about where he went to school.

And, And I see a lot of kids who.

That I talk to, and you get three words out of them, and then they got their head down or they're walking away, or they don't know what to say.

And it's.

It's rare today because again, so much of the kids communication, right?

Is this.

Right.

They're even, even with their friends, right?

They're just.

It's just.

It's just.

They're just texting and they're not.

And they're not talking.

And there's so few kids that ever have a conversation with an adult.

Yeah, I. I agree.

And.

And it even like shows up on the court.

So myself and a guy, Chris Kavinsky, he's down here in Tampa.

He.

He's.

I referred to him earlier.

So he coached at old Dominion for 13 years.

He was under Jeff Jones, who's, you know, you know, obviously a great coach, old school guy.

And Chris is like.

Chris is an amazing on the court guy.

Like, he's unbelievable.

So he, he works guys out, you know, every day, you know, three to five kids, seventh grade to pros, like every.

Every age group.

And then we do different workouts together on Sundays.

We actually call it SOS shooting on Sundays because we always Say that during the season.

During the season you don't get to shoot a lot.

So let's sos.

Let's save your shot on Sunday.

But we'll explain something and, and we'll, we'll.

We'll transition from one drill to the next.

And just the amount of like, just like, like, you know, and it's like, so, so we'll get, so we'll.

Chris and I'll get so frustrated.

Like, you guys want us to text you what we're saying?

Do you want us to DM you?

Or maybe put it on tick tocks so you understand.

But it's a shame.

Like, listen, we're all on our phones and, you know, I have to do it for work all the time too.

And it's just, it's a shame with the kids.

You'd like to, you'd like to see them, you know, not be so reliant on those things and have some conversations.

For sure.

Coach is also one of the deciding factors too, is like, oh, that kid wants to be here.

And sometimes that plays a part in recruiting, too.

Yeah, I think that's a huge piece of it, right?

Because I think, especially to me, especially at the Division 3 level.

Right.

Because so much of being a Division 3 coach, if you want to be successful, you're trying to recruit kids who maybe can get a scholarship somewhere.

And so if you're a kid and like, again, I'll use a personal example with my son.

Like I told him probably from the time he was in 10th grade, look, if you're going to play college basketball, I feel like you're going to be a Division 3 college basketball player.

That's where I think your skill level and where you're at, that's what you should be shooting for.

And so when we started, when I started trying to help him and figure it out, we just started targeting schools that we felt like were a good fit for him academically and a good fit for him basketball wise.

And then we made it clear to the schools that we reached out to that we're interested in coming to your school, and that's why we're contacting you.

And you're.

You're in our top three or you're in our top five or whatever it might be.

And, and I do think that that made a big difference that there was then.

Those coaches now know any time we put into this kid, we're not necessarily wasting.

We're not wasting our time.

We know we have a legitimate chance at having this kid come to our school.

And I do think that that helped.

And of course, there's always a little bit of game of a cat and mouse there, right.

Because we all know that the coaches are recruiting more than just the one kid, and we know the kid is probably talking to more than just one school.

So there's a little bit of back and forth there.

But I think for the most part, right, if you're, if it's a place that you're really considering that you really want to go to, I think it's great advice to say, don't be afraid to say, hey, I really, I really want to come here.

And I think that that helps coaches to see and, and it's just like the go, it's the advice that players always get is, right, go somewhere where you're wanted.

Well, I think it also works in reverse, right?

Coaches are going to go recruit kids who, who want to be at their school as opposed to somebody they're trying to beg to, to come through the door.

100.

Yeah, I totally agree.

All right, so when you think about where you are right now with real hoops and kind of where you started.

Where do you want to go or where do you see this going, moving forward?

How, how is your vision of what you saw it becoming or what you're seeing it become?

What do you think it's going to happen with it in the future?

I, I, I've, you know, been in this recruiting space for probably two years, you know, part time, full time.

I'm over a little over a year full time now.

So I'm like, at the reflection of, like, trying.

It's like coaching.

Like, how many mistakes did you make?

Like, how do you, how do you capitalize?

What can you do to improve?

So, you know, I, this is what I do full time.

I run my own business, right.

So now I am the head coach.

So I feel just as much pressure because every two weeks there's no guaranteed paycheck.

Right.

So, yeah, it's a different kind of pressure.

But yeah, I, I want to continue to elevate the business and, you know, obviously pick up more clients and then to be able to help guide them through the process.

And, you know, we'll, we'll, we'll have the whole gambit.

We had three kids that we worked with this year that committed Division 1.

We've had kids in the last few months, Johns Hopkins, Carnegie Mellon, Connecticut College, Case Western, like some, you know, great schools.

We're going to have some kids that are maybe going to play on a JV or a developmental team on Division 3.

But so we, we have the whole gambit, so I think for us is we want to continue to grow and get more clients.

We want to diversify the levels for sure.

And Division 2 is one where we don't have a whole lot of clients.

So maybe that'll be something down the pipeline.

But what we're.

One of the things we're, we're working on for moving forward is just setting up a website which we, which is launching soon, which will be called Real Hoop Recruit, which is different than Real Hoops, but, but that's part of the evolution.

And what we're trying to do there is have a monthly newsletter and just give people insight on this whole recruiting process.

Updates, changes, things like that.

And then so like now it's November, like, here's some things to focus on and we're definitely targeting more of the Division 3 player for sure.

But we're going into admissions this month and financial aid, the fafsa, things like that.

And then like, how do you, how do you, what's the best way to set up your highlight video?

What should you be showing?

How do you, how do you compose an email and send to a college coach?

Is it going to be that long?

Well, guess what?

They're not going to read it.

Right.

So how do we, how do we, how do we help you get seen a little bit more?

Where should you go for camp and why?

Right.

Can we help you save money on making the right choices?

So, yeah, it's a.

We're just trying to be, we're just trying to be an advocate and a guide for people, whether it's the real personalized recruiting or just in general where they want to, you know, get a newsletter once a month and, and just learn a little bit bits and pieces.

So that, that's really the goal and the mission right now.

You know, we're running some events in the state of Florida because there's no Division 3 schools in Florida.

So we actually fly down Division 3 coaches and we run some prospect camps down here.

So that'll still be like part of the mission as well.

But you know, the camp thing is like, unfortunately it, I, I love camps, but it, it, the rest of the society doesn't love camp.

So you can't make that your, you can't make that that big of your.

In your business model.

Right?

You have to keep it small.

But yeah, we're, we're trying it.

We're trying to get some people in the Midwest.

We don't have any Midwest clients.

So if there's anyone out there in the Midwest, that.

That's part of the goal, too, because you got your map with all the pins in it.

So we got to start filling up the middle of the country.

There you go.

That sounds like a good plan.

All right, final two, part question, Kevin, Part one.

When you look ahead over the next year or two, you just kind of laid out the vision.

What do you see as being the biggest challenge?

And then the second part of the question, when you think about what you get to do every day, what brings you the most joy?

So first, your biggest challenge.

Second, your biggest joy.

My biggest challenge is just on me being organized and being a good manager and learning how to.

Learning.

Learning how to delegate.

So that's my biggest challenge.

The, The.

The landscape of college basketball might be a little bit of a challenge because the levels are now higher.

So working with kids and managing.

Managing expectations is probably, you know, the biggest challenge, no matter what.

And then you said the second part was what biggest joy?

Biggest joy?

Yeah.

I mean, as far as just this job and career, it's like when a kid calls you on the way home and says, hey, I'm going to commit to this school, and you're like, you're like, you're like, on his call list, like, that's super cool.

And then.

And then that same kid, his dad sends you screenshots and says, hey, the.

This, this, this.

This parent or this person was asking about if, you know, I should work with you.

And he said in you screenshots, like, yeah, you should work with Kevin.

He helped my son get to this school so that there's.

There's a ton of joy in that, and it gives you, you know, confidence that, you know, you are.

You are being able to provide a service.

Because, listen, at the end of the day, a lot of this stuff is just all made up, right?

I mean, like, hey, I'm gonna help you.

You know, there's.

There's no, like, rigid structure formula.

It's for sure.

It's a game.

It's a game of trust.

You know, there's a.

There's a deck with 12 slides.

And you have to believe that, you know, we can do those things for you.

And to get.

To get those people that are speaking highly of you to other people is the best.

And, and like, we had.

We had probably.

We've had about five kids, class of 20, 27, that have been on 30 campuses over the last six weeks, 30 campuses watching, practicing, watching scrimmages, watching games.

And every Sunday, when They hit you up and like, thanks for setting this up.

Like, we couldn't have done this without you.

This is great that we're meeting these coaches and getting in front of the recruiting process.

That to me is super fun.

And, and that goes back to just having all these great contacts that I made over the last 20 years.

Yeah, that's good stuff, man.

I mean, again, when you talk about being able to help somebody to live out their dream, right, and then you get that call of thanks, I think as a coach that's, there's probably nothing better than that in my career.

When I think about the guys that, that I've been able to have an impact on that reach back out to me, I mean, those are some of the most meaningful conversations, phone calls, texts, meetups that, that you can possibly have.

So couldn't agree more on that sentiment.

Before we get out, Kevin, I want to give you a chance to share.

How can people connect with you?

Find out more about what you're doing.

Share social media.

I know you already said the website that you got coming soon, but just how can people find out more about what you're doing?

Get in touch with you?

Yeah, no problem.

I'm looking at my other screen so I can see what my X handle is.

So my ex, my ex hand my handles at under underscore Kevin Driscoll.

And then the, the new website that we're launching is going to be called Real Hoop Recruit.

No S. So Real Hoops is, you know, more of the training and the basketball side.

But Real Hoop Recruit is where all the recruiting is going to now be located.

And then yeah, we're on, we're on X and Instagram Real Hoops Underscore fl which stands for Florida.

So yeah, I appreciate you sharing that.

And then my email is kevinreal-hoops.com so maybe I'll get an email out of this.

We'll see.

Easy enough.

There you go.

All right.

Kevin, cannot thank you enough for taking the time out of your schedule tonight to join us.

Really appreciate it and to everyone out there, thanks for listening and we will catch you on our next episode.

Thanks.

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The Coaching Portfolio Guide is an instructional membership based website that helps you develop a personalized portfolio.

Each section of the Portfolio guide provides detailed instructions on how to organize your portfolio in a professional manner.

The guide also provides sample documents for each section of your portfolio that you can copy, modify and add to your personal portfolio.

As a Whoppheads POD listener, you can get your coaching portfolio Guide for just $25.

Visit coachingportfolioguide.com hoop heads to learn more.

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Sam.